It’s all about procreation, isn’t it?

[Frédérique]

For most people, i.e. outsiders, the problem with MtF crossdressing is its implied effect on procreation – you’re supposed to be fruitful and multiply, which involves being attractive to, and attracted by, the opposite sex, and it is expected that you will replicate yourself and your spouse with several jointly created replacements. When a male dresses as a female, he effectively tosses a monkey wrench into the delicately balanced societal machinery that is based upon instinct and routine. In short, you’re up against IT when you crossdress...

Let’s say you’re a heterosexual male, and you like to wear women’s clothing – can I hear an AMEN? The need to procreate may lie at the heart of your desire to keep your secrets secret – I mean, if you wish to attract females, how many potential girlfriends will welcome a MtF crossdresser into their lives? Not only are there issues of confusion (WTF?), but perhaps jealousy enters the equation when you wish to be (or are) more feminine looking than your date. But, what if the female is on the make for a MALE, and you don’t fit the bill in any way, shape, or form? She may be looking for a potential father for her hypothetical children, and these girly ideas you have clash with HER idea of a man. Your procreativeness (or lack of) is on display, or voiced as whispers, and she will no doubt keep looking for someone much more suitable...

Let’s say you crossdressed in the past, and then tucked it away long enough to get the girl, get married, and generate a few offspring. You’ve done the deed, lived up to the expectations of society, and created a few copies of yourself (or your spouse). Well done, but something is missing – the girl you suppressed longs to get “out” again, and her impending appearance will certainly cause friction with your wife and children. Maybe you have disclosed your secret to your bride, and she is either OK with it, indifferent to it, or downright uncomfortable with the idea of having another woman, a male no less, in the immediate vicinity. How to tell the kids? Who did I marry, anyway, and how will this affect my children, all of whom must fulfill their own procreative destiny? It gets very complicated, because nearly everything is turned on its head as you pursue this form of happiness that only makes sense to you...

OK, let’s say you’re young, unmarried, and rather androgynous looking. Your mother is worried about you – how are you going to live up to everyone’s expectations if you don’t “straighten out” and find yourself a nice girl? To society, your androgynous look bespeaks homosexuality, and you are targeted as a queer – well, you don’t dress like everyone else, so you are marginalized and abused, even though, to you, you are merely expressing yourself. The problem is, out there in the real world, expression is suppressed for the good of procreation. There are better things to do with your time, namely bring some progeny into existence. Everyone will breathe a sigh of relief as soon as you change your “look,” invite conformity into your life, and ditch these selfish, counter-productive ideas you have. You need to grow up and make the best use of your brief time on Earth, and that means to do what everyone else is doing, or has done, over and over...

Let’s say you harbor latent homosexual tendencies, and you dress to express yourself THAT way. In certain circumstances, gay males may dress up as females – by gaining a desire to crossdress (for whatever reason), you may come to believe that you are homosexual. Again, the idea of procreation enters the picture, because same-sex relationships are inherently childless. Oh, you can adopt, if you’re living in a state with open-minded individuals at the controls, or you can blithely entertain the opposite sex and suppress your true urges. Surely the crossdressing you love means something, right? I think this perceived threat to “family values,” in the form of same-sex relationships, is a fear of losing the normal procreative lifestyle we have been taught to perpetuate – the instant we step outside the bubble to breathe fresh air, the clouds of contempt appear as if on cue. You CAN pursue happiness, as long as its sanctioned happiness...

Let’s say you’re a shy person, always have been, and you really don’t wish to grow up and do all those things that adults do. This is either a really beautiful idea, or extremely selfish, depending on what side of the fence (or the closet) you happen to be. What if you embrace the concept of an INNER child, and you will not let go? Why have children, if you are, in all respects, a child? Are you simply not fulfilling your promise to society, or are you fulfilling a promise to yourself, one borne on the wings of free thinking? In my way of looking at it, there are plenty of individuals (and I use the term loosely) who will carry on perpetuating the human race, and there is plenty of room for the non-participant, the dreamer, or the truly incorporated individual. I take issue with those WHO issue by rote, but I do understand the role of love in this human panorama...

BTW, I like children very much, more so every year that I’m on this spinning ball, so please don’t feel that I dislike children in any way. I’m merely trying to point out that crossdressing might not be accepted, or understood, by the general public because of its threat to disrupt procreation. Out here in Kansas, a very conservative place with generational attitudes, the genders are separated without question – boys are boys, girls are girls, and there will be no discussion, please. When a new baby arrives on the scene, there is a notice in the paper – inevitably, the newborn will have living great-grandparents, and sometimes a great-great-grandmother will be mentioned. This amazes me, and it also tells me that boy-meets-girl is the blueprint for life around here. By my reasoning, everyone marries the first member of the opposite sex that they fancy, they get married young, and children are produced almost immediately (perhaps they HAD to get married!). In this heady atmosphere of heterosexuality, you can imagine how unwelcome a declaration of alternative intent might be. What? No children? No grandchildren???

