RLE and passability

[Sara82]

I feel im ready to begin the RLE atleast for my own piece of mind, but im VERY concerned about my passability. After all whats the point if it if u are clocked everywhere u go.

So i guess my goal is to clear as much beard with laser treatment as i can, because no amount of makeup helps, also im not very confortable with wigs so i need to grow my hair out a bit. I feel these steps will improve my confidence and passability to a large extent and hopefully enough to make the RLE worth the effort.

Anyone else struggle with this???

[Stephenie S]

I think you are right on.

Get your beard removed (takes a couple of years for most people) grow your hair out, and go for it.

The amount of makeup needed to cover a beard is always obvious in the daylight. Wigs are hot, clumsy and insecure. Those two things will go a LONG way towards increasing your confidence.

The RLE ( I'm glad you didn't call it a TEST), is just that. An experience of living, and working, and socializing, full time. All the time. 24/7. You can't pass or fail. It's an experience. You might decide you don't like it. That's OK. That's why you do this.

Go for it.

Stephie

[renee k]

Clearing your beard will be a big help in passing. Also a few months of HRT is a plus. I wish, I could grow my own hair. But there's not much left on top to do so. So I settled on wearing wigs. If you get a good wig either monofilament or lace front, have it cut and styled to fit your facial features. You'll be fine. I go everywhere and don't get second looks. Looking at your avatar, your pretty passable now. Getting out and doing everyday things will build your confidence, isn't that what RLE is all about.

Renee

[Stephenie S]

I agree. And a good wig, although expensive, can be quite good looking.

S

[CharleneT]

One of the best things to help passing is confidence. Build that and a lot of the rest becomes easier and easier. The old saw is very true "the less you try, the more it works". Think of that as meaning if you are confident and relaxed, people will read you as you are presenting. Definitely try and get your beard cleared as much as you can. If laser is working for you - thank you lucky stars and make a big garland for Buddha !!

One thing about hair ... many women have short hair cuts. Go find a good stylist and get a consult about what works best for your face and style. It might be a short cut. I had long hair for a long time till a dear GG friend of mine convinced me to try shorter. Now I have it quite short and it works fine. Long is not automatically "female".


p.s. your two pictures are wonderful, you are quite lucky to have a face that is quite feminine to start with !! Good luck !!

[sandra-leigh]

I feel im ready to begin the RLE atleast for my own piece of mind, but im VERY concerned about my passability. After all whats the point if it if u are clocked everywhere u go.


The point is to live with it and learn from it and to go on with life. The point is to learn to accept yourself and the complete situation -- which at some point is going to include people (innocently or ignorantly or maliciously) outing you.

There is something in my face that gives me away quickly, even from a distance, no matter what makeup and wig I am wearing. What that is, I really don't know: if you take a picture of me without my glasses, people who have known my mother for years will confuse my picture with a picture of my mother. My personal RLE involves dealing with that situation routinely. For example, I can stand in front of a sales assistant with me in full femme mode and the SA will likely call me "Sir". Laser isn't going to fix that situation. Getting upset and feeling like a "failure" every time it happens isn't going to fix the situation. My personal RLE involves me adjusting my own attitude and learning to (mostly) not care. I now go out however I feel like or however I can get away with at the time (respecting my wife and not being officially out at work), and large numbers of people have seen me in both modes or in mixed mode. I am what I am, I am comfortable being what I am, and the people of the city barely notice.

There is "being clocked", and there is "being accepted as yourself". Some people define "passing" one way; some people define it the other. The "being accepted" version is a lot easier to achieve if you are not obsessed with the "being clocked" version.

[Schatten Lupus]

Getting your beard removed is one of the best things you can do to pass. As for hair, the length doesn't matter as much as the style of it. Plenty of women today have hair that is at a traditional male length, but it is styled in a feminine manner. Also mannerisms, walk, and talk, will up your passability more than most physical features will.

[thechic]

Your on the right track,hair removal is a must.its just to much effort to try to hide it and in the end it noticable anyway,best thing i ever did was hair removal,if you have a head of hair use it ,its nice not having to worry about a wig falling off and its cooler with out one in summer.

[Amber99]

I don't think anybody would clock you on that picture!

[kellycan27]

I agree.. hair removal and hair style are going to go a long way in your presentation. You are young, petite, and have a pretty decent feminine quality about you face ( and a way cute little body). You have a leg up, and IMPO you have nowhere to go but up.
When you say "pass", I am assuming that you measn pass... for a woman. If you use passing in this context ( being taked for a woman) once again I am going to have to take exception to the " self confidence and attitude" will help you pass team. It may help you cope with the rigors of being about in public, but in and of it's self.. it's NOT going to make people think that you are in fact a woman. That's just silly... you have to have a heck of a lot more working for you then that. And you my friend ..have it!
Reach for the stars!

Kelly

[Sara82]

Thx everyone for the encouragement. Kelly i totally agree that the "its all in your attidtude" just doesnt work for me. I feel thats not the RLE atleast for me. I feel to truly blend into society for me is the key. I have alot to learn tho, my mannerisms and male behaviors i feel need to be unlearned which seems challenging even for my age. My voice needs work as well... But one step at a time.

[Louise C]

I agree about the hair, especially on the 'lectro front.

This is the main thing that holds me back most of the time. I'm not a lover of heavy make up (although thats only my personal preference) so find the shadow really gets me down at times, but after a year of treatment it's starting to thin out and as i was beginning to go grey before i started, it shows less now than when i just had darker hair on my chops. Another few months and i reckon i'll nearly be there....

From your picture, i don't see you having any trouble passing in the looks dept.

Good luck to you!

[Kaz]

Go for it! I was on a losing ticket from the start as by 21 my hairline was receding and by 28 I had very little up top. At this stage my beard was quite light but now it is full on! So this is not a road I can take. But if you can... and you wish to... do it! I would love to!

[StephanieC]

I would agree: zapping the facial hair and growing out the top hair are two of the biggest items, with hormones giving an assist. I'm coming up on my first year anniversary for laser and had my hair long for over 2 years.

Good luck!

-stephani

[Jessinthesprings]

baseing solely on your avatar I'd say the need for a wig is irrelivent after about 8 months of grow outof my own hair i cleaned it up a little and then styled it short and threw the wig away... it was a bit of a security blanket just like the fake boobs and all.

[CharleneT]

Thx everyone for the encouragement. Kelly i totally agree that the "its all in your attidtude" just doesnt work for me. I feel thats not the RLE atleast for me. I feel to truly blend into society for me is the key. I have alot to learn tho, my mannerisms and male behaviors i feel need to be unlearned which seems challenging even for my age. My voice needs work as well... But one step at a time.

I am sorry if I seemed to say that confidence or attitude was some sort of "be it all" of passing. It isn't, of course ;) I mentioned it because you asked about things to help build confidence in passing. I do stand behind the idea that passing is not just looks.

