CrossDressing......what is it????????

[Inna]

As an elite member of the "Controversial Society" I feel pressured to invoke such mind bending and bark provoking subjects such as the above mentioned.

I shall endeavor an explanation or in the least, attempt understanding of why is CrossDressing so hard to get by the main stream understanding

For all you Label, No Label advocates, put your keyboards away for this is no attempt to box somebody in the FedEx confinement but to understand...................I am sure there shall be some who just oppose understanding as well but then, I say to them "just don't" and everything will be just fine and dandy"( George Carlin thought that existence of Fine and dandy together was impossible as well :))


OkeeeeDokeee:

I believe (again, my own personal, assumption, NOT learned scientifically proven fact, may be hazardous to your health if ingested!) that crossdressing for man is quite different as it would be for woman. Many here suggest that acceptance of crossdressing in main society should be widespread because woman do it all the time. However, I feel that sexuality attached to the process of dressing is the culprit of differentiation.

When woman dresses in typically male attire, her approach is quite different to that of her male counterpart. She puts on slacks or jeans and still remains a "woman" same sensual charge, same attitude, same person. When a crossdresser puts on a dress, skirt, lingerie or heels he becomes she or someone other then original. This difference is purely sensually-sexual. Man does not become a woman through this act as well as woman does not become a man physically however man becomes woman or an expression of other then man through sensuality and internal experience when woman still remains just the same.


So I would argue that acceptance of Crossdressing in main stream is harder for man because of the sensual/sexual nature of the act versus normalcy (well, I suppose you could argue ) of woman's crossdressing.

Your Thoughts:

[pinto]

So I would argue that acceptance of Crossdressing in main stream is harder for man because of the sensual/sexual nature of the act versus normalcy (well, I suppose you could argue ) of woman's crossdressing.
Your Thoughts:

I agree completely. If you crossdress as a man or if you even attempt to wear a bra, panties etc. you are considered to be a pervert but if a woman dresses even more vice vera then she is considered to be "just a little masculine, casual or whatever" - not pervert, behold a woman cannot be pervert. So that's another reason to have the desire to be a woman.

[kimdl93]

I agree. In part, our society suffers a long lingering Victorian attitudes towards anything sexual. Or another way of putting it, Americans react to anything even mildly erotic like third grade boys - with a combination of mock offense, embarrassment and intense curiosity. And for American males, CDing, though it often begins as a non-sexual interest in things feminine, morphs during the teenage years into a fetish. (Not that there's anything wrong with CDing as a fetish). Its easy to lose sight of the other motivations when your a highly arroused teen. So, we come into adulthood - CDrs and general public alike, making an association between CDing and sex...and because in America sex is naughty at best, CDing is tarred by the same brush.

Add to that the somewhat faulty association between CDing and sexual preference.

[Kaitlyn26]

As an elite member of the "Controversial Society" I feel pressured to invoke such mind bending and bark provoking subjects such as the above mentioned.

I shall endeavor an explanation or in the least, attempt understanding of why is CrossDressing so hard to get by the main stream understanding

For all you Label, No Label advocates, put your keyboards away for this is no attempt to box somebody in the FedEx confinement but to understand...................I am sure there shall be some who just oppose understanding as well but then, I say to them "just don't" and everything will be just fine and dandy"( George Carlin thought that existence of Fine and dandy together was impossible as well :))


OkeeeeDokeee:

I believe (again, my own personal, assumption, NOT learned scientifically proven fact, may be hazardous to your health if ingested!) that crossdressing for man is quite different as it would be for woman. Many here suggest that acceptance of crossdressing in main society should be widespread because woman do it all the time. However, I feel that sexuality attached to the process of dressing is the culprit of differentiation.

When woman dresses in typically male attire, her approach is quite different to that of aher male counterpart. She puts on slacks or jeans and still remains a "woman" same sensual charge, same attitude, same person. When a crossdresser puts on a dress, skirt, lingerie or heels he becomes she or someone other then original. This difference is purely sensually-sexual. Man does not become a woman through this act as well as woman does not become a man physically however man becomes woman or an expression of other then man through sensuality and internal experience when woman still remains just the same.


