got balls?

[Badtranny]

Let's talk about coming out of the closet. First I want to state that this discussion is for those who WANT to come out but are too scared to do it. I completely support the people who are happy being closeted for whatever reason. That's your business and NOT the subject of this discussion.

I want to talk about the girls and boys who wish they had the seeds to come out, but can only seem to muster excuses instead of courage.

There are an awful lot of gals here who have described themselves as "manly men" in their regular lives and I can't help but be fascinated by the dichotomy.

I also see a lot of male posturing in regard to self defense, or just kicking ass in general. The overwhelming majority of CDs on this board appear to be mostly closeted, as well as typically macho. On the face of it, it's easy to understand that a macho guy wouldn't want people to know he likes wearing dresses and heels, but on the other hand why would a macho guy give a damn about what other people thought?

Since I've come out at work I've learned a lot about myself, but I've also learned an awful lot about the men I work with. Since I'm in the construction industry, I'm literally surrounded by macho chest beaters. Some of them are blowhards but most of them are just real men who are totally secure in their masculinity. How do I know? Because I have flower ear rings and a girly pony tail and these guys don't give a damn. Sure we all give each other a hard time about whatever is easy (I bust the fat guy for having a tight shirt and he busts me for looking like a girl) but those guys have been far more supportive than I could ever imagine. They're even protective in a way. It's really kind of sweet and I love it when macho dudes have a sensitive side.

So what took me so long? Well my theory is I couldn't be honest with anyone else until I could be honest with myself. Basically, don't expect others to accept you when you can't even accept yourself. When I finally came to terms with who I was, coming out became almost easy. But, then again I would have never been mistaken for masculine, even when I was trying so hard to be.

I saw a movie a couple of years ago that made a big impact on me. I can't remember the name but it was a documentary about gay guys that were very masculine and didn't feel like they fit into the "scene". They looked and acted just like regular guys and they would fight right away if you dared to call them fags. My favorite subject in this doc, was a guy who was awesome looking. He was big and tall and had a great attitude and I was crushing hard, but he said something that still resonates with me. He was talking about how difficult it was for him to come out because he didn't want his friends to think less of him. He said the worst thing he could be was a wimp. Then he said he started noticing the fem gay guys who were out and proud. He noticed they didn't give a damn who knew and they weren't taking crap from anybody. Then he realized that because he looked like a "real man" he was able to hide in plain sight, unlike the femmy guys, who couldn't hide even if they weren't gay, and that's when he realized that he was being a total wimp by hiding. He decided the bravest thing he could do was be honest about who he was and just deal with it. He said it was a shame that these little guys were so brave and he was such a coward.

So my question is this; Do you want to come out? Got balls?

[Kaitlyn26]

:heehee: Somebody pushed the big red button again! *runs away*

Oh, since I notice you're referring to me I'll offer some explanation. First of all I'm not closeted. Second of all, I never once felt the need to be prepared for defending myself until after I left the ugly little closet. Therefore I do not accept the idea that being physically capable is exclusively masculine, no matter how heated my discussion regarding topics that involve them may be.

You're also right. I stopped caring what people thought a long time ago. I'll even admit that the reactions of so many have maybe caused me to underestimate people's capacity for kindness and understanding at times. It's not really a function of masculinity, it's a function of survival. Again survival is not mutually exclusive to masculinity, and dare I say it, women are far better equipped for any physical or mental means of survival than a man.

As far as caring about being a wimp? I am a wimp! I'd much prefer to avoid all physical confrontation if I can. I do not care how physically capable I am perceived as being by those that know me. I prefer to be perceived as less physically capable. I also recognize from experience that it's not always possible to avoid a physical confrontation though. So I come prepared, and try to help others be prepared as well, as much as I can with somewhat limited knowledge on certain subjects.

My preparedness translates into all aspects of my life. I learned that from my Grandpa. Nothing worse than needing something, and not having it.

[Marcia Blue]

My closet is quite large. I can fit my wife, two sons, my best friend and his wife, one of my sons gg friends, and a dozen or so girls from my support/social group. I am not going to out myself to the world. I wish society was more open to TG people but that is not the case. My closet is more than large enough to twirl my skirt in and I am fine with that. Maybe the next generation will have a more broad view of people being "different". Until then a lot of us will have to live life, as we see safe. Safe in terms of our family and jobs, more than physical safety. At least in my world.

[Badtranny]

Kaitlyn, I wasn't referring to you at all girl. That's funny, I wonder why you think that. Honestly, the recent new thread started by a new girl who wants to come out but is too scared is what got me thinking (and posting).

Marcia, This thread doesn't address girls like you. I'm specifically talking about those who WANT to come out by their own admission, but don't have the courage. I respect your decision to live your life as you see fit.

Please let's not let this thread derail into the closet or no closet debate. My observation is about macho guys who aren't scared of anyone, but still afraid to admit who they are.

[Jessica Ames]

I have to say, I'm not sure to what extent I want to come out. I have slowly moved into a more androgenous look as far as wearing my hair longer, wearing more femme tops and fem pants on a daily basis. I like to get done up, but I like the idea of not making such a clear cut between masc/fem. Does this make sense?

[Kaitlyn26]

Kaitlyn, I wasn't referring to you at all girl. That's funny, I wonder why you think that. Honestly, the recent new thread started by a new girl who wants to come out but is too scared is what got me thinking (and posting).


Ah, well it's something that I've been told before. I just thought I would offer an explanation anyways, and a possible reason why posters behave the way they do. Let's face it, most of us are armored up when it comes to how we have to deal with things. Many barriers exist within us, to ward off potential trouble. I think it may come off as masculine sometimes, especially online where you only get the very basics of communication between posters. :)

[StarrOfDelite]

I understand where you're headed on this post, and in large part I agree with you. On the other hand, I don't think that it is incumbent upon someone who has made a decision which is right in his/her life to insist that the same decision is correct in any other person's life for that reason alone.

I think there are valid reasons to not Come Out at work or to one's family if that gesture would endanger one's employment or one's relationships with his/her children or parents. Truth is NOT always the best policy, and in many instances telling the truth can be an act of selfish indulgence or a choice to take the easy way out.