[Melody Moore]

I do stand behind the idea that passing is not just looks.

If it looks like a duck & quacks like a duck, it usually is..... a duck! :heehee:

So if you present yourself as a woman & you communicate
as a woman, it usually means that you are a woman right?

In most cases usually the way that we communicate ourselves will get us 'clocked' as you put it,
more than anything else we do to feminise ourselves and this is one issue that has not even been
addressed on one single occasion yet in this thread. But I believe communication is our greatest
asset when it comes to passing and being accepted as a female and will do a lot more for us to be
accepted as women than FFS will ever do. If you are surprised about this then don't think you are
alone, because this surprised me as well

What surprised me here was & what many people don't understand about communication is that verbal or
spoken communication only plays a 7% role in how we communicate with other people. The other 93% of
the way we communicate is unspoken & completely non-verbal - body language, hand gestures, gait, facial
expressions etc. And this is something I found out about only a few months ago when I was having vocal
feminisation training.

I am not saying that laser treatment, long hair, clothing, make up & jewellery even having breasts don't play
any part in helping us pass as females. But each of those cosmetic components only plays a very tiny part or
percentage in how we communicate to other people & how they will see us. The reason I say this is because
I know lots of women that don't have long hair, have small breasts, some are flat chested, some don't wear
make up & jewellery and some lesbian girls I know tick all these boxes & including not wearing female clothing.
Some look very masculine, but you cannot mistake them for being a male because of their non-verbal methods
of communication like body language, gait, hand gestures, facial expressions etc.

So how much of a role do the cosmetic things play in how we pass & are accepted
& respected in society, as opposed to how well we really do communicate ourselves?

So I also have to agree with what Charlene has said here.

[Sara82]

melody and charlene, thank you for your insights, i do agree that all the cosmetic things you mentioned do not "Make a woman", but for me personally, to have that confidence i feel i need to aesthetically pass as much as possible. and maybe ill never get there without certain facial surgery. but i know things like communication and attitude along with behaviors, body language, and voice all are just as important.

How did most of your deal with your RLE when you knew that maybe physically you weren't passable yet? Did you find yourselves hiding from certain places, or certain social gatherings? Or did you continue to always do the same things as you did prior to transitioning?

[noeleena]

Hi Saya

I did not do R L E or had meds or lazer i did try it & gave up as a no go. I did wear for 11 years a wig , not any more & no hair a skin head if you like , fact is i never wore womens clothes ether, just at home for two years & during that time i brought clothes in advance of when i was going to give up any male clothes meds over 6 years now ,surgery 4 years ago.

I did things differently because im not trans . so did not need to go through the hoops like many trans do. tho some things are the same tho my surgery is different ,

I was born different so what ever i did was not the same as most so being intersexed has helped me in so many ways ,through my life,
Of cause as a woman who is different im just accepted, my age has allso seen to that , & i have respect from many qurters & im acceped as a woman other wise i would not be accepted in to women only groups not just in N Z around the world as well.

As to my looks my pic tells all. & thats how im seen every day , i do change my clothes of cause. because my facial looks are more male it makes no difference because as my women friends have said we dont all look the same & some of us are more masculine so its not a problem if it was i would not be doing what i do. plain & simple ,

im accepted based on who i am . i dress niceley & with out make up , just lippy & eye brow liiner because of being burnt on my face years ago.
I have plenty of failing's & flaws, yet people over look that,
So for me being the way i am has been my advantage in many more ways than i would have expected if i was trans,

the other detail is how people percive you ,my manerisms how i express my self think do things how i interact with people ,

When you are real people will see that try & be different than who you really are then you'll be caught out, I am who i am no acting or trying to be some one else ,

As to doing things im a chippy do things for our daughter & at home here, & the odd building job at the Musum for free, I like doing wood work wood turning , sewing my clothes & meeting many of my friends in our groups so there will allways be changes thats a part of life & liveing

To be accepted for who i am is what's important ,not how i look or dont .

Join up & be a member of womens groups get out & enjoy being you & with others around you,

...noeleena...

[Melody Moore]

Saya,

Like everyone else I too suffered fears about rejection for all my life which prevented me from coming out.
But I actually started living full-time as a female a month before I started on hormones. I decided to do this
as a RLE to help me be sure about my decision to go on hormone therapy. But how I found the confidence to
do this was by publishing photos of myself as a female on a social networking/dating site & all the feedback I
got was very positive & reaffirming that I would be seen & accepted as a female. (I am intersex by the way.)

The next baby step I took was to go out and do my shopping at the supermarket where I usually shopped &
where I was also known by staff as a male & I recall it was the scariest day of my life. But I went to the website
where I was presenting myself as a female & reread the feedback on my photos and this made me feel good, so
I said it's now or never and walked out the door & drove to the supermarket. When I arrived there was people in
the car-park & I was feeling like 'Oh God, here we go!', but I knew that I just had to get out of the car like normal
& keep a happy smile on my face. I knew that any sort of uncertainty & nervousness would get me 'clocked'. So off
I went with my head held high. As I walked through the carpark, I passed several people who just smiled back at me
because I was smiling and noone even looked twice or had any surprised reaction - so I thought this is really cool!

Once I was inside the supermarket I meandered around casually for about 30 minutes getting my weekly grocery
supplies then headed to the check out. I figured if I was rushing then I would only attract unwanted attention to
myself. And it was the first time ever that I was able to look through the women's products & cosmetics in a store.

So I guess I appeared to everyone else like any other woman who was doing their shopping. Once I finished I headed
to the checkout and was served by a girl who usually served me before. I was addressed by her as a female when she
asked me 'How are you today madam?' & never at any stage did she raise an eyebrow & she obviously did not recognise
me. I have had long term friends who knew me as a male & have known me for many years who haven't recognised me
when I stopped them to talk to them - so that is how different I look when I present myself as a female. One of my old
friends, a guy made the comment to me recently 'Wow, what an amazing transformation, you have to be happy with that!'

After my sortie to do my shopping at the supermarket it was a series of baby steps to be able to build up more confidence
to help me integrate back into society. I started to get involved with my local LGBT community and started going to social
events & actually joined the committee that organises these events. I was also an MC who hosted a drag show for a short
time, but then realised that I was just far too different than the drag (drama) queens I was working with & decided to quit.

Being on stage & entertaining people isn't anything new to me as I have always been a part-time professional musician,
a guitarist & singer for over 30 years & I love it. It is also the reason I chose the name Melody. So this was also a very
important step for me because I really didn't want to give up playing music simply because I transitioned.

