So you think you are OUT?

[Sara Jessica]

(editor's note: What this thread is not? It's not intended to be about the virtues of being in the closet. Nor is it intended to be pro - "out & about". Read on for the deeper meaning...)

Those who know me, that is who know "Sara", whether in the real world or in these pages, may think that being a woman about the town, that I am what might be described as "out". The truth though is much more complicated.

Fact of the matter is while I am "out" to the love of my life (my soulmate, my wife), I am not "out" to anyone else in my personal life. Family, friends, people I work with, no one knows of this side of me. More on that later though.

When I go out, I have a circle around all things I hold dear that for the most part, Sara makes no appearances within. I guess by definition, that makes me a closet dweller, correct?

Expanding on a couple points, first I want to list those things I've done or places I've gone within my "circle". Any or all of these things can be called reckless, things that risk my closet status to different degrees.


Electrolysis appointments.
Hair salon visits. *
Nail salon visits. *
More clothes shopping than I can count, particularly at Macy's.
Plus lots of shoe shopping.
Trips to VS, buying whatever I please.
Scouring the likes of Ross, TJ Maxx, etc. for deals on things such as pantyhose.
My fav boutique is well within this circle. *
Buying skin care or makeup at department store counters.
At times, returning any of the above purchases.


* = have done in "girl mode"

I list these things as having done them repeatedly and unashamedly in guy mode without a care as to what anyone might think (though admittedly looking over my shoulder at times for anyone who might know me). Again, doing these things can be seen as risky or reckless to anyone wishing to maintain "closet" status. Bringing this all full circle (pun intended), there was a time not so long ago (perhaps 5+ years), when I thought my world would explode if I was to be somehow outed to family, friends and/or co-workers. Now? Not so much. I'm careful both inside my circle, less so outside of it, but far from paranoid. I play the odds based on the millions of people who reside in wonderful SoCal. Still, I have found myself humming "It's a Small World After All" on more than one occasion. The bottom line is that while I'm not so concerned with having to explain my TG nature to anyone close to me, my choices are based on an effort to shield my wife or children from having to deal with it in any public way, shape or form.

At the end of the day, we all have different motivations for what we do or how we choose to express who we are. But I dare to say that there are many out there like me,...

I'm Sara, and my "extended" closet is a fabulous place.

...many out there who guard their closet status while being as out & about as they are able.

[Pythos]

Sara, as I have mentioned, there are two areas where this side of me is not currently known.
-My mother and immediate family.
-Aviation.

That being said...there is no way that I can say I like it. I hate running under the radar. Actually I am fed up with it. I would like to just be able to wake in the morning and put on whatever I please and not worry about getting an inaccurate rep with my flying, or hear complete BS from my mother.

Those two restrictions however DO indeed limit what I do out and about, cause my mom, has all kinds of friends that know me, and I don't know what they look like.

I was out with the GG and we got sited at McDonalds. Mom chewed me out cause I wore my zippered leggings to go out that night. The snitch that told her about this neglected to say anything about the raven haired beauty next to me, wearing the same thing (her idea). LOL.

I don't want to have to go to other areas outside of my home town to have the freedom to wear what I like. There are days I just feel like stopping.

[Jorja]

Sara,
I don’t think you are still in the closet. You venture out into the big world yet you are not out to friends, family, and co-workers etc…. Maybe this places you in the beach cabana or maybe in the green room as show business calls it. :D

[Barbra P]

Hi Sara

I fully understand your position. I’m for the most part “in the closet”. My Mother doesn’t know and never will; she is 93 and in a Nursing Home, this last week when we visited she didn’t know who my Wife was and she didn’t know who I was. Just a bad day? I don’t know, my Brother said she was very confused last Sunday when he visited. I have worn flip-flops and sandals when visiting her at the Home, but she has not noticed my polished pink toes. She did notice that I had my ears pierced but her only comment was to ask if it hurt – she never had her’s pierced for fear that it would hurt.

My Brother, as far as I know, doesn’t know and I haven’t seen any reason to tell him, he is my half-brother and we only see each other a couple times a year. But the biggest obstacle is my Wife, she tolerates my dressing around the house but gets visible upset if I venture out. A few weeks ago three of the women who live on our street asked me to go walking around the neighborhood – just us girls. She told me later that was embarrassing for her. She doesn’t want me out walking the dog or going to the mall, although she is sort of tolerant of my going shopping at Avenue enfemme only because the store is sort of out of the way and she knows the store is very accepting, but she still isn’t really comfortable about it.

