Who's really passing?

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Ran across a striking re-thinking of the "passing" issue by Lacey Leigh (http://www.laceyleigh.com/). Lacey points out that despite what we'd like to think, few of us will be mistaken for GGs. If we're not read, it's more that people either don't notice or don't care. Consequently:


I measure my success as a crossdresser by the number of people I encounter who (if they bother to notice at all) recognize me as a man in a dress but regard me with the same degree of indifference they award any other stranger. If they treat me the same as everyone else, they pass.

Seems like the right attitude to me.

[jolien]

Great point. I have only recently been out and so far only one time. But in that short time, I did realize that most people do not pay any attention. I guess when you think about it, that is all we should really want. Just to be a girl in public like all the other girls.

[ChrissyCrossedLegs]

I am sure other posts have exhausted the theme of passing etc etc.. but it had dawned on me that if one dresses the way most women do in the street during the day.. jeans t-dshirt - no make up - hair all over everywhere - you'd probably have a better chance of passing.. or then again.. suree you get me...
Also .. think about what happens when there is an incedent involving a crime... lots of poeple witness the crime, even the criminal. If you ask an e-fit artist when they go through when this kind of thing happens you'd be amazed.. two people stood right by the side of each other see TOTALLY different things.. why.. see point made in your post.. they werer't really paying any attention in the first place.
The less attention we bring to ourselves the more chance we have of passing.. even if that means us being invisable.

Hugz SammyJo

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i have recently been out a number of times after having been out only a few time over many yrs..

whats interesting is that the more i go out, the more i feel like i'm NOT noticed by anybody...i've posted some of the things that have happened to me recently..the more i'm NOT noticed, the more confident i am. i'm bracing for the moment when i get the cat call (hey thats a guy!!!!).

i am quite certain that given my size and the way i look, there is no way in this world i can fully engage anybody and have them think i'm a real woman...
even without speaking

HOWEVER,,, even i know i'm only pretending to be a girl and so far its been very rare that anyone acknowledges me as NOT a woman, and have been called maam and miss a few times (which i posted about last week and was VERY exciting and fun)..even when i felt it was obvious to the other person they either werent 100% sure or they let me be (ie let me pass)

its such an interesting question, because i know we all have this "thing" called crossdressing but i think our needs and desires about it can be very different...if i knew for certain that no one would ever bother me or yell hey thats a guy!!!!!! i would go EVERYWHERE dressed....i'm sure that to others of us its more important to really pass as a gg and to others they couldnt care less about being hassled...

cool question

michele

[uknowhoo]

I must concur with the posts above. So many of us are so paranoid when most of the rest of the world could hardly care (no that that's necessarily a bad thing).

Btw, SammyJo, you look just like a girl I met at a local bar a few weeks ago.

Have a good weekend ladies.

Hugs,

Tammi

[urban gypsy]

I personally go out dressed as any other gg, as unless I'm going somewhere special what the point of spending a couple of hours getting ready just go out for a pint of milk.
Plus going out in daylight in just trousers, nice fem top and a pair of fashionable shoes. no one would even give you a second look. Add to this falsesie's , wig and a touch of make up and the only stares you get are people doing a double take.
But I am going to be very honest here and I know that in daylight I would not have a hope in hell of passing as a true girl so I don't try I just dress to a level that I feel comfortable with.
But if I am going out at night to a club its amazing the difference the low lighting makes mixed with alcohole. So I usually go the whole way with the look, and Anne Marie tells me before we walk out the door if I have got the look right or not.
So passing as a girl is how you feel and not always how you look to others.

[Stlalice]

I've posted on this before so I'll keep it short here - passing is 80 to 90% about your attitude and how comfortable you are with yourself. If you dress to blend in and act as if you have every right to be where you are most people will not pay you any attention. My answer to one woman who asked who I thought I was fooling was "Nobody - I'm just trying to live with some semblance of peace in my own skin." From the look on her face that was the last thing she expected to hear! She also had no further comment - but I suspect maybe a bit of thinking to do. :D

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Good thoughts everyone. Obviously, how you dress and act will in part determine the reception you get. If you go out like a stripper, you'll get the same sort of reaction a GG who dressed similarly would. If you dress like GGs of similar age and background do, you'll probably blend in.

