Ever wonder why a disproportinate number of trans girls are lesbian? [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Katesback

09-26-2011, 01:46 PM

Statistics and more statisitics. We have them all. What I find most interesting is the disproportinate number of TS girls that identify as lesbian. We are talking about a very high percentage far in excess of natal born women.

So why is that? Anyone ever think about it?

I have some ideas. See when you start transition one has this dream of dating the perfect man but as they become further entrenched as a woman in society that dream is often shattered with the sad fact that there are VERY few decent men.

Throw in the fact that virtually no straight man wants a woman with a penis and a lot dont want a woman that had a penis and you can start to see why many TS are lesbian.

Add to the mix that fact that a lot of TS women do not escape trannyland so they remain a tranny regardless of having had SRS or not. Once again decent straight men want a woman. That excludes anything but a woman.

Finally the perhaps the biggest contributor to why so many TS are lesbian is that many go through the hell of transition and then choose not to take on the task of introspection and evolution of learning to be with a man. It is so easy to simply resort back to the already learned experinces of being with a woman.

Finally lets face it, lesbians are less likely to reject a TS girl than a straight man is. Who wants to deal with rejection?

Katiehttp://http://www.flickr.com/photos/27063499@N04/5253863093/in/photostream

Zenith

09-26-2011, 02:11 PM

This is so misguided, I don't know where to begin...

Bree-asaurus

09-26-2011, 02:34 PM

This is so misguided, I don't know where to begin...

Yeah, this is why I like to ignore kate.

And kate, if you've left "trannyland" why are you still here?

Ignorance.

Katesback

09-26-2011, 02:41 PM

Well..... instead of disagreeing with me why not try to answer the question that is posed?

Kaitlyn26

09-26-2011, 02:43 PM

So basically it's the men's fault? Isn't that what every lesbian says? A little one sided don't you think? How about their love for the female body? Their own misguided physiological imprinting? General resistance to change that most people have? Pure and simple laziness? A lack of help and guidance, that every young woman probably gets, from the GG's themselves!

The only thing that you said that made any sense was, the lack of will to learn men. Sounds like maybe you need to learn this. You can have a man eating from your hand in minutes, if you know how to be with a man. You also should not take anyone at face value, and with a little work many men make very fitting husbands. The same way that many women also require work, or learning, to deal with the other gender on a romantic level. The best relationships are when both people in them change, and learn.

Can't do it because you're not a real woman? Go read the thread that Pythos made about his relationship with, what turned out to be a GG. Even to "one of us", it's damned hard to tell at times. Some people claim that they always know. I wonder how many times they've blushed at a GG that sat there and wondered why.

Lastly, I'd just like to say that, gay and bi men do not exist? Right?

Bree-asaurus

09-26-2011, 02:51 PM

Well..... instead of disagreeing with me why not try to answer the question that is posed?

Well, when you're side of the argument is blanket statements that transexuals are lazy and that no man alive would be with a girl with a penis, I don't feel like any insight or ideas I offer would be able to redeem this horrible start to a discussion.

Regina

09-26-2011, 02:55 PM

Kaitlyn26

09-26-2011, 02:59 PM

Well..... instead of disagreeing with me why not try to answer the question that is posed?

Is there something wrong with the other responses already posted?

Frances

09-26-2011, 03:10 PM

The question is totally valid and very interesting.

Niya W

09-26-2011, 03:11 PM

It depends on the age. I found that most that transition after 30 tend to like women but are bi. I never wanted to be with a man never will. It has nothing to do with learning to be with a man. Learn to be with a man presumes that women are suppose to be with men. i've yet to see a TS date women cause they can not get man. Now I've seen klesbain TS date other TS cause you don't have to explain any thing about being TS.

Here is some thing to think about too. Most of the pre op women I know lose their BF after SRS go figure that one out .

kellycan27

09-26-2011, 03:24 PM

Might one's sexual orientation from the get go have something to do with this? We all know that gender and sexuality are two different things.......... Not everyone who transitions automatically changes teams.

Frances

09-26-2011, 03:29 PM

Katesback

09-26-2011, 03:30 PM

AllieSF

09-26-2011, 03:37 PM

I have thought about it as it applies to the complete MtF and FtM TG spectrum. For your thread let's start with the fact that what one may consider a decent man to be (please define your idea of what that is Kate) varies by individual. I hear it here so many times from CD's, sometimes from GG's, TS's and others, that most/all men are slobs, pigs, chauvinists, inconsiderate, only want to get in a woman's pants, etc. To me you just stated the same thing when saying that there are very few decent men. Well, dear Kate, being a man who associates with a lot of other men, yes, most of my choosing, my fact is that the majority of men are decent good people. If you hang around with the wrong types or look in the wrong places, that is who you will meet (you being everyone). It is hard for many people to find a partner in life because we all have our own filtering criteria which ends up limiting our choices and chances. I know because I have met very few partners so far that meet mine. I also know that I am picky and don't make excuses for it.

I agree with a lot of your ideas. It is hard enough to meet and date and get into a good lasting relationship with another person. Throw in the CD, TG, or TS background, that makes it even harder for most people. Yes, our history usually and eventually follows us into a relationship. Now, what about that there may be very few "decent" TS's out there too. I have met and talked with a lot of TS's, very few post op, read their posts here, listen to TS's fight and bicker and snap among themselves. I totally understand why that is too. Most TS's have been through a lot just to get to where they are and that can easily have a negative mental and emotional impact on them. Who really wants to make the effort to try to develop a relationship with anyone who carries that baggage, or any other serious baggage? I would guess it would be someone who understands, or can understand, what it is all about and can live and, maybe, most importantly, can deal with it when it raises its ugly head. Maybe that is that exceptional person (the rare "decent" man in this thread), or another TG, TS, CD, or maybe a woman (lesbian). I do not have much experience on this one, but based on what I have heard from a few TS's, some post op, and what I have read here, do lesbians really want a relationship with MtF TS's any more than a gay male would want one with a MtF TG, TS or CD? Have you have found that your chances for a better relationship is with a lesbian?

