Playing Devil's Advocate - our self delusion

[Claire96c]

I have met a good number of cross dressers and T-Girls here in the UK and I have to admit that nearly all would not have a hope of passing as real girls in public. They looked like men in dresses; tall, broad shouldered, large hands and feet, deep voices, prominent Adam's apples, and facial beards showing through overly thick make-up, and much much more. I don't think I'm any better even though I am not tall and have a small build.

Do we really believe we can pass when we dress or do we know inside that we haven't a hope of convincing anyone that we are female? Someone wrote that cross dressing is ten percent about clothes and ninety percent about our ability for self delusion. Do you agree?

Claire (on a bad day)

xx

[Karren H]

Assuming you want to pass.... 5% clothes and 95% attitude! Imho. Personally passing is over rated... Who cares what anyone thinks of the way I dress? Not me!

[Alice B]

I agree with Karren. What counts is how you feel, not what others think.

[Violetgray]

I'm not sure where you get the notion that most CD's think they can pass. Being passable, and looking good are not necessarily related. One can be un-passable, but still have a nice, respectable appearance.

There are varying degrees of beauty here, but the only judge that matters is the one in the mirror.

[Kaitlyn26]

I think almost anyone can be passable with enough work if they're under 50. If I had a nickel for every time I watched a makeup tutorial video where a nice looking man turned into a nice looking woman I'd be rich. The biggest problem I find in passing is that GGs take much better care of themselves than men do. If you know the technique and take care of yourself it's not that bad.

[DonnaT]

Some pass, some don't, and some pass quite convincingly. We are all different.

For me, I'd say it is around 100% the clothes, as I have no delusions regarding my passability.

But, when I was younger, I passed quite well.

Not all of us want to pass, but instead we want to relieve internal angst/compulsion pushing us to dress.

Personally, I could care less whether or not I pass these days.

[suzy1]

I think there are lots of members that do not kid themselves that they can pass but that is missing the point a bit. To feel feminine is a need that’s satisfied.
Then there are some here that have the ability to transform themselves with a little make up and the right clothes into very convincing women.
But I worry that there are one or two that go out thinking they pass when it’s obvious that they don’t. I hate to think of them getting hurt.


SUZY

[Kelly Greene]

I don't focus on passing when I go out my goal is to look nice.
If look nice then people have no room to make bad comments to me.
I known that I will never fool to many people into thinking I am a woman and
I am ok with that as long as I look nice.

[Debra Russell]

I don't know! -- I want to pass and after I dress and take enough pictures and look in the mirror long enough I see Debra looking back saying you look good, go have fun and off I go! ...............Debra

[Karren H]

I think almost anyone can be passable with enough work if they're under 50. .

50? What's so magical about 50? All of a sudden we old guys can't look like girls? Lol.

[Cynthia Anne]

50? What's so magical about 50? All of a sudden we old guys can't look like girls? Lol.

Yeah! Age has 'nuttin' to do with passing! And what does passing matter so much! Half the time I don't try to pass! I go out anyways!:brolleyes:

[Emily Ann Brown]

I PASS....on caring! All I ask is don't make a scene, and make me show my butt!

Em

[sandra-leigh]

My delusions of passing as a real girl in public lasted at most 1 1/2 evenings. After that it became clear that even dressed and made up and wigged and be-formed, that people could "read" me... from 75+ feet away, in a dimly lit room, from a side-view of me simply sitting still. But it also became clear that most people didn't care, and that the large majority of people who did "care" in some way were encouraging.

These days, I do things like take the city bus in the middle of the day, with no makeup (or just enough to hide stray beard) and perhaps some lipstick; with no wig (shoulder-length natural hair); with dangling ear-rings; with me wearing an obvious skirt or dress. If I do not happen to hit the noon bus packed full of grade 9 and 10 students traveling at their lunch-time, then few people look twice at me -- not in the "I'm ignoring you, I'm ignoring you!" sense of not looking at me, but rather in the "I'm thinking about dinner and about something that happened today, and I'm waiting for a friend to call, and I'm worried about being late" kind of abstract non-attention.