So I would argue that acceptance of Crossdressing in main stream is harder for man because of the sensual/sexual nature of the act versus normalcy (well, I suppose you could argue ) of womans crossdressing.

Your Thoughts:

I don't know, George Carlin got in the plane instead of on the plane. Sounds like a smart guy to me. :p

My thoughts? Cross dressing goes beyond clothing choice. A man can choose to wear more feminine attire without the need or desire to add the mannerisms. Women can and do wear more manly attire and do not change their mannerisms. Cross dressers seek to fully replicate womanhood. It's not a fair comparison to compare a GG in a t-shirt and jeans, to a man with makeup and a dress on. A more realistic comparison would be between a woman in a t-shirt and jeans, compared to a "metro sexual" male wearing whatever stylish but decidedly "frilly" clothing he felt like wearing. A friend of mine frequently wears clothes that are for men, but are styled to be more feminine. He's a fair approximation to what you mentioned as a "cross dressing" female. He's also widely accepted in his masculinity (the same way our hypothetical woman in jeans is), and well liked.

If you want to compare cross dressing across the genders properly, you need to change your expectation of the female cross dresser to include a genuine attempt to represent the male gender. Add a beard, loose fitting jeans that are not styled for a woman's body, a Pantera t-shirt, a Mo-Hawk, a nose ring, a few manly tattoos drawn on for fun, and taped breasts, and now you're getting closer to the female version of what the majority of male cross dressers are doing. Also steadily moving away from the easy acceptance. :)

A woman in jeans that are intended to be worn by a woman, a t-shirt, a bra, and a bit of makeup is not cross dressing. She's dressing down or dressing casually. The reason for it is probably comfort, not because she really wants to feel like a man, or look like one. Again, the majority of cross dressers seek to look like a woman. Otherwise we wouldn't have so many threads about breast forms around here.

I would also like to add that many women may wear guy's clothing but they rarely incorporate more than one manly item into an outfit. Just some quick examples of integration that you're likely to see a GG wearing.

Baggy t-shirt, somewhat form fitting jeans, flip flops or girl's tennis shoes.

Baggy guy's shorts, tank top or form fitting shirt, girl's tennis shoes.

BDU's, punkish asexual shoes or maybe even combat boots, girl's t-shirt that's slightly form fitting.

Any of these outfits are something you may see a GG wearing. It does not represent them as cross dressers though.

[Marie-Elise]

So, there's a psychological aspect to it as well as physical? Physiological, if you will. I agree with that. I would go further and say there is also a physiological effect upon observers of the crossdresser.

Considering the propogation of the physiological effect, one could make a parallel between it and effects documented in quantum physics where the simple act of observing light results in a change in its behavior. In case anyone isn't familiar with it, you can find an explanation here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment). And here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc) is a video that might be easier to understand.

This, however, doesn't happen when a woman wears men's clothes. Or, at least, the effect is different (maybe less).

[noeleena]

Hi.Inna.

What does it mean to a group of men & women who dress in dress's skirt's tight's all in the main colourfull head wear, some pointy shoes boot's most carry a pouch , knife's or dagger's thier drinking tankard's , & some thier eating gear, getting the clue's
No one say's oh dear your a male in a dress. or skirt, so why then , the difference now to those people then.

1400 to 1700. Renaissance . im a member of our group. we all dress in said clothes .....no , garb......

For us theres no .....SUCH.....thing as a cross ........, what did you say........ dresser. well no we are wearing what my forefathers wore, oh apart form my scottish people who'v gone before.

So why is it not accptable for you males to day yet was back then . i'll leave you to answer that..

Who said its not acceptable . why. & by whos athroity . no body that i know of & nore those book's = letters that were writen some 6 odd 1000 years or so ago. or reported to . so who changed peoples thinking in this latter time of hmmmmm western thinking.

those men who i know are real men tall strong carrying heavy armour & fighting in the tourny's = ring. & i would not wont to be wacked by them . oh we do have two women in the ring as well. & i thought i was strong.....not a patch on them .i'm so glad im a woman i dont have to fight, i'll stay with the Archers .

