Are All Crossdressers Transgendered

[SweetIonis]

I was just having are rather long conversation with someone I know who is very active in the LGBT rights movement. According to this person, crossdressers, regardless of their gender identity, fall under the Transgender portion of the LGBT community because they are engaged in defying gender stereotypes with regards to dressing.

Is this true? Do you agree with this assessment?

[Starr]

i have to agree from my own point of view... but i have also read on here where several other CDer's refer to transgender being an umbrella term covering all CD, TV, and TS

[vetobob9]

Crossdressing is a form of transgenderism. It is probably the lightest version of transgenderism there is.
That is how it seems to be looked at from anthropological perspective. There are degrees of transgenderism you could say.
First Degree: Crossdressing
Second Degree: goes beyond crossdressing to questioning one's identity and possibly orientation. They undergo counseling and in some cases may seek hormonal treatments.
Third Degree: goes beyond the first and second and actively seeks SRS.

[sissystephanie]

Starr is correct. Transgender is really an umbrella term coined by the media, and covers virtually everybody who does anything that crosses gender boundaries. So under that definition crossdressers do fall under the Transgender envelope! I am definitely a male, but I do wear feminine clothes much of the time as a Crossdresser!! So I am a Transgender!! I will add that I hate labels, and just prefer to be ME!!

[cassandra54]

i have read similar things and would have to agree in a general sense. there is growing consent among professionals and lay people that people who cross dress are transgender. although as you'll find on this site that people who cross dress do it in many different ways. some like myself go all out and want to spend part of their life living as a woman. some just wear lingerie around the house and never go out of the house. Some are gay, some are bisexual, some live alone and some live with a SO. Some people are lucky to have an SO that knows about our feminine ways and some do it behind their backs. I don't know what the percentages are, but do some research and take this thing called the COAGTI test. I consider myself a no-op transgender, since I live part-time as a woman and will be going out in public as Cassandra. However I think the term needs to be qualified as to the degree at which one is involved, for example, one might be TG curious. Just remember just as with ones sexuality, sensuality, eroticism, and sexual persuasion, everyone has different boundaries and perceptions of what they are or are not. Labels are a good starting point for describing yourself. For example if you were talking about your car, you would state the year, make and model. There may be modifications to car which might make it one of a kind but still it is essentially that particular year, make and model. Don't know if this helps or not.

[NathalieX66]

I see myself falling under the umbrella of the term transgendered.

I was out fully en femme at a shopping mall today, not to mention a couple of stand alone shoes stores. Yeah, besides being s a crossdresser, what am I?

I also know that there are folks who are transsexual, and those who see themselves as transsexual, and they don't like the fact that crossdressers identify as transgender. My response is this: you have your own label.......it's transsexual. Maybe you don't like how the word sounds but it is what it is. That's what you are. There is no exclusive ownership of the word transgender from any one group, we are all gender variants to some degree or another.

[Sophie_C]

The 'T' originally stood for simply Trans', NOT 'Transgender'. That's how it encompassed both Trans-vestites and Trans-gendered people. The wiki says it means transgendered, but I don't think that's accurate. Anyway, I think labels make people get confused and box themselves in corners they aren't really comfortable in, so there's no need to focus on it, at all.

I just want to be sure the LGBT community does not conveniently forget the trans side of things, as has OFTEN happened (especially in civil rights), since the entire start of the movement was done, in a large part by trans girls at Stonewall. If I'm not mistaken, half of the people there were transvestites or transgendered. Somehow, a whole bunch of laws seem to drop it to be only LGB. But, that's enough of going on a tangent...;)

[SweetIonis]

If ALL crossdressers are transgendered, that would imply that a person's dress determines their gender identity.

[Sophie_C]

If ALL crossdressers are transgendered, that would imply that a persons dress determines their gender identity.

That's a good part of the reason I am not a fan of using the word 'transsexual'. It confuses people to thing that it's sexuality, not gender identity (between your legs vs between your ears). It should be transgender or crossdresser, that way people can more immediately get "oh, it's gender identity" or "oh, it's a sexual inclination, like a fetish."

[Marissa]

Are all crossdressers transgendered? Yes, as defined by the umbrella effect :) But I agree with the other girls above on statements of labels..our individuality :)

If dressig as a woman (women's attire as defined by society..lol..) for a few hours either to stay home or go out..to fullfill a fetish or a pleasurable desire..or whatever reason a person chooses.. without even at times wondering what label they fit under.. its just fun :)

Thank you girls for the great explainations..

Hugs,
Marissa

[SweetIonis]

That's a good part of the reason I am not a fan of using the word 'transsexual'. It confuses people to thing that it's sexuality, not gender identity (between your legs vs between your ears). It should be transgender or crossdresser, that way people can more immediately get "oh, it's gender identity" or "oh, it's a sexual inclination, like a fetish."

EXACTLY!! I argued with that person quite a while on this point.

[Vickie_CDTV]

Usually, "transgendered" is meant to encompass both TV and TS, but mostly it seems to depend on the context and the target audience. Sometimes it is used as a "polite" or "PC" term for TS.

As an example, today I was in a local coffee shop and saw a flyer for something called "GLBT - Out for Health". While "transgender" and only "transgender" was used in the flyer, it was probably not strictly referring to all "transgender", and that it was not intended to include an occasional heterosexual TV in its scope (I was bored and looked at their site, and it only had information on gay and bi dressers, covered by the "GB" already, and TS issues.) That is all fine of course, it is just an example of how "transgender" is sometimes used.

[Wendy_Marie]

in the broadest sense and using the loosest definition of the terms transgender I suppose I can see the reasoning behind such a statement.

My definitions differ in that a CD doesn't identify themselves as a Female perse' but as a male who enjoys wearing female clothing...where a Transgender is the tired old classic "Woman trapped in a males body."

[Rianna Humble]

in the broadest sense and using the loosest definition of the terms transgender I suppose I can see the reasoning behind such a statement.

My definitions differ in that a CD doesn't identify themselves as a Female perse' but as a male who enjoys wearing female clothing...where a Transgender is the tired old classic "Woman trapped in a males body."

It can help to look at what the words mean

There are two parts to TG - Trans (crossing) and Gender (self explanatory)
There are also two parts to TS - Trans (crossing) Sexual (referring in this case to the physical sexual characteristics)
There are also two parts to cross-dressing - Cross (as in Trans) and dressing (as in what you do).

Cross-Dressing also crosses the norms of Gender behaviour and is therefore rightly classed as a transgender actitivty. I am fully aware that people have different reasons for cross-dressing, but whatever their reason they are still crossing the accepted norms of gender behaviour.

Transsexuals (like myself) have a gender that does not conform to our physical sexual characteristics, so we are also transgender

However, it is wrong to confine the term Transgender to only those of us who are transsexuals because the word describes both behaviour and identity

This kind of restriction comes close to the example that we learn when first taught about syllogism: "All dogs are animals, cats are animals therefore cats must be dogs". Yes it is true that transsexuals are transgender, that does not mean that all transgender folk are transsexual.

[Tina B.]

Trapped in a womens body, is a transsexual, not a transgendered person. Trans means to cross, as in trans Atlantic flights, and things like that. Gender, I think we all know what that means. Put them together and you have crossing genders. all the rest of the meaning, people have added on, it's just politics. If you cross that line, even now and then, you are transgendered, and I don't see what the problem with the word is, it's not a gun, and it won't hurt you, but if you walk in heels, you belong on this side of that line. Inside of that line, you have the whole bunch of us, cross dressers, Transvestites, transsexuals, fetish dressers, girly boys, Sissy's, and anyone I might have missed, that play across the gender lines. It's time to stop fearing a word that is just a general description of people with a gender kink of some kind. It's only a bad thing, if you think it is.
Tina B.

Rianna, you must have been posting at the same time I was, but you got done first, because you said it with less words! lol

[Wendy_Marie]

It can help to look at what the words mean

There are two parts to TG - Trans (crossing) and Gender (self explanatory)
There are also two parts to TS - Trans (crossing) Sexual (referring in this case to the physical sexual characteristics)
There are also two parts to cross-dressing - Cross (as in Trans) and dressing (as in what you do).

Cross-Dressing also crosses the norms of Gender behaviour and is therefore rightly classed as a transgender actitivty. I am fully aware that people have different reasons for cross-dressing, but whatever their reason they are still crossing the accepted norms of gender behaviour.

Transsexuals (like myself) have a gender that does not conform to our physical sexual characteristics, so we are also transgender

However, it is wrong to confine the term Transgender to only those of us who are transsexuals because the word describes both behaviour and identity

This kind of restriction comes close to the example that we learn when first taught about syllogism: "All dogs are animals, cats are animals therefore cats must be dogs". Yes it is true that transsexuals are transgender, that does not mean that all transgender folk are transsexual.

There have been so many threads dealing with the terminology and none of them ever seem to accomplish much of anything....Let's just say that this is an argument of semantics and while we seem to actually agree on the issue, our interpretations differ somewhat.

I think the originator of the abbreviation LGBT just felt it wasn't conducive to brevity to include a letter for every sexual variant...othwerwise the abbreviation in and of itself would read like a phone book.

People dislike vaugeness and attempt to pigeonhole everyone into a nice neat category...so basically anyone who doesn't conform to what has been determined as normal dress for your physical appearance and birth gender by society....are simply labeled as trans...

[SweetIonis]

Here's a something from Wikipedia regarding gender:

"Gender is a range of characteristics distinguishing between male and female, particularly in the cases of men and women and the masculine and feminine attributes assigned to them. Depending on the context, the discriminating characteristics vary from sex to social role to gender identity."

How we label things is a large factor in how those things are conceptualized in the mind, particularly in persons who do not take the time to examine the subject matter closely. I have noticed that biological males that crossdress who consider their gender identity to be male, despise being thought of as a guy who thinks he is a female.

Because the word "gender" is used in the context of making a differentiation between male and female, to apply the term "transgender" to a biological male that crossdresses, but considers his gender identity to be male, mistakenly implies that the person is a male who is female.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

over the years my own thinking on this has evolved.. transgender can be viewed as a behaviour or an identity as rianna points out..

so when a crossdresser says i am transgender, its a behaviour, and as a transsexual it is most certainly an identity... so ts people sometimes get upset when crossdressers say they are transgendered...and cd's get feelings hurt when ts people say they are not tg...

add to this mix that most of us feel a sexual component in dressing, that a number of crossdressers are trannsexuals that are either in a denial/confused/shamed/scared frame of mind, that many crossdressers construct complete female identities as a behaviour,
its a nice recipe for threads...

marv albert is caught in fishnets and female dom gear.... clearly that's sex, clearly thats crossdressing, is he transgendered? probably not, ..he's engaging in transgender behavior...and as a transsexual i have a vested interest in people understanding that what he was doing is nothing like what I AM... that doesn't mean i've never had fishnets on...it means that whether i wear fishnets and stilettos in my sex life is nobodies business....

i imagine most people don't care as much as many of us do what these words mean as we all do, so we are all faced with situations where we see the words used in a way we may not like or agree with...

[Pythos]

Here is a more important question...

Is there anything wrong with this term being used.

I personally cannot see a problem. It is a litteral term for crossing gender norms....woman did it years and years ago, in both style and life...it is about time men did as well.

[Babeba]

That's a good part of the reason I am not a fan of using the word 'transsexual'. It confuses people to thing that it's sexuality, not gender identity (between your legs vs between your ears). It should be transgender or crossdresser, that way people can more immediately get "oh, it's gender identity" or "oh, it's a sexual inclination, like a fetish."


I think that you may have the definition of transsexual not quite right. It does not refer to sexuality or sexual inclination, it refers to how the biological sex of a person does not match the gender of the person. I think of it as being a physical birth defect.

Someone who dresses for sexual inclination or just because it 'feels good' - that to me is a fetishistic crossdresser or a fetishistic transvestite. Sometimes that person is a guy in a dress.

Other people who fit into the transgender umbrella (and cross traditional gender expression lines) are people who are dual gender, bigender, genderfluid and genderqueer. Some people have very high levels of both male and female gender. Some people have very low levels. Some people have one gender that exerts itself more at different times. I wouldn't say that it is a spectrum - one is not just a continuation of another, although sometimes when a person has a hard time coming to terms with who they truly are it is easier to just put on the clothes and not examine things more deeply.


This might be a bit weird of me to think and to say, but - if we were to widen out transgender - crossing gender norms - to people who have crossed out and rewritten their perceptions of gender to make them best accept what and who other people are? Then I hope someday we are ALL trans.

[Inna]

There is always a bit of a gray area in any defining terminology. Take for instance simply face value of CROSSDRESSER label.

If a guy makes a joke and dresses as a prostitute on Halloween night just for a prank and wears such clothing without the slightest internal desire, then is he a crossdresser by definition or is he just wearing a costume which at this point happens to be feminine.

I think that the term crossdresser is really a new wrapping on the old term transvestite which means gender-dysmorphic and wearing clothing as an expression of internal desire.

So if crossdresser means self expression then yes it also means transgender!

[SweetIonis]

over the years my own thinking on this has evolved.. transgender can be viewed as a behaviour or an identity as rianna points out..

so when a crossdresser says i am transgender, its a behaviour, and as a transsexual it is most certainly an identity... so ts people sometimes get upset when crossdressers say they are transgendered...and cd's get feelings hurt when ts people say they are not tg...

marv albert is caught in fishnets and female dom gear.... clearly that's sex, clearly thats crossdressing, is he transgendered? probably not, ..he's engaging in transgender behavior...and as a transsexual i have a vested interest in people understanding that what he was doing is nothing like what I AM

i imagine most people don't care as much as many of us do what these words mean as we all do, so we are all faced with situations where we see the words used in a way we may not like or agree with...

Some nice points Kaitlyn. Here I think you have hit on the essence of the problem as I see it. I have seen MANY threads here that center on the notion that CDs who feel that there gender identity is male, despise it when they are lumped in with CDs who project a feminine sexual personna. And of course you have brought forward other situations where persons feel they are being mistakenly labeled. I suppose my point is that by choosing the nomenclature Transgender to apply to such a broad group, those involved in the LGBT rights movement are contributing to persons becoming misidentified with activity that they do not want to be associated with.


I think that you may have the definition of transsexual not quite right. It does not refer to sexuality or sexual inclination, it refers to how the biological sex of a person does not match the gender of the person..

I think you misinterpreted what was said. Here's the exact quote:

"It confuses people to thing that it's sexuality, not gender identity (between your legs vs between your ears)."

Sophie_C said that it CONFUSES people to think that it's sexuality, not that it is sexuality.

[Miss Maxine]

Are all Christians Catholic?

[SweetIonis]

According to the Catholics! LMAO!!!

[Miss Maxine]

According to the Catholics! LMAO!!!

Hahahaha! High five!

[cassandra54]

let's see all of us posting on here are on a website called Cross Dressers.com, so a lot of us believe that that we are cross dressers. We can call ourselves whatever we want and attach our own labels as we wish. But keep in mind, almost everyone here has a feminine name so what does that mean? I have always considered myself an individualist, a non-conformist and one who is not pinned down by labels. however, recently i've applied labels to myself, and am quite happy for it. not because i want to be put into a category, lifestyle or demographic, but because it's a good start to describe who i am. one thing that i have discovered is that we all have a very unique combination of labels too.
here are my labels

Republican: At least for the time being. Don't get me started
WASP: White Anglo Saxon Protestant.
Left-Handed
Gemini
Androgyne
Bisexual-Live with an SO in an open relationship
Transgender-I'm here on this website under the name of Cassandra, live pat time as a woman, have an e-mail address and flicker account under her name and started going out in public to experience life as a woman.
Left-Brained
Right Brained (i am both in almost equal proportions)
Christian- who believes in reincarnation and UFOs
Electrician

I have remarked in the past that I am so eclectic I have my own demographic.

[Miss Maxine]

one thing that i have discovered is that we all have a very unique combination of labels too.
here are my labels


The label on my bra reads: Goddess. ^_^

[kristinacd55]

I feel that the moment I went out in public enfemme to support group meetings and events is when I went from crossdressing to tg. It's more of a real time experience now than a strictly online one.

[Sherina]

If you look the term up on Websters dictionary you'll find references to both Cross Dressing and Trans- whatever.
Me? I feel that labels belong on cans, bottles, and clothes. Not people. Labeling leads to people claiming ownership and I am nobodies property, although I am married. But that is a relationship not ownership.
I think my SO has the right idea on an issue she has when filling out the census form. Under the label of race she chooses the box "Other" and then puts down the word "Human". But then she does that on any form that has that spot of labeling.

[Babeba]

Some nice points Kaitlyn. Here I think you have hit on the essence of the problem as I see it. I have seen MANY threads here that center on the notion that CDs who feel that there gender identity is male, despise it when they are lumped in with CDs who project a feminine sexual personna. And of course you have brought forward other situations where persons feel they are being mistakenly labeled. I suppose my point is that by choosing the nomenclature Transgender to apply to such a broad group, those involved in the LGBT rights movement are contributing to persons becoming misidentified with activity that they do not want to be associated with.



I think you misinterpreted what was said. Here's the exact quote:

"It confuses people to thing that it's sexuality, not gender identity (between your legs vs between your ears)."

Sophie_C said that it CONFUSES people to think that it's sexuality, not that it is sexuality.

I think that between grammatical errors and preconceived notions, I now haven't the foggiest about what either of you two means, sorry!

However - I don't think it's right to change terminology because of what the layperson with no education about trans issues may think at first. If we all take one meaning, and stick to it - that's the best and most clear fashion of dealing with this issue. Transgender and Transsexual have very clear meanings, taken from their Latin roots. If you do any sort of gender bending at all as part of your self identity - well, you're transgender. If you feel like your sex - your biological sex - is wrong, that is being transsexual.

Sex=/=sexuality=/=gender.


The label on my bra reads: Goddess. ^_^

Miss Maxine, that marketer really had your number eh?! :-)

[Joanne f]

Most will say that cross dressing comes under the transgender heading but i personally do not think that all who cross dress are transgendered , the clothing they wear may be normal for the opposite gender but that does not necessarily mean that the person wearing them wants to or feels like crossing any gender norms as in those circumstances it would be the other people who are seeing them who may consider that person is crossing genders so they are using the term for their convenience and not the person who is dressing in a way they like to , but (always that but):heehee: i would agree that there is no doubt a bigger majority of CDs who do associate with a crossing or mixing of genders than with those that do not .

[LilSissyStevie]

The notion of "transgender" was created to group as many gender variant folks as possible under one title for political lobbying purposes. It is a political category not a scientific one. I have read many posts here where some CDs reject the term for themselves and many TS also reject the term. For instance:

http://ts-si.org/guest-columns/30891-but-what-harm-is-there-in-a-transgender-umbrella

Personally I like to think of myself as pan-gendered or gender-queer rather than trans-anything but transgendered doesn't really bother me since it's half true.

[misskristykitty]

No I do not believe for one second that all CD's are transgendered. My CD boyfriend is not transgendered he just curious about women's clothing and really likes the way panties feel.Does he dress everyday?? No he doesn't maybe once or twice a week.

[sterling12]

OK, let us consider The Situation from A TYPICAL Newbie Posting:

"Hello all! My name is ________, and I want to introduce myself. I have ALWAYS had these FEMME FANTASIES, since I was a child. My wife doesn't understand me, and it's driving me crazy, cause' I want to spend more time as _______. I am HETEROSEXUAL, I want that understood. I have NEVER been Gay, NEVER thought about being Gay, would never, ever, become Gay! UNLESS, I'm all dressed up and I'm being _____. Then when some HANDSOME GUY hits on me, all I want to do is Naughty Things with him, and we end up at A Motel!

So, as I always tell my wife, "these Other Feelings are not a problem!" I am ONLY A Heterosexual Crossdresser, and I only wear female clothes to relieve my tension! And of course, these feelings will never change. But my question is: "What should I do?" "Should I buy my hormones on The Street, or start therapy, so that I can be legitimate."

Yeah, sure we're not transgendered!

Peace and Love, Joanie

[ReineD]

If ALL crossdressers are transgendered, that would imply that a person's dress determines their gender identity.

It does, if the person dresses specifically to portray a different gender than assigned at birth and does not do it on a lark. We all choose to present ourselves in a manner that reflects who we feel we are.

Even if a CDer dresses purely for fetish or sexual reasons in private, the expression of his sexuality is deeply ingrained with who he feels he is as well, even if it is still at a deep subconscious level. IMO. Now if the fetish is interchangeable with other fetishes, such as latex or any number of other non-gendered fetishes, or even items of clothing be they shoes or gas masks, then I agree such a person does not cross the gender lines. But, a fetish CD who gets off on the "idea" of being a female (autogynephilia) most definitely crosses the gender barriers. IMO.


That's a good part of the reason I am not a fan of using the word 'transsexual'. It confuses people to thing that it's sexuality, not gender identity (between your legs vs between your ears). It should be transgender or crossdresser, that way people can more immediately get "oh, it's gender identity" or "oh, it's a sexual inclination, like a fetish."