[Chickhe]

...yes, maybe, but so what? This has all been hashed out before, but basically, there is a wishful thinking/ pink fog and there is also large range of variability in the average woman, so you might pass or blend in most of the time even if you don't do a great job. I beleive a huge part of it is attitude and a smile on your face. But, it is the whole package, it is averages, if on the average you have most of what most woman have then you are a woman (at least for a while). I have seen some TS woman who don't exaclty fit the perfect form, but they have personality and they are happy. Some CDers also look great, but walk like lumberjacks and sound like men .. and still some people don't read them. I also know of at least one GG who I would swear is a TG based on her looks, the way she dresses etc. but I'm pretty sure she is not. There is a huge mix, just do your best, pass on good advice and do what you like, get out there an just have fun.

[Karren H]

and make me show my butt!

Em

Emily.... You tart you!!!

[Persephone]

I strongly agree with Kaitlyn and moderately agree with Suzy1 (except for the "under 50" part), but for the most part I'm really tired of this topic. I think it is mostly a bunch of people who are trying to justify an easy way out -- I don't have to even try 'cause I'm never gonna win.

Fine, if your lifestyle choice is to wander the world as a freak. Hey, no problem, I'll even stare at you along with everyone else.

But there are a percentage of us who are willing to put in the time and effort necessary to pass -- to move through mainstream society as just another woman and there are a lot of us who do just that.

Does it cost a significant part of your life to work on those skills? Yes, it does. But so do other things that are worth achieving.

It is a lot easier to wimp out, to say something can't be done. Once upon a time it was common knowledge that a human being simply could not run a mile in four minutes. That was until 1954 when Roger Bannister did it in 3:59.4. Now there are runners who have done it lots faster.

So keep your "it can't be done" fantasy if that is your choice. But there is, and always will be, room for you to step up a notch.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[kendra_gurl]

How can anyone know how many cd's pass everyday? If they pass you probably never noticed them yourself. It's only natural that you will notice those who don't pass and still look like a man in a dress.

I can say from the times I have been out en-femme. GG's will read you long before men do. Sometimes just because the purse your carring does not go with your shoes like they should. Might not have anythng to do with your makeup or hair.

As for self delusion: I have to agree that I too have seen so many who either don't see what everyone else sees or they really don't care about passing as much as just being themselves but who's to say that is wrong if they are content.

[TGMarla]

I think almost anyone can be passable with enough work if they're under 50.

*schniff!* I don't pass anymore! Wah!

Hey, none of us should be under too big a delusion as to passability. But then, if we wish to, we can still try and make a decent presentation in any case.

[kimdl93]

I disagree with the original post. I think that most of us are our own most severe critics, and those of us possessing, heightl, broad shouldered and the other masculine feautures listed, are, I can assure you, painfully aware of these attributes. But you suggest that we are deluding ourselves if we have any hope of presenting as female.

People I trust have told me that despite my height and physique, they didn't recognize me as being male immediately. I do think there's a good deal more than physique - women come in all shapes & sizes, and have facial features of all kinds. What Karren says impresses me. Passing - or more generally - blending in are as much a matter of attitude and movement as they are clothing and physical attributes. And honestly, when I go out, I'm enjoying the way I look and feel, regardless of how I may be judged by others. As a wise friend once said "other people's opinion of me is none of my business!"

[Jocelyn Quivers]

The cursed Broad Shoulders. :Angry3: I have to work on that, I must, or else I will never pass.:eek: That's why from this day foward I'm swearing off push ups. :devil:

[NathalieX66]

One thing that helps passing is wearing the right type of clothing.
There are many women that have less than perfect figures. Not every girl want to show her cleavage or shoulders, so she may wear a sweater over the dress. flaunt your best assets, play down your worst assets.

[kimdl93]

now, this is something I think we need to think about. I'm told that we have to wear loose, raglan, dolman or otherwise draped sleeves and employ various other strategies to hide our shoulders. But sometimes I think we can go overboard in hiding too. I mean, there are lots of women who have attractively muscled shoulders. And sometimes a tank top or halter top just look right, even with a bit too much deltoid development. I know I've got those cursed shoulders, but damned if I'm always going to hide them ;)

[Aprilrain]

GGs take much better care of themselves than men do.

this is mostly true however most of the things GGs (and TS girls, THANK YOU) do to take care of our skin and what not is not going to give a man that glowing smooth feminine skin that a lot of woman have. Its called Estrogen people!

[Michelle James]

I am over 50 (I won't say how far) and I am out there 24/7. I don't believe in the term "passing" Blending is what we should strive for. I just dress like most GG's do and I just look like one of a million other big girls. And you know what? I really don't give a shit if someone clocks me. Who cares? Oh and yes Karren we old guys can look like girls. Old fat girls but girls none the less.