I work in a job which requires business suits, broadcloth shirts, silk ties, and good leather shoes to project an image. I suppose I could trade all my clothes in on women's business suits,shoes, et cetera, and probably not get fired because in my state of employment gender discrimination is illegal. Do I want to go through that hassle, and the hassle of explaining myself to everyone with whom I do business? Hell no!

I go out to shop, dine and club as Ingrid, and don't give a flying f**k what some stranger or service industry person may think of a six foot tall, 150 pound "woman" with stringy muscles in her arms and shoulders and legs, who is wearing a Marine Corps ring, a masculine Omega watch, and smells of Obsession. But, I don't think everyone who CD's has to do that. I don't think I have a duty to carefully explain to the waiters, maitre d's, and butt-sniffing bohunks on the street that, "I am a transgendered person and look how brave I am to tell you that."

I admire what you have done with your life, and am happy that it is turning out well for you. I am not sure it's proper for you to say that every CD should emulate your example.

Edit: I read your responses to replies by Kaitlyn, Jessica and Marsha, and wanted to state that I didn't ever think you were referring to me, or people like me in your original post. I just meant to add my two cents to the effect that we shouldn't be too demanding.

For some reason, I am reminded of the scene in The Fellowship of the Ring where Frodo and the other eight Walkers have been chosen and there is a debate on whether they should swear an oath of loyalty, and one of the wise men says something to the effect that the burden of having sworn one's word might be enough extra weight to make a wavering person fail entirely. I interpret this to mean that we shouldn't demand more from people than an effort of which we know they are capable.

[Jessica86]

Since many have viewed, few have posted, I'll put my two cents in due to being in this situation. Most of the time, its not about the nuts/guts. Fear of the unknown. It's fear of the known. I know for a fact if my coworkers found out, I would be screwed. I am expected to show up and take charge as the man they know. My job demands it, and in my opinion, is the most demanding job when it comes to being in charge of a situation. I don't see a reason for them to know because they are not living with me. They do not need to know what happens behind closed doors. I came out to my wife, but not even my family knows I still do it. My mom knows I used to, but to me, it just isn't something to air in public. It's like talking to your parents about your sex life. Why? Anyway, I won't ever live as Jessica full time, so I don't see a need to share her with coworkers and friends. I love being my male side because I have my wife and my son to live with as a husband/father figure. If I was planning to get a sex change and be Jessica all of the time, I would tell my coworkers, friends, and family. It would be better than showing up to work one day as Jessica, and people going "Who is that?" Or knocking on my parent's door as Jessica one random day. Yeah. Then, there's a long story. I love the way it has worked out, and I am a firm believer that anyone can come out to anybody. Sometimes there are just circumstances where it would not be smart to do so, and others just simply don't need to know....like in my situation where I am a crossdresser and not planning to transition.

[Jessica Ames]

. Truth is NOT always the best policy, and in many instances telling the truth can be an act of selfish indulgence or a choice to take the easy way out.


+1

That one hit close to home. That's how I treated this years ago, and don't want to do the same thing again.

[Aprilrain]

. Truth is NOT always the best policy, and in many instances telling the truth can be an act of selfish indulgence or a choice to take the easy way out.

I disagree. Lying is never good. And not saying anything is lying by omission. I agree that people don't have to were signes on their back saying "I'm this or I'm that" and different people need different levels of personal information about our lives obviously a SO deserves our total honesty where as a cab driver only requires that you pay him at the end of the ride. however how easy would it be to apply this logic to say cheating. "Well it would be selfish of me to tell him I cheated on him because it would hurt his feelings and ruin the relationship" so on and so forth. How many GGs here say their biggest problem with the CDing was the years that they felt "lied to" because their SO "hid" this huge part of himself.
No I say lying is selfish and though the truth may hurt and you may lose something you value by saying it, the comfort one feels or the "possessions" one holds dear are not really yours to keep if they are held on to by dishonest means.

[Badtranny]

Again, this thread is NOT about those who don't want to come out. I honestly don't care how people live their lives and I'm certainly not saying that you should do what I do. I'm specifically speaking to CDs and I will be a legal woman in the next 12-18 months, so clearly my path is not the way of a CD.

I am talking directly to those who have openly wished they could come out and no one else.

Starr, the only thing I'm demanding is that people accept themselves for who they are. I want them to see that they are not freaks and they deserve to be happy.

[Jessica Ames]

I should have specified. I NEVER think you should keep anything from your SO. I feel like coming out to people that have no bearing on your happiness in how you present, can be self-serving.

April, you are very right, in that there is a major difference between a SO and a cabby (or whoever)

[AllieSF]

Melissa, are you talking about coming out of the closet to tell people that you are a CD, or to come out of the closet to go out and enjoy the real world, even if that means away from a self-defined safe zone? One thing is to tell family, friends and workmates that one CD's and another is to just go out and experience being away from home and into everyday life, at a T friendly place or anywhere else where oner may feel comfortable.. A clarification here might elicit more thread topic related responses.

[Badtranny]

A clarification here might elicit more thread topic related responses.

Good point Allie. I wish everybody here knew you because I think you are a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

Let me clarify. There is absolutely no reason for a cross dresser to show up at work in a skirt. I'm talking about hiding from yourself to an extent that your entire lifestyle basically revolves around keeping a secret.

If you are wishing you could come out, then do it. Push your boundaries, develop a circle of friends who know you and love you for who you are. Stop treating your expression like it's some dirty little secret. It's not, it's just a little different. Some guys love to knit, or quilt. Some guys love cake decorating or fashion designing. You love to play dress up and kick up your heels. It's an exploration of your humanity and it's beautiful. There is NO reason to be ashamed.

[Vickie_CDTV]

Please let's not let this thread derail into the closet or no closet debate. My observation is about macho guys who aren't scared of anyone, but still afraid to admit who they are.

While someone may be macho and all, in this day and age no man is an island. While they may not fear what what individuals think, they may have good reason to fear what others they are obligated or beholden to may do to them (such as lose their job in a time where they are very hard to find, or the government taking their kids, and so on.)

