Male Privilege

[Bree-asaurus]

So I've started to notice male privilege, or lack-there-of in my case.

I've been diagnosing an electrical problem on my truck. Three times my boyfriend and I went to Autozone. Every time, I was doing the talking, saying how "MY truck has this issue and I'M trying to fix it and what do you think?"

Instead of explaining it to me, when he's done nodding and listening, and then turns to my boyfriend to tell him what he thinks the issue might be. HE'S NOT THE ONE TALKING TO YOU!

They were all wrong with their diagnosis anyway... MEN! Ugghh.....

[Eileen]

What a surprise! Men just naturally think a woman could never know anything about a vehicle. Just another example of men assuming they know it all.

[Gina X]

I think this is endemic in the general male population when my wife was alive she had been disabled from birth despite this she was a very able and capable woman and knew her own medical history inside out as you would. I used to go with her to see various medical specialists mainly for moral support but everytime she told the doctor what her problem was they would then turn to me to give their answer/diagnosis which I used to find embarassing as most of the time I didn't know what they were talking about. The worst offenders were some of the asian doctors who were brought up in a patriarchal society......................

[Bree-asaurus]

It's going to be an interesting change. I'm so used to being able to talk to the guys with no problems when we're talking about cars. I restored a 68 Camaro and did a ton of work on a 78 f150. But now that I have boobs that doesn't matter. It's just assumed that I don't know what I'm talking about or I couldn't understand the super complexities of what these fearless men have to say!

[Melody Moore]

It happens all the time Bree, I had it a few months ago when I went
to get an Tail Light/Brake Light globe or lamp as you might call them.
And yet with something so simple, the woman at the service desk got
on the phone and called a guy to come down and 'Help a lady'. While it
was nice to be addressed appropriately, I felt they thought I was stupid
and had no idea what was wrong with my tail lights. And yet I had the
blown lamp in my hand to make sure I got the correct wattage lamp.

More recently I had some work done on my car and the mechanic gave
me a long list of other things that needed to be fixed, but he insisted
that before he fixes these other problems he wants to give my car a
full service. So now I don't trust him and feel that he is trying to rip
me off, especially with the amount that he quoted me to do the service.

Now I am convinced that if I went in their as a male he wouldn't have given
me such a long list of repairs. So as a result of that I have decided to get a
second opinion next week from a mechanic who will fix the things I asked him
to and not give me so much BS. I was quoted over $500 just to buy a new
set of engine mounts & that is without installation. So that is just way over
the top as far as I am concerned.

It's just one of the negative aspects of being a female, so now
I feel sorry for all other women that get ripped off by these sharks.

[ReineD]

Yeah, isn't it annoying? Just wait until they become condescending when they do talk to you directly, or when they don't answer your questions fully because they think you won't understand, or when they try to hose you with prices because they think you don't know better.

Or when you get paid less for doing the same job as a guy.


... or on a more personal level, when they think they own you and they get all angry and scary when you don't do what they think you should and you're afraid they might use physical force.

[Jorja]

So I've started to notice male privilege, or lack-there-of in my case.

I've been diagnosing an electrical problem on my truck. Three times my boyfriend and I went to Autozone. Every time, I was doing the talking, saying how "MY truck has this issue and I'M trying to fix it and what do you think?"

Instead of explaining it to me, when he's done nodding and listening, and then turns to my boyfriend to tell him what he thinks the issue might be. HE'S NOT THE ONE TALKING TO YOU!

They were all wrong with their diagnosis anyway... MEN! Ugghh.....

Well look at where you were trying to get information from. Most of The employees at AutoZone and the like work at these places because they can't get a job as a real mechanic.

[Stephanie Michelle]

The first to problem is that you went Autozone for repair advise. They are a parts store. Your lucky to get the right parts let alone correct repair advise. Try an auto repair shop or go to the library and look at a repair manual or on-line if they have access.

[Melody Moore]

Yeah, isn't it annoying? Just wait until they become condescending when they do talk to you directly, or when they don't answer your questions fully because they think you won't understand, or when they try to hose you with prices because they think you don't know better.

Or when you get paid less for doing the same job as a guy.


... or on a more personal level, when they think they own you and they get all angry and scary when you don't do what they think you should and you're afraid they might use physical force.
Reine, that was something else I noticed,

When I started to question this guy about why he was insisting
to do a full service he got agitated & started talking down to me.

I know for a fact that the valley covers inside my motor have to be replaced
because there is oil getting in my cooling system & coolant is leaking inside
the motor. It is a common problem for my type of car & for it's age. So to me
the logical thing to me here is to fix these issues before you would give it a
full service give it an oil change. So why put new oil in the motor just so it
can become contaminated with coolant all over again?

When he wouldn't address this issue, I left because he has clearly
put the cart before the horse here and thinks that I can't see that.

Someone should set up an online database of these jerks to blacklist their business.

The auto shop I went to to buy the lamp where I was also made to feel
like a fool sounds like your AutoZone, but here it is called the Auto Barn.

[Schatten Lupus]

After my parents split, my mom would bring me with her almost everywhere she went that was related to cars so they wouldn't be as likely to give her the run around. Hasn't been as bad for her lately, but there are also a couple women who now work at one of the Auto Zones in town.
As for the loosing male privilege, I'm guessing that will probably be the most frustrating part of ceasing a male existence and living as a female. People respect me, come to me for help and advice, hardly question me, and in school my work gets praised by both teachers and students. It sucks knowing my hard work will most likely not put me on the same level anymore, knowing that I could easily make so much more money if I don't transition, and knowing the I'll be bumped down even lower on the list when looking for a job even if I keep my grades up. Sometimes I actually do wish the proverbial pill to make it all go away really existed.


The first to problem is that you went Autozone for repair advise. They are a parts store. Your lucky to get the right parts let alone correct repair advise. Try an auto repair shop or go to the library and look at a repair manual or on-line if they have access.
I've not really had any problems at Auto Zone, except for the size of oil-plug their system has for my car does not actually fit my car, but for whatever reason it's the same at Nappa, Advanced Auto, and O'Reillys. I usually get the stuff for an oil change at Auto Zone, and add a coke and air-freshener or whatever to get the total just over 25 bucks, and after a few times I get the 25 dollars free thing with their rewards program. As for parts, I check the internet first, then all the shops in town ending with Advanced Auto because they will beat any competitor prices.

[Wendy_Marie]

Guess they assume that all that breast tissue was relocated from the cranium.....I hate egotist's like this...

[AllieSF]

Well, one way is to complain about it, and another way is to celebrate it. Isn't that what a lot of us are looking for, being treated as a real woman when out in the public? Is the glass half full or half empty? (Sorry, based on a recent thread, I couldn't help myself, LOL).

[Stephenie S]

This just happened to me. Stopped by the auto parts store to get three new wiper blades. Two front and one rear. I knew exactly what I wanted. The same as I got last time. Instead of telling me that the blades I was getting were JUST like what I had, he kept telling me how cheap they were. I don't CARE what they cost, I just want the same blades I got last year!! He NEVER addressed my concerns at all. Even after the nice gentleman had put the blades on my car for me and I was paying, he kept telling me how cheap they were. I don't WANT cheap. I want quality. These are windshield wipers. I need to be able to SEE. If I wanted cheap I would go to WallyWorld.

S

[kellycan27]

LOL nobody ever said that being a girl was going to be easy. You just need to learn how to "play the game", being a girl can not only work against you.... it can work for you. Playing dumb has it's perks also. My g/f (friend) and I came out of the mall and noticed that her brake lights were on, and when we got in the car.. ( honda) she couldn't take it out of park ( the brake pedal has to be depressed before you can shift out of park) We used the a second key to bypass the this feature and shifted out of park. I figured it was the brake light switch so we stopped at pep boys. I told the guy behind the counter what we needed. when he brought the part back I looked at it and asked if it was hard to change? He said no all you have to do.............. I asked ( knowing full well) where it was located. He came out to the car and pointed.. I said it looks easy.. again he said it was..easy. I said I wish I was as smart as you when it came to cars. He then offered to fix it right there. He installed the new switch, but it didn't fix the problem. He went inside and got another guy... they both tried to figure it out, but couldn't. Then they got the brake guy from the service dept to come have a look. He figured it out in like 5 minutes. There was a rubber stop on the back of the brake pedal that the switch sat against that had broken off.. They replaced the rubber stopper and that fixed the problem... My hero! They didn't charge us for labor or the rubber stopper.. and I didn't have to do the work. All i had to do was play dumb and stroke his ego a little. I don't care if he thinks i am a dumb broad.. what's his claim to fame?.. he works at Pep Boys. In the end.. i was happy to have had the problem fixed and he was happy that he was able to impress me :heehee:
As far as repair issues.. If i am told I need this and that.. I ask them to write it all down and put their name on it so that my husband knows who to talk to when he brings the car back. if they were trying to "up sell" me they will usually back pedal and say.. well this and this doesn't need to be addressed now, but have them checked next time you have the car serviced. Usually the legit stuff will be the only thing remaining on the "do it now list".
Another cute little trick I have learned is that.. All auto repair shops ( in Ca anyway) must post a sign regarding estimates ( by the Bureau of Automotive Repair) At the bottom of the sign there is an 800 number. If I think the guy is BS'in me. I'll take out a pen and jot down the number while he's explaining what my car needs.. I'll kind of say it out loud while I am writing it down.. I'll put the paper in my purse and say.. Ya never know.. You were saying?

[Bree-asaurus]

The first to problem is that you went Autozone for repair advise. They are a parts store. Your lucky to get the right parts let alone correct repair advise. Try an auto repair shop or go to the library and look at a repair manual or on-line if they have access.

I was basically asking for advice in the way that maybe something they say sparks an idea. I'm figuring it out on my own and with the help of people on a forum that own my specific truck. I've been working on cars for years, I know what Autozone is good for :P

There is one guy at my Autozone that is pretty damn smart though.

[Persephone]

Funny, pretty much the same thing happens to guys who wander into "girl world." That's why boys are talked down to, diagnosed as ADHD, and recommended for ritalin in elementary school, why girls average higher grades than boys when they have female teachers, why women now exceed men in college attendance, etc. Lifelong scars and penalties result.

Like Allie so wisely said, you can see the glass as half full or half empty. I would add that the grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side of the fence.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Aprilrain]

I'm as dumb about cars now as I was before so no loss there. I actually do know how to change oil but why!?!?!?! Its really not that expensive to have someone else do it.
At my old job I watch with amused skepticism as my co worker decided to changed the oil on the work truck. Long story short we changed the oil twice in one day in a truck (like 8 quarts or something) because he cranked the oil filter back on too tight and punctured the side of the filter with the oil wrench. He would have cost the company WAY less money had he just taken the stupid thing to an oil change place! I wish they still had full service gas stations!!! I would gladly pay a little extra to watch some young buck clean my windshield and get his hands dirty for me!