...noeleena...

[sissystephanie]

I don't believe that crossdressing is different for men, any more than it is for women. If it is different than that thought is in the mind of that individual! I am certainly a crossdresser, but I don't get any sexual urges or anything like that when I dress enfemme! I dress simply because I like to, not for any other reason!! And I think a great many CD's would agree with me!!

[Gillian Gigs]

I see the difference being mentioned that a woman can put on guy clothes and for the most part everyone still knows that they are a girl. With many CD'ers the goal is to emulate womanhood. That in itself is ok, but with this emulation comes the sexy look, and that confuses our society. I would guess that they are asking questions like, " are they trying to get picked up"? Then the macho types, that are homo-phobic, freak out and get upset because they have allowed themselves to be decieved into thinking that the CD'er is something that they are not. So, what is the answer, the only two things that I can think of are, 1, don't go out in public dressed in any way that could draw attention to yourself. Or, 2, wear the clothes and look like a guy until everyone gets so used to seeing a CD'er that it becomes second nature, and no one thinks about it any more. A massive education program could also help, the truth about something can only lead to understanding and then acceptance. I guess that is why I am mainly an underdresser, I would never pass in the first place, and hence I attempt to make the best of both worlds.

Maybe if we all started by shaving our legs and wore pantyhose while wearing short pants, people would get used to it. Then we would move on to a skirt instead of short pants, and so on until nobody gave it a second thought. Going back to the orginal question, so what are we corporately, or individually attempting to accomplish? If we just want to wear the clothes, that is one thing, but if we are attempting to emulate womanhood that is something else. Everyone has to decide for themselves and act accordingly.

[Inna]

I can see how several posters misunderstood the difference and argued sexuality this or sexuality that. In fact, sexuality has nothing to do with it, it may, but it doesn't in the aspect I am after, hence my use of the word SENSUALITY. I am not sure what other word is best in describing an emotional charge associated with presenting one self as that of another physical gender.

Fact remains males who crossdress do so to project, to personify, to feel, to embody the image and/or feeling of female persona. Such is not found in the average woman who dresses in male designated fashion (unless she is a transman in transition). If every woman who put on slacks and button up long sleeve shirt would then proceed to scratch her crotch, spit in the gutter, and text while driving and still handle car in race-car driver fashion then society would definitely look differently on them as they do look at male crossdresser.

In the essence, crossdressing males project an image of a woman where crossdressing women project the image of them selves, a woman

[ReineD]

For all you Label, No Label advocates, put your keyboards away for this is no attempt to box somebody in the FedEx confinement but to understand ...

Isn't achieving some understanding the purpose behind defining labels? :)




When woman dresses in typically male attire,

I get your point and I"m not wanting to be picky, but when I wear jeans I do not consider that I am dressing in typically male attire. I would if I bought Levis in the men's department though. They fit differently.

What was once considered typically male attire is no longer.



So I would argue that acceptance of Crossdressing in main stream is harder for man because of the sensual/sexual nature of the act versus normalcy (well, I suppose you could argue ) of woman's crossdressing.

This may be true for people who believe that the CDing is perverted. But, there are people I believe who do sense that CDing is more than that, and they do not respect a man who wishes to "weaken" himself. Nor do they respect "butch" women (and by this I am not talking about women who wear jeans). I sometimes wonder if the insistence that genders maintain a degree of separation is not hard wired in society's ethos, if only for the basic instinct of propagation and survival.

[Sooty]

What is cross dressing?

The opposite of happy dressing.

simples

[kendra_gurl]

In the essence, crossdressing males project an image of a woman where crossdressing women project the image of them selves, a woman

I agree with this and your OP but was just thinking how many times the wife and I have been out in public and asked each other "is that a man or a woman?' and 99% of the time it is a female who just does not look like a typical female at all. I don't classify these females as crossdressers as much as just someone who cares less about their appearance same as some men do.

I understand your point that most crossdressers do purposely make the attempt to make others believe that they are female by not only their clothing but the makeup, hair and mannerisms they show. Sure there are those who present as male wearing feminine things but they are not who your OP was about.