No. As a few others have pointed out before me, physical gender has been defined through primary sexual characteristics, i.e, having a penis or a vagina. It has nothing to do with "sexuality", or a person's sexual orientation. A TS wants to change her primary sexual characteristics to match who she feels she is internally. "Transsexual" is a perfectly good description for this.

I agree that modern forms need to change their question from 'what sex are you', to 'what gender are you', when they ask whether someone is "M" or "F", and also they need to include another box "B", for a combination of both. Or, "B" could stand for bigender. But, I think it will take time for society in general to come to accept the concept since it goes against everything we know about evolution (in a general sense) and also since most people do identify as the gender that matches their primary sexual characteristics, independent of their sexual preferences.



so when a crossdresser says i am transgender, its a behaviour, and as a transsexual it is most certainly an identity... so ts people sometimes get upset when crossdressers say they are transgendered...and cd's get feelings hurt when ts people say they are not tg...

Many TSs have told me they don't understand CDers and I can certainly understand why this is. Both TSs and cisgenders fit within the binary view of gender: either/or, male/female. A MtF TS is solidly on the "F" end of the spectrum (as is the FtM TS who is solidly on the "M" side). But, there are in fact many gray shades and gender mixes in between. It's just not accurate to say that all CDs are male identified who dress for fetish or feel-good reasons. I believe there are more than just the two, M/F genders. I do see bigenders and dualgenders as being a gender, an identity, all their own that is a mix of the two, and this alone signifies they do cross the standard M/F gender identities.

[SweetIonis]

I think that between grammatical errors and preconceived notions, I now haven't the foggiest about what either of you two means, sorry!


Babeba, was has been said is not hard to understand. Let me attempt to state it simply and concisely. I am saying that using the term transgender to describe ALL persons who crossdress is misleading because it implies that all persons who crossdress consider themselves to be a different gender than that implied by their natal sex. And as there are some crossdressers who profess that this is not the case, then such nomenclature is misleading.

What Sophia has pointed out is that the use of transsexual to describe a person whose gender identification is different from their natal sex is also misleading because the use of the suffix "sexual" in "transsexual" has the effect of focusing attention on the person's sexuality as opposed to the real issue at hand which is gender identity.


I have read many posts here where some CDs reject the term for themselves and many TS also reject the term. For instance:

http://ts-si.org/guest-columns/30891-but-what-harm-is-there-in-a-transgender-umbrella


Interesting article Stevie.



So, as I always tell my wife, "these Other Feelings are not a problem!" I am ONLY A Heterosexual Crossdresser, and I only wear female clothes to relieve my tension! And of course, these feelings will never change. But my question is: "What should I do?" "Should I buy my hormones on The Street, or start therapy, so that I can be legitimate."

Yeah, sure we're not transgendered!


ROFLMAO!!!! Great post!!!


It does, if the person dresses specifically to portray a different gender than assigned at birth and does not do it on a lark. We all choose to present ourselves in a manner that reflects who we feel we are.

The issue at hand here is what is motivating the person to portray that different gender. Does a natal male who crossdresses just because he likes the clothes consider his gender identity to be that of a female? If we take what some say at face value, this is not the case. In that case there is no change of gender identity and the use of transgender can be misleading.



Even if a CDer dresses purely for fetish or sexual reasons in private, the expression of his sexuality is deeply ingrained with who he feels he is as well, even if it is still at a deep subconscious level. IMO.

Absolutely. No problem there.


Now if the fetish is interchangeable with other fetishes, such as latex or any number of other non-gendered fetishes, or even items of clothing be they shoes or gas masks, then I agree such a person does not cross the gender lines.

GAS MASKS???? DAMN!!! I thought I was freaky!!! :D:D:D


No. As a few others have pointed out before me, physical gender has been defined through primary sexual characteristics, i.e, having a penis or a vagina. It has nothing to do with "sexuality", or a person's sexual orientation. A TS wants to change her primary sexual characteristics to match who she feels she is internally. "Transsexual" is a perfectly good description for this.

Reine, not to offend you, but actually this person has made an astute point. The "sexual" in the nomenclature "transsexual" has the effect of leading someone to believe that what is being crossed, i.e. what the "trans" refers to, is sexuality, and that is precisely what you are objecting to.

Over and above that even the use of the term transgender is not above criticism. Someone earlier provided a very good article that demonstrates why this nomenclature can also fall short. Here's the relevant quote:

"First, and most basic, is an underlining assumption that one can not actually “change their sex”, that you remain forever the sex you were assigned at birth regardless of whatever somatic corrections you make. I know, I know, this is not what they say, well sometimes the transgenders actually do come right out and say it, but it is the inescapable essence of their position. If post-corrected women are defined as “transgendered” that is a basic and essential denial that they can correct what is actually now known as a medical condition and proceed with their lives on more or less a level playing field with other women. That they forever remain a third sex."

[ReineD]

The issue at hand here is what is motivating the person to portray that different gender. Does a natal male who crossdresses just because he likes the clothes consider his gender identity to be that of a female? If we take what some say at face value this is not the case. In that case there is no change of gender identity and the use of transgender can be misleading.

If it truly is "just" about the clothes, I doubt there will be forms, wigs, makeup, eyebrow thinning, body shaving, tucking, etc. We obviously can't paint members here with a broad brush, and there are men in this forum for whom it IS strictly about the clothes. I suppose whether it is a fetish or not is debatable (there are other definitions for fetish than sexual). But, based on the majority threads I've read here and the majority pics in the Gallery, I'd say for most people it is a lot more than just about the clothes, even for those who protest being thought of as a woman. Who knows? Perhaps such members can only acknowledge a binary gender and it is difficult for them to imagine anything in between?



Reine, not to offend you, but actually this person has made an astute point. The "sexual" in the nomenclature "transsexual" has the effect of leading someone to believe that what is being crossed, i.e. what the "trans" refers to, is sexuality, and that is precisely what you are objecting to.

I'm not offended. :hugs:

But if the general public is interested in delving into precise definitions of TGs and all the groups that fall within the umbrella, the onus is upon them to learn the difference between primary and secondary sexual characteristics, and sexual orientation, and the words that are commonly used to define such things.

Transsexual is quite separate from heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual, gynephilic, or androphilic.

[SweetIonis]

Well Reine, on the "just the clothes" thing, I'm going to take it at face value. I have more to say about this however, but will do so in a PM.

On the "onus" thing, I think that people who conceive of the nomenclature that they want to be associated with their particular group should be very careful when they choose. Otherwise, an inappropriate choice can certainly cause misunderstandings and can create unnecessary difficulty for the persons who are being misidentified. I also believe some of the onus should be on the group that is put into inconvenience, to be vocal about the fact that they are being mislabeled.

[CynthiaD]

If ALL crossdressers are transgendered, that would imply that a person's dress determines their gender identity.

No, it means that a person's choice of dress determines gender identity. There was a story a number of years ago about a pair of male twins in Canada. One twin had his penis burned off by a machine that was supposed to circumcise him. At the recommendation of doctors, his parents decided to raise him as a girl. Despite being forced to wear female clothing all his life, he continued to self-identify as male. In his teens he gave up his female clothing and lived the rest of his life as a male. He even married a woman. Unfortunately he died by his own hand at much too young an age.

CK

To add my own two cents worth, I think that all crossdressers are transgendered in the sense that they view themselves as belonging to the opposite sex. Not all the time, and perhaps never 100%. There are people who claim otherwise, and say it's nothing more than a hobby. I don't believe them. I think that these people are lying because they want to keep that part of themselves private, perhaps even from themselves. I respect this desire, and politely pretend to believe those who tell me that crossdressing is their hobby. I don't see any reason why a person shouldn't be allowed some privacy. But I won't ever believe it.

[SweetIonis]

To add my own two cents worth, I think that all crossdressers are transgendered in the sense that they view themselves as belonging to the opposite sex. Not all the time, and perhaps never 100%. There are people who claim otherwise, and say it's nothing more than a hobby. I don't believe them. I think that these people are lying because they want to keep that part of themselves private, perhaps even from themselves. I respect this desire, and politely pretend to believe those who tell me that crossdressing is their hobby. I don't see any reason why a person shouldn't be allowed some privacy. But I won't ever believe it.

OK Cynthia. Let's suppose someone is inclined to believe you. Can you offer a rationale or proof to support your assertion?

[Annaliese2010]

No I dont think so. Many men crossdress yet remain self identified an Male. To them the Emphasis is on the Act of cross-dressing...a practice from which they derive pleasure for reasons individual, varied and often private or if unexamined, murky yet not because of some definitive feminine quality or aspect of their personality within. For others such as myself, the word 'crosdressing' is a misnomer. The choice of clothing, the mannerisms, voice, behavior and other outward forms of visible expression flow naturally from an inner quality of character, a personality extant rather than contrived which is definitively feminine. Thus the word 'crossdressing' rings hollow. When you Are female from 1st principle you simply do as you do i.e. the urge and desire to dress and behave feminine derives from the presence of a mind which both intellectually and emotionally resonates with what is culturally labeled 'feminine'.

I would submit that the former type of crossdresser is not transgendered while the latter certainly is. The term 'Transgendered', for obvious etymologic reasons should be reserved to those who are internally female, and not be based on outward behavior which is not necessarily 1st principle.

[Julogden]

I agree with that assessment, but there are quite a few CD's who, for some reason, bristle at the thought of being included under the transgendered umbrella. The transgender term, as currently defined, covers a lot of territory.


If ALL crossdressers are transgendered, that would imply that a person's dress determines their gender identity.

Not really. It implies that one is dressing in clothes typical of the gender presentation that is expected of the opposite genetic sex. It's actually a bad term, in my opinion, but we're talking about what its current meaning is.

Carol

[Rianna Humble]

I think that people who conceive of the nomenclature that they want to be associated with their particular group should be very careful when they choose.

Then the onus is on you to find a term that is more correct than transsexual and which also avoids any possible confusion as to what is being described, but before you do that, I would say that the onus is also on you to disprove the experience of those TS who have posted explaining why the current term is both correct and understood by people around them.

[PretzelGirl]

We will never agree on terms as the monthly threads show, I just find it quite ironic that when transgender comes up as a term, that so many say that those that feel female are transgender and those that feel male aren't. I am guessing that the majority here feel somewhere in-between. That is why it is usually referred to as a spectrum instead of the binary male-female.

[Sophie86]

It should be transgender or crossdresser, that way people can more immediately get "oh, it's gender identity" or "oh, it's a sexual inclination, like a fetish."

Everyone seems to assume that those two are mutually exclusive. Isn't it possible that gender identity issues gave rise to a sexual inclination? Or... maybe a sexual inclination gave rise to a gender identity issue?

[ReineD]

Can you all imagine a classroom in a primary school - say grade 5, where children are learning how to parse sentences in grammar class. Each child is an avid reader, but they cannot agree on grammar rules; one child calls the subject of a sentence an "adjective", while the other child calls it a "verb", and no one believes the teacher who correctly identifies it as a "noun".

:straightface:

I think it may be time for people to start reading [-]the latest in[/-] transgender studies for correct terminology, rather than perhaps blogs or personal web pages, or maybe even making up their own because they disagree with established terms.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

hmmmmm

Do the latest in transgender studies say anything different from the studies that are "next to latest" or the ones before that??

As frustrating as it is, its better to talk about it.. despite all the confusion, i bet there are lots of connection being made in people's minds...folks reading some post and realizing "hey that's just like me"...

[cassandra54]

your geek is coming out there sue, talking about binary, come to think about it why not octal or hex.. by the way if you can spell your name in hex, you might be a geek.

[ReineD]

I'm not suggesting people stop having discussions about how they feel, but rather stop arguing about the meaning of basic words such as transsexual and transgender. :p

[SweetIonis]

Not really. It implies that one is dressing in clothes typical of the gender presentation that is expected of the opposite genetic sex. It's actually a bad term, in my opinion, but we're talking about what its current meaning is.

My point is that the use of the term to label certain groups of people creates confusion.


I would say that the onus is also on you to disprove the experience of those TS who have posted explaining why the current term is both correct and understood by people around them.

Rianna, I am not trying to deingrate your experience. I am making a point concerning the usage of the term, and I have stated clearly why I feel that way.


Everyone seems to assume that those two are mutually exclusive. Isn't it possible that gender identity issues gave rise to a sexual inclination? Or... maybe a sexual inclination gave rise to a gender identity issue?

Love it!! As usual, you demonstrate an ability to penetrate the subject matter to it's essence and in this instance have provided food to satisfy the intellectually hungry. Great point!!!!


your geek is coming out there sue, talking about binary, come to think about it why not octal or hex.. by the way if you can spell your name in hex, you might be a geek.

I was geek enough to find a ASCII to HEX converter for the character array SweetIonis

53 77 65 65 74 49 6f 6e 69 73
-S--w--e--e--t--I--o--n--i--s

Is that geek enough for ya? :)


I'm not suggesting people stop having discussions about how they feel, but rather stop arguing about the meaning of basic words such as transsexual and transgender. :p

It's hard to discuss the issue of whether the terms create confusion without touching on the meaning of the terms.

[Sophie_C]

It does, if the person dresses specifically to portray a different gender than assigned at birth and does not do it on a lark. We all choose to present ourselves in a manner that reflects who we feel we are.

Even if a CDer dresses purely for fetish or sexual reasons in private, the expression of his sexuality is deeply ingrained with who he feels he is as well, even if it is still at a deep subconscious level. IMO. Now if the fetish is interchangeable with other fetishes, such as latex or any number of other non-gendered fetishes, or even items of clothing be they shoes or gas masks, then I agree such a person does not cross the gender lines. But, a fetish CD who gets off on the "idea" of being a female (autogynephilia) most definitely crosses the gender barriers. IMO.



No. As a few others have pointed out before me, physical gender has been defined through primary sexual characteristics, i.e, having a penis or a vagina. It has nothing to do with "sexuality", or a person's sexual orientation. A TS wants to change her primary sexual characteristics to match who she feels she is internally. "Transsexual" is a perfectly good description for this.

I agree that modern forms need to change their question from 'what sex are you', to 'what gender are you', when they ask whether someone is "M" or "F", and also they need to include another box "B", for a combination of both. Or, "B" could stand for bigender. But, I think it will take time for society in general to come to accept the concept since it goes against everything we know about evolution (in a general sense) and also since most people do identify as the gender that matches their primary sexual characteristics, independent of their sexual preferences.



Many TSs have told me they don't understand CDers and I can certainly understand why this is. Both TSs and cisgenders fit within the binary view of gender: either/or, male/female. A MtF TS is solidly on the "F" end of the spectrum (as is the FtM TS who is solidly on the "M" side). But, there are in fact many gray shades and gender mixes in between. It's just not accurate to say that all CDs are male identified who dress for fetish or feel-good reasons. I believe there are more than just the two, M/F genders. I do see bigenders and dualgenders as being a gender, an identity, all their own that is a mix of the two, and this alone signifies they do cross the standard M/F gender identities.

Reine, I think you may have breezed over what other people said (and I was implying):




I think you misinterpreted what was said. Here's the exact quote:

"It confuses people to think that it's sexuality, not gender identity (between your legs vs between your ears)."

Sophie_C said that it CONFUSES people to think that it's sexuality, not that it is sexuality.

I'm just pointing out an angle to better negate the misconceptions - I am not agreeing with them! If 'sex' can be avoided as part of the description, it helps. "Primary sexual characteristics" can be described as "genitalia" in the context of what you said, keeping the focus on on the heart of the matter, which is gender, which is what the body changes are addressing. I don't mean to go into deeper into this, since it's a sore spot, being transgendered and closeted myself, but you can't give the situation justice in a word or two, so I don't demand perfection. It's just something that could help.

[SweetIonis]

Friends, there is no need for anyone here to become disturbed over this discussion. No one is being denigrated here. It is merely a discussion on the perception, in the mind of a LAY person, that is created when the term transgender is invoked. As such it is not DISTINCTLY a transsexual issue, but it is one that concerns ALL persons who crossdress and also those who are involved in the LGBT movement. The intent here is to give an idea on where SOME of the misconceptions, that people have concerning people who crossdress, originate. No one likes to be perceived to be something that they are not, at least not when it carries a negative connotation. I know this because one of the reasons that I have such an independent streak is that I am a black person who comes from an area where discrimination and negative stereotypes were, and still are, especially rampant. If you are black, AUTOMATICALLY you are supposed to be dumb and AUTOMATICALLY unfit to engage in certain types of activity, ESPECIALLY those involving intellectual endeavor. As such, when some one tells me to shut up and simply believe what I am told, it invokes that type of mental imagery in my mind, and as a consequence, I fight back against that vigorously. Do you realize that for some people, black people are no better than animals? Imagine how you would feel if your whole life you were constantly struggling against such misconceptions and then to add insult to injury someone told you to shut up and believe what you are told.

Therefore I feel strongly about the use of terminology that can help foster misconceptions. For example let's suppose all of the people in the US who have androgynous features decided to get together and form a group. Let's suppose they decided to call it the Transgender Society of America. After some discussion they decide that the use of Transgender is appropriate because their anatomical features cause them to cross gender boundaries. There is nothing wrong with that conceptualization and as they use the term amongst themselves they know exactly what they mean. So far so good. But let's suppose that Dorothy, from some small Midwest town, hears that the members of the Transgender Society of America will be speaking to students at the local high school. Immediately she is upset because to her, transgender means someone who thinks they are a member of the opposite sex, and she doesn't want any such persons speaking to her son Johnny. Let's suppose someone, who sees that such a misconception could occur, simply points out to the members of the Transgender Society of America that although your choice of nomenclature is not necessarily wrong, it can create misconceptions, and perhaps you could choose something that does not cause such confusion. That's all that I am trying to do. I am not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, and there is no need for someone to feel that I am some sort of enemy for doing this.



I'm just pointing out an angle to better negate the misconceptions - I am not agreeing with them! If 'sex' can be avoided as part of the description, it helps. "Primary sexual characteristics" can be described as "genitalia" in the context of what you said, keeping the focus on on the heart of the matter, which is gender, which is what the body changes are addressing. I don't mean to go into deeper into this, since it's a sore spot, being transgendered and closeted myself, but you can't give the situation justice in a word or two, so I don't demand perfection. It's just something that could help.

I understand precisely what you are doing, and that is the essence of the subject at hand.

[CynthiaD]

OK Cynthia. Let's suppose someone is inclined to believe you. Can you offer a rationale or proof to support your assertion?

It's like trying to prove that there's water in the sea. Collecting stamps is a hobby, skydiving is a hobby, crossdressing is something more (and better) than a hobby. The world tells us that everyone must conform to their birth gender and be 100% distinctly male or female. The world says if you don't do this, you aren't as good as other people. It's really, really hard to deal with this. I think the world is wrong. I think that being able to step out of your birth gender is a very special gift, whether it's all the time or just occasionally. Still, we have to live in the world, and we have to cope with it the best we can. If a person chooses to deal with the world by calling crossressing a hobby, well ok "I believe you.":)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I'm not suggesting people stop having discussions about how they feel, but rather stop arguing about the meaning of basic words such as transsexual and transgender. :p


It's obvious by the discussion that those words are not basic enough....:drink:

[linda allen]

Well, I'm sitting at the computer in a bra, forms, panties, and hip and butt pads. That probably makes me a "crossdresser", but I've never thought of myself as "transgendered". If it makes someone feel better or helps them to understand or put things in their place, they can call me what they want to. If you ask all the crossdressers to take one step forward, I will be in the group that does. If you ask all the transgendered people to take one step forward, I will remain in my place.

[ReineD]

Reine, I think you may have breezed over what other people said (and I was implying)


I'm just pointing out an angle to better negate the misconceptions - I am not agreeing with them!

Mea culpa. :p

.............

[vetobob9]

i have read similar things and would have to agree in a general sense. there is growing consent among professionals and lay people that people who cross dress are transgender. although as you'll find on this site that people who cross dress do it in many different ways. some like myself go all out and want to spend part of their life living as a woman. some just wear lingerie around the house and never go out of the house. Some are gay, some are bisexual, some live alone and some live with a SO. Some people are lucky to have an SO that knows about our feminine ways and some do it behind their backs. I don't know what the percentages are, but do some research and take this thing called the COAGTI test. I consider myself a no-op transgender, since I live part-time as a woman and will be going out in public as Cassandra. However I think the term needs to be qualified as to the degree at which one is involved, for example, one might be TG curious. Just remember just as with ones sexuality, sensuality, eroticism, and sexual persuasion, everyone has different boundaries and perceptions of what they are or are not. Labels are a good starting point for describing yourself. For example if you were talking about your car, you would state the year, make and model. There may be modifications to car which might make it one of a kind but still it is essentially that particular year, make and model. Don't know if this helps or not.
I'd be careful promoting that test. While fun to take, it does have certain scientific and reliability issues.