[Eryn]

Well, to go along with the problem of males assuming that persons with a little extra tissue on their chests aren't technically adept is the equally tough problem of females assuming that every person with a little extra tissue between the legs automatically enjoys being Mr. Fixit and is on call to fix any problem!

[Debglam]

Hey Bree! This is a fascinating thread to me. Since the “ask the Autozone bozo” theme has been adequately covered, I’ll leave it alone.

I know that this condescending attitude towards women exists because I have seen it but I really don’t get it. It almost seems like a game for the average guy but it never made any sense to me. Probably because I’ve had this feminine side to my own personality, I have always really LIKED women, respected their opinions, and thought that their participation has made almost any situation or circumstances better! That is probably why I married a woman who is one of the most competent and capable PEOPLE I have ever met! The “dudes,” “bros,” or “douche bags” depending on what you call them who disregard or disrespect women are just missing out. Their loss!

I like Allie and the others’ opinions who suggested taking advantage of the situation. These losers that are going to try and take advantage of you deserve to have the situation flipped on them. Take advantage of the situation when you get the chance. Kelly’s story is terrific! Bat your eyelashes at them and let THEM fix the problem. As pretty as you are that shouldn’t be too hard! :)

Good luck!
Debby

[Jessinthesprings]

i guess you only have two options:

1. be mad
2. take it as a compliment that you are now accepted as a woman...

I would choose option 2. I don't like being mad.

[Pythos]

That is quite blatant sexism. Your boyfriend should have said to this jerk. "uh, dude. This is not my truck, this is my girl friends truck, tell it to her". I know I would have done that in his case. Following that you then repeat all that you said before, as he steps back. I fraggin hate it when men behave like this.

[Cindi Johnson]

Two sides to that coin. When my son was young, his day-care and school always begged for volunteers to chaperone on field trips. I was a single parent, so (in male mode) I felt I should volunteer. Wow! The mothers and the all-female staff acted as if I had the plague, assuming males could surely not care for kids. Thinking I was some kind of pervert, maybe. (The kids, however, loved having me around).

[Bree-asaurus]

i guess you only have two options:

1. be mad
2. take it as a compliment that you are now accepted as a woman...

I would choose option 2. I don't like being mad.

I'll take #1 since #2 only happens sometimes... I don't pass as much as my pictures would lead you to believe.

[Melody Moore]

Well, one way is to complain about it, and another way is to celebrate it. Isn't that what a lot of us are looking for, being treated as a real woman when out in the public? Is the glass half full or half empty? (Sorry, based on a recent thread, I couldn't help myself, LOL).
I am on the fence about this, while I see it as a compliment, I do see it as sexism as well. But I do see
another advantage in this I that is in knowing who I can trust when it comes to getting services like
mechanical repairs. When the mechanic I questioned started to get agitated by my enquiry I didn't
argue with him about it, I simply said OK & told him that I would think about it & left. I have a list of the
things that he thinks I need to have fixed that I will take to another mechanic to get a second opinion.

So maybe this exercise will save me a lot of money, but not because the mechanic was
any sort of a nice guy who flattered me, but because he was such a chauvinistic dick. ;)

[danielleb]

Aren't we missing the headline of the story? How happy your boyfriend was about this same situation? ;)

[Michelle.M]

I know that this condescending attitude towards women exists because I have seen it but I really don’t get it. It almost seems like a game for the average guy but it never made any sense to me. Probably because I’ve had this feminine side to my own personality, I have always really LIKED women, respected their opinions, and thought that their participation has made almost any situation or circumstances better!

I was thinking the same thing. I have spent a lot of time living and working in latin america, and while there whenever I would treat women with respect, ask for and listen to opinions and in general just be a decent bloke those women would act like I was from the planet of perfect men. Seriously, I got treated like a rock star.

So, as bad as it can be here, remember - it could be worse.

[Badtranny]

I would gladly pay a little extra to watch some young buck clean my windshield and get his hands dirty for me!

OMG!

Trampy party of one, your table's ready!

:-)

[Bree-asaurus]

Aren't we missing the headline of the story? How happy your boyfriend was about this same situation? ;)

Yeah I know, right? lol

[Kaitlyn Michele]

We lose the many years of learning girls and women go through to take advantage of this behaviour..

Although not all men are like this, The more I integrate, the more I see this behavior

What I am also learning is that It's not very difficult at all for a woman to get just about anything she wants from most men..

Some women refuse to play the game...these women are generally known as bitches..hehe...and lots of women that stand up to guys intimidate them and get what they want that way...

[Aprilrain]

omg!

Trampy party of one, your table's ready!

:-)

Sorry add one please I picked the guy from the gas station up!

[kellycan27]

My motto is... let them be in charge until it's time to not let them be in charge. Make it seem like it was their idea..... as long as i get my way.. they can take the credit.:heehee:

[pamela_a]

My motto is... let them be in charge until it's time to not let them be in charge. Make it seem like it was their idea..... as long as i get my way.. they can take the credit.:heehee:

Kelly, I have to agree with you completely. For a man it's all about the ego of the little head. As long as he does what I want him to do he can take credit for it and I might even thank him for being so thoughtful.

[Traci Elizabeth]

I have been around weapons my entire life and am qualified as an expert marksman in many weapon systems. I also teach other women how to protect themselves with a hand gun and help them get their Concealed Weapons Permit. But you talk about a male dominated activity and they HATE that I can out shoot them and know more about weapons than they will ever know. Being a woman is so much fun in a male dominated activity (society).

[JenniferZ2009]

I had some guy at the doctors office try to help me with my programing homework once without me asking for help. He knew nothing about programming or computers. Either he was trying ot impress me or thought he could figure it out.

I have found if you let them feel like they know everything you can get what you want sometimes. I am definitely enjoying female privilege now. I was once late for a solid deadline in my philosophy class so I wore a nice boob shirt and did my makeup nice and got my professor to give me a 2 day extension with no penalty. Never would have happened if I was a guy.

I think that maybe since I dress kinda punky that people dont give me much crap, especially when people find out I am in the mechanical engineering field. Iv'e noticed that I do say that to people a bit and they do tend to treat me better.

[ReineD]

We lose the many years of learning girls and women go through to take advantage of this behaviour..
You mean women who've learned how to play act like 'the helpless one' in order to get what they want from guys? I mean it when I acknowledge that I may be odd or different, but this is not behavior that I respect in a woman. It is not the way that I behave. It's dishonest. It's misrepresentation of the self.



What I am also learning is that It's not very difficult at all for a woman to get just about anything she wants from most men..
Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but this has not been my experience at all. It may have been over a generation ago, but no more or at least, not in the world that I inhabit. I'll admit if a woman is young and beautiful she may be able to wrap one or two guys around her little finger if they want to get into her pants. But, this is not the case for the average woman.



Some women refuse to play the game...these women are generally known as bitches..hehe...and lots of women that stand up to guys intimidate them and get what they want that way...
Or, they get stonewalled, unless they are exceptionally strong and talented and again, this is not the average woman in an average situation.

Chivalry is dead. Long live chivalry!

Admittedly, I may be a little jaded. School of hard knocks, I guess. :p

[Hope]

Yeah. This happens. It has happened for generations, and while it is getting better it certainly hasn't gone away.

I don't mean to sound like a condescending bitch, but welcome to being a girl. THIS is what you signed up for.

Honestly, one of my biggest struggles early on (It is still early on, but earlier on?) for me was remembering to not interact with men in the same ways I always have in the past. Those scripts are familiar and learning new ones is hard. But we have a new place in society now. If we want to fit in, we need to learn to interact with men, not as men, but as women - and a significant part of that is stroking men's egos and tolerating their condescending bullshit. We have gone from being able to forcefully impose our will on the guys around us and demand the respect we were due as men, to having to doing this weird little dance where we seduce men into wanting to help us.

Women's methods of getting what they want and need are much different from those employed by men. As men we were able to demand and insist, and impose our will on others. That is what male privilege really is - the right to demand to have your needs met. As women, we do not have that ability - and so we have to employ different methods to have our needs met. We have to do the little dance where we ask permission, or where we let men know what we would like, and then convince them that they want to give it to us.

You cant talk to the Gomer at Autozone like you know more than he does - it is insulting. You have to ask for his help. When he ignores you, you don't get to be irritated. You have to double down on your attempts at making him want to help you. Bat your eyelashes, smile, ask incredibly stupid questions, tell him how helpful he is, and how you are just SURE that if you have any problems that he will be able to help you. If he is still talking to your boyfriend, shrug your shoulders and keep asking questions - and just listen to the answers he is giving your boyfriend.

Yeah - he is being incredibly rude. Guys are rude to women ALL the time. Get used to it. Why do you think women hate being around men?

You may not like this - you probably do not - I am not particularly fond of it myself, but it is how things are. You can get angry and decry it as sexist, misogynistic BS - OR you can learn to play the game. Which one do you think is going to get you the information you need to fix your truck?



Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but this has not been my experience at all. It may have been over a generation ago, but no more or at least, not in the world that I inhabit. I'll admit if a woman is young and beautiful she may be able to wrap one or two guys around her little finger if they want to get into her pants. But, this is not the case for the average woman.

It isn't about getting into anyone's pants - it is about making a guy feel good about himself when he gives you what you want from him. Certainly a young beautiful girl can use a bit of sexual enticement, but there isn't a guy in the world who thinks he is REALLY going to get a BJ from Miss. Pretty-young-thing in exchange for help with her whatever-it-is problem. It is about playing the gender game that is still VERY alive and well in the world. And I promise that if I can do it (and I do - and I am getting better all the time) the average woman - can do it MUCH easier.

[kellycan27]

Yeah. This happens. It has happened for generations, and while it is getting better it certainly hasn't gone away.

I don't mean to sound like a condescending bitch, but welcome to being a girl. THIS is what you signed up for.

Honestly, one of my biggest struggles early on (It is still early on, but earlier on?) for me was remembering to not interact with men in the same ways I always have in the past. Those scripts are familiar and learning new ones is hard. But we have a new place in society now. If we want to fit in, we need to learn to interact with men, not as men, but as women - and a significant part of that is stroking men's egos and tolerating their condescending bullshit. We have gone from being able to forcefully impose our will on the guys around us and demand the respect we were due as men, to having to doing this weird little dance where we seduce men into wanting to help us.

Women's methods of getting what they want and need are much different from those employed by men. As men we were able to demand and insist, and impose our will on others. That is what male privilege really is - the right to demand to have your needs met. As women, we do not have that ability - and so we have to employ different methods to have our needs met. We have to do the little dance where we ask permission, or where we let men know what we would like, and then convince them that they want to give it to us.

