Interesting perspective on how we are viewed

[mercterr]

Today I was at the Superior Court in downtown Phoenix. I was a few places in line behind an older woman going through security when she spoke and I realized she was a man dressed as a woman. She was older and passed O.K. until you actually looked at her. If you passed her on a sidewalk and weren't paying attention you wouldn't notice she was a man, but if you looked at her with any attention, you could tell she was cross-dressed. I did not hear the beginning of her contact with security but she was arguing with them when I got into the building over their search procedure. They weren't doing anything different to her so I don't know if she started out aggressive with them. They were agitated with her and started speaking down to her and teasing her (not directly about the cross-dressing), not handling the situation very professionally. They did direct her to the part of the building she needed to go. When she left and got out of ear shot the two men and one woman guards all laughed. I followed her down a crowded hallway and jurors, lawyers and clerks who bothered to look at her did double takes and gave each other knowing smirks. As she passed a second security gate, the male guard there was talking to a lawyer and they both stopped mid sentence when she passed. As she got out of earshot, the guard told the lawyer "that was a double bagger". I finished my business and happened to exit the building just after her. She walked past a homeless man on the sidewalk and he blurted out, "I may be a crack head but at least I ain't that". I thought "jeeze, even the filthy homeless begging drug addict is glad he is not a cross-dresser". I'm not sure if I have a point with this, just an interesting perception I had today. I am out to those who I love the most. My wife is not taking it well but my son, sister and parents are fine with me. Makes me really question coming out any further.

[Adriennegrl]

I wouldn't let it sway you. Sounds like she had a chip on her shoulder that day, and that doesn't help anyone. If she was pleasant and smiled I wonder if she would've got that reaction from everyone? You know the saying, 'you can draw more flies to honey than vinegar' ;)

[Karren H]

We "perverts" are at the bottom of the socioaceptabilty scale!! I admit it I once told my mother that I was looking for money rather than confess I was borrowing lingerie! Even at a young age I knew it was better to be a thief than a perv! Lol.

[Kaz]

Good 'story' - it hits home for me and right at all my fears. I have met a lot of people who accept and want to engage with CDs and I have also met loads who don't notice. Then there are the rest... I guess the protagonist in question probably co-created the scenario that enfolded... ie their behaviour/attitude raised issues rather than supressed potential issues...?

Just a thought!

[mercterr]

She definitely seemed to have a chip on her shoulder with the first group of security, although I didn't see the beginning of their contact. Everything after that occurred around the corner from them as she just marched down the court hallways. She did walk like she was on a mission and that can draw attention to anyone. I was behind her so I couldn't see her expression so it may have been angry and drew more attention. Everyone was careful to wait until she was out of earshot to comment except the homeless guy. I was far enough behind to read the people then pass them as they made their comments. I guess they were careful enough to make their rude comments so she wouldn't hear them, but I got the full gist of their true feelings.

[Adriennegrl]

She definitely seemed to have a chip on her shoulder with the first group of security, although I didn't see the beginning of their contact. Everything after that occurred around the corner from them as she just marched down the court hallways. She did walk like she was on a mission and that can draw attention to anyone. I was behind her so I couldn't see her expression so it may have been angry and drew more attention. Everyone was careful to wait until she was out of earshot to comment except the homeless guy. I was far enough behind to read the people then pass them as they made their comments. I guess they were careful enough to make their rude comments so she wouldn't hear them, but I got the full gist of their true feelings.

Exactly, she had the chip from the first tassel w/ security and carried it throughout. If she was pleasant and nice, sure, some may still have made comments, but I'm guessing more would be pleasant, even behind her back.

Negative energy can be a harmful thing.

[AllieSF]

Well, she may have been a transsexual and not just a CD like me. Any type of confrontation or negative comment might set someone off, and for a transgendered that is just cause. I have a tough skin and so far my deteriorating hearing has helped me literally not hear comments, if any were made. It is a shame that these so called professionals do not know how to live up to that title.

[Sara Jessica]

It is a shame that these so called professionals do not know how to live up to that title.

This is so true.

The story is a great example of what can happen in our wake.

[Nicole Erin]

Men that are secure in their masculinity are not going to be bothered by a TG.
I know this cause I work with a lot of men and I can easily tell the ones who are secure or not. The "tough guys" tend to avoid me or try ti act like I am not there. The secure men treat me just like any other human being.

Now with that - it was a court house. There are a lot of attorneys and rent-a-cops who are just not secure enough in their masculinity to tolerate a TG. Not all the time tho cause my best friend is a rent-a-cop and he has no issues with me.

You know some of those over-paid attorneys have probably hired she-male escorts to dominate them. "Oh Mistress HunGoddess, please don;t paddle my helpless butt or humiliate my tiny winky again!" Punks.

Would you like to hear some of the graphic reasons I do not worry about what insecure men think of me?

[docrobbysherry]

At least there was in your story for ME!:brolleyes:

Why go out in "vanilla public" dressed!?:eek:
When, I already generate PLENTY of flack in DRAB!?:devil:

I LOVE my closet!:hugs:

[Michaela42]

It sounds like another sad example of "you attract more flies with honey than you do with vinegar" to me. Either that or she was the type of person who was looking to make a scene; no defenses, all attack. Just my opinion though. Some people are just rude and that is how they are. I really feel sad for them, sometimes.

[CynthiaD]

I suspect the negative reactions were more due to the oddness of the situation than to any inherent prejudice. I'll bet that the reactions would have been the same if the person in question had been wearing a Superman costume instead of a dress. If CD's were a common sight, I doubt if anyone would have given her a second thought.

On the other hand, I'm quite content dressing in private, so I guess I'm not helping any.

CK

[Jorja]

So I am curious mercterr, were you dressed at the time? From your OP I take it you were not. It could have been interesting though.

[mercterr]

I was not cross-dressed. Just a sympathetic observer blending in and observing. Had the guards crossed a line and shown open discrimination, I would have called them out on their lack of professionalism. To me they were reacting to a difficult customer. Only after she was out of earshot did they laugh at her.

