Facial recognition fear

[jjjjohanne]

I have a fear. I fear that someone on the Internet is going to create a search engine that performs facial recognition math on images on the web. Then information that is associated with one image can be linked to images elsewhere that appear to be the same person. Basically, someone searches my name and finds pictures of me from my public life, and finds pictures some random person took with their camera phone of me en-femme. I heard a rumor that Facebook started down this road, but I don't know any details. Are my fears realistic? I figure it is too late to worry now... If it happens, I will blush and confess. But my wife would be upset because her worst fears about my dressing would be realized.

[NathalieX66]

How would your wife find out that you have this secret double life? Will she seek search engines that do facial recognition? What does she know about crossdressers?

Unless you are a politician, or movie star or a pro sports star, you don't have much to lose.

You crossdress, you take pictures of yourself.....and you love your wife. Why not have a heart-to-heart talk with her as to why you feel the need to crossdress, and get the fears out of the way. Lies hurt,and so do dirty secrets. .....that's guaranteed damage.

As for facial recogniton software, so what? I'm all over the net. I also try to make sure my pictures are write-protected so some creep somewhere isn't sending my photos to his friends.
if my employer found out from surfing the net, well, what are they doing here?

[Ashley Allison]

If Facebook did that, it would be a privacy violation.

[cassandra54]

even if there was facial recognition, i think your face as a woman would look different, so i wouldn't worry too much.

[Cassandra Lynn]

Paranoia will destroya......:cp:

Everyone keep a close eye on the sky and let me know when you see that first pig fly, till then, why bother getting excited? :wn:

[Kaz]

There is facial recognition software out there already, terrorism has a lot to answer for.. but really our faces are not that unique. The software does measurements between features basically (and a bit more)... but just think about it. Who is going to resource a 'spot the CD' campaign... what would it achieve? what would be the return on the IMMENSE cost of the technology and the manpower? If someone with that technology was targeting you, I suspect CDing was the least of your problems!

And by the way... the technology isn't that good yet... Scarlet Rose is bang-on... at the moment it just helps the authorities to eliminate people rather than confirm identity...

There are far easier ways to work out who people are...!

[Sally24]

Facial recognition is somewhat like how people recognize faces. Key items like eyebrows and the overall shape of the face are some of the things it uses. What is currently available only works well if you have a small number of faces you are trying to match to, like a terrorism watch list. If you had to try to match random pictures to millions of faces you would have hundreds of thousands of possible matches. In reality you are much more likely to have a random person who knows you, regognize you or the background in your pictures. If that is a concern of yours than simple don't share pictures of yourself.

[danielletorresani]

Someone finding my secret is a huge fear for me. That's why I only share pics with my face privately to a very select few, never publicly.

[Intertwined]

First off, " Big Brother " knows all, every e-mail you have ever sent, every post you have ever made, every phone call you have ever made, has been recorded, scanned and stored.

As for me wearing a skirt and heels, I scream it at the top of my lungs, my employer knows, most of my family knows, and the only reason some don't, is I know it would make them uncomfortable.

If it is something you don't want the hole world to know, don't post it, don't e-mail it, don't tell anyone, and deffinetaly don't go out your front door, cameras are everywhere.

You know I went to GOOGLE street view, and was able to look in my living room window... if I had been standing there, that image would be on the net. Come to think of it, the window I just mentioned, is that one behind me in my avatar to the LEFT. Yes the blinds are closed, that was only to prevent a poor photo from back-lighting

[SweetIonis]

The software does measurements between features basically (and a bit more)



Facial recognition is somewhat like how people recognize faces. Key items like eyebrows and the overall shape of the face are some of the things it uses..

There are several types of facial recognition algorithms. The ones that both of you have touched on are what are known as model based algorithms. Some of the older facial recognition algorithms are model based and they are based on models of the face that examine things like space between eyes, etc. However there is another POWERFUL class of algorithms that have come to prominence very recently, and they are based on statistical analysis of the image data itself, WITHOUT ANY REFERENCE WHATSOEVER to a model of the face. They are called image based algorithms. One of these uses Principal Component Analysis to analyse the image. Basically what happens is that known image data is converted into a vector. Then the covariance matrix is computed for this vector. Then the eigenvalues and eigenvectors of the covariance matrix are computed. Then the eigenvectors whose associated eigenvalues are the largest are used as an orthogonal basis set from which the image to be matched is compared. This is because they represent the largest variance. I said all that to say that these algorithms are very powerful in that they do not depend on a model of the face, such as looking at the curvature of the eye sockets, etc. They merely operate on the data and have proven to be quite effective.