[Frédérique]

According to this person, crossdressers, regardless of their gender identity, fall under the Transgender portion of the LGBT community because they are engaged in defying gender stereotypes with regards to dressing.

“According to this person” is the key piece of information here – I do not feel I am actively engaged in defying gender stereotypes when I dress. In fact, many GG’s feel that we MtF crossdressers are actively perpetuating gender stereotypes by dressing the way we do, and I can see their point, but there’s more to it than that. I, a male, wish to wear clothing that is more comfortable, or I wish to express my hidden persona (be less male), or I wish to wear the things I worship. The clothes just happen to be those worn by girls/ladies/females, and I put them on with absolutely no ulterior motive, i.e. supporting a “movement” that is at odds with stereotypical behavior…

As such, I exist outside of the LGBT “community,” and I aim to keep it that way. There are people that go through life and live it according to their own standards, not the wishes of other umbrella-dwellers. It’s not “I hate being a male, so I naturally dress as a woman,” it’s more like, “I am both male and female, and my clothing choices are an expression of this fact.” There are visual signposts along this journey into one’s own interior, and they manifest themselves as the clothes, or outfits, that we wear. I am dismayed that some individuals talk about gender stereotypes in this context, because crossdressing can be fun and beautiful, no defiance required…

[ReineD]

it’s more like, “I am both male and female, and my clothing choices are an expression of this fact.”

I think this probably fits a huge chunk of our membership here, with varying percentages that comprise the total mix, and a miryad ways to express this both in deed and in word.

[SweetIonis]

It's like trying to prove that there's water in the sea.

LOL!!! Well it is a tough one. I just thought I would give a chance to grapple with that rather challenging problem.


“According to this person” is the key piece of information here – I do not feel I am actively engaged in defying gender stereotypes when I dress. In fact, many GG’s feel that we MtF crossdressers are actively perpetuating gender stereotypes by dressing the way we do, and I can see their point, but there’s more to it than that. I, a male, wish to wear clothing that is more comfortable, or I wish to express my hidden persona (be less male), or I wish to wear the things I worship. The clothes just happen to be those worn by girls/ladies/females, and I put them on with absolutely no ulterior motive, i.e. supporting a “movement” that is at odds with stereotypical behavior…

As such, I exist outside of the LGBT “community,” and I aim to keep it that way. There are people that go through life and live it according to their own standards, not the wishes of other umbrella-dwellers. It’s not “I hate being a male, so I naturally dress as a woman,” it’s more like, “I am both male and female, and my clothing choices are an expression of this fact.” There are visual signposts along this journey into one’s own interior, and they manifest themselves as the clothes, or outfits, that we wear. I am dismayed that some individuals talk about gender stereotypes in this context, because crossdressing can be fun and beautiful, no defiance required…

Nice post Frederique. Done with your usual eloquence! You have highlighted the types of problems that come about as a result of trying to use that nomenclature in that way.

[SabrinaEmily]

I think this probably fits a huge chunk of our membership here, with varying percentages that comprise the total mix, and a miryad ways to express this both in deed and in word.

It fits me, and I do feel like an interloper here. I've never identified with the word "crossdresser" -- I only ever wanted to wear the clothes I wanted to wear. I've actually never tried to pass as a woman, and I'm not androgynous enough for it to happen on its own. I do experience dysphoria from my male body, and identify more as female than male, but I don't feel connected to "transsexual" either. I definitely fit somewhere under "transgender", so I use that a lot.

I also find it a much prettier word than most of the alternatives, and I do love pretty things. ;-)

[Sophie86]

I think it may be time for people to start reading the latest in transgender studies for correct terminology, rather than perhaps blogs or personal web pages, or maybe even making up their own because they disagree with established terms.

The issue is that these terms are only established among academics. They are not established in Middle America where we live, or among the people with whom we have to communicate. If academia decided to call us all teapots, would that be reason enough to accept the label and try to use it when talking with regular people? There are valid objections to the term transgender based on etymology, and how easily it can be conflated with transsexual in the minds of the masses. I understand that for political purposes, activists want to create a group identity that unifies all gender rebels. Politically, I stand with those who believe we have the right to present our gender any way we like without harassment. When I'm talking with family and friends, though, I want to be understood.

[Lorileah]

I am me you are he and we are ....whatever. Has it been two months already? This has been hashed and rehashed and corn beef hashed forever.

Be what you want to be, if you want to be called a tree, be a tree. I think if you do a little research of this site you will find at least a dozen threads about his and they always end the same, nobody has an answer that everyone likes. It has been generally agreed that we are all transgender in some sort of fashion and that the rest is a sub-set of that DQ, CS, TS, LMNOP.

I guess I don't understand the argument anymore. Was the OP insulted by being included in the LGBT umbrella? If so stand aside because some of here would like to get some of the rights the LGBT(Q) group is fighting for

[ReineD]

The issue is that these terms are only established among academics.

I hear what you're saying Sophie, and I must admit I posted this out of a moment of impatience (it happens) ... possibly because I've just seen sooo many threads debating the same issue over the years.

But when you think of it, many of our new terms are coined by the scientists or academes: I can't think of many examples off the bat, but words like personal computer, laptop, HDTV, heck, any new technology. People don't go around saying, "I don't like the term 'television' ... I think I'd rather call it 'audiovision'. :p

It's true that our thinking about technological toys don't run as deep as gender identity, but even newly coined psychological or mental conditions such as ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) don't get called 5 or 6 different things just because people feel the words used don't fit them exactly. Can you imagine a parent going to school and asking the teacher to be aware of her child's MID (Mindfulness Inadequacy Disorganization), or OPC (Observation Paucity Chaos)? :p

Just saying. :)

"Transgender" is a universal word used to describe a variety of people who cross the gender lines. Wearing the clothes of a gender opposite than birth does cross the gender lines, unless it is done purely for fetish, except in the case where someone's fetish is about "being" a woman more than just getting off on the shoes or whatever. "Transsexual" is a universal word to describe a person whose primary sexual characteristics do not match his or her gender identity.

I know that "crossdresser" by itself is a catchall. But, there are other terms available if someone wants to be more specific: transvectic fetishist, bigender, dualgender, just to name a few, or just plain "crossdresser" if it fits.

[SweetIonis]

I guess I don't understand the argument anymore. Was the OP insulted by being included in the LGBT umbrella? If so stand aside because some of here would like to get some of the rights the LGBT(Q) group is fighting for

Sorry if things got confused Lorileah. No, I'm not insulted at all. My point is that using the nomenclature Transgender to label ALL crossdressers creates confusion. I have said why many times in the thread, if you want to go back and look at it. I didn't say that to insult you, I just don't think it's worth covering all that ground again.

[Rianna Humble]

I do not feel I am actively engaged in defying gender stereotypes when I dress.

Why are you introducing the idea that crossing must be done to defy something. If you take a transatlantic journey, are you doing it to defy the Atlantic or to cross it?


it’s more like, "I am both male and female"

Yet you insist that you do not cross the boundary of a stereotype which says you have to be male or female?

[LeaP]

I say yes. While accepting the notion of socially-constructed gender, CD'ing by definition places one firmly into the trans range of identity and activity. I have a problem with the idea that because gender expression has an accepted normative *range* that gender is therefore rendered meaningless. I think this is especially so given the tiny percentages of the population that fall outside (inside?) social norms. In the end, I like the constructs of cisgendered (with a range of norms), and transgendered (with a large range of variation, which, unfortunately cannot be termed norms). I also reject the notion that cis women crossdress, as this is CLEARLY not their intent. In fact, this is a good illustration of not how trans behavior is accepted, but of how cis norms change. It's not the same thing.

Lea

[Julogden]

Can you all imagine a classroom in a primary school - say grade 5, where children are learning how to parse sentences in grammar class. Each child is an avid reader, but they cannot agree on grammar rules; one child calls the subject of a sentence an "adjective", while the other child calls it a "verb", and no one believes the teacher who correctly identifies it as a "noun".

:straightface:

I think it may be time for people to start reading the latest in transgender studies for correct terminology, rather than perhaps blogs or personal web pages, or maybe even making up their own because they disagree with established terms.
I couldn't agree more, Reine. You've hit the nail squarely on the head. :thumbsup:

Carol

[Schatten Lupus]

Transgender is just an umbrella term that includes the broad spectrum of gender variants. The term transsexual is thus because sex is the physical aspect of being male or female, while gender is a social construct especially in regards to gender roles and expected behaviors. While both sex and gender are altered for a transsexual, there are many other groups that do not ascribe to their prescribed gender roles, which makes the focus on altering one's sex the better description for people who desire to transition from one gender to the other when labeling such a group.
Labels exist because we are human, and because society needs labels to flourish, evolve, and to aid in communication. Not all labels are good, such as racial slurs, but terms like transgender, transvestite, transsexual, cross dresser, etc., are medically and scientifically accepted and defined terms.

[Rianna Humble]

hmmmmm

Do the latest in transgender studies say anything different from the studies that are "next to latest" or the ones before that??

Let me see, do the latest studies on transgender differ at all from those which had it down as a mental disease or defect? You tell me.

[kimdl93]

I won't get bogged down in debating the merits of various terms. For me, transgender is a satisfactory umbrella that covers a wide range of gender related issues, whether its MTF or FTM dressing, transexuals and so on. Some people may find it confusing, but then people are easily confused.

[SweetIonis]

Some people may find it confusing, but then people are easily confused.

That's the point I'm trying to make, that it confuses people, and therefore a better term should be found. That said, I personally don't have a problem with it, because actually I am transgendered, no matter how you look at it. But that's me.


CD'ing by definition places one firmly into the trans range of identity and activity.

I also reject the notion that cis women crossdress, as this is CLEARLY not their intent.


You are confusing me here. So you mean to say that if a woman dresses as a man, but does not intend to dress as a man, she IS NOT crossdressing, but if a man dresses as a woman, but that is not his intent to do, so he IS crossdressing? What kind of logic is that?

[Sophie86]

It's true that our thinking about technological toys don't run as deep as gender identity, but even newly coined psychological or mental conditions such as ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) don't get called 5 or 6 different things just because people feel the words used don't fit them exactly.

I can think of a number of possible reasons for that: 1) The name doesn't conflate ADD with other similar developmental problems. 2) Children with an ADD diagnosis can receive special help, but by fighting the diagnosis, the parents would be rejecting that help. 3) The stigma attached to being ADD is not nearly as severe as that attached to being "gender variant."


I know that "crossdresser" by itself is a catchall. But, there are other terms available if someone wants to be more specific: transvectic fetishist, bigender, dualgender, just to name a few, or just plain "crossdresser" if it fits.

I like the term crossdresser, although, as you say, it is itself a catchall. It's made up of two good Anglo-Saxon words, rather than that clinical sounding Latin. Best of all, it simply describes what I do without trying to make a statement about why I do it. I don't want a word that's going to make people think they know all about my motives when I'm not even sure why I do what I do. :)

[ReineD]

You are confusing me here. So you mean to say that if a woman dresses as a man, but does not intend to dress as a man, she IS NOT crossdressing, but if a man dresses as a woman, but that is not his intent to do, so he IS crossdressing? What kind of logic is that?

Discussions about this have been a major bee in my bonnet, so if you don't mind, Lea, I'll answer.

Some months ago there were a slew of threads posted by CDs who postulated that women who wear pants (women's pants purchased in women's clothing stores) are CDing, since pants were originally worn by men, and women have "appropriated" them, but, you know ... women should "really" be wearing dresses. lol The goal in saying these things was to complain about the injustice of women being "allowed" to CD, while men aren't.

I do agree that women's fashion choices are more varied than men's. But, it is preposterous to suggest that women are CDing when they wear pants or blue jeans that are designed for women.

[SweetIonis]

Discussions about this have been a major bee in my bonnet, so if you don't mind, Lea, I'll answer.

Some months ago there were a slew of threads posted by CDs who postulated that women who wear pants (women's pants purchased in women's clothing stores) are CDing, since pants were originally worn by men, and women have "appropriated" them, but, you know ... women should "really" be wearing dresses. lol The goal in saying these things was to complain about the injustice of women being "allowed" to CD, while men aren't.

I do agree that women's fashion choices are more varied than men's. But, it is preposterous to suggest that women are CDing when they wear pants or blue jeans that are designed for women.

I see the point. But what I would say is that at one time it was outside of the norm for women to wear such things. And actually when things like women's pants suits first became popular, they were somewhat controversial. It's pretty much accepted now, but at one time, it was somewhat controversial. Since it was outside of the norms at one time, were women who did so at that time crossdressing? What if tomorrow, Ralph Lauren started to make "booty" shorts for men. Would a man, who had no intent to crossdress, NOT be crossdressing if he wore them, just because they were designed for men?

[Lorileah]

I see the point. But what I would say is that at one time it was outside of the norm for women to wear such things.

With that logic then at one time it was outside the norm to wear anything.

Since the clothing issue is purely societal and what a person is thus decided by a group of people whom are not really a defined group of people the whole argument is moot.

[SweetIonis]

With that logic then at one time it was outside the norm to wear anything.

Ah! The good old days!!! LOL!!!



Since the clothing issue is purely societal and what a person is thus decided by a group of people whom are not really a defined group of people the whole argument is moot.

I don't think society is deciding what the person is. The person is what they are, and the choices they make in terms of their behavior determines that. However, the labels that people choose for certain types of behavior can cause misconceptions if the terms are not chosen carefully. It's particularly irritating when someone who had no role in choosing the label, finds themselves being misidentified with something that they do not want to be associated with.

[ReineD]

Since it was outside of the norms at one time, were women who did so at that time crossdressing? What if tomorrow, Ralph Lauren started to make "booty" shorts for men. Would a man, who had no intent to crossdress, NOT be crossdressing if he wore them, just because they were designed for men?

Women were no more CDing when they started to wear pants as men are today when they start to wear man skirts. I don't know if this will take off or not, but here are some pics:

http://images.nymag.com/daily/fashion/20081231_mjskirt_250x375.jpg
http://cdn.trendhunterstatic.com/thumbs/men-skirts-online-anderslandinger.jpeg
http://cdn.trendhunterstatic.com/phpthumbnails/10/10859/10859_5_600.jpeg

Men who wear sarongs or kilts aren't CDing. My 75 year old dad was not CDing when he purchased women's tights to wear under his pants during the cold winter months because he needed the added warmth.

Louis XVI was not CDing when he wore tights, heeled boots, wigs, and lace. He would have CDed had he worn Marie-Antoinette's gown. Clothing norms do change. It is not what is worn so much as it is crossing the barrier between what is generally accepted as men and women's clothing for the times. When women began to wear pants, they were within the norms of the multitude of women who wished for convenience and equality, and the pants they wore were accepted as being women's pants.

In a literal sense, the term "crossdressing" means crossing the gender barrier with clothing. It is assumed that the purpose of doing this (which is evident in just about every thread in the Picture Gallery) is to present as the gender opposite than birth.

So what do we make of men such as Jive-Turkey-On-Rye or Intertwined, who prefer to present an androgynous, mixture-of-both, or man-in-a-skirt look? I don't know that I would consider it CDing in the same sense that has come to represent the vast majority of members here. I suppose those of you who like to debate the finer points could could start a discussion about the exceptions (sorry Jive & Intertwined :p), the few men here who present as men and who like to wear skirts. It's up to you. I prefer to settle on definitions that pertain to the vast majority and also acknowledge there are a few people who fit outside the CDing norms. :)

[Schatten Lupus]

Some months ago there were a slew of threads posted by CDs who postulated that women who wear pants (women's pants purchased in women's clothing stores) are CDing, since pants were originally worn by men, and women have "appropriated" them, but, you know ... women should "really" be wearing dresses. lol The goal in saying these things was to complain about the injustice of women being "allowed" to CD, while men aren't.
I've not heard that one before, except from a small percentage of Christians who believe pants (even womens jeans that are specifically designed to accommodate a female body) are only for men and women must wear skirts or dresses. But isn't it nice that things change over time, and women can wear pants without being considered an abomination. And they can do "manly" jobs with some people cheering them on, rather than wanting to see them in a mental institute. And of course they can now be politicians, whereas it used to be considered that politics was just too rough of an environment for the frail women to get involved with.


Would a man, who had no intent to crossdress, NOT be crossdressing if he wore them, just because they were designed for men?
No. No one considers a guy who wears the "mantyhose" or whatever they're called a crossdresser, and even before those men have worn panty hose for certain reasons such as preventing leg chaffing from horse riding, or preventing jellyfish stings.

[ReineD]

I've not heard that one before ...

Oh, believe me, the debates about this were long and tedious. Still, once in awhile there'll be a newbie who posts his outrage over his wife being allowed to wear pants while he can't wear skirts, and he'll refer to his wife's clothing choices as CDing. I do understand the frustration some CDs experience over not having as many clothing choices as women, But, CDs are not doing themselves any favors when they point fingers at women instead of coming to terms with their own motives for the CDing. IMO. And generally speaking.

[SweetIonis]

In a literal sense, the term "crossdressing" means crossing the gender barrier with clothing. It is assumed that the purpose of doing this (which is evident in just about every thread in the Picture Gallery) is to present as the gender opposite than birth.

OK, so since we are talking about what goes on here, would you say that the men here on this forum that crossdress, who say that they have no desire to be a woman, are cross dressing to present themselves as women?

[ReineD]

OK, so since we are talking about what goes on here, would you say that the men here on this forum that crossdress, who say that they have no desire to be a woman, are cross dressing to present themselves as women?

It sure looks like it to me, based on the desires expressed in their posts, the questions about clothing and makeup, the discussion of breast forms, vaginas, tucking, hip pads, corsets, lingerie, wigs, and the pics in the Gallery. :) Generally speaking, of course.

[SweetIonis]

Hmmmm............

Exhibit A

[SweetIonis]

It sure looks like it to me, based on the desires expressed in their posts, the questions about clothing and makeup, the discussion of breast forms, vaginas, tucking, hip pads, corsets, lingerie, wigs, and the pics in the Gallery.

So in essence, you are saying that the desires in a person's mind can be inferred from speech and behavior.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

So in essence, you are saying that the desires in a person's mind can be inferred from speech and behavior.

just a thought for you ...
you are skipping over a concept in the discussion... you are just staring down a rabbit hole when you get too analytical without considering what is going on from 30000 feet first....the distinctions you are making have merit, but aren't really helpful imho in making your point..

this is a simple fact.. almost every crossdresser feels sexual pleasure around crossdressing..
if a woman gets all decked like lady gaga in fake beard stubble and male drag, then goes into the shower and pleasures herself...that is similar to what all the guys here are doing...otherwise its not..this is why universally when a woman dresses up like a man, no one bothers to really infer anything about it...its just not an issue

only each of us knows what images, clothes, thoughts create the pleasurable feeling...and for many crossdressers, its the feeling of "being" a woman, that creates the pleasure..whether you can infer something from speech and behavior is not the point.
i could infer that person is probably a transsexual in denial, or i could infer that person has a "fetish" for appearing as a woman, or that person is gender queer...it doesnt matter what i infer..

plus there is a social construct in our current time that guys don't wear pantyhose, guys don't wear womens clothes....
REGARDLESS of whether its fair, or whether it changes over time, or whether there is a pocket of people in new Guinea where men wear dresses..... this is just a fact of today's world ...

so crossdressing crosses social boundries AND its usually sexual for men, and women wearing mens clothes is socially acceptable and not sexually motivated at all..

it may be simply that this sexual component to crossdressing is that makes some people feel differently about what is "transgendered" and what is not...sex and gender are different things and people tend to have strong views... for example, the transsexual that has never felt sexual pleasure around dressing as a woman (and btw...many ts people feel sexual pleasure around it for much of their lives) wonders why they are included in a group that feels sexual pleasure around women's clothes..

so these men (us!) get labeled by society...and the inference made by people is not thoughtfully and deeply discussed by most people... the just infer we are different/weird/courageous/lowlife...etcetc...and the inference that you or i might make (after careful consideration of motives, appearance..etc...isn't really important)...unfortunately no matter what we say on this forum, the label matters especially to a transsexual that is trying to live every day, and make money as an out transsexual...

The out or non passing ts gets to see the implications of this label every day...and its not pretty.

[ReineD]

this is a simple fact.. almost every crossdresser feels sexual pleasure around crossdressing ...

... only each of us knows what images, clothes, thoughts create the pleasurable feeling...and for many crossdressers, its the feeling of "being" a woman, that creates the pleasure

I think if we took a poll, most CDs would say that it did start out sexually during their teenage years. And when there is such a high level of pleasure, it makes sense that the brain would rewire itself and associate a feeling of well-being with the dressing, long after the sexual urges are gone. This would also explain why it escalates for many, beginning with lingerie, then progressing to clothes, makeup, wig, etc; it's an attempt to recreate the same "feelings" as the CD ages. I know that Blanchard is not a favorite around here, but he compares the process to a man who has a deep emotional attachment to his wife long after the marriage has lost its passion. This is the goal of passion after all: to form bonds.