Even my attending NC meetings enfemme embarrasses her, but she tolerates my going because it is more or less a controlled environment. I think what embarrassed her the most last monthg was having to walk through Coco’s to get to the back room. I don’t think I’m quite ready to venture out to any of the large malls or go for a pedicure enfemme although I think many would think it odd that I’m not embarrassed having my toes painted while drab in a salon.

My Therapist asked me why I’m more comfortable dressed around women than men? But then she furnished the answer herself when she asked if I found women, on a whole, more accepting than men?

They say that many prisoners, after spending decades in prison, can’t adjust to life outside of prison and I think that we tend to be much the same. We spend so much time in the closet that we become comfortable there even though many of us long to get out of the closet we don’t feel comfortable out in the real world. While the vast majority of people go about their own lives and couldn’t care less about us, we fear the few that will take exception – we fear rejection. How many times do we have to tell ourselves that we will never see those people again and we don’t care what they think before we begin to believe that ourselves?

I have said many times on here “there is nothing wrong with being in the closet.” All but a few build their lives around safe environments, it is rather fool-hardy to do otherwise, and the closet is for the most part a safe environment. For many the closet is the only safe environment unless they wish to put their marriage, family, job and livelihood, and their loved-ones at risk. I will never fault someone for seeking safe-harbor.

[Kathi Lake]

Do I think I'm out? No. Not really. I mean, I'm out, but I'm just not out, you know? :)

Like you, I have no problem whatsoever with being out and about in male or female mode doing things the world classifies (somewhat justifiably so) as feminine - buying women's clothes, makeup, shoes (oh, the shoes! :)) and more. Also like you, I wish to shield my wife and children of the inevitable fallout that might happen if my 'little secret' were to be revealed to my closest circles - family, friends, and church. I wish to spare them the potential embarrassment of being friends with/married to one of 'those' kinds of people.

On the other hand, I do sometimes wonder what would happen. I mean, people seem to have high opinions of me (go figure, eh?). I wonder how much to the left or right of center that opinion would get knocked askew by the revelation that I'm not quite what I seem. Like Pythos, I would love to cast aside the need to hide who and what I truly am, and let them see the true me.

However, as I mentioned, I have other people to think about. Those people's happiness mean much more to me than my own. I will, therefore, maintain the status quo until it is no longer necessary. And you know what? I don't really feel too bad about that.

:)

Kathi

[SuzanneBender]

Sara you know that I am right there along side you when it comes to this. My limited coming out has caused a lot of turmoil for my wife who I dearly love. I, like you, think its best to shield those I love from the challenges we deal with because of who we are. Luckily the anonymity of the crowd allows the freedom to express ourselves without much chance of being outed if done properly. I have to stay in the shadows because of my career and I prefer to stay there in order to shield my family. I certainly do not hang out in the closet because of paranoia or shame concerning who I am.

I am proud of who I am and feel the only way for us to overcome the discrimination we receive is to get out and show the world we are wonderful human beings like most everyone else. However, I am not the Ghandi of Transgender and I do not wish to sacrifice all for this cause. I will paint the signs and carry them (doing all of those things Sara lists a safe distance from home), but I am not going on any hunger strikes anytime soon (coming out just because we feel we have to martyr our male lives to authenitcate our female selves). :daydreaming:

I wouldn't call us in the closet. I consider us more T Gal's in the plastic bubble. Not completely out but still roving around the world and interacting with it. At least the bubble doesn't smell like moth balls.:D

[PretzelGirl]

Well Sara, out is a sliding scale in my book just like transgenderism. For me, a few in the family know and some friends. Lots of SAs (one Payless SA saw me at a Subway last week, said hi, and recalled my shoe size in front of her family) :-). But I think I have ended up where I don't care about the rest. What that means is that I am not out to tell them, but if they find out, so be it. It is my life and this is how far I choose to push it.