[Kaz]

While someone may be macho and all, in this day and age no man is an island. While they may not fear what what individuals think, they may have good reason to fear what others they are obligated or beholden to may do to them (such as lose their job in a time where they are very hard to find, or the government taking their kids, and so on.)

Well said Vickie... there are complexities, and I think this is bigger than just 'having the balls'... people who stay in the closet to protect their families have 'a lot of balls' in my opinion because they are putting loved ones first.

[Alice B]

There are a lot of variables as to what is in and out, based upon the individual. I am out to my entire family and extended family, which is quite large. Several close friends also know. Yet I am not out to most of my professional world from 3 different professions (all of which were deemed very macho) and to my golf buddies, which is also very large body of individuals. I've reached a balance that I am very comfortable and happy with. I don't want to come out to the rest because there is no need and nothing to gain. For me life is good.

[Frédérique]

Do you want to come out? Got balls?

Got brain cells? That’s infinitely more preferable, IMHO… :hmph:

[Badtranny]

and I think this is bigger than just 'having the balls'..

Okay I give up. I see that the board insists on framing this as an "everybody come out" argument.

I clearly stated multiple times that I wanted to hear from those that WANT to come out but are too scared to consider it. I never said that everyone should want to and I certainly never said that anyone should endanger their families.

Alice, you're out as far as this discussion criteria, and you're happy. This thread is for those that are NOT happy and are maybe only out to their wives if that.

I thought there might be room for some constructive argument on that issue, but I guess not. :-(

[Kaz]

Holy shit... I do apologise if I have caused a problem... what 'board'? I am an equal member and you know it.

I do want to come out and I am too scared to consider it and therefore this is a valid area for discussion? If I am out of place I apologise! I really do not think that anything that I have posted should have caused offence.

There seems to me sometimes to be a real problem with accepting other's opinons...

[Jessica Ames]

Okay I give up. I see that the board insists on framing this as an "everybody come out" argument.

I clearly stated multiple times that I wanted to hear from those that WANT to come out but are too scared to consider it. I never said that everyone should want to and I certainly never said that anyone should endanger their families.

Alice, you're out as far as this discussion criteria, and you're happy. This thread is for those that are NOT happy and are maybe only out to their wives if that.

I thought there might be room for some constructive argument on that issue, but I guess not. :-(

Melissa. I think that this post may need a little time to soak in. There are many girls here (my assumption) that would love if they could be out, but as you know, it's a very scary thing at first. I think that many would rather pretend that they want to be closeted, when in reality they would love to get past the difficult part (haha). Maybe some here just need to be honest with themselves before they can be honest on the board. I know that I have shared the same feeling in the past and to a certain extent, now.

[NicoleScott]

Looks to me like another "you don't come out because you fear" thread presented from a different angle. Or maybe it's a "I came out and it worked for me so you should do it, too" thread.
A TS about to become a legal woman with no use for balls wants to know if CD's have the balls to come out. I guess I just don't understand why the question makes any sense.

[Aprilrain]

When I was hoping all this was was CDing it was desperation that finally caused me to tell my wife. She had an inkling so it wasn't a total shock! I also told a trusted friend who took it in stride. So I was sorely disappointed when that and my wife's indifference to my dressing turned out to not be enough. Couple that with a lack of understanding about myself and a BAD therapist and back in the closet it went. It was active denial and a feverish level of activity that allowed me to keep it bottled up for another five years. Predictably it all exploded back onto the scene about a year ago again driven by desperation.

[Barbara Dugan]

Let's talk about coming out of the closet

So what took me so long? Well my theory is I couldn't be honest with anyone else until I could be honest with myself. Basically, don't expect others to accept you when you can't even accept yourself. When I finally came to terms with who I was, coming out became almost easy. But, then again I would have never been mistaken for masculine, even when I was trying so hard to be.


I do really want to get out of the closet but I still have issues , I am still working on the acceptance part and overcome a lifetime of repressed feelings.

When I was a little kid growing up in Mexico, there was a transgender kid a few years older than me living in the same neighborhood and to said she had a difficult time is an understatement...she was a magnet for ridicule,beatings and discrimination from the other kids , even my older brother and his friends gave her a hard time and nobody stood up for her not even his own family..I had my own issues but if somebody tried to give me a hard time my brother stood up for me, he got into a few fights protecting me.
I believe being witness of what happen to her made me hide my feelings since early age because I rationalized that being a fairy only got you into trouble and even your own family won't love you.

[Schatten Lupus]

I was in that position, but then it sunk in that I would be a hypocrite to myself and what I stand for. And now I'm just thinking of how to come out and what to say, and hoping for the right time to come out to present itself but I'm starting to think the "right time" is just a fantasy. Right now though my only real issue is my dad is homophobic and my mom used to work with a transwoman and she said some pretty nasty things about her. But at the same time my family is so dysfunctional that they may not see as that bad since it won't be nearly as bad as what my older brother and sister have done, which includes going to prison, dealing drugs, having a child my girlfriend and I can't support and hardly take care of, eloping, and not alienating myself from the family so hopefully it won't be too bad. And my mom has always known there is something that has been deeply troubling me.

[Badtranny]

Looks to me like another "you don't come out because you fear" thread presented from a different angle. Or maybe it's a "I came out and it worked for me so you should do it, too" thread.
A TS about to become a legal woman with no use for balls wants to know if CD's have the balls to come out. I guess I just don't understand why the question makes any sense.

No. This is my failure to communicate, and I don't know how to make my point any clearer.

Somebody just posted a new thread about wanting desperately to come out but she didn't have the courage. I'm not trying to convince anyone to come out. I was just trying to provoke an honest discussion with those that want to, but don't know how.

There is no bigger supporter of TG people of all stripes than me. I will stand up and support a sister or brother (like Chaz) and I don't care who's watching.

There are CDs out there who want to be free, and there are those that don't. I want to hear from those that do.

Is this thing on?

[Badtranny]

I do really want to get out of the closet but I still have issues , I am still working on the acceptance part and overcome a lifetime of repressed feelings.

Barbara, you know who you are. Do you really think you don't deserve happiness? Change your perspective from coming out to everyone, to building a circle of friends who know the real you, then gradually widen that circle. You are a beautiful person but you have to believe that and accept yourself first. The shame you feel will perpetuate itself until you can look at your reflection and say "I'm not ashamed" and mean it. You have nothing to be ashamed of.