But my main point was about is how Lacey reverses the equation -- namely it's others who "pass" the test if they treat us the same as everyone else.

Makes a huge difference in how you approach things when you're out. In other words, I'm not worried about their judgement, rather I'm the one who will judge them on their tolerance. Alice's reply was exactly in that mindset.

[Deborah]

I am sure other posts have exhausted the theme of passing etc etc.. but it had dawned on me that if one dresses the way most women do in the street during the day.. jeans t-dshirt - no make up - hair all over everywhere - you'd probably have a better chance of passing..
Hugz SammyJo

Interesting....GG's now days are dressing less femme more boyish while there are those who love to dress totally femme and look good. The latter being male of course...Hmm maybe one day all men will wear dresses and women will be the ones in jeans only. :D

[Holly]

To me, passing is nothing more than NOT drawing attention to myself. To be sure, it is a challenge at 6'2" and with a body frame that will never be mistaken for petite, but it IS achievable. And attitude is very important. Act like you belong and most people will accept that as fact.

[FionaAlexis]

Going back to the Lacey Leigh quote:

I measure my success as a crossdresser by the number of people I encounter who (if they bother to notice at all) recognize me as a man in a dress but regard me with the same degree of indifference they award any other stranger. If they treat me the same as everyone else, they pass.

One part of me thinks yes that is a good way of looking at things and there is no doubt that, in part, I measure my success by returning home unscathed and unchallenged. Another part of me thinks the last sentence in bold is quite intolerant of others’ sensibilities. It seems a bit presumptious to me. It is the same sort of attitude that believes that EVERYONE around us is required to accept us. And if you don’t accept me then YOU are the lesser being.. I’ve never been sure about that one because we are simply making a lifestyle choice – and we are not living with some physical or mental disability.

It also seems to me that ‘passing’ is becoming confused ‘getting away with it’ or 'being accepted' for the person we are - living a different lifestyle. In an earlier thread I suggested that in most parts of Western society there is a ‘live and let live’ tolerance to others on the fringes of ‘normality’. The vast majority of people won’t annoy you unless they are having a really bad hair day and you're in their way. In my own suburb I can think of a dozen people who are eccentric fringe dwellers and who dress and behave quite differently – but all of whom are treated with total indifference.

My intention, when I go out, is to pass as a female and there is no doubt that I am more likely to achieve that result if, as Alice suggests, I am confident. However it would be wrong to think that confidence overcomes everything else - it doesn't. Confidence will probably ensure you ‘get away with it’ – but ‘passing’ is something much more elusive.

Fiona xx

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Another part of me thinks the last sentence in bold is quite intolerant of others’ sensibilities. It seems a bit presumptious to me.

Taken literally, I agree it's arrogant. It's what I hope is a bit of hyperbole on Lacey's part. OTOH, we're often so terrified about what others will think of us, it's a useful thought experiment to reverse the situation and get out of the "I'm at the mercy of others" mentality.

[tari]

God, I love that Stalice. Your answer to that woman was perfect

[robinLynn]

im just startin out i dont evenknow what to do

[Lauren_T]

...
Another part of me thinks the last sentence in bold is quite intolerant of others’ sensibilities. It seems a bit presumptious to me. It is the same sort of attitude that believes that EVERYONE around us is required to accept us. And if you don’t accept me then YOU are the lesser being.. I’ve never been sure about that one because we are simply making a lifestyle choice – and we are not living with some physical or mental disability....
Ectually, Fiona, I would say that your premise is faulty, as it makes a unsupported generalisation.

The word 'we' in the phrase 'we are simply making a lifestyle choice' is a clinker. Had you said 'some of us' or even 'many of us,' then you would have had a valid asertion there... but 'choice' in context here clearly implies that CDing is entirely voluntary. Not so. Some number of us are compelled to crossdress, out of a powerful need to express our true core identity - and something done under compulsion is not truly voluntary.

What we are doing, I would say, is asserting the fundamental human right to openly express what, for some of us, is a voluntary lifestyle choice, but for others is their core identity.