[Cynthia Anne]

Why let it bother you! No one is going to ruin my perfect day when I'm dressed and out! That situation is not the rule of thumb by far! I find most people to be polite! Ignor fools or become one!

[Michelle 51]

If you knew what people were saying behind our backs out in public you'd probably not go out in femme.Most people are polite enough not to comment where we an hear them but just because they don't shouldn't be mistaken for the fact that they didn't realise we're crossdressers.You have to go do your thing and forget what people think.

[IMkrystal]

I was not cross-dressed. Just a sympathetic observer blending in and observing. Had the guards crossed a line and shown open discrimination, I would have called them out on their lack of professionalism. To me they were reacting to a difficult customer. Only after she was out of earshot did they laugh at her.

From all the responses to this thread, the blame is being placed on the individual not the inappropriate responses of others. If this person was of another minority would you still blame the individual?

[Intertwined]

Last time I went to Jury duty, I went in my "50/50" black long sleeve male shirt, black tie, black leather corset, black floor length combat/punk skirt with lost of buckles and D-rings and spike high heels.

As I went through the metal dector, of course it goes off, the sherrif at the other side of the detector, looks at me, cocks his head, grins and says " O.K., lift it ", because of the heavy material and length of the skirt, I could have easily hidden a shot gun under it.

I have no doupt that I gave those sherrifs something to talk about (may be laugh about) all day, and honestly, I think thats cool.

As for what happen to the person in your post, I agree with the others, having a chip on your shoulder just makes things worse, but, most of what happen and was said by others, is to be expected, we are not the norm.

As for the comment the homeless guy made "I may be a crack head but at least I ain't that". I probably would have got in his face and said " I may wear a dress, but atleast I don't look... (sniff snif) and ah.. (snif snif) smell like corps"

[t-girlxsophie]

I wonder how lilly white these folk really are themselves,Im sure theres lots of ppl hiding their own filthy little secrets

As for the homeless,crack addict,aye very good,he's bottom of the pile and in no way able to judge anyone,the waster

Sophie

[SuzanneBender]

(Authors note: Please forgive me if I offend. I hold police and security personnel in the highest regards. I even know a few lawyers that I actually like more than crackheads. I just dislike the unprofessional members of those career fields. Yes there is nothing worse than an unprofessional homeless crackhead) Now on with the post...

Homeless crackhead on the street...we see them everywhere.
Stressed out lawyers in cheap suits...we see them all too often.
Security guards wishing they had the stuff to be police officers or police officers stuck doing security in a building when they would rather be on the street...can see them in any courthouse.
Older crossdresser that is calling attention to herself...Woah Nelly! Now there is something you don't see everyday.

We are still an anomaly that many in our society have yet to acknowledge let alone understand. We don't fit in. It stinks and its wrong, but unfortunately, even in a courthouse full of adults, junior high rules still apply. The good news is Junior High was years ago for me and a lesson I learned is I really don't want to hang out with those that don't like others because they don't fit into their homogenized, pasteurized, standardized expectations of normalcy. Most of those people were so closed minded they became unprofessional security guards, lawyers in bad suits, and it think even a few have become homeless crackheads.

It sounds from your telling of the story that this lady was noticed by most everyone in the place, but I am sure that is not the case. For every person that made a comment there were probably ten that said nothing and didn't care and I would bet there would be at least one that found the others behavior appalling.

Sara is right. When we are out and we are noticed we leave a big wake, but it is not always a wake bubbling with negativity. Most times it is the exact opposite. The lesson to take from this is we are ambassadors of our "minority" when we are out. Be proud. Hold your head up high if you are recognized. Let the world understand that you have just as much right to be there as the next person, but treat others with the respect you want. Then maybe the next time someone leaves a wake there will be one less person playing sophomoric games; one or two more people paying little or no attention; and yes, maybe even one more thinking positive thoughts about the wonderful person leaving the wake.

[Adriennegrl]

From all the responses to this thread, the blame is being placed on the individual not the inappropriate responses of others. If this person was of another minority you still blame the individual?

Very good point. I wasn't thinking of that at first but from a basic human standpoint of being pleasant vs not, however, this does not excuse their reactions/negative remarks, you are right. She could have been well justified to be upset. Unfortunately we're perceived by others on how we act and even though she may have been justified it didn't help her w/ the others she passed.

If she was being discriminated against at the security line, how could she be expected to act happy?! And if she put on a 'front of happiness' then their discrimination isn't being addressed. Certainly not fair either way it's chalked up.

[Paula_56]

This is a a great thread and topic thanks for posting.

This what I wonder are they all laughing behind mybacks???

[Annaliese2010]

Maybe she needs a good make-over? We are generally responsible for the image we project and the reactions we elicit. Being well rested in good health aspiring to be the best we can - whatever that means to an individual - always shines through and makes such rude behavior less likely. IMHO..... :)

[PretzelGirl]

And she went home and said to a friend, "I passed".

There is a lot to take from this story. First, I don't think I would want to get into a tiff with an authority figure anywhere while dressed. Why invite trouble? Second, we do get by on our attitude as we move along and interact with people. If you are storming through an area, people just tend to scrutinize you more because the negativity does attract attention.

But one thing I find most interesting is that outside of the homeless gentleman, all the comments were after she moved on. So did she see any heads move or hear anything? Sound like any of the stories that we hear on this forum that we go somewhere and no one comments? Now she did draw attention and likely instilled a negative reaction in those around her. But it can make you think a little more about what comments might be out there after you move on. Then you have to ask if you really care and that is what it comes down to.

