Question of Direction

[AKAMichelle]

I know everyone has a different perspective on this question. So I am put a particular point in your transition as part of the question.

Assume that you are weeks away from your SRS surgery. At this point in your life you have lived many months if not years as a woman. At this point in your life where would you be most likely to eat dinner?

Mainstream restaurant
TG frienly restaurant
And why behind it.

[thechic]

Mainstream restaurant ,as I have nothing to hide, go where i like,dont want to be ristricted on where i go,and am out there anyway.

[Dawn cd]

Eat wherever the food is best.

[AllieSF]

The T friendly aspect shouldn't even come into consideration if one has done the RLE for a year. Hell, I am a CD and go wherever I want! Going to a T friendly place should only be considered if it is a favorite place to go, not because of the "friendly" part. That is my opinion. Now some TS's may have confidence issues and they need to move at their own speed.

[Stephenie S]

All restaurants are TG friendly. All businesses are TG friendly.

If you have money to spend, business people have NO problem taking your money. Relax. Eat where you want. How are you ever gonna FIND a TG restaurant, anyway?

Oh, that's right, I forgot. You look for the special sign on the door. The one that says, "Visa & Mastercard welcome".

[Rianna Humble]

There's another sign that works for me in some restaurants: 50% off

Other than that, I have never enquired into the TG friendliness of a restaurant, so I would not know whether the restaurant I chose was mainstream or "TG friendly"

[Jorja]

Restaurants and other businesses don't care if you are green and come from Mars. If you got the money honey, they have product to sell. I have been around the world more than once and have yet to be asked if I am tg/ts or cisgendered before entering a restaurant or other type of business. I do love the "Visa & Mastercard welcome" signs, a little too much sometimes.

[Frances]

If you are weeks away from surgery, I would hope that you have integrated into society as a whole and feel comfortable everywhere. Otherwise, there will be heartache ahead. I am not talking about passing 100%, but feeling comfortable in any restaurant or store, or whatever, regardless if you pass or not. I cannot imagine someone getting to SRS and staying cloistered in their city's gay village. If that is the case, then something failed in the RLE and therapeutic process.

There comes a time to get out of the ghetto. Usually, it's the ghetto that tells you it's time, like when TG friendly places ask you to pay the cover charge at the door when they have a policy of free entry for TG folks.

[kellycan27]

If you are weeks away from surgery, I would hope that you have integrated into society as a whole and feel comfortable everywhere. Otherwise, there will be heartache ahead. I am not talking about passing 100%, but feeling comfortable in any restaurant or store, or whatever, regardless if you pass or not. I cannot imagine someone getting to SRS and staying cloistered in their city's gay village. If that is the case, then something failed in the RLE and therapeutic process.

There comes a time to get out of the ghetto. Usually, it's the ghetto that tells you it's time, like when TG friendly places ask you to pay the cover charge at the door when they have a policy of free entry for TG folks.


Well said. Can't think of anything more to add

[Persephone]

Michelle,

My response would be like all the others, food and ambiance first.

But maybe we're all missing the purpose of your question? Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain what you were actually trying to determine?

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Inna]

I suppose this question goes way deeper then just being out and about. It is the acceptance of your self within the reality of life. Being looked upon and judged brings out set of responses which depend on your own state of well being. If one is hesitant of their place in the society, they will seek out only places where tolerance is a paramount, on the other hand if that someone is well into self acceptance and feels comfort in manouvering about in life they will care less where they eat or where they are at the moment besides the obvious girly safety stuff.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

good food.. if they have guinness stout, i'm there

i dont understand the question.. can i suggest you may be overthinking things a bit?..

[Kathryn Martin]

Any restaurant that would strike my fancy. Some of those are also specifically TS friendly but then again I live in Canada which tends to be more accepting on a societal level. I am an attractive, middle aged woman and I can go anywhere I please. I am a little with Kaitlyn and others here. Safety comes from confidence not from TS/TG friendliness.

[Melody Moore]

All restaurants are TG friendly. All businesses are TG friendly.

If you have money to spend, business people have NO problem taking your money. Relax. Eat where you want. How are you ever gonna FIND a TG restaurant, anyway?

Oh, that's right, I forgot. You look for the special sign on the door. The one that says, "Visa & Mastercard welcome".

What Stephanie said... So what is the problem, is your money no good or something?

If someone refused to serve me on the basis I am a trans woman, then they would face litigation for sure ;)

[Traci Elizabeth]

I myself left the TS label behind two years ago. The only thing I am is a woman and as such go where ever I please.

[gretchen2]

rfsggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg

[AKAMichelle]

I myself left the TS label behind two years ago. The only thing I am is a woman and as such go where ever I please.