You cant talk to the Gomer at Autozone like you know more than he does - it is insulting. You have to ask for his help. When he ignores you, you don't get to be irritated. You have to double down on your attempts at making him want to help you. Bat your eyelashes, smile, ask incredibly stupid questions, tell him how helpful he is, and how you are just SURE that if you have any problems that he will be able to help you. If he is still talking to your boyfriend, shrug your shoulders and keep asking questions - and just listen to the answers he is giving your boyfriend.

Yeah - he is being incredibly rude. Guys are rude to women ALL the time. Get used to it. Why do you think women hate being around men?

You may not like this - you probably do not - I am not particularly fond of it myself, but it is how things are. You can get angry and decry it as sexist, misogynistic BS - OR you can learn to play the game. Which one do you think is going to get you the information you need to fix your truck?




It isn't about getting into anyone's pants - it is about making a guy feel good about himself when he gives you what you want from him. Certainly a young beautiful girl can use a bit of sexual enticement, but there isn't a guy in the world who thinks he is REALLY going to get a BJ from Miss. Pretty-young-thing in exchange for help with her whatever-it-is problem. It is about playing the gender game that is still VERY alive and well in the world. And I promise that if I can do it (and I do - and I am getting better all the time) the average woman - can do it MUCH easier.

Hope... I have to agree with this for the most part. Well said
Kel

[Pythos]

Ahhhh, perpetuation of sterotypes....isn't it grand.

Honestly some of what I have read hear just makes me hang my head in disgust.

Today at my computer shop a woman came in to pick up her computer. The thing is one of the lightest desktops to be built...she also had more muscle than me. Could she carry her machine to the car? Not when there were two men in the shop that could do it for her.

I despise that mentality. I don't like the notion that women must be served by men. Chivalry was a load of sexist nonsense started in the medieval days, a read up on the history of it may really open your eyes to what it was really about.

There are only a few times in life a woman is "helpless". That includes when she is very pregnant, and very old and frail. Other times women are capable of as much as men (average men, not muscle bound beefcakes).

When women play along with Chivalry in my personal opinion they help women not one iota.

[kellycan27]

Ahhhh, perpetuation of sterotypes....isn't it grand.

Honestly some of what I have read hear just makes me hang my head in disgust.

Today at my computer shop a woman came in to pick up her computer. The thing is one of the lightest desktops to be built...she also had more muscle than me. Could she carry her machine to the car? Not when there were two men in the shop that could do it for her.

I despise that mentality. I don't like the notion that women must be served by men. Chivalry was a load of sexist nonsense started in the medieval days, a read up on the history of it may really open your eyes to what it was really about.

There are only a few times in life a woman is "helpless". That includes when she is very pregnant, and very old and frail. Other times women are capable of as much as men (average men, not muscle bound beefcakes).

When women play along with Chivalry in my personal opinion they help women not one iota.

Easy for you to say... try living and working as a woman 24/7 365 and you will see the disparity that exits. Physical strength is is not even in the ball park of which we are speaking. And try and convince Mr employer and Mr macho that we are up to the task.. we may well be, but don't often get the benefit of the doubt. saying we are equal and treating us as equal are quite different. I actually find your thinking.... quite male. "helpless" is a man's word.. A lot of men look at us in that light, and you can't always fight city hall, so in order to try and eek out our place.. sometimes we just have to go with the flow. And then some man is going to turn it around and blame us. .. priceless!

Kel

[Melody Moore]

Pythos, it disgusts me as well, however I do fully agree with Hope & Kelly here. There are many men out
there who assume women are really useless - women cannot make good decisions & look after themselves.
so they treat us very badly in avain effort where they believe that they can do better - when they can't!

Women really get no choice about this, and if you say something, you are likely to hurt a guy's very fragile
ego. I believe that women are stronger really because they have had thousands of years to get use to this.

This is why I didn't say anything to the mechanic when he started to get agitated because I questioned
him about why he was insisting on servicing my car before fixing other more important mechanical problems.
Knowing the typical male psyche like I do after growing up as one has taught me that a guy like this one,
believes that women are simply not meant to know about such things like motor-mechanics.

Those familiar scripts we learn as males that Hope just mentioned are hard to let go of in favour
of learning new ones. I was talking about this with a girlfriend recently & she is a psychiatrist &
she just said that I had to learn to milk it for what I could instead if I was going to be a woman
because this is what women do. I know that might sound bad, but that is what guys expect.

How many men do you hear whining about being taken for a ride by women? I hear lots of them
complaining that have the view that we are nothing but b!tches. While some women are real b!tches
who do exploit males, I don't believe they are all b!tches, but some men cannot harness any other
concept about women. Especially those that have been before the divorce courts & believe that
the law favours the female very unfairly.

But I wonder who the b!tches were that passed these laws when our own governments are predominately male
dominated domains? where women have been fighting for years to get their foot in the door just to have a voice.

It really wasn't that long ago when women were not even allowed to vote. So this is another
fine example of 'male privilege' where the men are starting to pay a huge price for that privilege. :heehee:

My landlord is a very chauvinistic male who fears women ever getting close to him in any sort of
long term relationship because he fears it will entitle them to a share of his property. He even made
the comment to me one day where he believed that all women should be drowned in a bucket of
water at birth - I cannot express with words how angry it made me feel for him to say that, but I
came very close to wanting to punch his lights out, but walked away shaking my head in disgust
at what he instead. :(

But my landlord is a friend I have known for over 6 years, so when I settled down, I asked him later
on why he had the attitude he has with women. He said he doesn't know any other way to treat
women - he used the term "Treat em mean to keep em keen". At first I couldn't see why he was like
this, but it become more apparent later on. What I learnt here led me to now believe that this is just
this is part of the social conditioning that he & other males go through when they are growing up.
They have learnt this bad behaviour through the examples set by other male peers & their role models.
But at the same time, I can see he tries hard to respect women, but he finds it very difficult to do this.

This has always been one concept I have never been able to get my head around & made me realise
that I was not your 'typical male' who was affected by the pressures put on us to be a "Man's man".

There is another elderly lady who comes here to do my friend's washing & ironing each week because "that
is women's work" according to my friend who told me this himself. So men have taken it upon themselves
to try & put women in their place - sadly there are those out there that believe that all women should be
"barefoot, pregnant & tied to the kitchen sink". :eek:

One day I was having a cuppa with this lady who comes to do his washing & ironing & I mentioned
to her quietly how disappointed I was at times in my friend with some of the things he said to me...
But she told me "if I thought he was was bad, then I should meet his father because he was worse".
This lady told me that she use to date his father & this is where my friend gets his chauvinism from.

In the end she couldn't handle his father's very rude bad behaviour anymore & broke it off. So it is no
wonder why my friend is still single & he has this chauvinistic streak about him. But the truth is if you
are going to treat anyone mean in the first place without giving someone the benefit of doubt, then
what can you really expect here Pythos? Just because we might not be as strong as men, that does
not give them any right to be so disrespectful towards us.

It's a catch 22 really, because guys expect to be used by women, so they treat them badly, so
in response to that there are some women out there that do treat males badly as sad as that is.
Personally I am out to prove to males like my friend that such stereotyping of women is wrong.

So if a guy acts like a dick to me, I won't lower myself to his standards & argue back at him now,
I will just smile nicely & maybe even play the game, but then again I might just get up & walk away.

Please take no offence to this Pythos, but Kelly nailed it when she said that your way of thinking is "quite male".

[Aprilrain]

Easy for you to say... try living and working as a woman 24/7 365 and you will see the disparity that exits. Physical strength is is not even in the ball park of which we are speaking. And try and convince Mr employer and Mr macho that we are up to the task.. we may well be, but don't often get the benefit of the doubt. saying we are equal and treating us as equal are quite different. I actually find your thinking.... quite male. "helpless" is a man's word.. A lot of men look at us in that light, and you can't always fight city hall, so in order to try and eek out our place.. sometimes we just have to go with the flow. And then some man is going to turn it around and blame us. .. priceless!

Kel
Well said Kelly.

Try being talked to like you're a ding dong by your boyfriend or by guys who knew you as a male before! Its like an automatic male response to femininity. All people, male and female, use what they can to make this world work for them, what's wrong with that? I agree with Reine partially in that men are going to respond more to "miss pretty young thing" than say "overweight frumpy rockin the sweats 30 something mom" but again like Hope said it's not because some half wit auto parts store clerk actually thinks he's going to get in to Kelly's, I mean "miss pretty young thing's" panties:heehee:, It just makes him feel good to "impress" or even just be around an appreciative woman for a moment.

[Badtranny]

Male privilege exists and sexism is alive and well, but it's hardly insurmountable. As you all know, I work in the construction industry and I manage people who manage other people. There's no physical disadvantage at my level, and certainly no reason to be masculine but you would never know that by hanging around the office. Men have a certain way of doing things and asserting themselves and that's just the way it is. I'm not openly trans at work (I still dress like a man) but I am totally out as gay/queer/transgender/etc and outside of being called princess and bitch (good naturedly) by most of the alpha types, I don't get treated any differently and I think it's because I've always approached relationships and leadership from a very feminine perspective. I was never going to out-macho those guys as I came up through the ranks, so I found another way. The lesson is, don't engage men or the patriarchy on their terms. Find your own way and a strong clever gal can compete quite equally.

Also, I had lunch with one of my subcontractors yesterday. She is the owner of a successful little video/integration company and she told me that she hopes she's a woman again in her next life too. She looked right at me, winked and said she loves everything about being a woman and she knows I'm going to be very happy. I gave her a hug and said thanks, but that sentiment is not allowed in the TS community and I told her she probably wasn't a real woman.

Ok I'm joking, I just gave her a hug, but I can't help but think about this place sometimes and laugh at the silliness.

[Pythos]

It seems my post about the woman and her computer was missunderstood.

THE WOMAN, insisted that one of the males of the shop (who were busy working on other customer's machines) carry the machine out to her car. SHE stated her being a woman as being why. Something I forgot to mention is that SHE is the one that brought the machine in (this model by the way is one of the lightest desktop models around).

I saw what she did was the "oh, I am a woman, and cannot carry this computer, I need men to do that". This was not myself and my co-worker thinking she needed help, to be honest we had more pressing matters to do.

Why did she not carry her own machine out, when she is the one that brought it in? Because she saw two males in the office working, so why should she when she is a woman. At least that is how I took it.


I had to learn to milk it for what I could instead if I was going to be a woman
because this is what women do

I find this sort of thinking and mentality disgusting. A few thousand steps backwards.