I posted a few items in this regard a while ago. I think it would be good for people to read these to get an idea of the problems that could arise in this regard. Here's another article:

Facial Recognition Software Takes One Glance at You and Brings Up Your Facebook Profile
(http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2011-08/facial-recognition-software-matches-your-face-your-online-identity)

[Diane Smith]

If Facebook did that, it would be a privacy violation.

As if that has ever stopped Facebook from doing anything it wanted to in the past ...

- Diane

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

Oh my god, u are joking Intertwined. Oh well the truth is out, I want to be a female, yes its true.
So will facial recognition work on angled images?

[Cindy Louise]

Someone finding my secret is a huge fear for me. That's why I only share pics with my face privately to a very select few, never publicly.

Mine too and I got quite a shock the other day when I did a Google image scan on my name and on the third page there I was.

[SweetIonis]

Mine too and I got quite a shock the other day when I did a Google image scan on my name and on the third page there I was.

That's the only way I do it too Cindy. I'm surprised that happened to you. Can you tell us how that came about. That should not happen if the persons that you shared with kept them private. Damn!

[Inna]

It is important to bring the issue of pixels into perspective, if the image is simply too small and pixel ratio does not allow for a clear definition, face recognition will not be possible.

Hence my new avatar: 164177

[adriane]

We all have our secrets in life, even those who would think about using such technologies. Most people by now have posted their picture on a website, be them dressed, either looking for a date, on an "exotic" type of website, or something else that they would not want others to know about. Chances are that those who would do this would fear it being done to them as well, as others could play this kind of game, especially those who have been hurt by someone intentionally. I would not worry about it too much.

[sterling12]

[QUOTE=SweetIonis;2589582]There are several types of facial recognition algorithms. The ones that both of you have touched on are what are known as model based algorithms. Some of the older facial recognition algorithms are model based and they are based on models of the face that examine things like space between eyes, etc. However there is another POWERFUL class of algorithms that have come to prominence very recently, and they are based on statistical analysis of the image data itself, WITHOUT ANY REFERENCE WHATSOEVER to a model of the face. They are called image based algorithms. One of these uses Principal Component Analysis to analyse the image. Basically what happens is that known image data is converted into a vector. Then the covariance matrix is computed for this vector. Then the eigenvalues and eigenvectors of the covariance matrix are computed. Then the eigenvectors whose associated eigenvalues are the largest are used as an orthogonal basis set from which the image to be matched is compared. This is because they represent the largest variance. I said all that to say that these algorithms are very powerful in that they do not depend on a model of the face, such as looking at the curvature of the eye sockets, etc. They merely operate on the data and have proven to be quite effective.

Suddenly, I have a splitting headache! Ionis,Hon! Can you put that into simple, understandable English for The Rest of Us? I'm sure it's interesting, but I misplaced my Degree from MIT. Pretend we are watching "Nova." There has to be a way for Lay-People to get The Gist of what you are referring to, without The Jargon.

As stated earlier, can't even imagine why our O.P. is so concerned about this? Since she's not a Terrorist, not The Center of The Universe, not famous, why would anyone invest The Bucks and effort to try and figure out whom her male-self is? (Side Bar on this: Even if your a member of the local school board, or Dog Catcher, or something similar....no, your not important enough for anyone else to care!)

Sometimes we get threads on here that seem to be inspired to create paranoia, and other unreasoning fears. Enough of these "End of The World Scenarios!" It's very hard to get people to just accept themselves and to try and grow. Scaring them with Wild-Ass, Fantasy, Stories; that's really counter-productive.

Peace and Love, Joanie

[SweetIonis]

Suddenly, I have a splitting headache! Ionis,Hon! Can you put that into simple, understandable English for The Rest of Us? I'm sure it's interesting, but I misplaced my Degree from MIT. Pretend we are watching "Nova." There has to be a way for Lay-People to get a Gist of what you are referring to, without The Jargon.


LMAO!!!

Sorry. Hell that's the only way I know how to talk now, without going to my native ghetto dialect!!!

Look, like I said, I said all that to say, that the state of the art in face recognition algorithms are the ones that use math to analyze the facial data itself, rather than looking specifically at the features of a face. These algorithms don't know anything about an eye, an ear, a nose, or a mouth. All they know is the math. They know how to compute a covariance matrix. They know how to compute the eigenvalues and eigenvectors of that covariance matrix. And they know how to compare that data with an image of your face, that someone might take. Some earlier posters where talking about some model based methods as opposed to the image based ones, like what I just described. They may not be aware that facial recognition technology has improved drastically recently. It's much, much better now.