I’m not putting down the Midwesterners – I am simply making an observation. My sister and I like to compare where we live now with where we used to live (Massachusetts), since the difference is startling. Neither of us ever had children – I suppose I still could, but that’s beside the point. As such, we tend to think freely, unencumbered by what society expects of us, or what our family thinks we should be doing. Of course, it helps to have a dwindling family, fractious, idly wondering why it ever came into being in the first place. I was definitely a mistake, and maybe my two sisters were mistakes as well – we weren’t planned, in other words, nor were we expected to do anything to carry on the family name. Being the only male on a branch of the family tree that was being sawed off while I was being born, I may have been expected to have children – I am the 12th generation since “the boat,” as they say, but nobody ever told me to get busy and create descendents. Maybe my mother sheltered me from expectation, but she did expect me to find “a nice girl” and have a normal life, meaning do exactly what my father did, with some adjustments...

Instincts die hard, I suppose, which is why our beloved MtF crossdressing just doesn’t jibe with anything resembling normalcy. It makes perfect sense to US, of course. I bring my femme “self” into existence, and this is all the procreation I wish to think about. On a parallel course, the artist who creates something will refer to his artworks as his “children,” since ART is the process of bringing something into existence. How ironic, but I see crossdressing the same way – I bring my inner child, a girl, into existence, and she develops her own personal reality as she sees fit. Of course, I am in denial about never having (or helping to create) any children – I once had a very feminine fiancée, and there was once a possibility for offspring. However, that didn’t work out, and my brief flirtation with normalcy didn’t pan out. Sitting here, I can say I’m glad it didn’t, but I shed a tear as I say so. Lately I’ve been revisiting my childhood memories, and it hurts to know I will never be part of my child’s memory. My sons and daughters, or the transgendered variations in-between, are all imaginary...

Do you agree with this idea that the need to procreate fuels this lack of understanding about our crossdressing? I think it has a lot to do with it, since the words queer, alternative, and perverse, all coined by the status quo, have to do with apart-ness and, subsequently, no returns on human investment. You’re supposed to make something OUT of yourself, not BE who you want to be...
:sad:

[Pythos]

Good post, and well thought out.

I made the decision to Not bring another mouth into the world....expecially with MY income level. There is no way I would want to raise a child with the amount of pay I have been getting for what seems like an eon. Even when gainfully employed at United I could in no way afford to support a child.

Really I think how we deal with families is insane. We have two people bring a kid into the world. That couple then while raising the child work. Well it used to be only the man of the house worked and the mom stayed at home. (or even worse, the kid was sent to a Nanny that raised the kid).

We had what I consider a very uneven parental involvement go on. The mom would be at home, and the dad would be at work all fraggin day. Then when he came home he usually was too tired to really do anything with the kid.

So what did that show the kid, out of all honestly. I really did not know my dad. He was always at work, and when not at work, he was either too tired, or he was working out. Yes there were some rare moments when we bonded, but honestly not enough (I do not think this has any bearing on my being TG, I was wearing my mom's stuff long before these issues with my pop became apparent.)

That being said...I do not recall EVER making any kind of promise that I would procreate. I frankly did not ask to be born. I simply was, and I am doing with it what I can. Honestly I think this "desire" to procreate will be one of those things to bring about the destruction of the human race. All you need do is watch idiocracy. Stupid people, people without the means to raise a child, status quo lovers, and so on are the ones bringing kids into the world.

I don't mind kids, but just keep them away from me right now. LOL. I have been around too many badly behaved, rude, screwed up kids to last a life time.

That was one quality of the GG I liked, she stated emphatically she never wanted kids.

Now if I can ever afford to raise a kid, I will adopt.

This world right now is over loaded with humanity, and right now that humanity is killing this world off.

We at present do not have enough jobs for people to do, and every human adds pollution to this planet on a daily basis.

This idea that every man, and every woman must procreate I think is utterly misplaced and in many ways has done serious harm to out planet.

[Aprilrain]

I wouldn't fret over it there are more than enough people! Be who you want to be!

[SweetIonis]

No I don't think it's the need to procreate. I think it's the very intense desire that people have to engage in sex. And I think the proliferation of various methods of contraception is strong evidence to support this assertion. In general people do not have the desire to produce offspring every time they engage in sex. This is because they do not care for the trouble involved in caring for offspring. As a result of this, SOME have inferred that the sexual impulse is so strong because that is the only way in ensure the survival of the species.

[Vickie_CDTV]

Remember, throughout history and up until not long ago people needed to have children in order to have someone help support them when they got old and could no longer work or if they became disabled (if not children of their own, at least some sort of large extended family.) It served a real function and filled an important need (the original "social security" if you will.) It is not surprising that folks have always put such important on getting married and having children, and some of that would still hold over today.

