Self Defense Options

[Kaitlyn26]

I've been observing lately that many posters are interested in self defense options or are fearful in their daily life to some extent. So, I'm going to make a thread about a few options that do not involve lethal force so that hopefully you have a better idea of how to deal with the dreaded situation of someone bigger than you trying to overpower you.

If they have a deadly weapon comply!
I'm not going to tell anyone to ever square off with someone that has a weapon. If someone has a lethal weapon you're much better off giving them what they want, which is normally your wallet. If someone that does not have a weapon attacks you for whatever reason, there are a few methods of dealing with it.

Prevention
First and foremost is always prevention. Most everyone realizes that certain risks are not worth it. Buddy systems, being walked out, all of those things are givens that everyone knows. What a lot of people do not realize is that many other things can reduce risk.

Situational awareness

But I think that situational awareness is the primary key to any good system of self defence and this is where most focus should be given. Yes it is handy to have some goodies handy to use, but each & everyone one of them has their pro & cons and the minute a weapon is used it becomes an even more dangerous situation & you can end up on the wrong side with the law.

Cell phone
For instance if someone is following you, or you're in a risky area, get out your cell phone and pretend you're talking to someone on it. Not only does a cell phone offer a means to dial 911, it also offers a probable witness. It can also be used to take a picture, or just turn on the video camera feature and record the whole thing. Any criminal looking for an easy score will go look somewhere else after they weigh the risk that an active cell phone poses.

Flashlight
Another valuable everyday item that can prove useful in defending yourself is a strong flashlight. I'm sure anyone that's ever been pulled over at night, has had the old flashlight in the eyes trick done. Some officers are more timid or scared than others. It does work very well, even after long periods of time. Veteran officers will watch your pupils, and when they contract and adjust they will move the flash light momentarily to regain the desired affect. Highly annoying but it's an important part of using light as a defensive weapon. If someone rushes towards you at night a strong flashlight will blind them for a time and conceal your true identity, gender, size, and whether or not you were carrying a concealed weapon that's now ready for them. If you have to walk through a bad area at night a simple flashlight (turned off until needed) is a great way to defend yourself without ever touching someone. If they do attack, hit them with it. :p If it's too small to leave a lasting mark, you need a bigger flashlight. It's probably not powerful enough to work effectively if it's not an affective club as well.

An old trick from the street
One of the "oldest tricks in the book" to defend yourself from a larger and stronger person is a simple cylinder object grasped in a fist. A roll of coins works well. The reason this is an effective weapon is that it not only adds weight to your fist but stabilizes the knuckles. One hit from someone using this method can lay out most men, and make a strong point to anyone left standing. It's easy to hide and can work for even the weakest person (to an extent). So if you're not above hurting your knuckles a roll of coins in your purse is a handy thing to get out of a bad situation, if you have to use it. If you have smaller hands a lighter, marker, fat pen, maybe even lipstick could work if it's your last resort.

Kubotan
That leads me to something I carry for my own defense. A kubotan. It's a small cylinder device that a friend of mine recommended. They make them to fit on key chains, and if you like to carry your keys on your hip as many people do, it's a great option. The purpose behind the device is to allow you to maximize pressure over a very small area. Most of them have a dull spike on one end, that when jabbed into just about any joint in the body of an attacker will cause immense pain without breaking the skin. They were originally intended for use by female police officers in California and were originally intended to be used on pressure points. Not everyone can memorize or effectively find pressure points at all times, so the "joint method" was introduced for us amateurs. A quick jab between the shoulder blade and the spine of an attacker with one of these will deny him the use of that arm for several minutes, and hurt very badly. It can also be used as a means to stabilize your fist in the same way that I described above, only much better. I really like this weapon because it doesn't look like much of a weapon, and is very hard to take from someone while they're using it (nothing to grab on to). It's also not as easily resisted as mace.

Baton
Moving up to the larger and more damaging options, is a baton. They're small, concealable, and they do damage. In fact, they break bones and can kill if used wrongly. They're pretty lousy at inflicting non-damaging pain. If you have not heard of this item, it's roughly 8-10 inches long when folded up and will extend to full when being used. Cops and security use them sometimes. The bad thing about them is, as I said they exert force over a larger area. Which is great if your aim is to leave bruises and maybe break some bones. Not so great if you want to cause pain quickly and escape. Intimidation factor is great, useful factor isn't very good. It's also easy and even very smart to take it from the user on the first contact. Which is what most attackers will do.

Lead gloves?
Next up is something that a friend of mine uses at his job. I don't think anyone will want to use this for real self defense but I'm going to add it because the idea is very cool. Gloves with lead plates in the palms. Sounds crazy right? If someone takes a swing at you and you're wearing those, smack their fist with your open and lead lined hand. As far as they're concerned the gloves will feel like punching a wall. He works as a door man and uses them to calm down drunks that insist on fighting.

Stun gun
Another popular choice for self defense is the "stun gun". These can work well if you buy a real stun gun. Avoid the small models with two exposed electrodes that make the cool little arc. They're almost worthless except for intimidation. The real thing looks like this.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&safe=off&q=taser&gs_upl=46055l47157l0l47404l5l5l0l0l0l0l769l2028l5-1.2l3l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1024&bih=648&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=2139818179204174911&sa=X&ei=JvVeTvLkLeTE0AGssPX7Ag&ved=0CGkQ8wIwAg

The smaller things everyone romanticizes over? Are not going to stop anyone. So the real thing is very bulky and not entirely practical. It does have a range of 15 feet and a pretty effective stopping ability though. If you like big purses then one of those might be for you!

Mace
The last thing is mace. The ever popular method. I do not carry it for the simple reason that it's not always effective. Many people will literally eat it for lunch. Seriously, it is consumable. If you do want to use it, it does have a reasonable range and blinds the target for a time period. It would probably be best used on a punk, anyone that is ex-military or has been sprayed a few times by the police will laugh at it.