[Dawn cd]

I think it depends on what you mean by "passing." Very few of us can pass upon close examination, but we can walk down the street en femme without attracting a second glance. Much of the social intercourse in cities is quite anonymous. People don't really look at each other. Even this level of acceptance for many cds is enormously gratifying.

[Gina738]

I don't think at my best I truley pass. I look at it this way a 52 year old firefighter and motorcycle racer beat down by many years of injuries and some dumb life choices, I just try to be the best that I can and that is me. I now take better care of myself which has helped in the past few years.

Gina

[SweetIonis]

Someone wrote that cross dressing is ten percent about clothes and ninety percent about our ability for self delusion. Do you agree?


First of all, I believe that practically everyone, crossdresser or not, is operating under some degree of self deception.

That said, I would answer like this, it depends on what you are trying to achieve when you cross dress. For some people, passing may not be that important so that would likely be quantitatively different from someone who passing has a high priority.

[sissystephanie]

I don't think that I have self-delusions about crossdressing. Notice that I said, "about crossdressing." I have no desire to be a woman, and at my current state of life do not even try to look like one except for wearing feminine clothing!

But when my dear wife was alive it was a different story. I am 5' 10" and weigh approximately 170#, which of course means that I am large girl. But when my late wife worked her magic with cosmetics and wig styling on me, I was able to pass without any question. I don't have her expertise so I don't even try. I go out in public almost every day dressed totally enfemme, but without the wig or makeup!! And you know what, nobody ever says a thing!! I have been doing that for 6 years now and still have not heard a negative comment!! And really, I don't care!! I dress to please myself, not the rest of the public! If people don't like the fact that I am a man wearing clothing that shows off my rather feminine figure, that is their problem not mine!! Of course, if they make an issue about it someone might get hurt!! I may be old, but I am still in good shape and my former training makes me fairly dangerous!!

[Melody Moore]

I strongly disagree with the OP's original past as well and like others have said here, we are our own worst critics!
For a long time I believed that I would never be accepted as a female, but how wrong was I to make that assumption? :heehee:

As it turns out, I have landed squarely on my feet as a M-F intersexed transsexual & have made a lot of new friends.
Still have many of the old friends however they feel less significant now because of how my new friends respect me
so differently and as the person I truly am. However I can understand that you might feel like a 'man in a dress' when
that is what you truly are as a crossdresser. But I don't think that the OP has any clue about how a transsexual truly
feels or the impression they leave on others. For a start I never try to 'pass' because that is only for the 'try hards &
dreamers' on this site who's minds are over-clouded with pink fog - I am simply me! And to be quite frank, I couldn't
give a flying f*ck about what anyone else thinks now anyway - I KNOW WHO I AM & SO TOO DO MY FRIENDS!

When I go out in public I don't raise any eyebrows & noone even looks at me twice. Men stop to open doors for me &
will hit on me like any other female. I was in a gentleman's club with some other lesbian girlfriends & a guy came up to
our table and hit on me out all the girls in group. But told him I was a lesbian & he told me he was 'straight' so does that
mean? did he see me as a 'bloke in a dress or as a woman'? I am greeted as 'Madam' and always referred to as a lady
when I am in shops.

But the biggest affirmation I have ever got from anyone person or group of people that I am a female - is that I have been
fully accepted as another female by my local lesbian community - which as most people would understand lesbians typically
want nothing to do with anyone that is a male, has a testosterone fuelled & extremely delicate ego or might have a penis!

Being a woman has nothing to do with having smaller arms & shoulders & being small & petite, there are many natal females
have broad shoulder, big arms & are tall and well built. Being a woman has nothing to do with how you dress or even having
a pair of breasts - just look at the number of flat chested women there are in the world that are really beautiful.

Being a woman is something that comes from with in - it is an energy & even pheromones (when you are on hormone therapy)
that you give off that let's others know who you really are. I have even seen how pets can react differently. Animals that did
not normally like males will take to me because they can smell that I am a female. I seen the change in my ex-girlfriend's cat
and another girlfriend's dog who was abused by males and doesn't trust them. So because of this I also believe that there are
biological components behind being accepted as a true female which is made possible through proper hormone therapy.

Being a woman & being accepted as female in society is about knowing who you really are & being your true self. And I won't
deny that there are those people out there that do look like 'blokes in dresses' because that is what they really are & this is
especially common in the crossdressing community. But I don't think that you should ever generalise especially when it comes
to the intersex/transsexual community because there are some dynamics at play here that you won't ever understand.