[ReineD]

Somebody just posted a new thread about wanting desperately to come out but she didn't have the courage. I'm not trying to convince anyone to come out. I was just trying to provoke an honest discussion with those that want to, but don't know how.

I just thought I'd emphasize your point. Maybe it will help. But maybe Misty, you could change the title to something like "For those who WANT to come out" :)


Anyway, I know it's hard to measure something like this, but I was always under the impression that those who want to come out, eventually do.

OK, maybe they'll come here for support first and post their concerns, maybe they'll lurk for awhile and become encouraged from reading other people's outings, but eventually, they do post things like, "I tried on shoes at Payless in guy mode today", or "I wore a pair of girl jeans to work today", or even, "I decided to finally shave my legs". One baby step at a time. I remember when my SO was expanding her outings. In her case, it all happened rather quickly from going to just TG support groups when I met her to going everywhere in the mainstream in under a year. BUT ... it took her years of sorting through internal questions before she became ready to do this. And none of it had to do, I think, with a lack of courage. She did have some concerns about how she would be treated, but they were not insurmountable. Mostly, she didn't think she could pass and I gather she needed to figure out a way to change her appearance sufficiently to be able to pass well, without feeling as if she compromised her guy look. This is difficult to accomplish, I think. And it does take time.

There are also other members who, no matter how much personal courage they have about going out in public, do fear that it will cause issues with loved ones. This is a different matter than you describe, I think, since it has less to do with having the courage to go out than it has with trying to navigate relationships with family members who don't understand?

Two more thoughts:

First, I've read here on several occasions members who express fear, not of going out so much, but of not being able to keep the girl in check when the "out" genie is released. I think for some people there is a desire to stay fully or semi closeted as a means to maintain a balance, again possibly for the sake of families, but also because they fear losing the ability to enjoy being their guy selves. I look at it as a form of self-policing, in much the same way that I choose to not have too much chocolate in the house. :)

And second, these members may well say they want to go out, and they may well fantasize about it. But ultimately, they choose not to for different reasons than fear of the general public's reactions. And "fantasy" is the operative word here. Just because someone says they want to go out in a post doesn't mean they necessarily do. I mean, some people come here to fantasize and doing so serves its intended purpose?

I just wanted to bring forth reasons why some people who say they want to come out, don't, that has nothing to do with lacking courage. But, that's just my :2c:.



And then of course there are the members for whom your thread does not apply, but I thought I'd mention them here since I rather like to be thorough ... those who do stay in the closet for a variety of reasons, from having come to terms with the knowledge they will never pass, to not having all that frequent or intense a desire to dress. Or possibly the reason for dressing is purely sexual and they're not interested in interacting with people in the mainstream.

And finally, yes I do see some posts from people who really do want to come out such as Barbara and who don't have families they need to consider, in other words it is about a fear of what others will think of them. And for such people, your thread is inspiring indeed. :hugs:

[Badtranny]

This is a different matter than you describe, I think, since it has less to do with having the courage to go out than it has with trying to navigate relationships with family members who don't understand?

YES exactly. My thread isn't really about "going" out as much as it is "coming" out. And by coming out I mean to yourself first. I know this sounds crazy but I really believe that deeply closeted people are having serious trouble accepting who they are. Each time they dress up they're faced with the shame of doing something they wish they could stop doing. This shame combined with secrecy can eat a hole in a person's spirit leaving a very significant part of their personality dead to the world as well as themselves. It takes courage to love yourself.



And finally, yes I do see some posts from people who really do want to come out such as Barbara and who don't have families they need to consider, in other words it is about a fear of what others will think of them. And for such people, your thread is inspiring indeed. :hugs:

Inspiring? That's very sweet of you, but this thread is nothing but me barking at the fence.

[Marie-Elise]

I think this is an interesting line of discussion. The only person who knows of my CD tendencies is my wife who (thank God) is totally accepting of it. I have not and probably will never tell anyone in my immediate family. I don't see it as adding anything positive to their lives. Because of my background, it may add a lot of negativity; not in a violent or hateful way but, all the same, it is not something I think they need to know.

My friends are another group to whom I think knowledge of my CDing would not add much. Would some reject me if they knew? I'm sure some may, especially the old school ones. But, again, I'm not seeing any benefit to letting any of my friends know; it just would not add anything positive to their lives.

Now, as for me. I have to admit that, at times (maybe once a week), I wish I did not have the need to crossdress. However, the feeling only lasts a couple of minutes or so. Then I go back to doing whatever. But, I think that in that feeling is probably a lack of something...maybe confidence? I don't know.

I do know that yesterday, I got up a couple of hours before the baby and the wife, I wore a skirt and blouse and did my usual coffee and reading. When I heard the baby cry, I quickly changed and began the day with him and my wife. After a couple of hours, my wife remarked as to what a good mood I was in. And I was for the whole day.

Didn't mean to ramble but I guess I was thinking it through as I wrote. Anyway, for me, I don't feel the need to come out of the closet. I do it and it's between me and my wife. I don't think I ever would have told her since I didn't feel it would add anything positive to her life. However, I thought that hiding these tendencies was adding negativity to her life because I had to hide and lie.

I don't hide and lie to my friends and family; it just never comes up. If the subject of crossdressing does come up (as it has on a few rare occasions), my standard line is that "I only dress as a woman when entertaining close friends." This usually gets a laugh and I am not lying. In fact, when I came out to my wife, one of the first things she said was "Oh gosh, so you weren't kidding with that "Only when I entertain close friends" line!". Then she laughed.

Got balls? Yes. But I am a pragmatist.

[Aprilrain]

hoping for the right time to come out to present itself but I'm starting to think the "right time" is just a fantasy.

You hit the nail on the head! I waited for probably 4 1/2 years in a 5 year marriage for the "right time" to present its self for me to leave my wife (It was a really volatile relationship from the start).
Whatever the difficult situation is there will likely never be a convenient time to say what needs to be said or do what needs to be done! That is part of what makes it so difficult.

[StarrOfDelite]

So, I guess you didn't like "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," huh?