[Melody Moore]

Pythos, in the USA it is customary to tip right? whereas here in Australia it is not.
Americans are use to tipping each other & really expect it in the service industries
and they will get upset if you don't tip true? What I am getting at here it all boils
down to what people are use to. I know there is a bit of an age difference between
you and I but over the years things have changed quite dramatically in the customer
service industry & in how much people do for each other. Maybe this was something
she was use to. When I owned my computer store I use to always carry computers &
monitors out to all my customer's cars. Because back then we didn't have the luxury
of lightweight PCs & monitors - and especially carrying heavy 15" & 17"monitors was
something that I didn't mind doing - it was just an extension of the service & support
that I provided to my clients - I did the same thing for guys by the way.

The way I see it nowadays people in business are getting lazy nowadays in return for lower
profits. This is especially true with how we fill up our cars now. Years ago you would pull up
in the driveway and wouldn't even have to get out of your car because there was an attendant
there that would take care of business for you. Not only would they fill your car up, they would
clean the windshield & check your motor-oil, brake fluid, power steering, automatic transmission
& engine coolant levels & tyre pressures. But then we started to get self-service driveways where
everyone served themselves then pay & for their fuel through a cashier once they were finished.

I remember how guys handled serving themselves without too many issues, but the women were
lost because they never had to do anything like this before. And to expect them to check things
under the hood themselves was definitely asking too much, especially if they are clean & dressed
on on their way to work in the office. As a result of this many women have blown their cars up.

What you have just highlighted here is that customer service is a dying art & if you really had an
issue about extending a little of that to her, then the chances are she won't ever come back to
your store if she knows of another place where they are willing to go that extra mile. In this day
& age of low profits & poor customer service, I was shocked to find a drive way that still meets
& greets customers the old fashioned way & will fill up your car & check things under the hood for
you. As a result of this type of excellent customer service, I don't buy my fuel anywhere else now.

So what this shows here is that sometimes chivalry can go a long way, without appearing so sexist.

You never mentioned how old this woman was by the way, maybe she is an older woman who expects this.

[Bree-asaurus]

It seems my post about the woman and her computer was missunderstood.

THE WOMAN, insisted that one of the males of the shop (who were busy working on other customer's machines) carry the machine out to her car. SHE stated her being a woman as being why. Something I forgot to mention is that SHE is the one that brought the machine in (this model by the way is one of the lightest desktop models around).

I saw what she did was the "oh, I am a woman, and cannot carry this computer, I need men to do that". This was not myself and my co-worker thinking she needed help, to be honest we had more pressing matters to do.

Why did she not carry her own machine out, when she is the one that brought it in? Because she saw two males in the office working, so why should she when she is a woman. At least that is how I took it.



I find this sort of thinking and mentality disgusting. A few thousand steps backwards.

Well hell, if they are going to treat us like idiots, they can at least do our heavy lifting for us ;)

[Aprilrain]

well hell, if they are going to treat us like idiots, they can at least do our heavy lifting for us ;)

exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Melody Moore]

Well hell, if they are going to treat us like idiots, they can at least do our heavy lifting for us ;)
Oh and that too Bree, I was just being a bit more polite ;)

[ReineD]

... and a significant part of that is stroking men's egos and tolerating their condescending bullshit.


As women, we do not have that ability - and so we have to employ different methods to have our needs met. We have to do the little dance where we ask permission, or where we let men know what we would like, and then convince them that they want to give it to us.

When he ignores you, you don't get to be irritated. You have to double down on your attempts at making him want to help you. Bat your eyelashes, smile, ask incredibly stupid questions, tell him how helpful he is, and how you are just SURE that if you have any problems that he will be able to help you.

I strongly disagree with this.

As a single woman who was never interested in the mechanics of cars, when I have an engine problem I ask candid questions to mechanics and I expect honest answers. I am not devoid of logic, and I keep asking the questions until I feel I have an accurate answer. To do anything less, to play the "poor 'lil 'ol me - batting eyelashes" card totally goes against my values. It is something I've seen other females engage in occasionally, and frankly the rest of us GGs just roll our eyes when we see this.

It is frustrating when some men are not willing to genuinely answer the questions because they doubt my ability to understand, although it is much better than it was 30 years ago and thankfully it doesn't happen all that often.

Another example: I was left to care for about 2 acres after the divorce, with limited resources to do it properly. At first I had a 25 lb gas powered weed-whacker, that no matter how hard I tried, I could not pull the chord strong enough for it to start. It was a temperamental machine and I have very poor upper body strength. I would take this weed-whacker to my neighbor and ask him to pull the chord for me. He would, and I would make sure to not stop until the job was all done.

Never once did I play the victim or the helpless card. My neighbor helped me out with an honest request, just as he would have had I been a man. There was absolutely no subterfuge. He never offered to weed-whack for me, nor would I have allowed him if he had. Taking care of my property is my responsibility, not his.

Eventually the weed-whacker wouldn't start, and neither did our very ancient Deere tractor. Fortunately I found a teenager who used to go to school with my son who has a start-up lawn business, with much better equipment than I do, and who together with his buddies does the whole yard in a fraction of the time and physical effort it took me, for a very reasonable price. I avail myself of their services every 2 weeks, at the same cost it would take me to keep my old equipment in good repair, since I would have to hire someone to fix the tractor and weed-whacker every time it breaks down.



It is about playing the gender game that is still VERY alive and well in the world. And I promise that if I can do it (and I do - and I am getting better all the time) the average woman - can do it MUCH easier.

Not in the world I live in. Guys are getting smarter and fewer women are willing to play the helpless role, especially the younger ones, the ones who grew up with moms who are much more independent than the average woman was 30 years ago. :)

Not saying that you can't approach a guy and acknowledge differences such as a lesser knowledge of mechanics, or having less physical strength and asking for his help, but this is a far cry from batting eyelashes, acting dumb, and pandering to his ego.

[danielleb]

Well hell, if they are going to treat us like idiots, they can at least do our heavy lifting for us ;)

This works both ways apparently. I had to ship some wheels/tires from my racecar yesterday. They were bundled together in pairs, so ~60lbs. There were three women in the back and no one in the store. They all made sure to avoid eye contact with me and not lift a finger. I had to lift one on the scale for them to wiegh, and then the women in gym shoes and her work clothes asked the girl in a dress and 5" wedges to move it over to the rollers after weighing! I couldn't help but think what a bitch! By this time a guy had come in and after looking helpless trying to move it off the scale he moved the wheels for me. :P

Now, I'm not actually capable, since I have a really bad back, and had help just getting them out of the car onto a cart. Of course I'm not going to brodacast that and make a thing out of it because that's just how I am, but there are genders and there always will be. It's biologically bred into us. Each carries it's own expectations by the other, so you can either get with it or live as trans/third gender and expect that no one will know how to treat you in any given situation.

[Schatten Lupus]

THE WOMAN, insisted that one of the males of the shop (who were busy working on other customer's machines) carry the machine out to her car. SHE stated her being a woman as being why. Something I forgot to mention is that SHE is the one that brought the machine in (this model by the way is one of the lightest desktop models around).
My mom would have asked for the same. However, as Melody highlighted, she would seem capable but she comes from a time when customer service including more than a half-way enthused greeting at the door. But also her parents came from the early 1900's, and while it wasn't all being barefoot, pregnant, and house slaves for women (my grandmother was very active in church and the Ladies Auxiliary of the VFW, was a waitress at the local VFW building, and even purchased her own war bonds during WW2), there were things that men were expected to do for ladies. And such behaviors and expectations are passed down from one generation to the next. The world is a very different place than it was at the time of the Women's rights movement, but it will take more than a few decades to erase several millenia of social, psychological, and evolutionary conditioning.

[Melody Moore]

Exactly!

Women have proved for over 60 years that they are very capable because
they also built aircraft & machinery while the men were off fighting the war.

And the woman Pythos described carried the computer into the store,so she proved that she was
very capable. However she did expect some service to take it back to her car which isn't expecting
a lot in a customer service related industry after she probably forked out money to have it fixed.

[kellycan27]

Reine
I will agree with you.. In the example I gave.. it was an easy fix. Had the problem been a harder issue to deal with, I would have certainly have paid to have it fixed. In this case we flirted with the guys, they flirted with us, and I don't think there was any expectation that it was anything more than that. In the end.. if was a fun experience for everyone, the car got fixed, and the parts store gained new customers.. I have since recommended it to other people and have been back there myself. I also agree that there aren't too many men who would fall for the batting of the eyes if it was going to cost them money lol.... either in labor, goods or time. In my accounting business.. I don't work for free, but I will give free advice or do something easy...gratis. It doesn't cost me anything, and helps promote good customer relations. I don't have a problem using my womanly wiles to my advantage, but I would draw the line at using them to take "unfair" advantage.... like getting someone to mow a huge section of grass..... without financial compensation. That would just be wrong. A few months ago I had to pick up 26 boxes of laminate flooring at Home Depot. The guy in the flooring department was ever so helpful.. and the entire time he was looking at me like I was on the menu. He loaded the flooring on my cart, pushed it to the register,waited until I paid for it and loaded it in my car. I am sure i could have just thanked him and been on my way. I did thank him, and tipped him $20.00 for his trouble.

[ReineD]

Flirting with someone when you both have fun with it is OK, Kel. :)

I was thinking about this a bit, and I constructed a reverse scenario. If I had a male neighbor who was recently divorced or widowed, and who confessed to me he had no clue how to survive in the kitchen, I would help him out. I'd likely make extra when making a big batch of beef stew now and then, and I would certainly invite him to call me if he needed to know anything specific about cooking. I'd likely give him a few recipes.

I'm saying this to show that people can ask for help without having to resort to wiles, this works both ways, and there are decent men and women who will recognize a need and be willing to help.

[kellycan27]

Flirting with someone when you both have fun with it is OK, Kel. :)

I was thinking about this a bit, and I constructed a reverse scenario. If I had a male neighbor who was recently divorced or widowed, and who confessed to me he had no clue how to survive in the kitchen, I would help him out. I'd likely make extra when making a big batch of beef stew now and then, and I would certainly invite him to call me if he needed to know anything specific about cooking. I'd likely give him a few recipes.

I'm saying this to show that people can ask for help without having to resort to wiles, this works both ways, and there are decent men and women who will recognize a need and be willing to help.

No argument there! I am sure most people would see it in the same manner. Out in the world of strangers I do believe that there is a cat and mouse game that plays out every single day... men and women play it... the difference being in how you play it. In an earlier post I mentioned the disparity between men and women. it's not something that I dwell on.. it is what it is. I wasn't suggesting that we use our advantage as a type of revenge, more so as a perk.
I like men for the most part, and I like the interaction. I enjoy the little cat and mouse game. I understand it and I think most men understand it too. I also believe that there are some genuinely nice people out there, and once you recognize this.. you act accordingly.