I think this is the perfect answer to the question. I was curious about why people leave the community as they transition. They generally become invisible to the community if they can pass in the world. Those that don't usually stay in the community as activist. KatesBeck stated this awhile back and I wanted to see if those statements were factual as they have appeared in this post.

[sandra-leigh]

All restaurants are TG friendly. All businesses are TG friendly.

My experience differs. There is a used clothing store whose owner specifically told one of the ranking members of our club that we were not welcome in her store (not even after hours, with an appointment.) I didn't know that and went in, and I was treated poorly there by the owner.

I have been told of a corner store and a coffee shop here that treat TG/TS poorly -- told by people it had happened to.

Here in Canada, there is no human rights protection for gender identity. Legislation was introduced by the opposition and passed in the last parliamentary session, but before it could be dealt with by the upper house, an election was called, which throws away the effect of the bill having passed unless all the parties in the new parliament agree to "continue" it. The new parliament is, however, a majority parliament of the one party that had opposed the legislation, and whose leader had personally previously vowed to try to kill the legislation in the upper house (where the same party also has a majority). There is, in other words, no hope that similar legislation will be introduced in this session; probably the best hope for it to be introduced would be for a series of high court rulings in the provinces saying that gender protection was required.

====

How am I going to find a TG friendly restaurant? One of the clues I look for is, when I am clearly presenting as female, which pronoun the staff use. Another clue I look for is, when I am clearly presenting as female and ask for the key to the washroom, which key I am given.

If one of the staff says, "I like your nails", or asks where I got my purse, then they are being respectful and friendly about my gender presentation.

Sears -- their bra staff usually can't find what I'm looking for, but they do sort of look around; when I ask to try on a bra, they tell me to go right ahead in (no matter how I am presenting). The Bay -- their bra staff knows their stock much better and is more helpful at suggesting alternatives, but when I ask to try something on, they look around to see if anyone is looking before letting me in. One of the Bay sales associates explained one time: the policy is that only women can use the bra try-on area; she doesn't approve of the policy and would let me in without hesitation, but she looks around in case a manager is watching. This leads to an interesting contrast: in the one place (Sears) the official policy is TG/TS friendly but the staff doesn't bother "selling" the product (but will take your money if you locate something you want); in the other place (The Bay), the official policy is not TG/TS friendly but the staff is. (In The Bay, I've had more than one staff member prefer to deal with me.)

[Melody Moore]

Those that don't usually stay in the community as activist.
I beg to differ, myself and a number of trans women who are activist & pass really well and have no
issues in public and are always seen no differently to other natal female. In fact most people I have
told are surprised to find out that I once lived my life as a male. Apart from my local LGBT community
to the public I am stealth. So I don't believe that you can ever generalise with such a broad statement.

Personally I have taken on the role as an activist because there is not enough information in the community
& because there is a need for someone to represent our local community. I have just come out of a meeting
with director of our local sexual health service because I am in the process of setting up an association to
represent my region in the state of Queensland - more specifically to support Far North Queensland because
we get forgotten about, ignored or neglected when it comes to health care by our state & federal government,
especially transgender health care. So my role as an trans-awareness/rights activist has nothing to do with my
ability to 'pass' in public, as opposed to improving services & bringing more trans-awareness to the community
in my region. And I can do that without having to be really publicly visible as well which is something many trans
folk often overlook. Members of my support group can also do the same and still maintain public anonymity.

So I don't agree with Katesback one bit about her comments on this issue.

[Rianna Humble]

I was curious about why people leave the community as they transition. They generally become invisible to the community if they can pass in the world. Those that don't usually stay in the community as activist. KatesBeck stated this awhile back and I wanted to see if those statements were factual as they have appeared in this post.

I don't understand this reply. You ask about choices we would make for eating before transition in order to find out whether we would act as advocates after transition? Perhaps I'm being particularly obtuse, but I see absolutely no link there whatsoever.

Katesbeck is perfectly entitled to her jaundiced view of life, but she is amongst those who make the mistake of thinking that advocacy of a cause means that you are a member of that section of society for whom you act as an advocate. By that logic, I am a third-world cocoa farmer, a Columbian trades-unionist and someone facing the death penalty in several countries all at once.

[CharleneT]

Frances put it perfectly ;)

As for myself, right now the restaurant I choose is a street food cart in the alley next to my hotel (Baan Siri, Bangkok). Absolutely incredible smoked fish :D 35 baht for one fish ( about $1.20 ).

Michelle, I think the reason many folks disappear soon after SRS is simply that all of what CD is, becomes pretty boring or not useful to their lives. I also agree with Katesback's contention that transition is not done just because you have surgeries. But the act of just living as a woman doesn't really require this sort of support group anymore. I think Yoda put it nicely: "there is no try, just do or do not do".