Just teasing.

[kimdl93]

[QUOTE=Badtranny;2589268]
So what took me so long? Well my theory is I couldn't be honest with anyone else until I could be honest with myself. Basically, don't expect others to accept you when you can't even accept yourself. When I finally came to terms with who I was, coming out became almost easy. But, then again I would have never been mistaken for masculine, even when I was trying so hard to be.

I saw a movie a couple of years ago that made a big impact on me. I can't remember the name but it was a documentary about gay guys that were very masculine and didn't feel like they fit into the "scene". They looked and acted just like regular guys and they would fight right away if you dared to call them fags. My favorite subject in this doc, was a guy who was awesome looking. He was big and tall and had a great attitude and I was crushing hard, but he said something that still resonates with me. He was talking about how difficult it was for him to come out because he didn't want his friends to think less of him. He said the worst thing he could be was a wimp. /QUOTE]

I kinda passed on this one for a while, but felt like chiming in this morning. The two paragraphs above really resonate for me. They describe me to a T (t as in transgender tending towards transexual...that's 4 T's!) I really couldn't imagine coming out to anyone until I was over the self loathing that I'd experienced most of my life. After many years, therapy and the support of a loving spouse, I'm far more capable of accepting myself in my entirety, and more willing to share that with others.

[juno]

I have the courage to come out, but my wife does not. Strangely, she supported me as a feminine male even when I was an assistant Girl Scout leader while serving in the US Infantry. Now that I am actually going female on the outside, she is worried about public opinion.

I went out to meet others less than 3 months after I first tried on a cheap Halloween wig and realized that I could actually succeed at a female look. In fact, I got my first female shoes in the mail just a few days before going to that group meet-up, so that event was actually the first time I was fully dressed. I didn't go out into the general public that day, but I did that shortly after I got a better wig and a bit better at makeup.

[Brynna M]

Its an interesting thought. I think there is some truth to the argument that not accepting yourself is part of staying in the closet. I've accepted that crossdressing is a part of me that will never go away. I've accepted that I am not a bad person for wanting to crossdress. I would like to not hide my crossdressing and treat it much like any other activity in my life but I am very afraid of what that would cost me.
While my fiance knows. She neither accepts nor loaths this but its kind of what she doesn't see or hear is ignored arrangement. While I want to be more "out" I want her more.
I believe that my life at work and in other hobbies would be impacted if people knew and coming out in some "safe" places risks coming out in places I would rather not. I value these other parts of my life more that being "out."
People use terms like "dieing inside" because they can't express themselves. I can understand this. I would love to go shopping for a cute skirt or wear something prettier or softer when I felt like it and sometime it hurt's that I can't. but it would hurt as much or more to loose my fiance or be shunned at a job I enjoy or to not be able to do hobbies I love because people there no longer feel comfortable with me.
All people ( not just cd's et. all) can't have everything they want in life. Crossdressing isn't the only thing in my life so I try to balance the most good for the least pain. While I would love to be more out and more free the cost is too high.

[docrobbysherry]

How wonderful! Yet ANOTHER positive fem reason to stay closeted! :)

Because I don't have the huevos necessary to come out to everyone? Oh yeah! I'm the girlie girl!:thumbsup:

Of course, if I was to come out and be completely honest, I'd have to admit SEX was a large part of my dressing! I wonder how well THAT info would fly with my vanilla family and friends?
Whoops! Does that also means I have TOO MUCH cajones to come out!?:eek:

Oh well! Another good "in/out of the closet" theory shot to H!:straightface:

[Intertwined]

1st, comming out at work is not for everyone, some have no need to, and some just should not. Not all employeers are going to be understanding, and I don't care what the Law in your area says, if an empoyer wants to fire you, they can find or invent a reason.

2nd, as far as co-worker or family and friends being supporting, that all depends on the society you live in.

3rd, It's natural to be affraid of the unknown, one persons experience will not always apply to the next person, there are no guaranties.

4th, just because your job requires you to wear business suits, dress shirts, silk ties, and good leather shoes, dosn't mean you can't wear the opposite gender clothing.

5th, Truth is always the best policy, but, not disclosing something when not asked, is not lying.

I have been gradually coming out to EVERYONE over the last 3 years.

Went to work last week, worked a 8 hour shift, for the first time in a work shirt (uniform), skirt and 5 inch dorsey pumps. I work for one of the largest school districts in California.

I am in the process of telling the last of my family that does not know.

I have had absolutely no negative reactions. I know this is the exception, not the rule, this is due in part to the area I live, California, and that People like, appreciate & trust Marshall, so there was no reason not to feel the same about Marsha.

We here on the Forum can give all the advice in the world, but, we are not in your shoes, everyones situation is unique.

[anna4ever]

"I know this sounds crazy but I really believe that deeply closeted people are having serious trouble accepting who they are. Each time they dress up they're faced with the shame of doing something they wish they could stop doing." Badtranny

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this thread over the past few days. The above lines in particular, because those words are a very good description of me. In spite of my screen name I doubt I will ever be anna4ever. I spent from 2006 to 2009 in therapy trying to deal with the fact that I hated myself.

I grew up believing that if you were born a boy you were supposed to meet a nice girl, get married, buy a house and have kids. I know a good portion of the people on this board are straight and feel comfortable as men, but that doesn't apply to me. I really tried to be straight but I just don't like women that way. I believed that I was defective because I was attracted to boys and had a soft spot for peasant blouses, long skirts, lipstick and cute shoes. I still struggle with feeling that I'm defective. I know this is crazy because no organism is perfect. I'm not defective because I'm into guys, that just how I'm wired. But I can't shake the feeling that I should be attracted to women and I should pass by a cosmetics display without the urge to buy something.

The way I see cross-dressing is that it is symptom more than an entity of its own. Some people dress because they feel that they are women, some dress because they like the looks of women's clothes, and some dress just to get off. The question of whether to come out depends on what you are looking to gain by sharing the fact that you cross dress. Is the thing you're trying to gain worth what you may potentially lose by coming out.