How do I choose?
Basically when choosing whatever method that's right for you and your needs you want to consider these things. Can I use it effectively? How hard is it for an attacker to use it against me? How easily is it resisted, or what are the chances of it actually working right? I've never had to defend myself with my chosen means of protection but I have had a willing victim, who aloud me to "test" it on him one time. Mine worked as advertised, and he received a great deal of pain.

You forgot something!
If you notice I've left out one very popular method for self defense. The gun. I left it out because one, I don't want this to become a gun thread, and two I do not think something so simple is a good means of self defense. Point it, pull trigger. Anyone can use it and by introducing a gun to a situation you could potentially cause more danger to yourself, especially if they have a gun but are choosing not to use it. Why would they do that? Because as soon as they take the gun out they rack on a substantially heavier charge than simply strong arming you, and even when beaten they still will most likely not use a gun if you're leaving the scene. If you're worried, search them after you've knocked them silly if you have the upper hand. In fact, do not leave until you have been able to search them and know for a fact that they can't shoot you in the back.

If anyone else has any other methods they've found that are quick and easy ways to improve your chance for survival if you ever do get into a dreadful situation, feel free to suggest them for addition.

[Melody Moore]

Thanks for leaving out the guns, because they really are the absolute last line of defence.

But I think that situational awareness is the primary key to any good system of self defence
and this is where most focus should be given. Yes it is handy to have some goodies handy to
use, but each & everyone one of them has their pro & cons and the minute a weapon is used
it becomes an even more dangerous situation & you can end up on the wrong side with the law.

If you haven't got transport & are walking the streets, it makes no sense to me to spend well over $700
on a taser when buying a car or some other mode of transport makes a whole lot more good sense to me.
So some people need to rationalise this better, really weigh up all these options & go with the safest way
that suits them. And I can tell you now, this is one reason why my car really means the world to me. ;)

[Katesback]

Not so much since I moved but when I lived in Fort Lauderdale I always carried a .357 or 9mm and sometimes a 22 stuffed between my boobs. Yes I have a license.

[Kaitlyn26]

Thanks for leaving out the guns, because they really are the absolute last line of defence.

But I think that situational awareness is the primary key to any good system of self defence
and this is where most focus should be given. Yes it is handy to have some goodies handy to
use, but each & everyone one of them has their pro & cons and the minute a weapon is used
it becomes an even more dangerous situation & you can end up on the wrong side with the law.

If you haven't got transport & are walking the streets, it makes no sense to me to spend well over $700
on a taser when buying a car or some other mode of transport makes a whole lot more good sense to me.
So some people need to rationalise this better, really weigh up all these options & go with the safest way
that suits them. And I can tell you now, this is one reason why my car really means the world to me. ;)

That's kind of why I only included one expensive item. :p The rest of them are very cheap or things you may already have but had not considered a self defense item. I also do not want someone picking up a stun gun for 34.99 and having to wait until they need it, to find out it's only going to provide a mild tickle.

[AllieSF]

In addition to Mace, there is pepper spray and that over the counter Wasp and Hornet spray that shoots out a bead of liquid versus a misty spray. However, that spray also comes in pretty large cans. I like the Situational Awareness idea because that is what I have been practicing for over 40 years in many "You should not be walking in this area"areas, and so far it has worked just fine. Another good idea is always try top be walking with at least one other person when out at night in so-so areas.

[JennyA]

great thread, thank you for empowering me

[Kaitlyn26]

great thread, thank you for empowering me

:heehee: Don't go stabbing that evil man that's been following you with a Kubotan. :p That's just not nice. You may want to consider the idea of self defense if you're scared though.

[Hope]

You forgot the one everyone carries with them at all times and is, amazingly, still allowed on an airplane.

Car keys.

You can use one just like a kubotan, or you can jab it into, say, an eye, or between the ribs. It looks completely inconspicuous, but wielded appropriately can be completely devastating. Also hard to take away if you keep your pinky through the ring. Besides - I would rather not add anything else to my purse that I might have to explain when I get stopped by Officer Clueless.

If you ever see me walking alone at night, like MANY women, you will see me walking with my car keys in my hand... it's not because I don't want to dig for them when I get to the car.

[donnalee]