And a person who would scoff at, disapprove publically of, abuse, insult or molest another person - who is making a 100% passive personal statement that violates no others' rights - is acting in an oppressive manner and thereby violating a human right.

And yes, I would assert that this, in fact, does make the oppressor, by definition, a 'lesser being' for violating the social contract, as well as fundamental principles of freedom and personal liberty.

The difference between, say, lynching a person for the color of their skin and abusing a person for passively expressing their gender identity is one of degree only. The other party is the agressor, the active participant in the social transaction, and as such, is the one whose behaviour is subject to judgement.

In short, we all have every right to judge, disapprove of and reject the behaviour of those who would violate our human right to be ourselves.

The "sensibilities" of others is a red herring. Each of us has the right to harbour whatever attitude we choose toward others for whatever reason we deem right and proper; what we do not have is the right to express that attitude in a manner that violates others' right to simple self-determination and -expression.

Jews in Nazi Germany could have made the 'lifestyle choice' of not expressing their Jewish identity, thereby offending the 'sensibilities' of the majority.

So: yes, everyone around me is, in fact, required to accept me - by letting me alone and minding their own business. That is how I treat them, and I have every right to expect the same in return!

[FionaAlexis]

Ectually, Fiona, I would say that your premise is faulty, as it makes a unsupported generalisation.

The word 'we' in the phrase 'we are simply making a lifestyle choice' is a clinker. Had you said 'some of us' or even 'many of us,' then you would have had a valid asertion there... but 'choice' in context here clearly implies that CDing is entirely voluntary. Not so. Some number of us are compelled to crossdress, out of a powerful need to express our true core identity - and something done under compulsion is not truly voluntary.

What we are doing, I would say, is asserting the fundamental human right to openly express what, for some of us, is a voluntary lifestyle choice, but for others is their core identity.


Lauren – usually I’m on the same wavelength as you but I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I certainly agree that many of us have gender dysphoria and are transgendered and we have no choice on that one. And many of us have a powerful need to dress as our self identified gender and present as our self identified gender – but I don’t know that any of us are compelled to crossdress and present as our self identified gender in public….all of us make that choice. Certainly those of us who are ‘inbetweenies’ are making a lifestyle choice. And even those who live full time and transition made a lifestyle choice.

I grant you that there are a small percentage of classic transsexuals who have an even stronger identification with their non birth gender and they often transition very early in life - and perhaps they have less room to maneouvre.

I am 100% in favour of each individual’s right to live as they wish. I am 100% in favour of legislation that prohibits discrimination against transgenders or crossdressers but that is not what this thread is about. Well that’s not my interpretation of it.

I think it is political correctness gone bonkers to suggest that everyone out there has to accept and approve of every CD and every tranny no matter what – and, if you don’t, you are violating some human right. There are all kinds of reasons why individuals might feel offended by individual trannies. Most of us, at some time, get scoffed at in life for all kinds of reasons – but it is only when that show of disapproval turns to open harassment, bullying or violence that it becomes an issue of rights.

If I’m out dressed and get read by some mother of a toddler who pulls the kid out of my path and glares at me. I may feel offended and insulted that she feels I’m a dangerous person – but it is certainly her prerogative to feel that way.

I don’t believe we can expect others to unconditionally accept every tranny and approve of our lifestyle.

Fiona xx

[Kaitlyn Michele]

everyone should agree that "passing" for a transsexual and for a transvestite are completely different things..

i am a crossdresser myself, so all i really want is to dress up and although i truly wish that while dressed and i could go anywhere and do anything and everyone would think i was a woman, i am resigned to what i can "get away with" and as i get older i seem to care less what people think and therefore end up getting away with more!!!! for a ts, its vital to BE a woman and for someone to hassle or obviously identify you as a male must be terribly painful..

in a way, that makes the ts going out into the world a more risky proposition!!
i get made, so what, i move on next time i might "pass"..i'm going to focus on the time i passed..as far as other people treating me a certain way, i feel i have no more right to DEMAND they accept me than they have the right to DEMAND i dress a certain way...its even stevens and thats just the way life is


this is such an interesting topic

[Stephanie Kay]

Great point. I have only recently been out and so far only one time. But in that short time, I did realize that most people do not pay any attention. I guess when you think about it, that is all we should really want. Just to be a girl in public like all the other girls.