To make your point easier to understand, Women wear a bra because they need the support not because they enjoy the way a bra feels. Even women in jeans and a shirt typically still wear a bra.

So why does a crossdresser wear a bra and breast forms. Some say they love the way it feels (and this may be true in the short time they wear them) but I think its more for the need to create the illusion of having breast and help the overall illusion of presenting as a female.

There really is nothing easier and more comfortable for casual wear than jeans and a t-shirt whether your male or female so I think those who argue women who wear them are dressing male is old and worn out and needs to be put to rest

With all the coverage lately about the transgendered community (which is helping in understanding them) I think this will make every male crossdresser seen by the public as someone wanting to be female in some manner. Not just a Male wearing something a little feminine

I am a Crossdresser and I try my best to make anyone who might see me while dressed think I am just another female like the rest of the females they see. I don't see any need or reason for males to attempt to change the way males typically dress by wearing femininely styled clothing unless your are a crossdresser at heart.

Without the makeup and hair and mannerisms its only clothing and just clothing will never make you feel feminine.

[Kaitlyn26]

Isn't achieving some understanding the purpose behind defining labels?

Defining a label or a parameter is the basis for a fair comparison. Without a fair comparison it's difficult to come to any understanding, and it's also difficult to support your opinion without offering fair comparison, or something else that can define the situation. :thumbsup:

[vetobob9]

When women crossdress they are accepted as being female without having to portray as male. But if a guy wants to crossdress, if he wants acceptance, he has to present as female. It is understandable why some would see this as a double standard.

This is one idea as to why men present as female when they crossdress where as most women do not present as male when they cross dress. If you present as female, people might gawk or stare, but you are less likely to seen as a sexual deviant or child molester than you would be if you presented yourself as, for example, simply a dude running around in a dress.

There is social pressure for male crossdressers to present as female, if only, to make it more likely for society to accept them. But even at that, society is only now beginning to accept transgender crossdressers. If you are not TG, then your crossdressing is less likely to be acceptable to society at large, which is unfortunate.

[ReineD]

When women crossdress

I don't ever see any women who crossdress. I see women who wear clothes designed for a woman's body and purchased in women's clothing stores.

I would be crossdressing if I were to buy my clothes and shoes in the men's department, have a male haircut, tape my breasts, perhaps glue on eyebrows and a beard shadow, and pack. And if I did that, I would be no more accepted than the MtF CDs. Just ask the transmen.

This topic was done to death here (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?150664).
.

[SweetIonis]

As an elite member of the "Controversial Society" I feel pressured to invoke such mind bending and bark provoking subjects such as the above mentioned.

I am surely a member of that great and noble society! No wonder I like u!!!



When woman dresses in typically male attire, her approach is quite different to that of her male counterpart. She puts on slacks or jeans and still remains a "woman" same sensual charge, same attitude, same person. When a crossdresser puts on a dress, skirt, lingerie or heels he becomes she or someone other then original. This difference is purely sensually-sexual. Man does not become a woman through this act as well as woman does not become a man physically however man becomes woman or an expression of other then man through sensuality and internal experience when woman still remains just the same.


Inna, just a couple of points from my perspective. The first is that when I first started, it would be the clothes that invoked this feeling of being a member of the opposite sex. Somewhere along the way it became reversed and the feelings became MUCH, MUCH stronger. Now it's those feelings that make me want to be dressed in a different way, but I will feel that way regardless of how I am dressed. The other thing I noticed is that my experience is that, if I let my self stay dressed, for days, in sleeping and in waking, it's like the sexual component of the thing disappears, and it becomes a behavioral thing. In terms of behavior, I noticed I become more patient, I can tolerate things better, and I become more concerned with my physical surroundings having an aesthetic appeal, among other things. Of course I guess there is an underlying sensual component to all that, but it's not so overt in that case.

Just saying.

The other thing I wanted to say is that for some women, cross dressing is a matter of expressing a gender ID that is different from that implied by their natal sex. In that case, I think it becomes more controversial.