[Aprilrain]

If you are weeks away from surgery, I would hope that you have integrated into society as a whole and feel comfortable everywhere. Otherwise, there will be heartache ahead. I am not talking about passing 100%, but feeling comfortable in any restaurant or store, or whatever, regardless if you pass or not. I cannot imagine someone getting to SRS and staying cloistered in their city's gay village. If that is the case, then something failed in the RLE and therapeutic process.

There comes a time to get out of the ghetto. Usually, it's the ghetto that tells you it's time, like when TG friendly places ask you to pay the cover charge at the door when they have a policy of free entry for TG folks.

At first I thought maybe the question was a joke. Maybe it is I'm still not sure but definitely what Frances said.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

If you have a question ask it!!! LOL

[StaceyJane]

Since there are no TG businesses in Central Texas I eat where I want en femme.
I once bought a sandwich in Cowboy's Stadium while en femme which would seem to be the least TG friendly place around but really I had no problem.

[Badtranny]

I wouldn't do anything different a few weeks from SRS than I do now.

I'm O.U.T. baby and it's a wonderful life.

[Nicki S]

I agree with Melissa. Being out is wonderful, so why not face the real world.

[Frances]

I agree with Melissa. Being out is wonderful, so why not face the real world.

Is this what this thread is about?

[Melody Moore]

Just to get this thread back on topic... do these types of 'TG Friendly Places' exist?




Mainstream restaurant
TG frienly restaurant



Of course they do - every regular restaurant I have been in is "TG Friendly" well they've been friendly to
me but they never asked me if I was TG... but I haven't had any issues. But they don't exactly hang a sign
on the door advertising the fact, in fact the more I think about this then the less likelihood of me going
there. In fact I very rarely even socialise with other trans-women now unless it is at an organised event
or in some activity that is to do with my support group. I live in a house that is a share house, and when
I found this place it was not advertised as being TG friendly but that is not to say that is wasn't. Most of
my friends I hang around with are ordinary people, most of my friends are other natal females. I went out
last week with a trans-girlfriend for the first time in ages for dinner and we just went to any place we wanted
to go - neither of us even gave this a thought - so I wonder why it is such an issue for some other people.

[Katesback]

I get the biggest laught when girls with penises like Riana and others take stabs at me because they dont agree with me. As if thier limited experience trumps that of someone that has actually lived through the process. They sound a lot like a teenager thinking they know it all. Perhaps that is a big reason so many girls that have made it through the process vanish.

[DebbieL]

I know everyone has a different perspective on this question. So I am put a particular point in your transition as part of the question.

Assume that you are weeks away from your SRS surgery. At this point in your life you have lived many months if not years as a woman. At this point in your life where would you be most likely to eat dinner?

Mainstream restaurant
TG frienly restaurant
And why behind it.

If you are about to do SRS, then you had better be completely comfortable in any mainstream restaurant. In fact, you might even avoid restaurants where there are other TGs because your are more likely to be read and assumed to be pre-op.

The whole point of the Benjamin process, living for a year or more full-time as a woman, is to make sure that you are completely comfortable in ANY situation as your new presentation.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

the OP question is misguided based on the follow up to the OP...sorry Michelle..i still love ya!

tg friendly doesn't mean anything to a transsexual person.. the idea that there is a restaurant that caters specifically to crossdressers is real..but that's a scenario, a play date..its got nothing at all to do with transsexual and transition..

the idea that many ts people leave the community makes the assumption that ts and cd people share a community... this is a controversial topic...

all i can say is that i have never met a transitioned transsexual that wishes she outed herself to MORE people..

[Frances]

The idea that many ts people leave the community makes the assumption that ts and cd people share a community... this is a controversial topic...

all i can say is that i have never met a transitioned transsexual that wishes she outed herself to MORE people..

I agree and want to add that transsexual women or people by themselves do not really share a community either. I sometimes go to a support group, but my community is my collegues at work, neighbours in my building, etc. No one is transsexual as far as I know, but then again, some may have transitioned long ago and I don't know, should not know and don't want to know if they are trans. Our shared experience is not based on that.

[Stephenie S]

A transgendered friendly restaurant? Huh? I still wonder if such places really exist. How could you tell? Because they compliment your nails? Please. I have joked that the way you tell a business is TG friendly is by the MasterCard and Visa logo on the door. I feel there is more than a little truth to this.

I would not seek out such a place anyway. I want a restaurant that specializes in good food, reasonably priced, and politely served, thank you very much. Leave my nails alone.