This, for the most part, is great and valuable info; however, a couple of thoughts spring to mind:
1. The cell phone idea is just plain silly. These are stolen as a matter of course, giving the thief access to your address and phone number, as well as those of your friends and loved ones. If you have an IPhone or similar and have downloaded the right app they now have your bank and other financial info as well as the credit cards from your wallet they stole. The best thing you can do is call 911, then immediately throw the phone as far away from you into the most cluttered area you see (i.e. tall weeds are much better than a concrete sidewalk and easier on the cellphone) as you can. With GPS and the 911 call, the police will be able to come to the general vicinity, most likely just in time to take your still warm corpse to the morgue if he has a gun and you don't. The thief won't hang around and look for it.
2. A hand gun is an excellent weapon with the right training and much practice, but it is pretty useless except for use as a half-assed club in close quarters combat. The thief, on the other hand, has had a fair amount of experience at robbing people, and has, in addition, an excellent education in the ins & outs of crime courtesy of our many fine penal institutions. If he (or more likely, they) gets close enough to touch you,your ass is grass, as we used to say. He has the element of surprise and, unless you are small or old and enfeebled, is likely working with a confederate, who will approach from behind if possible. A handgun is effective as a weapon at some distance from the target. It doesn't have to be much distance; it's estimated that most gun battles take place at 7 feet or less and law enforcement training is primarily at this kind of distance; emphasis is on speed and tactics rather than accuracy. I am old school and shoot for accuracy at extended distances. With a 357 or 44 magnum I can "reach out and touch someone" at up to 300 yards, offhand.
It is necessary to put distance between you and potential attackers, preferably with as much noise and drama as possible. The more attention you attract, the safer you are. Running across the street in the middle of the block screaming at the top of your lungs works quite well, particularly when you are dodging motorists. This will cause enough trouble to make possible attackers think about abandoning your robbery and fleeing the scene. If they don't, this is where the gun comes in. Once you draw it, if they advance on you, shoot them. Aiming low will prevent stray shots from hitting the houses behind them for the most part, but your first concern is to keep yourself alive by not shortening the distance between you. Here is where training and practice come in. If you are accurate, you now have the advantage. To people who want to own and carry one let me make this very clear" It is harder than hell to hit ANYTHING with a handgun! It takes a lot of time and effort to learn and maintain accuracy, but it is well worth it. As the late Bill Jordan(World's Fastest Gun) used to say "Speed is deadly, but accuracy is fatal." (If you're curious he died peacefully at around age 90 some years ago). Make sure you practice with your carry gun; it needs to be second nature to draw and fire from the holster you choose.
3. Knowing what areas you are in and watch what's going on there carefully. It is possible to go one city block from a "safe" neighborhood ( in reality there are NO safe areas, there is only safer and less safe) to one that's dangerous; if you can read the street before venturing far from your or another's doorstep, it may save your life.

[Kaitlyn26]

Since you mentioned them......big guns are bad for self defense. The bigger the kick, the lower your rate of accurate fire will be, and the less chance you have of hitting anything. .357 and .44 magnums are worthless for any real self defense and are just going to draw someone's attention. If you don't understand what I'm saying, take an old .38 special to the range and see how many bullets you can put in the target in 8 seconds. Now see how many that .44 magnum can put there in the same amount of time, or see how long it takes you to put every bullet in the target accurately. Now pretend that your target is actually moving and you're shaking like a leaf because you fear for your life. Which gun is going to hit something?

Unless you're Conan, it's going to be the .38 special. My Dad carried a .357 for many years. He took me to the range with him when I was younger. He brought his .357 for him and his .38 for me to learn with. By the end of the day I could sink the whole load in a target and he still couldn't hit a darned thing with any speed. He went back to using his old .38 after that, and did about as well as I was doing. He stopped carrying the .357 after that.

If you need further proof, the updated m16 and AR15s our armed forces use make use of a 5.56mm or a .22 caliber round. The increased muzzle velocity, lower surface area, higher surface force, and reduced kick, made it replace the old 7.62mm rounds. It's a better round, but it's a lot smaller. Again, the old 7.62 rounds are famous for having a lower accurate rate of fire.

Police officers also carry a .40 caliber, not a 9mm as many people think they carry. Soldiers carry the 9mms because that weapon may need to safe their butt in real combat, where more power is the only way to possibly get through light body armor or stop a target dead in their tracks.

I've never seen any veteran gun users recommend a large and ungainly gun for self defense. They just do not work in practice, no matter how appealing the idea of bigger is better is in theory.

I don't shoot guns nor do I carry one for any reason, ever. I do speak to a guy that spends a lot of his time at the shooting range though. He's been shooting, hunting, and generally being an interesting guy for 50 years. His suggestion is to use a gun that you can fire accurately, quickly, and under any circumstance, if you want one for protection. He carries a .40 caliber that's more or less what a cop uses.

That's all I have to say about guns. Please be conscious of what you post, someone may take it and run with it. I'm pretty sure no one wants a member to see that, go buy a .44 magnum, and then find out when the time comes that they made a really bad choice and can't actually defend themselves.

[Bree-asaurus]

I'd say invest in a good flashlight. I have one that is the size of a roll of nickles, but will blind the crap out of you. It's extremely bright, can be used for adding weight to your fist for punching, and there are even some that have pointed edges on the end so you can crack someone's head open with it :P

Example:

http://www.4sevens.com/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=2237

[Zenith]

Surefire Defender in my purse and it's useful for everyday things too...

http://www.surefire.com/video-channel#e2dleddefender

[Gizmo, Debbie]

This sounds mostly American too me so i'll add a touch of UK.
Guns are a no-no for civilians in the UK as are stun-guns/Tasers. Our laws would do there damnedest to prosicute you for using ANY kind of weapon.
We are allowed to use "Reasonable Force" so using the likes of wasp/hornet spray or a flashlight(torch here in the uk) you had better be able to prove you were using "resonable force" otherwise its jail time.
The 1st rule of self defense is always LEG-IT.( aka. run away). Situational awarness is the BEST defence. If you can foresee trouble ahead of your route then simple turn around and go another route. If there is no other route and your journey is essential and you have no choice to enter the danger arean then being aware of your surroundings removes the enemy's advantage of surprise. Surprise attacks can not be defended against.

[suzy1]

I agree with Debbie as I am also from the U.K.
But in my case I only have one form of defence. I can really run fast. And it’s the best defence there is if you get the chance to use it. No one gets hurt.
I had a go at sparring with my 18 year old son using boxing gloves last year. I didn’t stand a chance. He was all over me. Blast!

SUZY

[Kaitlyn26]

Might want to add ducking to the running idea. Hard to run when you've got cob webs and can't see straight after someone connects a blow to your head without boxing gloves on.

I've been in some pretty lousy situations where self defense was required. It's not easy to run when a man is pounding you in the face and you can't see straight or gain your balance. I got lucky and was able to trip him from the ground, get to my feet quickly, and kicked him repeatedly in the temple and side of the head until FINALLY someone called the police. The only reason I made it out of that is because he assumed I was unconscious, which was wrong (I'm a tough little one, if nothing else). Coincidentally, that's how I learned about the coin trick. He had a roll of coins in his right hand, which is why his punches hurt so badly. He was just some bigot that was on a mission to bother me, when his words didn't work he chose to take action. Big mistake.