So once I got back on stage it I boosted my confidence tremendously. I started going out to straight venues again where
I have had guys hit on me before the natal women I was with - one time this happened the lady who was with me was my
40 year old ex-girlfriend & she actually got really pissed off about that. Just like she did another time when another woman
made a comment about how nice & soft my facial skin was. But that green-eyed monster they call 'jealousy' always seems
to raise it's ugly head with my ex-girlfriend, which is one of the main reasons I dumped her the first time we split when I was
still living as a male. So when other women started getting jealous of you or guys hit on you before them, then I don't think
that anyone else could pay you such a huge compliment ;)

I guess I did have a bit of an unfair advantage being born intersex, but I still had all the same insecurities to overcome
like everyone else here, but it took me awhile to finally accept that. I see no reason in your avatar why you can't go full
time now as well - hold your head high, walk tall and smile and you will be amazed at how many doors get opened for you ;)

Here is something you girls who have any self-doubt should check out - see this profile of a woman I also know from
Cairns: http://person.com/personals-photo-album.phtml?user_id=381130&in=profile and tell me if you think she is trans or a natal female?

[Aprilrain]

I wore a wig for a while cause my hair was to short to even do a feminine short style. That was all last winter so it worked out as far as temperature is concerned. I wasn't 100 full time but once I came out in a certain part of my life that was it there was no back and forth my family were the last to see me as April. So no need to Jump in head first you can start being you socially and then maybe your family and Job or whatever. I would suggest getting yourself in a place were you can be as au natural as possible before presenting at work especially if you have to go looking for a job!

[Rianna Humble]

How did most of your deal with your RLE when you knew that maybe physically you weren't passable yet? Did you find yourselves hiding from certain places, or certain social gatherings? Or did you continue to always do the same things as you did prior to transitioning?

I knew that I was not "passable" but I could not take the waiting any longer. I already had some clothes and a wig, so I consulted with my mnagers and HR at work and set a date for the start of my RLE. A few weeks earlier I had spoken to my GP about my Gender Dysphoria and had seen a psych to be screened for other mental probllems so I knew I would eventually get an appointment at the Gender Identity Clinic just round the corner from where I was born.

In the UK, to change your name you just need a Change of Name Deed (often called a deed poll) witnessed by someone who has known you for more than (I think) 6 months but who is not a relative. On 30 June 2010, my manager signed the deed and we dated it for the following day. Since 1st July 2010 I have been living full-time as the woman I always knew myself to be.

Apart from a very few snide remarks from strangers, I have been largely accepted for who I really am. Last December, I was buying groceries on my way home from work and the cashier told me she had been looking out for me since the summer because she wanted to congratulate me on having the courage to start my transition.

[Melody Moore]

Since noone here game enough to take on my challenge & answer this question I will answer it for you...


Here is something you girls who have any self-doubt should check out - see this profile of a woman I also know from
Cairns: http://person.com/personals-photo-album.phtml?user_id=381130&in=profile and tell me if you think she is trans or a natal female?
This woman IS a natal female. :)

[Badtranny]

How did most of your deal with your RLE when you knew that maybe physically you weren't passable yet? Did you find yourselves hiding from certain places, or certain social gatherings? Or did you continue to always do the same things as you did prior to transitioning?

Hey doll, I might be putting my neck out here (shocker huh?) but there's no rule that says you need to jump into RLE so early. Wait, I think there actually is a rule, but I don't think the world will tilt if you scrub it.

Melody started going full time before she ever started HRT and that is commendable and actually amazing in my eyes, but that's not how I'm doing it, and in fact it may not be right for everyone. The RLE is basically supposed to test your conviction before you undertake any permanent procedures, and as far as I know is still a prerequisite for SRS. Since SRS is at least 3-5 years down the road for me if at all, and I'm scheduled to go full time in roughly a year the required RLE will be taken care of as a matter of course. Until then, I am transitioning in stages.

I'm "out" at work but I'm not officially in transition at work because it would trigger HR's involvement and since my plans don't involve staying there I'm reluctant to pull the trigger on that issue. I have started my "professional" transition in the background by discreetly meeting with influential colleagues and telling them about my plans. I already have a line on where I may be headed so I'm optimistic about the next opportunity. I started my "social" transition exactly one year ago which was coincidentally the same time I started HRT. I think everyone in my personal life knows I'm transitioning now, including my family.

I would be reluctant to encourage a sink or swim type of RLE because I think a life changing event like this should be carefully managed. At least as well as time and resources will allow.

[kellycan27]

People seem to be be getting a little defensive. Passing ( as used in the context of the OP) and "being accepted" are apples and oranges. People may "accept" the fact, but that doesn't mean that they have mistaken you for a woman. There was never any mention of what it takes to BE that woman.(cosmetics or whatever) Simply stated. it takes a lot more than self confidence and attitude for someone to look at you and say.. That is a woman.
Melody
The examples you have given are good .. Natal women who may look like men. If there is a question in peoples minds............... whether natal or not, is she passing for a woman? Just as with some of us.. The "just don't know" factor isn't "passing" as a woman. People are just not sure.. That is not passing in the true sense of the OP. No malice, not disparaging or putting anyone down, nor saying someone is more or less or NOT a woman.

[Traci Elizabeth]

Kelly i totally agree that the "its all in your attidtude" just doesnt work...


I have to disagree with you and Kelly on this one. I think both of you are putting the cart before the horse.

That old saying, "If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck then it must be a duck," has tremendous relevancy in transitioning -- meaning attitude is paramount. Human brains are designed to make discussions and associations based on partial information. Our brain is constantly filling in the blanks.

So for example, if one is wearing female clothes, high heels, has female styled hair, talks in a female voice, and carries herself like a female with a positive head held high self-assured attitude, then others "SEE" what they expect to see (what the brain associates that "look" for be) that of a woman.

On the other hand if the "SAME" person wiggles her ankles while walking in high heels and walks like she has been riding a horse all day, hangs her head down with slouched shoulders, walks with her hands in her pockets then talks like Tennessee Ernie Ford or Brooke Benton or Tom Waits, and acts very nervous then "others" are NOT going to see a woman but a "man in Woman's clothes."

And what is the only difference between these two scenarios - ATTITUDE and Confidence of presentation.

Beauty, breast size, some visible hair seen under the makeup, height, and weight have NOTHING to do with it. Women come is ALL forms:

From drop dead beautiful to Butt ass ugly and everything in between;
From flat chested to volleyballs;
From smooth face, to acne scarred and facial hair under lip and chin and cheeks;
From short to tall
From anorexic to grossly obese;

So physically appearance has far less to do with being a "WOMAN" they you lead us to believe.

LONG LIVE (viva) ATTITUDE!

[kellycan27]

I have to disagree with you and Kelly on this one. I think both of you are putting the cart before the horse.

That old saying, "If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck then it must be a duck," has tremendous relevancy in transitioning -- meaning attitude is paramount. Human brains are designed to make discussions and associations based on partial information. Our brain is constantly filling in the blanks.