An example happened last night. My Tri-Ess group had a night out at the ballgame en drab with family. Something so we get everyone in the family out. I get there and one of the members had her brother there. I just happen to work with her brother and father and they know about my friend and the brother knew about the group. But even though I work at the same company with the brother, we have yet to work together on anything. So my friend's wife asked if it was going to be a problem and I first said that if he remembered me when I had a cap and sunglasses on he was doing good. Then I said that while I wasn't specifically wanting to be out at work, someday someone will see me (that is my mindset anyway so there are no surprises). Not a big deal as he sat behind me and left early and we never talked.

But the point is, I either go out and not try and turn it into a secret agent thing or I stay home. I will take normal care, but after that, what happens....happens.

[Sara82]

I'm only out to one person in my life, so to Answer your question.... No im not out. Being out to me would be freedom to express my gender at work, in my community and with my family.

Im not quite there yet despite how bad i want it. I cant help but feel regret that i didnt discover myself at an earlier age be more "out" in my teens but my fears and own homophobic as well as other issues clouded me. This resulted in alot of isolation growing up.

So now im closing in on 30, and have begun the process of starting a family a career etc, and i'm torn. I feel i missed out on my best years to explore and discover myself and be more "out". Maybe its selfish and im ungreatful for what i have, but i dont want to wake up one day when im 50 and regret this life.

This sadness is horrible :(

[Nikki A.]

I guess I'm in the same boat as Sue and the rest of you. I've done much of Sara's list both en drab and dressed. Most times a little out of my circle but sometimes in the "circle". As far as work goes, I've confided to one person and needed to tell another due to an event that the three of us were going to be attending. Since I've dressed a few times for Halloween, I think that others may have a glimmer but don't really know. If it comes out so be it, just as Sue feels.
I've gone from paranoia to just not really caring if I'm found out and will continue to do what I feel I need to do.

[Debra Russell]

I think most of here are in the same boat. I go out dressed and do whatever I want and a few people know but is that "out"? -- not by a long shot -- we all know why, and for what reasons, whatever they may be -- and that's fine.............Debra

[Pythos]

Barbara,

You brought up one of the main things we contend with.

The "embarrasment" of an SO. This is an area that is I think one of the biggest obstacles we all deal with. But why is it even a factor?

For instance, my mother has stated she is embarrassed to be seen with me in one of my leggings/ tunic outfits. She says "I look like a ballet dancer" or "you look like a girl" Neither of these I consider an insult. Why should I?

But then again, why does my mother find it "embarrasing" to be seen with me in stuff I like to wear. I have never not once felt embarrassed when she went around in tennis outfits, or skirts that showed a lot of leg (runs in the family I guess. LOL). I was beaten up because of what my mom wore...cause I defended her. But my mom instead gets embarrassed when her freinds see me out and about in my preferred style. How is that for fair?

This embarrassment is once again in my opinon due to people not standing their ground. Allowing others to dictate their thoughts and actions. This is good to an extent, but I do think in our cases it is detrimental.

[AllieSF]

Sara, you perfectly described my situation, except that I have no SO at the moment, but I am always looking, trying and hoping! I call your "circle" my safe zone. I dress and go out away from that zone whenever I want and can, and like you, I shop in drab in that zone all the time as if no one will see me. Stretching the envelope, inviting recognition or just learning to live with this that we have. I like it, work it and really enjoy it. Maybe one day "it" will happen and I will be discovered. So be it. I am at the wonderful stage of life where, in general, "I just don't give a damn, Scarlet."

[kristinacd55]

Sara, I'm in and out at the moment. Started going to support meetings in Feb, and have been to a few clubs since...so listings as follows:
Wife knows, somewhat accepting but no going in public EEK!
Daughters know, now for a month but no real followup from them.....yet
Sister in law knows, and we've exchanged some very nice emails back and forth. Very encouraging
Been shopping in drab mostly, although went once with a tg girlfriend shopping enfemme. I was scared!!
Training another tg girlfriend to run a 1/2 marathon in november, (we both run in drab) those dang wigs are soooo hot to run in!
So, am I out? In comparison to December of 2010?? I'd say I am!

[TGMarla]

I'm more not out than I am out. I do venture out once in a while, but my wife is not real thrilled about this little diversion of mine, and I do my best to spare her any exposure to it. Pythos, I understand your stance on this, but you're not married, and once you marry, it changes everything. I do not wish to cause her any embarrassment or humiliation due to my wishing to crossdress. She is more important to me than my wanting to go out all the time en femme. I am content to wait until I have opportunities to do so which will not cause her any concern. It is not a matter of me standing my ground with her, either. She's my wife, and I honor her wishes as much as I am able.