I can run very fast also. Not when someone is hitting me though.

[suzy1]

Don’t spoil it for me Kaitlyn. I was feeling nice and cosy and safe. Now I am a gibbering mess of nerves.
Thank goodness I live in a sleepy Hampshire village where the worst crime is someone pinching the flowers from a garden last year.

Don’t mess with Suzy!

[Kaitlyn26]

Being able to think quickly is probably the best weapon any of us can have for self defense. The difference between me having the upper hand and him having the upper hand came down to my own thought process. I knew as soon as he hit the ground I had a very small time period to get to my feet before he turned it into a "grappling match", which I would surely lose. So I moved away from him to prevent him from grabbing me, and got back to my feet. Then I let him have it as I tried to maintain my own balance.

If you can apply running to whatever quick plan you formulate, that's great. I just don't think running is always going to be a good plan. Especially if you get hit from behind. It's not like someone that's out to hurt you is gonna be an honest fighter!

[Nicole Erin]

Something seldom brought up in self defense articles is this -
Who is likely to attack?

Well, a single person alone is not likely to mess with anyone. Two people together might but still unlikely. It is when you get a group of three or more idiots that they are bound to get stupid. Problem is, if there is three of them and only one of you, you don;t stand much of a chance if they decide to attack. The only thing you can really do is avoid them.

Plus, supposedly, most people who are raped/robbed/attacked actually know their assailant.
Even would-be assailants who are total strangers know very well that they are risking harm by attacking a stranger. That is why alone people don't normally attack anyone. That is why they have to be in their groups.

The dynamics of dealing with an assailant you KNOW is way different than fending off some stranger. If Joe Rapist jumped out of a bush at you, you would have no problems hurting the SOB. But hurting your "good ol Uncle Joe who everyone loves" is going to be a lot harder.

Since this thread assumes a total stranger is on the attack, yes it pays to have some kind of defense in place. It may or may not work but G.D. it you have to try something. You try to self-defend, you may still get hurt. If you do nothing, you WILL get hurt.

But yeah best of all is just to avoid situations that could prove bad. Like me, I will not leave home just on foot. Sure the stores are reasonably close but I am not going to walk thru this nasty area. Too many slime buckets.

Also, if someone is thinking of taking up self defense "just in case" then why not just invest in a nice gun? I mean is it really worth the money, time, aggravation, etc to learn some "martial art" if only for defense? What if you never have to fight anyone?

And with self-defense measures, some people see them as cruel or ruthless. The thought of spraying someone with a chemical does sound harsh but you don't do that to some good person who you had a mild confrontation with. No, the people who get it are often ruthless *******s who deserve no respect or mercy. What would you want your wife/sister/mom to do if the nondescript Joe Rapist attacked her?.

Oh also if someone wants you to get in their car and has a gun or something, it is still best NOT to. Their intentions are not good either way. You will not do yourself a favor by complying.

[Traci Elizabeth]

There is nothing that beats a handgun for self-defense given you spend the time to practice, practice, & practice as well as getting your concealed weapons permit.

[My Lady Marsea]

One that was not brought up. IF you're like in heels, grab one in each hand and it's pretty easy to figure out where to swing them. 3"-5" of pointy steel centered spikes can soo totally do some major damage on anybody.

[Stephenie S]

Whew. The testosterone runs thick through this thread!

I am famously anti-gun. Not to be anti constitution (I support the right to bear arms) but because they give one a false sense of security. They ARE hard to use quickly. Unless, of course, you carry your gun outside your pants. Like Willie Nelson's "Lefty". "For all the honest world to see".

An armed populace is a dangerous populous. The idea that killing someone is a good idea is just hard for me to swallow. I am 68 years old and have NEVER had the desire to end someone else's life. (Except in anger) And killing someone in anger is never a good idea.

I do want to take issue with something said earlier. If your attacker has a gun "comply". Maybe a good idea. BUT never, never, never get into a car or go ANYWHERE at the point of a gun. This will just make it easier to kill you. And anyone who wishes you to go somewhere else has already decided to kill you. Don't make it easier on them. Fight to your last breath.

There is NO doubt but that situational awareness is by far the best defense. That and company. There is darned good reason why women don't go out alone at night. To do so makes one an easy target.

S

[Joan_CD]

A firearm is a tool like all the other tools mentioned in these posts. As with any tool, practise is necessary. As part of my requalifying every year with firearms we go to an enclosed range. All the lights are turned off. Red and blue strobe lights are turned on and we use our flashlights to help aim. It's damn hard to hit center mass on the target!

There is various levels of merit for all that has been mentioned. But, if you think you are prepared to use a knife, gun, shoe, or anything mentioned, you need to practice a bit. And practice the way it's going to go down. Do about 25 sit-ups or jumping jacks or anything that will get your heart rate up. Shut or lower the lights to simulate nighttime. When you are out of breath, hands shaky and heart racing see how you do! It's not always as easy as it sounds.

Most "gunfights" occur with assailants less than 10-15 feet apart. And most of the time they miss their opponent from the conditions I mentioned. So each shot has to count as if it was the only one to make contact. On duty I carry a Glock 9mm because I trained the most with it and am comfortable with it. But I carry hotter loads with jacketed hollow points so that if I get in a firefight (God forbid please) the round that hits will stop the perp in his tracks. It's just my personal opinion on this and the opinion of many that I work with. With adrenaline pumping through the perp I'm not quite sure a smaller caliber like a .38 would stop the perp/assailant. I don't carry often off duty but when I do it's a .45 that will make a lot of noise, muzzle blast and stop an assailant with one shot. Again this is only my opinion and that of some of the members I work with.