[Hope]

Well hell, if they are going to treat us like idiots, they can at least do our heavy lifting for us ;)

Agreed.


Not in the world I live in. Guys are getting smarter and fewer women are willing to play the helpless role, especially the younger ones, the ones who grew up with moms who are much more independent than the average woman was 30 years ago. :)

I think that you have VERY ably demonstrated that the issue isn't your inability to make this happen, but rather it is your unwillingness to play the game. That is cool, everyone should conduct her business in the way she sees fit. Everyone. Even me. But to deny that the game exists is a bit disingenuous - particularly from someone fond of recalling "how it was 30 years ago."

[ReineD]

I'm not being disingenuous, Hope.

It's true that I only live in my own skin and no one else's, but I am fortunate to have always had many close, female friends, no matter where I lived. The women I am close to, the ones I know intimately, do not behave in the vacuous way you describe. It is also not a behavior that I have commonly observed in my day to day life, although admittedly there are a few women who do act that way. :p

There's a difference between being a real woman, and the stereotypical, ditsy female who behaves like this:

Bat your eyelashes, smile, ask incredibly stupid questions, tell him how helpful he is, and how you are just SURE that if you have any problems that he will be able to help you.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edit - This is an hour later, and there is a thought I'd like to share with everyone:

First, second, and third wave feminism has helped women to come into their own in the last century and it has helped them to no longer see themselves as being at the mercy of men. It is the belief in feminist principles, namely gender equality, that also helps the supportive wives of crossdressers to accept their husbands' feminine expressions, and also the supportive wives of transsexuals to accept their (former) husbands' rejection of maleness.

I find it ironic that crossdressers and transsexuals should want to reject the advances made by the women they wish to emulate and become, by adopting a stereotypical behavioral system that is fast going the way of the dinosaur.

A woman can be feminine, intelligent, and free of artifice all at the same time. And it is my observation that today's men increasingly appreciate the new, confidant woman.

So yes, I do become annoyed when I meet a man who does not respect that I am his equal, except perhaps in physical strength and the differences in the things that all individuals become knowledgable about throughout the course of their lives. Being equal and being treated with respect doesn't mean there aren't gendered differences between us. He is still a man, and I am still a woman.

Gender equality does not mean gender sameness and there is no need to adopt a disingenuous manner of behaving, simply to fit into the world of womanhood.

[Jessinthesprings]

I'll take #1 since #2 only happens sometimes... I don't pass as much as my pictures would lead you to believe.

I know that feeling!

[Pythos]

Sorry, no.

I kinda get the feeling that you all think I and my coworker are lazy.

I am an equalist, and I do view women as equals. We do not carry machines out for the male clientele, so why is it we are required to do so for female clientele? (for the elderly, or weak, we will help, no matter the gender).

Sexism is sexism, is sexism. There is no justification for it, either way.


I find it ironic that crossdressers and transsexuals should want to reject the advances made by the women they wish to emulate and become, by adopting a stereotypical behavioral system that is fast going the way of the dinosaur.

I could not have said this any better.

[Debglam]

I find it ironic that crossdressers and transsexuals should want to reject the advances made by the women they wish to emulate and become, by adopting a stereotypical behavioral system that is fast going the way of the dinosaur.

A woman can be feminine, intelligent, and free of artifice all at the same time. And it is my observation that today's men increasingly appreciate the new, confidant woman.

I couldn't agree more. IMHO there is nothing sexier than an intelligent, capable, self-confident woman!

There are segments of the radical feminist movement that are very anti-trans but I think that in general feminists and the trans community are a natural alliance that could accomplish a lot for each other.

[ReineD]

I don't agree with the radical feminists who are anti-trans. I didn't much agree with second wave feminism either, although they did serve their purpose, we did need something radical at the time to pull us out of the 50s. I'm thankful for the third wave. Now we have choices. Now it's OK to be a woman and have gender equality too. :)

[Melody Moore]

I don't agree with the radical feminists who are anti-trans.
While you don't personally agree with this, the statement that Deb just made here has some truth to it.
However those barriers are slowly coming down in more modern times with better education of society.

I had an issue once with a woman online once who proved that there are women like this still left in the
world - but this should be left for another discussion on this topic if you feel the need for further clarity.

[ReineD]

Oh no, Melody, I know they exist. I meant that I disagree with their views.

[Melody Moore]

Ok Reine, I gotcha ;)

It is nice to know that the local gals here accept me in the lesbian community as well which shows that things have
changed in these circles as well. I am heading out this evening to a ladies only function & am really looking forward
to it. But I also see a another really huge benefit in being so close to another large group of women. And I think what
this topic is also showing us is that it is important to have a connection with other females like this. My experiences
& interactions with other women on a regular basis is also teaching me to deal with situations, such as dealing with
other males & other situations I might encounter without reverting back to the male ways of dealing with things.

So I encourage some of the girls here to get involved with some women's groups, even if it isn't your local lesbian group.

[Chickhe]

...just wanted to remind us, it happens to other groups too!

My daughter is a bit shy, so I'm giving her every chance she can get to interact with people... It drives me nuts, I put her first when approaching a staff...and: 1. at the kids library the librarian looks right over her at me...I just stood there and pointed to the kid! ...daughter didn't talk though so after 5 trys I had to speak for her! 2. At the resturant, I let her tell the door person, hello and how many?... they almost always look right at me, not my wife or daughter!

And...for the auto shops! My wife always gets screwed...sometimes they try to do me in too. but I quietly listen until they are done and shoot down all their stupid arguments...or I let them list 100 things I need to do then I say, well today I'm not spending that much so I'll do this and that...only had an issue once where they refused to do anywork because they actually told me they would not make a profit! ...the main thing is....never walk in to a garage and say 'my car has something wrong can you fix it'....you need to go there and say 'I want my break pads changed'. ...Even if you don't do the work you should know what needs to be done.

..I find it facinating though how the subtle language and interactions change with people you know when you are dressed enfem.

[Hope]

I'm not being disingenuous, Hope.

It's true that I only live in my own skin and no one else's, but I am fortunate to have always had many close, female friends, no matter where I lived. The women I am close to, the ones I know intimately, do not behave in the vacuous way you describe. It is also not a behavior that I have commonly observed in my day to day life, although admittedly there are a few women who do act that way. :p

There's a difference between being a real woman, and the stereotypical, ditsy female who behaves like this:

No judgement there at all!

I'm not being vacuous or ditzy or somehow not a real woman - but thanks for the implication - it always helps to be reminded of the perception even among our "supporters."

What I am talking about is a way of interacting in the world that is much more gentile, that is, frankly much more positive, and significantly more vulnerable. The vulnerability is not my first choice - but I don't get to choose - and perhaps the vulnerability is the root of the rest of this? I like the positivity... I lacked it a lot as a guy. The gentleness - well that is a work in progress.

I don't know if you are intentionally denying the differences in the way that men and women interact with the world, or if you honestly don't see them. You may simply not see it, having always interacted with the world in the same way. But for those of us who have lived on both sides it is very plain, and I assure you VERY real.

I can walk through the world, presenting as a woman, and behaving as a guy - demanding, strident, gruff - and I will be perceived as a bitch. I know - I have done it. I don't like it. Or I can behave in a much more femme manner - which after a little familiarization (I still don't know most of the rules I am afraid) feels very authentic to me - and be perceived as one of the girls. That is my preference. That doesn't make me stupid, or vacuous or any less a real woman than any other girl, even though you think it does.

Again, you can choose to play the game or not, but the game exists even if you don't want it to.


Now it's OK to be a woman and have gender equality too. :)

That is an interesting statement.

[Amber99]

Although I see the problem and am opposed to the idea in general, I can't wait for this kind of thing to happen to me. I'm tired of everyone's expectations and it would be an awesome way to know I am passing.

[Louise C]

Bree, i have noticed this myself at my place of work. Whilst i haven't been presenting as female until now, my body language and general demeanor must have changed quite a bit as my boss doesn't really seem to take anything i say too seriously anymore. I don't think he realises but he definitely passes on asking my opinion when problem solving with some of the other senior staff members. It felt very demeaning when he did it the first time, but now i just think that things must be moving forward as he no longer seems to regard me as one of the guys........

[Jennifer Marie P.]

Bree youre right men aaugh they think a woman doesnt know a thing about cars.

[nikkijo]

bree.. next time feel free to call me... id gladly give you real advice being i am in your same shoes AND own a repair shop...... :)


ill PM u my ####

[Pythos]

Louise C.

Your boss's thingie should fall off.

But since that is not going to happen, perhaps you and he should have a little chat.

[Louise C]

:heehee: Generally, he's actually been really supportive to me since everything came out. Especially with some of our more established customers.
I don't think he means to be insensitive with me, i think it's me being a bit overly sensitive at times.
Especially on those bad days we all seem to get.

[noeleena]

Hi.

I spos im one of those who it has made no difference & of cause my age backs that up & who i know & over many years. & it depends on you perspictive of who you are as a person . not wether for me any way wether im a male or female ,

& because people accept me i get respect for who i am not what i wear. im a tradesman in my own right as i am a woman in my own right. & thats how im accepted. by most people over 90 %. i can talk about issues. that relate to my friends as woman only or ...some that relate to men

Yet as a woman im treated as one 100 % why. maybe i know a thing or two. was trained , & learned as well.
I do jobs because our people know i can do them . yet i know other women are very able . tho some men think a bit differently because they wont to be top dog . its a attitude of they know more than some one else. & im not saying they dont its the attitude thats shown. even so not all men are like that.. its nice when they ask you about some thing & you can give a sensable answer in thier langage,

Tho when it comes to comuters i tell them i i know nothing because i dont .. yet they dont treat me as a dumb woman , i am thats another matter,he he ,,,,,you know what im saying . most of the men i interact with are very nice. & treat me accordingly.

& it goes both ways you treat others as you wont to be treated it does work.it does for me. & yes as a woman who is equal.

I do have to addmit some men are very nice. & are good friends ,

...noeleena...

[ReineD]

What I am talking about is a way of interacting in the world that is much more gentile, that is, frankly much more positive, and significantly more vulnerable. The vulnerability is not my first choice - but I don't get to choose - and perhaps the vulnerability is the root of the rest of this? I like the positivity... I lacked it a lot as a guy. The gentleness - well that is a work in progress.

Yes, there is a difference between both genders. I wrote earlier that a woman who approaches the problem without using any stereotypical feminine wiles will still know she is a woman and the mechanic will still know he is a man. Most of the differences are physical but as you say above, another difference may well be in a woman's more open, positive approach, which is an approach she uses universally, with both men and women.