S

[Melody Moore]

tg friendly doesn't mean anything to a transsexual person.. the idea that there is a restaurant that caters specifically to crossdressers is real..but that's a scenario, a play date..its got nothing at all to do with transsexual and transition..

the idea that many ts people leave the community makes the assumption that ts and cd people share a community... this is a controversial topic...

all i can say is that i have never met a transitioned transsexual that wishes she outed herself to MORE people..
Here we go, Kaitlyn has to be right since we both agree on about this. ;)


I have joked that the way you tell a business is TG friendly is by the MasterCard and Visa logo on the door. I feel there is more than a little truth to this.
I think so as well, just a few days ago someone mentioned to me they seen a whole football team recently
coming out of a restaurant dressed in drag who were out celebrating the end of the season. And I am sure
the management took real offence to serving them, Not! that place would have made a packet out of those guys :heehee:

On Wednesday evening I went to a meeting with a councillor from our local city council and this was a forum about
establishing a same sex relationship registry here. And the reason why our council wants it is because they know it
will be good for tourism bringing more 'same sex couples' to the region to have their civil union ceremonies in paradise.

So when it comes to big business, the mighty pink dollar is never one to be sneezed at. ;)

[Katesback]

I get a kick out of the tg friendly question.



what it really means is a place that will tolerate someone that clearly looks and acts out of place in normal society.

Now if you act normal then you can go anywhere and you would feel comfortable. If you are normal in your head then this question has no place in this forum.

[Melody Moore]

Oh Kate, cut the OP some slack here will you?

There are those in transition that are still appearing very androgynous, so I can see how such issues
can be a concern some transsexuals. When you pass well it is easy for us to forget why others are
so worried about issues such as discrimination. I am finding myself that I am doing this sometimes when
others are talking about their struggles, because when I go anywhere I don't worry about anything so
I have no real issues to weigh myself down like they do. You also had FFS didn't you? Well maybe these
TS girls are not that far along in their journeys, but still they have made their start and they no less
transsexual or a female than you are. So please Kate, just never forget where you also came from. ;)

[Frances]

If you are normal in your head then this question has no place in this forum.

I think it has a place on this forum, but it meaningless to a transsxeual person about to undergo SRS. Anyone getting to the end of the process would understand this. I often find people on this forum can only envision where there are at and the past, and make decisions based on that.



There are those in transition that are still appearing very androgynous, so I can see how such issues
can be a concern some transsexuals. When you pass well it is easy for us to forget why others are
so worried about issues such as discrimination. I am finding myself that I am doing this sometimes when
others are talking about their struggles, because when I go anywhere I don't worry about anything so
I have no real issues to weigh myself down like they do. You also had FFS didn't you? Well maybe these
TS girls are not that far along in their journeys, but still they have made their start and they no less
transsexual or a female than you are. So please Kate, just never forget where you also came from.

Kate has her style, which does not appeal to everyone, but she is most often on the money. The friendly answer the OP is don't worry about it. When the time comes for SRS, you will not be wondering about which restaurants will be more welcoming anymore.

[Melody Moore]

When the time comes for SRS, you will not be wondering about which restaurants will be more welcoming anymore.
Was I ever worried about these things Frances? I think not. :heehee:

I am not disagreeing totally with the point Kate was making, I am just saying that I see
no problem with these types of questions being asked here. I just don't like seeing
comments that leave the OP feeling that they were stupid to ask such a question.

[Frances]

Was I ever worried about these things Frances? I think not. :heehee:

I too was once worried about these things at one time. Even when everyone told me I passed really well, I was still worried. But it is a process of transition, of becoming something else. And when that is achieved, there is no looking back, unless one wants to become a professional T-person. There is a need for them too. Otherwise, I would not have bought all those biographies and gained insight from them. But you know what, I don't even want the books anymore. I just want to be a regular woman, and the vast majority of trans women get to that point near SRS.

[Melody Moore]

I hear ya Frances... but also the generalised comment that only trans-women who don't
pass are the only ones who are activist statement. I only stepped up to the plate because
someone had to do it - noone else was. I know I still got a little way to go in my own journey
but for me all the hardest work is over from the way I see it. From where I currently stand I
can see where this person is coming from and that person is come from and it has served me
well obviously to get voted in as the chairperson for my support group. Quite a few of the others
have told me that I am the best role model for the group because of my positive attitude and
because I have become so well settled in my life. As I said earlier I hardly socialise with the
others anymore if I do it is because it at an organised event I am involved with. But I do see
myself eventually stepping right back away from all of that later on, but for now, I feel it is my
turn to do a watch and do my bit to help those who are following behind me. But I must say that
some of my most recent successes with the trans community in my region are really starting to
make me smile. It looks like we might be going to host the Annual National Transgender Conference
up here in August 2012 which is just before I am planning on going to Thailand, So I get to play
hostess to the whole event - sounds like this is going to be lots of fun so I will enjoy it while I can ;)

[kellycan27]

I think this is the perfect answer to the question. I was curious about why people leave the community as they transition. They generally become invisible to the community if they can pass in the world. Those that don't usually stay in the community as activist. KatesBeck stated this awhile back and I wanted to see if those statements were factual as they have appeared in this post.