[Shelly Preston]

I dont think procreation has anything to do with it. I think most of it is a lack of education about us. The need for media driven headlines which choose to sensationalise any story involving crossdressing however small a part it plays does not help.

We as a group may be percieved as not wanting to procreate by some, but judging by the number of people who are married with children I find this hard to believe. The sexuallity of a person plays no real part as many men have fathered children who it turned out later had or were having a homosexual relationship.

There are a lot of people who decide something is not right if the dont understand it. During a discussion I once asked a work colleague why someone being gay was so wrong ? The only answer he could come up with was "is its not right"

Even if it were true I dont think the world population is going to go into decline anytime soon given current estimates

[NicoleScott]

No I don't think it's the need to procreate. I think it's the very intense desire that people have to engage in sex.

Animals don't think about procreation. Sexual desire is nature's way of making procreation happen. It doesn't always turn out good, for humans or other animals, but for the benefit of the species, it works pretty good in the long run.

[Danni Renee]

I spent the last 30 minutes typing a reply to partially diagree with your position but after much thought I think you might be on to something. I was thinking the real driving factor for non acceptance is the overall desire for conformity. As I worked my way through it I sort of came to the realization that maybe the desire for comformity is drawn from the desire to produce offspring that are similar to yourself. This is why some people have issues with interracial relationships - not only does it not conform but the offspring produces does not conform to either race either. So maybe procreation is more of a driving factor than we realize.

Danni

P.S. It is Sunday morning! Weekends are supposed to be for fun, not deep thinking!!!! ;)

[Tess]

Remember, throughout history and up until not long ago people needed to have children in order to have someone help support them when they got old and could no longer work or if they became disabled (if not children of their own, at least some sort of large extended family.) It served a real function and filled an important need (the original "social security" if you will.)

Actually, we still need children especially for social security. Declining birth rates is a major reason its headed for insolvency.

[sissystephanie]

I had to print this out to read it since it was so long!! I will try to keep my answer shorter!

If you are a crossdresser with a wife or you intend to be married, it is not, nor should it be, about procreation!! It should be about LOVE!! First and foremost, and really the only thing! Of course I am old fashioned and believe that the lady should be told about the CD'ing before the marriage!! If she doesn't accept it than you two weren't meant for each other!! I told my late wife, she accepted me "as is" and we had almost 50 years together!! And yes we did have 2 wonderful children who never knew that I was a CD until after their mother died, and I told them. I underdressed frequently when they were young, and fully dressed when they were spending some time with the grandparents!! It never was a problem!!

Procreation is fine, and certainly needed, but it should not be what CD'ing is all about!!

[docrobbysherry]

Oh PLEASE, Freddie!
First, you're stealing from the anti-gay's, "why being gay is wrong", playbook!

Why not steal their OTHER most popular argument? "The bible says so"!?

The real PROBLEM we have on this planet is that there r TOO MANY CHILDREN! Once everyone understands the long term consequences of THAT, folks will be CHEERING for MORE childless unions!

[SweetIonis]

As I worked my way through it I sort of came to the realization that maybe the desire for comformity is drawn from the desire to produce offspring that are similar to yourself. This is why some people have issues with interracial relationships - not only does it not conform but the offspring produces does not conform to either race either.


I disagree strongly. The desire for conformity is a result of the desire to avoid the psychological conflict that is a result of the perception of non-acceptance, which is itself a manifestation of the basic instinct that we have to place ourselves as the center of attention and on the pedestal of pre eminence, i.e. what Nietzche called the will to power.

[VioletJourney]

No, it's not all about procreation. There's nothing we are "supposed" to do, we live in a physical world that is just set up a certain way. Procreation CAN happen, but that doesn't mean it HAS to happen (and given the state of our populations it might be a good idea for it NOT to happen).

[Claire Cook]

I confess to having difficulty following this argument. If the reaction is against sexuality that is not related to procreation, then "they" should also be railing against menopausal women having sex and any sort of birth control. No, I think whatever anti-CD/TG biases are out there results from other factors.

[DebbieL]

Fundamentally, sexual desire is a natural instinct, which urges us to procreate. If EVERYBODY stopped having sex forever, if they could play a TV show or commercial that would permanently shut down our desire to have sex, religious leaders would be delighted at the new "morality", but the sudden lack of new children, that lasted forever would create some interesting impacts. The economy would be affected, since single people would no longer have the urge to have sex, men would lose their desire to get married. They wouldn't buy the cars and toys to impress the girls. They wouldn't take dates to restaurants, they wouldn't get married, putting the catering industry out of business. They wouldn't need bigger cars, putting the automotive industry at risk, they wouldn't want to buy homes, putting real-estate into chaos. And so on, the ripples would go through until the existing generation got too old, and died off, the human race would be extinct.