[Kaitlyn26]

I do want to take issue with something said earlier. If your attacker has a gun "comply". Maybe a good idea. BUT never, never, never get into a car or go ANYWHERE at the point of a gun. This will just make it easier to kill you. And anyone who wishes you to go somewhere else has already decided to kill you. Don't make it easier on them. Fight to your last breath.
S

I had a discussion with a member about this earlier. Their position was to run away as soon as you see a gun (the cops say to do that). Mine is to comply with someone until it becomes evident that they are not interested in money or possessions. Call it blind optimism but imo no one is going to kill you over a wallet full of plastic. So just go with the flow and keep your head attached. Imo if you immediately run you risk them panicking due to the loss of control of the situation and killing you out of fear.

[donnalee]

And a few things more:
1. I NEVER advocated a full size magnum as a carry weapon. They are large and heavy, which contributes to their accuracy (longer sight radius makes it easy to position the sights accurately, more weight equals less recoil). You cannot carry something this large and conceal it unless you have a really big purse, a backpack or a suitcase with you and then it's likely to make you walk lopsided. Optical sights are out; too large and likely to snag on the draw. I use a 2" 14oz. .38 for "when things go bump in the night" with a somewhat downloaded soft lead hollow point (PM me & I'll give you the recipe). I DO NOT advocate fragmenting ammunition; again, PM me for details. I am interested in neutralizing the intruder who is unlikely to be wearing body armor and to not have a bullet leave the house (old lath & plaster, not sheetrock and a thin stucco over chicken wire, which I think a .22 rimfire would penetrate). A 3-4" barrel .38 special will fill the bill nicely. You will need to train shooting double action ONLY, after learning single action FIRST and achieving good accuracy (say, all shots in the black consistently at 50 ft. [15 meters or yards is close enough]). Shoot single handed and don't forget to use either hand and either eye. The only thing certain if you get into an armed contact is that NOTHING will go the way you trained for.At this point, you are ready to learn a controlled double action trigger squeeze. You will need to start 2 handed to minimize the gun's deflection from the trigger slamming into the frame. As you improve, periodically try single handed and change eyes to test your new skills. The point of this regimen is to identify the areas you need to work on to improve further. Para-military style three-gun matches are a lot of fun, but don't have much application to self-defense unless there's an invading army (or you're part of one).
I advocate a double action revolver primarily because I'm used to one. A DAO semi-auto such as a Kel-tec P-11 or similar will give you more capacity (11 vs. 6) in a somewhat less effective cartidge; if you can find a P-40, you'll lose one round but gain a much more powerful cartridge. Either of these are a serious handful, need to be shot 2 handed and are difficult to shoot accurately even by an expert. A Compact (Officers) .45 ACP is an even bigger handful; much more effective round, and at 24oz in the lightweight version, will likely set a new meaning for "felt recoil" with full charge loads. The DAO versions are too large and heavy for a concealed carry. The 357 mag of today is more a .38+P load; the demand for ever smaller and lighter revolvers (which are suitable to carry) in this caliber has brought loads down to suit. Kaitlyn, I suspect your dad was much more influenced by the advertising than the actual recoil which is about the severity of the 45 ACP (but different).
2. " If you don't understand what I'm saying, take an old .38 special to the range and see how many bullets you can put in the target in 8 seconds. Now see how many that .44 magnum can put there in the same amount of time, or see how long it takes you to put every bullet in the target accurately." -Kaitlyn26
The point of my post is that if you're getting off a bunch of rounds, you're not making hits in the first place, and now you're out of ammo.This isn't the movies or TV. If he has a gun, which I was postulating and is not frightened off by all the noise, you are in serious trouble. It is possible to shoot 6 rounds accurately from a .44 Mag in 8 seconds. It does take training and practice to do so, but if you are able to, it will have way more effect on the target than a 38 Special. One or 2 hits in a vital zone with any caliber will eventually incapacitate your target, but you need this to happen as quickly as possible for your own safety.
That being said, a hit with a .22 is INFINITELY better than a miss with a .44. You need to find your own niche in this matrix. Good luck.

[Kaitlyn26]

My father wasn't affected by advertisements. He was a letter carrier for 20 years in a very bad area. He carried, his co-workers carried, anyone with a rough route carried a legal gun. They carried full size guns. His friends told him to get the .357 over the .38 special that he was carrying. As I said, he went back to the old trusty .38 special.

If you want to mention a fire arm in a self defense thread I see no reason to name your range gun, rather than your self defense gun. People clicked here to find out what's good for self defense. Thank you for clearing up the notion that you carry a .44 magnum on the street, because it did appear that you were claiming that. There's a reason smaller guns are popular among police officers and criminals alike. They're just more effective in the kind of situations you want for self defense. It might be cool to romanticize about "Dirty" Harry Callahan and his mack daddy gun, but for the majority of people looking for self defense, it's not gonna serve them very well.

[donnalee]

You're still missing the point. Speed is WORTHLESS without accuracy. I was trying to point out what a handgun can do accurately in trained hands. Elmer Keith (the impetus behind the 44 Mag) was able to hit an outhouse sized target consistently at twice that distance. Remaining calm and shooting accurately when all hell is breaking loose is the ideal; getting as close to that as possible is the goal.
Incidentally, it appears you don't know that 38 Special loads can be shot in a 357 with no problem (although I don't recommend a steady diet of target loads; again, PM me for additional info). Your unawareness indicates you are not nearly as knowledgeable on this subject as you seem to think.