So for example, if one is wearing female clothes, high heels, has female styled hair, talks in a female voice, and carries herself like a female with a positive head held high self-assured attitude, then others "SEE" what they expect to see (what the brain associates that "look" for be) that of a woman.

On the other hand if the "SAME" person wiggles her ankles while walking in high heels and walks like she has been riding a horse all day, hangs her head down with slouched shoulders, walks with her hands in her pockets then talks like Tennessee Ernie Ford or Brooke Benton or Tom Waits, and acts very nervous then "others" are NOT going to see a woman but a "man in Woman's clothes."

And what is the only difference between these two scenarios - ATTITUDE and Confidence of presentation.

Beauty, breast size, some visible hair seen under the makeup, height, and weight have NOTHING to do with it. Women come is ALL forms:

From drop dead beautiful to Butt ass ugly and everything in between;
From flat chested to volleyballs;
From smooth face, to acne scarred and facial hair under lip and chin and cheeks;
From short to tall
From anorexic to grossly obese;

So physically appearance has far less to do with being a "WOMAN" they you lead us to believe.

LONG LIVE (viva) ATTITUDE!

Please re-read my post (#25) You added "presentation" to "self confidence and attitude". The question wasn't what it takes to be BE A WOMAN The question was about actually having people look at you and saying.. that's a woman. Once again I am going to say.. there is a difference in acceptance and actually passing as a natal woman. Let me put it in simpler form. I believe that what the OP was getting at is that her desire is for people to to look at her regardless of knowing her attitude or how much self confidence she has and just say to themselves... That's a woman.

[Melody Moore]

Human brains are designed to make discussions and associations based on partial information.

Our brain is constantly filling in the blanks.

I coldunt arege mroe wtih waht yuo aer syanig Tacri :heehee:

Acocdrnig to a reschearer at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are,
the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses
and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by
istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. ;)

[Sara82]

Girls im only saying what will make ME comfortable out in the world. Most of the behaviors which i already know i have to unlearn (ie. Walking, posture, voice, attitude) but i feel these things are inside me, and just need to be learned and developed by socializing with others that will accept me for who i am.

[Melody Moore]

Saya, there is no right or wrong way when it comes to transitioning, I have shared with you how
things worked for me, but this is not to say this is how things will work for you. So you can try
some of the things I did to overcome my fears & get out into the real world again, but that is
completely YOUR CHOICE. Don't ever feel obligated to having to take the same path as I have
to conquer the hill, the most important thing is that you are find your own way to get up that
same mountain in the best way that suits your level of fitness. Some people can run straight up
the side of a hill, whereas others who are not so fit will have to take the slower route to get up
that same hill - the important thing is that you get to where YOU want to go at the end of the day.

[Sara Jessica]

Not that I have anything to add to the conversation which hasn't already been said...


I coldunt arege mroe wtih waht yuo aer syanig Tacri :heehee:

Acocdrnig to a reschearer at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are,
the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses
and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by
istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. ;)

Now that was really cool!!! :)

[Kristy_K]

That was a very good example Melody on how our minds look at things. They do say that attitude is 90% and makeup 10%. Another thought for you to consider is a hypnotherapist. The subconsciousness mind could be very helpful in acting the way you want to act. It sees things we don't think about conscious and could help you master your behavior in a natural way. And still let you feel great about yourself and the person you want to be.

[AllieSF]

I understand what everyone is saying here and agree with most of it, even Kelly's definition of passing, i.e. someone saying that she is a woman on the outside surface without seeing the confidence and other things that it takes to be peacefully oneself. What I would like to know is, what happens to the real woman in a man's body who has no chance in hell to ever truly look and, using Kelly's definition if I understood it correctly, pass as a woman? It seems that some are putting more importance on "passing" physically in the looks department than on just being oneself with or without whatever aids and corrective processes and training that they may undertake? I do agree that if possible it would benefit the transsexual to make the effort and spend the money to better fit physically into the role. However, that does not work for, and I will go out on a limb here, the vast majority of MtF TS's. I know, have seen, and have met very few, in comparison to the total number out there, MtF's CD's and TS's that truly pass physically in the looks department as a natal woman. A lot come very close. So, what about the rest?

Back to the OP. As stated by others, the RLE is a training and testing ground. The training part helps set the stage for being able to live as the real you, even if you never reach that lofty goal passing completely as a woman in the looks, comportment and all the other womanly areas. Now, what circumstances and personal criteria that you use based on what the experts and experienced deem are needed to start RLE is up to your final decision. I only think that the sooner you start will probably help you adapt and learn quicker to develop that thick skin, so to speak, that will be needed when presenting as an imperfect you 24 hours a day. Sometimes we just seem to put too many obstacles and other things on the to-do list before we start something important for us. I am not saying that this is your case, just realize that one day you will just need to do it whether you are 100% ready or not. I wish you the best of luck as you go forward. And, like the others have stated, you really do appear to have the physical advantages that a lot do not have. You really do look cute and cuddly!

[Kristy_K]

That was a very good example Melody on how our minds look at things. They do say that attitude is 90% and makeup 10%. Another thought for you to consider is a hypnotherapist. The subconsciousness mind could be very helpful in acting the way you want to act. It sees things we don't think about conscious and could help you master your behavior in a natural way. And still let you feel great about yourself and the person you want to be.

[kellycan27]

That was a very good example Melody on how our minds look at things. They do say that attitude is 90% and makeup 10%. Another thought for you to consider is a hypnotherapist. The subconsciousness mind could be very helpful in acting the way you want to act. It sees things we don't think about conscious and could help you master your behavior in a natural way. And still let you feel great about yourself and the person you want to be.

I agree.. in your mind you can believe anything you want to believe, but what's in your mind isn't going to convince the person standing on the other side of the counter. How would self hypnosis convince the the other person that you are a woman?.. after all that is the gist of this whole convo..( or at least the point I was trying to make). I don't know how it got to the point of people thinking that it was about what it takes "TO BE A WOMAN" rather than what it takes to convince OTHER people that they are seeing a woman. I wasn't attacking anyone or anyone's ability to pass or not pass... passing or not passing was not even in the equation... And also.. it appears that what what one sees in their mind can actually be 1000 miles apart from what was written :heehee:

[Badtranny]

I'm standing with Kelly on this one. The first thing my therapist told me when she gave me my GID badge was start saving for surgery. I said SRS? she said no, she thought the most important surgery for me was FFS.

I think we can all agree about how we FEEL, and Lord knows my confidence isn't lacking, but if FFS wasn't available, then I would have serious second thoughts about transitioning. I do NOT want to look like a guy in a dress. Let me add that this is a very personal decision and should not be considered as a directive to my sisters. Everyone has their price and that's just mine.

