Gender Identity Disorder (GID) and Hormones - First Hand Experience?

[Stefia S]

My friend has been seeing a counselor and was diagnosed with mild Gender identity Disorder. It was a real surprise to the person - I can see why, since IMHO he's a little bit homophobic. The treatment suggested to him to reduce his generally high level of stress and bouts of depression is to take a tiny bit of estrogen. This has freaked him out a bit. He's been recommended an endocrinologist, but may seek a second opinion.

I was wondering if any of you have had first hand experience with this approach of coming to terms with GID?

Fia

[CharleneT]

While I have heard of this sort of "test" I think it is foolish at best.... changing a persons hormonal system from T based to E based has wide ranging affects. It is bad to flip back and forth between the two much. Sure some times it comes to pass for a good reason a patient has to stop for a while. But starting with the idea of just trying " a little ..." is bad medicine.

[Stefia S]

Yes, thanks. I think that's been my concern, hormones are not something you trifle with.

[gerigirl]

While I have heard of this sort of "test" I think it is foolish at best.... changing a persons hormonal system from T based to E based has wide ranging affects. It is bad to flip back and forth between the two much. Sure some times it comes to pass for a good reason a patient has to stop for a while. But starting with the idea of just trying " a little ..." is bad medicine.


Begging your pardon, but your post is uninformed and frankly mistaken on a number of counts. I don't know all of what was said to the OP's friend but treatment of gender issues accompanied by "high levels of stress", anxiety, and "depression" can and are being treated successfully without problematic side effects using very low dose estrogen therapy. This treatment is not "bad medicine". Many medical and psychological professionals have come to see very low dose hormone treatment (using 'E' or 'T' for a variety of conditions) as preferable to anti-depressants or other psychoactive drugs. I believe there is at least one scientific paper that describes the use of low dose estrogen for GID and Psychologist Anne Vitale (One of the most highly regarded gender issues therapists in the world) has spoken favorably at professional conferences regarding this approach.

Very low dose estrogen does not "change a persons hormonal system from T based to E based"; and on what basis do you conclude that this person would be "flipping back and forth"? Remember that the OP's friend was referred to an endocrinologist, but there is nothing about such a consult taking place. No responsible specialist would prescribe such treatment without a medical work up and the expectation that administering a drug would likely produce a favorable outcome. Moreover, treatment by an endocrinologist is dedicated to establishing a hormonal balance that makes for a healthy individual. Indeed the person in question should seek one or more "second opinions". However, it would be a tragedy if the recommended therapy were rejected out of hand or because of an uninformed opinion offered in this forum. The reality is that this person's life could be improved with the help of this treatment.

[GypsyKaren]

I can't suggest such a treatment or not because I'm not a doctor, which is what the ''counselor" should also be saying instead of recommending anything of a medical nature.

[Jorja]

I totaly agree with gerigirl. I know 4 guys right now, who are all under the care of an endocrinologist and reciving low dose estrogen due to high stress levels that have not responded to other methods of treatment. At last check, it is working for them.

[Inna]

Hi Gerigirl, I have too found lots of uneducated guesses and personal preferences on the variety of subjects.

After all this is an open forum and weather someone wants to say hi or give highly profound instruction they do so without much hesitation. I suppose, this is why I love it here so much, on the other hand I believe that in such instance speaking ones opinion should be carefully though through, especially speaking about treatment for someone whose health and details are simply absent. It is absolutely true what Gerigirl talks about and there are variety of short term hormonal treatments from low dose Estro to testosterone blockers to manipulate persons psyche or reveal an underlying gender condition without sexual impulses clouding the results.

Hence therapist had suggested visit to Endo, I am sure to establish the BASE, an initial hormone levels! As you can tell this therapyst knows what they are doing and NO, they are not prescribing anything without first covering the necessary steps of the process.

Second opinion is always suggested and anytime hormones are introduced to the organism the potential of complication elevates.

Many of you do not know though that our hormone levels are fluctuating on the daily basis and with consumption of many natural as well as processed foods hormones are present in our diet from day to day, yet we manage to go on just fine :)

[Badtranny]

It was a real surprise to the person - I can see why, since IMHO he's a little bit homophobic.

lol

As far as I can tell, most of the population on this board is a "little bit homophobic". It's also been my experience that those that are the most demonstrably anti-gay are usually hiding something. I bet your friend's therapist is right on the money and you're not exactly getting the whole story from your friend.

Just a hunch.

[gerigirl]

I can't suggest such a treatment or not because I'm not a doctor, which is what the ''counselor" should also be saying instead of recommending anything of a medical nature.