Maybe the mechanic or other men would see her openness as a vulnerability, but I don't look at it that way at all. I just see it as an equalizing approach, which does not attempt to establish any sort of pecking order, but rather establishes respect as an equal with the expectation that she will receive answers that are not dismissive. You said earlier in post #36 that a man "demands and insists, and imposes his will on others." A woman will just assume the respect is there, and she will ask her questions nicely in a non-confrontational way, expecting nothing less than decent answers. But if she is dismissed, she will get impatient like I do.

A woman does not need to stroke a man's ego by batting her eyes lashes and acting dumb. Her positive, open approach is what works best since it is not disingenuous and this is what I meant with my statement about a woman retaining her femininity while still expecting to be seen as an equal.

You know ... there are men who have a great deal of personal magnetism and who use this same open, positive approach. These men are thought of as charming and they get positive results from both men and women in return. :)


Although I see the problem and am opposed to the idea in general, I can't wait for this kind of thing to happen to me. I'm tired of everyone's expectations and it would be an awesome way to know I am passing.


It felt very demeaning when he did it the first time, but now i just think that things must be moving forward as he no longer seems to regard me as one of the guys........

Amber and Louise, although it is understanding that being treated this way is an affirmation of your femininity in the beginning of your transition, after a while believe me this sort of dismissive bias gets old, no matter what side of the fence you're on, whether or not you are transitioned or cis. Guys don't like to be dismissed by a woman who rolls her eyes and impatiently says "Men!" either.

[Louise C]

Amber and Louise, although it is understanding that being treated this way is an affirmation of your femininity in the beginning of your transition, after a while believe me this sort of dismissive bias gets old, no matter what side of the fence you're on, whether or not you are transitioned or cis. Guys don't like to be dismissed by a woman who rolls her eyes and impatiently says "Men!" either.

I agree with what you say, this makes a lot of sense to me, ReineD.

However, i guess i am afraid to raise too much of an issue at the present time due to me not wanting to rock the boat. They have already cut me an awful lot of slack at work, and i guess for the sake of a few moments frustration, i'll just keep quiet. i'm not in a position financially or mentally to lose my job and start over again. I should be stronger at times, i know this, but right now, the most important thing to me is to keep working in order to keep the funds coming in to pay for my rent, meds, and srs. Sounds archaic, but what else can i do?

[ReineD]

However, i guess i am afraid to raise too much of an issue at the present time due to me not wanting to rock the boat. They have already cut me an awful lot of slack at work, and i guess for the sake of a few moments frustration, i'll just keep quiet. i'm not in a position financially or mentally to lose my job and start over again. I should be stronger at times, i know this, but right now, the most important thing to me is to keep working in order to keep the funds coming in to pay for my rent, meds, and srs. Sounds archaic, but what else can i do?

I don't blame you for not wanting to rock the boat right now either, plus it is an entirely different matter when you're dealing with a boss vs. a mechanic you hire to fix your car.

I'm just saying in a larger sense that TSs shouldn't settle for being treated like bimbos. I know this is a strong term, but any guy who won't look a woman in the eyes and give her honest answers is treating her just like that ... a bimbo.

I'm sure that in time you will discover how to assert yourself positively with your boss. It's a question of learning how to establish boundaries, and I'm still learning how, even in my 50s. :)

[Bree-asaurus]

I don't blame you for not wanting to rock the boat right now either, plus it is an entirely different matter when you're dealing with a boss vs. a mechanic you hire to fix your car.

I'm just saying in a larger sense that TSs shouldn't settle for being treated like bimbos. I know this is a strong term, but any guy who won't look a woman in the eyes and give her honest answers is treating her just like that ... a bimbo.

I'm sure that in time you will discover how to assert yourself positively with your boss. It's a question of learning how to establish boundaries, and I'm still learning how, even in my 50s. :)

Oh I won't settle for being a bimbo. I may be a bit ditzy, but I'm not gonna let anyone talk down to me, male or female.

[ReineD]

That's the spirit!! :)

But looking at the bigger picture, any woman who uses all these 'feminine wiles' in an attempt to manipulate men does perpetuate the "bimbo" culture, and this is why other GGs just roll our eyes when we see this.

[Bree-asaurus]

That's the spirit!! :)

But looking at the bigger picture, any woman who uses all these 'feminine wiles' in an attempt to manipulate men does perpetuate the "bimbo" culture, and this is why other GGs just roll our eyes when we see this.

I won't pull the whole bimbo act... but I do ask nicely for my bf to carry things for me :P "Pleeeease..."

[Michelle.M]

I don't think he means to be insensitive with me, i think it's me being a bit overly sensitive at times.


You might be right. And also, many men simply forget how to think with the big head when they are around women. Hence the new [lack of] awareness that he used to value your opinion.

[Eryn]

Just to explore another facet, sometimes it might be to one's advantage to have abilities that are not apparent to the people with whom you are dealing. For example, I understand a foreign language that is commonly spoken hereabouts. One can learn a lot from the "private" conversations that people have thinking that one cannot understand what they are saying.

The same thing applies to a woman who has to deal with a mechanic. If the mechanic is prone to lying to customers he might be less careful about what he says to a woman whom he assumes is clueless. If he starts talking about replacing the muffler bearings and piston return springs a knowledgeable woman has a lot of ammo to use when talking to his manager!

[Michelle.M]

Just to explore another facet, sometimes it might be to one's advantage to have abilities that are not apparent to the people with whom you are dealing. For example, I understand a foreign language that is commonly spoken hereabouts. One can learn a lot from the "private" conversations that people have thinking that one cannot understand what they are saying.

Good point! A friend of mine always likes to say that one of the best parts about being trans is that we get to keep our copies of the guys' playbook and we already know how the game unfolds.

[ReineD]

Good point! A friend of mine always like to say that one of the best parts about being trans is that we get to keep our copies of the guys' playbook and we already know how the game unfolds.

This is an advantage I would truly love to have, when it comes to car mechanics! :)

Just the thought of getting a book to learn about it bores me to tears.

[Melody Moore]

This is an advantage I would truly love to have, when it comes to car mechanics! :)

Just the thought of getting a book to learn about it bores me to tears.
That was one point I tried to make earlier, when I mentioned about how the mechanic I went to wanted to proceed.
I could clearly see the way that he was wanting to do things was going to cost me more money than I was needing
to spend. I just got off the phone with my girlfriend who's boyfriend is a mechanic and he said he will fix my car for
me. So it is a blessing really when this happens & it will save me money & help me to spot the real sharks in the industry ;)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Having been offline for a couple day's i just wanted to say Reine thanks for you response earlier... i dont think there is anything wrong with saying that "girls" as they grow up learn to deal with the reality of dealing with men and the way that men often treat women.. i never learned that... its just a pragmatic view of my reality...if there was additional connatation i think it was read into it..the thought of playing the helpless one never entered my mind..

you rightly called me out on my statement that women can often get what they want from men..thats way overstated in reality...although i wasnt even remotely thinking about flirting or bimbo like behaviour...i was just talking about understanding men from a female point of view in the work place...women and men have been dealing with each other forever, and i havent... so that was all i was commenting on..i wonder if its hard to seperate the stereotype out, and it sneaks in there, so guilty as charged, but i was only really thinking in my mind about work...

in any case, i'm very much in learning mode on this because i'm just getting back into the work world..

[Hope]

That's the spirit!! :)

But looking at the bigger picture, any woman who uses all these 'feminine wiles' in an attempt to manipulate men does perpetuate the "bimbo" culture, and this is why other GGs just roll our eyes when we see this.

And maybe this is where my disappointment with you comes from. Your willingness to look down on women who choose to live their lives in a way that is different from the way you choose to live your life.

You can't call yourself a feminist, and say that you support a women's right to self determination, but then when she chooses to live differently than you do, dismiss her as a "bimbo," roll your eyes at her, and treat her as if she were less than a "real woman."

[Louise C]

Reading these last few posts brings something to mind - is there only one way of being a woman? Is there a mould we should all adhere to?

........No, i don't think so either! :)

If all trans-people tried to act in a certain way, surely it would be instantly recognisable to others. A bit like a quote from another post about all of Zukowski's girls looking the same and thus being easy to spot.....

[ReineD]

You can't call yourself a feminist, and say that you support a women's right to self determination, but then when she chooses to live differently than you do, dismiss her as a "bimbo," roll your eyes at her, and treat her as if she were less than a "real woman."

At the heart of it all, Hope, it is about being true to oneself and respecting others, whether we are male or female. A woman (or a man) who purposely behaves in a way that is designed to manipulate someone else in order to get what she or he wants does not have my respect. Feminism comes into it since it was a necessary vehicle to give women their voice in the last century, but my argument is not about feminism. It is about integrity.

[TammieIII]

I would find it amusing; In the passed I worked at a personal electronic store, Im pretty tech savy. However, we just hired a young college student and she learned fast, but if we were both at the counter. And she would ask if she could assist someone they would alway start talking to me about thire problem, I found that the women would do more often than the guys, most of the time I would just pass it back on to the you college student to answer the question. I found it amusing and rude all at the same time.

[Jay Cee]

I'll happily put my two cents worth in on this topic - which is fascinating, btw.


If we want to fit in, we need to learn to interact with men, not as men, but as women - and a significant part of that is stroking men's egos and tolerating their condescending bullshit.

First off, reading this made me feel slightly nauseous. If true, I'm going to have a difficult time dealing with being a woman. A very difficult time.

My experiences with interactions between men and women generally have been somewhere between positive and neutral. I do notice that sales people will tend to address me much more often when my SO and I are out shopping for a more expensive item. The most notable time was when Louise was shopping for a new car at a local dealership. It was abundantly clear that it was for her, and that she was the one paying for it, and yet the salesperson addressed 90% of her sales talk to me. Needless to say, she did not get the sale.

As far as men thinking that women are incapable of dealing with "complicated" subjects, I've found that most women that I have talked to really don't care about the technical details of a car, or a computer, or whatever gadget is being discussed. Does that mean that they are less capable? Heck, no! They simply have other priorities. I've learned to edit information for my SO - she doesn't want all the details of an internal combustion engine, or whatever I may have some interest in.

I haven't seen much in the way of the "helpless female syndrome" around here. I am glad of it, too - it is basically a form of manipulation, and a very annoying one.

[Hope]

I haven't seen much in the way of the "helpless female syndrome" around here. I am glad of it, too - it is basically a form of manipulation, and a very annoying one.

You don't have to be helpless. But you do need to learn to interact with the world differently than you do as a man. There are lots of ways you can do that - but it will be different than you deal with the world now. Besides, that girl who looks helpless to you, is anything but. She is way more shrewd and calculating and powerful than the brash feminist who thinks she is going to play with the boys on their terms.

As men we all learned how to play the dominance game. We all learned how to stare down another guy. If you really think you don't have to behave differently around men as a woman, try staring down a guy while wearing a skirt. Seriously, give it a try - I would love to watch.