This is kind of a no brainer, at least for me. Aside form being an activist why in the world would anyone who could get away from this not want to? If you were a slave and someone gave you the choice to live as a slave or have your freedom.. would you choose to remain a slave? If as stated in the OP, if you are living as a woman and are passing.. everywhere would pretty much be "tg friendly" (whether they know it or not):heehee:
Transitioning is like going to college. You study whats' this thing all about? You learn Why am I like this and how do I deal with it? You take the tests coming out to friends,family,co-workers. A lot of us intern RLE.
Eventually we graduate and get our degree, and say goodbye to school and our classmates. Some wish to remain and teach, others use what they have learned and venture forth to live their lives. We may keep in contact with some we have met along the way, and we may return to school every now and then... kinda sounds like pretty normal life doesn't it?

[Rianna Humble]

If you were a slave and someone gave you the choice to live as a slave or have your freedom.. would you choose to remain a slave?

Fortunately, some of the enfranchised slaves stuck around to work to get better conditions for those in slavery - this is what the person who can't spell my name is unable to understand. She will when she grows up.

[kellycan27]

Fortunately, some of the enfranchised slaves stuck around to work to get better conditions for those in slavery - this is what the person who can't spell my name is unable to understand. She will when she grows up.

That's all fine and good, and more power to them. As i said earlier, some would rather stay and teach, and that is admirable. Although i have not seen it mentioned in this thread there are some people who feel that we should be obligated to stay and "give back" to the community. My question is.. What the hell is the TG community, and where the heck is it? I have been full time for going on 9 years now and I have yet to run into another TS in my trappings. I have seen a couple, but have not had the occasion to interact with them.

[Katesback]

Perhaps another question one might ask is how many of the activists out there are post-op? I would suggest that for the most part the majority are pre-op. As I have said before there is a difference between the two wether ya like it or not. The fact is that after SRS (and FFS for many) the fun any games are over and a very real sense of normalicy falls into place. Something you cannot experience when your a girl with a penis. Just the facts of life.









That's all fine and good, and more power to them. As i said earlier, some would rather stay and teach, and that is admirable. Although i have not seen it mentioned in this thread there are some people who feel that we should be obligated to stay and "give back" to the community. My question is.. What the hell is the TG community, and where the heck is it? I have been full time for going on 9 years now and I have yet to run into another TS in my trappings. I have seen a couple, but have not had the occasion to interact with them.

[kellycan27]

Perhaps another question one might ask is how many of the activists out there are post-op? I would suggest that for the most part the majority are pre-op. As I have said before there is a difference between the two wether ya like it or not. The fact is that after SRS (and FFS for many) the fun any games are over and a very real sense of normalicy falls into place. Something you cannot experience when your a girl with a penis. Just the facts of life.

Good question... in deed

[Stephenie S]

As usual, experience nails it.

Stephie

[Melody Moore]

Perhaps another question one might ask is how many of the activists out there are post-op? I would suggest that for the most part the majority are pre-op.
I might just decide to hang around for awhile even after I am post-op Kate just to prove you wrong.
In fact I think it is vital that the more experienced people hang around longer to help those following
in our footsteps ;)

[DebbieL]

tg friendly doesn't mean anything to a transsexual person.. the idea that there is a restaurant that caters specifically to crossdressers is real..but that's a scenario, a play date..its got nothing at all to do with transsexual and transition..


The key difference between a transsexual and a cross-dresser is that a transsexual, given time and money, would want to become the move on the outside that they are on the inside. A transsexual is a woman trapped in a man's body pretending to be a man. A cross dresser is a man who enjoys being a man, but enjoys some elements of being a girl, like wearing pretty clothes, and being pretty. However, they have little or any desire to be a woman every day of their lives for the rest of their lives.

But there is also a large group of people who are "trapped in the middle". They would like to be women, but they don't have the resources to do so, they would require substantial medical work beyond the HRT and SRS to pass, and/or they would have to accept consequences that would be unthinkable for most people.

If you gave someone one wish, and that wish was that they could be turned into a sexy beautiful young woman, they are transsexual.

If you give them 3 wishes and becoming a girl isn't at least one of the top three, they are probably cross-dressers.



the idea that many ts people leave the community makes the assumption that ts and cd people share a community... this is a controversial topic...

all i can say is that i have never met a transitioned transsexual that wishes she outed herself to MORE people..
[/QUOTE]

You make a legitimate point. When I attended transgender support meetings, one of the things that really hit home with me was how one girl, post-op, had her biggest concern as a post-op was that she didn't like it when people outed her as previously being a man. She was a bit heavier but very feminine, and if she weren't in the meeting, you wouldn't know. She made it pretty clear that she did not want to be outed by anyone at the meetings.