On the other hand, a DECLINE in birth rates might be a good things. In China, they used to have to decide which 20% of the population would be allowed to die of starvation. India had a similar problem. In China, they started telling parents that they would only get state assistance for 1 child. The parents had to pay penalties for having additional children. Because the daughter was supposed to take care of her husband's mother, everybody wanted boys, the girls were either killed at birth, or "sent down" to the orphanages in the cities. 30 years later, women are in short supply and the parents of girls have more negotiating leverage. However, the reduction in the female population lowered the birth rate to a manageable rate, allowing China to create a thriving economy that can sustain it's entire population.

In parts of Africa and South America, lots of children are born, but many die of starvation or Malaria, Cholera, Smallpox, and Dysentery. The killer mosquito kills millions every year.

On the other hand, in some countries, like the United States, infant mortality is very low, most children grow up to be adults, and these children get education and support to be productive responsible members of society. In societies like the United States, replenishing a population is less of a priority.

Scientists have observed that when rat communities get overpopulated and resources become scarce, behaviors change and reproduction is discouraged. Female rats become lesbians and protect each other from males. The male rats also change behaviors. When conditions change and resources are abundant, things go back to "normal".

The human race population has been controlled by wars as well as disease. But in the more recent wars, such as Iraq and Afghanistan, we see much lower mortality rates. Soldiers on the field have bullet-proof and bomb-protective body armor. The enemy can be attacked using remote control missiles and predators, and the weapons are so precise that it's no longer necessary to carpet-bomb entire cities to hit a strategic target.

Perhaps this is why we are seeing an increase in couples and individuals who don't want to have children. Not just homosexuals and transexuals, but even healthy heterosexual couples are opting not to have children.

We are also experiencing globalization. We are seeing that in other cultures, such as India or the Phillipines, transgendered and transexual men are respected and even honored. The exposure to global ideas and cultures has begun to cause a shift away from the right-wing fundamentalist missionary-only sexuality of traditional conservative Christianity. The "free love" heterosexual sex of the 1960s and 1970s shifted to "safe sex" and "alternative sex" driven by the threat of HIV and AIDs, and other STDs that are not as fatal, but are also not curable.

The internet has also helped men and women to discover and share about a wide variety of alternative sexual lifestyles. Being transgendered may seem tame compared to men and women into bondage, latex, breath-play, and other alternatives. Each of these diverse lifestyles has their own driving factors, some of which I wouldn't understand, but with the Internet and on-line dating sites, and public forums, it's much easier to find partners who share similar desires.

The only time a fetish or alternative lifestyle becomes "perverted" is when one partner forces another to do something they would not consent to do. The force could be threats of physical violence, actual physical violence, economic deprivation, isolation, verbal abuse, public humiliation, blackmail, and fraud. Ironically the same is true of a partner who knows about a partner's desires, then uses the unusual desires to manipulate their partner. Sex, whether vanilla coitus, or cross-dressing and bondage, should always and only be done by mutual consent to ALL aspects of the agreement. If a wife agrees to seduce her husband as the maid, but wants the maid to clean the house first, then that is a mutually satisfying agreement that both can accept. Maybe she would like to date you in a dress, but she'd also like you to stop smoking. Those are agreements that involve mutual consent.

At the same time, both sides need to honor their agreements. If the man cleans the house or quits smoking, and the partner then refuses to honor her side of the bargain, there are likely to be consequences to the entire marriage or relationship. There is no longer trust, no longer security, and perhaps even anger and a desire to get even. This could manifest itself in turning to prostitutes, having an affair with someone who will accept them, or even a divorce.

Most states now have "No Fault" divorce, but very often, if you were to dig into the root causes of the end of the marriage, it usually comes down to dishonesty and deception in the areas of sex, money, and power in the relationship. A woman who wants to be "in charge of it" should spell that out early, if hubby-to-be isn't comfortable with that, he shouldn't get married. If hubby wants to dress up like Brittaney Spears or Madonna or Katie Perry, he'd better tell his wife-to-be before the marriage, and she had better be honest about it from the very beginning, or there may be some nasty consequences for both later on, as well as negative consequences for the children.

The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous offers some good guidlines - "Some would give us no flavor for our fare, others would have us on a straight pepper diet..."
"We reviewed our conduct over years past. Where had we been selfish, dishonest, or inconsiderate. Whom had we hurt, did we unjustifiably arouse jealousy, suspicion, or bitterness? Where were we at fault, what could we have done instead? We got this down on paper and looked at it."

Then we develop a "safe and sane" ideal and try our best to live up to it.

The problem for transgendered men is that we spend years keeping our gender identity a secret. We do this to survive, to avoid violence directed at us by boys and young men who are questioning their their own identities and sexuality and need to "prove their man-hood". To them, nothing is more threatening or invalidating than someone who not only does not need to prove his man-hood, but embraces his femininity.

But we have to deal with the reality that any relationship based on true love has to have a foundation of honesty and trust. Better to let a prospective partner know as soon as you think things might be getting serious, and find out that she is not interested then, than wait until after you have made major commitments, and THEN find out that she can't deal with your feminine side.

The good news is that more and more women are able to appreciate a more feminine man, and there are even some women who want to help you become the woman you want to be, this is because there is a broader acceptance of female bisexuality (for example, Katie Perry's I kissed a girl), and a transgendered male is a really good match for a girl who knows she's bisexual.

With the web, there are also more places to meet both men and women who are looking for transgendered men. Not only might he or she be the answer to your prayers, but you might be the answer to his or her prayers.

[Frédérique]

This is not about the virtues of having children or not having children, it’s about crossdressing not being appreciated or supported in “normal” society because (according to outsiders) it goes against instinct. In this case, the meaning of life may be to reproduce, and our CD’ing worries the purveyors of normalcy. Of course, you can crossdress and still fulfill a prescribed procreative destiny, but the ripples of your familial or societal “disturbance” may be felt one way or another, even influencing how you feel about yourself. I wrote a piece last year called “Crossdressing is GREEN,” where I attempted to point out that a disruption in procreation may be useful to the planet, and we alternative types should be thought of in a higher regard. Time will tell...
:straightface:


Remember, throughout history and up until not long ago people needed to have children in order to have someone help support them when they got old and could no longer work or if they became disabled (if not children of their own, at least some sort of large extended family.) It served a real function and filled an important need (the original "social security" if you will.) It is not surprising that folks have always put such important on getting married and having children, and some of that would still hold over today.

Yes, exactly. In this way, survival is the driving force behind procreation, and crossdressing (along with other alternative lifestyles) can be seen as a derailing force in some instances. I’m never going to have children, so I’m staring down the very dark tunnel of a childless life. All I have is my sister, and that’s it – I’ll be alone when I die (if I outlive her). Looking around at my Kansas neighbors, families are large, unswervingly supportive, always getting together one way or another, and when grandpa dies he is inevitably surrounded by loved ones. Taking the path less traveled, I cannot look forward to such a grand exit, but I knew what I was getting myself in to. We'll see what happens...


There are a lot of people who decide something is not right if the don’t understand it. During a discussion I once asked a work colleague why someone being gay was so wrong ? The only answer he could come up with was "is its not right"

Well, you need to think about why someone would say, “It’s not right.” I think they are referring to normal human behavior, where the genders have specific roles, all with procreation in mind. If you dress in the clothing if the opposite sex, you are turning things upside-down, and all “normal” people will get nervous about the consequences. I mean, what if this type of gender “experimentation” catches on, and people do other things, rather than work on the noble activity of keeping the human race going? The instincts are so DEEP, even in this over-populated world, that any visual or sexual gesture outside the boundaries of gender correctness is met with censure. To a lay person, it’s not “right” that you would wish to be apart from a “plan” that has been laid down (in writing, no less) for our benefit, but, looking around, I think we’ve been too successful, and there is room for some long-overdue experimentation...


If you are a crossdresser with a wife or you intend to be married, it is not, nor should it be, about procreation!! It should be about LOVE!! Procreation is fine, and certainly needed, but it should not be what CD'ing is all about!!

I did mention love in the OP, and I certainly understand how you feel, but love often leads to procreation. You can love and not procreate, and you can procreate in the absence of love. Tell me - if I, a male, love my fellow man, why is it considered wrong to do so, if love is so important? I think you’re supposed to procreate, and all other attitudes towards human behavior flow from this instinctual source, since it has a lot to do with survival (see above)...

[mercterr]

Interesting perspective. Nature is full of examples of mates choosing each other based on physical and emotional traits that will ensure both healthy offspring and depending on the animal, security for the mother and offspring. We are ultimately animals and I have to believe that many females have a hard time accepting a cross-dresser as a mate because deep down it does not assure them future security for themselves or their offspring. It sets off alarms in the sub-concious at a primal level. I never considered it before, but it makes sense to me. As a species, we are not as evolved as we would like to think.

[ReineD]

I do think that fundamentally the non-acceptance has to do with the instinct for survival. In order to survive we need to procreate and also to conform, if we are to form social groups in which we can more easily survive against predators and the elements.

True, this scenario is no longer relevant in our modern age. But, how long does it take for the reptilian brain to evolve?

[bridgetta]

struggling myself. i had two days to myself and my feminine is so real and strong. but keeping it hidden is hard.. my girlfriend knows but doesnt approve. and has never seen.. im a fighting myself.. between love for her. and need to be me.. i might post a thread about my real thoughts on this soon..