Her family has been made aware that I crossdress because I got sloppy and got caught doing so by her late son, who told his idiot cousin, who told ....well, everyone. However, I'm not about to exploit that disclosure by running around en femme everywhere. It's bad enough my wife had to endure that period of rough water with me, and I'm grateful that it blew over. She and I enjoy a really good relationship right now, and I will not selfishly jeapordize it.

My brother, who I love very much, is quite closed-minded on transgender issues. I stand my ground with him on my views on these issues, however I stop short of telling him that I crossdress all the time. It's just better that way.

So no, I'm not out, even though I venture out from time to time. And I'm okay with things that way.

[Frédérique]

editor's note: What this thread is not? It's not intended to be about the virtues of being in the closet. Nor is it intended to be pro - "out & about". Read on for the deeper meaning...

Closed threads here we come! I appreciate the disclaimer, though – do you think anyone will refer to it down the road? You are what you read, or choose not to read, but I recently stated that we will revisit this “in” vs. “out” debate before the week is out. Here we go again, but this is a non-controversial topic worthy of discussion…


I'm careful both inside my circle, less so outside of it, but far from paranoid. I play the odds based on the millions of people who reside in wonderful SoCal. Still, I have found myself humming "It's a Small World After All" on more than one occasion. At the end of the day, we all have different motivations for what we do or how we choose to express who we are. But I dare to say that there are many out there like me...many out there who guard their closet status while being as out & about as they are able.

Here in Kansas, I can hum “It’s a Small-Minded World After All,” as I try to escape the thought police – I am envious of your position at the edge of America. I reside in the same “space” as you, the self-purgatory of the MtF crossdresser, and there are good reasons for staying there. “Guarding” one’s status is a good way to describe what’s going on – it took us a long time, through many tears, trials, and tribulations, to get to where we are today. Many may disagree, but it’s fun to just bask in the glow of the path less taken…


However, as I mentioned, I have other people to think about. Those people's happiness mean much more to me than my own. I will, therefore, maintain the status quo until it is no longer necessary. And you know what? I don't really feel too bad about that.

I was thinking of starting a thread about this insightful idea, since, for some of us, crossdressing requires a certain “backing-off” to accommodate the feelings of others as we endeavor to preserve all that is dear to us (in a personal sense). In my not-so-humble opinion, we MtF crossdressers fall into two main camps – those who care about others, and those who don’t. Whenever someone writes “I don’t care what others think,” or “I don’t care how you interpret my words,” or “I don’t care what your opinion is,” and that self-same person fails to recognize any ulterior motives one may have for doing what they do, it tends to support my theory. I think “I don’t care” is the worst saying in the English language, and, if I may say so, it is used carelessly and inappropriately way too often. I’m happy to say I CARE about these “other people” that Kathi is referring to – not to do so would be catastrophic in the extreme for all concerned…


I do not wish to cause her any embarrassment or humiliation due to my wishing to crossdress. She is more important to me than my wanting to go out all the time en femme. I am content to wait until I have opportunities to do so which will not cause her any concern. It is not a matter of me standing my ground with her, either. She's my wife, and I honor her wishes as much as I am able.

An excellent explanation – sacrifices must be made if we are to enjoy the fruits of our femme labor, and some things are “greater than this.” I admire those who tuck away this tendency to “stand” one’s ground and be more passive for the sake of a relationship. After all, why are we dressing in the first place if it does not involve shedding at least a small part of our male-ness? Embarrassing others only embarrasses us, and humiliation is soon to follow. A little forethought goes a long way, all in the pursuit of true happiness…

Speaking of admiration, it’s not everyday that I get to quote three iconic CD “figures” within the same post! :)

[Alice B]

There is much to what you say that is very well stated and that applies to me also. But, in my case all my family knows, except my mother-in-law. Before last year I had not done many of the things you listed, but since then I done almost all. Both in male and female mode, with the latter being done by your example and encouragement. Especially at DLV. In my male part I participate in a macho type world. The closet is very deep and dark. Away from that it is wide open and full of light. A delicate balance that I have managed to establish, maintain and am comfortable with.