I guarantee you that if you are passable, and interact with the world as a woman in the same way you do as a man, at best, people will think you are a bitch. Maybe you are comfortable being a bitch? Cool. We all have our place in the world. But women interact with the world differently than men do - and women interact with men much differently than men interact with each other. For a zillion reasons.

[Melody Moore]

I am sorry Jay Cee, but I have to agree with Hope here. As a woman there is a hell of a lot to learn
because women do things & deal with many things very differently to how use were use to as males.

Another interesting observation is how groups of men & women communicate when they are in a
group situation with their same sex peers. And getting use to communicating with a group of woman
is very hard & very mentally demanding compared to communicating with a group of men. With men
in a group, generally one male will be talking while the others are being quite & listening to the speaker.

However when you are with a group of 6 or more women, you will have 2 women over here talking to
each other while at the same time there is another 2 women talking to each other & you are having
another conversation with the other woman. But each & every one of those women know what the
other women are all talking about, they can be monitoring several other conversations while having
one themselves. I think most men could cope with this because it is not how they interact with peers,
with men, there is always respect for their peers not to over-talk each other. This also comes back
to a woman's ability to multi-task, where guys seem to just focus on a single task or agenda usually.

So when you find yourself in a group of women as a woman, you will find it very hard to get a word in
because you would be so use to waiting for your turn to come around to speak that won't ever happen.
With a group of women you feel very awkward at first just trying to get a word in. You will also feel very
exhausted just from trying to take everything in & keep up with everything going on in such a dynamic
group. You will also probably feel very frustrated because the women are not giving you that male privilege
you are use to. So who changes here, is it us or is it them? I think to fit in as a woman takes more work
than many people ever realise.

[ReineD]

As men we all learned how to play the dominance game. We all learned how to stare down another guy. If you really think you don't have to behave differently around men as a woman, try staring down a guy while wearing a skirt.


But women interact with the world differently than men do - and women interact with men much differently than men interact with each other. For a zillion reasons.

I'd like to make peace with you, Hope. :Peace:

I totally agree with what you are saying here. There is a difference between how men and women deal with situations. I cannot see myself being confrontational or territorial with someone (man or woman) when I want results. It seems to me this approach would just put their backs up against the wall and cause them to lock horns in return. You mentioned earlier, a more open, positive approach and I agree, this does work best. You do sense that women approach a situation differently and I'm suggesting the difference is in adopting a cooperative more than a flirty approach.

Men change their stances and relax when they are dealing with a woman. They aren't on their guard as much since a woman poses less of a threat, and so men don't direct the male-oriented, domineering and confrontational vibes toward them. They do instead adopt a more open, cooperative approach ... unless they are sexist and dismissive.

So, maybe we are not at odds after all. I can see a woman feeling as if she needs to pander to a man's ego if she is surrounded by sexist and dismissive men, if this is the only way she can get them to cooperate with her. And perhaps this was the case a generation ago. What I was saying earlier is that men and women have changed and the majority of men I encounter in my daily life are not sexist and dismissive. But, when I do encounter such men, I am able to define my boundaries and I can do this by being firm, without having to resort to bitchiness or coquetry, since I've had enough experiences with cooperative men to have given me the confidence to do so.

[Pythos]

any woman who uses all these 'feminine wiles' in an attempt to manipulate men does perpetuate the "bimbo" culture

It is amazing how difficult it is to get this point across.

[JenniferZ2009]

So when you find yourself in a group of women as a woman, you will find it very hard to get a word in
because you would be so use to waiting for your turn to come around to speak that won't ever happen.
With a group of women you feel very awkward at first just trying to get a word in. You will also feel very
exhausted just from trying to take everything in & keep up with everything going on in such a dynamic
group. You will also probably feel very frustrated because the women are not giving you that male privilege
you are use to. So who changes here, is it us or is it them? I think to fit in as a woman takes more work
than many people ever realise.

I agree with you Melody. That is a very good example of the little things that we need to learn to be able to function living along cis-females. It takes alot of work that many of use are not aware of. Iv'e been reading but not really posting much but here is my thought.

We cant go into these situations bringing along our old playbooks, we have to leave those behind and pick up the new female playbook and start trying to learn the language. I agree the "bimbo" thing can be very annoying but maybe it is a survival skill that she had learned early in life. Maybe she is not that smart but very cute and has learned to use that to her advantage. Whatever her reason is that is her choice. Are we going to get made at a guy for drinking beer while working on a car? That is a stereotypical behavior and makes all men look like savage brutes. The majority of us will just say oh that's just a guy being a guy. Those who look down on a female and up to a guy (or vis versa for a transman) for "perpetuating stereotypes" I think is still living in the old gender. In the case of a female being looked down upon that is something that is a classic male empowerment behavior. Quit acting like such a female and start acting normal like us men or us feminists. That being said, I believe that we should work to remove the strangle hold that men hold on females such as the thought that women belong at home and not in the work place or in power. This however is a different thing than using our female charms to get what we need.

I am not the best fast-talker like my brother and other strong men I have meet , but I am very smart and just got a job with Microsoft doing development work on the Xbox. One quarter in school I was so sick the entire quarter and was late in tuning in an assignment. This assignment had a deadline and would have destroyed my grade and I would have failed the class. It did not get done on time so the day it was due I got dressed real nice (as sexy as can considering it was school) and spoke to my teacher. I got the extension and my grade was saved. I think I used a play from the female rulebook in that one.

[ReineD]

Jennifer, I just want to say that my SO is a college professor, who teaches in guy mode. Please believe me when I say that profs will do what they can to help a student if there is a valid reason, whether they need an extension, or they need to take an exam at a later date ... as long as the student is in good standing.

Profs do want to see their students pass, both the males and females. It reflects well on them. Also, profs are well aware nowadays to not be sexist in terms of student treatment. Things have changed even in just the last 20 years and a prof would jeopardize his career if he were caught giving preferential treatment to a female. You got your extension because you deserve it. :)

[JenniferZ2009]

perhaps..but the deadline was a non-negotiable no extensions whatever deadline.. May have not been the best example then, but my point is still the same.,

[Kaitlyn26]

So I've started to notice male privilege, or lack-there-of in my case.

I've been diagnosing an electrical problem on my truck. Three times my boyfriend and I went to Autozone. Every time, I was doing the talking, saying how "MY truck has this issue and I'M trying to fix it and what do you think?"

Instead of explaining it to me, when he's done nodding and listening, and then turns to my boyfriend to tell him what he thinks the issue might be. HE'S NOT THE ONE TALKING TO YOU!

They were all wrong with their diagnosis anyway... MEN! Ugghh.....

How did I miss this thread? I was trying to fix a car for a friend of my step dad's. I was trying to explain to the "sales rep" that all z28 optioned camaros come with a 5.7L v-8 (and that the one I was fixing was a v-8 car), as she insisted that they could be purchased with a v-6. Ugh stupid people! Finally I got her to sell me the part that was required. She did snicker and say "See you in an hour", as if I was going to need to make a return or something. So at least they didn't laugh at you!

I seriously can not stand the people at the local auto parts store. The guy that's the manager there, and the woman that's the assistant manager are the worst. I've gotten to the point that I won't take their help anymore and tell them to move out of my way, or get someone else.

[Wendy_Marie]

Back to the OP..did you get your truck fixed?

[Bree-asaurus]

Back to the OP..did you get your truck fixed?

I did :) It ended up being a bad ground between the engine and cab. I couldn't find it... so it fell off or was badly corroded or something, but I ran a new ground and everything works! I checked the other grounds, and the main ground from the battery to the engine but totally missed that one. I had torn apart the dash looking for bad linked fuses and realized that it was a grounding issue when I was getting a lower voltage reading using the cab as a ground versus the battery.

[Melody Moore]

She did snicker and say "See you in an hour", as if I was going to need to make a return or something.
Thank you for Kaitlyn for highlighting that it is not only males that assume that females are dumb & don't understand
mechanical issues. Here is a female that just because she doesn't know about such things, it doesn't mean that other
women don't. I spent some time years ago working in spare parts & there was women I worked with that knew more
than I did - so it is wrong for anyone male or female to assume that females don't understand motor mechanics.

I too went to an Autobarn store here to buy a combination 12v tail light/stop light lamp for my car. I had the blown
lamp in my hand. I showed the woman what I was after and told her I wanted to know where to find it in the store.
But instead she got on the phone and called a guy to come down to the front counter to "Help a lady". While it was
very reassuring to me that people are seeing me & accepting me as a female, I was also made to feel that because
I was now a woman I was now "helpless". Not all women are helpless and most don't like to be made feel helpless!!!
But we shouldn't assume it is sexism either when it could be just common courtesy as part of their customer service.

Some mentioned here that as females, we should milk it for all that we can, but that attitude reminds me of the
brainless bimbos you come across in a bar that expect any man they talk to, to buy them drinks for the pleasure
of their company. But the reality is who are these bimbos kidding??? I wised up a long time ago to this and as a
woman this is something I would never do. I feel like I would be lowering myself to something that is just above
gutter level & should be standing on a street corner. No thanks! I think any woman who expects a male to do
everything is extremely selfish & lazy and they also have a lot of tickets on themselves. The reality is they are
living in a bubble and it takes just the tiniest of pricks to all be gone in an instant.

I know women who are like this and for this reason I never really befriended them or if I did, then it never lasted.
I think how we interact and related to other people should be with a healthy equilibrium of equality in all of our
relationships or interactions with other people. Getting angry & upset to the point we start becoming obnoxious,
& start behaving rudely when confronting sexism isn't going to solve the problem. It won't make us look good, it
usually will just make us look a lot worse. But there are more peaceful ways to protest & voice our disgust in more
subtle ways. I did it by just walking out of that mechanics workshop without saying a word & never going back to
him. It might take this guy sometime to figure it all out, but that is his problem to deal with, and the best part is
that I know I walked away with all my dignity still fully intact. :)

[Kaitlyn26]

Not sure if it's gender specific on her part but she's really not my favorite sales rep. I like the younger guy that goes to get the part I ask for without any dumb questions.

Is the car outside? Hmmm, I want to buy an alternator, so no it's not outside. *rolls eyes* :heehee:

The dude that runs the place is even worse. He treats ppl like garbage which is why he never works the sales floor or counter. Every time he asks me if I'm sure about something I say yes! Then he rolls his eyes.

[Bree-asaurus]

Not sure if it's gender specific on her part but she's really not my favorite sales rep. I like the younger guy that goes to get the part I ask for without any dumb questions.