[kellycan27]

Once again "society" rears it's ugly head. Some people may have some sexual hang ups, but you really believe that "society" as a whole or even a majority gives a rat's butt what people do behind closed doors? I live in a huge city on the outskirts of an even bigger city. I don't know what my neighbors are doing in their bedrooms and I don't care.. I consider myself as pretty average and I believe that most people are just average too... in their thinking. Personally I have never made a secret of the fact that I don't get the whole cross dressing man thing, and that it's not something that "I" would find an attractive trait in a mate.. That being said. I do fully support the rights of cross dressers to cross dress. I don't find it perverse, or weird or sick in any way, and I would stand up to defend their right to do it. Some people find that I am remiss in my attitude and seem to have the opinion that if I don't embrace cross dressing in it's full capacity right up to having a cross dresser in my bed.... that I am some kind of hater or I am prejudiced against them. Sure there are those who hate, but when we use "society" we paint with with a broad brush, and actually alienate those who may not be totally into it, but on the same token don't really care one way or the other. And when we label those few actual haters "society" we build higher walls to climb. There are tons of us roaming around every day without so much as an issue or very few, but when something does happen it's ALL of "society" that seems to be the blame.
it's the same with sexuality.. there are going to be those who's opinion is that what gays,bi's, do is wrong, and there are those who may feel that it's not for them, but couldn't care less what YOU do. I find this board to be a very good place to come for support, but I also see how often times we hamstring ourselves with these type of generalizations. If you look at this logically... Everyday we read threads about success stories, far more of them than the negative. The girls who are venturing out seem to be doing so with a good deal of impunity.. so where do these non-acceptance stories stem from? The occasional news story? People who have heard stories? read stories? are afraid, ashamed? or embarrassed? maybe have had an isolated experience? People who are relating things that may have happened been true but happened 20-30 or 40 years ago? People are evolving, and we need to evolve too. We need to have thicker skin.. just because some people don't agree with the notion of other people's "thing".. it doesn't automatically mean that they hate. As far as non-acceptance by an SO.. You expect your SO to accept the they fact that you cross dress because it's just they you are, or you can't help it, and that you're still the same guy, but you can't accept the fact that she wants nothing to do with it. There's nothing wrong with you're not accepting the way she is, but if she can't accept how you are, she's a homo phobe or trans phobic. She needs to be educated, she needs to be fair. I think that some people are finding out the hard way that their rights don't trump someone Else's, and not every story is going to have a happy ending.

[Pythos]

Kellycan,

You just don't get how your statements about not understanding the crossdressingmale just sit wrong with people considering that at one time in YOUR LIFE, you were a crossdressing man.

Yes you "support" but at the same time, how you can say you don't under stand that which you once were, just makes no sense, at least to me.

Society also is the name given to common thinking, the same common thinking that limits how people can express themselves.

[ReineD]

Some people find that I am remiss in my attitude and seem to have the opinion that if I don't embrace cross dressing in it's full capacity right up to having a cross dresser in my bed.... that I am some kind of hater or I am prejudiced against them.

I don't see why anyone would try to tell you who you should be sexually attracted to. But what you're describing brings to mind a recent objection I had, to someone else who feels the way you do, who chose to air her preferences in a thread by a new GG who is struggling to come to terms with her SO's CDing. I hope this TS didn't think that I was suggesting she should be sexually attracted to CDs. I hope she was able to see that there is a time and place to talk about this, and a new GG's thread is not the right place. :p



so where do these non-acceptance stories stem from? The occasional news story?

It's everywhere Kel. You can see it in people's faces, the incredulous look they give a CD when they read her. You can hear it in their voices when they talk about it, not knowing that a person in the group is actually dating a CD.

The thing is, stealth TSs in my opinion don't experience the bias as much as CDers do, especially young TSs like you!

[kellycan27]

Kellycan,

You just don't get how your statements about not understanding the crossdressingmale just sit wrong with people considering that at one time in YOUR LIFE, you were a crossdressing man.

Yes you "support" but at the same time, how you can say you don't under stand that which you once were, just makes no sense, at least to me.



Society also is the name given to common thinking, the same common thinking that limits how people can express themselves.

I was never a cross dressing man, maybe a cross dressing woman, but never a man. You seem to under the assumption that in order to be a woman.. You must look like a woman or even dress like one. From my earliest recollections I felt female... I never understood why a man who wanted to remain a man would want to dress as a woman, and again I will say that I don't have an issue with them doing it and do and will continue to support their right to do it. I think maybe that if you understood the difference between a transsexual and a cross dresser ( not saying better or worse, just "different") maybe you would understand or it might make more sense to you. I don't think that people who actually do understand the difference would have a problem with my statement. FYI A transsexual feels like she was born in the wrong gender.. A crossdresser (for the most part) doesn't feel like he's a woman, but likes to dress as one. Pretty basic, but I think you get my drift.