My relationship with my wife is also the most important thing in my life and her acceptance, in a non participating way, is of vital importance. I must always be carefull not to cause her embarsement or push the envelope too hard. If I step over the line she is quick to tell me and I just as quickly styep back. Yet I am still able to be Alice, both at home and going out on occasion. I appreciate your post and look forward to meeting with you again in the near future. It's nice to have a big closet.

[StevieTV]

I'm out to many people but still don't show up unannounced in fem mode. I've spoken to my mother about wearing pantyhose and she told why not? I've come for Christmas wearing womens red leather pants and my sister told me I shouldn't wear them around her kids. I tend to dress a tad on the fem side and have found if I mix and match there's no problem with acceptance.

[Sara Jessica]

I better respond now with a little :2c: before this thing gets too big to get my head around...


I hate running under the radar. Actually I am fed up with it. I would like to just be able to wake in the morning and put on whatever I please and not worry about getting an inaccurate rep with my flying, or hear complete BS from my mother.

Such is the world many, if not most of us live in.


I don't want to have to go to other areas outside of my home town to have the freedom to wear what I like. There are days I just feel like stopping.

When I first read this I thought you said "there are days I just feel like "shopping" to which I'd reply this is why many of us push the envelop within our circle while in guy mode.

Pythos, you have such a strong spirit and a level of frustration that is not so different than what many of us feel. The difference is you are very vocal in your frustration (which of course there is nothing wrong with). While I share many of your sentiments and feel many of your frustrations, I accept my fate as being a result of the world that I have built around me rather than what society dictates. You on the other hand are young enough and single enough to steer your life in such a way to minimize the issues you contend with every day, aviation notwithstanding.


Sara,
I don’t think you are still in the closet. You venture out into the big world yet you are not out to friends, family, and co-workers etc…. Maybe this places you in the beach cabana or maybe in the green room as show business calls it. :D

Depends on how one defines closet which is part of the purpose of starting this thread, to show another POV, solidarity of sorts for those who are more in the closet in a physical sense.

I like the sound of a beach cabana much better than the green room...or TG purgatory! ;)


Even my attending NC meetings enfemme embarrasses her, but she tolerates my going because it is more or less a controlled environment. I think what embarrassed her the most last monthg was having to walk through Coco’s to get to the back room.

Ahhhh, the gauntlet as I call it. Trust me, I get what you are saying. I always hold my head high when passing through the rocks, tomatoes, chains and maces which sometimes pelt me as I pass through but I totally get how this set-up can be a bit unnerving for some.

I think next time your wife attends with you, she should go either five minutes before or after you. That way she doesn't have to feel the steely eyes of the Muggles as the TG's in their midst upset their apple carts. She may be feeling pure embarrassment that we learn to let go at some point or more importantly, she may be feeling the embarrassment for you, her husband, as you choose to subject yourself to such prying eyes.


I don’t think I’m quite ready to venture out to any of the large malls or go for a pedicure enfemme although I think many would think it odd that I’m not embarrassed having my toes painted while drab in a salon.

That's where the circle of comfort can come in handy.


My Therapist asked me why I’m more comfortable dressed around women than men? But then she furnished the answer herself when she asked if I found women, on a whole, more accepting than men?

Completely a tangential issue but I would say that this can easily become a non-factor the more you get out.


I have said many times on here “there is nothing wrong with being in the closet.” All but a few build their lives around safe environments, it is rather fool-hardy to do otherwise, and the closet is for the most part a safe environment. For many the closet is the only safe environment unless they wish to put their marriage, family, job and livelihood, and their loved-ones at risk. I will never fault someone for seeking safe-harbor.

So true even for the semi-safe harbour of the "extended" closet.


Do I think I'm out? No. Not really. I mean, I'm out, but I'm just not out, you know? :)

Your just as "out" as I am Kathi, or is that just as "not out", you know ;)!!!

Then again, you have spilled some beans in the employment circle of your comfort zone (sounding kind of like a tale by Dante right about now), spilt beans that easily rival my leaking of femme...but that's a debate for another day.


On the other hand, I do sometimes wonder what would happen. I mean, people seem to have high opinions of me (go figure, eh?). I wonder how much to the left or right of center that opinion would get knocked askew by the revelation that I'm not quite what I seem. Like Pythos, I would love to cast aside the need to hide who and what I truly am, and let them see the true me.