I never really liked the word "tranny". I heard it before (before I began to CD) and thought it was a negative connotation for transvestites, sex workers. Once I started dressing I started to learn more about it and its background. Now, I occasionally use it in a lite humorous manner among close friends with no negative meaning intended nor taken. However, why is it when it comes out of your mouth and a few others, I hear that negative tone again? Kate, do you mean it that way? It sounds like you think that they are not like you and are on a lower rung of the class ladder of what? Transsexuals, human beings? I rarely comment on your threads because not being a transsexual, I don't have some specific experience to offer all the time. From reading your threads and posts, I do respect where you have been, where you are, and a lot of what you think and offer up. Being someone who is sensitive to other people's tone of voice and style of writing, I think you come off harsh and arrogant many times when your message is sound and probably could have been stated in another way with equal or better results. Is your style of "telling it like it is" in your written tone of voice a typical women's trait (not typical in my experience), a male's trait (much more common to me), a transsexual's trait (new area for me, so no opinion yet), or what?

kellycan27

09-26-2011, 03:40 PM

In that case, why would so many trans women start out as lesbians (pre-transition)?

Because they were lesbians to begin with? Back to .... sexual orientation.

Genifer Teal

09-26-2011, 04:17 PM

Speaking directly to your question, no - I never wondered. To me it just seemed obvious. One fact has verry little connection to the other so why would chaniging one effect the other? Statisics show red cars are faster. Does that mean if I paint my car red it will be faster? I think statistics would show a moderate chance of being born gay and a lesser chance of being born trans. Now how likely is it to be born both? Probably way less than either. So to me there is no surprise - it just makes sense.

kellycan27

09-26-2011, 04:23 PM

I have always been attracted to women...and very little to men. I do harbor thoughts of a relationship with a man after SRS to "Test" the equipment beyond that I don't know and really don't care...I have no problem being able to get men who are attracted to TS girls if i wanted one. (turned a nice guy down Saturday night!) I have seen several relationships like this and found both were extremely happy with one another. So what does a straight guy have to do with this?

...if I want a relationship with a guy I really don't care if he is straight or not...as long as he likes me and we get along who cares!

RMD

I have always been attracted to men. I work, live and play in the mainstream, and the majority of men I meet and interact with are straight and I consider myself a heterosexual woman. I think I would be safe to say that the majority of gay guys wouldn't want a relationship with a girl. and as a heterosexual girl, I am not attracted to gay men I don't think either one of us would be happy for too long. You said that you aren't attracted to men, but then ad that you wouldn't care if he's straight or gay as long as he likes you and you get along.
What about the sexual aspect of this relationship? Liking girls.. would you be OK with him having a penis? Were he not straight would he be happy with your not ?
This is where whether the guy is straight or not would be paramount...... to me anyway.
Kel

Melody Moore

09-26-2011, 04:28 PM

Because they were lesbians to begin with? Back to .... sexual orientation.

I couldn't agree more. With some transsexuals their sexual orientation might change as they overcome any
hang ups they might of have with others their sexual orientations don't change. Even though I am open to the
idea of a relationship with a male - my issue is with finding a guy I can trust. Unfortunately life as a male allowed
me to see most men for the dirty disgusting two-faced creatures they really are. I had seen the most loyal of
guys I ever knew turn around and play up with another woman on his partner - so my problem is trust issues.

So Kate, rejection has very little to do with it - the only time I have to deal with rejection now is when I turn
down some scumbag who thinks I am just some dumb blonde sex-starved bimbo that he can have his way with.
But it is not me who has the issue with the rejection - it is the insecure egotiscal mofo I just gave the flick to
that has the rejection issues and can't deal with it. One arsehole got rude and obnoxious with me, another
arsehole tried to force himself on me and get violent with me - now that was a very bad mistake on his part. ;)

Frances

09-26-2011, 04:31 PM

Because they were lesbians to begin with? Back to .... sexual orientation.

Speaking directly to your question, no - I never wondered. To me it just seemed obvious. One fact has verry little connection to the other so why would chaniging one effect the other? Statisics show red cars are faster. Does that mean if I paint my car red it will be faster? I think statistics would show a moderate chance of being born gay and a lesser chance of being born trans. Now how likely is it to be born both? Probably way less than either. So to me there is no surprise - it just makes sense.

But the premise given by Kate is that there is a disproportinate number. That may or may not be true, but most trans women I see at support groups are lesbian-identitifed. It is also possible that the stats are wrong and that hetero trans women do not go to support groups, do not post on forums and disappear into society?

Fear may also be a strong motivator. As a post-op woman interested in men, I am afraid of bringing a guy into my appartment (which needs to be trans-proofed) right now and show my genitals to him. I fear being read or found out. I recently fooled around with a guy and let him feel me up through my clothes. He seemed content with what he found, but would he have felt the same seeing my 7 month old neo-vagina? I can definitely see the advantage of being with a woman. It turns out that I am bi, so being with a woman makes things easier. However, there is the call of the wild. I overcame a lot of fears and changed my body. Now, I have to change my appartement and overcome the fear of intimacy with a man who would not know my trans status, as I don't intend on being out with every partner.

xxchloexx

09-26-2011, 04:40 PM

i am unable to really give an accutrate answer,to the question reallly,if i was never with anyone ,id just love to live as the real me i guess...orientation is a strange thing,as to trans may or may not change this,i havent so i dont know and am unable to comment,for me its total inner happiness knowing im correct,the social side i can work on after im totally happy

Melody Moore

09-26-2011, 05:09 PM

Chloe - transition for me has nothing to do with my sexuality - if anything I used my sexuality as an excuse
to avoid transition. I use to believe that I wasn't a transsexual because I liked women - some transsexuals
struggle with the notion they are trans just because they are not attracted to men. There are a number of
people I have met on this forum and in my own group that went through this as well.