So, what came first, the chicken or the egg? :)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

the chegg???

you could also reverse it Reine..

perhaps the testosterone driven mind actually is only relieving the incredible tension caused by having a deep gender conflict.. almost every transsexual will say (me included) that they recall having transsexual thoughts from their earliest memory... my thoughts were more around wishing i had been a girl, rather than knowing that i was a girl...this distinction, that i made as a little kid, impacted my life in a huge way...realizing as a teenager that i could derive sexual pleasure from my feelings quickly became obsessive, guilt ridden behavior that momentarily quieted my anxiety.. it never felt "good"...

what i found out in transitioning was the reasons, the questions, the labels just melted away in knowing i had done what i needed...
this is a benefit of transition for the transsexual...clarity and closure... the idea of changing my gender seems incomprehensible to me now, and it dominated the first 45+ years of my life...its quite amazing actually..

[LeaP]

A designer can plunk an obviously effeminate garment (e.g., booty shorts in 2011) into their men's product line and, though it may be designed for a man's body and aimed at the men's market, it is still, nonetheless, effeminate, and I'd make the crossdressing argument for the man wearing it. Reine's point went to culturally-accepted gender-appropriate design. The point about intent is related to cultural acceptance. That is, if one wears a gender-acceptable garment (matching one's own sex, that is), it's hard to see any rational crossdressing argument from an external viewer's standpoint, regardless of intent. If one knowingly breaches the gender acceptability boundary (i.e., intentionally) it's crossdressing. One may do so ignorantly, of course. Whether or not you choose to call it crossdressing at that point or idiocy or something else is really not material to the crossdressing discussion.

The case of ladies pants is interesting. If you go back far enough - the 19th century, say - almost any use of pants would have been viewed as crossdressing. By the early years of the 20th century, however, pants were well-established, but only for certain activities (e.g., riding, gardening) in the first 2 or 3 decades. To wear pants out socially would have been viewed more as inappropriate or provocatively distasteful than crossdressing.

Lea

[ReineD]

perhaps the testosterone driven mind actually is only relieving the incredible tension caused by having a deep gender conflict..

Exactly. It's a "chegg". :)



almost every transsexual will say (me included) that they recall having transsexual thoughts from their earliest memory... my thoughts were more around wishing i had been a girl, rather than knowing that i was a girl...this distinction, that i made as a little kid, impacted my life in a huge way...realizing as a teenager that i could derive sexual pleasure from my feelings quickly became obsessive, guilt ridden behavior that momentarily quieted my anxiety.. it never felt "good"...

what i found out in transitioning was the reasons, the questions, the labels just melted away in knowing i had done what i needed...
this is a benefit of transition for the transsexual...clarity and closure... the idea of changing my gender seems incomprehensible to me now, and it dominated the first 45+ years of my life...its quite amazing actually..

Thanks for explaining this, Kaitlyn. :hugs:

Only one more thing remains to be explained, and this is why, for some, the GID reaches a level where to continue living as a man is unbearable to the point of suicide. While others can keep it in check, even though it impacts their marriages, perhaps jobs, their social lives ... certainly it affects the quality of their lives. And still others can easily turn the switch on and off, in other words, being a man never becomes unbearable even if there is a deep connection to a feminine psyche that is beyond the sexual. What are the factors involved .. is it personality, physiology, life circumstances?

I wonder if anyone will ever find the answers.

[SweetIonis]

just a thought for you ...
you are skipping over a concept in the discussion... you are just staring down a rabbit hole when you get too analytical without considering what is going on from 30000 feet first....the distinctions you are making have merit, but aren't really helpful imho in making your point..


Kaitlyn, thank you so very much for pointing this out! The way you did it was very kind and I appreciate it very much. I really need the help of others, that without malice, can point out things like this to me. Please by all means continue to do this.

You are right, it's not the larger issue. The larger issue is inaccurate labels. But I suppose this was something that has been in my mind for sometime, that I find very interesting, that I was trying to get resolved in a more decisive manner. A friend of mine once told the that part of my problem was that I like to put everything into boxes. LOL!

You have been so helpful to me lately Kaitlyn. You just don't know what it means to me!

[TammieIII]

I am who I am; If there is a need for a label then I''m transgendered I only wish I realized my identity earlier in my life.

[*Vanessa*]

I am who I am; If there is a need for a label then I''m transgendered I only wish I realized my identity earlier in my life.

Dido ! - the rest of the message is filler to appease the code monkey. :P

[wildsylph]

wow, This was insightful and confusing. The confusing part is the word transgender shadowing the different forms of gender understanding/reasoning. But if the information was there in the beginning of understanding the topic, it would've lessen my confusion on what terms can label an individual. And sometimes I do have the moments of wanting more feminine appearance, if that is the criteria of being labeled transgender. Then hay, the shoe fits. (size 12)

[Annaliese2010]

Is there a single source standard, or maybe a few that are universally or at least generally accepted as accurate with respect to definition of terms? I mean official references one can go to?

[ReineD]

Is there a single source standard, or maybe a few that are universally or at least generally accepted as accurate with respect to definition of terms? I mean official references one can go to?

Take a look at Wikipedia's definition of transgender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender). I know that an article in wikipedia isn't considered an definitive source since anyone can edit it, but it is still an excellent reference. Each article lists the original sources. This particular article lists 160 independent references from books, peer reviewed journals, etc. I'm sure if you sift through each of these sources, you'll find the term "transgender" consistently used to refer to anyone who crosses the gender boundaries in some way, and a "transsexual" is an individual who does not feel his or her primary sexual characteristics matches his or her gender identity.

I cannot post a link to the online version of Oxford's English Dictionary since it requires a $300 per year subscription, but the Wikipedia OEM source #2 does say, "Transgender, adj. Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender, but combines or moves between these..."

An argument can be made that a male may well wish to put on women's clothing for the purpose of presenting as a woman (or perhaps just for comfort whether it is sensual, sexual, or not), and still believe that he is conforming to the conventional notions of gender. But, I submit there are psychological and educational factors that may skew this person's self-identification or motives ... unless it is strictly an object fetish in which case I don't see the difference between items of women's clothing and other items such as latex or fur.

Generally speaking.

[juno]

I think if we took a poll, most CDs would say that it did start out sexually during their teenage years. And when there is such a high level of pleasure, it makes sense that the brain would rewire itself and associate a feeling of well-being with the dressing, long after the sexual urges are gone. This would also explain why it escalates for many, beginning with lingerie, then progressing to clothes, makeup, wig, etc; it's an attempt to recreate the same "feelings" as the CD ages. I know that Blanchard is not a favorite around here, but he compares the process to a man who has a deep emotional attachment to his wife long after the marriage has lost its passion. This is the goal of passion after all: to form bonds.

So, what came first, the chicken or the egg? :)

That is not me at all. I was into sewing, crochet, cake decorating, and other girl things long before I took up crossdressing.

My theory has always been that it has a fetish aspect in young people because any thing that has any chance of being sexually associated at that ages does become sexual. So, even if it begins as a fetish, it is hard to know if the fetish was the trigger.

It would be interesting to compare people who started crossdressing during puberty versus those who felt significant feminine interests before puberty. Are crossdressers much more represented in the started-at-puberty group?

[ReineD]

^ I know that gender specialists do ask when the CDing began. I've read in various places that it is generally thought, if it began during preschool years it might point to GID. But this still won't fit everyone.

[Wendy_Marie]

That is not me at all. I was into sewing, crochet, cake decorating, and other girl things long before I took up crossdressing.

My theory has always been that it has a fetish aspect in young people because any thing that has any chance of being sexually associated at that ages does become sexual. So, even if it begins as a fetish, it is hard to know if the fetish was the trigger.

It would be interesting to compare people who started crossdressing during puberty versus those who felt significant feminine interests before puberty. Are crossdressers much more represented in the started-at-puberty group?

The only problem with this theory is like you state it began in me long before Puberty (Unless puberty began around the age of five.)and the thought of it being sexual didn't occur to me until during the middle of puberty.., and even then i didn't dress to obtain a sexual thrill in as much as I dressed to feel normal and comfortable which then would often lead to sexual excitement.

Fetish is loosely defined as an abnormal fascination with an inanimate object....so in my case anyway...I was not crossdressing as a fetish but as a way to be me.

And as ReineD states...The time line seems to be a real factor in determining ones diagnosis from the standpoint of a clincian...that is why i state emphatically that No, not all Transgender person are crossdressers.

[Vickie_CDTV]

One can have a fetish from a very young age, whether it is for some article of ladies clothing or rubber or whatever. I found I was turned on when I was 6 years old when I was wearing my object of fascination; at 6 I didn't understand what it meant or why it happened of course, but I clearly remember being stimulated to the point of having erections. (Without even being told, I instinctively knew it was something to be ashamed of and knew others should not find out.)

[vetobob9]

Let me see, do the latest studies on transgender differ at all from those which had it down as a mental disease or defect? You tell me.

The jury is still out. But, being transgendered is now seen less and less lie a mental disorder, academically and medically. But it continues to be viewed that way on main street despite what the "experts" on mental disorder say.
Chalk that part up to simple bias.

[vetobob9]

Discussions about this have been a major bee in my bonnet, so if you don't mind, Lea, I'll answer.

Some months ago there were a slew of threads posted by CDs who postulated that women who wear pants (women's pants purchased in women's stores) are CDing, since pants were originally worn by men, and women have "appropriated" them, but, you know ... women should "really" be wearing dresses. lol The goal in saying these things was to complain about the injustice of women being "allowed" to CD, while men aren't.

I do agree that women's fashion choices are more varied than men's. But, it is preposterous to suggest that women are CDing when they wear pants or blue that are designed for women.

The problem with that is if a guy wears a skirt that was designed for men to wear, he is still considered a cross dresser.


t sure looks like it to me, based on the desires expressed in their posts, the questions about and makeup, the discussion of breast forms, vaginas, tucking, hip pads, corsets, lingerie, wigs, and the pics in the Gallery. Generally speaking, of course.

I thought breastforms, for the non TS, was for the purpose of making some clothes look better.


Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
just a thought for you ...
you are skipping over a concept in the discussion... you are just staring down a rabbit hole when you get too analytical without considering what is going on from 30000 feet first....the distinctions you are making have merit, but aren't really helpful imho in making your point..

this is a simple fact.. almost every crossdresser feels sexual pleasure around crossdressing..
if a woman gets all decked like lady gaga in fake beard stubble and male drag, then goes into the shower and pleasures herself...that is similar to what all the guys here are doing...otherwise its not..this is why universally when a woman dresses up like a man, no one bothers to really infer anything about it...its just not an issue

only each of us knows what images, , thoughts create the pleasurable feeling...and for many crossdressers, its the feeling of "being" a woman, that creates the pleasure..whether you can infer something from speech and behavior is not the point.
i could infer that person is probably a transsexual in denial, or i could infer that person has a "fetish" for appearing as a woman, or that person is gender queer...it doesnt matter what i infer..

plus there is a social construct in our current time that guys don't wear pantyhose, guys don't wear womens clothes....
REGARDLESS of whether its fair, or whether it changes over time, or whether there is a pocket of people in new Guinea where men wear dresses..... this is just a fact of today's world ...

so crossdressing crosses social boundries AND its usually sexual for men, and women wearing mens clothes is socially acceptable and not sexually motivated at all..

it may be simply that this sexual component to crossdressing is that makes some people feel differently about what is "transgendered" and what is not...sex and gender are different things and people tend to have strong views... for example, the transsexual that has never felt sexual pleasure around dressing as a woman (and btw...many ts people feel sexual pleasure around it for much of their lives) wonders why they are included in a group that feels sexual pleasure around women's clothes..

so these men (us!) get labeled by society...and the inference made by people is not thoughtfully and deeply discussed by most people... the just infer we are different/weird/courageous/lowlife...etcetc...and the inference that you or i might make (after careful consideration of motives, appearance..etc...isn't really important)...unfortunately no matter what we say on this forum, the label matters especially to a transsexual that is trying to live every day, and make money as an out transsexual...

The out or non passing ts gets to see the implications of this label every day...and its not pretty.


That's very broad brush. Not all men who wear women's clothing do so just to pleasure themselves as you put it.

If I do it, it's not because of the clothes, in fact when I do, I'm usually not wearing fem clothing but male clothing and probably thinking about some attractive female I met or because I read a passage in a nice romantic book.
The clothing has nothing to do with it.



Originally Posted by ReineD
I think if we took a poll, most CDs would say that it did start out sexually during their teenage years. And when there is such a high level of pleasure, it makes sense that the brain would rewire itself and associate a feeling of well-being with the dressing, long after the sexual urges are gone. This would also explain why it escalates for many, beginning with lingerie, then progressing to clothes, makeup, wig, etc; it's an attempt to recreate the same "feelings" as the CD ages. I know that Blanchard is not a favorite around here, but he compares the process to a man who has a deep emotional attachment to his wife long after the marriage has lost its passion. This is the goal of passion after all: to form bonds.

So, what came first, the chicken or the egg?

Then how do you explain someone such as myself who first began crossdressing, when he was in first grade and too young to know anything about sex or even to get sexual pleasure out of it?

When I did, I actually got in trouble for it because I went outside in it. LOL.

Just like I got in trouble when I used the girls restroom when I was in kindergarten.

That's probably why a lot transgendered people are in the closet because when they did it as children, they took a lot of heat for it.

[Annaliese2010]

I think if we took a poll, most CDs would say that it did start out sexually during their teenage years. And when there is such a high level of pleasure, it makes sense that the brain would rewire itself and associate a feeling of well-being with the dressing, long after the sexual urges are gone. This would also explain why it escalates for many, beginning with lingerie, then progressing to clothes, makeup, wig, etc; it's an attempt to recreate the same "feelings" as the CD ages. I know that Blanchard is not a favorite around here, but he compares the process to a man who has a deep emotional attachment to his wife long after the marriage has lost its passion. This is the goal of passion after all: to form bonds.

So, what came first, the chicken or the egg? :)

That's a brilliant analysis! I mean...it so happens to Not apply to me (my personal life, for what EVer reason follows a truly circuitous often random, abrupt and unpredictible path). But your analysis certainly makes great intuitive sense! Perhaps as...and oops maybe not, I'm just saying....perhaps it's similar to a person who must up the dose if addicted to a drug? IDK.....Maybe...maybe not. IDK..



Take a look at Wikipedia's definition of transgender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender). I know that an article in wikipedia isn't considered an definitive source since anyone can edit it, but it is still an excellent reference. Each article lists the original sources. This particular article lists 160 independent references from books, peer reviewed journals, etc. I'm sure if you sift through each of these sources, you'll find the term "transgender" consistently used to refer to anyone who crosses the gender boundaries in some way, and a "transsexual" is an individual who does not feel his or her primary sexual characteristics matches his or her gender identity.

I cannot post a link to the online version of Oxford's English Dictionary since it requires a $300 per year subscription, but the Wikipedia OEM source #2 does say, "Transgender, adj. Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender, but combines or moves between these..."

An argument can be made that a male may well wish to put on women's clothing for the purpose of presenting as a woman (or perhaps just for comfort whether it is sensual, sexual, or not), and still believe that he is conforming to the conventional notions of gender. But, I submit there are psychological and educational factors that may skew this person's self-identification or motives ... unless it is strictly an object fetish in which case I don't see the difference between items of women's clothing and other items such as latex or fur.

Generally speaking.

Thank you Reine! I'm like...yeah...Ok...you've won me over on this very important issue ;) Ya know...my problem was...I had sort of developed my own definitions going along in time for more than trivial reasons. But yes as you say... Words matter. If there isn't general agreement wrt word definition how can there be effective communication or mutual understaning? Well...anyways...like I say you've convinced me girl. I shall study the standard defs, memorize and adopt them. Again...Thanks Reine! Rationality wins in the end.

[SweetIonis]

I suppose there are two things going on here:

1. What is the meaning of transgendered?
2. Is it a good idea for the leadership of the LBGT community to use the term "transgender" as a designation for ALL persons who cross dress.

Part of the problem with the first item is that gender identity can be something that is quite subjective. For example if we were to ask everyone just what does it mean to be masculine, or what does it mean to be feminine, what does it mean to be a woman, and what does it mean to be a man, we would get many different answers. And because gender identity is based on the notions of what is masculine, what is feminine, what is a man, and what is a woman, we can run into some difficulty when trying to objectively determine a person's gender identity. For instance for some people any man who engages in crossdressing is feminine, no matter what he might say. And then someone could put forward the notion that there is no such thing as an unambiguous gender identity because if you examined closely enough you could find traces of masculinity, femininity, male, and female within everyone.

So the point is that, for the most part we have take what a person personally feels and the PREPONDERANCE of their EXTERNAL behavior THAT CAN BE OBSERVED THOUGH A NORMAL AMOUNT OF SOCIAL INTERCOURSE, to determine how to relate to the person in terms of their gender identity. It's not something that should be imposed, because of semantics, on others because that could result in an extremely severe type of tyranny. Imagine the psychological problems could result to a person, if they were put into an environment were practically everyone they came in contact with were to relate to them as a person with a gender identity diametrically opposed to what they themselves felt that they were.

I have said earlier and I will reiterate. I have noticed that men who crossdress, but who feel that their gender identity is that of a male, do not like to be considered a man who crossdresses because he feels his gender identity is that of a female. Similarly I have noticed that MtoF transsexuals do not like to be associated with crossdressers who engage in crossdressing just to fulfill some temporary fantasy about being a woman. And both have very good reasons for feeling the way that they do. Again the problem with using the label transgender to describe all these groups of people is that the lay person will naturally not make a differentiation between them. And as such persons in these groups will find that they will be associated with activity that they do not want to be a part of.

[Rianna Humble]

Imagine the psychological problems could result to a person, if they were put into an environment were practically everyone they came in contact with were to relate to them as a person with a gender identity diametrically opposed to what they themselves felt that they were.

They might even end up suffering from Gender Dysphoria :eek: Or possibly become transsexual if the dysphoria were so acute that they felt compelled to act upon it.

Still, we don't know anyone like that here, or do we?

[SweetIonis]

They might even end up suffering from Gender Dysphoria :eek: Or possibly become transsexual if the dysphoria were so acute that they felt compelled to act upon it.

Still, we don't know anyone like that here, or do we?

You mean to tell me there are diabolical tyrants here???

Tell me it ain't so!

[christina s]

I would say no . To me the word transgendered means that you were born as the wrong gender . My crossdressing is me expressing my feminine side and trying to emulate a women not be one if that makes sense .

[SweetIonis]

That makes total sense Christina. It get's to the heart of the matter!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

vetobob .. thnx for the response..

i read your post and think you highlight part of the difficulty in discussing these terms...going into the girls bathroom when you are a little kid is not crossdressing.. trying on clothes and going outside at 6 yrs old is not typical behavior of crossdressers..i used to try on clothes in the attic and come downstairs to play "wedding" in my moms dress..
those are behaviors of mtf transsexuals...

do you feel that you are a crossdresser? i know i did for a very long time.. its just another wrinkle to confuse everyone that many of us take quite along time to come to terms with things ...cds and ts alike...
i bet there are a number of people here looking at this thread that currently think of themselves as crossdressers that will change the way they feel over time..

[SweetIonis]

Time can not only have the effect of changing the way we view ourselves, but also the way we view others. Furthermore it can change our phenomenal and existential viewpoint.

Gender is a funny thing. If you look deeply you will find it is based in desire. Given a certain setting of time and circumstance, desire is the force that when filtered through the particular type of intelligence that an individual has developed, determines behavior. A person's external and internal behavior, when filtered through the type of intelligence they have developed will determine their conceptualization of their identity. The observation of the behavior of others when filtered through the type of intelligence we have developed will determine our conceptualization of the identity of others. What's interesting is that it is not a one way process, because our sense of identity as well as how others identify us will influence our behavior. This is all a part of the complicated process of intelligence acting as a filter of desire.

Desire is the driving force in this matter.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

If desire is the driving force..."Who" or "What" is doing the desiring?

our own concept of ourselves probably can be influenced by other factors. but regardless of how you or i figures it all out..there is at the bottom an identity that is not changeable by what you or i think about it.. and this core identity is what drives everything..it may or may not be binary, but that identity is basically male or female..

what this thread is debating is whether the term transgender applies to (all)crossdressers....

regardless of the answer, its interesting that lots of crossdressers say they don't care, but very few transsexuals say they don't care...
a person without a conflict of their core gender can much more easily say they don't care..its easy to say I'm just a human being, when there is no conflict for you....there is nothing to worry about..this is a massive fundamental difference between cd's and ts's....

people looking at a crossdresser next to a transsexual cannot see this conflict or lack of conflict.. they just see cross gender behaviour, and in their minds, having a core gender conflict can seem literally incomprehensible...but they can understand the idea that the man over there is dressed like a girl quite easily... and so all of us are lumped together, even though we are quite different...further complicating it to onlookers is how many of us start out conceptualizing ourselves as cd's to use ionis idea, and then realize over time that we are actually ts! ....maybe that person is transtransgender...hehe..