However, as I mentioned, I have other people to think about. Those people's happiness mean much more to me than my own. I will, therefore, maintain the status quo until it is no longer necessary. And you know what? I don't really feel too bad about that.

It's called the best of both worlds, something that those of us on a middle path with this whole thing can relate to. This makes me think of a can of worms that could be a new thread in and of itself, something that also is best saved for another day.


Sara you know that I am right there along side you when it comes to this. My limited coming out has caused a lot of turmoil for my wife who I dearly love. I, like you, think its best to shield those I love from the challenges we deal with because of who we are. Luckily the anonymity of the crowd allows the freedom to express ourselves without much chance of being outed if done properly. I have to stay in the shadows because of my career and I prefer to stay there in order to shield my family. I certainly do not hang out in the closet because of paranoia or shame concerning who I am.

I am proud of who I am and feel the only way for us to overcome the discrimination we receive is to get out and show the world we are wonderful human beings like most everyone else. However, I am not the Ghandi of Transgender and I do not wish to sacrifice all for this cause. I will paint the signs and carry them (doing all of those things Sara lists a safe distance from home), but I am not going on any hunger strikes anytime soon (coming out just because we feel we have to martyr our male lives to authenitcate our female selves). :daydreaming:

I wouldn't call us in the closet. I consider us more T Gal's in the plastic bubble. Not completely out but still roving around the world and interacting with it. At least the bubble doesn't smell like moth balls.:D

Brilliant Suzanne, each and every word.

I think the "martyr" part comes in when one makes the momentous decision to transition. Therefore, there is no martyr here either given my current state of mind that "I would if I could but I can't so I won't", AKA choosing to stay on this middle path.


Well Sara, out is a sliding scale in my book just like transgenderism.

That makes way too much sense Sue. Very little in this world is black and white, why should "in" or "out" be any different?


An example happened last night. My Tri-Ess group had a night out at the ballgame en drab with family. Something so we get everyone in the family out. I get there and one of the members had her brother there. I just happen to work with her brother and father and they know about my friend and the brother knew about the group. But even though I work at the same company with the brother, we have yet to work together on anything. So my friend's wife asked if it was going to be a problem and I first said that if he remembered me when I had a cap and sunglasses on he was doing good. Then I said that while I wasn't specifically wanting to be out at work, someday someone will see me (that is my mindset anyway so there are no surprises). Not a big deal as he sat behind me and left early and we never talked.

But the point is, I either go out and not try and turn it into a secret agent thing or I stay home. I will take normal care, but after that, what happens....happens.

Great attitude, and a great story. Reminds me of something I witnessed at our support group 2 or 3 years ago, two people attended, both in guy mode IIRC, and if I remember correct, both happened to work together. Can't say for certain if I've seen either of them since.


So now im closing in on 30, and have begun the process of starting a family a career etc, and i'm torn. I feel i missed out on my best years to explore and discover myself and be more "out". Maybe its selfish and im ungreatful for what i have, but i dont want to wake up one day when im 50 and regret this life.

This sadness is horrible :(

All I can say is that at your age, there is no excuse for you to not make fully informed choices as you build your life (given that information is much more available as you grew up compared with what I had). You are about to embark on everything that I currently have no choice but to protect. My advice is to be sure NOW about how you wish to live your life. That will save you a lot of grief as mid-life approaches...and hopefully save you from a sense of horrible sadness that you are feeling.


I guess I'm in the same boat as Sue and the rest of you...


I think most of here are in the same boat...Debra

Funny, the boat seems to be a bit crowded. Good thing it's not quite as clausterphobic as a tiny closet though!!!


The "embarrasment" of an SO. This is an area that is I think one of the biggest obstacles we all deal with. But why is it even a factor...This embarrassment is once again in my opinon due to people not standing their ground. Allowing others to dictate their thoughts and actions. This is good to an extent, but I do think in our cases it is detrimental.


Pythos, I understand your stance on this, but you're not married, and once you marry, it changes everything. I do not wish to cause her any embarrassment or humiliation due to my wishing to crossdress. She is more important to me than my wanting to go out all the time en femme. I am content to wait until I have opportunities to do so which will not cause her any concern. It is not a matter of me standing my ground with her, either. She's my wife, and I honor her wishes as much as I am able.