So for me its simple - I am focused on my transition & keeping my options open with my sexuality & base
any decision to go into a relationship around the connection I feel for a person regardless of their gender.
But so far there isn't any guys who have come along and swept me off my feet, but one should never rush
into love either no matter what gender or sexual orientation you are - so there is plenty of time left yet hun. ;)

kellycan27

09-26-2011, 05:13 PM

Fear may also be a strong motivator. As a post-op woman interested in men, I am afraid of bringing a guy into my appartment (which needs to be trans-proofed) right now and show my genitals to him. I fear being read or found out. I recently fooled around with a guy and let him feel me up through my clothes. He seemed content with what he found, but would he have felt the same seeing my 7 month old neo-vagina? I can definitely see the advantage of being with a woman. It turns out that I am bi, so being with a woman makes things easier. However, there is the call of the wild. I overcame a lot of fears and changed my body. Now, I have to change my appartement and overcome the fear of intimacy with a man who would not know my trans status, as I don't intend on being out with every partner.

This I can understand and it may well go back to some of Kate's points. ( a little off topic here) While I don't really see a moral obligation to disclose my status, I have found that if I meet someone who I am attracted to I will tell them up front. They may run or they may give it a go. I'd rather have them haul ass in the beginning, than some time after I have invested myself. Personally I would feel a lot safer, and a lot more comfortable if he knew up front. Casual dating... They( in my personal opinion).. need not know, but if I am interested (even from the start) for me the best rule of thumb is to lay my cards on the table. Not saying mine is the best or only way... just my way.
Now.. back to your regular scheduled programming.

(Read as in past tense.. I am married now and no longer dealing with this) lol

ameliabee

09-26-2011, 05:18 PM

I'm very curious as to why so many transwomen are lesbians too. Consider age at transition? Still working out the male conditioning?

The dynamic with a man just feels so much more natural to me... I've done much better with straight and bi men than with bi women and lesbians - even after telling whoever that I'm pre-op.

Lesbians, or at least the ones I've met, seem to be more intolerant about transwomen than straight men. Granted, I'm at a university, so the rhetoric from the Janice Raymond generation of (pseudo-)academics is probably filtering down to them through the Women's Studies department.

Melody Moore

09-26-2011, 05:28 PM

I have mostly been hit on my straight guys as well except for a few who were bisexuals & also 'tranny chasers'.
and I know already that I could never be with a guy who isn't straight because I am not interested in a gay type
relationship. A guy has to accept me as a female because I intend to go all the way with my transition. There
have been bi guys who have tried to talk me into not having GRS but I am not interested in what they want, this
is about what I want - so they quickly got the flick from me. But I think once I am post op then things will feel a
lot different, but how my sexual orientations go, its just a case of wait & see, but if that connection isn't there
well it's going to be very hard for me to want to go there with either a male or female.

Aprilrain

09-26-2011, 05:28 PM

I think the premise is inaccurate. Perhaps it only seems that there are more lesbian TS woman for some other non sexual orientation reason. Perhaps its all a figment of the OPs imagination. Some statistics I have read on medical websites indicated that trans woman work out to roughly 1/3s, 1/3 hetero, 1/3 lesbian, 1/3 bi OR asexual. i think the question is moot without some real data to back up the assertion that a disproportionate number of TS woman are lesbian.

I would consider myself either hetero or bi. I like guys but I still find my self attracted to woman that I see on the street now and then. I currently have a boyfriend and he's not attracted to men. I have a penis still but it really doesn't come into play during sex too much. I think he's figured out that though a chick with a dick maybe sounded like fun the reality is less exciting (of the dick part anyway) He would have no problem if I had the surgery tomorrow. I wouldn't have any problem trying out a girl again as long as she didn't expect me to be a man or function as a male in the relationship also I think it would primarily be just sex with girls where as with a guy I would prefer to be in a committed relationship

Melody Moore

09-26-2011, 05:35 PM

April, I heard also read somewhere that it is about 33% Heterosexual, 33% Lesbian, 33% Bisexual
or Asexual for trans-women as well. I will see if I can locate where I read that and confirm it.

AKAMichelle

09-26-2011, 05:46 PM

Chloe - transition for me has nothing to do with my sexuality - if anything I used my sexuality as an excuse
to avoid transition. I use to believe that I wasn't a transsexual because I liked women - some transsexuals
struggle with the notion they are trans just because they are not attracted to men. There are a number of
people I have met on this forum and in my own group that went through this as well.

I know this has been one of my stumbling blocks for years. I think the key to the question is that your sexual orientation just doesn't change. I don't think you switch to liking guys just because you are transitioning. But I do believe that it is an obstacle at least in my mind to moving forward any further.

Melody Moore

09-26-2011, 05:53 PM

Well, well, well, looky here at what I just found over on TSRoadmap.com - this certainly refutes all of Kate's theories.

http://www.tsroadmap.com/sexuality/annie-sexuality.html

http://www.transcairns.org/images/stories/sexual_orientation-trans-women.jpg

Torrey

09-26-2011, 05:53 PM

Most of the pre op women I know lose their BF after SRS go figure that one out .

My thought on this is that the BF is likely gay, and he cannot rationalize changing teams, as it were. The TS is effectively asking him to go into a straight relationship, SRS notwithstanding.

Andrea85

09-26-2011, 06:23 PM

This is just my personal experience, so take it with a grain of salt.

For me, I struggled with the idea of being with guys, but not in the sense of not wanting to change teams. The social conditioning I got when I was young taught me I should be with women, not men. I always liked guys and didn't even date my first woman till I was 19. That's only because I would have rather dated a man, but Seymour was a rather anti-gay area then.

Also, I do frequent some of the LBGT places that are local, and other than drag queens and just plain gay guys, most tras women date men, and mainly straight men. I personally would stay single before I got with a woman or gay guy. But no worries there for me cause I have me a nice muscly and tattooed straight guy as a boyfriend already. :)

kellycan27

09-26-2011, 06:28 PM

Stephenie S

09-26-2011, 06:31 PM

I think the reason is HOMOPHOBIA.

Even with a vagina a transitioned MtF still has to deal with a lifetime of anti-gay propaganda. The thought of being with a MAN may just be too much to bear.

Becoming a lesbian means this man on man issue can be ignored and not worked through.