I'm with Jolien here. I just want to be a girl in public like all the other girls! And I am, even at 6'4" and 240 lbs!:D

[Kimberly]

... sounds good Darla! :)

[Francine]

I wish I was "passing". But for me, it seem to be my height that make me "noticable". At almost 6'4" tall, it seem to be difficult.

I suppose it is a state of mind. But my mind lately, has been on more tg'ing and maybe..even ts???

Any other "tall gals" feel this way?

Francine

[windycissy]

...passing is 80 to 90% about your attitude and how comfortable you are with yourself. If you dress to blend in and act as if you have every right to be where you are most people will not pay you any attention.

Beautiful! I could not have put it better myself. After all, there are millions of big, broad-shouldered women out there, trying to make themselves look pretty. So you're a guy...imagine that you were born a woman, act and dress that way, and you'll get by.

[Lauren_T]

Well, Fiona, your reasoning is sound and accurate... I merely feel that you may have read too much into LL's suggested concept of others' 'passing,' or being awarded our approval. I would say that it's not to suggest overtly expressing disapproval of those who fail to display "the same degree of indifference they award any other stranger;" it merely suggests adopting an emotional-survival-friendly mindset - a bit of mental jujitsu to nullify what is usually an emotionally debilitating experience. A defense, if you will, against a form of passive mental assault that cannot be avoided, since it cannot be prevented or forbidden. Your thoughts on this definition?


...
I don’t know that any of us are compelled to crossdress and present as our self identified gender in public….all of us make that choice. Certainly those of us who are ‘inbetweenies’ are making a lifestyle choice. And even those who live full time and transition made a lifestyle choice. This is a minor point, but let me offer this; do you not agree that there are gender-variant individuals (a number of them here, with whom we are both familiar, as it happens) who are at a stage in gender realisation at which they are willing to put themselves at quite considerable personal / interpersonal / marital / familial / social / profesional / fiscal risk in order to adopt the countenance of their self-identified gender? I suggest that defying a compulsion strong enough to be worth possibly losing one's position in society for acting on is a choice akin in difficulty to quitting heroin cold turkey. You may choose to do it; but that doesn't mean you can.


...
I think it is political correctness gone bonkers to suggest that everyone out there has to accept and approve of every CD and every tranny no matter what – and, if you don’t, you are violating some human right.As a rabid antiPCist, I say you're right; overt acceptance, let alone approval, cannot be expected. 'Out there,' meaning 'in public,' every citizen is to be expected to only observe the fundaments of the social contract - to not tangibly interfere with another's right to self-determination, as you correctly noted:

...it is only when that show of disapproval turns to open harassment, bullying or violence that it becomes an issue of rights.Now we're cooking with camel dung! :) Only overt action counts; as we know, the very idea of mandating opinions is indeed yet another PC absurdity, Orwell's 'thoughtcrime'.


I don’t believe we can expect others to unconditionally accept every tranny and approve of our lifestyle.

Fiona xxNo argument here! First, 'approve' goes straight into the bin. So innit all about how we define 'accept'? As you say, we should not be harassed, bullied or subjected to violence - which is - or should be - a reasonable definition of 'acceptance.' So, fundamentally, I would say we have no disagreement on that issue.

But I do maintain that we have no less right to feel disapproval of them than they have to disapprove of us. And as per Lacey Leigh's suggestion, I likewise suggest that we each have the right to regard a disapproving individual - whose prejudice is, by definition, based on what are known to be irrational, false, degrading stereotypes - as demonstrating a lower degree of mental development than oneself. No overt action directed at anyone, simply an internally held attitude, instilling needed confidence. Someone sneers at you because you're in a dress, LL suggests, you sneer back - within the confines of your mind... - because you have every right to...

Ergo, I would allege that it is not arrogant to regard a bigot as a bigot.

And that mindset, deflecting disapproval back upon the disapprovers, is what this thread is all about, innit? It harms no one, and entails no coercion of those who don't approve of us, but helps us maintain our resolve and even more importantly, our self-esteem.