Point / counter-point in all it's glory. Pythos, I see what you are saying and on a base level, you are absolutely right. But marriage does change everything as Marla says.

And Marla, your position is beyond honorable. It's admittedly something I could never do. Then again, as much as my wife struggles with this thing of mine, she does understand the depth and rarely, if ever stands in the way when expression is required. She puts up with my major & minor body mods (©VeronicaM) and gives me space to get out and about every so often, all in an effort to preserve our life together, hopefully not simply staving off the inevitable which at times feels like what we're doing.


Sara, you perfectly described my situation, except that I have no SO at the moment, but I am always looking, trying and hoping! I call your "circle" my safe zone. I dress and go out away from that zone whenever I want and can, and like you, I shop in drab in that zone all the time as if no one will see me. Stretching the envelope, inviting recognition or just learning to live with this that we have. I like it, work it and really enjoy it. Maybe one day "it" will happen and I will be discovered. So be it. I am at the wonderful stage of life where, in general, "I just don't give a damn, Scarlet."

Amazing how many of our stories are strikingly similar.


So, am I out? In comparison to December of 2010?? I'd say I am!

Sounds like you have come a long way fast. Best to take very measured and thoughtful steps.

Speaking of thoughtful, probably the most thoughtful muse in these pages...


Closed threads here we come! I appreciate the disclaimer, though – do you think anyone will refer to it down the road? You are what you read, or choose not to read, but I recently stated that we will revisit this “in” vs. “out” debate before the week is out. Here we go again, but this is a non-controversial topic worthy of discussion…

I don't think a lock is an inevitable conclusion to this one. So far everyone has adhered to my disclaimer. Maybe I'll be so bold as to say that I'm actually on to something which like you say isn't so controversial.


I was thinking of starting a thread about this insightful idea, since, for some of us, crossdressing requires a certain “backing-off” to accommodate the feelings of others as we endeavor to preserve all that is dear to us (in a personal sense). In my not-so-humble opinion, we MtF crossdressers fall into two main camps – those who care about others, and those who don’t.

Keep in mind Freddie that even though this discussion resides in the MTF Crossdressing section, not all of us identify as such. Imagine taking your premise into TS territory and you will have essentially defined the foundation of the middle path. I care too much about others (my family) to drop the equivalent of a nuclear bomb on their world via coming out with an intent to transition.


Speaking of admiration, it’s not everyday that I get to quote three iconic CD “figures” within the same post! :)

Alright, way too sweet Freddie, and to be grouped with Kathi & Marla makes my day!!! :)


There is much to what you say that is very well stated and that applies to me also. But, in my case all my family knows, except my mother-in-law. Before last year I had not done many of the things you listed, but since then I done almost all. Both in male and female mode, with the latter being done by your example and encouragement. Especially at DLV. In my male part I participate in a macho type world. The closet is very deep and dark. Away from that it is wide open and full of light. A delicate balance that I have managed to establish, maintain and am comfortable with.

My relationship with my wife is also the most important thing in my life and her acceptance, in a non participating way, is of vital importance. I must always be carefull not to cause her embarsement or push the envelope too hard. If I step over the line she is quick to tell me and I just as quickly styep back. Yet I am still able to be Alice, both at home and going out on occasion. I appreciate your post and look forward to meeting with you again in the near future. It's nice to have a big closet.

And Alice, your entire situation is to be admired, just as your tale is one that I find to be remarkable. I can't wait to see you again soon!!!

[kristinacd55]

Originally Posted by kristinacd55
So, am I out? In comparison to December of 2010?? I'd say I am!
Sounds like you have come a long way fast. Best to take very measured and thoughtful steps.
I am my dear, believe me I am........trying to slow it wayyy down with the best part being my wife joining here a week ago :)

[docrobbysherry]

Sara J, someone needs to draw up an "in", "out", scale. With all the different degrees of "outness" charted!

I'm not sure where I'd fall on that scale! Probably way "in". But, I think Sherry would prefer to be much further "out"!

[Kathi Lake]

Very true, Sherry! We do tend to slide around a bit in that sliding scale, don't we? :)

I don't have a problem with that. I am not black or white in almost anything I do. I am totally about the shades of gray (which reminds me of the totally cute dress I saw today! Kind of a white windowpane print with gray. Fabulous!! :)).