S

Andrea85

09-26-2011, 06:38 PM

This I can understand and it may well go back to some of Kate's points. ( a little off topic here) While I don't really see a moral obligation to disclose my status, I have found that if I meet someone who I am attracted to I will tell them up front. They may run or they may give it a go. I'd rather have them haul ass in the beginning, than some time after I have invested myself. Personally I would feel a lot safer, and a lot more comfortable if he knew up front. Casual dating... They( in my personal opinion).. need not know, but if I am interested (even from the start) for me the best rule of thumb is to lay my cards on the table. Not saying mine is the best or only way... just my way.
Now.. back to your regular scheduled programming.

(Read as in past tense.. I am married now and no longer dealing with this) lol

Not just your way there. I do that too. Whether the other person in the situation considers it this or not, to me it's just a lie if it isn't told up front. Why even risk basing a relationship off a lie? Even on the dating sites I was on till my bf got together, my screen name was always t_girl_Andrea, and the first thing in my about me was I was pre-op trans woman. Pretty straight forward, and I was registered as female. Met a lot of good, straight guys that wanted a real relationship that way, but none met up to my ridiculous standards, except the love of my life. :) it was a good plan that got me a muscly retired air force sniper/ex cop/mma fighter covered in tattoos.

Bree-asaurus

09-26-2011, 06:40 PM

I know this has been one of my stumbling blocks for years. I think the key to the question is that your sexual orientation just doesn't change. I don't think you switch to liking guys just because you are transitioning. But I do believe that it is an obstacle at least in my mind to moving forward any further.

Some do, but i think it's more the exception than the rule. I know a couple of TS girls who changed teams after transitioning. Maybe it was always there.. who knows?

It's not a change in sexuality. Just like an MTF was never really a man... she just lied to herself and pretended that she was a man, some people were never straight (or gay, or whatever), they just tried to be.

When we start questioning ourselves, such as questioning our gender, we start questioning other things too, like our sexuality. If we were hiding from who we really are, are we also hiding from what we really like?

I questioned my sexuality first, and when I found out that I liked guys, I questioned other things. Turns out when I started asking myself the right questions, I realized I wasn't the man I was trying to be. Just like I wasn't attracted to girls like I tried to be.

kellycan27

09-26-2011, 06:59 PM

It's not a change in sexuality. Just like an MTF was never really a man... she just lied to herself and pretended that she was a man, some people were never straight (or gay, or whatever), they just tried to be.

When we start questioning ourselves, such as questioning our gender, we start questioning other things too, like our sexuality. If we were hiding from who we really are, are we also hiding from what we really like?

I questioned my sexuality first, and when I found out that I liked guys, I questioned other things. Turns out when I started asking myself the right questions, I realized I wasn't the man I was trying to be. Just like I wasn't attracted to girls like I tried to be.

Whether or not she "realized".. It was to at least her a change in her sexual preference. Prior to her transition she had never had a desire to be with men, nor had been. She was attracted to girls, and how can you "hide" what it is from .. yourself? Seems to me one would have to experience something before they could decide if they like it or not. just sayin.

Kaitlyn Michele

09-26-2011, 07:09 PM

It's not a change in sexuality. Just like an MTF was never really a man... she just lied to herself and pretended that she was a man, some people were never straight (or gay, or whatever), they just tried to be.

When we start questioning ourselves, such as questioning our gender, we start questioning other things too, like our sexuality. If we were hiding from who we really are, are we also hiding from what we really like?

I questioned my sexuality first, and when I found out that I liked guys, I questioned other things. Turns out when I started asking myself the right questions, I realized I wasn't the man I was trying to be. Just like I wasn't attracted to girls like I tried to be.

Hey I lied to myself about my gender, i might as well have lied about my sexuality...

top that with a dose of learned homophobia, and you have one scrambled egg....

i can't tell you how many dates i left at the doorstep, thinking to myself how she wasn't interested
i know many of you know what i was thinking as i "performed" the act...

but the next morning, in my mind, i was just like any other straight guy

Starling

09-26-2011, 07:13 PM

...the disproportinate number of TS girls that identify as lesbian....

...that dream is often shattered with the sad fact that there are VERY few decent men...

...virtually no straight man wants a woman with a penis...

...decent straight men want a woman. That excludes anything but a woman...

...lesbians are less likely to reject a TS girl than a straight man is. Who wants to deal with rejection?...

Kate, I have some points to raise with your premise:

A very large majority of people with male bodies are attracted to people with female bodies. The population of TS women is virtually 100% people with male bodies. Don't know much about biology, but that's a powerful predictor right there.

I used to believe that women became lesbians because they were disgusted or rejected by men. Since then, I've met some lesbians and realized that they were so because they were actually attracted to women.

The statement about no man wanting a woman with a penis is refuted by the biographies of some of the members here. Unless by "virtually no man," you really mean "most men."

"Decent straight men want a woman." In this context, what do you mean by "decent"?

Finally, I have learned that many lesbians suspect GMs who identify themselves as TS women of being sexual predators, so while the lesbian population may be less likely to reject us, they are not necessarily pushovers for a pretty FFS.

I respect your field experience with trantitioning TS folk, Kate, but it doesn't guarantee you are free from your own biases when extrapolating.

:) Lallie

Melody Moore

09-26-2011, 07:26 PM

I think the reason is HOMOPHOBIA.
How can HOMOPHOBIA even be considered as a reason to support Kate's claim Stephanie
when the figures I have just post here (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?160666-Ever-wonder-why-a-disproportinate-number-of-trans-girls-are-lesbian&p=2608258&viewfull=1#post2608258) clearly prove that lesbians are the minority in the
trans-community. The greatest majority is clearly made heterosexuals and bisexuals that
don't have any homophobia. I am not homophobic, but I am reluctant to get involved with
a man because I want to be sure it is for all the right reasons and that the person loves me
and supports me for the person I am. Homophobia plays little part in this at all for most of us.

Katesback

09-26-2011, 07:49 PM

Speaking of changing teams. I never ever had any interest in men prior to the hormones taking hold of me. At that point for reasons I cannot explain I do like men. With that said I find that I had little patience with the bullshit men put forth and so I have become happy being single. Lesbians have hit on me often and I have even dated women but my experience is that most lesbians are nuts and there is a missing part.... So I casually look for a great guy but I dont look hard.