[Sue101]

I agree that there is too much confusion with the term transgendered. To me it should really only be used to describe those who float in-between the two binaries and suffer gender dysphoria as a result.

As you said everyone is in fact a mixture of both male and female and so it is not useful to use the transgendered term unless they experience gender dysphoria. And most Cds do not suffer from dysphoria at all. Rather they just want the freedom to express their own femininity - basically in essence they are the male equivalent of tomboys.

The desire to emulate is nothing more than the desire to submerge yourself in your fantasy/escapist role-playing where satisfaction is obtained by making the experience as close as possible to reality so that we believe we an have the same experiences as GGs. The role-playing can reach the point where the CD essentially creates a whole new character that he can switch into whenever he wants to escape from his male reality. You could say that crossdressing is the real-life version of the many examples of on-line fantasy role-playing games that many people become seriously addicted to. Instead of immersing yourself into a computer generated character in a fantasy setting, we use ourselves as the canvas and use the real world as the backdrop. You cannot get more immersive than that!

The problem with accepting the above explanation is that it is not very satisfying and sympathetic compared to claiming the reason behind the crossdressing is transgenderism and that we were born this way. It is a hard sell to convince anyone to accept us, especially our SOs, if we were to explain our desire as fantasy role-playing. Even SOs who have accepted their cding partners would not want to depart from the transgendered explanation.

There is a further complication. Neither gender nor sexual orientation is set in stone. Our desires and self-identity can change if we will it hard enough and for long enough. Some older CDs will find that they slowly drifted away and even abandoned their male gender role in order to accommodate and expand their feminine desires. They become increasingly negative and dismissive about masculinity while worshiping the alter of femininity. So there is a slow gradual process in which cds who begin as begin as non-transgendered can turn themselves into transgendered beings - if the will and desire is strong enough. So you can end up with a confusing mixture of crossdressers - some are transgendered, most are not but many are on life paths that will slowly make them so.

[diannecourtney]

If its a duck, call it a duck. To use an expression used by the LGBT's, I have pride in being either. Further a fully attired girl or lady does not cause any "hate" on this male, who can never wait to get into his girlie things.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

If its a duck, call it a duck. To use an expression used by the LGBT's, I have pride in being either. Further a fully attired girl or lady does not cause any "hate" on this male, who can never wait to get into his girlie things.

if it's a duck, and everybody calls it a dog, life can really suck for that duck... i can't believe i just wrote that..

you don't have an internal conflict..the words are just words..labels are just labels..
you know, and you have always known what you are... and you've enjoyed all the benefits of the privilege of being treated in alignment with your own identity...it's a blessing that most people (and ducks) get in life..

[SweetIonis]

If desire is the driving force..."Who" or "What" is doing the desiring?

our own concept of ourselves probably can be influenced by other factors. but regardless of how you or i figures it all out..there is at the bottom an identity that is not changeable by what you or i think about it.. and this core identity is what drives everything..it may or may not be binary, but that identity is basically male or female.

I don't dispute that there is a core identity. Neither do I dispute that it is fundamentally male or female. But if you are putting forward the notion that there is something called identity that can be characterized free of desire, that I dispute. To be clear, the conceptualization of identity, without any desire is meaningless. I really don't think you can differentiate identity, i.e. make a difference between male and female gender without reference to desire. Again desire is what characterizes identity. It's something like saying heat characterizes fire. Furthermore a person can choose to change the label that they put on that identity although, that identity will remain what it is.

Any rate I said all that to say the notion that desire is fundamental does not dispute the notion of a fundamental identity.

[Speck]

I have an opinion on this whole idea of labels that I’d like to share and see how many of you could live with it. These are my beliefs given all I’ve read, heard and seen so far but I hold out for the possibility that my opinion may change as I come to learn more. This is hard to explain so bear with me.

I believe being transgendered is a question of degree rather than you are or you aren’t and I believe a person is transgendered if they experience gender dysphoria but again, gender dysphoria is a question of degree. Let’s take the example someone gave of a tomboy. I believe that while society doesn’t generally slap the transgender label on her, she still experiences dysphoria. A tomboy grows up hating dolls and dresses and likes the things that boys typically like. She grows up wondering why she’s different and depending upon her environment (parents, teachers, and family and friend attitudes) this feeling of being different will cause her a certain degree of dysphoria but I’d suggest it’s mild. Mild enough that she can make some life choices so that her gender identity and her natal sex are at peace. She may find a career in the athletic field, dress girly less frequently than her female friends but in general the dysphoria is manageable.

Now take a natal male who grows up wanting to wear bright colours, doesn’t like sports and is perhaps a bit cerebral and would rather talk about things other than the toilet humour that they boys typically engage in. He wonders why he’s different but again, depending on his environment, this feeling of being different will cause a degree of dysphoria but here again, he may find a career in the arts, dress in terribly unimaginative clothing less frequently than his male friends but in general finds peace between his insides and his outside.

I realize that to describe a tomboy’s experience and the experience of the male counterpart to the tomboy, I’ve used stereo types and generalizations. I actually apologize for that because the older I get the more I wonder if gender isn’t just a grouping of personality traits mixed with hormones and if humans hadn’t created such a divide between the two sexes, we’d all just be people with some physiological differences but nowhere near the generalizations of what it means to be male versus female the way it is in our society today.

Anyway, to go on…now, if you increase the difference between the insides and the outside, this person feels more than the mild dysphoria of a tomboy. The greater the difference between the inside and the outside, the greater the disphoria. When the dysphoria is great enough that it drives someone to wear the clothes of the opposite gender, not out of comfort but specifically to emulate the opposite gender, then I believe that is a transgendered person, albeit a bit more than the tomboy but not so much so that they can’t find peace between their insides and their outsides. They find that peace by crossdressing occasionally and making life choices that enables them to do so easily. Where the insides differ from their outside to a very large extent but not quite opposing each other, you have a person that needs to express their femininity way more frequently and needs to go all the way rather than a few items of female clothes when crossdressing. So naturally, when the insides are completely opposed to their outside, the dysphoria is unmanageable and relief comes in the form of living 24/7 as the gender opposite the one they are born or SRS. Then we call them transsexual.

Now, I’ll go one step further and suggest that there would be no dysphoria at all if everyone could behave any which way they wanted without the pressure of societal norms and SRS would never be needed (might still be desired but not needed). I think I’ve outlined a few different points on the transgender spectrum:

Tomboy = mild dysphoria

Occasional crossdresser = moderate dysphoria

Frequent crossdresser = significant dysphoria

24/7 or SRS = unmanageable dysphoria

Perhaps somewhere between moderate and significant, one might find the dual gender or bi gender.

To me, the tomboy is not transgendered because she is not driven to emulate a man (bind her breasts, apply fake facial hair) but neither is a post-op transsexual because they no longer have dysphoria. So, the label transgender as a term that defines everyone who deliberately changes their appearance to emulate the opposite sex fits as an umbrella term.

Now, as to why TGism appears to be progressive….I’d say that there are many who are far more dysphoric than they’ve allowed themselves to feel either by repressing feelings or denying them and over time, either make progress at becoming honest with themselves or get tired of trying to hide who they really are and start letting down their guard little by little.

I guess what I’m saying is that gender identity is a spectrum, therefore, dysphoria is a spectrum and transgender is a spectrum and the behaviours exhibited are as different as there are points on that spectrum. To further complicate things, our environment also impacts behaviours and trying to unravel nature versus nurture is not possible, at least not yet. Further research is needed but won’t likely happen in my lifetime.

Speck

[SweetIonis]

The desire to emulate is nothing more than the desire to submerge yourself in your fantasy/escapist role-playing where satisfaction is obtained by making the experience as close as possible to reality so that we believe we an have the same experiences as GGs. The role-playing can reach the point where the CD essentially creates a whole new character that he can switch into whenever he wants to escape from his male reality. You could say that crossdressing is the real-life version of the many examples of on-line fantasy role-playing games that many people become seriously addicted to. Instead of immersing yourself into a computer generated character in a fantasy setting, we use ourselves as the canvas and use the real world as the backdrop. You cannot get more immersive than that!

The problem with accepting the above explanation is that it is not very satisfying and sympathetic compared to claiming the reason behind the crossdressing is transgenderism and that we were born this way. It is a hard sell to convince anyone to accept us, especially our SOs, if we were to explain our desire as fantasy role-playing. Even SOs who have accepted their cding partners would not want to depart from the transgendered explanation.

What if it's not something that you can step in and out of. What if it's something that you feel and you can't stop it. It's that what you would call a dysphoria?



There is a further complication. Neither gender nor sexual orientation is set in stone.

I agree with that theoretically. But with respect to gender identity in particular, in some instances it COULD be something that is so difficult to change that it would render that impractical. Actually I agree with Speck. You can conceptualize that thing as some sort of spectrum, and depending on where you start on the spectrum you might be able to move to an area where you would notice some significant difference. But if you are starting from a place located on the extremes, it might be difficult to make it to the other side in a lifetime.

[SweetIonis]

If desire is the driving force..."Who" or "What" is doing the desiring?

our own concept of ourselves probably can be influenced by other factors. but regardless of how you or i figures it all out..there is at the bottom an identity that is not changeable by what you or i think about it.. and this core identity is what drives everything..it may or may not be binary, but that identity is basically male or female..


I have thought about this all day, and this conceptualization is just very flawed. For one to assume that there is a core identity that is basically male or female or some gradation between the two, WITHOUT PROVIDING A WAY TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN such identities is just plain sloppy intellectual work. The second thing is that when you actually try to distinguish between such identities, you can't do so without reference to desire, which implies that DESIRE IS MORE FUNDAMENTAL. The third thing we are still left with the question of WHO POSSESSES THE IDENTITY. And related to that, lastly, that conceptualization makes no provision for the state of sentience, i.e. cognition, the state of being aware.

A conceptualization that would accommodate a discussion of gender identity that avoids all these difficulties is to assume that there are fundamentally two things that we cannot break down into anything more basic, desire and cognition. Furthermore if we assume that cognition is under the influence of an identity THAT IS ATTRIBUTED BY DESIRE (for example like heat is an attribute of fire), then everything else flows in a natural way. This conceptualization neatly deals with the question of "who is desiring" as a well as "who possess the identity". And it allows us to create a taxonomy to classify this identity in terms of male, female, or gradations in between. This was severely lacking in the above conceptualization.

Damn, I meant to respond to another post, but I hit the wrong button!

[Rianna Humble]

I'll go one step further and suggest that there would be no dysphoria at all if everyone could behave any which way they wanted without the pressure of societal norms and SRS would never be needed (might still be desired but not needed).

This is a very pretty theory, but totally ignores the fundamental point that dysphoria comes from having a body which betrays us by developing in the opposite direction to our gender. It is not about behaviour. Gender Identity is not a lifestyle choice, it's about WHO we are, not about what we do.

[Sue101]

She may find a career in the athletic field, dress girly less frequently than her female friends but in general the dysphoria is manageable. I like that you have thought about tomboys because their behavior is definitely related to ours but I wonder if you have missed an important point, namely why is a tomboy's dysphoria manageable? I would suggest tomboys do not go into the closet and do not seek to emulate men because tomboy behavior is allowable in society. A tomboy is seen as a girl who is not following the rules, a rebel if you may, many think admirable. Tomboys are not considered perverts or weirdos like cders, most parents have little issue with the behavior and there are many role models to look up to. So the dysphoria is manageable because it does not have to be internalized but can in fact be externalized from childhood onwards and simply becomes a natural part of her personality. A tomboy does not have to fantasize about doing male things and hanging around with the lads, she just does it.

Typical cder behavior differs from tomboys because he has to enter the closet for survival. His desire to express femininity can only be channeled through fantasies which means his ideas often become warped into extreme versions of femininity because there are no boundaries. Once in the closet he develops feelings of shame and guilt which he copes with by compartmentalizing his feminine self instead of integrating it into his whole self. His male facade is false because it lacks the feminine component kept secretly under wraps.

I believe that tomboys and cders begin from the same point but end up with quite different behaviors because of the different attitudes toward male and females challenging their gender roles.


I actually apologize for that because the older I get the more I wonder if gender isn’t just a grouping of personality traits mixed with hormones and if humans hadn’t created such a divide between the two sexes, we’d all just be people with some physiological differences but nowhere near the generalizations of what it means to be male versus female the way it is in our society today. Spot on. When scientists conduct gender tests which remove the social need to conform to gender roles (ie the test subjects think nobody is watching them or can trace their thoughts and actions) then the differences between the genders all but vanishes. Are we pretty much indistinguishable, the differences so minor that they are unnoticeable. It is only when people conform to their expected gender role that noticeable differences appear.


What if it's not something that you can step in and out of. What if it's something that you feel and you can't stop it. It's that what you would call a dysphoria? Good question. It depends on why you feel you cannot make crossdressing an occasional experience. It is either you are genuinely a transgender person so it is part of your natural personality. However if that was the case then you would have struggled with gender dysphoria on a daily basis throughout your life from the earliest childhood memories onwards. If that describes you then yes you are transgendered.

The other possibility is that you have become addicted to the role-playing so that it has become ingrained into your being. You become what you wish yourself to be. You did not start out transgendered with dysphoria but the compulsion overtook you and dysphoria emerged as you evolved a into transgendered individual by emphasizing your feminine attributes while minimizing your masculine. In this model, if you can stop the compulsion then you might be able to reverse the dysphoria and reestablish a healthy relationship with your masculine side.


But with respect to gender identity in particular, in some instances it COULD be something that is so difficult to change that it would render that impractical. I agree with most people there is no wiggle room. But I believe that is because of gender conditioning. Everyday we encounter hundreds of situations and bits of information that reinforce gender expectations. People are hemmed into a narrow path which guarantees social acceptance. So most people have no interest whatsoever in altering their gender identity as they willingly accept conformity and the benefits that flow from that. There has to be both desire and willpower to block social pressure to conform so to create your own destiny.

The crossdressing community shows beyond doubt that gender identity can be altered if the need and want are there. I don't think it matters where you start at on the gender spectrum, rather it is where you want to end up at that is important. But the earlier you start out, the more likely you will succeed because you learn to play along with gender conformity rather than accept it as fact resulting in greater free will to decide for yourself.

[LeaP]

I have thought about this all day, and this conceptualization is just very flawed. For one to assume that there is a core identity that is basically male or female or some gradation between the two, WITHOUT PROVIDING A WAY TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN such identities is just plain sloppy intellectual work. The second thing is that when you actually try to distinguish between such identities, you can't do so without reference to desire, which implies that DESIRE IS MORE FUNDAMENTAL. The third thing we are still left with the question of WHO POSSESSES THE IDENTITY. And related to that, lastly, that conceptualization makes no provision for the state of sentience, i.e. cognition, the state of being aware.

A conceptualization that would accommodate a discussion of gender identity that avoids all these difficulties is to assume that there are fundamentally two things that we cannot break down into anything more basic, desire and cognition. Furthermore if we assume that cognition is under the influence of an identity THAT IS ATTRIBUTED BY DESIRE (for example like heat is an attribute of fire), then everything else flows in a natural way. This conceptualization neatly deals with the question of "who is desiring" as a well as "who possess the identity". And it allows us to create a taxonomy to classify this identity in terms of male, female, or gradations in between. This was severely lacking in the above conceptualization.


Great thinking, but I disagree in several respects:

1) Desire doesn't strike me as something fundamental in the way you are using it. Desire changes over time and with circumstances, with maturity and even training. It is easily enhanced, compromised, and manipulated. I don't equate innate drive to desire, but perhaps something closer to this is what you intended? Unfortunately, even this doesn't account for all transgender expression or identity (see my closing sentence).

2) A binary approach seems to accurately describe only a subset of transgender identities. This has been well-discussed on the forum.

3) I don't follow your point on cognition.

At this point, I tend to believe there are multiple, valid explanations for transgender expression, including purely biological, sociological, psycho-sexual, artistic & symbolic, and many others.

Lea

[SweetIonis]

Good question. It depends on why you feel you cannot make crossdressing an occasional experience. It is either you are genuinely a transgender person so it is part of your natural personality. However if that was the case then you would have struggled with gender dysphoria on a daily basis throughout your life from the earliest childhood memories onwards. If that describes you then yes you are transgendered.

The other possibility is that you have become addicted to the role-playing so that it has become ingrained into your being. You become what you wish yourself to be. You did not start out transgendered with dysphoria but the compulsion overtook you and dysphoria emerged as you evolved a into transgendered individual by emphasizing your feminine attributes while minimizing your masculine. In this model, if you can stop the compulsion then you might be able to reverse the dysphoria and reestablish a healthy relationship with your masculine side.

It's not a compulsion, because compulsions are confined to specific behavior. As I said earlier in this thread, there is something called identity that is attributed by desire. In my case it's this identity that is affected, not just a particular behavior. And that identity carries along with it a large set of desires. I have told you before that even from my first experience with cross dressing, I didn't just desire to be a female, I felt like I was a female. And there is a big difference. I know what a fantasy is, and believe me, my experience is not like that. I think you are right on mark however about the dysphoria evolving.

It's funny that I never really seriously considered I could have such a dysphoria because that would make me a transsexual. And while I could empathize which much that the transsexuals I had come in contact with up until VERY recently had to say, I know I don't experience an overt physical attraction for men and I never had that constant experience when I was younger as you pointed out. However, I was really stunned when I read the work of a few experts who pointed out that they were treating people who, just like me, did not really have that type of experience as a child. And that there were quite a few transsexuals who experience, exactly what I feel, and don't experience any attraction for men. Especially, I thought that all transsexuals desire men. So there it is likely that I could actually be a transsexual, but it's something that I think an expert would have to evaluate. If that's so, it's so, if not that's fine too. I am what I am in that regard. But if I am, I just don't see how some sort of transition is in the cards for me, as I can't give up my career and at this point don't want to see my life turned upside down. I will just have to live with the dysphoria IF that's what it really is, and that is not clear at this point.



I agree with most people there is no wiggle room. But I believe that is because of gender conditioning. Everyday we encounter hundreds of situations and bits of information that reinforce gender expectations. People are hemmed into a narrow path which guarantees social acceptance. So most people have no interest whatsoever in altering their gender identity as they willingly accept conformity and the benefits that flow from that. There has to be both desire and willpower to block social pressure to conform so to create your own destiny.

The crossdressing community shows beyond doubt that gender identity can be altered if the need and want are there. I don't think it matters where you start at on the gender spectrum, rather it is where you want to end up at that is important. But the earlier you start out, the more likely you will succeed because you learn to play along with gender conformity rather than accept it as fact resulting in greater free will to decide for yourself.

I am running out of time and I want to deal with something else here. I will briefly state that Columbus had the right idea. It's possible to sail to India from Western Europe by heading west. What he didn't realize was how big the world was. I think that's the problem Sue. Perhaps I will come back to this later and say more.


Great thinking, but I disagree in several respects:

1) Desire doesn't strike me as something fundamental in the way you are using it. Desire changes over time and with circumstances, with maturity and even training. It is easily enhanced, compromised, and manipulated. I don't equate innate drive to desire, but perhaps something closer to this is what you intended? Unfortunately, even this doesn't account for all transgender expression or identity (see my closing sentence).

Thanks for the thoughtful response Lea. I will try to deal with your objections point by point. Let me deal with this first one by bringing some clarity into this conceptualization of identity. As I said, identity can be conceptualized as an object that is attributed by desire. Perhaps though, it can better be thought of as an object where a large set of desires have combined to form and revolve around a central concept. It's similar to a large organic compound that consists of atoms of many different types. The atoms are analogous to the various desires and the identity itself is analogous to the compound as a whole.

Perhaps that helps.



2) A binary approach seems to accurately describe only a subset of transgender identities. This has been well-discussed on the forum.


The beauty of this model is that it readily adapts to the concept of non-binary gender identity. In fact I think the possibility of a non binary gender identity flows naturally as a result of the conceptualization that various desires comprise a gender identity.



3) I don't follow your point on cognition.


I think that we cannot deal with any of these questions properly unless we try to give an account on the state of sentience. In other words there is a sentient being, something that is aware that it exists, that is experiencing all these things. Here, I have postulated that cognition, the state of being aware, exists fundamentally and can't be broken down into anything more fundamental. It is being put forward as something that is there, that is self evident, axiomatic. The same thing with desire. It's just like in Newtonian physics, it is postulated without proof that force and mass exist. And by assuming these things exist fundamentally, we can then proceed to explain various types of phenomenon. Mathematics or ANY BRANCH OF KNOWLEDGE works in a similar fashion, YOU HAVE TO ASSUME SOME BASIC THINGS ARE TRUE, and then you proceed to explain other things.



At this point, I tend to believe there are multiple, valid explanations for transgender expression, including purely biological, sociological, psycho-sexual, artistic & symbolic, and many others.