Sorry to say this, but the only self-delusion going on around here is your own trying to judge others like this....

"Before you can remove the speck from your brother's eye, you must first remove the plank from your own"

[renee k]

I think almost anyone can be passable with enough work if they're under 50. If I had a nickel for every time I watched a makeup tutorial video where a nice looking man turned into a nice looking woman I'd be rich. The biggest problem I find in passing is that GGs take much better care of themselves than men do. If you know the technique and take care of yourself it's not that bad.

I resemble that remark. I don't go along with the under fifty rule. My thoughts are if you take care of yourself. Groom yourself appropriately. YOU'LL PASS! Hormones are a big help too! But, most importantly is being comfortable in your own skin!

Renee

[Pythos]

I don't think I am passable, but the big question is do I look good.

From what I have gathered the answer to that is YES. Now how true that is is beyond me. For all I know it could just be people being polite, and thinking I actually look like a darn fool. LOL.

As I have said before. Many MtoF CDs have a particular look, that I wish would come into vough as "attractive". Remember for a long time it was thought attractive for women to wear garments that indeed made their butts look big, and gave an overly exaggerated S curve to the body. Why can't the "CD look" be regarded well opposed to as something that needs to be changed by surgery.

I also would like to go out to places other than CD groups, or The Goth club, wearing skirts, wigs, makeup and stuff, without running the risk of getting chased and beaten down by some A-holes that find me to be a threat to their manhood (as fragile as that is)

[Melody Moore]

Hi Renee,

I too am close to 50 at the age of 48 and I couldn't agree more with what you just said.
Look after yourself, pay attention to your grooming and there is no issue, but as you said...

The most important thing here is like you say.... is to be comfortable in your own skin! ;)

[Anna Bee]

I have no delusions about being passable. On my best day I'm a boy that looks pretty in make up.

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

Do we really believe we can pass when we dress or do we know inside that we haven't a hope of convincing anyone that we are female? Someone wrote that cross dressing is ten percent about clothes and ninety percent about our ability for self delusion.

Some people may not think that they need to match any specific criteria to dress in any clothes and flick there hair at that criteria. They dress to express their individuality and I salute their "guts" to do it and respect them. I wish that I had enough "guts" to do it.
I do not agree that cross dressing is 10% about clothes and 90% about self delusion. I think that crossdressing is an innate thing that devours you. The degree it takes over I think depends on your own body and mind. Clothes may form a part of it but there is something that drives your inner being out of your body. A need to not only express but a need to release your true self.
I have seen a lady with an athletic build, wide shoulders, small waist and little breast, even had an adams apple but she has three children and is beautiful and radiates femininity. Who am I to judge her, she has no hourglass figure, she does not need it she has an inner beauty that erodes a perception that media promotes.
I think that to have the attitude that we who dress as female and for some may wish to become female must lie within certain bounds are subjected to media manipulation in what is "the woman" or even "the "male". Come on and get real, look around and see who we and what our body shapes represent in society.
Is it delusional I do not think so. It is a belief in oneself and the ability to set a goal and achieve it no matter who tries to pull you down.
It is for yourself to be happy and it is for yourself to appreciate you despite what others feel or see. Maybe if we are over critical with ourselves then we may never shine as ourselves and in so we perceive what others do not even think hence we become people who never become who we really feel we could be.

[Inna]

Claire, good point and true. For the majority of trans community it isn't a choice but necessity and stress level associated with not blending in is extremely high. Most will tell you they don't care, or that in fact they soooo pass when one can tell otherwise, from a mile away. Hence even when after transition, suicide remains at gravely high percentage. It seems a self delusion but such would not make us feel so depressed and desperate, but it it a safety mechanism which still allows our feeling of self despite the obvious.

Unfortunately the road to passability, and I mean PASSABILITY, is paved with shame, pain of non acceptance, grief, regret and lots of monetary intervention. In fact if every transgirl had $60,000 put away or available for FFS there wouldn't be any non passable transgirls out there. I had been to a trans conference where I had observed variety of post-FFS girls and despite some of them still expressing quite a Truck driver stance, walk, and even voice their facial expression was gleaming female. Our brains are wired in such way to firstly recognize the first most important sex organ, and that is face, and after such recognition it is really hard to change someones determination about viewed individual even when expressing confusing mannerisms.