I want to be free. Free of the dude act and free of the dress-up requirement.

[Sara82]

I'm standing with Kelly on this one. The first thing my therapist told me when she gave me my GID badge was start saving for surgery. I said SRS? she said no, she thought the most important surgery for me was FFS.

I think we can all agree about how we FEEL, and Lord knows my confidence isn't lacking, but if FFS wasn't available, then I would have serious second thoughts about transitioning. I do NOT want to look like a guy in a dress. Let me add that this is a very personal decision and should not be considered as a directive to my sisters. Everyone has their price and that's just mine.

I want to be free. Free of the dude act and free of the dress-up requirement.

couldn't agree more, the fact that FFS exists, definitely gives me more encouragement that i can one day fully blend as a female, and never worry about looking like a dude in a dress. i know u girls have said i have some good things going for me in my pictures, but truth be told im just careful about angles and lighting, plus my phone camera is not very revealing. i do feel i have some feminine facial features but i definitely have some masculine angles, my side profile being one.

[Aprilrain]

and looks like a duck then it must be a duck[/U][/I][/B]

EXACTLY it must also LOOK like a duck which is what everyone else is saying Traci

Yes woman come in a tremendous variety of shapes and sizes but they still don't LOOK like dudes! unless of course they want to and even then they might have trouble being gendered male.

[Jorja]

So, I have been following this thread and wanted to reply sooner but I got busy. As I understand what Saya is wanting to know is, what does she need to do to look like a woman that blends in as a female. My answer is to have FFS done as soon as possible. Keep in mind depending on how mild or severe your surgery is there will be bruising, discoloration, and swelling of your face. I looked like I went 15 rounds with Mike Tyson in his prime. It takes time for the brusing to go away. Like 3 to 12 weeks maybe more depending on what is done. I would go to a plastic surgeon that specializes in FFS. There are several. Personally, Dr. Metzler does a wonderful job and does not try to make you look like HIS image of what a women should look like. Dr Ousterhouse, in my opinion, has HIS image and every girl he works on looks the same. Do your homework before surgery. Go to more than one doctor and find out what they will do for you. Know the risks before knife is put to skin.

[Badtranny]

but truth be told im just careful about angles and lighting, plus my phone camera is not very revealing. i do feel i have some feminine facial features but i definitely have some masculine angles

Oh totally! I think I look soooo much better in pics than I do in real life. The weirdest thing is I get the same reactions with no makeup as I do with it! I'll get the ma'am follwed by the quick sir? or vice versa. Just last week, the guy at the pharmacy saw me fidgeting in the line (they make you wait at a little sign) and said "I'll be right with you ma'am, uh... sir, um ...ma'am?" I just smiled and nodded my head, but the crazy thing was I was still in my work clothes, (slacks, button down shirt). I loved it, but the dude had glasses that were so thick he could see the future, so I think anyone with a ponytail was probably getting ma'am'd anyway.

The bottom line is I may totally pass at first glance. But if you look at me again, you'll notice like Austin Powers; "that's a man, man!". That's not the way I want to live the rest of my life.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

all the comments around attitude, self confidence , etc are undoubtedly true. if you want to live a high quality of life, feeling good about yourself is a neccessary condition.

but its no less true for saya
or for anyone that ALSO wants to live her best quality of life by having the option to be fully and completely accepted as female, to live a life where she gets to decide when and if to share her male past, and to have every advantage(or disadvantage) in the work and social world that any female would have..

the idea that whats on the inside is what counts is great, but it doesnt speak to the quality of life issue a young transsexual person deals with when thinking about whether they can pass as and be treated by all as a natal female..

[Melody Moore]

Ishe thought the most important surgery for me was FFS.
And your therapist is only giving you her PERSONAL OPINION here after you requested it - not professional advice.
I was told by my therapist not to worry about FFS if I felt my SRS was more important to me because she thought
I looked fine. So once again this boils down to PERSONAL CHOICE - there is no right or wrong way to get up the hill
in transition - the main thing here is that you do it however ever you feel comfortable or in a way that is acceptable
to you!

And by the way Melissa,

The therapist never gave you the GID badge - you did!

Therapist are only there to help us understand ourselves & to explore & suggest ways we can dealing with OUR issues.

[kellycan27]

If it looks like a duck & quacks like a duck, it usually is..... a duck! :heehee:

So if you present yourself as a woman & you communicate
as a woman, it usually means that you are a woman right?

In most cases usually the way that we communicate ourselves will get us 'clocked' as you put it,
more than anything else we do to feminise ourselves and this is one issue that has not even been
addressed on one single occasion yet in this thread. But I believe communication is our greatest
asset when it comes to passing and being accepted as a female and will do a lot more for us to be
accepted as women than FFS will ever do. If you are surprised about this then don't think you are
alone, because this surprised me as well

What surprised me here was & what many people don't understand about communication is that verbal or
spoken communication only plays a 7% role in how we communicate with other people. The other 93% of
the way we communicate is unspoken & completely non-verbal - body language, hand gestures, gait, facial
expressions etc. And this is something I found out about only a few months ago when I was having vocal
feminisation training.

I am not saying that laser treatment, long hair, clothing, make up & jewellery even having breasts don't play
any part in helping us pass as females. But each of those cosmetic components only plays a very tiny part or
percentage in how we communicate to other people & how they will see us. The reason I say this is because
I know lots of women that don't have long hair, have small breasts, some are flat chested, some don't wear
make up & jewellery and some lesbian girls I know tick all these boxes & including not wearing female clothing.
Some look very masculine, but you cannot mistake them for being a male because of their non-verbal methods
of communication like body language, gait, hand gestures, facial expressions etc.

So how much of a role do the cosmetic things play in how we pass & are accepted
& respected in society, as opposed to how well we really do communicate ourselves?

So I also have to agree with what Charlene has said here.

But wait.. now you are throwing in "communication", which is just the same as Tracie tossing in "presentation"..... I think that you just proved my point, and in case you have forgotten what that point was..quite simply.......... It takes more than attitude and self confidence in order to be able to pass public scrutiny and to be seen as a woman. (other than in your own mind).
Oh and one last thing. I have read a number of times that you feel that "being intersexed" gives you an advantage and I am curious as to what that means? Gives you an advantage over other transsexuals? GG's? How so?

[Melody Moore]

I think that you just proved my point

No I don't believe I have, you just missed my point completely hun, so I stand by my words. ;)

I also talked about ALL the aspects of how we communicate which is what will get us clocked
more than anything else. It is easy for anyone to use cosmetics to fool someone from a distance
but the minute you open your mouth, or people observe the way you sit, walk, use hand gestures
or express your body language as a male, then you are surely going to get clocked. FFS only goes
so far towards convincing the public we are females. There is a lot more to this than you & Melissa
obviously realise. I also showed you a very good example of a natal woman who looks like a male.