To answer your question, I would like to come out, but I'm not sure how it would improve my life. I'm unhappy, but I'm not miserable. I'm currently going through electrolysis to get rid of the last of my beard after laser treatments. After the beard is gone I doubt I could ever be seen a woman even if I were to have ffs. I haven't come out because I'm scared that I wouldn't make my life any better by doing so. I'd exchange the stress of keeping my secret for the stress of being rejected by my family and society.

[Badtranny]

I finally see some extremely honest and self aware responses. Thank you ladies, for reading, for thinking, for helping.

This is turning into a real discussion and we can help each other immensely by sharing our thoughts on the most difficult decision of all; coming out to ourselves.

[BRANDYJ]

This is not a matter of having balls or not. It's not a matter of being brave either. It has very little to do with fear as suggested. Let me be blunt. it's a matter of being smart and very aware of what exspense it would be to come out of the closet as fa as have. Being smart and aware of consiquiences has nothing to do with having balls or being brave! For some it would be stupid to come out! Fr one they may look like a linebacker in a dress and be the laughing stock wherever they ,may go. Let's be real here. Gong public is not for everyone. Some do not care who is laughing at them, talking about them and being the brunt of joks whereever they go. But most of us don't like iut and won't be stupid enough to allow ourselves to be laughed at. Again, nothign to do with having a pair!
If you don't mind being laughed at and possibly humiliated, that's fine. I'm happy for you, but it's not for everyone. So let's not call us weak or lacking a pair when in fact it's a matter of good judgement and being smart that keeps most of us somewhat in the closet. I have a pair, but I also have brains enough to know where, when and who I can trust with this side oif me.

[suchacutie]

Melissa, I hope you won't get discouraged with this thread. You are skirting an issue that brings a lot of emotional response and language is not always sufficiently delicate to bring an idea across to everyone who reads it. Each person will put their own "spin" on what you've written and then comment, especially if the "spin" involves near and dear emotions.

Maybe it might be stated simpler, "Let's talk about strategies for coming out for those who desired to do so but have been held back for whatever reason". Does that help?

My problem with all of this is that I have no empathy in one sense since my wife and I discovered Tina together, so to me the most important person in my life is fully cognizant of Tina. That means Tina moves forward as my wife and I see fit, and I am fully content. But, as you point out, others are not so content and a discussion of how to help that situation is a good idea!

Keep trying!

tina

[Raychel]

Would I like to be totally out to the world, allowed to dress as I please and how I feel most comfortable. HELL YES. Do I have the balls to actually do it. HELL NO.

I could not handle the social reprecussions that could come from it. The possible rejection from my family and friends. So here I am stuck with no balls and fake boobs. :daydreaming:

[BRANDYJ]

Why do we have to equate having common sense, good judgment and care about our jobs, and family, with having no balls? I don't get it. Let's face it, it's just not that important to many of us. I fully accept self and who and what I am. It's not a matter of having balls. I find that thinking insulting to those of us that have damn good reason to be in the closet or at least semi closeted.

[morgan51]

Barbara, you know who you are. Do you really think you don't deserve happiness? Change your perspective from coming out to everyone, to building a circle of friends who know the real you, then gradually widen that circle. You are a beautiful person but you have to believe that and accept yourself first. The shame you feel will perpetuate itself until you can look at your reflection and say "I'm not ashamed" and mean it. You have nothing to be ashamed of.

I am one sitting fearfully on the fence I've told a few and dread telling others I'm ts not cd but the fear is real I guess I'm a macho chicken****. Somehow the macho part seems to have parted company about the time of beginning 2+yrs. of hrt. LOL

[Badtranny]

But, as you point out, others are not so content and a discussion of how to help that situation is a good idea!

Thank you Tina. I think some people would rather argue with me, than accept themselves for who they are.

In regard to restating my premise, I think I've explained it as well as I could. You and many others have understood exactly, so I think those that don't, just don't want to.

[LeaP]

I've accepted myself, finally and belatedly, as transgendered. When I did, it was like a switch fipped on - the feelings and behavior suddenly became normal. I also felt less concerned about what others think ... but not to the point where I'm out. The world does not accept transgender expression and I'm not prepared to accept the possible consequences. I KNOW a range of gender identify and expression is normal ... but the rest of the planet does not.

In fact, in an odd way, I see evidence every day in this forum that even most crossdressers and other transgendered people don't really accept transgender identity AS trans in the "in between" sense. How so? By labeling behavior and dress as female, feminine, etc. By terming themselves girls and women. What is this but a validation of the either/or? I'm NOT a women (or girl), even dressed, and I'm not trying to be a woman. I don't call think of myself as a woman when dressed and I also don't use the term "man" to describe myself, ever. I feel like I'm ... something else. Who is going to understand that when it seems like even most people here don't?

You should also know that some of us don't look terribly presentable when presenting as female or in mixed mode. That invites attention and ridicule, which isn't comfortable for anyone. You (Badtranny) look terrifically passable, which increases acceptability to many - unfortunately because a lot of those probably assume you are either transsexual or at least naturally effeminate. Unfair, perhaps, but likely true. Those of us less naturally blessed (and my preference would be for for more ambiguity rather than for passable effeminacy) are lightning rods for unwanted attention.

So, I understand what you are saying, but, as they say, all things (and all people) are not equal. I may be out a bit more than I am today in the future. I doubt that I will come out to many that know me as male, however. And there's more involved in that than sheer courage, though it certainly takes vast quantities of that!

Lea

[flatlander_48]

First off, this is obviously an INTENSELY personal subject and everyone's situation is different. There is no one size fits all. At this point, I can only state what I have or haven't done and why.

To begin with, for me there are 2 aspects at work: being a bisexual and being a crossdresser. While there is some relationship between the 2, it is not automatic. I came out as a bisexual to close friends and some affinity group members starting about 10 years ago. AT the time I was quite active in a peer-to-peer counseling methodology that was a tool in helping to improve the quality of one's life. It felt like something I needed to do as a way of unburdening myself and unhinging past life from current life. In other words, to try to stop carrying around a lifetime of baggage every where you go. And, it did work. Every time I told someone, I did feel better; lighter and more relaxed. A few years later, I joined an LGBT employee affinity group at work. Before I joined I had a conversation with someone I knew from other diversity group involvements and who identified as lesbian. She didn't tell others anything in particular about me and I didn't realize for some that the rest of the group assumed that I had joined as an ally and not a Tribe member. While I didn't jump up and down and wear a t-shirt with a big pink and lavender B on it, it became clear that I identified as bisexual.