You have something of a point here, but its not entirely accurate. I wrote "recommended" in my response. Perhaps I should have written "suggested". Indeed that is the word used in the original post and it is appropriate and professional for a licensed therapist to "suggest" that a client investigate a particular medical intervention. Every day you will hear or read scores of "suggestions", (advertisements even) that you investigate various medical treatments and prescription drugs. They all emphasize that you talk to your doctor to see if ______ is right for you. That is exactly what this therapist was doing when he/she suggested that the person in question see an endocrinologist. Indeed many, if not most of us, pursued hormone therapy as "suggested" by a non prescribing therapist, but that was ultimately "recommended" and prescribed by a physician.


lol

As far as I can tell, most of the population on this board is a "little bit homophobic". It's also been my experience that those that are the most demonstrably anti-gay are usually hiding something. I bet your friend's therapist is right on the money and you're not exactly getting the whole story from your friend.

Just a hunch.

OMG

You are so right and we are going to be in such trouble for observing this. I thought about commenting earlier on this myself but held back. "Tranny", you are so much more bad than me. This is the type of homophobia that most people, particularly the homophobes don't talk or think about. Its not fear of gay people but fear that they themselves might, horrors, be gay. In this case it may even be more than that. It probably includes the fear that taking a FEMALE hormone will make them gay and or girlie. Perish the thought. I am sure there are men who no matter how seriously afflicted by a physical or mental disorder would balk at taking estrogen even if it promised the only cure.

[Starling]

It seems to me that MTF homophobia is discussed fairly often here, and that whenever a blatantly homophobic post appears, it is usually countered almost immediately--as it should be. However, there is a kind of background, "benign" homophobia that exists in our culture, that we really should be more aware of.

It's the difference between a stereotype and a prejudice; the first is considered more or less acceptable, especially if it is in most aspects neutral, or even positive. But stereotypes remain crude measures of human beings.

:) Lallie

[gerigirl]

It seems to me that MTF homophobia is discussed fairly often here, and that whenever a blatantly homophobic post appears, it is usually countered almost immediately--as it should be. However, there is a kind of background, "benign" homophobia that exists in our culture, that we really should be more aware of.

It's the difference between a stereotype and a prejudice; the first is considered more or less acceptable, especially if it is in most aspects neutral, or even positive. But stereotypes remain crude measures of human beings.

:) Lallie

I am not familiar with the discussions of homophobia that occur here "fairly often". Perhaps I should take a look at some of them, or perhaps not. However, I am quite familiar with how the terms "stereotype" and "prejudice" are used in every day language AND social scientific discussion. Now "'benign' homophobia" that is a new one for me. Homophobia is a prejudice and I don't see much of a valid argument that it can be "benign". By definition it is fear and dislike of gay people. It is most often based on irrational and negative stereotypes. Are you suggesting that because homophobia can be partly based on stereotypes that may contain some truth makes this fear and dislike "benign"? If so you are unclear on the meaning of benign. It is borrowed from medicine and it means harmless. Sorry, but arguing that homophobia of any sort is harmless will require that you make more of an argument that merely asserting that it is true.

[Stephenie S]

To answer the OP, I have no "first hand" knowledge of treating GID with mild hormone therapy, but I personally know of at least one member of this forum who is doing this very thing. I will let her speak up if she so wishes, but last I knew she was quite happy with the results. I DO know this is being done under the care of a qualified endocrinologist.

S

And is there latent homophobia on this forum? Oh you betcha there is.

[Stefia S]

Hi - Thank you all for your responses (so far), I'm learning so much!

BTW - I'm impressed with how quickly my friend has come to accept his GID- he's said it just seems to explain so much that he's wondered about himself. He's quite open really - I think his prior attitude was borne more from ignorance than a concious prejudice, and was never malicious.

[Felix]

Hi Stefia and hope ya dont mind me commenting to such a great thread and I agree with so much of what Gerri Girl and others have said re hormone therapy and the usage of low doses of hormones as I know it works also. If my GF hadnt gone on Estrogen when she did eight years ago the stress would have killed her as her blood pressure was that high she was in the relms of heart failure. The hormones saved her life :-) Im so glad coz now she is with me and we are very happy :-)

Its funny when I read your post I thought bless him he is scared becuase the therapist has brought to tge for whats going on and hes been in denial. Im really pleased for him that hes coming to terms with things now brilliant news and its great hes got a supportive friend in you :-)....Felix

[Kaitlyn Michele]

geri...

homophobia is quite common around here and even more so in the crossdressers section.....and you certainly must know its just as common among trans people as among cisgendered people.. if i meet another crossdresser that tells me hes not gay i think i'll punch him in the face.. benignly of course..