And as for my comment about being intersex, that was relating to the fact I started my RLE
before I started on hormones & things went very favourably for me. So I was acknowledging the
fact that because I do have some natural female qualities that this has helped me to be more
accepted in society without the help of hormones. So I was making the point that things I have
done won't always work for others like they have worked for me, that's all. I made no mention
that it has given me any sort of an advantage over GG's. I was saying how it appears that I am
being accepted as a GG. I can also claim to be a GG anyway, because I was born as natal female
and a male. And trust me, life has not always been so easy for me growing up being intersex.

I showed an example of how our minds work and I don't think you got the message at all there hun. ;)
Try to get as many of the letters in order and then the message becomes clearer, but our mind does
that without really having to think about it. It is just the same with getting your communication and
presentation in order the more you do, then the clearer it will become that you are a female.

But if there is one or two minor components to feminisation that you haven't completed that is not going
to mean that other people will not see you & accept you as being a female. I know women who also have
very deep voices and muscles that can put most men to shame. So what identifies them as being female?

The woman who looks like a guy has a lot of masculine qualities, INCLUDING dark hair on her body & face,
but you can still see by the comments she has got in response to her photo that proves the point she is
accepted as a female. How many guys have commented there questioning of her gender identity because
she has both male & female characteristics? Go to this link (http://person.com/personals-photo-album.phtml?user_id=381130&in=profile) & you will see that I have proved my point. ;)

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck & quacks like a duck, MOST PEOPLE WILL ASSUME it is.... a duck!

[kellycan27]

No I don't believe I have, you just missed my point completely hun ;)

I also talked about ALL the aspects of how we communicate which is what will get us clocked
more than anything else. It is easy for anyone to use cosmetics to fool someone from a distance
but the minute you open your mouth, or people observe the way you sit, walk, use hand gestures
or express your body language as a male, then you are surely going to get clocked. FFS only goes
so far towards convincing the public we are females. There is a lot more to this than you & Melissa
obviously realise. I also showed you a very good example of a natal woman who looks like a male.

Actually I think that both you and Tracie missed my point from the very beginning. But are not all of those things you mentioned part of our "presentation" whether we "present" in a way that gets us clocked or we present in a way that conveys us as females? Tracie talks about if it looks like a duck.. and you agreed. Now if you were to walk into the mall and start quaking... is the person on the other side of the counter going to believe you're a duck.. just because you have the self confidence and attitude that you are a duck? Tacies duck looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck. Is tracies duck more or less apt to be take for a duck than you? You may very well be a duck, but if you don't look and act like a duck you probably won't be taken for a duck. You say you pass as a female.. no problem. You talk about your female "qualities" so It's NOT just your self confidence and attitude that people are only seeing.. it's how you present yourself, and presentation is MORE than JUST attitude and self confindence. I am definetly seeing how you mind works... you tend to over think things.
Melissa.. I love her like a sister, and I know she always has my back, she's adorable, but............ Sometimes she doesn't help me. This had nothing to do with FFS or what we want to look like or therapists or how girly one needs to be to be a girl.
Melody you yourself admit that's not just looks but presentation that might determine whether we get clocked or not. Do we or do we not need more than "just" attitude and self confidence fot the average person to look at as and take us for a natal girl? It's a simple question.
I didn't mean to imply that you had ever in any way said.. that you had an advantage over GG's. It was just a question. As for it being an advantage because of the reasons you stated... I honestly can't see where it would add much weight, except maybe in your own mind.. helps with the self confidence and attitude. I am not intersexed and I started my RLE 4 years before I started hormones, and I have done pretty well myself and I too appear to be accepted as a gg. And as for claiming to be a gg... hell I can do that too... I could probably pull it off better than you .. Where's the advantage?
Did you just get my msg?
This horse is dead.
Peace out!

[Frances]

I have not read every post, but the main point of the RLE, in my opinion, is not finding out if you pass, but seeing if you can handle life as a woman if you DON'T pass. Most transitioners find out that they do anyway over time, but there is that akward period. The RLE tests the resolve of the transitioner. If you cannot go buy milk and handle looks or muttered comments, there is no reason to think FFS or HRT will change your perception of yourself. I know people who were banking on FFS to give them that courage, and it did not come. Besides, FFS sometimes looks strange.

The point is toughening up, but there is no need to rush into it. I waited until my beard was gone and my hair had grown. age. Being a woman in society is not easy not matter what. After you do build up confidence and courage, and finally pass, comes sexism, condescension and being infantilized.

Good luck with everything.

[Badtranny]

Melissa.. I love her like a sister, and I know she always has my back, she's adorable, but............ Sometimes she doesn't help me.

LOL

I'm like George Bush over here, you'd rather not have my support!

Sorry doll, I thought my example would close the issue. We always seem to be on two sides of this one, but I really do agree with you. One of us is either being too nuanced or not nuanced enough, ;-)

...and why oh why can't I resist kicking dead horses? I know I should just walk on by, but I can't.

[Stephenie S]

I think that this "attitude and self confidence" concept keeps getting brought up because it is an essential part of your "presentation".

I live in farming country. There are PLENTY of "farm stock" women in northern New England. Wide shoulders, narrow hips, deep voices, and muscular builds are not uncommon. Do these women worry about "passing"? No. No they do not. Why? Because they KNOW they are women. In order to be completely accepted as female, you must know you are a woman.

Kelly and I have been around on this subject already. I think that in general, we agree. Her suggestion that it takes FAR more than attitude and confidence to "pass" is correct. But my point is that without that inner knowledge (OWNING your feminine identity, so to speak) you will not "pass" no matter how much you may look like a women. And by the same token, when you can project that attitude and confidence that you need in your daily life as a woman, many of the male markers you will carry forever no matter what you do, can be overcome.

Stephie

[Melody Moore]

Thank you Stephanie - some people here need to stop believing that all women are these tiny
petite cute creatures that all have hourglass figures & flawless faces because the reality is not all
women are like this & it would be easy to see if some people here would just open their eyes. I
have seen lots of natal women with facial hair & even beards - OWNING your feminine identity is
definitely the most important aspect to transition as far as I am concerned, SRS & FFS are not the
magic bullets like some people here might believe. So how many times has that been said here before? :daydreaming:

[Stephenie S]

I, for instance, am NOT a tiny thing with a cute face and an hourglass figure. I am tall with wide shoulders, a thick waist, small breasts, and very little in the way of a butt. Growing up, I was fine until puberty at which point I was MORTIFIED by what happened to my body. I was turning into what looked like a GUY. Far too much testosterone and far to little estrogen was coursing through my teenage body. Ick, ick, and double ick! As soon as I could, I fixed the situation, and I am happy to report that I am now quite pleased with my body. It's strong and healthy and reasonable attractive. But the result of all that testosterone had some pretty permanent effects. Do I wish I was a cute little hottie? Sometimes. But really not very often. I am unique and I love it.