The conundrum for the transgendered person is how to live a life where you don't have to protect your secrets anymore. We live in both worlds, the world of men, and the world of women, and there are many insights an much wisdom we gain from both worlds, but we can't share that insight and wisdom with others without outing ourselves. This is true whether we are still living as men, in transition, or post-op.

[Badtranny]

As usual, experience nails it.

Stephie

Nails what exactly? She suggests that TS activists are mostly pre-op and she gets applause for that? Maybe they are and maybe they aren't but I hardly see the signifigance to anyone who isn't bragging about having SRS. People don't walk around with their genitals on display, so unless you ask how the heck would you know?

I do find it interesting that so few of these blessed post-ops choose to post pics of themselves, and many of the ones that do tend to look a hell of a lot more masculine than me and not only do I still have a penis, but I'm only 12 months into my transition!

The "voice of experience"tm is ONE person who transitioned. I see she rides a motorcycle too, I guess that makes her the lone authority on two wheeled transportation as well. I used to race a motorcycle competitively, so does that mean that any argument about motorcycles stops when I give my exalted opinion? There are THOUSANDS of post-ops in the world, and I would venture to say that a fairly good percentage of them would not be so enamored of this so called "voice of experience"tm.

I will fight until my last breath to make sure that this community has voices other than the bullies who try to intimidate people into adopting their particular brand of transition. These bullies have strong opinions on everything from dating to clothing styles and God help you if you don't fall in line. Well I've never been an activist for anything in my life but this board has motivated me to do just that. I will not stand by and just watch the bullies have their way with those who are more easily dissuaded.

I get letters now and again from people who are scared to consider who they might be. They find my blog and write me thinking I can give them some words of wisdom. Mostly I cannot, but one thing I don't do is belittle them or berate them for living a life that I couldn't imagine living. I speak for the people that are too timid or lack the talent to speak for themselves. My voice is their voice.

[Melody Moore]

Thank you Melissa for your well balanced comment - the scrutinising, discrimination and bigotry of some of the more
senior members is what brought them all unstuck recently in my local support group and it was revealed that our group
was a lot more diverse than some of them believed it to be with even the out-going coordinator admitting to the group
that she had no intentions of undergoing gender reassignment surgery. A matriarch to the local trans community was
the first at the meeting to bring this issue up in response to a statement being made by one of the more senior members
that the group was only for those undergoing FULL transition. Others also admitted they wont undergo GRS because of
age and health issues. So the key to our group surviving was to become more open and accepting of gender diversity.

Even my psychologist & the director of the Sexual Health Service who I am involved with
strongly supports me about this along with community leaders from my LGBT community.

If you had been at this meeting the result and the final outcome was priceless with one of the most senior post-op
bigots who tried to rally against me - she left whining like spoilt 12 year child as she walked out the door for the very
last time. The deadwood seems to always take care of itself and falls off in the end. She was so counter-productive
that group she will not be missed by anyone - everyone complained how they felt intimidated by the things she said
and done - like holding her nose high & staring down her nose and people and ignoring them when they tried to speak
to her and I kid you not about the body language - she thought she was the queen of transsexuals here in Cairns and
only her way was the right path to gender transition.

I will reveal to this forum very soon a new website I am developing to show the way that the support group now
operates and I am sure there will be no dispute that it is one of the best websites to support the transgender
community with a special emphasis to support those in transition. Previously this group had no official identity
or policies to protect it's members and all that is set to change when the group adopts the new constitution
I am drafting up that will define the objectives and policies for how the group will operate. This also about
establishing a proper association that will be supported and funded by various bodies, including the local
government which has pledged full support for my key proposals. Times are a changing for how we deal with
the transgender issue for the sake of those who don't pass really well or decide they don't need to have GRS.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Debbie good points...if someone is struggling and simply can't their act together to transition..they can find comfort in places where crossdressing is openly and commonly practiced...

Melody
girls that don't pass have exactly the same rights as girls that do pass...
how are we changing how we deal with people that don't pass?

outside of bathroom rights, how are we changing dealing with people that don't have GRS?
in my state i was declared female prior to my srs... this is clearly the direction things are already going..

you got rid of the woman that lived her life in a way that allowed her to afford surgeries and successfully transition...it does sound like she was a jerk but it also sounds like people are jealous of her success..
i don't think its a bad idea to break out sessions around people that are fully transitioning and not.. but i do think its a bad idea to exclude a person with that kind of experience no matter how obnoxious she may be..calling her deadwood tells me its personal and as a leader of groups i would urge you to take personal out of the equation as best you can..

I blend, but i take big risks with my choice..i speak to colleges, and have presented at doctors offices how to treat ts patients with compassion...my daughters friends all know me.. so even though i say i don't want to be out... i sneak out and advocate in places far from where i live..and because i live in my house since 2006, my whole neighborhood knows all about me...i'm like the purloined letter..

and the reason my picture is offsite melissa is because i don't want f$*k everybody up with my almost supernatural beauty.. ;)

[Melody Moore]

Kaitlyn,

the answer to your first question is by promoting more trans-awareness to better educate
our local community views people that might be still very androgynous in their appearance.