Bree-asaurus

09-26-2011, 08:03 PM

Seems to me one would have to experience something before they could decide if they like it or not. just sayin.

You can know you like something because you are attracted to it. When you're in your teens and thinking about asking someone out on a date, you don't pick a girl and a guy so you can see which you like. You know what you like and you either hide from it or go for it. I'm not disagreeing with you entirely, but I think attraction plays a major role. I was never attracted to girls but I still went out with them and convinced myself that that was "liking" girls.

For me, I unearthed a lot about myself by challenging myself and asking myself questions. I started going out with guys because I knew I wanted to be with one, and I finally admitted that I just wasn't happy with girls. I always had crushes on guys, was always disappointed when they weren't as close of "friends" as I wanted to be. Hell, I even fooled around pretty heavy with a guy before I ever dated any girls, but still convinced myself I didn't like guys. I was very good at repressing my true feelings. The mind is a very complicated thing.

Kathryn Martin

09-26-2011, 08:19 PM

I think that there are a number of reasons why in the transgender world there are a disproportionately higher number of "lesbians". I have all of my life been attracted to both men and women. I have acted on both attractions. I have ended up finding my life companion in a woman. I am not giving up the love of my life just because I am attracted to men also.

7% is the approximate number of actual lesbians in the general population.

The higher number of lesbians in transgender world is rooted in the fact that not every transgender person is a transsexual. Gender variance as a condition is completely different from transsexualism. The fundamental premise of transsexualism is that you must change you physical sex to obtain the closest approximation to congruence with the female form and biology that is available. The person is born in a sex opposite to the one they perceive themselves in. Those people will with the exception of the 7% mentioned above and a percentage of bi-sexual persons be heterosexual to their perceived sex.

People with gender variance are a completely different matter. They travel the boundaries of the gender divide but are not transsexual. Many will present as female but do not want to change their sex. That is their prerogative but it means that they are not transsexuals. The number of gender variant people who believe they are transsexuals is astonishing because it appears to confer some classification on them that really is not theirs. Among those gender variant people there are a disproportionate higher number of persons presenting as women who are solely attracted to women. The sad part is that instead of owning what they are namely gender variant many perform incredible acts of mental twisting to arrive at a point where they are lesbians, when in fact they are gender variant heterosexuals, very often not wanting to change their anatomy to be congruent.

No manner of name calling and attempts to discredit this will change it.

This is really an interesting conversation because it illuminates an issue that has been on my mind for a long time.

Melody Moore

09-26-2011, 09:16 PM

The higher number of lesbians in transgender world is rooted in the fact that not every transgender person is a transsexual. Gender variance as a condition is completely different from transsexualism. The fundamental premise of transsexualism is that you must change you physical sex to obtain the closest approximation to congruence with the female form and biology that is available. The person is born in a sex opposite to the one they perceive themselves in. Those people will with the exception of the 7% mentioned above and a percentage of bi-sexual persons be heterosexual to their perceived sex.
Thank you Kathryn for that because that is something else that needs to be clarified, are
we talking about the whole transgender spectrum or just the transsexual variants here?

I can see that there are male to female crossdressers here for example who primarily
identify as male but engage in a transvestic fetish as a "lesbian female role", so these
should not be included if we are talking specifically about transsexual women who wish
to undergo gender transition. But the figures I posted showed heterosexual trans women
held the greatest majority and I believe these figures also relate to transsexual women.

Debglam

09-26-2011, 09:32 PM

Kaitlyn26

09-26-2011, 11:10 PM

Speaking of changing teams. I never ever had any interest in men prior to the hormones taking hold of me. At that point for reasons I cannot explain I do like men. With that said I find that I had little patience with the bullshit men put forth and so I have become happy being single. Lesbians have hit on me often and I have even dated women but my experience is that most lesbians are nuts and there is a missing part that even a toy wont take care of. So I casually look for a great guy but I dont look hard.

Sounds like you need to meet some good people. And stop bashing someone or something just because it hasn't worked out for you, yet.

pamela_a

09-27-2011, 12:10 AM

I don't know of any studies although those posted earlier are very enlightening. I can speak to my own personal experiences however.

Before I transitioned I was married twice and felt no attraction to males. After I was widowed and my transition progressed I discovered I was much more attracted to males than females. What I cannot say is if this was as a result of the HRT and transitioning or whether transitioning allowed me to accept and understand that I was always attracted to men.

I now look at my current situation. I'm post op and am just another woman. I quit being trans shortly after my name and marker was changed over a year ago. I recently met a man that I was very attracted to. I knew he was TG and after our second date we discussed his need to transition. Our third date I met her and struggled with what to do. I identified as a heterosexual female and was attracted to men, not women. How could I pursue this relationship and stay true to what I knew about myself? Thankfully I have some very insightful friends.
While talking to one of them she reminded me of what I'd told her I was looking for when I first started dating; someone who loves me at least as much as I love them. I was looking for that special person. What was outside didn't matter, only the person they were. Since then our feelings for each other have only grown stronger and I've never been happier in my life.

But to bring this back to the question, what am I? I'm in love with someone who is pre-op so, since she's still "male bodied" does that mean I'm straight? Am I lesbian because she's full time and identifies as being only female? Maybe that makes me Bi because I love both? Does it really matter at all? Personally I don't care if I'm straight, lesbian, or bi. The only thing that matters to me is how much I love this wonderful person who has brought so much love and happiness into my life, and how much she loves me.

Aprilrain

09-27-2011, 08:33 AM

Here is some thing to think about too. Most of the pre op women I know lose their BF after SRS go figure that one out .

most of the guys i've talked to lose their TS GF once she has the surgery, a few of which were paid for by the BF. LOL. They all said the same thing she left them for a younger model! Guess the new equipment required more stamina ; )

Amber99

09-28-2011, 04:04 PM

Well for me personally I have always liked women and I just don't find anything attractive about men at all. I don't see that changing at all as I transition. I'm 6 months on hormones and it hasn't changed that fact so far lol.