Lea

I don't dispute that Lea. And thanks for pointing that out. I am just putting forward what I feel offers a good way of viewing the subject matter.

[Joanne f]

The thing is where do you actually draw the line and say that someone is transgender, apart from the two extreme ends (very masculin or very feminine feelings) there is hell of a lot inbetween that could be normal male or female feelings that will not make you transgender, i personaly know i am transgender as my feminine feelings go more than half way but then what would most call half way , maybe it is disisre one thing more that the other.

[SweetIonis]

Now, I’ll go one step further and suggest that there would be no dysphoria at all if everyone could behave any which way they wanted without the pressure of societal norms and SRS would never be needed (might still be desired but not needed).

I don't know about that. I dysphoria would still be there, it just might not to be as difficult to manage.

[Kate Simmons]

That statement in itself is stereotypical. Simply expressing being one's self doesn't fall into any category and never will.:)

[SweetIonis]

What statement are you refering to Abigail?

[jillleanne]

I was just having are rather long conversation with someone I know who is very active in the LGBT rights movement. According to this person, crossdressers, regardless of their gender identity, fall under the Transgender portion of the LGBT community because they are engaged in defying gender stereotypes with regards to dressing.

Is this true? Do you agree with this assessment?

Yes, period. It would be much simplier if we just, for the sake of labelling, and so the confused society at large could possibly grasp just a hint of correct understanding, erase all the labels and just call everyone 'transgender'. Or idealistically, do away with all the labels period and just call us people. What a novel idea!

[Sue101]

It's not a compulsion, because compulsions are confined to specific behavior. As I said earlier in this thread, there is something called identity that is attributed by desire. In my case it's this identity that is affected, not just a particular behavior. And that identity carries along with it a large set of desires.
I beg to differ, crossdressing to become female is a specific behavior. You say that your identity is affected, I would say you are very much correct, it is what I have been discussing. There is a chicken and egg situatiion going on. Your crossdressing affects your identity, your idenity affects your crossdressing. Behavior and identity are waltzing together in a symbiotic relationship.

It is an issue that is rarely addressed in forums. You cannot have a crossdressing behavior and not have it affect your gender identity. And the more you engage in the behavior, the greater its' effect on identity which in turn reshapes the behavior to match the shifting gender identity.

Any behavior has this affect on identity even a job. If you joined the police force then the effect of learning a whole new form of behavior will change who you are internally. A man who leans how to be a woman is changing himself.

This leads back to the fundamental question in a chicken and egg situation - which came first? the behavior or the identity. I still maintain that if it is core identity then the transgenderism would have manifested itself throughout your childhood. If the crossdressing came out of the blue then it is most likely the behavior that kick-started the process and promoted feelings of transgenderism.

It is perfectly acceptable to say the issue is moot and you should deal with consequences, although the better you understand the processes the more successful you will be in integrating this into a happy and productive life.


So there it is likely that I could actually be a transsexual, but it's something that I think an expert would have to evaluate. If you need someone else to tell you that, I would say you are not. Transsexuality is a profound state of mind, you know you are a woman compared to just wanting to experience what it is like to be a woman.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The reason its not addressed on the forums is because its not true... we are all different, but crossdressing behavior does not change your gender identity... certainly it impacts lots of parts of each of us in many different and wonderful ways.

I did everything MALE...MALE MALE MALE MALE ..... that did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to change my identity...it just melted my soul until i admitted to myself what i was.... this is consistent with a huge number of experiences...... my identity was something i could not escape and only be embracing was i able to even see peace of mind in the future... the idea you are talking about is the EXACT opposite of what mid and late life ts people are doing every day...it is the exact opposite of what is really going on..

What i think sue you may be underestimating is the ability of the human mind to trick itself to cope with deep issues such as guilt, shame, and fear....these are the real killer issues...

it is actually COMMON for transsexuals to say they realized it late in life, or they never crossdressed until they self identified as transsexual, or they just assumed they were crossdressers and then BAM, the bell is rung and life is never the same....
it is common for transsexuals to live in shame and fear, and use crossgender behaviour to relieve anxiety... i guarantee there is someone reading this right now that thinks they are "just" crossdressing and not realizing that in the future, the bell will ring, and it will hit them hard...not because their dressing will change them, but because their dressing will not satisfy their need to exist in this world in the right identity, as a woman....

[SweetIonis]

The reason its not addressed on the forums is because its not true...

Kaitlyn, you are my friend. If this discussion is offensive to you consider it finished. If it has hurt you in the slightest way, I am deeply sorry for it.

Sue, Kaitlyn is my friend. We do not have to discuss this here. Let's do so by PM.

To both of you, I have something I want to share with you that happened today, but I need to do it privately. Both of you are very intelligent. I have formed this bond with Kaitlyn, and I don't want anything to come between it, if I can help it.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

no offense at all!! its just a conversation.. yes i have a strong view, and i also i am talking about experience and not theory..i have no medical background.. its just a conversation..

its an important idea whether a person can be conditioned into a gender.. there are some really nasty people out there that make a living trying to do just that, it has been tried, and its killed people..they do it with gay people too...
so when i see that idea here i tend to comment on it...pls no worries.. i like to scrap a little sometimes even with my friends!!

[carrie-ann]

I agree with you 100% I'm 247 and I tell everyone I'm transgenered. It covers all cd,tv,ts.

[SweetIonis]

no offense at all!! its just a conversation.. yes i have a strong view, and i also i am talking about experience and not theory..i have no medical background.. its just a conversation..

its an important idea whether a person can be conditioned into a gender.. there are some really nasty people out there that make a living trying to do just that, it has been tried, and its killed people..they do it with gay people too...
so when i see that idea here i tend to comment on it...pls no worries.. i like to scrap a little sometimes even with my friends!!

So glad you are not offended. You have every reason to be concerned. I just didn't want you to take anything personally, because believe me, there is not the slightest malicious intent on my part. I think you know that.

The thing is this, gender identity is quite a bit more deep rooted and complicated than most people realize. To say that it is based on desire, does not NECESSARILY mean that it's possible for a human being to arbitrarily change someone's gender identity.

I'm going to go to another analogy. Desire can be considered to be like plants that grow from seeds. Our minds are like a field where all these different types of plants are growing. Desire enters the mind through association and suggestion. At first it's just like a seed that has been planted. Depending on the nature of the field and the environment, the seed may or may not grow right away. Some may sit for a while, dormant until they start to grow. Some may grow immediately. So we have all these desires in our mind. Seeds are constantly being sown there. Some desires that are there are dormant, some have just started to grow, some are at a point where they are almost mature, and some of them are mature and we are enjoying the fruits of them.

The thing is this, the desires that make up the garden of gender identification can be quite elaborate and mature. Let's suppose you have a redwood forest that has been growing for thousands of years. Then you want to start another forest to overtake that one. It's not going to happen in a by planting a few pine trees. It's not going to happen in a few years, because it took thousands of years to make that forest. You will have to put a similar type of effort to overtake that forest, and it won't be possible over the course of a lifetime. In a similar way, the desires that go into making gender identification can be quite complicated, and rather large and deep rooted. To think that simply by putting a dress on some arbitrary person and telling them that they are a girl will change that identification is naive. Now it may be if the desires in someone's mind are of such a nature that they have some pre-disposition to the idea then it may be possible to alter it to the extent where that becomes the dominant focus. But they would already have to have most of the stuff in place already to make that happen.

A lot of the stuff that is involved in behavioral psychology can be very dangerous when in the wrong hands. This is ESPECIALLY TRUE WHEN PSYCHOLOGISTS REALLY DON"T UNDERSTAND CLEARLY WHAT THEY ARE DEALING WITH IN THE FIRST PLACE. They should leave such things alone.

[SweetIonis]

I beg to differ, crossdressing to become female is a specific behavior. You say that your identity is affected, I would say you are very much correct, it is what I have been discussing. There is a chicken and egg situatiion going on. Your crossdressing affects your identity, your idenity affects your crossdressing. Behavior and identity are waltzing together in a symbiotic relationship.

It is an issue that is rarely addressed in forums. You cannot have a crossdressing behavior and not have it affect your gender identity. And the more you engage in the behavior, the greater its' effect on identity which in turn reshapes the behavior to match the shifting gender identity.

Any behavior has this affect on identity even a job. If you joined the police force then the effect of learning a whole new form of behavior will change who you are internally. A man who leans how to be a woman is changing himself.

You are so smart. I really like talking with you. Here you have made some good points. However, I think you are missing something. I am thinking about some very specific feelings that I have from time to time that are quite intense. I know you may find it strange. And if it's something that you have never experienced it would be something quite difficult to understand. I know exactly what you mean by a compulsion, and I know that crossdressing can be a compulsion. But it's one thing to want to crossdress. I know what that is like. Most of the time I am fantasizing like that. However, it's another thing to feel that you are something else. When those feelings come over me, they are quite intense. It's not simply about crossdressing. I said I am going to send you a PM. Perhaps I will try to explain it, although it's probably going to be something that is misunderstood.



This leads back to the fundamental question in a chicken and egg situation - which came first? the behavior or the identity. I still maintain that if it is core identity then the transgenderism would have manifested itself throughout your childhood. If the crossdressing came out of the blue then it is most likely the behavior that kick-started the process and promoted feelings of transgenderism.

Well again, there are people being treated for gender dysphoria now for whom the experience in childhood does not apply. That's a fact. Now you can still say it's not about a core gender identity and that's fine. But that does not change the fact. Now for the sake of discussion, someone could say that actually it was there, but that is just needed to be uncovered. Me personally, to rely on the seed/field analogy that I gave earlier, I would say it was like a plant that was there that was not quite mature and just needed some reinforcement to make it's presence fully felt.





If you need someone else to tell you that, I would say you are not. Transsexuality is a profound state of mind, you know you are a woman compared to just wanting to experience what it is like to be a woman.

Perhaps guidance would have been a more suitable term. That said however, I think you have made a powerful point. The sub-conscious choice of words could reveal something that is deeper. To be honest, I could see why someone who felt the things I feel would want to transition, regardless of whether it would be successful or not. For me however, the whole thing is a challenge. It's this whole thing of challenging danger and triumphing despite the obstacles.

I will talk about it some more with you in private.

[PetiteTonya]

Yes, period. It would be much simplier if we just, for the sake of labelling, and so the confused society at large could possibly grasp just a hint of correct understanding, erase all the labels and just call everyone 'transgender'. Or idealistically, do away with all the labels period and just call us people. What a novel idea!


Labels....definitions.....clinical or otherwise..... How we humans cling to them, create them and then apply them to bring order to our lives. We understand labels....categories and such. They are part of our self awareness...what we believe about ourselves in many ways I think and perhaps more importantly, how we view others.

I find it interesting that within the so called "LBGT" community, there exists activism but certainly not solidarity. In fact within the subset of the "community" ...that T subset..(which by the way = transgendered). dissent, disorganization, rivalries and disagreements exist. Why do they exist? Oftentimes it is over "labels"...and "definitions".

CD...TG...TS...Pre-op....Post-op...One has a place on the "scale" and if you do not exactly know where you reside, there is likely someone within the community (or without) who will be happy to assign you a rung. Of course there is a means test...not very scientific mind you and not based on any reliable research but again, one needs some sort of label and a rung because otherwise, there would be no "men in dresses" or "women trapped in men's bodies".

There would only be people trying to cope and come to terms with how they feel inside.

If you are out of the so called "closet" and "out" in the community I am here to tell you that it won't be long before someone...or some folk will assign you a rung on ladder of the gender hierarchy. In fact, even here...at this site, if you happen to be quite "passable" you'll soon find yourself occupying an exalted position.

Will you transcend the lowly garden variety CD and graduate to...um...(apply whatever label works for you here)

Transgender is a word...how you wish to use it is totally your decision. I have seen it used differently by different folk. Are they misinformed?....are they activists?...do they use the term to describe themselves or others?

Does it really matter?

At the end of the equation what you think of yourself is really all that matters. The Means test...that one that others will use...your friends...family...others in the greater "community" really are meaning...less.

What if your therapist were to tell you..or diagnose you as suffering from delayed gender dysphoria and give you that coveted pass to the next level?...the HRT letter? Would you suddenly be a Transexual and no longer "just a transgender or a CD"?



I have been called many things during my rather short tenure as a "whatever" and believe me when I say....none of the so called "labels" that have been applied to me make me any more self aware. They only serve to confuse me. They are, in some ways insidious because labels....once applied and internalize can drive behavior...which then drive choices...and influence thinking. I think labels can be quite dangerous actually.

Labels and definitions, clinical or otherwise can be applied in many ways but oftentimes they are used to assign us to a particular rung on the hierarchical ladder...it could be ethnic...religious...socio-economic....or...gender.

I mean...is an Italian person more Italian if they know how to make Italian food?

I can say honestly that over the past three years of my life I, at first tried...tried very hard to categorize myself...to find a suitable label...because I thought that having my own label would allow me to understand myself...my label would suddenly place me right where I needed to be on either the gender continuum or...in the hierarchy.

I even sought therapy...to assist me in determining my label....my place if you will on that gender continuum. I thought it mattered. I really thought it would help me.

I have come to realize that Transgender....or any other "label" one wishes to use is really just another word, the definition of which is unclear, subject to ongoing debate, discussion and often subjective interpretation.

We are PEOPLE....we have this thing about us...these feelings and urges.

We have choices to make in order to find peace and happiness. My issues are no greater than your issues and whatever/whoever I am to others....should not drive my own self awareness in terms of this very personal internal process.

Labels are an integral part of our society and are here to stay. If we are trying to arrive at a suitable GENERIC label, thenTransgendered is as good a label as any other to describe those who occupy a "different" rung on the gender ladder or who straddle (one way or the other and to varying degrees) of the continuum.

Apply whatever label you wish to describe me....my name is Tonya Gray and I am a person....a good person I think. I will cling to that for now as that will hopefully sustain me.

Best wishes

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I'm going to go to another analogy. Desire can be considered to be like plants that grow from seeds. Our minds are like a field where all these different types of plants are growing. Desire enters the mind through association and suggestion. At first it's just like a seed that has been planted. Depending on the nature of the field and the environment, the seed may or may not grow right away. Some may sit for a while, dormant until they start to grow. Some may grow immediately. So we have all these desires in our mind. Seeds are constantly being sown there. Some desires that are there are dormant, some have just started to grow, some are at a point where they are almost mature, and some of them are mature and we are enjoying the fruits of them.



If you keep having to use analogies to explain your idea, then you need to better construct your idea...

in this particular analogy you perfectly make my point IMHO...it is the seed that is male or female...it is not influenced by other factors...it is what it is...if the seed is female...and everything that influences it is male.... say it's watered with alcohol, and its planted in a charcoal.. it will not grow.. no matter what you do to it..thats a nice analogy for what happens to transsexuals in the world...

there has to be something that makes a person "know" permanently their own gender..i don't know what that something is..but this is all i am saying... otherwise transsexuals wouldn't transition, and IS people could be randomly assigned at birth and be conditioned to the gender the doctor picked for them..

[SweetIonis]

If you keep having to use analogies to explain your idea, then you need to better construct your idea...

Kaitlyn, I am trying to make due with my limited intelligence, my limited power to use words, and the limitations of the words themselves. We are dealing with things that you can't touch or feel. Over and above that I am clarifying my thoughts by this back and forth, so I am thankful that you are taking the time to engage with me. I will try to do my best.



in this particular analogy you perfectly make my point IMHO...it is the seed that is male or female...it is not influenced by other factors...it is what it is...if the seed is female...and everything that influences it is male.... say it's watered with alcohol, and its planted in a charcoal.. it will not grow.. no matter what you do to it..thats a nice analogy for what happens to transsexuals in the world...

On the face of it, I don't have a problem with what you have said here. However, recall that my original point was that desire along with cognition were the fundamental elements that drive what we observe as gender identity. Perhaps we are viewing the analogy differently. I view the desires to be analogous to the seeds and the garden as a whole to be what we observe as gender identity. If that's how you are viewing it, then of course we are on the same page. If not, that's fine too but perhaps we need to discuss further.



there has to be something that makes a person "know" permanently their own gender..i don't know what that something is..but this is all i am saying... otherwise transsexuals wouldn't transition, and IS people could be randomly assigned at birth and be conditioned to the gender the doctor picked for them..

If by permanently you mean in our lifetime, then I am in agreement, because nothing in this world is permanent. That aside, I agree. My point is that if you want me to try to view a fundamental gender identity that is male or female as the driving force, without giving some sort of way to differentiate between the two, then you are making it difficult for someone to conceptualize the paradigm you are purposing. I thought about it for a while the other day, and when I tried to differentiate I was back at the point of desire, which again, leads me to believe that desire is the more fundamental element. That's my point.

[Josie M]

Getting in this late but it's an interesting discussion. I don't know how I would answer except to say that my full range of expressing myself as I am seems to require both a male and female persona. I don't get the opportunity to express myself as Josie near as often as I'd like but I would not want to give up my male side completely either. Being me, as I am, requires both.

I've never thought of myself as transgendered because I always assumed that it more correctly applied to transexuals. Maybe that's incorrect.

I am who I am, whatever label applies is OK with me :)

[sara.s]

Trust me when i say I have immense respect for TG's and TS's. My favorite TS is Aprilrain and my favorite TG/TS is Sylvia. But i really take offense when a general claim is made that all CD's are transgendered. For me, i dress like once a month, generally to go out to TG meetings. (I have whole apartment to myself and i can wear panties or whatever whenever i want but I DONT even wear panties, unless i plan to go for TG meetings.) I even find it strange why people see me as female as address me as she/Sara, when dressed, although addressing me otherwise as he/<malename> would be ridiculous in public. I really take offense to all you self-appointed definition/behavior experts making stupid ignorant claims.

PS: And by the term transgendered, I mean a person whose self identity is of female, not the "umbrella" term used for LGBT definitions.

[ReineD]

I even find it strange why people see me as female as address me as she/Sara, when dressed, although addressing me otherwise as he/<malename> would be ridiculous in public. I really take offense to all you self-appointed definition/behavior experts making stupid ignorant claims.

Sara, if you don't mind the question, when you go to the support meetings, do you present as a woman like your avatar, or are you more like a guy wearing a skirt, without makeup, forms, wigs, etc. And if your avatar is you and you don't identify even partially with any aspect of the feminine gender, then why do you present this way?

Also, just so you know, TG does not mean being a transsexual who is a woman in a man's body. "Trans" means to cross, and Trans-gender means crossing a gender boundary in some way, even if it is an occasional desire to present as a gender that is opposite than birth, even if the predominant gender identity is male.

[sara.s]

Sara, if you don't mind the question, when you go to the support meetings, do you present as a woman like your avatar, or are you more like a guy wearing a skirt, without makeup, forms, wigs, etc. And if your avatar is you and you don't identify even partially with any aspect of the feminine gender, then why do you present this way?


Of coarse, my avatar is me, although i wear a different brown wig! :) I find it fun and adventurous to present myself like my avatar and for unknown reason i am drawn to it. I am also big fan of other costume events like Halloween, Cosplay and Crossplay (although i hate video games...) Just bcos i dressup as one of those anime characters for an event doesn't make a trans-anime for my entire life, or does it? Last Halloween i was in a vampire makeup, does that make me want to suck blood all the time?



Also, just so you know, TG does not mean being a transsexual who is a woman in a man's body. "Trans" means to cross, and Trans-gender means crossing a gender boundary in some way, even if it is an occasional desire to present as a gender that is opposite than birth, even if the predominant gender identity is male.


The definition of TG you are presenting is the umbrella term popularized by the LGBT movement. Just search for transgender in google and you will see that TG means a person whose self identification lies with other gender. For your reference: http://www.google.com/search?&q=transgender+definition
Also search for transgendered definition and you will see the same thing.

[ReineD]

Just bcos i dressup as one of those anime characters for an event doesn't make a trans-anime for my entire life, or does it?

No. But here you said, "for my entire life". The act of crossing is not necessarily permanent. Think of the word, "transcend". To go beyond. It can be just sometimes for a crossdresser, or it can be all the time for a transsexual. (Well actually, a transsexual does not "cross" anything in my view, since she is already a woman.) But, if your feminine presentation is no more than a costume like you do for cosplay or halloween, then I see your point. It's like a grown-up version of playing dress-up as a child, and that's OK too. :)



Just search for transgender in google and you will see that TG means a person whose self identification lies with other gender. For your reference: http://www.google.com/search?&q=transgender+definition

The first definition in your link is the google summary definition that is designed to be a brief as possible: "Adjective: Identified with a gender other than the biological one." But, directly underneath this definition you see four links to further explanations. One of the links is the definition from Wikipedia that I use all the time. It says, "a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving tendencies to vary from culturally conventional gender roles". The Widipedia article is more in-depth and it draws its content from 160 sources listed at the bottom of it, from experts in the field. The other three links directly under the google one-line definition lead to web pages that also have one-line definitions and that don't cite their sources.