On the other hand, I do have a lot of trepidation regarding coming out as a crossdresser. As a way of explaining this, I offer the following metaphor. I often deal with Intellectual Property in the course of my job. Because we do a lot of joint development agreements and such, we have many legal documents in play as to what others can and cannot do with singularly or jointly developed Intellectual Property. However, it is vary hard for the human mind to completely compartmentalize itself. We are the sum total of our experiences and actions, so how do you keep things covered by a development agreement out of your thoughts several months or more later?

So, how does this relate to crossdressing? There is conscious action and subconscious thought. There is a lot of incorrect information out there as to what crossdressing is and why people do it. Conscious action can be dealt with, but who is to say what happens on a subconscious level? Our dislikes and prejudices exist on a very visceral level and it can be VERY tough to keep them from bleeding over into our behaviors. All you will know is that some crazy behavior occurred, but you won't have any idea that it may be driven by someone's fears about what they THINK crossdressers are all about.

For the time being, I do not choose to put this information in people's hands. There are some that I would trust, but it is impossible to keep information contained to a select few. You have to be prepared that the circle of people that know about you may suddenly and unexpectedly enlarge. While I think I could deal with a discussion about bisexuality, I think a discussion about crossdressing would be much more difficult. I am a machinery guy, but I deal with a lot of construction types most of the time in my expatriate assignment. I really feel that there would be a good chance that attitudes towards me would shift; and not for the better I'm afraid. For the present, status quo is good. And just remember, no one has yet figured out how to UNRING a bell...

[Pythos]

Badtranny,

I for one want to completely stop the hiding. I am quite open about my more unusual styles, but not my full on wild, or exotic looks, and very few know of my full on fem self.

I am not worried about what people think in general. I just don't want to deal with one of my mother's several friends seeing me out and about, and then reporting back to the parental unit. I really hate dealing with silliness on her part.

Another major factor is my flying. As I stated long ago, I long for the day I could go flying while skirted or in one of my more "femme" outfits. Instead of wearing loose jeans, I could wear my tighter fitting pants.

The situation is, I don't think the FAA would react to well to that. I have a friend that transitioned and the hell the FAA put her through was absolutely atrocious. I will be going for a more important role in flying and that is the role of instructor. I don't want to lose credit before I gain it, by some closed minded person exclaiming " How can he instruct, he dresses in women's clothes!!!" That mentality still resides in the Aviation community.

My future SO, should not be a factor. She will know from the start that I do this, so hopefully I won't to face the ridiculous question "what's more important, your marriage, or your crossdressing?" That question is one that should NEVER be made. It is an ultimatum, and we all know how ultimatums work.

Aside from those two things, I am very open and out when it comes to my unusual styles.

Oh, and another thing I dislike dealing with, are assumptions.

"He likes wearing feminine stuff, he must want to have a sex change" This is simply not true for me. I am very unusual in that I DO NOT want to transition, however currently in order to dress certain ways for many areas, you MUST have some kind of paper or something saying you are transitioning, or even fully transitioned. I have a friend that is F to M, and they ARE NOT restricted in this manner. They can openly go out looking quite masculine and wear masculine clothing. Why is there this double standard?

[Badtranny]

Pythos, I love your perspective on these issues. You are indeed an enlightened soul. I wish I had some helpful advice for you but alas I don't have any decent advice for anyone's specific circumstance.

This thread is about honestly looking at ourselves and our situations. I clearly have no idea about how or when anyone should come out. I only argue that the most important step is openly being comfortable with who you are.

You are clearly at peace with your particular bend, and I think that inner peace will eventually begin to manifest itself in your lifestyle. This is afterall the crux of my thread.

Each of our observations will help us all see more.

[*Vanessa*]

Well there you go BadTranny (the bad part can't be about looks, or Melissa?) You have a number of really good direct and relevant replies to "Got Balls".

I relate both to Lea Paine, Flatlander and Pythos the most and agree with what they are saying. I won't reiterate what they say for the sake of saying something here.

I do know that if we gauge ourselves and intentions on a 'If this then That' scenario we are going down the wrong road. To help evolve we need to be healthy and use different potential and even more exacting tools. "If the only tool was have in out toolbox is a hammer then all of our problems start to look like nail." << kinda thingie <smile>

I have (at times unfortunately) the 'balls' to tell and show the world who and what I have become after this very arduous journey. However, I do know 'they', for the most part, are not ready for the likes of me.

[Aprilrain]

While I think I could deal with a discussion about bisexuality, I think a discussion about crossdressing would be much more difficult.

Either way you're just a faggot to the majority of the guys you describe working with. I mean really think about it, The fact that you like girls too dosen't undo the fact that you like guys!

[AllieSF]

Aprilrain: What is a faggot?

[StephanieC]

I can see how this question can attract so many strong opinions, especially if people react (literally) to certain words. And I think using labels can be convenient but distracting to the real conversation. I also think this very much depends on you knowing yourself (ie. being true to yourself implies you know enough of yourself to determine your direction).

But I also like the "baby steps" analogy. Or perhaps it's more like "little ripples in the water that become more substantial waves". I also think this involves your idea of happiness. Someone recently suggested that it's ok for me to be happy and that since I have adult children, I have very little impact on whether they are happy (or unhappy) based on what I do. Sometimes, perhaps based on religious upbringing, we may think that self-sacrifice is a means to happiness. Maybe it is. On the other hand, maybe our journey is really what was meant to be.

Attending support groups, joining a "diversity" chorus, attending a social...all of these can be done in very welcoming, very protective circumstances and gives one a chance to adjust to the possibility of coming out more (or not). Sometimes I think we think literally, very black and white...be "this" one day and "someone completely different" another. I think the key is a sense of gradual evolution. At least that's how I read the post.

-stephani

[Badtranny]

Aprilrain: What is a faggot?

Allie, she's just using the vernacular of that particular segment of society.