I think much more MtF's are lesbian than non-trans women because of the influence of their male biology during puberty.

Avana

09-28-2011, 05:00 PM

Add to the mix that fact that a lot of TS women do not escape trannyland so they remain a tranny regardless of having had SRS or not. Once again decent straight men want a woman. That excludes anything but a woman.

Finally lets face it, lesbians are less likely to reject a TS girl than a straight man is. Who wants to deal with rejection?

First of all, every TS woman is a 'tranny' regardless of whether they have this fiction of 'escaping trannyland' or not.

Secondly, what makes you think that lesbians want a girl with girl parts any less than men? In fact, I don't think you can call a relationship with a transwoman and a natal woman a lesbian relationship at all. Queer, certainly, but not lesbian.

And finally, what makes you think lesbians are less likely to reject a TS girl than a straight man? What's this based on?

In any case, obviously the fact that male to female transsexuals are more likely to be socialized as men than natal women in a hetero-sexist society would probably have a lot to do with sexual preferences and habits...

Aprilrain

09-28-2011, 05:39 PM

In any case, obviously the fact that male to female transsexuals are more likely to be socialized as men than natal women in a hetero-sexist society would probably have a lot to do with sexual preferences and habits...

While it is undoubtedly true that this sort of social engineering goes on (rather blatantly in fact) not even this kind of pressure can "change" some ones innate sexual orientation. I do think a lot more people are a lot more fluid than they think or want to believe but a transsexual upturns and disrupts her life so drastically that she has the unique opportunity to reexamine all the assumptions and personal "rules and regulations" her male life may have held so dear making it possible for her to seemingly "switch teams". I do think hormones are powerful enough to exert some kind of force but only if that person is innately wired to want to be with a man to begin with either as a heterosexual woman or a Bisexual woman.

ReineD

09-28-2011, 06:50 PM

Looking at the list of studies that Melody found in post #28, I looked up the Anne Lawrence study since it is by far the largest (232 MtF) and the most recent (2005).

http://www.springerlink.com/content/u25657804104w6v7/

The results are as follows: Prior to SRS 54% of participants had been predominately attracted to women, while 9% were attracted to men. After SRS, half the the female-attracted participants became attracted to men, resulting in 25% still attracted to women and 34% attracted to men. The 41% balance I assume are bi, with perhaps a small number of asexuals.

So, Kate I believe your information is inaccurate. If the Lawrence study is representational, there are more TSs who are attracted to men post SRS than are attracted to women.

TSroadmap comes up with several reasons why there is a switch, but I don't know if there are studies to support this. See the link that Melody posted in #28 for the article. This is a summary:

1. Post SRS hetero women are former homosexual men.
2. Hormonal changes causes a change in sexual orientation.
3. The average post SRS transwoman is more female than the average GG, therefore she will want relationships with men as well.
4. The Stepford Wives ideal is actively pursued by transwomen.
5. A heterosexual orientation is closely related to the TS's ability to pass and assimilate herself as a woman.
6. The younger transwomen at SRS are more likely to be heterosexual.

Again, I don't know whether the above reasons are based on research or if they are someone's opinion.

But, to answer your question as to why so many TSs remain lesbian (or bi and still attracted to women), I have what may be an overly simplistic explanation, or rather I submit it as a question since I do not know the answer.

Generally speaking, why is it that the majority of cismen are attracted to ciswomen and vice versa? Common sense dictates that we are designed this way to propagate the species: natural selection. Is sexual attraction biological or conditioned? Probably both although I'm sure there are strong arguments in favor of one or the other.

Although transwomen are female, they do have male biological roots and also male conditioning to varying degrees. So it makes sense to me that some transwomen would still be attracted to women after transition. Many things change for a transwoman biologically after HRT, but not everything. Blood type is the same. Eye color is the same. Is there a biological component to sexual attraction that remains strong in some people? It's worth consideration. Another explanation from TSroadmap is that post SRS transwomen will continue relationships with former wives or female partners.

Pythos

09-28-2011, 07:42 PM

You know, I find the op to be anoyingly true. Look at my reaction when I realized I had attracted the attention of what may have been a TS. I was all concerned of what OTHERs would think.

Now, I was able to wrestle with and defeat these feelings. I am now fully in love with this person (who is turning out to be GG to the best of my knowledge). I was able to see beyond her masculine build. Her personality shines like the moon in the midnight sky. She is a wonderful goof ball too.

Avana

09-28-2011, 07:47 PM

While it is undoubtedly true that this sort of social engineering goes on (rather blatantly in fact) not even this kind of pressure can "change" some ones innate sexual orientation. I do think a lot more people are a lot more fluid than they think or want to believe but a transsexual upturns and disrupts her life so drastically that she has the unique opportunity to reexamine all the assumptions and personal "rules and regulations" her male life may have held so dear making it possible for her to seemingly "switch teams". I do think hormones are powerful enough to exert some kind of force but only if that person is innately wired to want to be with a man to begin with either as a heterosexual woman or a Bisexual woman.

Yeah but are we talking about innate sexual orientation? Not everyone finds their innate sexual orientation right away, identifies with it, or acts on it.

Aprilrain

09-28-2011, 08:57 PM

Yeah but are we talking about innate sexual orientation? Not everyone finds their innate sexual orientation right away, identifies with it, or acts on it.

No very true, I didn't, at least not half of it anyway ; )

Amber99

09-28-2011, 10:03 PM

While it is undoubtedly true that this sort of social engineering goes on (rather blatantly in fact) not even this kind of pressure can "change" some ones innate sexual orientation. I do think a lot more people are a lot more fluid than they think or want to believe but a transsexual upturns and disrupts her life so drastically that she has the unique opportunity to reexamine all the assumptions and personal "rules and regulations" her male life may have held so dear making it possible for her to seemingly "switch teams". I do think hormones are powerful enough to exert some kind of force but only if that person is innately wired to want to be with a man to begin with either as a heterosexual woman or a Bisexual woman.
Yeah this makes a lot of sense to me. I don't get the whole "Well, men are jerks so I decided to go with women." I can't force myself to like men regardless of how convenient it would be.

Kayla

09-28-2011, 10:18 PM

I think its simple MTFs are like most people out there straight. Why would you change your orientation just because you switched teams?

Badtranny

09-28-2011, 11:45 PM

Yeah this makes a lot of sense to me. I don't get the whole "Well, men are jerks so I decided to go with women." I can't force myself to like men regardless of how convenient it would be.

Well, I forced myself to like women for my entire life up to a few years ago.

I wanted men, but I just refused to acknowledge it. I basically put my fingers in my ears and did "la la la la".

Since I've "come out" as myself, I've experienced a freedom I could never imagine. Staying away from men wasn't nearly as hard as pretending to be sexually attracted to women.

Denial is frighteningly powerful.

Melody Moore

09-28-2011, 11:50 PM

Even though I primarily identify as a lesbian and I have been sexually abused by males, grew up with and seen the
worst side of males and won't ever be played for a fool by a male, especially when it comes to love & romance I
cannot deny that there has always been that ever present desire to be loved properly as a woman by the right man.

My only issue is that I haven't met Mr Right yet, but when I do, I am sure that things will be radically different for me.

Bree-asaurus

09-29-2011, 12:03 AM

CharleneT

09-29-2011, 01:05 AM

I think its simple MTFs are like most people out there straight. Why would you change your orientation just because you switched teams?

AH, but remember, when you switch gender - if your orientation stays the same, then you will switch whom you are attracted to ;) An example: a strait MTF transitions, now she is a strait woman, okay, that would mean she is now attracted to men. Clear as mud ??

Aprilrain

09-29-2011, 09:23 AM

Well, I forced myself to like women for my entire life up to a few years ago.

I wanted men, but I just refused to acknowledge it. I basically put my fingers in my ears and did "la la la la".

Since I've "come out" as myself, I've experienced a freedom I could never imagine. Staying away from men wasn't nearly as hard as pretending to be sexually attracted to women.

Denial is frighteningly powerful.

This is how I was as well though I do think I have a genuine attraction to females I think its more sexual than anything. Right now I have no desire to be in a relationship with a woman but Id fool around with one. I think being attracted to woman made it possible to fool myself into believing that I was a heterosexual man. Eventually the sex became tedious in all my relationships with woman because I was expected to be the "man" not because I don't like sex with girls, I was jealous. But meanwhile my thought life was always me, a woman, with a man and rarely did I ever fantasize about having sex with woman. If I thought a girl was hot and started fantasizing about her inevitable I would just become her and be with a man LOL. It's amazing the things you can do in your head! The day I said "Screw it" regarding my gender issues was the same day I said "I guess I want to have sex with guys too" it wasn't an epiphany it was a cessation of a life time of lying to myself, that was months before I started HRT. At that point I could imagine having sex with a man but really wasn't sure about being involved romantically. If Hormones changed anything in me that is what it changed, my desire to be romantic with a man. It just feels right now whereas before it seemed like it would be awkward. As it turns out I have only been with woman as a man and with a man as a woman so I am truly heterosexual and the rest of you are all freaks : P

KarenCDFL

09-29-2011, 09:29 AM

Could it possibly be that "all" the decent men want to be women?

Starling

09-29-2011, 01:17 PM

You may be right, Karen. You know the saying: "Sometimes the best man for the job is a woman."

Melody Moore

09-29-2011, 01:30 PM

There is one thing I have heard about trans-women from their male partners where we do
have it over natal females and that is apparently we do know how to really please a guy.

So the best woman for the job, might turn out to really be a man ;)

ReineD

09-29-2011, 01:39 PM

There is one thing I have heard about trans-women from their male partners where we do
have it over natal females and that is apparently we do know how to really please a guy.

I don't doubt it! ;)

So maybe lesbians prefer natal women for the same reasons? :D

Sally24

09-29-2011, 02:18 PM

First let's deal with the "disproportionate" part. Compared to what? Women in general? Your dealing with a very small subset of the general population so there's likely to be lots of things we aren't average in.

From my reading I would say that part of it is timing. It seems that the majority of early transitioners (12-16 years old) end up being heterosexuals, ie interested in men. I'm sure the lack of a male puberty and the use of estrogen in the formative years have much to do with it. They are usually able to be socialized as young women and have a "normal" dating life in school.

Contrast that with those of us who have lived 30-40 years as a male. I think the lowest percent might be 30% with some quoting 50% being lesbian identified. It's hard to fight testosterone and years of socialization and imprinted. I do agree that a.little fear probably enters into the equation too.

Starling

09-29-2011, 10:50 PM

...apparently we do know how to really please a guy...

By turning into a pizza?

:heehee: Lallie

Melody Moore

09-29-2011, 11:21 PM

By turning into a pizza?

:heehee: Lallie

Yes, now do you want Anchovies on that as well? :heehee:

Sharon

09-30-2011, 12:07 AM

Yes, now do you want Anchovies on that as well? :heehee:

Boy do I have a profoundly inappropriate joke as a response to that line. :shutup: :o :heehee:

ReineD

09-30-2011, 12:12 AM

^ You can PM it to me. :heehee:

Melody Moore

09-30-2011, 12:45 AM

Boy do I have a profoundly inappropriate joke as a response to that line. :shutup: :o :heehee:

So do I, but I guess I will just have to shut up too :shutup: :o :heehee:

danielle.cd

09-30-2011, 12:17 PM

Frances

09-30-2011, 12:28 PM

could possibly be the little y in the xy genome that causes this even with hormones and srs, dna is still dna . xx full women xy partial women part man so even if u trick the body into thinking its xx its still xy , correct me if im wrong about that.

AIS women are xy and seem to be female gender identified and attracted to men for the most part. At least the few that have been public about their condition. I blame homophobia and intense conditioning of male-bodied young persons myself. But then again, show me the stats!

Starling

09-30-2011, 02:19 PM

But it's so hard to collect, and to be able to trust, those stats.