Stephie

[kellycan27]

Thank you Stephanie - some people here need to stop believing that all women are these tiny
petite cute creatures that all have hourglass figures & flawless faces because the reality is not all
women are like this & it would be easy to see if some people here would just open their eyes. I
have seen lots of natal women with facial hair & even beards - OWNING your feminine identity is
definitely the most important aspect to transition as far as I am concerned, SRS & FFS are not the
magic bullets like some people here might believe. So how many times has that been said here before? :daydreaming:

I think it would be a real feather in your cap if you could go back over my posts and quote me as to having said ANYTHING of that nature.( their need to be pretty or petite etc) In fact I never alluded to anything that one might need other than just MORE than self confidence and attitude. You and tracie filled in the "more" blank. I am betting you won't because.. I never did say it, and no2 you would have to admit that you were wrong.
No 1. I never did, and No2.. you would have to admit that you were wrong. here's your chance..........

[Melody Moore]

Kelly, why do you think I was referring specifically to you here when I wasn't?

I was referring to some of the comments made by Melissa when she said that her
therapist who is unqualified to suggest cosmetic surgery when that is not what she
is getting paid for. So please, don't take everything so personal next time.

I think the more important issue is dealing with the psychological issues first before going
down the route of cosmetic surgery. Because as Stephanie pointed out things don't always
go to plan and the psychological issues can still exist after they have had the surgery. And
if Melissa's psychologist was worth her salt, then this is what she should be doing, not giving
someone the wrong information based on her personal opinion.

Believe it of not this was something I tried to help my ex-gf with who also had serious
psychological issues that go back to being teased as a teenager because she had bad
acne which resulted in some pitting on her face. She is 40 years old now and it has all
cleared up after having laser treatments, skin peels etc and still can't let this go. So how
do you think that sort of a problem should be tackled when cosmetic surgery cannot do
anymore to help her?

[Stephenie S]

No offense, Kelly, but you are a cute little hottie.

And I have NEVER known you to be anything else but perfectly polite and respectful even when we held vehemently opposing views.

Stephie

[kellycan27]

I think that this "attitude and self confidence" concept keeps getting brought up because it is an essential part of your "presentation".

I live in farming country. There are PLENTY of "farm stock" women in northern New England. Wide shoulders, narrow hips, deep voices, and muscular builds are not uncommon. Do these women worry about "passing"? No. No they do not. Why? Because they KNOW they are women. In order to be completely accepted as female, you must know you are a woman.

Kelly and I have been around on this subject already. I think that in general, we agree. Her suggestion that it takes FAR more than attitude and confidence to "pass" is correct. But my point is that without that inner knowledge (OWNING your feminine identity, so to speak) you will not "pass" no matter how much you may look like a women. And by the same token, when you can project that attitude and confidence that you need in your daily life as a woman, many of the male markers you will carry forever no matter what you do, can be overcome.
Stephie

I do agree with you and I am not disputing your point. All i am saying and have been saying is it takes "MORE" than SC and A ... period... Never said one had to be pretty, petite, or have a set of knockers or anything specific.
Tracie misunderstood what I was saying from the get go. she thought i was saying that you can't BE a woman unless you have certain qualities.. when what I was saying was that you have to have certain qualities for the average Joe to look at you from across the counter and say to himself.. that's a woman. How hard is that? people took it personal... and got their panties in a bunch and read as lot of things into it that were never said. If you look at the OP.. She was saying that she would like to be able to pass ..looks wise.
( not saying it was you)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

the problem of never being satisfied with yourself is different than the problem of wanting to be passable.
desiring ffs does not make you someone that has a problem with self esteem

ffs did not make me petite, i am still 6'2.. all the stuff about attitude and mannerisms ignores the idea that people judge your gender almost instantly..and certain things about your face are huge male tells... of course some women share "male" facial structures, but most of them have other features that are overwhelmingly female..ffs did not make my facial structure as pretty or cute as i wished my whole life...but its so female looking that i can't even pass as male when i hand my name change forms to people

give the OP the benefit of the doubt that she meant what she said, and said what she meant...

[kellycan27]

the problem of never being satisfied with yourself is different than the problem of wanting to be passable.
desiring ffs does not make you someone that has a problem with self esteem

ffs did not make me petite, i am still 6'2.. all the stuff about attitude and mannerisms ignores the idea that people judge your gender almost instantly..and certain things about your face are huge male tells... of course some women share "male" facial structures, but most of them have other features that are overwhelmingly female..ffs did not make my facial structure as pretty or cute as i wished my whole life...but its so female looking that i can't even pass as male when i hand my name change forms to people

give the OP the benefit of the doubt that she meant what she said, and said what she meant...

Kaitlyn
Would you agree that at a glance it would take more than self confidence and attitude for someone looking at you from say across the room to say.. that's a woman?

Kel

[Chickhe]

Saya.. just to let you know, you can pluck your beard (do some research on how) and many woman wear wigs... so if the passing part is what you are trying to test out, you might want to try the temporary methods first. Having a clear face does help a lot and wig or not...its the correct hairstyle that places you. With wigs you can keep trying different ones until you find one that works.

[kellycan27]

I think the more important issue is dealing with the psychological issues first before going
down the route of cosmetic surgery. Because as Stephanie pointed out things don't always
go to plan and the psychological issues can still exist after they have had the surgery. And
if Melissa's psychologist was worth her salt, then this is what she should be doing, not giving
someone the wrong information based on her personal opinion.

Believe it of not this was something I tried to help my ex-gf with who also had serious
psychological issues that go back to being teased as a teenager because she had bad
acne which resulted in some pitting on her face. She is 40 years old now and it has all
cleared up after having laser treatments, skin peels etc and still can't let this go. So how
do you think that sort of a problem should be tackled when cosmetic surgery cannot do
anymore to help her?

And this has what to do with my statement that simply put was that it takes more than SC and A to have someome look at you from across the room and say.. that's a woman. Physcobabble, smoke and mirrors to avoid a straight answer? You have already agreed with tracie that there needs to be some sort of presentation, and you yourself said. you need to communicate. I am asking you for at least the second time.. are not presentation and communication more than SC and attitude?

[Melody Moore]

Kelly, first of all please stop believing that every single part of my statements are being
applied & directed to you when they were intended for the general populace here. I agreed
with what Traci stated here and posted a great example about how the human mind works...


That old saying, "If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck then it must be a duck," has tremendous relevancy in transitioning -- meaning attitude is paramount. Human brains are designed to make discussions and associations based on partial information. Our brain is constantly filling in the blanks.