I don't see why anyone would try to tell you who you should be sexually attracted to. But what you're describing brings to mind a recent objection I had, to someone else who feels the way you do, who chose to air her preferences in a thread by a new GG who is struggling to come to terms with her SO's CDing. I hope this TS didn't think that I was suggesting she should be sexually attracted to CDs. I hope she was able to see that there is a time and place to talk about this, and a new GG's thread is not the right place. :p


It's everywhere Kel. You can see it in people's faces, the incredulous look they give a CD when they read her. You can hear it in their voices when they talk about it, not knowing that a person in the group is actually dating a CD.

The thing is, stealth TSs in my opinion don't experience the bias as much as CDers do, especially young TSs like you!

I wasn't just talking about transsexuals.. I was talking about the success stories we read about almost on a daily basis right smack in the middle of this m2f cross dressing section. Cross dressers Reine right here in our little family. I am sure what you say happens, but i don't think it's a representation of society as a whole or a majority.

On your other point.. I get your drift and I'll dummy up :heehee:

[Wendy_Marie]

this may or may not fit into what your line of thinking is here Frédérique but I would like to relate something I read in an obscure text book for a Sociology course.

The writer stated that Homosexuality was condemned by the church and outlawed then by the governing bodies of the time for a simple reason...not morality.

Keep in mind that for the majority of modern man's existence a coutries power was judged by it's armies and ability to fight....thats why we read of armies of tens of thousands of soldiers meeting on a single battlefield on any given day.

However, other factors such as War's, Plagues, Famine and Natural Disasters were common as was a low survival rate for babies...and could decimate a countries population very quickly.

Stands to reason then that the powers that be would want a good breeding population so they had men and even women to fall back upon to replenish their armies and keep power when and where they could take it.

I would think then that by these same standards, crossdressers, Transgender and transsexual persons would be seen as a detriment to procreation and were thus scorned and openly killed for the lifestyle they lived....

Just keep in mind that during the time period I am referring to here, while the King may have been the law of the land...The Churches held a great influence over their decisions.

[TGMarla]

This whole procreation idea as a basis for the widespread bias agains crossdressing.....it's not such a tough sell. Our attitudes, social morals, our entire way of thinking, stems from our desire to procreate. Some have suggested it's a desire to have sex, but that desire is instilled in us in order to make procreation happen. Richard Dawkins's 1976 book The Selfish Gene illustrates this whole thing very well. DNA has but one function in and of itself, and that is to replicate itself. He even goes so far as to suggest that our bodies, our existence, and the entire societies we build around ourselves are really only a mechanism designed to allow for procreation to happen.

I've crossdressed my entire life. Whatever role that has played in my endeavors to procreate, I never had the privilege of having any children of my own.

[kimdl93]

As with most things, a certain set of people will assume, incorrectly, that being a CDer means something else. And I do think that societal attitudes are a reflection of the selfish genes that strive for replication. (We're little different from bacteria in that regard.) As a successful procreator (and grand procreator...if that's what you are when you have grand kids)...I know that being a CD doesn't necessarily present an obstacle to reproduction.

Also, not every species demands successful reproduction from every adult. Look at any number of social animals, from ants to wolves. You'll see that some members of the community abstain from reproduction in order to enhance the succesfful survival of others...usually their siblings. The gene gets what it wants ---viable offspring--- and males of the species play specialized roles, sometimes not typically associated with reproductive males. Think of submissive male wolves who hunt and care for the offspring of the Alpha couple.

[Jennaie]

I certainly can see how the pressures of what is expected of us by society can influence our actions and decisions, but what about that guy who has done it all, who no longer has a family and lives alone. He's retired, has no one to answer to and still hides his dressing in the closet, is that about procreation?

[Maria2004]

Finally, it's been said. dis-regarding all the reams of text and over analysis. We live, therefore we have sex, turn the page.

[TGMarla]

We live, therefore we have sex

I'll have to remember to try that line on my wife! :D

[drushin703]

frederique;
i agree with you entirely. Crossdressing is not synonymous with child hating. My delima is that although I love kids, I only like girls a little tiny bit.

There was a new story of a black guy in North Carolina who had fathered 22 children by 16 different women, with all the mothers and children
recieving some form of state assitance.A great many women shook their heads in disgust, while also giving a wink to his virility. NEWS FLASH,
WOMEN WANT BABIES!. Whatever their psychological state of mine, or whatever their intentions (and love is an intention), the end result is
to further this 4 billion people throng and to carry on this civilization.Of all the things I am or have been called, viril is not one of them.No
surprise to me that most women, hitherto, have chosen others to father their children.
I dress up in womens cloths! There, I admit it.I have always done it, even befor the thought of girls or relationships, sex or companionship
I did it.Now what Frederique, unsuitability? Isnt suitability, even the parental kind, a learned and practiced behavour?
I arranged the dresses in my closet today by color, bought a new shade of lipstick, tried Covergirl foundation, shaved my legs again
even thought they didnt need it, brushed the lint from my wig, arched my eyebrows, cried for no good reason, goodled Amerie and danced
in front of my mirror from 12 oclock till two.Now ime tired as hell........so I shall sleep and dream, not of children, but of the angels
of Chagall..........................sissification forever, dana.