Anyway, we have different levels of 'outness' in different areas, it seems. As Sara mentioned, some people at work know about me (to various levels). Last night at church, the ladies I hang out with (the Gorgeous Gossip Patrol) and I were chatting about things, and one of them said, "all right, ladies - we need to organize the auction coming up. Let's have a girl's night in at my house this Tuesday at 6:30 and divvy up the responsibilities. Selena, you bring the drinks." Looking at the woman next to me, she said, "Faith, can you bring some veggies?" Then she looked at me and said, "You have to bring your spicy dip. It's too yummy!" She then kept giving out responsibilities and said, "OK ladies, this'll be fun! See you Tuesday." (gee, you'd never guess she's a Colonel's wife, would you? :)).

Later, I was talking with Selena, and we got on the subject of shopping (seems to happen quite a bit with me :)). I told her that I thought I had created a monster with my daughter, and that I had turned her into a shopping animal! I told her of how we loved to go to DSW (Designer Shoe Warehouse) and try on all the shoes. She asked if we ever tried on any Jimmy Choos. I told her that no, DSW didn't carry Choos. For those we had to go to Dillard's, but we didn't try those on often because they were so expensive. Totally forgetting myself, I walked right into her trap. She asked me how much they were. I said, "Well, they range from $400 - $700 or so a pair, but they are soooo cute! It seems that every pair is just a gorgeous perfect shoe!" I caught myself then and sheepishly said, "Heck, I'm a guy and I even think they're cute." With a twinkle in her eye, she just said, "uh huh." Busted! :)

So, we're in and we're out - and then we're out and we're in. It's more of a merry-go-round than a scale, it seems.

:)

Kathi

[Sara Jessica]

...I caught myself then and sheepishly said, "Heck, I'm a guy and I even think they're cute." With a twinkle in her eye, she just said, "uh huh." Busted! :)

See how you are ;)!!!

[vikki2020]

Great post Sara! It's funny how many of us can wear the same shoe[a 4" pump,thank you!] Your original post fits me very well. I am getting much closer to the point of no return, and just "do it", and be the real me. Every time I get out, I want it to be like that always, and why deny the inevitable? Concerns for others close to me are the only binds I have.

[Anne2345]

This is a fantastic thread! Obviously, for those who know me, I do not think I am out. Instead, I am a closet dweller, and I love my closet! More importantly, I am proud to be a MtF crossdresser, and I love myself for it. That said, I think the closet is many things to many people. Clearly, as I have related through some of my recent stories on this forum, I have extended the parameters and walls of my own closet. I have no intention or desire to come out to those around me, or to go out en femme in public, but my closet has been extended nonetheless.

However, I have recognized through the wise and supportive words of some of my sisters here that one can achieve or seek out balance within one's crossdressing life, and also seek out new experiences. I need not sacrifice my closet to go out and do such things as purchasing makeup in department stores. If I take reasonable precautions, I can do both! I have defended with great zeal my closet in the face of certain attacks in the past, and my feelings and thoughts have not changed. Nor shall my status as a closet dweller change.

What has changed is buying into the concept of "extentions" to my closet, as the OP has referred to. Such a concept is brilliant and beautiful in its simplicity, and allows one to have both their cake and eat it too, if that is the desire and goal. And right know, cake is smeared all over my face where I have been eating too much too quickly! But it has been amazing, and all made possible by discussing such matters as presented by the OP.

In this, I am not so set in my ways that I cannot learn to engage in and embrace new experiences. Nor am I so afraid of doing so that I am paralyzed with fear, and unable to act. Although admittedly, it has not been easy overcoming my fears (which have been many, whether justified or not). But the lesson learned is that we can do such things, if such things are the things we want to do. In this regard, everybody is different. We also are subject to change throughout the passage of time. I now recognize and readily admit this. I embrace such evolution and development, and look forward to the future.

For those within the closet that have a desire to add extensions, it can be done discretely and cautiously. So far so good for me, and the rewards have been quite satisfying to say the least. I am the last person on this forum that will ever impose my beliefs on another, and tell a member she should do this or that, but there is much to be learned from other's experiences and stories as presented herein. I know I have learned much in my short time here, and I shall continue to do so, within the safety and comfort of my extended closet.