[Stephenie S]

I had a discussion with a member about this earlier. Their position was to run away as soon as you see a gun (the cops say to do that). Mine is to comply with someone until it becomes evident that they are not interested in money or possessions. Call it blind optimism but imo no one is going to kill you over a wallet full of plastic. So just go with the flow and keep your head attached. Imo if you immediately run you risk them panicking due to the loss of control of the situation and killing you out of fear.

Well, I guess this thread turned into a gun thread anyway. Well, guys like guns. Just a fact of life, huh?

The reason that cops tell you to run is that hand guns ARE notoriously inaccurate in the hands of a nervous person. This issue has been covered VERY well in numerous posts in this thread. Using a handgun well takes PRACTICE and lots of it, just like makeup. Most perps are freaked out already. Running, especially erratically, IS a viable option. You think it's hard to hit a stationary target? Try hitting a running one.

About size and caliber? It's already been stated before that a hit from a .22 is far better than a miss with a .45, and a good hit from a .22 can be quite fatal enough, thank you.

I liked the comment that the only thing you can count on for sure is that it will NEVER go down just as planned. Something will ALWAYS surprise you. Think practice again.

Practice.

The following has little to do with killing other people, but it DOES have something to do with saving your own life. And it does have everything to do with the importance of practice under adverse conditions. When I was required to learn how to tie a bowline, which is an essential knot to know when you venture off shore in a small boat, my boyfriend made me practice tying that knot standing naked in a cold shower in the DARK until I could tie that knot perfectly every time. I never lost this ability. Did I ever have to save my life with this knot? No. Never. But I can tell you I am more secure and self confident because of it.

If you want to carry a handgun, you had better be darned sure you can use it and use it well in the absolute WORST imaginable situations, not just at a range.

All this talk of death and killing has made my head hurt. I'm done now.

Stephie

[Kaitlyn26]

As I said earlier in this thread, I've been there at least once. When it's happening you don't need anything that requires skill to use. You need the simplest and easiest method to save your butt. You will be shaking, the adrenalin will be flowing, and you will be scared. Remain calm? No, not really! No one that is not used to their life being in danger will be capable of remaining calm. Some police officers have a hard time and they do it everyday. Unless you're ex-military (they're trained) remaining calm is most likely not going to happen.

If you can shoot a .44 magnum accurately while your life is on the line, good on you! This thread is for the many, not for the few. The many would be better off never touching a .44 magnum.

EDIT: I agree Steph. A little less gun talk and a little more about a viable means of self defense.

[JennyA]

This is what I have chosen to protect myself with. It is so badass (http://www.ninjacops.com/sm-flex.html)

I don't have it yet. but I am going to save up the 60 dollars for it.

Dang , I just love it. It seems to be such a great product I can't believe it's only 60. Can anyone think of any cons to this. I think it'll fit in my purse, or I'll just get a bigger purse.

[scarlett]

"An armed society is a polite society."

Robert A. Heinlein

[Kelly Greene]

My sister used to keep a brick in the front seat of her car just incase someone tried to get in.


I can't forget the advice a female police officer gave to a group of women about waiting for their attacker to expose himself and then grab the "jewels" and wring them out like a dish rag, or the old act like you are into what he is doing and get your hands as close to his face as possible then push your thumbs through is eyes trick.

At one time I was able to attend an aikido class for a couple of weeks where I learned a couple of easy wrist locks that work nicely.
And one thing that is nice to know when someone grabs you twist away form the person against their thumb it is the weakest part of the grip if you twist in circles you can usually escape someones grasp.

[Kaitlyn26]

"An armed society is a polite society."

Robert A. Heinlein

Truer words were never spoken.

[Jorja]

First and formost, do not use anything that can be taken away from you and used as a weapon against you. Being armed is only good if you have sufficient training in personal attacks. The average person can not and will not react fast enough for a firearm to be of much use during the initial attack which is when most bodily damage takes place. Remember, an attacker has no regard for your life. They have no problem killing you. Can you say the same? They have the advantage because only they know when the attack is going to take place. Most personal attacks only last 4 - 8 seconds unless the attacker wants something more. 4 - 8 seconds isn't very long but can be an eternity when your life is on the line.

I highly suggest learning basic self defense skills to begin with. Many Police departments and YMCA's have ongoing self defense classes. Learning a martial art like Aikido which is easy to learn and can be used effectively to render your attacker helpless until law enforcement arrives is a great idea. If you are advanced in martial arts, beat the crap out of the punk and enjoy it.

You see, the Navy Seals was good for something. :)

[Kaitlyn26]

If you are advanced in martial arts, beat the crap out of the punk and enjoy it.


I agree with everything except that. In Virginia (yea, good ol' Virginia) you can get in trouble for hitting anyone, even after they've attacked you, if they are currently not facing you on their feet. If someone breaks into your house, and they're leaving your home, or you're in your bed room and they're in your living taking everything you own, you can't go in there and shoot them. I call it the save the criminals law. I'm sure other states have laws like this as well. I think the law specifically reads, that if someone is not clearly defined as a threat to your body, not your belongings, you cannot touch them. Just to give another example. If someone breaks into your home, with no weapons, avoids you altogether, and takes your TV, you can't touch them, or enter the room they're in, without violating law yourself. So watch who you beat up, even a criminal. :)

I learned that the hard way. :) I got lucky though, because I had no previous charges.

[juno]

If the intent is to rob you, the best defense is to throw your purse in one direction, say "all my money is in there" and run the other way.

Also beware of tricks. For example, some people were putting a piece of paper over the rear window of cars. When the driver comes out to remove it, wondering what it is, they are very vulnerable to a surprise attack.

Another good weapon is a cane. It might feel strange to walk with a cane if you don't need one, and it might even make you look like an easy target if you are alone (which you hopefully are not). The advantage is that it using it as a weapon comes as a total surprise, and with practice you can disable them before they have a chance to react. I have not tried it, just read about it.