[daphne g]

hi all
a couple of years back before i told my gf about my crossdressing,we were sitting with a group of friends
and my girl was telling the story of her ex husband being gay
and one of the other girls asked if he wore her clothes
huh? i thought,and then she said ,well at least he wasnt a pervert then.
blimey ,that was really heavy

[Christinedreamer]

Around my area here in SoCal we have a couple older CDs who always elicit snide comments but they definitely draw attention from not dressing their age but more like ****ty teenyboppers. A fifty+ man trying to look reasonably presentable does NOT need to be wearing a way too short denim skirt, Dolly Parton platinum wig, huge bullet boobs, 4 inch heels and enough warpaint to slather 4 drag queens.

If you choose to appear that way be prepared for the comments. HOWEVER we have one that I see now and then who always dresses sharp but age appropriate and comports in a most ladylike manner. It is rather apparent she is a he but I have never seen or heard anyone be anything but very courteous and a couple waitresses at the local Denny's make a point to say hi and be very friendly and chatty.

[donnalee]

I wouldn't let it sway you. Sounds like she had a chip on her shoulder that day, and that doesn't help anyone. If she was pleasant and smiled I wonder if she would've got that reaction from everyone? You know the saying, 'you can draw more flies to honey than vinegar' ;) Why would you want to draw flies?
:battingeyelashes:

[TGMarla]

A few things come to mind here:

If you pick a fight, you're likely to get one. Furthermore, if you pick a fight, you're well advised to not pick one with a uniformed security guard or policeman.

There is a parable I've read having to do with one of my favorite historical figures, Benjamin Disraeli, who was Prime Minister of England for a spell during the reign of Queen Victoria. Disraeli was jewish, by the way. Several gentlemen were having a discussion when one asks the question, "What is a kike? Disraeli pipes up, "A kike is a jewish gentleman who has just left the room."

We may do well out in public, and not cause much of a stir. But once we're out of earshot, the slander no doubt begins. We are still a social pariah, and not generally accepted by the public. People are usually too polite to cause a problem, but that's not to say a problem doesn't exist in their minds. Even those who smile at you to your face may well slander you when you're not around.

[Melody Moore]

First of all I don't think anyone can generalise and say for sure that this transgendered 'woman'
was a cross-dresser or a transsexual. But generally transsexuals have a better attitude than this
and have some ideas about how to handle themselves in public because this is vital in passing.

It sounds to me like this person has issues and has no idea about how to handle themselves
when out in public - so on the basis of that I am going to assume that this person is most
likely a CDer and NOT a transsexual, even though that comment might upset some people here.

This thread is a perfect example (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?158644-RLE-and-passability) of how we help each other in the transsexual community to
pass & be acceptable in public WITHOUT drawing unwanted attention to ourselves. But from
the way this transgendered woman handled herself it appears to me that she has little to no
understanding or knowledge about how a transsexual woman should handle herself in public.

This is interesting yes, because it only endorses what we try to teach each other about
being accepted in society. So I think this is a poor example about how we are perceived
in public because I can guarantee that we all don't get such a negative & bad reaction.

[ReineD]

If you passed her on a sidewalk and weren't paying attention you wouldn't notice she was a man, but if you looked at her with any attention, you could tell she was cross-dressed.

This rings true to me for most CDs. If the presentation is impeccable, there won't be any raised flags that will cause people to have a double take and pay attention to the details. But, even if the presentation is perfect, if someone is idly staring while sitting at a restaurant for example, there are just to many subtle physiological gender cues to escape notice, no matter how well done is the makeup and hair. And most everyone can tell for sure, once they interact directly with the CD in question.




This what I wonder are they all laughing behind mybacks???

It depends on the age group and backgrounds. I'd say it's a fair mix, with most of the "snickerers" not saying or doing anything until out of earshot. I've seen people stare, nudge each other and smile when they do notice, but there are a great deal more who just don't pay attention, providing the CD is dressed properly for the occasion.

I tend to prefer looking on the bright side (it makes me feel better), so when people do notice and stare, I tell myself they are not judging us but are instead curious and would welcome an opportunity to ask questions. But then, this is how I would react if I didn't know any CDs, and I think we all tend to read our own motives into other people.

Keep in mind though that the minute people interact with you, many times their initial impressions will dissipate. Talking to someone tends to dispel preconceived notions and it makes everything 'normal' somehow. It removes the mystery, since now you've become a real person who has touched their world, rather than remaining a stereotypical image in their mind's eye. Just the act of talking to you will help them walk away with the impression there are some nice people who do CD. It will remove the 'freakish' label, I think.

But, I think it is the rare CD indeed who can pass as a genetic woman at very close range, especially when talking to people.

[Sarah Doepner]

I'm with the group that is willing to go out occasionally, hopes to avoid being confronted directly and wanting to avoid collateral damage to others who crossdress. I do my best and know that I'm not going to pass under most circumstances, and am happy if I make it around the corner before the comments from the polite members of society gush forth. On the other hand, I can't see myself going to the court house, knowing I'll be passing through security and coming in contact with guards, lawyers, clerks and others, any and all who I might have to interact with. That tells me the person you followed was dressing for very different reasons than me. It that's the case, she had likely accumulated a lot more interactions with unapproving people than I have. The limited number of those in my life all put me on edge for an extended period and I just can't imagine what it would be like to face it on a regular basis. I hope she had plenty of positive experiences as well.

As for the comments you overheard and reactions you saw, I'm not surprised. We are still unusual to most people. Fictional crossdressers and the extreme bad examples are still the role model most people think of when they see one of us. I've worked with professionals in law enforcement who did well with TG people in person, but when they were back in what they thought was "safe" territory with their friends and co-workers, they were much more candid in their opinions. Until there is a more realistic model out there for the general public to think of, what you saw is what we get.

[Melody Moore]

I should have mentioned this earlier, but only last week I walked into my local courthouse to get copies
of my changed birth certificate ratified as true & correct copies to change my personal information with
the tax office. And I passed through security who were very pleasant towards me & when I seen the JP
inside she was also lovely towards me and she was the only person who had any clue I was transsexual.