Here's a link that explains what recently some researchers where able to do with some facial recognition software and as a result why posting a picture on social networking sites poses a security risk:

Researcher: Profile pics on social networks a privacy risk (http://www.networkworld.com/news/2011/080511-researcher-profile-pics-on-social.html?hpg1=bn)

I posted this a while back in another thread. It may help put some light on why this is something that folks should worry about:

I explained this to someone in a PM. I'm going to repeat what I basically told them. Let's suppose you are out on the town and someone sees that you have a nice car. Theoretically speaking someone who doesn't know you, could infer that you would be a suitable target, take a picture of you and steal your identity to access your bank account, credit cards, or find out your address and rob you. That's just one scenario. That should give you an idea about the kind of risk involved. Now let's say you get into an argument with someone who is vindictive and your relationship with that person deteriorates. That person armed with simply your picture could get your personal information, pretend to be you and take all the money out of your bank account, or max out your credit cards.

[Phoebe P.]

I'm not saying you're not, but are you that important that someone will be searching for you? I'm one in about 3 billion people on Earth and I've got some things that might get people searching for me, but I don't think I would be tops in anyone's list of people to search for. The only reason I haven't posted any pics yet is b/c I don't have a wig yet and have a bit of a Jamie Lee Curtis hairstyle going on!

[SweetIonis]

I'm not saying you're not, but are you that important that someone will be searching for you? I'm one in about 3 billion people on Earth and I've got some things that might get people searching for me, but I don't think I would be tops in anyone's list of people to search for. The only reason I haven't posted any pics yet is b/c I don't have a wig yet and have a bit of a Jamie Lee Curtis hairstyle going on!

The point is that you don't have to be important anymore. Researchers have shown that using facial recognition software that is not difficult to obtain, and using data from social networking sites that anyone has access to, it will be possible for someone walking down the street to see you, get your picture and retrieve you personal information. It used to be that to do that type of thing, you had to have the resources that are available to large corporations or the government. Not so anymore. You don't have to be important.

[Cynthia Anne]

All I can say is; when 'they'go searching I hope they find me! 'Cause I've been lost for years!:eek::D Hugs!

[sterling12]

Yeah, but what I infer from The Article is that "They can't do it yet!" Those Folks at Carnegie-Mellon where doing some Research Work, it took a TEAM to do it, and they still could only produce results less than a quarter of The Time. Lesson to be Learned? (Per The Article) "Don't have your Mug posted on Facebook!"

Now, it likely The Folks at Homeland Security have gotten hold of something similar, and are probably deploying it. But, I can't even imagine that down in The Underground Bunker, The Guys at NSA are sitting around one night, and somebody says: "Ah, screw that Looking for Terrorist's Stuff." "Tonight, lets take a look at pictures of Crossdressers and see if we can spot some of them, and reveal their true identities!" Somehow, I have a feeling their "priorities" are going in different directions.

Even if in The Future criminals get hold of this software, and want to use it for bad purposes? They have one over-riding Goal. They want to make MONEY off their victims. Once again, can't imagine that we would be very important to them. Most of us, have nothing, nor will we ever acquire anything. Are we good Blackmail Subjects? I doubt it. Usual Answer for one of us: "Hey, go ahead and Out Me!" "I was going to do that next week on my own." I think they might want to get into your checking account, but Blackmail you because your Trans? Ain't going to happen.

It's not a bad idea to let people know about new technology, and possible future risks imposed by criminals. But, to make them Crazy over very long-odds, future possibilities, seems unreasonable.

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Genifer Teal]

As if that has ever stopped Facebook from doing anything it wanted to in the past ...

- Diane

I'm not sure if you are all being sacrastic or what. This has been available for a while now on FB.http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/facebook-facial-recognition-feature-raises-eyebrows/story?id=13792666

[Sally24]

"I posted this a while back in another thread."

If you follow the link you'll see they were dealing with posed full face photos and matching them to similar (and maybe exactly the same) pictures. They were also dealing with small populations. I find it funny that they were so impressed the could guess the first few numbers of their social security numbers. Those are determined by where and when you applied for your numbers. Then they just have to guess which of 9,999 number combinations follows that. Easy, right. lol

The truth is, any of these softwares are using a 2 dimensional photo to map a 3 dimensional face. Changing the shape and angle of eyebrows, applying shading to change the apparent shape of the cheekbones and altering the shape of the lips will cause untold problems for the software to match female photos to male photos.