BTW i read lallie's quotes around the work "benign" and the follow up words.."that we should really be more aware of..." as saying that this is something that is a problem...perhaps you should read posts more carefully before jumping up on your high horse.

anyway,
It sure seems like more and more people are getting a benefit from low dose HRT...that's got to be a good thing.. i know a person benefiting from this..and its also true that anxiety/depression meds are risky in their own right...
regardless of the debate around whether it works or not for a ts person to take low hormone doses..it seems pretty speculative for a person that is "surprised" by a counselors diagnosis to start a treatment without more input... an endo is just about the hrt and the bloodwork...they are not interested or knowledgeable in gender issues...

i often have a negative reaction when i read that someone has been "diagnosed" with GID...and "mild? GID"...... how is a counselor different than a therapist or doctor? i'm not a fan of choosing mental health providers based on degrees or titles, but i think in the TS/GID world, experience is crucial to good advice..

it just sounds a little like take two hormones and call me in the morning and that your friend might be well served to take more time and get more input

[gerigirl]

geri...

homophobia is quite common around here and even more so in the crossdressers section.....and you certainly must know its just as common among trans people as among cisgendered people.. if i meet another crossdresser that tells me hes not gay i think i'll punch him in the face.. benignly of course..

BTW i read lallie's quotes around the work "benign" and the follow up words.."that we should really be more aware of..." as saying that this is something that is a problem...perhaps you should read posts more carefully before jumping up on your high horse.

anyway,
It sure seems like more and more people are getting a benefit from low dose HRT...that's got to be a good thing.. i know a person benefiting from this..and its also true that anxiety/depression meds are risky in their own right...
regardless of the debate around whether it works or not for a ts person to take low hormone doses..it seems pretty speculative for a person that is "surprised" by a counselors diagnosis to start a treatment without more input... an endo is just about the hrt and the bloodwork...they are not interested or knowledgeable in gender issues...

i often have a negative reaction when i read that someone has been "diagnosed" with GID...and "mild? GID"...... how is a counselor different than a therapist or doctor? i'm not a fan of choosing mental health providers based on degrees or titles, but i think in the TS/GID world, experience is crucial to good advice..

it just sounds a little like take two hormones and call me in the morning and that your friend might be well served to take more time and get more input

Kaitlyn,

Just because homophobia is common around here doesn't mean I have to tolerate it without question. I don't like it and i think the forum will be better if it is rooted out and confronted for what it is. Merely "being aware" of it is not enough and I do not wish to see it dismissed as harmless. Incidentally, a crossdresser who claims not to be gay is not necessarily homophobic even if they are in denial, and may not deserve your "punch in the face" no matter how "benign" you think it could be. In a way this comment of yours makes the point I develop below. What does a harmless punch in the face feel like?

I don't usually have time to post much or even anything of consequence but the last few days has been an exception. I felt I had several things to say regarding the issues in this thread so I said them in what I still believe was a well considered, civil and appropriate manner. Were this the "Homophobes Forum" I would not be a member nor would I see it worth my while trying to make occasional intelligent comments. Indeed I read all the posts carefully including yours, and the personal insult you leveled at me is unwelcome and counterproductive.

From my perspective, (one that I believe is clearly articulated and supported by many in our society at large) dismissing any sort of homophobia as harmless is problematic. What I asked Lallie to do was explain herself. Homophobia cannot at once be both a problem (consequential) and harmless (inconsequential) : just like your punch in the face. Your conjecture about Lallie's meaning does little or nothing to clear things up. You appear to be saying in effect: "Its just a little bigotry. Yeah, it's a problem, but its harmless." "Your Honor: I didn't punch her in the face very hard. It was harmless." Sorry but I don't buy it. Substitute racism for homophobia in you comments, or Lallie's, and tell us how comfortable you are with this.

Indeed there are degrees of homophobia, bigotry, racism, and also sexism for that matter, but to label the lesser manifestations of these states-of-mind benign, I argue, has the effect of robbing these concepts of their meaning. We need these words to mean something substantive to address these problems. In fact, to be precise I am less bothered by the reference to "a little homophobia" than the notion of "benign homophobia". There is a big difference in this language. Use of the word "little" might appear, to some, to trivialize homophobia but it does not in and of itself explicitly label it harmless! You can put all the quotes you want around the words; the implication is the same: if it's harmless why bother trying to do anything about it.