Even my pharmacist loves me and too the point he gave me my last supply of hormones for free, so this
is why I say it is a pile of crap that society views us all in such a way. If you are an arsehole, then you
will be judged as being an arsehole, if you are a nice person who is polite & respectful, then you don't
have anything to to worry about. I have changed MANY people's attitudes towards transgendered people
and we must never forget that we are all ambassadors of our own cause. Personally if I seen a tranny
behaving, I would feel the same way as these other guys did and would most likely say something to them
as well about that. It has happened before with a local trans-girl who brought lots of shame on our local
community & I said something to her. So if I see it, it will certainly happen again because of how they are
setting a bad example for the rest of the community. The girl I was talking about has really got herself a
bad name now over her actions where she ploughed a car into the front of a bar & hurt one of her best
friends who is a woman I also personally know - See: http://www.cairns.com.au/article/2010/07/09/117341_local-news.html

[ReineD]

she was also lovely towards me and she was the only person who had any clue I was transsexual.

Even my pharmacist loves me and too the point he gave me my last supply of hormones for free, so this is why I say it is a pile of crap that society views us all in such a way.

Just curious, Melody, don't you think that TSs on hormones would have altered their appearance enough so as to not have it be so apparent at close range they are birth males?

CDs like my SO don't take hormones, so people do know when they talk to her or if they look at her closely, she is not a birth female. And this is when the "judging" comes in if they have issues with it, even if they keep their opinions to themselves when she is in earshot.

[Melody Moore]

Just curious, Melody, don't you think that TSs on hormones would have altered their appearance enough so as to not have it be so apparent at close range they are birth males?
Reine, I know this and this was also basically addressed in my very first post, along with the statement I
made that noone can generalise and know for sure that this person is a cross-dresser or a transsexual.
I also said that I was assuming that this person was a crossdresser based on what I know about the TG
community.

Last Saturday night I met a cross-dresser and for someone who is not on hormones he looked really nice
and he told me that his experiences were all very positive and everyone thought he was a natal female.

If anything is going to get you clocked in public, then bringing, unwanted negative attention to yourself
is the right way to go about it. If you are a nice person, then people don't have negative thoughts & form
bad opinions about us. Go to a drag show and see how the public loves the cross-dressers there, so you
see that not everyone is viewed in such a negative way, in fact I know straight people who love us all ;)

[Noemi]

I always am so proud of us that go out dressed or have transitioned. That woman showing up dressed says more than all those narrow folks can ever even think. I have had similar experiences as an observer, just like you were. I live right outside NYC so there is a decent amount of gender bending, especially since the marriage thing, in some ways the closet has been opened. But people are still cruel and foolish, and well, dumb.
It comes down to individual dignity. That crack head, could have behaved with compassion instead of continuing to run from life. The people in the halls had the choice to think higher thoughts, perhaps to notice the universe expressing itself before their eyes. Hello......its not all polarized, humans are male >>>>>><<<<<<female and everything in between.

[ReineD]

If anything is going to get you clocked in public, then bringing, unwanted negative attention to yourself
is the right way to go about it. If you are a nice person, then people don't have negative thoughts & form
bad opinions about us.

My SO frequently goes out dressed. She's been doing this for years. Of all the places she goes to, there are maybe a dozen or so where she is a regular and the people know her well. She presents beautifully, she doesn't have an overly strong male physiognomy, she has small hands and feet, and her natural hair is mid back length. She is well liked by some of the people she interacts with regularly. She has no chip on her shoulder, she is not shy nor is she the least bit ashamed.

But, we still get clocked, and people still stare stupidly sometimes. It's the nature of the beast. A genetic male, no matter how well dressed and groomed, will get read once people start paying attention, especially if he interacts with people. People don't say mean things to us although I've stared down several people whose smirks I didn't like, and I'm sure we've been the topic of many a dinner conversation. One thing that is almost guaranteed with us, which I quite enjoy: we are most always remembered, even if we've only been there once several months before. lol. I don't think it is because of our natural magnetism. :)

[Melody Moore]

That crack head, could have behaved with compassion instead of continuing to run from life.
Talk to any clinical pyschologist and they will tell you that those that have something to say often have the biggest issues.

Much like the most homophobic & transphobic of people are often repressing their own issues with their gender identity &
sexuality. I have outed & exposed a few people through this because they revealed to me who they were through their
very own bad behaviour. :D

This crack head is a perfect example and is in no position to talk - the CDer is out & proud and
being true to themselves whereas the crackhead uses drugs to try & escape his truthful reality. :heehee:

[t-girlxsophie]

My SO frequently goes out dressed. She's been doing this for years. Of all the places she goes to, there are maybe a dozen or so where she is a regular and the people know her well. She presents beautifully, she doesn't have an overly strong male physiognomy, she has small hands and feet, and her natural hair is mid back length. She is well liked by some of the people she interacts with regularly. She has no chip on her shoulder, she is not shy nor is she the least bit ashamed.

But, we still get clocked, and people still stare stupidly sometimes. It's the nature of the beast. A genetic male, no matter how well dressed and groomed, will get read once people start paying attention, especially if he interacts with people. People don't say mean things to us although I've stared down several people whose smirks I didn't like, and I'm sure we've been the topic of many a dinner conversation. One thing that is almost guaranteed with us, which I quite enjoy: we are most always remembered, even if we've only been there once several months before. lol. I don't think it is because of our natural magnetism. :)

I love the support you have for your SO when your out Reine,and can Imagine the look you give the starers must strike fear in them,The first time I went out with my Wife dressed,I had fear that any negativity would hurt or scare her,but she,like yourself is in many ways stronger than I am in public

Sophie

[Tess]

We may do well out in public, and not cause much of a stir. But once we're out of earshot, the slander no doubt begins. We are still a social pariah, and not generally accepted by the public. People are usually too polite to cause a problem, but that's not to say a problem doesn't exist in their minds. Even those who smile at you to your face may well slander you when you're not around.

In order to be slander it must be false. I'm not sure what the correct term should be in this case but it isn't slander if they are only commenting on the fact it is a guy in a dress.