Anyone who is seriously worried about any of this should just do a little PhotoShop on their photos. Any amount of distortion would make it impossible for a computer match.

[Ellyn]

Incase you are interested, here is a history of Facebook. http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12685

I would not touch Facebook with a ten foot pole. Nonetheless, "they" have enough intelligence on everyone as it is. "They" have a virtual world computer which has everyone (or soon will) in the world, along with data about their beliefs, politics, health, capabilities, etc. As far as up to date photography, take a look at what was done in BC, Canada, following a hockey riot. http://www.gigapixel.com/image/gigapan-canucks-g7.html
Put your cursor anywhere on the crowd and double-click a couple of times and just wait or use the scroll button in the centre of your mouse.

You can zero in on one single face. The clarity is unbelievable. This is scary. You can see - perfectly - the face of every single individual - and there were thousands! Privacy - forget it. With face-recognition software just think what the police have at their disposal. So don't get up to any mischief, even in a crowd you can be singled out. BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING.

[Intertwined]

Oh my god, u are joking Intertwined. Oh well the truth is out, I want to be a female, yes its true.
So will facial recognition work on angled images?

No joke, but the Government does not care about a bunch of guys in dresses... NCIS / FBI / DHS are not going to be beating down your door, this system is supposed to be for finding the " Bad Guys " like terrorists, could the information be used for something else, sure... But I will say it again, the people with this technology do not care about crossdressers, we are not a threat, yet :devil:

[SweetIonis]

Yeah, but what I infer from The Article is that "They can't do it yet!" Those Folks at Carnegie-Mellon where doing some Research Work, it took a TEAM to do it, and they still could only produce results less than a quarter of The Time. Lesson to be Learned? (Per The Article) "Don't have your Mug posted on Facebook!"



What that team did, I could do by myself if I had the money to pay myself from missing work for a couple of years. And I don't even work in that area. I read a couple of papers on facial recognition using model based analysis and image based analysis. I don't find them that difficult to understand. There are people a lot smarter than me doing that kind of stuff. They have proved the concept. That's the important thing. It's just a matter of time.


"I posted this a while back in another thread."

If you follow the link you'll see they were dealing with posed full face photos and matching them to similar (and maybe exactly the same) pictures. They were also dealing with small populations.

I hear what you are saying. But first of all it would not be that hard for someone to get a good picture of you, with a good camera, simply by seeing you on the street. The next thing, I think your point about large populations is not valid, IF the images are good enough. If you used a very good statistical analysis approach, I don't think it's likely to produce duplicates. However I could be wrong. If you have some a link to some information that would prove otherwise, I would like to see it. Either that or you give a decent account of why what you say is the case.


I find it funny that they were so impressed the could guess the first few numbers of their social security numbers. Those are determined by where and when you applied for your numbers. Then they just have to guess which of 9,999 number combinations follows that. Easy, right. lol

Computers now are capable of doing millions of such comparisons a second now. It's not as hard as you might think. Hackers use such technology, known as brute force algorithms, all the time to break into sites.



The truth is, any of these softwares are using a 2 dimensional photo to map a 3 dimensional face. Changing the shape and angle of eyebrows, applying shading to change the apparent shape of the cheekbones and altering the shape of the lips will cause untold problems for the software to match female photos to male photos.

Anyone who is seriously worried about any of this should just do a little PhotoShop on their photos. Any amount of distortion would make it impossible for a computer match.

That may be so for a model based algorithm, but one based on statistical analysis would prove more difficult. However if you distort your face enough of course you would be right, that is the case. But I think that would have to be more than changing the shape of the eyebrows. Your eyebrows form a small part of that image. The covariance, on which PCA is based, is based on the entire image. There are so many other places in the image that would contribute to a large variance. And that is really the key, they are matching that large variance, at least in that particular approach. In summary I disagree with your ANY amount assertion.

[Kerigirl2009]

The computer I am using now has facial recgonition program on which allows for me to only access my computer without having to type in any passwords.

The program is very picky BUT even in girl mode IT WORKS. I have four kids and my wife and NOPE they cannot get past it without a password.
So I guess I look the same in Guy mode and Girl mode (DAMN) But that is not going to stop me
I figure if someone recgonizes a picture of me while in girl mode then so what. Im still going to be me and if they dont like me afterwards, they where not a friend anyways.
I would not worry about it.