[Jessica86]

I guess it's all in who you ask what is cross dressing to. If you ask me, its a mystical, uncurable disease (LOL). Symptoms include seeing pink and purple, shopping ebay constantly, enjoyment of being sexy, and actually having the mature intellect to accept and embrace a harmless behavior. Oh, and did I mention it's contagious?:heehee:

[SweetIonis]

I would be crossdressing if I were to buy my clothes and shoes in the men's department, have a male haircut, tape my breasts, perhaps glue on eyebrows and a beard shadow, and pack. And if I did that, I would be no more accepted than the MtF CDs. Just ask the transmen.


I don't agree with that at all. I think it's cross dressing in it's strictest sense, when a person, by their choice of dress, engages in expressing their feeling of a gender identification that is different from the one implied by their natal sex, regardless of whether the clothes were designed for their natal sex or not. For example, there are shoes that are designed for MtoF crossdressers, that you do not buy in the women's shoe department, that are specifically for the purpose of cross dressing. Over and above that, I don't think it matters which department you buy them in or who they were designed for. What matters is the intent.

[ReineD]

Ionis, my example implied intent to present as a male.

[SweetIonis]

Reine, I see. Sorry!

[Frédérique]

When woman dresses in typically male attire, her approach is quite different to that of her male counterpart. She puts on slacks or jeans and still remains a "woman" same sensual charge, same attitude, same person. When a crossdresser puts on a dress, skirt, lingerie or heels he becomes she or someone other then original. This difference is purely sensually-sexual. Man does not become a woman through this act as well as woman does not become a man physically however man becomes woman or an expression of other then man through sensuality and internal experience when woman still remains just the same.

OK – what exactly is a “sensual charge?” I’ve never heard of that one. Please don’t fall into the trap of seeing MtF crossdressing as purely a sexual exercise, with an obvious means to an end. That may be true for some, or many, depending on who you listen to (or believe), but if you care to look beyond the surface aspect of things, you will find that there are endless variations on this “theme” of transforming a male into a female. Simply dressing as the other gender, or crossing over to the other side, cannot change the person physically, but there is a definite “internal experience” at work here, in fact the dressing may be just an expression of what is inside, aching to come out. I use the word “come” in its most innocent form on this occasion…

I would not, however, make a statement like “woman still remains the same” unless you have discussed this very issue with FtM crossdressers – I think THEY would straighten you out in no uncertain terms…
:straightface:


So I would argue that acceptance of Crossdressing in main stream is harder for man because of the sensual/sexual nature of the act versus normalcy (well, I suppose you could argue ) of woman's crossdressing. Your Thoughts:

Thanks so much for providing a space for my thoughts! I would not argue that acceptance of MtF crossdressing hinges on sexual nature vs. “normalcy.” Normal people aren’t driven by sexual urges, but crossdressers are? Is that what you’re trying to say? I’ll tell you, darling, when I dress sex is the last thing on my mind, but I’m anything but normal. Kiss me, you fool…
:kiss:

[kendra_gurl]

Here is a very simplified test..

Two males and one female are headed out to their favorite football teams game on Saturday. All three wear jeans sneakers and the teams logo Jersey.

Two of these sports fans are wearing fashionable makeup, femininely styled hair, obvious ample bustline, and long fingernails painted in the teams colors.

How many of them are considered Crossdressers?

[vetobob9]

I don't ever see any women who crossdress. I see women who wear clothes designed for a woman's body and purchased in women's clothing stores.

I would be crossdressing if I were to buy my clothes and shoes in the men's department, have a male haircut, tape my breasts, perhaps glue on eyebrows and a beard shadow, and pack. And if I did that, I would be no more accepted than the MtF CDs. Just ask the transmen.

This topic was done to death here (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?150664).
.
Not the primary point of my post but ok.

I was implying that when women were a man's shirt or pants they are free to do so and still be themselves.
For men, it is different. If you are a guy, wear a dress, skirt, bra, or any other type of women's clothing, and you present as a guy, you are considered weird and creepy. But if you present as female while wearing those things, you are more likely to be accepted or at least ignored.

The pressure is on men to present as the gender of the clothing they are wearing, otherwise they are not supposed to wear that clothing. I have yet to see women under this pressure, though there might be a few.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

When women crossdress they are accepted as being female without having to portray as male. But if a guy wants to crossdress, if he wants acceptance, he has to present as female. It is understandable why some would see this as a double standard.

There is social pressure for male crossdressers to present as female, if only, to make it more likely for society to accept them. But even at that, society is only now beginning to accept transgender crossdressers. If you are not TG, then your crossdressing is less likely to be acceptable to society at large, which is unfortunate.

No where is that pressure greater than it is on this forum. While there are plenty of people who support me for dressing the way I do, I feel a degree of resistance to it whenever I post my pics.

[TGMarla]

I'll agree with one of your points, but only as it pertains to me. When women wear clothing that at one point in history were considered male attire, they are not trying to emulate men. When I crossdress, I do a gender swap, and completely emulate a woman. I use prosthetics. Women most often do not. I crossdress, they do not.

For me, it's not all about the clothing alone, or I'd never have dropped coin on fake boobs and a wig. And no, I don't wear falsies simply because they make the dresses look and fit better. The boobs are part of the feminine experience for me. So is the wig. So is all the makeup. Women don't wear pants in order to have a masculine experience. It's like night and day, so the comparison just doesn't work.

[docrobbysherry]

I don't ever see any women who crossdress. I see women who wear clothes designed for a woman's body and purchased in women's clothing stores. .

Actually, this may have been before your time, Reine. But, it was popular for WOMEN to crossdress in a sexy, sensual manner, long before men! I still remember Doris Day and other stars of the 50's wearing their boy friend's or hubbies shirts. And, little or nothing else in a number of, "Pajama Game", type movies. It started a fad of teen girls wearing men's shirts around our town. They weren't trying to present as males. But, they WERE trying to look sexy! And, many guys thot they did!

[LeaP]

No where is that pressure greater than it is on this forum. While there are plenty of people who support me for dressing the way I do, I feel a degree of resistance to it whenever I post my pics.

Thanks for this perspective. It's an example of what I was trying to articulate in another thread - that certain kinds of behavior and expression undermine other types of transgender identity by (re)validating only the male/female poles of the spectrum. It seems most prefer to make the round trip from pole to pole. Some of us occupy the space between, where expression is less defined. The pressure is symptomatic of rejection of the middle, that one may be male or female, but somehow not both ... At least in expression & presentation.

Lea

[Steveo]

hello, first of all i'd like to say that if we believe that the transgendered comunity are different from the rest of the male gender, in as much that their jeans/hormoans/cromasoans? perhaps we have more estrigen in us, what i mean is we already feel femanin some post's on here have iluded to not dressing but still feel fem. the clothes don't make the woman, same as vice versa, if it's already part of who you are then at some point your going to adopt the clothes of that gender. i love womans clothes, but i don't need the acutremonts of wig/breast forms/ fake vagina to feel femanin, i already feel that. sorry but...steve

[Inna]

Perhaps I prematurely assumed clarity of knowledge on the vocabulary used in my post, here is the clarification:

sen·su·al

1: relating to or consisting in the gratification of the senses or the indulgence of appetite : fleshly
2: sensory 1
3: devoted to or preoccupied with the senses or appetites

As you can decipher, no mention of sexuality anywhere, it is very important to differentiate those two words from each other, they only sound similar :)

sex·u·al

1: of, relating to, or associated with sex or the sexes <sexual differentiation> <sexual conflict>
2: having or involving sex <sexual reproduction>

Hence my use of SENSUAL-SEXUAL because some crossdressers seek only gratification of senses other then sexual and then, some base it on pure sexuality, then there are those who combine both.

As to eluding to NORMALCY, simply stated, a genetic female, hetero with no desire to become male, crossdresses in male designated attire is perceived as NORMAL behavior when, hetero crossdressing male, wearing woman's clothing can't help but present female( weather he wants or not) therefore in the eye of societies scrutiny is considered a FREAK.