I coldunt arege mroe wtih waht yuo aer syanig Tacri :heehee:

Acocdrnig to a reschearer at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are,
the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses
and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by
istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. ;)

I am not going to reply anymore to you because like I said, you are missing my points & taking
this far too personal - maybe it is because you feel the need to be defending Melissa's comments.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Actually melody I think you are the one missing the point.

When given only partial info, such as a persons face, or say their hands, or their broad shoulders...attitude is the last thing a person will use to assess your gender... If you can make your face unquestionably feminine, then sometimes that is all the info a person will use to assess you...

What exactly is a female attitude from across the room anyway.?

[kellycan27]

A
Melissa.. I love her like a sister, and I know she always has my back, she's adorable, but............ Sometimes she doesn't help me. This had nothing to do with FFS or what we want to look like or therapists or how girly one needs to be to be a girl.
Melody
That's cool.. you don't need to reply to me any more.. It would be nice if you would just be honest about why. As far as my defending Missy's position.... The above was taken from an earlier post I made.. to you in this thread.. Does this look like i am defending her?
Once again you have been caught in your own rhetoric.

[Beth-Lock]

I have completed my two year RLE, and have to rely on wigs. Judging from the TS/TG people I have seen who have natural hair, I think a wig generally looks more convincing if it is a fairly good one. It is an art to get and maintain a nice natural femme hair style, and takes years to perfect even for young GG's, and they do not have baldness or receding hairline issues. Some women do not look really attractive until they get into thier thirties or at least late twenties for this reason.
A nice appearance as to hair does make all the diference in passibility, it is true. A wig can also make you look younger.
One other thing: both manner and getting a good hairstyle, wig or natural, that works for you generally takes time, (during which you will suffer). Plan on a couple of years or three of trial and error, unless you are very, very lucky.

[Aprilrain]

Saya.. just to let you know, you can pluck your beard (do some research on how)

DONT PLUCK!!! If you can help it (sometimes i break this rule too). I have heard from several electrologist that Plucking GROWS hair. Yes your face will stay clear for a while and you will LOVE the way it looks without the shadow but you will pay for it in the long run. Best to spend money on hair removal FIRST!!!

[Sara82]

DONT PLUCK!!! If you can help it (sometimes i break this rule too). I have heard from several electrologist that Plucking GROWS hair. Yes your face will stay clear for a while and you will LOVE the way it looks without the shadow but you will pay for it in the long run. Best to spend money on hair removal FIRST!!!

Omg i wouldnt have the patience to pluck my face lol, would take forevah. Good news is i restarted my laser treatments over the weekend, forgot how much it hurt. :(

[Juanita O]

We all talk about passing while dressed, I have seen alot of ggs that don't look like women, IMHO i think that about 99.9% (not me)of the girls on this forum are passable. Awhile back there was a thread about walking like a women, well again women walk different from each other so how do we judge how we walk, Our hips are built different from a ggs not all womens hips move while walk.

[Maiko Newhalf]

Hi Saya! So you have decided to live full time for a while? How long? I think you'll pass fine. :)

I'm having my first electroysis session next week...

I don't know if I want to transistion yet. So I just started several things that takes a long time but have less effect on my everyday life: seeing a therapist, electrolysis hair removel, growing out hair and practicing female voice.

[kristinacd55]

Alright, here comes dumb blonde old me (wig, natural hair grayish). What the heck does RLE stand for? I even googled it and all it came up with was Run Length Encoding and how that relates to being TS I have no idea :)

[AllieSF]

Real Life Experience. Normally, it is a requirement to live 24/7 for about or at least one year before being qualified to get authorization from one's therapist for the HRT prescription. I have read here where some therapists follow that religiously and others prescribe it sooner, based on the Therapists feeling about their client.

[kristinacd55]

Real Life Experience. Normally, it is a requirement to live 24/7 for about or at least one year before being qualified to get authorization from one's therapist for the HRT prescription. I have read here where some therapists follow that religiously and others prescribe it sooner, based on the Therapists feeling about their client.

Thank you Allie!! :)

[Aprilrain]

only probs are electrolysis is OUCH and $$$ ... and finding that hair stylist who "knows" you isn't often easy (a good cut and color is expensive, too)

SOOOOO worth it though!!!!

[sandra-leigh]

The province I live in does not have any specific standards about HRT, so any doctor or psychiatrist can prescribe under the same conditions as any other prescription. In practice, though, very few do. Some of them disapprove, some of them do not feel qualified to make GID diagnoses, and some of them do not feel qualified on the medical aspects.

I am fortunate in that I happen to live only a few miles away from the only trans health clinic in my province. This clinic makes its own decisions about HRT, not requiring RLE beforehand, and not even requiring (or requesting) "24/7" during HRT. The clinic explicitly does not operate on a gender binary ("you have to be THIS public in order to board this ride"): it works with people to have them live comfortably with whatever gender expression the people feel is appropriate for themselves.

During my initial assessment (with an intern on a practicum) at the clinic, I wore clothes typical of what I wear to work, not a dress or skirt, no wig, just some lipstick. I said as much, as I didn't want to get hormones under "false pretenses". I had also mentioned that I had been wearing women's clothes at work for 4 years. When it came to the RLE part of the assessment questionnaire, my response was along the lines of "No, none really", but that I had gone out in public a fair bit, sometimes fully dressed but more often in mixed mode (e.g., dress but no wig and trivial makeup). The intern said, "Okay, so we will put down 4 years then". I opened my mouth to start to say No, that was far too much to mark down, but then I realized that the intern was right, that in context the question was not about living as a female 24/7, that instead what they wanted to know was about my experience living with my chosen gender expression, which in my case is a visible blend.

I indicated to the clinic during my intake assessment that I had been seeing a gender therapist for over a year. The clinic asked for permission to write to the therapist. The letter was sent, and my therapist asked me how I would like her to reply; I suggested she just send a brief reply confirming that I had been seeing her and indicating that it was her opinion that I was androgynous and that she thought hormones would be beneficial to me. She was happy with that. (When I had told her first of my decision to go to the clinic and investigate hormones for myself, she did not respond with a "well, if you really want to, I guess I would agree": instead her response was much closer to "Hurray, it's about time!" :) )

I had the distinct impression that the clinic's asking for a letter from my therapist was, in my case, somewhat along the lines of "Well, since you've been seeing the therapist for this, let's get her to put something in writing just for the record: we don't have any problem prescribing even if you don't get a letter, but it makes the health department more comfortable to see higher statistics on the WPATH recommendations being followed."

There are provinces and states and countries that have very rigid standards about 12, 18, or even 24 months of 24/7 before HRT can start. I get the impression that in some states the requirements are designed to reject as much HRT as they can get away with, stopping just short of risking a lawsuit about having effectively outlawed it. A few of the members here have mentioned moving to a different state and waiting out the residency requirements because their home states were so obstructionistic.