[lingerieLiz]

Picasa's desktop version already has it. It is a rather crude version. The bad thing about Picasa when you set it up and don't pay attention it searches the whole drive looking for pictures.

Local police have a new handheld scanner that they use. It doesn't require that Facebook runs the software. Google and many others crawl Facebook.

Most of the facial recognition software scans the geometric patterns of the face. Lots of people working on it for security purposes etc. Someday it will be as good as in the movies. The people that run the software aren't looking for you unless you plan on doing something bad.

Your biggest threat is leaving pictures on your computer for someone to find.

[Cristi]

What some people do not understand yet is yes, this technology is in its infancy right now, but before you know it it will mature and the hardware 'horsepower' needed to do it will be on every desktop.

So many things we take for granted today would have required a super computer 10 years ago. I have seen enough of these things become 'every day tools' enough to know that someday, sooner than we think, we'll have a tool on something like Google Images that says 'Find more photos of this person'. So you click on a vacation photo of me in drab, and it pulls up all of my Cristi photos! Oops.

Even if I look a BIT different and might fool somebody at a casual glance, the first think they'll notice is that in many of the shots you also see my yard, my deck, parts of the house... enough for anybody to say 'Hmmm... Maybe it IS him'.

Just think of the things that we have now that were undreamed of 20 years ago. iPhones, Google Maps, digital cameras and camcorders, heck even the every day google search. Is this REALLY so far out of the question for another 5-10 years down the line? I don't think it is.

All I can hope is that by that time any photos I have put up on this site will be so lost in the archives that they'll never be found by the search indexes. And if it DOES start to come true, it would be a good time to ask the site admins to consider purging photos in locked threads if the user requests it, but even that might not help since there are sites like the 'wayback machine' Internet Archive that archive huge chunks of the Internet that can be searched any time, even if the original content longer exists.

[Ellyn]

Maybe the government does not care today, but who knows what they will focus on in the future. I have read several times about crossdressing among attendies of the high level gatherings at Bohemian Grove. For example: http://apocalypticawareness.wordpress.com/

It seems we are living more and more in the world George Orwell foretold in his book "1984". One of the events in "1984" refers to one of Winston Smith's friends, Spender, as a "pansy friend". The future may turn out to be less tolerant than we wish it to be.

[Phoebe P.]

I guess since I'm self-employed I can't imagine why anyone would want to search for me. I wouldn't call myself "important". I'm just a guy. Why would anyone search for me?

[onceinawhile]

:eek:O God, this is why I've been so reticent; and now that I am coming out a little, I can't sleep at night. The internet is really the akashic records of old. Everything is stored forever. Was Lincoln gay? With the internet we'd have known for sure. We all play a little; maybe a little too hard. Should we fear exposure? I think we need to be discreet; as for a face recognition technology, our identities are there if anyone wants them bad enough already. I try to be tasteful, in case someone should see my picture I would say it's not me but if it was it looks pretty good.

[DebbieL]

If you are a political figure, especially a TEA Party Republican, then you probably have something to worry about. And yes, such software does exist and if you have security clearance or are a person of interest in a criminal investigation - then there probably is a record of your aliases, both masculine and feminine.

I was "outed" publicly several years ago. I had been posting a bunch of pro-Linux advocacy articles, and one of the WinTrolls managed to find something I had posted in alt.personals 10 years earlier - and tried to shame me into silence.

I haven't kept it a secret since I came out as Debbie back in 1988. When the personal was posted, I gave them the facts. That I had been divorced about 2 years, a girlfriend who was supportive had left me for a "real man", and I wanted someone who could enjoy Debbie. Ironically, the attempt to shame me back-fired. With my honesty, others were inspired and pretty much blasted the daylights out of the guy who tried to use this against me.

When I was doing government work, I had to list all my aliases, including Debbie Lawrence. During the backround check, they asked my references about Debbie, and each was quite willing to share their knowledge as if it was like a hobby. I got the job. Had I lied, or made it look like I could be blackmailed, I wouldn't have been accepted.

[michelle mark]

Anyone who is seriously worried about any of this should just do a little PhotoShop on their photos. Any amount of distortion would make it impossible for a computer match.

Exactly. Even the most minute change will send the software astray.

[SweetIonis]

Exactly. Even the most minute change will send the software astray.

Not so! This is especially true for image based algorithms. Even some of the better model based ones will not be fooled by "minute" changes.