Is the car outside? Hmmm, I want to buy an alternator, so no it's not outside. *rolls eyes* :heehee:

The dude that runs the place is even worse. He treats ppl like garbage which is why he never works the sales floor or counter. Every time he asks me if I'm sure about something I say yes! Then he rolls his eyes.

Yeah I got that at Autozone...

Me: "It won't start. No cranking, no turning, no clicking, no nothing."

Mr. Brilliant: "ok, well is it outside? we can grab the battery and test it"

Me:"No... it won't start... it's at home..."

[Aprilrain]

Yeah I got that at Autozone...

Me: "It won't start. No cranking, no turning, no clicking, no nothing."

Mr. Brilliant: "ok, well is it outside? we can grab the battery and test it"

Me:"No... it won't start... it's at home..."

Some people are just plain stupid it doesn't matter what their gender is!

[Hope]

However when you are with a group of 6 or more women, you will have 2 women over here talking to
each other while at the same time there is another 2 women talking to each other & you are having
another conversation with the other woman. But each & every one of those women know what the
other women are all talking about, they can be monitoring several other conversations while having
one themselves. I think most men could cope with this because it is not how they interact with peers,
with men, there is always respect for their peers not to over-talk each other. This also comes back
to a woman's ability to multi-task, where guys seem to just focus on a single task or agenda usually.

This is a great observation, and you are absolutely right. When I was a pastor I sat through MANY a committee meeting where I was the only "man" in the room. Say what you will about the church and patriarchy, the church is run by women. I used to sit and try to listen to 3 conversations while answering questions of my own, and I just couldn't keep up. And I used to get really irritated when the women had their own side conversations instead of listening to me... Duh.

But now, after 5 months or so on HRT I am finding that I am much better (not yet competent - but it has only been 5 months - I am surprised it has happened at all) at keeping track of the side conversations than I used to be. viva la Estrogen!


I'd like to make peace with you, Hope.

I would like that. I t was never my intent to ruffle your feathers.


I totally agree with what you are saying here. There is a difference between how men and women deal with situations. I cannot see myself being confrontational or territorial with someone (man or woman) when I want results. It seems to me this approach would just put their backs up against the wall and cause them to lock horns in return. You mentioned earlier, a more open, positive approach and I agree, this does work best. You do sense that women approach a situation differently and I'm suggesting the difference is in adopting a cooperative more than a flirty approach.

Maybe. I am not sure it is as pretty as that. It seems to me, and has been reinforced with my own experience, that the difference in technique is due to female disempowerment. As a man, I would not hesitate to lock horns with someone, because I knew how to win that conflict. He was going to do it my way because I was smarter and a bigger bad-ass than he was. Usually. Even if I was a mild-mannered preacher.

As a woman, that option of locking horns with a guy is taken away from me. I don't have that power. I cannot impose my will the way I used to. It is not an option. So I have to use a different technique. I can't force a guys hand, I have to convince him that he wants to help me.

Look at the way men and women order in a restaurant. Men demand. "I will have..." "Give me..." "bring me..." whatever they want. Women - not so much. "I would like..." "May I have...?" Some folks will dismiss this as simply being more polite - and it is more polite, (Think about why women have to be more polite) but it is also much more diminutive. Men can state their demands and expect to have them filled. As women we can make our desires known and if the person in control (not us) feels inclined to fulfill them - wonderful. This example is on my mind this evening because I was out earlier with my wife and slipped up and ordered like a guy and got the weirdest look from the waiter. I no longer have the agency to demand, I must now request or be seen as behaving inappropriately.

I am not saying I like this system - I am just saying it is what I have observed.


So, maybe we are not at odds after all. I can see a woman feeling as if she needs to pander to a man's ego if she is surrounded by sexist and dismissive men, if this is the only way she can get them to cooperate with her. And perhaps this was the case a generation ago. What I was saying earlier is that men and women have changed and the majority of men I encounter in my daily life are not sexist and dismissive.

I don't mean to be the bearer of bad tidings - but I have been behind the curtain. Men have not really become less sexist and dismissive, they have simply learned that they cannot be overtly sexiest and dismissive. I can promise you that at least 80% of the guys you know, talk about how stupid women are, and how they only get their jobs because of affirmative action, only good for one thing, and on and on, when they think they are in a safe environment. I have heard mechanics and plumbers, as well as doctors and lawyers, and DEFINITELY other clergy do this. Locker room banter can be much more disturbing than you are aware of. There are guys who will absent themselves from the conversations, but extraordinarily rarely will they ever speak up and say "no! that isn't right - women are smart capable individuals!" Because the cruel fact is that if you do that - you loose esteem in the eyes of other men. By suggesting that you, as a man, are not better than women, essentially assigns you the rank of a woman. And everybody else in the group is suddenly better than you are.

I assure you, sexism is alive and well. It is just underground.

[Melody Moore]

And I used to get really irritated when the women had their own side conversations instead of listening to me... Duh.
Oh Hope,

I am 100% sure those women would listen to you, but only if you could only just
figure out how to get a word in any way you could into an 'all female' conversation :heehee:

[ReineD]

I would like that. I t was never my intent to ruffle your feathers.
My feathers were never ruffled, Hope. It takes a lot more than a mere disagreement to do this. :)



It seems to me, and has been reinforced with my own experience, that the difference in technique is due to female disempowerment. As a man, I would not hesitate to lock horns with someone, because I knew how to win that conflict.
As a woman, that option of locking horns with a guy is taken away from me. I don't have that power. I cannot impose my will the way I used to. It is not an option. So I have to use a different technique. I can't force a guys hand, I have to convince him that he wants to help me.
I think the difference between you and me is, never having felt the desire to lock horns I don't feel as if I'm missing anything. I consider myself typical when I say that my rules for engagement when I deal with both women and men (unless it is a man I am flirting with), is pretty much the same, especially when it comes to dealing with people about day-to-day stuff.



I can promise you that at least 80% of the guys you know, talk about how stupid women are, and how they only get their jobs because of affirmative action, only good for one thing, and on and on, when they think they are in a safe environment. I assure you, sexism is alive and well. It is just underground.
That's fine. As long as I'm not openly discriminated against when I wish to discuss options for the repairs needed to my car or my home, it doesn't matter to me what some men say about me behind my back. But I bet that the men who listen to such talk and don't defend women, but who also don't participate (as you say, for fear of appearing weak), don't all fundamentally believe that women are inferior creatures. If they do, they know how to put on masks with us admirably well! :)

Women engage in their own version of locker room talk too (typified by the rolling of the eyes, with the interjection of "Men!"). But it doesn't stop them from putting aside differences and dealing with them just as openly as they deal with each other.

On that note, Hope, I've enjoyed our discussion but I don't think we'll come to an agreement. Or perhaps we have, but we're just using different words. :D

[Bree-asaurus]

However when you are with a group of 6 or more women, you will have 2 women over here talking to each other while at the same time there is another 2 women talking to each other & you are having another conversation with the other woman. But each & every one of those women know what the other women are all talking about, they can be monitoring several other conversations while having one themselves. I think most men could cope with this because it is not how they interact with peers, with men, there is always respect for their peers not to over-talk each other. This also comes back to a woman's ability to multi-task, where guys seem to just focus on a single task or agenda usually.

I don't know if this is related, but I thought this was very interesting. I'm personally not able to just sit down and do one thing anymore. Like watching a movie, where I used to be able to sit and focus on just the movie... I now have to be doing something else. I can't sit and just do one thing. Even if it's a movie I love. When working, I usually have something in Netflix playing on the monitor next to my work monitor.

When hanging out in groups, I'm always part of multiple conversations. I remember when "being one of the guys" it was very much the "one person has the floor" way of conversing. I don't know if I followed that rule because that's how I worked at the time or if it was because I was just doing what the other guys do. I always did look to other guys to see what they do and imitate them.

[Wendy_Marie]

I did :) It ended up being a bad ground between the engine and cab. I couldn't find it... so it fell off or was badly corroded or something, but I ran a new ground and everything works! I checked the other grounds, and the main ground from the battery to the engine but totally missed that one. I had torn apart the dash looking for bad linked fuses and realized that it was a grounding issue when I was getting a lower voltage reading using the cab as a ground versus the battery.

I do most of my own automobile repairs as well...but the one thing I hate doing is electrical problems...I can rip out an engine, change a transmission, tear into the differential without hesitation...just don't stick a wiring diagram in my hand and expect me to trace the harness without hearing a lot of cursing and throwing around of tools.....glad you got it fixed.

[Bree-asaurus]

I do most of my own automobile repairs as well...but the one thing I hate doing is electrical problems...I can rip out an engine, change a transmission, tear into the differential without hesitation...just don't stick a wiring diagram in my hand and expect me to trace the harness without hearing a lot of cursing and throwing around of tools.....glad you got it fixed.

Yeah I'm the same way. I put all new wiring in my Camaro, but that was fun because I knew where everything had to go. I don't like hunting down wiring problems though.

[Debglam]

Yeah I'm the same way. I put all new wiring in my Camaro, but that was fun because I knew where everything had to go. I don't like hunting down wiring problems though.

Wiring and electical problems were always an interesting challenge (not including my MG - damn Brits and their 6v Pos ground systems! :Angry3:) UNTIL all this computer controlled crap came into play. If it weren't for my older cars I would have hung my multitester up.

Now don't get me started on carburators vs. fuel injection! :heehee:

Debby

[Kaitlyn26]

Yeah I'm the same way. I put all new wiring in my Camaro, but that was fun because I knew where everything had to go. I don't like hunting down wiring problems though.

I did the same with an older chevy truck once. It was pretty funny. Take off the 35 year old part, find out it's so fragile it falls apart, put on the list of new parts you need. 3 days and several hundred small parts later you find the problem elbow deep in a rats nest. Ah the fun of fixing cars. :p

[Melody Moore]

The best thing about older motors as opposed to new motors was
simplicity. I miss those days of being able to fix everything myself.

[Kaitlyn26]

The best thing about older motors as opposed to new motors was
simplicity. I miss those days of being able to fix everything myself.

Over here in the states it's really not that bad. Most American made efi v-8s are still not that hard to work on. Imo the vehicles I've dreaded working on are, any s-10 or blazer with a 4.3 v-6, or the lt-1 93-97 camaros. I do work on a 2000 ls1 Camaro pretty often for a fellow that has very little personal time but makes a lot of money (truck driver), and it's not too bad to work on it. Nothing is like an old 70s pick up though. You can literally set up shop under the hood beside the engine and go to work on it. Getting under it doesn't even require a jack. Easiest vehicles to work on imo.

Coincidentally the ease of working on an American made v-8 makes them a real consideration for me whenever I buy another car. The fuel mileage may be terrible but at least I won't have to pay someone to fix it. I've been thinking about a Honda though, because I've heard they're also easy to fix if you do not have the newest model.