[FionaAlexis]

And that mindset, deflecting disapproval back upon the disapprovers, is what this thread is all about, innit? It harms no one, and entails no coercion of those who don't approve of us, but helps us maintain our resolve and even more importantly, our self-esteem.

Thank you for your comments, Lauren,

I think that positive self talk is a good idea and having a bit of bravado seems to work for some people. And yes - it is about deflecting disapproval back on the disapprovers. However, it does sort of reminds me of a story a local Irish stand up, Jimeoin, tells about the farmer whose tractor breaks down in the middle of harvesting. He considers his options and decides the only viable option is to borrow a tractor from the owner of the next farm. As he walks to the other farm he goes through all the different scenarios of what he’ll say and how the other farmer might respond – with each response getting more negative and nastier. In the end he bangs on the neighbour’s door and yells ‘you can stick your bloody tractor up your bum’.

Also yes, it is probably right that some trannies find themselves in that compulsive situation but I think most of us have a firm grasp of reality of our own situation, whatever that might be, and factor that in to how we move forward.

Fiona xx

[Andrea's Lynne]

I'm on the tall side at 6 feet even, and don't think I'd ever be mistaken as a woman. Feeling at peace in my own skin, on the other hand, is more important to me.......and I'm a work in progress:o

Lynne

[Richelle]

Windy has it right. Be a lady and you will be treated like a lady. When windy and I went shoping together last spring, she was a true lady and we had no problems passing.



imagine that you were born a woman, act and dress that way, and you'll get by.


Richelle

[Lauren_T]

I already knew it intellectually, but I didn't feel it, until I experienced it firsthand... but I am now convinced that 80 to 90% of acceptance comes about, as you gels have noted, by confident behaviour on your own part, rather than the attitudes of those we come into contact with.

Something that happened the other day set my mind working on this issue:

I stopped by a radiator shop to pick up my employer's gas tank. The manager had to go into his office to get the paperwork, so I followed him. When he opened the door, a longhaired Chihuahua instantly got up and made a beeline for me. I had never seen this little person before (I define a person, logically, as any being that has a personality... well, duh!), so I did the standard unfamiliar-dog routine, I crouched down, bringing me closer to his eyelevel, presented my open hand, palm up, looked him in the eye and raised my voice an octave. He ran up to my hand, looked into my face briefly, looked at my hand, sniffed it, then licked it. I then proceeded to pat his head and scratch him behind the ears, which he liked, and he started wagging his tail and licked my hand some more.

I became aware that the owner was standing right there and I looked up to see an incredulous expression on his face. He said, "What did you do?? He never lets a stranger touch him! He's bitten my kid, and he lives with him!" I told him that animals just take to me, since I approach them without fear. They pick up on the most subtle changes in scent, vocal inflection and motion - if you are actually afraid of a dog, no matter how friendly you try to act, they still know it, and react accordingly. I am conditioned to being accepted by animals, and they can tell, so they in turn don't fear me... He was so put out by his doggie's behaviour that he told his workers, all of whom looked at me with no small amazement, telling me how that was a 'vicious little dog.' Actually, their preconception that he was vicious was what made him fulfill their expectations!

And I believe you can see the point I'm making with that anecdote, in light of our discussion of approaching strangers in public situations with a sense of confidence...:)

[TGMarla]

Well, I really don't think I pass. I think I just look like a guy in a dress. I guess it doesn't matter, really, from what I'm hearing here. A lot of you very sweet ladies have offered some very nice compliments to me here, and I appreciate it more than I can ever say. No one has ever told me I was pretty before. But I'm still a big chicken to go out in public. One of these days, though, one of these days....

[Ibuki_Warpetal]

You'd be amazed at how many people are actually staring at you at any given moment.

I'm one of those people that pays attention to everything. I look at everything, everywhere, and people are always staring right at me.

What I've learned is 1) judgement shall be reckoned forthwith at all times
2) it doesn't matter because it doesn't matter.

"Passing" is nothing more than illusion you bring to yourself because you want to believe you can fool others or fit in with a particular crowd.

That said I pass for a guy every time I am seen, but can I assess what other people are making of my sexuality or gender or closet hobbies?

No, and it doesn't bother me.

This post is probably a little OT. :p