My experience is that what the OP witnessed was more extreme than the real world but not much. My own observations is that a crossdresser can get by if people aren't paying attention but if they notice they will react...stare, nudge a companion, smile. An ill mannered person may do more but I haven't observed that. I accept the world the way it is and don't have expectations for unreasonable positive changes toward crossdressers.

[ReineD]

I love the support you have for your SO when your out Reine,and can Imagine the look you give the starers must strike fear in them,

It was hard for me too at first, but I did develop a tougher skin. And like I said earlier, I don't assume anymore that everyone who stares, stares with judgment. This does make me feel a lot better, no matter what their motives are for staring. :)

As to the support, I don't think I'm doing anything out of the ordinary by supporting the CDing. My SO is who she is, I am who I am, and we both navigate through life as best we can as a couple. We both support each other. :hugs:

[kendra_gurl]

Perhaps if a homeless crack head read her as she passed, she might not have passed very well to anyone. It's been mentioned many times on these threads by many here that they know they can't pass so they stay at home.
Personally I applaud those who can be honest with themselves and not put themselves in those situations.

Perhaps next time I go out I'll have my wife walk 20 feet behind me to hear what people are really saying about me.

[kimdl93]

....

Perhaps next time I go out I'll have my wife walk 20 feet behind me to hear what people are really saying about me.

To use an old friend's favorite quote: "other peoples' opinion of me is none of my business"

But seriously, Kendra, your wife may hear some interesting comments, but I expect that the vast majority would be favorable.

[Kaitlyn26]

Exactly, she had the chip from the first tassel w/ security and carried it throughout. If she was pleasant and nice, sure, some may still have made comments, but I'm guessing more would be pleasant, even behind her back.

Negative energy can be a harmful thing.

All the smiling and positive energy in the world can't make pigs fly, or assholes shut their mouths. Just something to think about before you go tooting off anything that someone on the internet told you.

Also, the oldest and most hurtful insult a homeless person can ever give someone is to say "I might be a crackhead but at least I ain't that". It's an old insult and can be used against anyone.

[Melody Moore]

To use an old friend's favorite quote: "other peoples' opinion of me is none of my business"

But seriously, Kendra, your wife may hear some interesting comments, but I expect that the vast majority would be favorable.

Well said Kim!

And yes you are right, people will say very favourable things about anyone who has the
conviction to really be themselves when they walk tall, holding their heads high with a smile.

Some woman about about 2 months ago caused a scene in a restaurant over me after trying to
stare me down for over 15 minutes, but I don't think she realised when she did that what she
was setting herself up for. Patrons in the restaurant took more notice of her than they ever
did with me and when she finally opened her mouth all hell broke lose. I didn't say a single word
but all my friends & everyone else seated around surely did she was forced to leave the restaurant.

I call this a very favourable response because it shows that there is zero tolerance for discrimination,
vilification & homo/transphobia in my local community. I really wished all you people could just move to
Cairns & experience it.

What many transgender folk fear about being out in society is their very own shadows. So if you
want to experience real freedom & peace in your life then seek help & learn to overcome your fears.

[suzy1]

There are those that are in the “we are accepted by most of the people” camp. And the ones that are in the “we are not” camp. I know which one I am in.
Will it ever be resolved? Does it really matter?
How about all the members that have SOs have them walk a little bit behind, listen to the comments and make a note of the looks and expressions on others faces.
And then tell us all here honestly what the result was.
The two members here that seem to be at the two extremes of the debate are melody Moore and me.
Don’t get me wrong Melody, I think your stand on this is impressive and commendable.
But it would be interesting to see the result.

SUZY

[Melody Moore]

Suzy, the other thing you have to take into account is that I live in one of the most popular tourist
destinations in Australia where is it multi-cultural, and diversity is something that makes this place so
colourful & attractive to so many people. I also believe it is a lot more non-discriminatory here than
anywhere else. Where you live in a very conservative country. There is the odd bit of homophobia
& transphobia about, but it is on the way out here and if you don't believe me, then check this article
out that appeared in today's paper: http://www.cairns.com.au/article/2011/08/23/179211_local-news.html (http://www.cairns.com.au/article/2011/08/23/179211_local-news.html)

You will also note that I have commented on this article and not only that I was also asked by a member
of the Cairns Post staff today if I would talk to Gavin King the writer about my experiences here in Cairns.

Also our local Mayor, Mrs Val Schier & also our local Federal Member of Parliament Warren Entsch are both
very LGBT friendly people. I have talked to Mr Entsch a few times about issues affecting our community &
this should give you some idea on his response: http://www.cairns.com.au/article/2010/11/16/135481_local-news.html

Also see: http://www.warrenentsch.com.au/Media/Speeches/tabid/74/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/19/Same-Sex-Marraige-Bandt-Motion-House-of-Reps-Chamber.aspx

Maybe you should pay us a visit down-under one day so you can experience this all for yourself,
We have lots of LGBT friendly places you can stay like, Turtle Cove (http://www.turtlecove.com) & Skinny Dips (http://www.skinnydips.com.au/) Resorts etc. ;)

If you hide in the closet then people don't get to know us & understand us and
therefore they will always fear us, because people only fear what they don't
know or understand - we are all advocates for our own cause if we want to be. :D

[Shelly67]

I've been seriously contemplating on why such events happen in our lives , but more importantly why we are NOT accepted in general . There are so many threads over the years where the name pervert , freak , weirdo pops up . Obviously such labels are based through misunderstanding . Personalities are ignored when such names are used , but then ( try to consider this with an open mind ) can it be we in our own conciousness we are forgetting one thing ? Could it be we are percieved as people who are doing nothing more than decieve ? Deception based on a sexual desire ? I mean , honestly , try to consider , transexuals are understood ( quite rightly so ) due to medical fact . Crossdressers are viewed in a negative light ( be honest now - we've all heard such comments personally either at work or in company at sometime ) as nothing more than men going out dressed as women seeking sex with the same gender . I really think it's all based on the deception issue .Or that we are gay and in denial . No one likes trickery , and dare I say it , for those who have been discovered out in public dressed , then perhaps thats the reasons on why verbal abuse or even at worst violence has occurred ? Its wrong , totally wrong , but of course no one likes a cheater - even whilst blind in ignorance . Do they ?
What really refreshens the tag " crossdresser " are people like Eddie Izzard . The man has a cult following , growing in popularity . But then he prefers the stage than the street or club , maybe that has something to do with it . I think over the years , no matter if you are a cd who goes out , stays home in secret , whatever , there has to be one thing generally agreed on . We've all HAD to grow a thick skin . And as for our partners , well it must be an awful weight for them at times , considering just how far we take our dressing considering the reactions that often arise.
And that is exactly what we hate , the cold stark reality that those who choose not to accept a person , no matter creed , colour or gender are DECIEVING themselves of a chance to know a character unique.There are so many different walks of life , but to understand any of them then communication must be the key to enlightenment . For all parties .
I just hope , that in this day and age , crossdressing is starting to come foward openly and will one day be understood and NOT labelled as in some circumstances as a mental illness , because in SOME countries of the world thats how its regarded . But in others ..... it becomes an almost religious respective wonderment .
We are just people really .

[Melody Moore]

I mean , honestly , try to consider , transexuals are understood ( quite rightly so ) due to medical fact . Crossdressers are viewed in a negative light ( be honest now - we've all heard such comments personally either at work or in company at sometime ) as nothing more than men going out dressed as women seeking sex with the same gender .

Shelly,

Like I just said, people only fear what they don't know & don't understand - the problem with the crossdressing
community is that many of you hide in the closet & this is something I am also tackling on a local level to try &
encourage more crossdressers to come out. Because when society realises how many of us really do exist, then
policy & attitudes will change - I have just proved that in the links I have just posted - I urge you to read them!

Transsexuals are better understood because to have a life we have to be able to get out in society
and you cannot hide who you are once you start taking hormones & they produce feminising effects.
You have to be able to eat & cloth yourself etc., and you cannot do that by hiding away all of the time.

So with that people do get to know us a little better, but this is still a problem because many TS folk
like to also be completely stealth. Just last night I ran into another friend I haven't seen since I started
my transition a year ago, but he didn't freak out at all, instead he was really supportive of me & who I am.

[Shelly67]

I applaud your friend for showing such support . In this day and age we can truely count how many real friends we have on one hand . I'll read your posts later , as right now I'm a little busy decorating . However , in short , I suppose both trans and crossdressers will choose to either remain privately hidden away or come out totally to the world for various reasons , perhaps locations are a reason . It's just a shame that even today there are certain walks of life in different countries , towns ect that will make negative rude remarks of a persons lifestyle. You would have thought over time would have moved things on a bit ..... but then racism is still rife too ....
Sometimes it has to be realised , the human race reflects a nature akin to creatures of darkness .
I hope in time every person , regardless of character , sexuality , creed , colour and dare I say it religious belief becomes a unity of understanding peace . However , we are all driven by an unatural consumer lifestyle , that ,now in it's greed see's the poor suffer and starve , the needy struggle and then theres those who'll commit acts of ignorance in the face of wealth and smugness . And I consider it's getting worse .
oh Bl**dy hell ....... now I've started . Think I'd better go back to my decorating .
Warm wishe's to you Melody x
Good thread .

[ReineD]

And yes you are right, people will say very favourable things about anyone who has the
conviction to really be themselves when they walk tall, holding their heads high with a smile.

This is the way I've perceived the spectrum of general society's acceptance/tolerance of gender presentation variance (I exclude the TSs who are stealth, since obviously no one knows they were once genetic males):

Few people will actively support and champion it. Those who do tend to be a fraction of the spouses and loved ones/good friends of gender variant people, and of course the trans people themselves. The vast balance of people, the majority, will fall into two camps: those who are politically correct and support it in principle as long as it is "not in my back yard" meaning their own family members or friends, in other words they'll think it's "cool" as long as it stays at arm's length and does not touch their lives directly, and those who merely tolerate it. This latter group are the ones who stare and when caught may give a polite smile, but who do smirk or nudge and smile when out of eyesight and earshot. And then there is the small minority (or perhaps not so small) at the other end who find gender variance disdainful.

Perception and feeling about gender and sexuality runs deep, as deep as fundamental religious beliefs. Seeing a trans person who stands tall vs. one who doesn't stand so tall will not fundamentally change someone's beliefs about this. It will take a lot more than that, such as changing laws, more education in schools, changing the portrayal in the media, and lots more people both TS and CD coming to the public eye in a favorable light.

Melody, you've posted some good newspaper articles about groups in Austratia who are actively fighting for recognition of gay marriages. This is good, and we have similar groups here. But, we also have groups who are adamantly against this, just as you have in Australia:

http://www.cairns.com.au/article/2011/08/17/178515_local-news.html

Also, the fact that these groups are fighting so hard for gay rights indicates there is a large segment of the population that is against this, else there would not be such a need for advocacy. And besides, acceptance of gays and gay rights is much more widespread than gender variance, sadly. I'm not saying this will not change in the future, just saying it is the way it is right now.

Melody, I'm not arguing with you about the way it should be. What I'm saying is, we are not there.

[Melody Moore]

Reine, we all know about our local bogan leader, Mr Katter & his tiny group of rednecks.

But don't let that article mislead you, because did you also see the last paragraph in that article?

A new poll has found that 53 per cent of Christians in Australia believe same
sex couples should be allowed to marry, while 41 per cent were opposed.

This clearly puts Mr Katter offside & clearly in the minority - we also have our PRIDE festival
next weekend which always recruits lots more public support, so the times are a changing hun ;)

[ReineD]

Melody, again, acceptance of same sex couples is not at all the same as acceptance of gender variance, even among the same sex men who wish to marry. Have you read the threads about the gay community's acceptance of transpersons? Sadly, the T part of the GLBTQI community is sorely lagging behind, as you well know. And again, I'm not saying we should all accept this, of course we should do what we can to continue to educate as outlined in my post above.

But I am saying we are not there yet, as witnessed by the hundreds of experiences posted daily in this forum. To pretend that our current reality is different is to be misleading, I think.

And if you go back and read the main point in my prior post, a TG walking tall and proud will not change someone's fundamental beliefs about gender. It will take much, much more than that.

[Melody Moore]

Reine, the same sex marriage debate is just one of the hot potatoes the government is trying to deal with right
now. The Australian Defence forces were forced to change their policies & allow transgender people to serve after
Australian Army Captain Bridget Clinch put up the best argument every for policy change just last year. See:
http://www.smh.com.au/national/sexchange-soldier-forces-army-to-scrap-transgender-policy-20101204-18ks9.html

In addition to this there is a whole new set of reforms going on in many areas of the government
at the moment to safeguard the rights of the gender and/or sexual diverse Australians. This came
about after our government had it's hand virtually forced by the Human Rights Commission in 2009.
See the Sex Files: http://www.humanrights.gov.au/genderdiversity/sex_files2009.html

[ReineD]

Melody, it is clear you feel a great deal of passion for the cause, you are committed to this, and it appears you are doing a wonderful job of spreading the news. I don't blame you for being enthusiastic, especially since you have a greater stake in this than someone who wishes to dress part time.

You and I may well be saying the same thing, except it doesn't get put into words in this thread. lol

You are writing about all the progress in the GLBTQI community in general, which I don't disagree with, while I am writing about where things stand right now with regards to just the "T" part. You are enmeshed in your world because of the work you do, while I and many others here live pretty much among cis people who do not share your enthusiasm.

Yes, there is a great deal of progress, but we are certainly not at a point where all "T"s can be out and proud without risking adverse consequences, no matter how much confidence they have, not when they work for largely conservative people and they live in largely unenlightened areas among people who know very little about the GLBTQI community.

I applaud the work you and others do, I try to do my small part too. But, we do live in different worlds. :hugs:

[sometimes_miss]

Today I was at the Superior Court in downtown Phoenix. I was a few places in line behind an older woman going through security when she spoke and I realized she was a man dressed as a woman. She was older and passed O.K. until you actually looked at her. If you passed her on a sidewalk and weren't paying attention you wouldn't notice she was a man, but if you looked at her with any attention, you could tell she was cross-dressed. I did not hear the beginning of her contact with security but she was arguing with them when I got into the building over their search procedure. They weren't doing anything different to her so I don't know if she started out aggressive with them. They were agitated with her and started speaking down to her and teasing her (not directly about the cross-dressing), not handling the situation very professionally. They did direct her to the part of the building she needed to go. When she left and got out of ear shot the two men and one woman guards all laughed. I followed her down a crowded hallway and jurors, lawyers and clerks who bothered to look at her did double takes and gave each other knowing smirks. As she passed a second security gate, the male guard there was talking to a lawyer and they both stopped mid sentence when she passed. As she got out of earshot, the guard told the lawyer "that was a double bagger". I finished my business and happened to exit the building just after her. She walked past a homeless man on the sidewalk and he blurted out, "I may be a crack head but at least I ain't that". I thought "jeeze, even the filthy homeless begging drug addict is glad he is not a cross-dresser". I'm not sure if I have a point with this, just an interesting perception I had today. I am out to those who I love the most. My wife is not taking it well but my son, sister and parents are fine with me. Makes me really question coming out any further.

I think this should be a wake up to anyone who thinks no one cares whether we cross dress or not. This is how most people respond. You may not be confronted with it directly, but what gets said 'out of earshot' can and often does affect your life.

[kendra_gurl]

Reine and Melody I submit to you both the following as a way to see that different world we live in. I feel its relevence here is the same depending on if you consider yourself transgendered or just a male who enjoys dressing. The problem is John Q Public does not know which you are when they see you


Optimistic or Pessimistic?

The popular understanding of the half full or half empty question is that the person who claims that the glass is half full is appreciating the fact that they are in possession of half a glass, whereas the person who claims the drink is half empty is bemoaning the fact that they have less than a full glass. Therefore, the person who claims the glass is half full is dubbed optimistic, whereas the person who claims the glass is half empty is dubbed pessimistic.




Differing Conceptions of the Glass

It was established earlier that the person who claims the glass is half empty is operating under the assumption, or has the conception of, a full glass. The person who claims the glass is half full is operating under the assumption, or has the conception of, a completely empty glass or no glass at all. Given that a full glass is obviously superior to a completely empty glass, it is the "half empty" individual who is expecting or imagining how things could be better. The "half full" individual is expecting or imagining how things could be worse.

[ReineD]

The popular understanding of the half full or half empty question ...

It's true there are many different ways to perceive someone's reactions to the things we do or say, and your analogy of looking at life as a glass half full or half empty is a good one.

When I go out and meet someone at a party, if they say hi with a big smile, I will walk away feeling they like me, rather than believing they were being hypocritical with their greeting. I guess I tend to look at life as a glass half full. :)

But, if I am in the next room and I overhear them saying something negative about me, then I will know they were being hypocritical and it is no longer a question of perception.

Because I am not TG, I've been in a position to observe people when we are out and I can see some reactions that are not shown to my SO. That said, as I mentioned earlier, the vast majority of people will not openly show their disapproval and there are also many more who will approve, some with the "NIMB" caveat, and some without. This is a far cry though, from saying that our world has become accepting enough for everyone to be out and proud, and not risk being thought of as [ ... fill in the blank with the variety of possible adjectives: odd, quirky, weird, no-way-in-hell-I-would-ever-let-my-daughter-date-you-but-other-than-that-you-are-OK]. Again, not everyone thinks this way, but it is foolish to believe that all it takes is a smile and a head held high in order to dispel some people's fundamental beliefs about gender variance.

[BLUE ORCHID]

I'm guessing that this "woman" is possibly a real pain in the a$$ in both modes of dress.

Orchid

[AllieSF]

What I find interesting in this thread is that the OP clearly stated that she did not hear the first initial exchange that the transgendered person (TS, CD, or .. ?) had with the entryway security people. So, all through this thread there seems to be some, not a lot, negative comments about her, where there is no basis for that assumption, in my opinion. Using our glass half full or half empty analogy, why not give her the benefit of the doubt instead of assuming that she caused the whole negative reactions chain of events? She actually may be a negative, glass half full, hard person to get along with, but no one knows that here for sure, especially our only eye witness the OP to this thread. If she had justification for her being upset, know one really knows. No one knows why she was even there either. Maybe it was to resolve an issue that has impacted her negatively and has something to do with her being transgendered. Maybe she was there to defend her rights to be her, which benefits all of us. We just do not know.

What other people think and do in our face or when our back is turned, or we are walking by, can happen to anyone who looks different from the people doing the looking and commenting. Hell, I have seen extremely obese people getting dirty looks, snickers and unwarranted comments. Same goes for someone with a physical deformity that does look strange when it is the first time seeing something or someone like that. My original post to this thread stated that when a professional, or so-called professional, who defends peoples rights makes those types of comments, I see that as very unprofessional. We should be criticizing these insensitive probably bigoted educated persons because they should know better and should keep their comments to themselves out of ear shot of others.

Regarding the effect of these negative comments on us if we are out in the real world dressed as the opposite gender, all I can say is that you should expect them and ignore them, period. I personally have never heard ANY negative comments (not that maybe my bad hearing wasn't to blame), have seen a lot of looking and intimate conversations most likely that were about me, and I really do not care that which I didn't hear. Why would I want to hear it? To get upset or to feel bad? If someone is looking for excuses for not going out, then spying on others as one of "us" passes by to see their reactions may work, or it may just be a futile effort if you watch long enough when the transgendered person does not leaves but stays around. I continually notice that those looks and shared secrets stop as quick as they start with only maybe some short glances my way as time goes by. Why? Because it has become a non-event to them and the newness and strangeness is starting to wear off.

Sometimes it sounds here like people won't go out because they don't want to hear, nor even know, that someone did or may have stared at them, maybe giggled and talked secretly with the person or persons that they are with. I understand your fears and discomforts, and please do whatever makes you feel comfortable. I do not think bad of you for this. I respect your decisions because I have no idea what may be behind them. However, that being said, for those that would like to try to go out into the real world one day, I can offer this comparison. Sometimes your fears and reluctance can be compared to going to a wedding where a lot of the attendees eventually join in the dancing. We all know that there are a lot of wallflowers out there that are not so good at dancing and really do not like that embarrassed feeling they get when they are on the dance floor. We have also heard that common saying that to enjoy, sometimes we really need to dance with wild abandonment as if no one was watching us. I like that saying and attitude, especially when it applies to going out dressed as the other gender. Try it it may just work for you.

[Kaitlyn26]

Differing Conceptions of the Glass

It was established earlier that the person who claims the glass is half empty is operating under the assumption, or has the conception of, a full glass. The person who claims the glass is half full is operating under the assumption, or has the conception of, a completely empty glass or no glass at all. Given that a full glass is obviously superior to a completely empty glass, it is the "half empty" individual who is expecting or imagining how things could be better. The "half full" individual is expecting or imagining how things could be worse.

Way to swim against the current! That's a great concept.



Again, not everyone thinks this way, but it is foolish to believe that all it takes is a smile and a head held high in order to dispel some people's fundamental beliefs about gender variance.

My experience exactly. In fact, a big smile and holding your head high will often (in my experience) make an unhappy person single you out as a means to brighten their day, or take attention away from their own short comings. "I may be a crackhead but at least I ain't that" comes to mind.

Example of one of my experiences. At work one evening a "redneck" family was shopping with their three children in my area. Their smallest child asked his mom if he could walk and not ride in the shopping cart. So the child's father lifted him out of the shopping cart. His feet got stuck in the cart because he was wearing larger boots and he started crying. So his father ripped his child's shoes off, took him out of the cart, and began beating the child in front of everyone. I glanced over at them as pretty much everyone in the store was doing. The mother got angry and told me "Mind your own business freak". From there she started calling me more names and claiming that she was a normal person and that I was an "abomination". She insisted that I leave her presence because I was setting a bad example for her children. I just rolled my eyes at her and left my area to go converse with an employee in another area for a while until she was gone. Upset me a bit but there was no way any good attitude was going to stop her from going on her "mission" to bother me.

Moral of the story? Those people with problems or that lack confidence will always take the chance to knock a happy person down if they can observe a means to hurt that person. Remember bullies in school? They don't ever stop bullying and the fastest way to attract a bully is to be happy. I don't think you should act sad all the time, but you have to realize that a simple smile won't resolve every encounter. Specifically, the worst kinds of encounters will not be resolved with a smile. If it was so, in retail you wouldn't see people with a smile plastered to their face right before they have to call the police. Which has happened before.



But, we still get clocked, and people still stare stupidly sometimes. It's the nature of the beast. A genetic male, no matter how well dressed and groomed, will get read once people start paying attention, especially if he interacts with people. People don't say mean things to us although I've stared down several people whose smirks I didn't like, and I'm sure we've been the topic of many a dinner conversation.

I've also had this happen in a restaurant. People think if they stop eating and stare at someone while smiling that they will draw attention to you. One person happens to see them smiling and staring at someone, they look and smile, it goes around the room until hopefully everyone is staring at the one person. It happened to me before I went out dressed as a girl. I was always mistaken for a girl as a child and I think these people were wrongly "clocking" me as female to male. :p So in order to deal with it, I tried to reverse it on them by getting everyone I'm with to stare and smile right back at them. It normally makes them stop. If I see someone doing that to someone else, I'll try to get the person's attention that they're staring at and see if I can help them stare the person down. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. I know one thing though, I can't stand it either.