I'm just saying, you should you get your information from sources that discuss this in more than one or two lines and not from the quick and easy web sites, simply because the issue is so complex.

[sara.s]

But, if your feminine presentation is no more than a costume like you do for cosplay or halloween, then I see your point. It's like a grown-up version of playing dress-up as a child, and that's OK too. :)

Yes, crossdressing for me is only about dressup.



The first definition in your link is the google summary definition that is designed to be a brief as possible: "Adjective: Identified with a gender other than the biological one." But, directly underneath this definition you see four links to further explanations. One of the links is the definition from Wikipedia that I use all the time. It says, "a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving tendencies to vary from culturally conventional gender roles". The Widipedia article is more in-depth and it draws its content from 160 sources listed at the bottom of it, from experts in the field. The other three links directly under the google one-line definition lead to web pages that also have one-line definitions and that don't cite their sources.

I'm just saying, you should you get your information from sources that discuss this in more than one or two lines and not from the quick and easy web sites, simply because the issue is so complex.

The wikipedia article then explains in the next line, which is not what I am.
Transgender is the state of one's "gender identity" (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both) not matching one's "assigned sex" (identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex).

Some definitions say it is an umbrella term, while some definitions say it is the self-identity issue and the debate on this can go on endlessly. On some sites, both definitions are provided. I don't dispute to all the several definitions as in my first post.

But what i am interested to point out is that "All crossdressers self-identity does not change just because they are crossdressed." I presume this was the OP's original intended question (based on her comments in this thread).

[ReineD]

Yes, crossdressing for me is only about dressup.


But what i am interested to point out is that "All crossdressers self-identity does not change just because they are crossdressed."

Barring the staunch fetishists, most CDs who present as women, do so in order to feel feminine. This is crossing a gender boundary. But, you CD because you enjoy wearing costumes. I assume that you do not feel the slightest bit feminine when you dress and this is perfectly valid. But I think if you surveyed the members here, you'd find that you are one of the few who feel this way.

When Ionis initially asked her question, I assume she meant the majority of the CDs and not the exceptions. And since the majority of the CDs in this forum present as women in order to get in touch with their femininity, they do cross gender boundaries even if they wish to feel feminine only a few times per month.

This is beside the point, but I also assume Ionis did not mean the men who wear skirts while presenting as men ... I'm not sure this would be considered CDing as we understand it in this forum. But, this is for another discussion perhaps.

We need to find better terms for all the different types of crossdressers. I agree that some do not fall within the TG spectrum, although the majority of the CDers here do, based on the interests they describe in their posts, and their pics in the Gallery.

So Sara, you're one of the few who falls outside the box. (You present fully as a woman yet you do not feel feminine). But, we shouldn't say the box doesn't exist just because you fall outside of it. :)

[LeaP]

" I find it fun and adventurous to present myself like my avatar and for unknown reason i am drawn to it. I am also big fan of other costume events like Halloween, Cosplay and Crossplay ..."

I understand your general point about (in essence) activity (TG behavior) vs identity. Still, your posts at least hint at something beyond mere entertainment. It's in the combination of your statement that you are "drawn" to CD'ing for some "unknown reason," coupled with the frequency of your CD'ing. It's not definitive, of course, but appears to suggest something more is at work here.

Lea

[sara.s]

And since the majority of the CDs in this forum present as women in order to get in touch with their femininity, they do cross gender boundaries even if they wish to feel feminine only a few times per month.

.... But, we shouldn't say the box doesn't exist just because you fall outside of it. :)

That clarifies a lot of questions. I was always wondering why cd'ers never discussed men's clothes or costumes or cosplay here. Why anyone would want to wear bra/panties/cami underneath and what difference does it make since nobody would see it anyway, or why cd'ing for long hours with bra and all tight stuff. But we should take a survey or something to see why people cross dress.

[Inna]

Miss controversy here!

Seams to me Sara, you are repulsed and scared to have anything with "T" describing your, self and /or activities. Ever thought why?

If I like the look of coins and appreciate their designs then I am just an average person with a sense of esthetics and design. However if I start collecting them, even if it is extremely selective and sporadic then I have become a coin collector, and will soon be rolled into a label of amateur numismatic. Even though I am truly just about coins, they them selves do fall under general umbrella of currency, hence the numismatic umbrella term. Nothing to it, would I get upset about the term, I truly don't think so.....................unless the term would in my mind be a derogatory and classify me as an outcast of society then surely I would withstand it with passion :)

[Amanda22]

I'm definitely transgendered. I'm a crossdresser, FWIW.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Kaitlyn, I am trying to make due with my limited intelligence, my limited power to use words, and the limitations of the words themselves. We are dealing with things that you can't touch or feel. ............

My point is that if you want me to try to view a fundamental gender identity that is male or female as the driving force, without giving some sort of way to differentiate between the two, then you are making it difficult for someone to conceptualize the paradigm you are purposing. I thought about it for a while the other day, and when I tried to differentiate I was back at the point of desire, which again, leads me to believe that desire is the more fundamental element. That's my point.

Hey I don't even write in sentences !!!

You just nailed it...you can't conceptualize it...... that the hard truth.. there is no guide for you... how do you "know" what you "know" about anything??
so i am suggesting you will never know..

It is not necessary to "know" you are female to "be" female...the seed does not have to know its a seed to be a seed

I thought i "knew" that i was male...genetically i am, i was born with male parts..i learned to thrive in a male role (for the most part)...i compartmentalized my gender thoughts...ALL of my alone time was spent thinking of my femaleness..but when the lights came on and the show started, it was all guy..

but pretending is hard, i got tired of it..it started to wear me down. over a long drawn out time of confusion and anxiety and worse...i wished it would all just stop.... I tried to "be" male by "feeling" male.. but it was like the inputs i was getting did not connect i I couldnt stand being around people anymore...every personal interaction made me more and more trapped and depressed....

the feeling that i was trapped and without hope DROVE me to consider that my lifetime obsession with crossgender behavior was my COPING with this existential, impossible problem...crossdressing was a dead end..
i finally accepted what i was...even accepting it took alot of time..i was so afraid i made up excuses and i ended up feeling worse and worse...
and finally i acted...
and then when i acted, when i transitioned, all those feelings stopped...the more i went down the path, the better i felt..the instant i started HRT i felt better...i knew it was right for me...i just knew..i'm sorry to say that it doesnt get better than that...there was no specific feeling ,it wasn't about makeup, clothes or anything specific...thats why i tend to HATE the COGIATI tests and things that lead people down silly paths...so you like baths?? hmm...maybe you are more female than male!! arghh!!

post srs, the dead feeling totally went away..the idea of switching genders seems incomprehensible to me....why would anybody do that?..LOL...think about that for a second..it feels to me now that i have always been this way...and what i've found is that its challenging to care about myself!! it's sad to me that i had to give up so much, but its inconceivable to me that i could be male..

in the end, the only way i found to answer the question was to do it...
this experience that i had is very consistent with many transsexuals that lived male lives for any period of time..

[ReineD]

but pretending is hard, i got tired of it..it started to wear me down. over a long drawn out time of confusion and anxiety and worse...i wished it would all just stop.... I tried to "be" male by "feeling" male.. but it was like the inputs i was getting did not connect i I couldnt stand being around people anymore...every personal interaction made me more and more trapped and depressed....

I'm glad you wrote this.

I know there are some late-onset TSs who realize who they are through having believed they were CDers. So, when GG SOs (or maybe even some CDs) read about such experiences, they may well wonder when their own husbands will realize they are TS, even when the husbands adamantly proclaim to be CDs. And so it's not a stretch for people who read such posts to file away at the back of their minds the belief that it is only a question of time before any CD will realize she is TS.

But your words above explain a major difference between a CD who doesn't know she is TS, and a CD who doesn't have it in his stars to want to transition. You describe a deep dissatisfaction over being male, a dead feeling inside even before you knew you were TS. I guess this describes the dysphoria, which was always there even though you were not aware what it was?

I should think that no matter how enticing and exciting it is for some CDs to imagine themselves female, if they don't experience that dead, sick feeling inside over being male, then they are not TS.

[Rianna Humble]

You describe a deep dissatisfaction over being male, a dead feeling inside even before you knew you were TS. I guess this describes the dysphoria, which was always there even though you were not aware what it was?

I should think that no matter how enticing and exciting it is for some CDs to imagine themselves female, if they don't experience that dead, sick feeling inside over being male, then they are not TS.

I think that you have fairly well crystallised something of what those of us who either realise or admit later on in life that we are TS go through. It probably is a good description of the effects of the dysphoria.

Curiously in my case, the sick feeling grew stronger around people who didn't have any idea that I was any form of TG than around those who (as my psy put it) knew I was only pretending to be male. Perhaps that's because I didn't have to try so hard with the second group.

[SweetIonis]

and then when i acted, when i transitioned, all those feelings stopped...the more i went down the path, the better i felt..the instant i started HRT i felt better...i knew it was right for me...i just knew..i'm sorry to say that it doesnt get better than that..

post srs, the dead feeling totally went away..the idea of switching genders seems incomprehensible to me....why would anybody do that?..LOL...think about that for a second..it feels to me now that i have always been this way...and what i've found is that its challenging to care about myself!! it's sad to me that i had to give up so much, but its inconceivable to me that i could be male..

in the end, the only way i found to answer the question was to do it...


Well Kaitlyn, all's well that end's well. For me, I have accepted that my life is to be a struggle in this regard. I have tried to share with you some of my feelings, but believe me what I have struggled with in this respect is unimaginable. I have spent MANY A NIGHT BEING UP ALL NIGHT STRUGGLING! That's no exaggeration. All throughout the day my mind is constantly wandering, imagining what I could be doing. I'm constantly bringing it back. That's everyday all the time. If I dared to tell someone how I feel, I would be certainly ridiculed. Even here on this site that is probably the case by my even saying a little bit about how I feel. But that's fine. My life has been always about one struggle or another, so I'm used to it. As you say, a seed will be a seed. In a similar way I will be what I am.

[Sherry Lynn]

When asked, I usually reply "I'm a top."

[Leslie Iz]

I crossdress to feel and be feminine because that is who I am so I would say yes in my circumstance only. That panty size does not fit all as I can read from other posts.

[sometimes_miss]

I should think that no matter how enticing and exciting it is for some CDs to imagine themselves female, if they don't experience that dead, sick feeling inside over being male, then they are not TS.
I've only discussed it at length with one transsexual; and she didn't quite put it that way; it wasn't that being a man was so awful, simply that it wasn't 'right'. What I guess bothered me a little was that she had felt very much as I did when she was younger, but came to a different conclusion than I did about why it doesn't feel 'right'. I still wonder if she was right, and I was wrong. But I guess there's room in the world for both of our decisions.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I've only discussed it at length with one transsexual; and she didn't quite put it that way; it wasn't that being a man was so awful, simply that it wasn't 'right'. What I guess bothered me a little was that she had felt very much as I did when she was younger, but came to a different conclusion than I did about why it doesn't feel 'right'. I still wonder if she was right, and I was wrong. But I guess there's room in the world for both of our decisions.

Great observation i think!

Can i add that it seems the feeling of being not right is the CAUSE of the terrible sickening feeling... i never expected to have that feeling.. even tho i never felt right, i buried the feeling..

sometimes i wonder whether a persons view on this topic is more shaped by what they actually do about the feeling rather than the feeling itself...
it took that sickening feeling to make me admit that i didnt feel right and to do something about it...it took outside events to start the ball rolling...

i've noticed over the years that for many people, they don't wait for that sickening feeling..they have a good view of themselves and the confidence in their own thinking to move forward prior to really suffering...

btw..
there is room for both decisions, but i bet she isn't wondering anymore about herself, and you are...thats a big part of the choice..how much can you stand wondering?..

[ReineD]

i've noticed over the years that for many people, they don't wait for that sickening feeling..they have a good view of themselves and the confidence in their own thinking to move forward prior to really suffering...

So, how does a CD, who is in the throes of a pink fog (the sheer excitement and unparalleled bliss of being the beautiful woman), know the difference between pink fog and true gender dysphoria?

Many CDs maintain a balance, but some cannot and sometimes life circumstances do contribute to this pink fog: he is newly divorced and the lid pops off the pressure cooker after having been screwed on tightly all those years, or there is high libido with an active sexual component to the CDing, or he lives in the proximity of an active T club where all is magic and wonder every Saturday night with admirers and other T girls falling at her feet. My description is a bit dramatic, but I write this to illustrate that sometimes it is not gender dysphoria that causes a euphoric feeling over the dressing. In such a case if he feels empty while in guy mode, might it not be in the same way that a compulsive gambler feels when he is not experiencing the heightened excitement of gambling?

I've read in this forum stories of deep regret among some CDers who were caught up in such pink fogs and who lost relationships and families over it, only to discover after years of unlimited dressing that the excitement did finally wear off for them.

How does such a CD know whether he is TS or experiencing a strong pink fog? The mind is a powerful thing, especially when all the feel-good chemicals that are released by the CDing (for some people) kick in.

This is a difficult question to answer.

[SweetIonis]

If you keep having to use analogies to explain your idea, then you need to better construct your idea...

Kaitlyn, I'm going to take another bite of that apple. I thought about it, and what I couldn't quite put my finger on was how the whole thing was integrating. Then I dawned on me that I was missing the key piece of the puzzle. So I am going to put forward an enhanced model for examining gender identity that I feel can account for many of the problems that people are having when they try to talk about it.

I would like to purpose is a paradigm in which three fundamental forces combine to form what we observe as gender identity. The first is cognition itself, i.e. the sentient being. The second is an ego attributed by desire. The third is time.

The first item, cognition, is merely the state of being aware. It is the sentient being that is experiencing the force of the other two elements. It is the thing that is doing the desiring. The second is a force acting on cognition that is dictating various conceptions of "I am this" and "I am that". It is the concept of the nature, quality if you will, that cognition feels about itself as it engaged is enjoying various types of desires. As an example, someone may feel a strong desire to draw and paint pictures and may come to feel that I am an artist. The third item is the force of time. It's activity is felt through confining cognition to the present, by moving it from the past into the future. It imposes change on cognition and integrates matter into a physiology that cognition experiences as it's physical body and well as the external objects that form the environment in which cognition is operating. It performs the function of disintegrating this physiology as well as the environment in which cognition is operating. It forces the condition of birth on cognition as well as death. It builds and destroys empires, even species. All of us are under it's influence and it can be seen in the unstoppable phenomenon of aging and ultimately death. Despite our best efforts we cannot thwart it's advance.

So we have these three fundamental elements and they combine to form what we experience as gender identity. Gender identity is nothing more than the specific case of ego that is associated with the concepts of masculinity and femininity. These two concepts of gender identity have various desires that are associated with them. As an example, when cognition experiences strong desires that require a vagina to fulfill, that is an indication of feminine gender identity. When cognition experiences strong desires that require a penis to fulfill, that is an indication of male gender identity. There are many desires that go into the formulation of gender identity, and the ones that I have just given are only examples, although prominent ones. When the preponderance of these desires leans toward either the masculine or feminine concepts we say that the person has a male or female gender identity respectively. Although these two types of gender identity exist at different ends of a spectrum, because of the wide variance of the nature of the desires that may be acting on cognition, there can be a mixture of these two fundamental types. When this happens, cognition will feel a mixed notion of gender identity and can experience periods when one or the other is prominent or if not prominent one may be exerting an influence in a particular instance or circumstance.

Time is an important element in all of this. Because only time is capable of arranging the circumstances such that the desires act in conjunction to form a coherent picture of gender identity. Cognition experiences many types of desires. For the experience of gender identity, certain desires have to be acting in conjunction at a particular time. For example if a person experiences a strong desire to cook, with the notion of making someone who is the object of their sex desire happy so that the person will be in a mood to enjoy sexual intercourse, that is a manifestation of gender identity. In this case the desire for sex, combines with the desire to cook to form a coherent picture. If however the person is cooking because their mother is coming for a visit, that is not NECESSARILY a manifestation of gender identity. Furthermore time has to provide the circumstances for that activity to take place. Each person has to have the time available to meet for a meal. They have to have the means to get to the place where they are to eat. The person preparing the meal has to have the means to obtain the ingredients and the necessary instruments for preparing the meal. And furthermore they have to be in the mood for the interaction to be successful. Otherwise the activity will be a flop. The more cognition is engaged in activity, SUCCESSFULLY BACKED BY TIME, that is associated with a particular flavor of gender identity, the stronger that desire will become. This is important, because in the future if there is an endeavor to do something which contradicts this notion, depending on the strength that the desire has acquired, there will be a corresponding force of resistance to the activity that runs counter to it.

How this relates practically to gender identity is that a person has various desires within their mind. These desires have to act in conjunction to form a coherent picture of gender identity. Time is the only force that is capable of integrating these desires in such a fashion, and not only that, it is the only force capable of causing the desires to grow into a force that is formidable enough to induce cognition to act on them in the first place.

We have discussed before how desires are present within the mind in the form of seeds, plants that have just started to grow, plants that are almost mature, and plants that are mature. Time is the mechanism that causes this inception, growth, and maturation process to take place. Human endeavor alone cannot suffice to cause the necessary growth process as well as integration to take place. However, when human endeavor is backed by time, then the necessary pieces will fall into place to form a male or female gender identity. But if the same endeavor is not backed by the force of time, then all of the endeavor will be fruitless. This is so because it is time that has provided the circumstances that has caused the various desires to acquire a relative strength in the first place. Without it's sanction the endeavor will simply not be successful in providing the sufficient food for the proper desires to grow to form a coherent picture of gender identity. For instance, you can put a dress on someone and repeatedly tell them that they are a girl, but if the circumstances for all the other desires that go into making female gender identity to do not take place, there will be no result, except for havoc.

With regards to the question of is it possible to change gender identity, the answer is yes, but it is not possible through human endeavor alone. When it is time for it to change, it can and it will change, DESPITE HOW COMFORTABLE OR UNCOMFORTABLE that may make ourselves and others around us. No amount of human endeavor, praise, ridicule, violent coercion, or torture will be able to stop it. It will be so and ourselves and as well as those we come in contact with can only tolerate it and make the necessary adjustments to accommodate it's presence.


So, how does a CD, who is in the throes of a pink fog (the sheer excitement and unparalleled bliss of being the beautiful woman), know the difference between pink fog and true gender dysphoria?

This is a difficult question to answer.

I would submit that what is termed "pink fog" is simply a localized manifestation of female gender identity confined to a particular time and possibly type of behavior.

With regards to how does one know, ONLY THE INDIVIDUAL will only be able to answer that question over the course of time. Others will not be able to determine it for the individual either a priori or posteriori.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

So, how does a CD, who is in the throes of a pink fog (the sheer excitement and unparalleled bliss of being the beautiful woman), know the difference between pink fog and true gender dysphoria?

Many CDs maintain a balance, but some cannot and sometimes life circumstances do contribute to this pink fog: he is newly divorced and the lid pops off the pressure cooker after having been screwed on tightly all those years, or there is high libido with an active sexual component to the CDing, or he lives in the proximity of an active T club where all is magic and wonder every Saturday night with admirers and other T girls falling at her feet. My description is a bit dramatic, but I write this to illustrate that sometimes it is not gender dysphoria that causes a euphoric feeling over the dressing. In such a case if he feels empty while in guy mode, might it not be in the same way that a compulsive gambler feels when he is not experiencing the heightened excitement of gambling?

I've read in this forum stories of deep regret among some CDers who were caught up in such pink fogs and who lost relationships and families over it, only to discover after years of unlimited dressing that the excitement did finally wear off for them.

How does such a CD know whether he is TS or experiencing a strong pink fog? The mind is a powerful thing, especially when all the feel-good chemicals that are released by the CDing (for some people) kick in.

This is a difficult question to answer.

I wish i knew what to say... I totally get what you are saying from the SO side of the equation... I am a pragmatist. If a person is saying "i'm a crossdresser", i know from real life experience that the person may be dressing for various reasons. and that those reasons very often carry huge loads of emotional and psychological baggage... it is very hard for the person to sort through it, and it must be incredibly difficult for a SO to sort through it..honesty cannot be assumed. the person is often not being honest with themselves. basically it sucks for the SO..but good loving relationships are about helping each through difficult times...