And that is right, laws are changing, so society is starting to recognise that gender identity
is not defined by our genitalia - we don't walk around showing off what is between our legs
and this is what some of the hard-liners in our group had to try and get their heads around.
The way support groups are operating is changing and there is more acceptance of gender
diversity and so far this has been one of the main problems in this group that has held it back.

No-one got rid of anyone the decision to leave the group was noone else's but her own. She
is not the only post-op woman in the group and has contributed nothing to the group except
to walk in once in a blue moon wave like she is some type of queen of royalty would talk to
only a couple of more senior members of the group, stare down her nose at everyone else
then would turn around and leave after ignoring those who tried to talk to her - noone is at
all jealous of her successes. Two of the group are heading to Dr Suporn early next year and
I am aiming for September or October next year. As I said this woman excluded herself from
the group, but she started doing this quite some time ago. She tried to rally against me to
keep the group exclusive to those that intended to go all the way with gender transition.

Kate's comments sometimes reminds me of the rhetoric I got from this woman - and one of the things
that most concerned the director was about some of the complaints I got from the new members
about the things she said to them that completely demoralises them. One of these people I am now
mentoring and has finally started hormones doing hair removal and whatever else she can. This woman
that left told her this new girl would never make it - but I beg to differ, the new girl just needed some
proper support & guidance which others who where meant to be the leaders were to lazy to give to her.

I could have been really cheeky after the comments she made as she left, but I decided not
to. Other members including the director from my local gender clinic said I handled her perfectly

So no harm done there at all hun.

And come on Kaitlyn, don't be shy, dazzle us with your beauty ;)

[Aprilrain]

When I attended transgender support meetings, one of the things that really hit home with me was how one girl, post-op, had her biggest concern as a post-op was that she didn't like it when people outed her as previously being a man. She was a bit heavier but very feminine, and if she weren't in the meeting, you wouldn't know. She made it pretty clear that she did not want to be outed by anyone at the meetings.

Im confused? wouldn't being at the meeting pretty much give it away???

[Frances]

and the reason my picture is offsite melissa is because i don't want f$*k everybody up with my almost supernatural beauty.. ;)

Awesome!mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Stephenie S]

Nails what exactly? She suggests that TS activists are mostly pre-op and she gets applause for that? Maybe they are and maybe they aren't but I hardly see the signifigance to anyone who isn't bragging about having SRS. People don't walk around with their genitals on display, so unless you ask how the heck would you know?

I do find it interesting that so few of these blessed post-ops choose to post pics of themselves, and many of the ones that do tend to look a hell of a lot more masculine than me and not only do I still have a penis, but I'm only 12 months into my transition!

The "voice of experience"tm is ONE person who transitioned. I see she rides a motorcycle too, I guess that makes her the lone authority on two wheeled transportation as well. I used to race a motorcycle competitively, so does that mean that any argument about motorcycles stops when I give my exalted opinion? There are THOUSANDS of post-ops in the world, and I would venture to say that a fairly good percentage of them would not be so enamored of this so called "voice of experience"tm.

I will fight until my last breath to make sure that this community has voices other than the bullies who try to intimidate people into adopting their particular brand of transition. These bullies have strong opinions on everything from dating to clothing styles and God help you if you don't fall in line. Well I've never been an activist for anything in my life but this board has motivated me to do just that. I will not stand by and just watch the bullies have their way with those who are more easily dissuaded.

I get letters now and again from people who are scared to consider who they might be. They find my blog and write me thinking I can give them some words of wisdom. Mostly I cannot, but one thing I don't do is belittle them or berate them for living a life that I couldn't imagine living. I speak for the people that are too timid or lack the talent to speak for themselves. My voice is their voice.

I said "experience nails it" because she is right.

That's all. I am not expousing any particular form of transitioning. There are many ways.

All I am saying is that it's highly presumptuous for a pre-op to try and tell a post-op what it's all about. Or even what it SHOULD be all about. Kate knows of what she speaks. She has been there and done that. It would behoove you to listen to her. You can disagree, but when someone ELSE points out that she just MIGHT know what she's talking about, you sound a little silly when you attackj from such an uninformed position.

A girl with a penis is not a girl. There. I said it. Sorry. You, BadTranny, are smokin' hot, and obviouisly well on your way to a successful transition. But when you are finally post-op, you will be able to look back and say, "Oh, now I get it. I guess Kate knew what she was talking about after all."

Or maybe not. You may very well say, "Kate was full of it. What an jerk she was." But at that point you will be talking from a position of KNOWLEDGE, not conjecture.