For what its worth, having read the OPs more recent comments I believe her intent was to make a factual remark about degree when describing her friend. It appears even that she may be backing away from labeling his attitude homophobic. This might not be productive, but coupled with the fact that her friend is facing up to his initial reaction and overcoming it this is the best possible outcome we could anticipate.

Lastly, while hormone therapy may or may not be the best approach to dealing with the problems this friend is having I see nothing in Stefia's posts that would indicate that the counselor mentioned regarded this course of action as "take two hormones and call me in the morning." I have a healthy skepticism of self described gender specialists and mental health professionals in general but I see relatively little substantive information about this person and nothing that would indicate to me that they were anything less than an an experienced professional. Indeed GID is a fuzzy term but its use in the medical model for treating the symptoms Stefia describes as they are associated with gender offers the only game in town. My "hormone letter" indicates that I am diagnosed as experiencing GID. Yet it was decided between me, my therapist and my physician that my hormone dosage would be consistent with transition. Some here seem to think that merely suggesting hormone therapy for anything other than mtf transition is an indication of limited competence. Not so, and there is significant professional and scientific credibility behind this conclusion. This is why I entered the conversation. I believe I responded knowledgeably and with credible and authoritative support rather than with conjecture and speculation. I could just as easily have added a comment about the therapist claiming that the mere familiarity with hormone therapy of this type was "cutting edge" and surely indicated that this is a well qualified individual. Stefia's original question was about hormones as therapy for GID that did don't appear to indicate transition, not the therapist's credibility in suggesting this therapy. I will also point out that there are Endocrinologists (at least two that I know about) who are sensitive to gender and a wide range of other mental health issues beyond that which you suggest. I suspect this is more common than you or I know directly given the kind of health issues that they typically deal with.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i happen to agree with lots of what you are saying.. how you take my comments and come up with the above is very difficult to follow, and it makes you very difficult to discuss things with.......

i made a clear point..the concept of "mild GID", the concept of diagnosis itself, the concept of a tiny bit of estrogen, the concept of it being a counselor, and the concept of the person being "surprised" added up to doing some more work, talking to someone else...etc...it was not dogma...it was common sense.. it's not so obvious she should just start taking e...there is another thread recently started where someone did that and she is worried that she is feeling worse, more masculine...
picking on the goofy aside at the end of what looks to me on rereading to be a very reasonable comment is a good example of the type of stuff that goes on way too much around here....

and you did basically the same thing to LALady on the homophobia point...twisting other posts around or giving them their worst possible meaning to make your points is bad form

[Melody Moore]

Anxiety, agitation, anger & aggression are all emotional responses commonly associated with testosterone & the male sex.

So I have to also agree with Geri here as well.

High testosterone levels has also been found to be the cause of these types of emotional responses in females as well
& my ex-girlfriend was a perfect example of this after she sustained a serious head injury which damaged her pituitary
gland. Since then she has suffered severe mood swings because her testosterone is far too high & her hormones are so
out of whack. She also suffered from some mild masculinisation including an abnormal about of facial hair & muscle bulk.

But she isn't the only person I know that has had this happen. I know a guy who also got a head injury & damaged his
pituitary gland but only in his case the reverse happened where his body stopped producing testosterone and he started
to femininise. So he was put on testosterone supplements to counteract the feminisation. But the problem with this guy
was he found out that testosterone is a very powerful addictive steriod that made him feel stronger & tough, and gave
him an increased libido which he seemed very happy about. He admitted to me that he was using twice the prescribed
amount of testosterone gel. But the problem was it turned him into a raving sex maniac to the point he even tried to
get violent with me when he tried to rape me! You can learn more about this and how the hormones affect our moods
& emotions if you google it. Google the "Side Effects Testosterone" for example and you will find some more information.

Anxiety, agitation, anger & aggression are all the very same emotional responses that I notice
I no longer suffer & no longer miss since starting hormone therapy & the only thing I can find
that might explain how that happened is the lowering of my testosterone.

I don't know what is better, using a bit of Oestrogen or a testosterone inhibitor, but if it is only a
small dose then it will not really affect him physically, especially if he has high level of Testosterone.

We are all meant to have a healthy balance of both sex hormones to maintain our health
so there is noting wrong wit taking Oestrogen. Hopefully your friend can get over his issues.

[gerigirl]

i happen to agree with lots of what you are saying.. how you take my comments and come up with the above is very difficult to follow, and it makes you very difficult to discuss things with.......

i made a clear point..the concept of "mild GID", the concept of diagnosis itself, the concept of a tiny bit of estrogen, the concept of it being a counselor, and the concept of the person being "surprised" added up to doing some more work, talking to someone else...etc...it was not dogma...it was common sense.. it's not so obvious she should just start taking e...there is another thread recently started where someone did that and she is worried that she is feeling worse, more masculine...
picking on the goofy aside at the end of what looks to me on rereading to be a very reasonable comment is a good example of the type of stuff that goes on way too much around here....

and you did basically the same thing to LALady on the homophobia point...twisting other posts around or giving them their worst possible meaning to make your points is bad form

Kaitlyn.