Like all things in life, its about what you do about it... and to me, communication is key.. and the SO's best bet is to know the landscape (which Reine you do!), and then attune him or herself to your SO's communication..and do your best to read the landscape and act accordingly... guys that spend their time are home in pink fogs enjoying the feel of clothes are very unlikely to be transsexuals...it may drive you nuts as SO, but going to far is not an issue..but people that are constantly wanting to fly "en femme", have broad social lives, and feel a need to tell everybody they crossdress are in the zone of someone that may end up having their "bell rung".. no matter how much they protest..its a possibility...that's kinda just the way it is...

as SO you can kind of tell,... i raised the intimate knowledge my wife had that I was "not there"...it wasnt just a sex thing... she couldn't connect with me...she knew before i did!!!!!!
I was losing my own ability to connect because i wasn't male..i was fighting so hard to "make it"... as a SO if you start to get this feeling, this is another data point...its not proof of anything, but its something that must be explored..

i don't have alot of sympathy for the person that rides the crossdressing/euphoria train all the way to blowing up their lives... if a guy wants to CD more than he wants to be married, that's kinda all you need to know..its easy to get addicted to escape...pot, booze, gambling etc... hey i'm addicted right now to posting on the internet!!
if he then moves on to transition, there is way to much information and support out there..people that go through it that help, therapists, tsroadmap..i saw that guy on Dateline the other night who transitioned and regretted, he seemed like a flimflam guy to me... very "off" and his assertion that HRT caused him to transition was laughable...i think its a disservice to have him on TV..that's not saying mistakes are not made..but most people that go through channels don't publicly transition as a mistake...and most people that stop transition do so because of outside factors and are still transsexuals..

all IMHO opinion of course..

[Sophie86]

This is a difficult question to answer.

This is something that's recently started to bother me. A few months ago, I was reading on a TS site, and there was a link to an article (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html) on post-op regret. It gave a few very high profile examples--Renee Richards & Charles King--and suggested that late transition carried a not-insignificant risk of dissatisfaction. The article made me question whether I was doing the right thing by uncritically supporting those who expressed a desire to transition. The night I read it was the day before an online acquaintance of mine was due to go into surgery, and I had a moment of panic thinking of how much encouragement I had given her. What if she went through the surgery, and then decided, like Richards and King, that she had ruined her life? Should I feel partly responsible because I never offered a word of caution? When we first began talking, she had said that she didn't experience any dysphoria with her genitalia and couldn't imagine ever wanting to go through surgery. A year and a few months later, there she was about to have surgery. After reading that article, I was suddenly scared for her.

I've thought about it a lot since then, and decided that I have no business putting doubts into another person's mind. They have to go through counseling in order to move on to SRS, and it's the therapist's job to bring up these concerns and make sure that the person is right for surgery. If the person is my friend, I'm just going to support them and hope they've made the right decision.

For myself, I know what the pink fog is and what it means for me. I've done enough introspection on the question to know that transition would not be the right decision for me. That's all I can say about it.

[ReineD]

Ionis, Kaitlyn, & Sophie, thank you for your answers. :hugs:

As you say, ultimately it is the person who determines what is best for them. I agree this is not something that can be categorized as if we can come up with some sort of diagnostic criteria. The issue is way too deep for this. I still wanted to ask though, just to bring forth the possibility there are other reasons than GID that would make a CD believe he might want to become a woman. And I guess the word "become" is key, rather than "align" the physical body with an internal female gender.

Kaitlyn, as a GG it is true that I'm looking at it from a wife's point of view and your point is excellent. She will know or rather she will FEEL the disconnect in the bedroom. Her instincts will tell her. I don't think you can get any more basic than this. But, sometimes such a wife will feel a disconnect even if her husband isn't TS. I've also read many threads here from CDs (it's hard to say whether they are married or not) who shared having reached sexual highs that describe autogynephilia. These CDs described a level of eroticism reached alone, through masturbation, that nothing could compare to not even having sex with their wives. So I suppose there would be a disconnect in such a marriage as well and it may look to the wife as if her husband just has low libido. She might feel as if he is TS, even though he insists otherwise. So ... how does SHE know that he is not TS and he is instead autogynephilic? It's complicated, and at this point maybe it doesn't matter. Many couples have very deep bonds without having them strengthened through sex.

That said, I also asked the question from the POV of a CD. Not all CDs who are experiencing such intense desires to be women are married. I rather think that by the time the desires are so intense, the couple might be divorced. So how does HE know whether he is in a pink fog or not and you're right, only he can determine this, although I can't imagine how. In your post above, you described a deep, sick feeling of emptiness associated with being male, and maybe there is a way to tell the difference between the GID and just an emptiness that comes from not experiencing the excitement of being dressed, or imagining a life of bliss living as the "wife" with a husband. Hopefully the medical people who see a person through the steps toward transition can pick up on this, if the CD is not able to.

[bridgetta]

i would say yes.. they are.. but.... i think that decoration is not really gender... I like to shave my body... I LIKE how it feels.. it makes me feel young.. I think that a lot of crossdressing for me has to do with health and life... men dont look in the mirror.. they are dirty and hairy... grooming is sort of femme in this soceity... i wonder WHY woman have longer life expentency than man... i think it has to do with this approach to the body and its maintenence,,, its definetly a part of the experience that i value and dont want to give up.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

to reine, i think autogynephila is a canard...it is bad science... the reason i say this is twofold.. the theory makes assertions and assumptions that have no basis in anything..it undermines the credibility of it...its based on very little science...
secondly, it covers up the very real issue that lots of transsexuals develop a sexuality that includes being transsexual or gender variant behavior..calling it autogynephilia and inventing reasons why it exists misses the point... its more productive to simply understand it is a fact that a transsexual is often turned on by "transsexual thoughts".. a crossdresser is turned on by these thoughts as well... its just a fact...only the person having the thoughts can really tell the difference...its not helpful information for someone trying to better understand the possibilities for their spouse ...

in my earlier years, i was told sexually pleasurable thoughts precluded a "diagnosis of TS"..i don't think GID quite existed in those days... i was told to not feel guilty and enjoy being a crossdresser...that was bad advice...it goes both ways..mistakes are made in life.

Twenty years later i ignored that advice and went through with it, and i'll keep harping on it...i had doubts right up to the end..i had many ideas in my head about how i was doing a wrong thing...but it worked...all the doubt vanished... life is not perfect, i am faced with my 46 years of maleness all the time...but so what...it's not my fault that renee richards couldn't feel like a woman... i read what she says and all i can say is she is nothing like me...i can't help it that charles kane is a bit of an impulsive loon...
the only information this brings to the table is that OF COURSE its possible to regret this HUGE LIFE change.....but the VAST MAJORITY of transitioners DO NOT regret it...i think that's important...if i go for life saving surgery, i'm not turning it down because it might not work..


also reine once that disconnect happens, isnt it is very uncommon to get it back?...its possible, but when a loving wife "falls out of love" thats a big deal.. when the love is there, lots of things can be forgiven and tolerated... so again...i'm a pragmatist...if you are still in love, then go for it...get in there and prod and poke...you have the right if you are married to someone with this issue...but in the end, you can never control what you find...lots of people put fears under the rug...it takes alot of courage for a spouse to try to deal with this...it sucks to wonder if there is something in his life bigger than the marriage.... if out of love...then to me that's it...he's not there...its always nice to know why, but its usually better to just move on..ending marriage hurts, but extending it and knowing it will end is worse imho...

[Kaz]

This has been a fantastic thread and still is... I am amazed at the level of intellectual debate, even if it is at the experience/belief system level. I think that the more we look for some unifying theory for cross-dressing the less helpful it gets. It has been the same in physics for decades. I increasingly fantasise about being w woman in a highly aroused, intense sexual encounter... my head has been everywhere! But does that mean that I should go for GRS? I am sorry, but I am a grandfather and I have relationships that are so so important for me.. I am not that old yet! So I have a big role to fulfil in the lives of my family. And I have lived most of my life as this guy... I know how it works.

If I were to to sex-change now... it may satisfy some aspects of my life, but I would lose so many others, and as we get older the risks get bigger. There are members like Inna who has taken that step and I am in awe of her, partly because I am not that 'brave'... So to Kaitlyn... I love the arguements you present... I can empathise, but I am just not into this black and white theory that some people want to dictate. The bulk of the scientific evidence is based on flawed work from years ago, and is based on the premise that CDing and/or gender dysphoria is a medical condition... I think the medical profession have finally accepted that the 'gay world' is not a medical condition... it is only recently in the UK that they have stopped treating pregnancy as a medical condition and regarding a pregnant mum as a patient!

[ReineD]

...if you are still in love, then go for it...get in there and prod and poke...you have the right if you are married to someone with this issue...but in the end, you can never control what you find...

Exactly. Although it would be nice for a wife to understand what is going on if there is a sexual disconnect with her husband, ultimately she can do nothing about it. Even he turns out to not be TS and her instincts are correct, it won't do any good. She can't "make" him recognize this, she can't convince him that he should turn his sexual focus back on to her.

The same is true in marriages where one partner has a fetish (insert any fetish you like ... bondage, latex), while the other partner doesn't. The fetish partner who may have reached a point where he cannot orgasm without the fetish object or the scene will be reluctant to abandon what gives him the sexual pleasure, and he may not feel as if there is any problem at all, while the non-fetish partner will feel an emptiness in their love making, since for her the lovemaking is more about the physical, psychological, and spiritual union between two people. Such a couple are simply no longer sexually compatible and it could spell the end of their relationship. The only way to change this, if the fetish partner wants a mutually satisfying sexual relationship with his partner, would be for him to willingly takes steps to rewire his sexual urges, through seeing a sex therapist perhaps. I believe such situations are rather common. But, I digress.

Back to pink fog vs. GID, I do think this discussion is more valuable to the CD than to the wife, since he is the person who ultimately steers his course no matter how well the wife understands what is going on.



i think autogynephila is a canard...it is bad science... the reason i say this is twofold.. the theory makes assertions and assumptions that have no basis in anything..it undermines the credibility of it...its based on very little science...
secondly, it covers up the very real issue that lots of transsexuals develop a sexuality that includes being transsexual or gender variant behavior..calling it autogynephilia and inventing reasons why it exists misses the point...

I also disagree with Blanchard's use of autogynephilia as a motive for transition. This seems rather simplistic. But I do think AGP is a real condition that describes what many CDs experience. I can't tell you how many posts I've read here from CDs who have said that nothing comes close to fulfilling them sexually as much as the image of themselves as a woman and who either engage in autoeroticism or they seek meetings with faceless men. The people who post these things may well be fetish CDs (I have no way of knowing), and I don't know if they are married or not, but what they describe is AGP and in these instances it is isolated from any desire to transition. Or, perhaps the intensity of feelings that AGP produces might convince these CDs they want to be women.



.
its more productive to simply understand it is a fact that a transsexual is often turned on by "transsexual thoughts".. a crossdresser is turned on by these thoughts as well... its just a fact...only the person having the thoughts can really tell the difference...its not helpful information for someone trying to better understand the possibilities for their spouse ...

Again, although as a GG I am interested in this and there are wives who experience a sexual disconnect who would like to gain a better understanding, I agree with you. I think it is more useful for the CDs (not their wives) who may fit the patterns described above to realize there are other factors that may cause them to believe they want to transition other than GID.

This is why I was interested in your description of what true GID feels like, as opposed to just an emptiness a CD might feel when he is not experiencing the excitement of dressing.

[Asche]

I only just now started reading this thread. I avoided it at first, because I assumed it would be more heat than light, but like Kaz, I've been pleasantly surprised at the level of discourse. On the other hand, an awful lot of it is going right over my head. In particular, the whole Gender Identity thing is something I've never gotten the hang of, and I have to take people's descriptions of their own gender identity on faith.

So I'll tell a bit about myself and then ask: do you think I'm transgendered? (Cf. Feynman's question to the philosophy class: "Is a brick an essential object?")

I've never thought of myself as anything but male, mainly because I have a male body. Never thought of myself as an "X trapped in a man's body." I have some concept of what people mean by "masculinity," but have never understood why having or not having it is such a big deal.

I wear skirts nearly all the time, except at work. The skirts vary from plain denim to frilly feminine, depending on my mood and the venue, and I wear them with tights or knee socks and often with petticoats. No women's tops or dresses, but mostly because I haven't found or figured out how to make dresses or tops that I like the look of. I don't feel like I'm doing this to "feel female," whatever that means. I just like it, I feel better when I'm wearing skirts, and whenever I wear trousers, I feel like I'm having to force myself to do it.

I've always liked skirts and dresses and secretly envied girls because they got to wear them. I think if I'd had older sisters, or lived in a time and place where people wouldn't have gone berzerk over it, I would have been one of those boys who want to wear the princess or ballerina costume at dress-up time in nursery school.

I don't use a female name, don't wear makeup, breast forms, wigs, or heels, and I don't adjust my style or otherwise try to make people think I'm female.

So, what do you all say: am I transgendered?

[Sophie86]

I agree this is not something that can be categorized as if we can come up with some sort of diagnostic criteria.

I can tell you a little more about my own introspection, and what led me to the conclusion that I'm not TS.


Prior to puberty I didn't crossdress, and had no desire at all to present as a woman. I did like to wear my hair long, but on the occasions when I was mistaken for a girl, I felt embarrassment rather than pleasure.

It was during puberty that I started to crossdress, and it was always accompanied by sexual excitement and gratification. That pattern continued into my twenties.

In my 30s and early 40s I went for long stretches of time without experiencing any desire to dress. I wasn't trying to suppress the desire. On the contrary, I had finally given myself permission to enjoy dressing up, but the desire just dried up on its own.


When the desire came back, it wasn't accompanied by the same sexual desires I had experienced in the past, but I don't consider that to be sufficient evidence that I am TS. I think that there were always other things besides sex that I got from the experience, but my sex drive was so strong that it overrode everything else. Now that my sex drive has waned somewhat, I can enjoy those other things without distraction. There is still a certain amount of sexual excitement, but it is low-key. It's something that can be enjoyed for its own sake without having to lead anywhere. Necessarily.

I've come to recognize that there is a difference between wanting to be feminine and wanting to be female. Being feminine creates a pleasurable emotional experience for me. Being female would destroy that experience. The things that I consider fun now would become chores. By dressing up, I get to enjoy what I see as the positive aspects of being female without the negatives.

Putting all that together, I don't think I fit the profile of a transsexual. I think a transsexual would manifest more gender dysphoria at an early age. I don't think a transsexual would be able to go for years at a time without feeling feeling any desire to present as female. Although I believe that a TS would experience a connection dressing and sexual urges, I wouldn't expect their dressing to always be accompanied by sex like mine was. A TS would also be more interested in having the complete experience of being female, whereas I only want certain aspects of it.

[Rianna Humble]

The bulk of the scientific evidence is based on flawed work from years ago, and is based on the premise that CDing and/or gender dysphoria is a medical condition... I think the medical profession have finally accepted that the 'gay world' is not a medical condition...

You are right to say that cross-dressing is not necessarily due to a medical condition, but I cannot agree with you that Gender Dysphoria should not be considered a medical condition. It is real and there is more and more evidence that it has biological causes that can be alleviated by medical treatment. If we say that it is not medical, then we lay open the possibility of once more relegating it to mental disease or defect - which we are only just beginning to escape.

The studies done on similarities between brains of cisgendered males and females and those of their TS counterparts is neither flawed nor "from years ago" in the accepted sense of that phrase.

Neither do I think it helpful to conflate Gender Dysphoria with "the gay world" - being transsexual makes me no more or less likely to have any given sexual orientation than had I been cisgendered.


Putting all that together, I don't think I fit the profile of a transsexual.

I would agree with you, Sophie, that you don't appear to be suffering from acute gender dysphoria and that you are probably not transsexual (only you can state that with certainty hence my use of probably).

However, the origin of this thread was a discussion on whether all cross-dressers are transgender rather than whether they are all transsexual. In behaviour if not in identity, you definitely cross the gender stereotype which is the basic meaning of the word transgender.

[Sophie86]

However, the origin of this thread was a discussion on whether all cross-dressers are transgender rather than whether they are all transsexual. In behaviour if not in identity, you definitely cross the gender stereotype which is the basic meaning of the word transgender.

I gave my response to the OP here (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?159362-Are-All-Crossdressers-Transgendered&p=2589738&viewfull=1#post2589738) and here (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?159362-Are-All-Crossdressers-Transgendered&p=2590611&viewfull=1#post2590611). I don't really have anything else to say about that, but I found Reine's question on how one can know whether one is TS or just a CD who's deep in the pink fog interesting, and wanted to respond. :)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Kaz...Thnx for the post..

medical is not a pejorative term... whether or not transsexualism is medical (i think it is) is irrelevant to how we live... but its relative to how we are treated...
i am not a proponent of transition or else...even for transsexuals... i'm a proponent of people living a best possible quality of life...it sounds like you are doing great..my advice ? don't even flirt with thoughts of transsexuality or transition..
avoid the dysphoria at all costs.......

you are not suffering from gender dysphoria.. that's a very good thing... if you were suffering from it, you'd feel your life was a trap...and you were buried under a lifetime of faking it, a lifetime of missing out on life.....of meaningless successes and failures..you may feel like you weren't existing at all...waking up in the morning is a waste of time.. no matter how hard you try... i can liken it to feeling your survival instinct kicking in... these thoughts bring on guilt, shame and fear... which only heightens the problem... a person coming up to say "hi how are you" becomes something that makes you cringe...it is emptiness...i am not overstating how horrible it feels... i was so ashamed...i was so scared... and it wasnt until i started wishing i was dead that i finally sought out help to get through it...and i still hoped i could get through it without changing my gender... so enjoy you grandkids..thats what life is all about...your quality of life is good...and you are totally correct that you should not take steps that are gonna hurt that...

BUT
check out this post i saved from a couple yrs ago...its a great self disclosure about what i'm saying...

"...I've also been cross dressing my whole life and always knew there was more going on...but as usual with so many of us the feeling ebbed and flowed ....stronger then weaker....
Three years ago when it came over me, it was very powerful and I knew that it was time...all or nothing.. that was when I was 57....I cried in bed many nights wresteling with accepting myself...
Finally it was done...I let it go...I'd not fight it any more like I had done my whole life...I knew it was time...
I went on the internet to find help, found Lauras, got a Gender Therapist, got on HRT, began Electrolysis, got my surgery letter...
I'm 60 now...and just out full time...
They say that you know when your bell has "rung"...you'll know what you need to do...It becomes overwhelming...no doubts...
Heck...you'd think that if someone could keep it under control 57 years, they could ride it the rest of the way out and save themselves the pain, heartache, cost, loss and everything associated with transitioning....

But, when your "bell" rings....there is no other option...."

so despite my positivity around transition...i only did it because i had to.. ..and i know from experience that lots of people are surprised to end up transitioning..what's especially helpful i hope is that people feeling surprised and alarmed about those dysphoria feelings can find out that they are not alone...

and i think sophie's perspective on herself is an excellent example of a healthy way to consider your own situation...

[ReineD]

However, the origin of this thread was a discussion on whether all cross-dressers are transgender rather than whether they are all transsexual. In behaviour if not in identity, you definitely cross the gender stereotype which is the basic meaning of the word transgender.

Sometimes threads go off on tangents after many pages, especially once the original question has been discussed and a few people then are left further exploring related topics. :)

[kristinacd55]

Sometimes threads go off on tangents after many pages, especially once the original question has been discussed and a few people then are left further exploring related topics. :)

It seems this has although I didn't read a lot of the replies. I came late to the table, but believe crossdressers are one's who are dressing at home and not going out. I believe I was a crossdresser until February of this year when I went to a support group meeting and have since gone out with other t'girls and such. In other words, a graduation ceremony to become a tg. lol

[ReineD]

In other words, a graduation ceremony to become a tg. lol

Kristina ... a crossdresser IS transgender. :) A crossdresser who presents female like you do, DOES cross the gender lines ... whether she does it in private or she goes out.

That said, I can think of two types of crossdressers where it can be debated as to whether or not they fall within the transgender umbrella:

1) The men who put on article of women's clothing purely and solely for fetish, and the minute they are done everything comes off. These men don't feel the slightest bit feminine, they don't gain any other benefit from dressing other than the sexual gratification. I honestly don't see the difference between any object fetish, whether the object is items of women's clothing vs. other objects. BUT ... if the sexual high comes from imagining that he IS a woman, then the gender lines do get crossed IMO.

2) A man who wears a man-skirt. He fully presents as a guy except he is wearing a skirt (like a modern version of wearing a kilt) ... like a few people in this forum and the members at skirtcafe.com ... even if the skirt is purchased in the ladies department; man-skirts can only be purchased in fringe designer stores in NYC and LA, so they are simply not available anywhere else. Just like I don't see my dad as having crossdressed when he bought tights to wear under his jeans to stay warm during winter. There is no desire to feel feminine in this instance, so I don't see it as having crossed any gender boundaries. BUT ... again this is a question of motive. if he wears such a skirt because he likes the airflow and the freedom, IMO it is not CDing. But if the main reason he wears the more severe styles of skirts in guy mode is because this is the closest he can come to feeling girly without causing havoc in his conservative world (either internally or externally), then he IS crossdressing, IMO.

So again, the two instances above could describe someone who wears women's clothing but who doesn't cross the gender lines, depending on HIS MOTIVE of course. Motive is everything.

I think the vast majority of the CDers in this forum do cross the gender boundaries and they do fit under the "trans"gender umbrella ... and it doesn't necessarily mean they want to be women. :p