S

To clarify, Kate has spent a good deal of time professionally counseling pre-op transgender people. It was her JOB. She is not just espousing her personal opinion.

S

[Badtranny]

Or maybe not. You may very well say, "Kate was full of it. What an jerk she was." But at that point you will be talking from a position of KNOWLEDGE, not conjecture.

This is a fair statement, and I don't have an argument for you. (can you believe it?) Of course I strongly disagree, but it's a fair statement nonetheless.

...and thank you for the sweet "smokin' hot" comment.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

frankly i think Kate's comments come from knowledge but the nature of the way she says it pretty much buggers her credibility..
the fact she has knowledge becomes irrelevant...which is a shame because alot of what she communicates has value..

and in my opinion melody when you go on and on railing against the "queen", the personal nature of the comments decreases the impact of your many positive contributions....talking about your own meaningful experience is different than MAKING it ABOUT your experience...when you talk about what you are actually doing to increase education and awareness, i enjoy reading your posts much more...i'm sorry but thats the way i see it..

one issue that forever separates post ops and non ops is the "girl with a penis" idea.. all i can add to that is that i was incredibly offended when people talked about that prior to my surgery...but afterwards i felt differently in a way i've tried to openly and honestly discuss... one way to close the gap is to agree that there is absolutely nothing at all wrong with being a girl with a penis...the only real life day to day implication I can even think of is bathroom use anyway...other than that its a personal choice of how to live your life and what to do with your body...its not about right or wrong... its not about whether I think YOU would be better off..all i can really say is I was better off, and I was surprised by how much...

[AKAMichelle]

This is kind of a no brainer, at least for me. Aside form being an activist why in the world would anyone who could get away from this not want to? If you were a slave and someone gave you the choice to live as a slave or have your freedom.. would you choose to remain a slave? If as stated in the OP, if you are living as a woman and are passing.. everywhere would pretty much be "tg friendly" (whether they know it or not):heehee:
Transitioning is like going to college. You study whats' this thing all about? You learn Why am I like this and how do I deal with it? You take the tests coming out to friends,family,co-workers. A lot of us intern RLE.
Eventually we graduate and get our degree, and say goodbye to school and our classmates. Some wish to remain and teach, others use what they have learned and venture forth to live their lives. We may keep in contact with some we have met along the way, and we may return to school every now and then... kinda sounds like pretty normal life doesn't it?

I really like the way that you said this. After all everyone who is transitioning is striving for total acceptance. Why would you want want to continue carrying a flag to tell the world that you are a little different?

[kellycan27]

I really like the way that you said this. After all everyone who is transitioning is striving for total acceptance. Why would you want want to continue carrying a flag to tell the world that you are a little different?

Added to what i said earlier, let me throw this out there. I come, I go, I enjoy, and at times I am saddened by what I read. I believe that for some of us non-activist types, there are more reasons that we may fade away. One reason may be that we no longer face a lot of the issues that others are struggling with. I have had girls approach me and ask for my help or advice, and while I can offer words of encouragement or pat them on the head and say don't worry, things will be alright, I know it my head that once they turn off their computer and are out there alone my words of encouragement and 3.00 may get them a cup of coffee. ( been there .. got the t-shirt) I would like to help them, and I wish I could wave my magic wand and make it okay.. I can't. At times I don't know what to say that would make a difference... and at times there is NOTHING I can say, and it makes me sad and makes me feel impotent at times. There is a lot of pain, and suffering, sorrow and hurt associated with this thing.. When does it stop? There is also the resentment factor. believe it or not ( lol) there are people who resent the fact that you have been able attain a certain amount of success. I have lost a few TS friends who were quite happy to be my friend until I had SRS and or entered into a loving relationship. It was fine for them to talk about themselves and what they were experiencing, but they didn't want to talk about mine. One asked my point blank NOT to talk about those things because she found it hurtful, one stopped talking to me all together. Who needs that? When it comes right down to it,, there are probably 100's of reasons why some just walk away. just saying........................

Kelly

[GypsyKaren]

I have had girls approach me and ask for my help or advice, and while I can offer words of encouragement or pat them on the head and say don't worry, things will be alright, I know it my head that once they turn off their computer and are out there alone my words of encouragement and 3.00 may get them a cup of coffee. ( been there .. got the t-shirt) I would like to help them, and I wish I could wave my magic wand and make it okay.. I can't.

Kelly

Exactly. Everything that you can possibly say is something they already know, and you can be a cheerleader on the sidelines but they have to make the decision to get moving. I spent four years on staff and always made myself available to anyone, I doubt there's too many that were more generous with their time than I was, but I wish I had a dollar for every hour I wasted talking to a set of closed ears, I could buy myself a pretty slick guitar. There is no magic wand, but that's what too many are looking for.

Karen Starlene :star: