Masculinity vs. Femininity

[BrittM]

Hey all, just wanted to pose something that's sort of an inquiry and sort of me blabbing about the aforementioned subject. So here we go.

I notice that most of our members here are much more feminine-oriented than masculine-oriented, which obviously makes sense given the nature of this forum. However, I was wondering if your femininity carries over 100% into your real life, or if it's only when you're "en femme" mindset, or dressed.

To be honest, for me, it's kind of a mixed bag. As a male, I'm extremely masculine; sometimes I can even be called a douchebag (I believe it's due to my blunt honesty...I never look to offend, I just don't like to lie just to save someone's feelings.) I'm pretty much always in boy mode--all I own is one pair of heels--and when out and about, or spending time with friends, I don't even think of my feminine side. I'm heavily into sports, and have season tickets to the Mariners and Seahawks, in fact. Haha.

When I'm just at home browsing the boards here, or talking with my one friend who knows (luckily a girl who wears the same size shoe as me!) I feel much more feminine. I love practicing my strutt in my shoes, and just moving and acting with feminine mannerisms. I feel like there's more personality in there, but I'm just now really embracing it beyond just thoughts and desires. I think I may even have a female name I'd be comfortable using if I were to get to the point of trying to pass in public.

I guess my main point here, is how extreme are your male and female selves? Is anyone else very macho when a male, but very femme when dressed? Kinda trying to get an idea on the balance you all have in your lives, and how you separate one from the other--if you do at all.

[Rachel Renee]

There are some feminine traits that carry over to my male side and for the most part, there's not a Major difference between Rachel and the male me. I do find that when dressed, certain characteristics flow more freely, mannerisms, general body language, etc, but it's not all compartamentalized like when I was younger. This integration of both masculinity and femininity is who I really am and I get a lot of comfort from that. I think this duality is part of what's so appealing about crossdressing for me, and I feel I've found a good, healthy balance. For some reason, I also like the fact that most, if not all of the people in my life would be shocked to learn about Rachel.

[Diane Smith]

I tend to be a quiet, gentle and rather self-absorbed person who would generally rather keep to herself and work on projects in isolation from others. I have absolutely no interest in sports, cars, or other typically "hyper-masculine" activities, and I affect female mannerisms most of the time. Most of my close friends throughout my life have been women, although there is a particular group of guys involved in a mutual hobby that I do hang out with more now. I do have typically "male" intellectual and hobby interests -- communications technology, computers, audio and video production, model building, etc. My workplace is about 2/3 female. Unfortunately, this places me rather squarely in the middle between the genders and I find that I do not fully relate to any of the people around me much of the time. But most would, I think, peg my personality as more female than male.

On the sex/relationship side, I am 100% interested in women, but for obvious reasons, don't have too many dating opportunities. I need to find a social circle that includes more single women ...

- Diane

[DebbieL]

I'm always amused when some guy says "It takes balls to wear a dress like that". I point out that it does take COURAGE, just like it takes courage for a woman to dress like that.

Ironically, many traits normally attributed to men, like honor, integrity, courage, commitment, honesty, strength, order, impeccability, and power, came as a result of going public as Debbie, not as Rex.

To hide Debbie, Rex had to lie, cheat, steal, sneak, and hide. Fear crippled me, kept me from sharing my true feelings, wants and needs. To keep people from finding my hidden treasures, I kept everything messy. I had to "act" like a man, and often overdid it. and I was often selfish. Rex was antisocial, intellectual, a "know it all" in the most irritating way. Rex was socially retarded and often said things that were inappropriate. Rex had a talent for being able to see the worst possible scenario.

Debbie on the other hand, required honesty, courage, authenticity, and compassion for the fears and concerns of others. Debbie liked people, especially women, as friends. Debbie is a good listener, and really enjoys being with people. Debbie looks for the win-win solutions, and likes to promoe cooperation among the teams, often leading but also empowering others to lead.

Rex had little interest in sports, health, or exercise, and spent many years in hospital beds. Debbie loved to live, sing, dance, walk, ride bicycles, and sail. Debbie liked to party, but seemed to keep a clear head. Often, Rex would go to a party and drink/drug himself into oblivion, a black-out - where Debbie took over and often stopped drugging.

Rex is nerdy, a jerk, selfish, and self-centered. Debbie is friendly, kind, gentle, and looking out for others.

Rex could go a week without taking a shower or brushing his teeth. Debbie is very clean and sometimes even a bit vain.

I often try to find ways to bring Debbie out even when I'm in the "suit". Rex is a problem solving machine, but Debbie can sell the solution.

Calling a particular personality trait masculine or feminine is a bit insulting. Something like "Man Good" and "Girl Bad". But that's what we grew up with as boys. I never understood why the other boys didn't like girls. Personally, I wasn't all that fond of boys.

[Prettyinscarlet]

[QUOTE=Bulma;2602261]
To be honest, for me, it's kind of a mixed bag. As a male, I'm extremely masculine; sometimes I can even be called a douchebag (I believe it's due to my blunt honesty...I never look to offend, I just don't like to lie just to save someone's feelings.) I'm pretty much always in boy mode--all I own is one pair of heels--and when out and about, or spending time with friends, I don't even think of my feminine side. I'm heavily into sports, and have season tickets to the Mariners and Seahawks, in fact. Haha.[QUOTE]

My SO is a CD and to be honest I would never ever have guessed it if he hadnt told me. I would say there is a lot of him that presents itself as masculine, He is messy, he good at DIY, Strong, good with cars, computers/ video games etc, has a few male friends that he likes to hang out with occasionally for a drink etc.

However know that I know about his 'femme' side its really obvious to me the qualities that he also presents ALL the time that are very typically feminine, he is Emotional, Sensitive, Empathic, he also hates anything to do with 'BLOKEY ATTITUDE' anything in a film or tv that belittles women in anyway he gets very irate... he also loves Chocolate :P

yes his manerisms and body language do change when he is en femme, but he is still very much the same wonderful person all the time. :)

whilst I do enjoy some of his 'Bob mode' traits, If I were to think about them seperately its all the Femme ones that I have fallen in love with ...

Guess I'm just a lucky GG


Scarlet x

[Kate Simmons]

Not much difference. What you see and hear from me is pretty much what you get in both modes, especially since I amalgamated my male and female feelings in my overall self some time ago.:)

[Leslie Iz]

I am physically a male with all the hormones and such but for whatever reason since puberty I have felt like a female. I enjoy guy things like sports but also girl things like shopping and fashion. I play the part of being strong and manly but my true feelings have always been more passive than aggressive. This is true in dealing with others or in sexual situations. My feminine side shows through though most would not notice, I do.

[Sophie_C]

Well, personally I don't exactly distinguish the two. I think all people have a masculine/feminine balance, leaning one way or another, and I just lean, rather severely towards the feminine side, unfortunately, having a male body and all.

And, while I do mask it and pretend otherwise in my day-to-day living, it's hard work and I slip up all the time. More and more I seem to not really be caring that it happens.

Now, for what makes masculine and what makes feminine - feminist doctrine always rears it's ugly head and says a woman is whatever she cares to be, essentially denouncing gender roles. But, I think that's highly ignorant. There are roles and tendencies that are pretty obvious, and if a woman cares to go against that, she's obviously still a woman, and that's great. But, feminine is feminine and masculine is masculine, and there's this sort of energy to both of them that is entirely different, where she may be giving off a different balance of it than I am.

That's how I see and feel it, anyway...

[Kittyagain]

I think of it like the balance control on an audio system. Over the years the balance has slide back and forth being more left than right sometimes and others more right than left. As I get older, it is staying on the right side, the feminine side, most of the time but I can still make it slide hard left if I have too.

Kitty

[LeaP]

Not extreme at all. I feel pretty much the same either way. I do really dislike both male and female extremes, as I feel there is a falseness in them. I strongly dislike aspects of my maleness, including temper and occasional aggressive tendencies - all testosterone driven, I believe. I also dislike the hallmarks of male dress, such as suits, dress shirts, ties, etc. Still, none of this feels extreme to me. It's more a matter of wanting a middle way between genders.

Lea

[kimdl93]

I probably appear fairly masculine to most people when I'm not dressed, given my stature. But for all my life, back as far as I can remember, I've had some at times embarrassingly feminine traits and interests. I didn't really separate the two - it was more like suppressing the feminine side and amplifying the male. And as a younger adult, I was far more "macho" in behavior -outlwardly at least. It was as if I was over compensating for my feminine side.

Frankly, I'm a nicer and more effective human being now that I allow my true nature to express itself.

[ashleymasters]

I am pretty masculine most of the time. I like to camp, work with my hands, play sports and I love cars. When I'm en femme I am very girly. I think it's a balance for myself. Even a little restful really.

[Carol A]

Gee I really don't know as I have been dressing so long I am comfortable in both modes. Now will admit
I prefer dressing and being Carol Ann

[Inna]

Not As Easy As It Looks

Lot can be hidden behind the facade of pretense. I for one was living a ultra masculine life however almost daily had to resolve to letting the girl within escape if only for a while. I was so sure that this girl is only a small part of my psyche and because my obvious physique and peer pressure I went to the extremes to camouflage my soft side.
I was totally unaware of manipulating my self into being this butch, super manly man human, 220 lbs of pure muscle-body builder, outwardly homophobic, sissyfobic, and all that would imply any trace of femininity. As a young boy I was part of real Punk movement, being what punks do, very bad (girl) boy, Grrrrrrrrrr.

But all that was a charade, a camo, so that no one could learn about this Soft, sensual, shy little girl who possessed my soul and yet was sentenced to imprisonment within my conscious world.

Now after life long denial, I have finally come to understanding that I never, NEVER was manly nor even slightly masculine, but broken, sobbing, and regretful facade of pretend.
I am sure this does not necessarily have to apply to transgender only, I am sure lots of wars had been started by those who fear, carry guilt and pain of pretending to be someone whom they are not!!!!!!!!!

[BlondeFarrah]

I am pretty masculine most of the time. I like to camp, work with my hands, play sports and I love cars. When I'm en femme I am very girly. I think it's a balance for myself. Even a little restful really.

It works for me. it's very exciting a big gap between two personalities. Its funny and enjoyable..

[NicoleScott]

..........and have season tickets to the Mariners and Seahawks, in fact. Haha.

Well, that just proves how feminine you are. Haha.

Just kidding. My favorite sports team has gone through l o n g periods of being crappy. But the Saints finally won it all. I was beginning to wonder if it would ever happen.

To address the issue you raised: many of us do not have a feminine identity that is at odds with a masculine identity. We are men, like it that way, but just like to occasionally dress up to some extent, even keeping it a very private, personal thing. As a pre-teen, I enjoyed (in private) wearing high heels and putting on lipstick. It expanded throughout my teen years, and when I was in my twenties I was dressing and making up completely. I have been out in pubic, but I'm pretty happy indulging my part-time femme fantasy home alone, or in hotel rooms when I can.
I am never hyper-macho, the real me or some act of compensation or diversion. I'm just a regular guy, married with a child, and I have a normal male life which includes traditional male activities, both work, leisure, and family role. I don't think my crossdressing requires giving up any male attributes - it's just extra.
In femme mode, I try to walk and talk in a feminine way, but it's pretty superficial and not because of any feminine identity. I do try to look extremely feminine, by my definition, by going over-the-top in makeup and dressing style. But hey, there are no rules when dressing in private.
Yes, get a femme name, and use it here before you go out in public.

[Gillian Gigs]

I have lived life with a blend of the two sides of me to the point of not really knowing where one ends and the other starts. What I do know is this, I can be the chameleon that changes to suit the environment that I am in. I can be comfortable in a room full of guys watching a football game, or in a room full of women talking about their children. It sometimes amazes my wife how I can be so comfortable in a room full of women. I just do a slight mind shift, and I get comfortable in the environment in which I am in. Masculinity, or femininity has more to do with what is going on inside my mind, than anything else. If I see an up side to all of this, it is the ability to relate with either sex where they are at.

[LeaP]

I can be comfortable in a room full of guys watching a football game ... Masculinity, or femininity has more to do with what is going on inside my mind, than anything else. it is

I'm not sure about "mind" per se, but it is internal. I'm rarely really comfortable in all male settings - it always feels like I'm acting. I'm pretty introverted, so there's always a bit of a front in any group, but I'm acutely conscious of playing the guy thing.

Lea

[Kittyagain]

I I can be comfortable in a room full of guys watching a football game, or in a room full of women talking about their children. It sometimes amazes my wife how I can be so comfortable in a room full of women. I just do a slight mind shift, and I get comfortable in the environment in which I am in.

Well written.

I find that I am more comfortable with a group of woman when I am in the male mode. Even in a crowded party atmosphere, I find myself with the women because I just like them better.

Kitty

[Gillian Gigs]

I do have to work at the comfort thing in some settings. It goes this way, " even a fool is thought to be wise if they keep their mouth closed". I know enough about football to be a part of what is going on. I have children, so I can talk about this subject. I don't give myself away unnecessarily talking about fashion. I steer away from most of the macho stuff that I find that just turns me off. Or, just say nothing and more on to a conversation that is more of interest to me. I do feel more comfortable in the company of women, there is a difference between the two sexes.

[carhill2mn]

I am not an extreme "macho" male. I do try to look like a woman and act like a lady when presenting as a woman.

[AnitaH]

Like several others here I am not an extremly masculine male. Even my wife says she knew that before we married. At times my feminine side is stronger that hers even in male mode. I am pretty much the same person I walk every day with one foot in both worlds. I will say I often feel more comfortable in female mode. I try to perfect feminine character when in that mode.

AnitaH

[Speck]

Well, personally I don't exactly distinguish the two. I think all people have a masculine/feminine balance, leaning one way or another, and I just lean, rather severely towards the feminine side, unfortunately, having a male body and all.

And, while I do mask it and pretend otherwise in my day-to-day living, it's hard work and I slip up all the time. More and more I seem to not really be caring that it happens.

Now, for what makes masculine and what makes feminine - feminist doctrine always rears it's ugly head and says a woman is whatever she cares to be, essentially denouncing gender roles. But, I think that's highly ignorant. There are roles and tendencies that are pretty obvious, and if a woman cares to go against that, she's obviously still a woman, and that's great. But, feminine is feminine and masculine is masculine, and there's this sort of energy to both of them that is entirely different, where she may be giving off a different balance of it than I am.

That's how I see and feel it, anyway...

Sophie, I absolutely agree that by and large, there's a difference between feminine and masculine and I like the way you say there's some sort of energy to both. The trouble with listing characteristics normally ascribed to one or the other is that it always seems to fly in the face of everything I've ever experienced. I'm a GG. Some folks here have talked about men having a temper, or being aggressive. Well, I can tell you that I have a terrible temper...worse than many men I know. On any given day you could call me pushy, determined, tenacious, and yes, aggressive. You could also call me competitive, outspoken and all kinds of other words that would normally be ascribed to men. I assure you, I'm not transgendered as I neither experience any gender dysphoria, nor do I try to look like a man.

On the other hand, I've been in relationships with non CDing men and I think it's a pretty good assumption that they were cisgendered. Many of them weren't into sports. Some couldn't use a power tool if their life depended on it. And one in particular - my ex husband, was so emotional he made decisions that had no logic whatsoever to them. So, every time I see a list of adjectives or generalizations that attempt to differentiate men from women, it just doesn't compute with me.

I do believe that the very same personality trait can be expressed in either a more feminine way or a more masculine way but it's the expression that differs not the core trait. In fact, lots of gay men express feminity in a way that heterosexual men don't but their gender identity which has nothing to do with sexual orientation is fully male.

I was involved in conducting a study once of how bosses write performance appraisals and time and again we found that male bosses described positive traits of their male subordinates differently than their female subordinates. So one has to wonder, how it is that both the men and women were successful when the job requirements are identical. Did they really have different personality traits or are they just expressed differently? Or is it a matter of where emphasis is placed, kind of like you can say the same sentence but by placing the emphasis on a different word, the meaning changes?

People like Deborah Tannen have made a living outlining the differences between male and female personality, thinking patterns and behaviour. For everyone one like her there are dozens of others who have debunked all of that "research". It's hard to know what to believe but at the moment, I'm leaning toward the conclusion that gender identity is not about male or female personality traits but rather male or female expression of those traits. And for the 6 million dollar question...how much is nature and how much is nurture??

Speck

[ReineD]

I agree with Speck. Gender identity is not about character or personality traits, the type of jobs we do, personal interests, etc. Both genders span a wide range of behaviors, interests, and emotions, even more so now that women have caught up to men in terms of professions and education, there are large numbers of single moms and dads, and household tasks have become secondary chores for everyone. Granted, boys are socialized to not cry, but they can if they want to. Girls are socialized to be nurturing, but they can be tough as nails in the work force or on the playing field if they have to. Both can be brutally honest, or passively dishonest if they want to.

I'm a GG and I have what is considered the stereotypical male thinking patterns. And you should see how messy my bedroom floor is when I know no one will be coming around. And I'm extremely competitive when it comes to something I care about or feel is a part of my core identity. But, I also have very well developed stereotypical feminine traits.

The trouble with assigning gender characteristics is that people tend to think of the extremes, almost the caricatures, when they do this: they consider the stereotypes, especially in TG forums such as this one. In reality, there are a great deal many people who fall in the middle. Here's a small, graphic example to illustrate my point. Go to any mall, and observe people walking. In your mind's eye, you might imagine that women will walk with a graceful sway and men will walk in a comparatively apish manner. But if you observe people, you'll see there are some who do fit either of these extremes, but many will also fall in the middle.

Follow this link to gendered walking patterns. Be sure to toggle the "lines" button at the bottom to see the figure more clearly. Then move the first slider back and forth between male and female. At either end you'll see the stereotypical male and female walks, that would actually look cartoonish should you see real people walking like this. Keep the button in the middle and there you'll see how many men and woman walk:

http://www.biomotionlab.ca/Demos/BMLwalker.html

So, gender is deeper than the things I mentioned in my first paragraph. For me, it is a state of being, of profound identity, that is inexorably tied to my female sex characteristics and basic bodily functions: the ability to give birth and lactate. The way my body is made to have sex. I feel and I know that I am a woman, no matter what I do, how I behave, what I wear, or how I look, in the same way a TS feels she is a woman despite the body assigned to her at birth.

Granted, men in our society don't have the same freedom of expression as women have. Men also sexualize women more than the reverse. So, it makes sense that the typical CD, who in order to mask his softer feelings has not allowed himself to express his softer side or has only allowed a sexual expression, would feel as if there is a vast difference between the expression of both genders. And for this person, internally there is. But in reality? Not much, when it comes to emotions, interests, or personality traits. Not when you look past the social conditioning.

[Victoria P]

My current girlfriend had said she noticed some things about me when we first met. She said I talk with my hands a lot and do the 'limp wrist' action without me even realizing it. I have been told when I sit on a couch I tuck one leg under the other as women often do.I was told years back when I had hair that I often played with it in a twirling motion. Also apparently I say 'oh my God ' far too much and lastly my eyes give me away when I see lovely dresses,shoes or lingerie. There is probably a bit more I cannot remember,lol.

Now I know why when I was younger working in warehouses that so many burly truck drivers acted all intimidating towards me ,even though I was polite. :)

[CatAttack]

Wow Reine really hit the nail on the head with that post.

On a side note:

http://www.biomotionlab.ca/Demos/BMLwalker.html
Click line, then set the bars all the way female, light, nervous, and happy for great results. Science!

[Frédérique]

I guess my main point here, is how extreme are your male and female selves? Is anyone else very macho when a male, but very femme when dressed? Kinda trying to get an idea on the balance you all have in your lives, and how you separate one from the other--if you do at all.

They are not extreme at all, in fact I am the same person, dressed or not. Think of an incorporated self, and not TWO selves, and you may begin to solve this mystery. Balance is easy when you’re in the middle, and I can safely say that I “act” the same way in drab – I do not slip into an overtly male “presentation” to make everyone feel at ease, in fact I openly display my natural effeminacy, enjoying the consequences as THEY begin to feel uncomfortable. I’m not extremely femme when I’m dressed, but maybe a little more “within” myself, since I’m clothed in the clothes I prefer to wear. A "macho" male is not in the offing for me, in fact the very idea disgusts me…
:sad:

[BLUE ORCHID]

I'm pretty much the same person in either mode the only thing that I notice is the way I walk when dressed.

Orchid