Personally, I have a pink stun gun and a lipstick-disguised pepper spray.

[Kaitlyn26]

A cane would probably do more to an attacker than your pink stun gun. Just saying. ;)

I found some videos of various tests of some stun guns you can buy.

First is a cheap ebay "stun gun". 6.8 million volts, so they claim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQV0o1pt-Pg

Next is an un-described stun gun that appears to pack some punch if it's used on the leg. Overall, he only looks hurt and would be angry if it were real. Loss of motor function was minimal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e428FJ0HzEI

This one claim 1.8 million volts. Might be useful if your goal is to piss someone off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aFfsEpcVwQ

950,000 volts. He didn't lose any control of function, looks like it again, hurt a little.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IcG5XvAXP4

Up close of a taser 950,000 volt stun gun. It didn't even shake his arm. Seriously, 110 volts from your house outlet is better at stopping someone than these things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk7rJ_dU6EI

Anyways, the intention and the "stun" part of a stun gun comes from muscle exhaustion. The idea is, to pump enough electricity through the person's muscle tissue to render them incapable of moving for a time period. A real one has the same effect as a weight lifting routine. Your muscles are too tired to move by the time you've finished. If it's not making a certain amount of "shaking" occur as the muscles contract rapidly, it's not doing anything to stun. That means it's just a pain stick. Amperage is more important than voltage.

[JulieK1980]

If you absolutely must carry a firearm I recommend a 45 or 38. They have the stopping power with a manageable kick. 9 MM's have zero stopping power, and bigger guns as was said, simply aren't accurate for more than the first shot if you want any speed.

Personally I'm not a fan of carrying guns for self defense, it automatically escalates the situation and makes the criminal robbing you more likely to pull out their own gun, (that they almost certainly have, even if they aren't wielding it.)

Running, and yelling at the top of your lungs is probably the single most effective self defense measure. (You just have to let go of your pride)

[Kaitlyn26]

If you absolutely must carry a firearm I recommend a 45 or 38. They have the stopping power with a manageable kick. 9 MM's have zero stopping power, and bigger guns as was said, simply aren't accurate for more than the first shot if you want any speed.

Personally I'm not a fan of carrying guns for self defense, it automatically escalates the situation and makes the criminal robbing you more likely to pull out their own gun, (that they almost certainly have, even if they aren't wielding it.)

Running, and yelling at the top of your lungs is probably the single most effective self defense measure. (You just have to let go of your pride)

That's pretty much what a police officer told my mother and myself as far as firearm choices and tactics. My mom has a .38, but I refuse to carry any firearm because as you said, it can escalate things. Good advice. :thumbsup:

[jaleecd]

357's, and 38's are the same diameter and weight bullets coming out of different length cases. They weight around 168 grains each. 9mm. are the same diameter, but usually are about 125 grains. The difference in proformance is in the powder charge pushing them down range.. .38's shoot very well out of .357 revolvers,with a lot less noise and drama.
The bulldog .410shot shell/45 long colt is small nasty suprise, easily carried in even a small purse. It is only 5 shots, but being buck or bird shot close is very effective.
In the area of the country I live in home intruders are fair game.....:devil:

[ashleymasters]

I am a huge fan of carrying a gun. Of course you should follow local laws and have the proper licensing. I have a conceal and carry permit and own and often carry my smith & wesson sigma 9mm. and i even have a very sexy garter holster. it's a little bulky to wear very often but it's so hot and it's fun.

[Traci Elizabeth]

I teach and train women to defend themselves with handguns especially women who have already been a victim of a crime. Most of the ideas above I would never entrust my life or the life of a loved one on. Most of these suggestions will only succeed in causing greater harm to you or death.

A killer and/or someone interested in raping you is not to be taken lightly or to put yourself in a naive state of mind thinking that you will be safe because you have keys, pepper spray, a roll of quarters, stun gun, knife, cell phone, etc. They could care less what you try to do to defend yourself and in many cases your actions only adds more to their determination and excitement to succeed in their intent to cause you harm or death.

If you are not able to instantly run away in a 45 degree direction, then you MUST meet deadly force with deadly force and be aggressive in your response. Your life depends on it. The best solution is to become an expert with a handgun in a combative situation NOT a "bulls eye" marksman shooting at stationary targets. And if you are in a situation where you are unable to respond with your handgun (i.e. you were overpowered before you could reach for it), then you must also be prepared to use one of a handful of easily applied marshal arts techniques that will instantly stop your aggressor or cause immediate death to the aggressor.

Following their instructions only makes you a victim and more times than not a deceased one.

[Kaitlyn26]

A police officer is killed in the line of duty every 57 hours. They're trained with firearms, and wear bullet proof vests, have the best equipment money can buy, and can call a whole herd of friends. Do you really want to try your luck, with only your little gun, and bring another deadly weapon into a situation?

[Traci Elizabeth]

A police officer is killed in the line of duty every 57 hours. They're trained with firearms, and wear bullet proof vests, have the best equipment money can buy, and can call a whole herd of friends. Do you really want to try your luck, with only your little gun, and bring another deadly weapon into a situation?


You are down too-ten fig-newton! Yes, many people are killed by criminals including police.

So do you want us to act like the Jews in the concentration camps during WWII where they did not resist and as a result millions died, or would you try to save your life by fighting back?

I know what I would do and what I teach my family and female students to do!!!!!

[larry]

A lot of real smart ideas in here. And some Not so smart. hehe
1 Neither a baton nor a handgun should ever be used for intimidation. They should only be used as a complete surprise to the assailant
after the decision has been made to hurt or incapacitate them. The baton can be used fast and can cripple,disarm or incapacitate a
person.
2 My handgun 38special/357 is equipped with a laser sight set up for 5-15 feet. There will be no warning. The last thing they see will be
that little red dot. Semper Fi

[Kaitlyn26]

You are down too-ten fig-newton! Yes, many people are killed by criminals including police.