To the average redneck straight male there is no "bi", only fags and bros. You can't possibly want to wear a dress or explore your sexuality unless your gay. End of story.

This is the primary reason why men have such a hard time accepting who they are. There is nothing worse than being something less than a man.

[StarrOfDelite]

Allie, she's just using the vernacular of that particular segment of society.

To the average redneck straight male there is no "bi", only fags and bros. You can't possibly want to wear a dress or explore your sexuality unless your gay. End of story.

This is the primary reason why men have such a hard time accepting who they are. There is nothing worse than being something less than a man.

"Just to clarify what you meant, you are talking about how the average 'neck thinks, not about reality, right? Because I am Different" than a manly man, not "Less."

[kellycan27]

So, I guess you didn't like "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," huh?

Just teasing.

They didn't have to ask.. they could tell :heehee: ( with regards to me)

[Duana]

I've come to realize having the courage to go out dressed, is a great personal growth opportunity. It has made me a stronger, more confident person. It has helped me develop a mental toughness. I'm a better person.

Not sure who said it, (thought it was Bob Dylan) but he was right: "God don't give you points for doing stuff you ain't afraid to do."

Why don't people understand that the more you do something, the easier it is, until it ain't nothin' but a thing.

3 weeks ago I walked into a neighborhood bar I'd never been into dressed. My anxiety level was really high. But I was treated well and got through it. Fast forward to last night. I know every bartender and waitress by name; they had a "leg off" and I won hands down. All the women there thing I have the most amazing legs. They scream my name when I come in the door and when I leave. They're all on my Facebook. I'm a freakin' celebrity there.

I'm retired from trying to persuade or understand the closeted. I do pity them for they have no clue what they're missing but its not my business or concern. My girl and I are living our lives and that's all we're responsible for.

[Badtranny]

Hi Duana,

While I do appreciate your support, I'm afraid you and I actually disagree on this topic.

As a TG sister, I'm proud of you and your openness, rock on girl, but I also understand that there are degrees of openness that need to be acknowledged and many of our sisters are facing a much different situation than you or I. The point I'm trying to make isn't really about "going out" it's about "coming out". More specifically to yourself. There are CDs that have been out and about yet they still feel shame for who they are and what they're doing. This shame is at the root of the secrecy and double life that TG people often find themselves trapped in.

This thread is about asking people to take a good hard honest look at themselves and embrace whatever their expression is. All of the denial and deflection in this community makes me sad, and the only thing that I can be sure of is that accepting yourself is a prerequisite to being accepted. I'm asking people to come out of their own personal closet. I'm asking them to say out loud to themselves that "I'm a cross-dresser" or "I'm a sissy", or "I'm gay", or "I'm a woman inside", and own it. Accept it. Be proud of it, because that is who you are, and you deserve to be happy. Coming out to the rest of the world is fine in your own time, but I know that your life will change for the better when you can finally come out to yourself.

It takes balls to be a tranny.

[Duana]

Hi Duana,

While I do appreciate your support, I'm afraid you and I actually disagree on this topic.



Sorry Melissa, I didn't see where we disagree? I said I'm not interested in driving the closeted out, never really was but now less than ever. They can do whatever they want with their lives. It is theirs after all.

I understand what you're saying about degrees of openness, and I share my own. I'm not out at my work but I'm not in a panic if they find out either. I'm not out to most of my family because I don't feel any need or obligation to be. It has no effect on them. But when straight guys ask me why I do it, my standard answer is, "Because it effing rocks my face off!"

So what exactly do you think I believe which you disagree with? Perhaps I've changed my opinion a bit and we don't disagree, or maybe we do. I'm just curious and confused :)

[Badtranny]

Hey Duana,

I was reacting to your contentious coming out thread (that mine keeps getting compared to) and your rather rigid position that coming out is essentially a necessity for happiness. I would agree with you, except that we differ on the meaning of "coming out". You mean it literally and I mean it more philosophically. I think now that we may be closer to agreement, either through change or clarification.

Either way, you'd be fun to party with. ;-)

[Duana]

I was reacting to your contentious coming out thread (that mine keeps getting compared to) and your rather rigid position that coming out is essentially a necessity for happiness. I would agree with you, except that we differ on the meaning of "coming out". You mean it literally and I mean it more philosophically. I think now that we may be closer to agreement, either through change or clarification.


I don't think its necessary for happiness. Happiness is always taken in context. I truly believe you can be happy in a closet until the moment you're out of it. After that, you'll have a different perspective and you will no longer be happy there. I felt this on my recent trip to Bogota. For safety and business reasons, I spent a week in drab. I dressed one night in the hotel room because I missed it. I got NOTHING from it. I felt like a caged animal and was totally unsatisfied. Happiness is all a matter of perspective and if the closet is all you know, I believe you can be happy there but don't dare venture out if you're not prepared to stay because you'll ruin it.

As for philosophically versus literally, its hard to have fun in the literal world if your philosophy isn't right. I'm a proud crossdresser. I talk to anyone and answer any questions open and honestly. I'm not apologetic or shamed. Even in drab, while buying women's clothes, I've corrected cashiers who thought I was buying something for my girlfriend.

And when we go out, I'm not hiding in the corner. I'm the one in the spotlight up on the stage shakin' my booty. From Shawshank, "Get busy living or get busy dying."



Either way, you'd be fun to party with. ;-)


You damn right. Let's do it! LOL! Here's me in Cancun and not just one night...:

http://i55.tinypic.com/v8n6ki.jpg

http://i53.tinypic.com/10ddu2a.jpg

[ReineD]

I don't think its necessary for happiness. Happiness is always taken in context. I truly believe you can be happy in a closet until the moment you're out of it. After that, you'll have a different perspective and you will no longer be happy there.

I agree with this! There are other reasons for choosing to let the girl out slowly than fear, guilt, or shame.

[ThiHi]

Just getting to this (Not on that much) and yes, in so many way, dressing, sexuality, abilities, accepting ones self is the key to everything. For many reasos, it's taken me a very long time to start getting comfortable with who I am, and now I'm far less angry, far happier, and abl eto accomplish far more in most facits of my life. Accepting yourself is such a powerful thing, affects your entire reality.

Nice post, good discussion.