I am sorry that you cannot follow my reasoning. Indeed, we do agree on much. If you have a specific question, or something you would like me to clear up, you can ask me here or PM me and I will be happy to respond. I could not disagree more strongly with your allegation that I have twisted anybody's words, been inattentive, or read things into other contributor's posts, including your own . Please don't take this as an insult but I think you have tried to read some things into this discussion that are not there. You may be doing the very same thing with the thread you mention above. If I have the right thread in mind ("Feel so "off" and I don't know why"), you are mistaken about the OP. This person did not say that they had begun to "feel more masculine" on hormones. Go back and read her posts carefully. It's not so much a feeling of masculinity but the way she appraises herself as looking more masculine. She even has doubts about her own assessment. Moreover, the comparison to this case is not at all appropriate. For starters: she is pursuing transition rather than a much more limited objective. This alone puts her in a very different state of mind. Consistent with her plans to transition she has been taking a significantly higher dose of estrogen that might be contemplated here, AND she has just doubled her dosage! At the very minimum you are over reaching to offer this case as a comparison. At the worst you fundamentally misunderstand the profoundly different context of the latter situation. (my apologies if you have a different thread in mind.)

Let me see if I can't further clarify what I have written in light of your most recent response. Indeed, you tried to make a point about prudence, one that was made by several others here including myself. What I have a problem with is that you, and at least one other poster in this thread, appear to have concluded from the very limited information presented by the OP that there must be something suspect about the unnamed counselor, and this person's suggestion that the therapy in question might be appropriate. Logic and "common sense" should tell us at the very most that the "evidence" you present provides almost no support for this conclusion. Professional Counselors who use language consistent with a medical model when talking about gender issues are not ipso facto unqualified, incompetent, and or careless in their practice. Someone who experiences "surprise" over an insight offered by the same professional may be hearing an astute perceptive assessment, rather than something inaccurate or poorly rendered. I am arguing that none of the information provided, alone or in combination, provides significant support for the proposition that this counselor was anything but an experienced, skilled, professional offering sound advice.

At the very least you appear to be arguing that this counselor was careless. Why else would you liken their suggestion to a "take two and...... approach". "Goofy aside": sorry but that isn't the way it appears. This comment directly precedes your substantive advice and is part of the same sentence. Moreover it seems very consistent with the "evidence" you chose to make your point. If you ask me the "stuff that goes on way too often here" is that people ask a serious question and it gets turned into a joke. No, I don't think I am too serious or sensitive, nor am I above trying to make feeble attempts at humor. I am just trying to sort this out. One could easily have made the argument with the very same evidence you use that sticking with this counselor to further explore these issues was the most appropriate course of action. But as I have observed before, the original question was not centered on the counselor but the possible therapy. My point, again (please forgive the redundancy) is that doubting the counselor's credibility, and the possible efficacy of the suggested therapy, based only on the information that we have at hand is not a good idea, and it should not be 'the', or even 'a' reason one proceeds prudently in this matter. I think it irresponsible to suggest otherwise, even if the advice is correct. You may think this a minor point but I do not. The context of our comments is important because it does influence people, sometimes even in ways we do not intend.

I am very sorry that you feel picked on, and that it bothers you that I chose not to let Lallie's post stand without asking for some clarification. I have been abundantly clear about why I thought this necessary. Once again, I entered this discussion primarily because I recognized that some largely incorrect and very misleading information about the suggested therapy was given by another respondent to this thread. The other stuff is far less important to the thread, but I believe relevant and significant nonetheless.

Yes, I am very attentive to the way people use language and I am trying to offer sound, substantive arguments based on the facts available. I won't apologize for any of this, and if you want to better understand why I think the language we use is so important perhaps we can discuss it in another context. This thread started with a serious and important question. I tried, perhaps foolishly, to raise the level of discussion beyond what often takes place here.


BTW Melody, I think your post from personal experience is a decent and sincere contribution here. I'd also like to hear more from Stefia's about how her friend is doing and if he is getting the help he needs.

[Starling]

I am not familiar with the discussions of homophobia that occur here "fairly often". Perhaps I should take a look at some of them, or perhaps not...

I think you're absolutely right.

:) Lallie