So do you want us to act like the Jews in the concentration camps during WWII where they did not resist and as a result millions died, or would you try to save your life by fighting back?

I know what I would do and what I teach my family and female students to do!!!!!

In the case of a weapon that can take a life in a fraction of a second, there's not much of a way to fight back unless you are sneaky. As I said, in this state, any wound from the back will get you put to death. In my state, I'd rather not even have a gun at all. Better off to avoid the situation altogether or prevent yourself from being an easy, single target, by always staying in groups. In a one on one confrontation where each person has a gun, the person that pulls it first will almost always win, that's going to be the attacker most of the time. :)

There's a reason police officers are so anxious to pull out their gun and train it on someone. Most cops that do get shot, get shot as they're reaching for their guns. Some of them take it a little overboard, but there is a logic behind it.

That being said, I'd make sure that I never represented an easy enough target for someone to try and take my life. Avoiding a confrontation is always better than having to deal with one. If it ever did arise for me, I'd run. Here's a video I found for you, showing how effective a gun can be in self defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sxwvkVzhyA

How useful was his gun to him?

[Aprilrain]

I carry a boyfriend and I KNOW how to use him!!! ; )

In all seriousness lets be real most honest people are NOT going to have the where with all to use most of the "weapons and methods" mentioned in this thread. Some of the smaller purse sized self defense items would be harmless to carry and MIGHT help so sure but in reality your attacker is going to have the element of surprise the willingness to do harm and likely have a physical advantage. The best defense is to use your head not your balls!!!! (assuming you even still have them) and avoid putting yourself in these situations in the first place. If you think you're going to be in an area with people of questionable moral character or worse groups of DRUNK young men! travel in a group, the bigger the better! The National Park Service suggest traveling in groups of three or more in grizzly country because there has never been a bear attack on this size group. The person who is desperate, drunk, high, insane enough to attack another person for whatever reason is going to look for an easy target much like the bear.

[Sally24]

It's too bad that gun enthusiasts can't follow simple instructions to stay on topic. Don't know why the mods just didn't delete their posts. And I'm a pistol owner.

I think there are many good options here, including the obvious run like hell option. We all should be aware of the dangers to us and genetic women.

[Babette]

Over the years, I have seen quite a few posts covering this subject with a lot of "advice" thrown around. Many people get themselves into deeper trouble by following guidance provided by misinformed others. We all come from different communities, states, provinces, and countries and each geographic region has their own laws regarding personal defense. Therefore, my advice I will throw out is for everyone to seek basic self defense training from a qualified professional and get the facts.

Situational awareness should be the cornerstone of good training. Knowing how to prevent a physical attack is indispensable. Carrying a personal defense weapon is a matter of individual choice. A weapon doesn't have to be a firearm, knife or stun gun. In most areas, any object used or a even a physical blow delivered with your fist or foot could make you make you a victim of the assailant and the legal system. You had better know facts regarding your rights and responsibilities before ever using one. Lastly, there may come a time when a physical assault cannot be avoided. Knowing what to do next may save your own life or someone else's. Trust me on this last point because it saved my own several times.

Babette

[Stephenie S]

Situational awareness is UNDOUBTEDLY the best defense.

PLEASE, please, please, don't go out alone at night. Please don't travel in areas that are at all scary. Stay out of stairwells. If you are alone in a elevator and someone you don't like gets in, get OUT. Ask security for an escort to your car. Pay attention. Always.

If you are at all careful about your surroundings, the need or desire to KILL another human being most likely will never come up.

I was trained by my mother to be careful. If you depend your common sense to protect you instead of your testosterone the need or desire to KILL another human being may never come up and you will live a more peaceful life.

S

[Duana]

What an interesting thread with lots of good and bad advice. As has been pointed out, the best defense is your brain and a keen situational awareness. After that, don't be places you shouldn't be. Third, avoid a confrontation at all costs. It isn't worth it whether you kill or get killed.

I carry pepper spray and a .380 auto. It all fits easily in my purse. I also have a .357 with jacketed hollow points in the car.

If engaged, my first line of defense, beyond talking my way out of it is the pepper spray. It is in my hand whenever I'm walking the street or parking lot. It works well. Some stats show it works better than a pistol.

I let them know that after I spray them, I'm going to stomp a mudhole in their ass when they are defenseless.

Look, you don't want to shoot someone. This is coming from someone who has, though I didn't kill him. Its no damn fun no matter what they did to you. If you insist on carrying a gun, read a book called "in the gravest extreme." It may bring you to your senses.

My guns are absolute last resorts. Pepper spray is more fun and harmless in the long term.

PS: for the ones saying a 9mm has no stopping power, tell that to the 6 dead and 19 injured on the NY subway 15 years or so ago. It was a ruger P-89 9mm and was very effective.

[Kaitlyn26]

Actually, it's been said a few times, try to avoid the gun subject. Not a whole lot of new information coming up anymore, just the same stuff. It's a dead topic unless someone has anything new to add.

[JulieK1980]

PS: for the ones saying a 9mm has no stopping power, tell that to the 6 dead and 19 injured on the NY subway 15 years or so ago. It was a ruger P-89 9mm and was very effective.

My experiences with my sidearm in Iraq is what tells me it has the lack of stopping power. But to be fair, you are correct, bullet choice plays a bigger role than the weapon itself. That's all I have to add. ;)

[Sharon]

Actually, it's been said a few times, try to avoid the gun subject. Not a whole lot of new information coming up anymore, just the same stuff. It's a dead topic unless someone has anything new to add.

I agree and it's now a dead thread.