[Kaitlyn26]

Have you ever been told to always go with the first answer that pops into your head on a test? It's for a reason. The more you think about it, the more you can talk yourself into anything. The first answer I have when I read the thread title is that people fear that which is different. I think I'm right and you're thinking too much. By your thinking those that dislike MtF cross dressers should also dislike those that openly proclaim they do not want children. Yet it's never been proven that those opposed to having children get anymore attention from the general public than anyone else.

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

My, my what a mind you have Frederique. Your second last paragraph read like a chapter in my life. I still have to put up with why are you single, why have you not provided an heir to the family name, why have I no grandchildren. Maybe partial reason why I refuse to go to family reunions because the questions become pertinent. They are repetitive and produce no constructive discussion, only some sarcastic snare that brings a tint of joy to those who listen to my replies.
Not all of us have children, nor do we have a partner so I am glad to see you outline a few various people here. Shy? yes no trust in anyone? yes most definitely. Desire to meet someone new? if it happens ok, the world is not going to collapse if it never happens.
Do I like kids? I have no honest answer. I think children and their attitude to life and others depend heavily on parents and social moulds. I see many older people in hospitals now who are alone in their wards. No visitors at all despite their children living in the same city. I also see some instances where the parents are still loved so dearly that I would have liked to have a child or two to love me too.
It is the only reason why I would have liked to have had children and yes, I did have a chance to procreate but my beautiful lady at the time was career minded and I respected her for her needs. Maybe if I had children things may have been different, maybe not but it would have been nice to be accepted readily into family reunions as everybody gloated over my partner and my baby and when I look over to the family members, I see a look of contentment as I am accepted without any issues about who I am not. Unfortunately that has not happened and I become the basis for another discussion of "Is he gay? Is he a pervert? Is he really our relative?

NO I AM ME and accept me as I am.

Again a very good post Frederique. You promote thoughts that one can use to see from many directions of who I am.

[Gaby2]

Finally, it's been said. dis-regarding all the reams of text and over analysis. We live, therefore we have sex, turn the page.Well said, Maria... though I'm (possibly:o) not having sex right now because this thread has been enthralling me.:doh:

Firstly, don't be :sad:, Freddy!

You hit on a personal favourite of mine... (among many others, I might add:)):

For most people, i.e. outsiders, the problem with MtF crossdressing is its implied effect on procreation – you’re supposed to be fruitful and multiply, which involves being attractive to, and attracted by, the opposite sex, and it is expected that you will replicate yourself and your spouse with several jointly created replacements..,
Let’s say you’re a heterosexual male, and you like to wear women’s clothing – can I hear an AMEN? The need to procreate may lie at the heart of your desire to keep your secrets secret...
Let’s say you crossdressed in the past, and then tucked it away long enough to get the girl, get married, and generate a few offspring. You’ve done the deed, lived up to the expectations of society, and created a few copies of yourself (or your spouse). Well done, but something is missing – the girl you suppressed longs to get “out” again, and her impending appearance will certainly cause friction with your wife and children...
"The expectations of society" is a very apt formulation that covers many reasons why my wonderful 20-year-marriage ended up defunct.

After my second child was born, I knew from the bottom of my heart that I was facing a tough decision to have a vasectomy or run the very real risk of having one or more children as time goes by.
(And that not necessarily with my Ex!:facepalm:)
The decision to have the operation was helped along by the fact that my Ex was on strong medication at the time.
After the operation I felt a sense of release from "a desire to procreate".

Despite being a proud and extremely happy stay-at-home Dad, I was chronically underworked as a musician, which made me :sad:.
This led to mild though potentially dangerous alcohol problems... I eventually gave alcohol up for four years.
The kids grew older and my secretive CDing became more intense. AMEN.
I can confirm your "friction" statement.
Eventually I decided to separate - the separation took two years in all.

Gaby simply needed to get out.
Just like with my kids... the start was the hardest part.
It is indeed all about procreation...
in many ways I'm Gaby's parent!
:love:Gaby

[docrobbysherry]

I remember reading of an interesting study in my college Sociology class.

A male and female rat were put in a cage. They had sex and reproduced. Then, they and their babies reproduced. They were given unlimited amounts of food and water, but left in the same cage. After a while, the cage was jammed packed with rats! The rats quite having sex and reproducing. They began to die off and no new babies were born. Finally, at the end, there were only a few rats left. Still, they didn't have sex or reproduce and eventually ALL DIED!

So, how many human rats can FIT ON THIS EARTH? It won't happen in OUR life time. But, maybe our grand kids, or great grand kids will STOP HAVING SEX!

Then, just before the end, will gays and CDs become the NORM on the planet?