[LilSissyStevie]

It's a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.

[ReineD]

Actually, this may have been before your time, Reine. But, it was popular for WOMEN to crossdress in a sexy, sensual manner, long before men!

Yes, I've seen the iconic images. Marlena Dietrich comes to mind. But the motives for doing this were entirely different! You're speaking of an age when women were beginning to feel empowered. What better way to do this than to use the more angular style of men's styled clothing in order to place their inherent femininity in high contrast and thus enhance it. Like you said ... their femininity and sexiness seemed to pop in a sleek tuxedo and bright red lipstick. In contrast, the average CDer here would be mortified if he felt his masculinity was emphasized by wearing a dress.

These women were celebrating a new, stronger femininity. They were NOT crossdressing. The goal was not to present as men, but to celebrate the new womanhood. They were appropriating the power that had once been seen exclusively as a man's domain for themselves. The song by Helen Reddy encapsulates this sentiment: "I Am Woman, Hear Me Roar". :)

But, this firmly in the past. We have reached a more equal footing now and there is not even a question today that women's pants are masculine. If you tell the average woman on the street she is CDing because she is not wearing a dress, she'll think you may need a psychological evaluation. lol

[Inna]

Simply put, I will be surprised if there are any arguments regarding further posted statement, but then, surprise isn't uncommon here:

Woman wearing male specific clothing, remains feminine, in fact such brings out her feminine attributes against rigid frame of male fashion standard as well put by Reine in above post. Even though she is posing in supposedly unflattering attire, combination is not entirely demeaning, presentation of the image remains pleasing and doesn't diminish her femaleness.

Now, put an average male in a dress and immediately perception of the presented image is somewhat awkward and unfitting, I suspect our cultural conditioning is to blame because I can't find any other culprit to support such tendency in perception.

164420

[Sophie86]

I do not agree that crossdressing is defined by the intent, but I do agree that intent is what distinguishes MtF crossdressing from what the average woman is doing when she borrows her husband's shirt. The latter is still crossdressing, but to try to compare it to what we do in order to claim that there's a double standard ignores the huge difference that our intent makes.

[ReineD]

Inna, in your examples it is true the male presents a disjointed appearance while the woman does not. But, the woman still looks feminine because she is wearing a woman's shirt that is tailored to fit a woman's figure. This is subtle, but it makes all the difference, even if she is wearing it buttoned up and with a tie. Also, women's catalogs are filled with such shirts and the image therefore does not seem out of place to us. And although ties for women may not be universally worn, they are commonplace enough as a fashion statement in order to not seem out of place.

I wore a skinny red tie (with matching shoes), with a white shirt and faded jeans during the eighties and I thought the effect was quite feminine! :)

The man in your example, however, is most decidedly wearing feminine clothing and accessories that are not commonplace for men to wear and further, that have not been modified to suit a man's appearance.

If you wish to compare women who wear traditional men's styles that have been modified for women, is is better to use a pic of a man who wears traditional women's styles but modified for men. This image does not seem so disjointed:

164425

[Kaitlyn26]

As to eluding to NORMALCY, simply stated, a genetic female, hetero with no desire to become male, crossdresses in male designated attire is perceived as NORMAL behavior when, hetero crossdressing male, wearing woman's clothing can't help but present female( weather he wants or not) therefore in the eye of societies scrutiny is considered a FREAK.

In my experience that's not true. In high school I wore a women's skirt and women's pants often. I wore the full girly ensemble at times. I presented myself with my then bulging muscles, goatee, spiked hair, and an overall punkish style. I even went as far as shaving my body. No one said anything to me. I was widely accepted as a hetero male. Which wasn't even true. :) I did not wear a wig, makeup, or forms. I was clearly presenting as a man, that was wearing women's clothing. I did not have any trouble with acceptance until I wore the "real" cross dressers items.

Another guy went as far as wearing a bikini and real breast forms on the outside of his clothing. He was also widely accepted, as a man that wanted to express himself.

I suggest that you try going out in women's clothing but clearly present as a MAN. Do not shave anything in any way that a man wouldn't like (keep your arm hair and maybe even legs), do not style your hair as a woman, do not soften your eye brows, do not do anything other than get yourself ready to look like a natural MAN, and then put on your girl's clothing and leave your home. I think you'll have similar results that I've experienced.

Btw, the picture of the man you posted. Yes, I'm nearly positive he was accepted without a problem. Good example of a man, in women's clothing, being accepted. I'll bet he's smiling at an attractive woman. :)



Now, put an average male in a dress and immediately perception of the presented image is somewhat awkward and unfitting, I suspect our cultural conditioning is to blame because I can't find any other culprit to support such tendency in perception.


That's your opinion, or your misconception! Ask Marilyn Manson or Twiggy, how many women they've had chasing them as they attempt to board their tour bus in their skirts. Some people may have a problem with it, but then again no matter who you are someone will have a problem with you at some point anyways! Many people have no problem with it. Some, women especially, find a man in women's clothing attractive. It really does take a real man to wear a dress, and get away with it. If you want acceptance as the "crossdressing" females get, then you're going to need to display a clearly masculine body.

[Inna]

QUESTION then:........................IS THIS A CROSSDRESSER?????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????


164427

[Kaitlyn26]

QUESTION then:........................IS THIS A CROSSDRESSER?????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????


164427

Nope! Neither was the woman you posted, next to the man, earlier.

[ReineD]

\
Btw, the picture of the man you posted. Yes, I'm nearly positive he was accepted without a problem. Good example of a man, in women's clothing, being accepted. I'll bet he's smiling at an attractive woman. :)

Kaitlyn, I smiled when I read this because it emphasizes how much things have changed from one generation to another. When you described the attitudes in your high school, in my mind I see my son taking for granted certain gender and sexual variances that would have been shocking to most people years ago. This is a good thing and I'm very happy to see it happening. Also, I think that high school kids are more open to different forms of expression since it is a teenager's job to question everything and form his or her own identity in opposition to established norms.

Sadly, it's a different story when people go out in the more conservative work force, unless someone works in a vibrant, young creative environment.

[Kaitlyn26]

Kaitlyn, I smiled when I read this because it emphasizes how much things have changed from one generation to another. When you described the attitudes in your high school, in my mind I see my son taking for granted certain gender and sexual variances that would have been shocking to most people years ago. This is a good thing and I'm very happy to see it happening. Also, I think that high school kids are more open to different forms of expression since it is a teenager's job to question everything and form his or her own identity in opposition to established norms.

Sadly, it's a different story when people go out in the more conservative work force, unless someone works in a vibrant, young creative environment.

Tbh the "work force" and general public is not a friendly place to anyone. Everyone will label you no matter who you are. Worn out jeans and your sleeves cut off? RED NECK! Baggy jeans and a tank top? GANGSTER! Designer jeans pulled all the way up, expensive leather belt, designer shirt that's tucked in? RICH A** H***! Goth dude in girl's clothes? FREAK! I hope you understand that you're always judged in public and in the work force no matter what. How many of these people are not accepted by their families and friends though? They're probably all accepted. :) True acceptance in the work force and general public requires a highly sheepish mentality and imo should not even be considered as real acceptance. To be blunt, no one is truly accepted in public or work, as themselves. You put on a mask and you play the game, unless you want a pretty little label around your neck. :) Tbh again, we all wear a label when in public and at work. Ours just reads FREAK! None of them are particularly nice. That's life, not discrimination.

If you do as I said, and wear female clothing in those "forums" of daily life, you will get exactly as much acceptance as anyone else gets. Little to none. Most of the time those that most resemble each other in terms of "label" will be the ones to accept you, not the one wearing the opposite label.

You could also argue that by that general observation of human nature (birds of a feather, flock together), that we could raise our level of acceptance in those areas by increasing our population in those places. How many gangsters make friends with red necks? Rich people? Why should we be any different? If we want acceptance we need others to flock with. If you put a gangster in a country music concert, how will he be accepted? How about a red neck at a rap concert? A rich guy at a tranny convention? How about a red neck at a comic con?