:) Lallie

Aprilrain

09-30-2011, 04:21 PM

could possibly be the little y in the xy genome that causes this even with hormones and srs, dna is still dna . xx full women xy partial women part man so even if u trick the body into thinking its xx its still xy , correct me if im wrong about that.

This assumes that xy chromosomes = male =likes females. what about gay people who have no gender identity issues what so ever and have assumably standard genes as well?

Sharon

09-30-2011, 10:40 PM

My feeling is that your gender preference of sexual partners is yours alone and it matters not what anyone else thinks. It doesn't even matter why your preference is what it is. Straight, gay, neither, or both, there should be no reprisals or explanations necessary. Of course, in the world we live in sexual orientation seems to matter to all too many people, but it's not only intrusive it is nobody's dang business.

That said, I find it easily explainable as to why (male-to-) female transsexuals are more prevalently attracted to other females than is the general non-TS public. Most of us spent our formative years fighting the transsexuality within us; as a result we may have consciously or unconsciously chosen to be attracted to females because that was what was expected of men, most especially those who grew up in previous generations than those coming of age today. I know that I refused to look at men as potential mates or partners for most of my life, even after I began telling people about myself about six years ago. I did this even as I would catch myself looking at some men "that way" over the years. I finally decided that I was no longer capable of fooling myself about my preferences. But even now, I don't limit my opportunities to men alone.

Hope

10-05-2011, 02:43 AM

OMG.. seriously Kate?

Your suggestion is that girls decide to be lesbians because dating men is too hard? Seriously? This is your thesis?

Ok, I am going to say this slowly. Sexual. Preference. Is. Not. A. Choice.

Get it?

Aprilrain

10-05-2011, 10:22 AM

OMG.. seriously Kate?

Your suggestion is that girls decide to be lesbians because dating men is too hard? Seriously? This is your thesis?

Dating men is easy! but maybe not if you're a B@#$%!

WyomingDiva

10-05-2011, 04:59 PM

Finally lets face it, lesbians are less likely to reject a TS girl than a straight man is.How do you figure this?

SabrinaEmily

10-05-2011, 05:45 PM

When I first heard about the existence of transsexuality I assumed that quite a lot of transwomen would be lesbian, because most males are attracted to women and I didn't see why that should change.

Yes, there are flaws with that line of reasoning, but at least I didn't assume that all transwomen would be androphilic like most people seem to.

Even more transwomen identify as bisexual than lesbian, and around 7% identify as asexual. (See the survey at http://www.thetaskforce.org/reports_and_research/ntds ) These are also out of proportion to the general population. Any hypothesis to answer this question must accomodate those facts as well.

And do you also suppose that cis lesbians just need to "learn to be with a man" in order to no longer be lesbian? If not, why do you make that claim for trans lesbians?

Proteus

10-05-2011, 05:54 PM

Throw in the fact that virtually no straight man wants a woman with a penis and a lot dont want a woman that had a penis and you can start to see why many TS are lesbian.

I read somewhere else that there are more straight men into "chicks with dicks" than there are transwomen to go around, but I'm entertaining the possibility that either, or both statistics are hokum.

Melody Moore

10-05-2011, 06:10 PM

Yes, Kate's theory is seriously flawed - picking up a guy would be too darn easy for me. And the
only reason I haven't done it myself yet is because I am not interested at this point in my transition.

Badtranny

10-05-2011, 07:57 PM

I read somewhere else that there are more straight men into "chicks with dicks" than there are transwomen to go around, but I'm entertaining the possibility that either, or both statistics are hokum.

I totally believe this. There are a lot of guys who would date a pre-op as long as she was 100% passable. There are also plenty that date pre-ops that are almost passable like me ;-)

Melody Moore

10-05-2011, 08:04 PM

Exactly Melissa, I have actually had guys tell me that they have no
issue being with a pre-op girl just so long as you look like a woman.

Even new friends I meet don't know I am in transition unless I tell them,
so this crap that Katesback goes on with holds absolutely no water at all.

I like being with women because I connect better on an emotional level with them.

ReineD

10-05-2011, 08:47 PM

Exactly Melissa, I have actually had guys tell me that they have no
issue being with a pre-op girl just so long as you look like a woman.

But, isn't this the issue? The majority of men are OK with pre-op and not post-op? I don't know one way or the other, just repeating stuff I've read here over the years.

NathalieX66

10-05-2011, 08:59 PM

Interesting question......definitely deserves deep discussion. Let's not get hostile, though. It really is a worthy discussion for us all.
From my perspective, I cannot tell you how many TG girls like yourselves I've met, including being at conferences like Southern Comfort and Keystone, who are on HRT, and are going through/ or have gone through various stages of surgeries, and are also married, kids, etc.

If you want to debate the ratio of hetero vs. bi.vs. gay TS, that's fine. Maybe someday, researchers and doctors will find that magic number. The reality is TS that are attracted to either or both sexes, gender and sexual preference are two different topics, which Kellycan27 pointed out.

Could it be that transsexual sexuality is a form of sexuality itself? I keep hearing this word pansexual.

As for me, I'm attracted to all things fem, I'm attracted to women but I often think about crossing that river into femalehood all the time, even thought the path of transition is not for me. I'm happy to be on the road of laser & electro hair removal, though my wallet's not happy. I'm definitely lez in my own mind, and often feel that my guy sexuality is getting in the way, and sometimes wish it weren't there. But unless I do HRT and change the plumbing, the guy aspect of me is always there.

Melody Moore

10-05-2011, 09:04 PM

Hi Reine,

I don't think anyone can draw any conclusions about what men really do favour, however
there is definitely a lot more interest in pre-op trans-women thanks to 'she-male' porn. :angry:

My main concern about that is whether or not guys just see you as a fantasy they want to fulfil
or as someone who they can make a commitment to and want to have permanently in their lives.

I had a male house-mate awhile back who had the hots for me really bad, he knew I was pre-op and was telling
me not to have surgery. But he had this unrealistic fantasy where he wanted to have a trans-girlfriend but also
wanted to keep seeing other men as well - no f**king way, especially when I asked him if he always had safe sex.
His reply was 'Sometimes" - so who the hell wants to get mixed up with some stupid admirer or tranny chaser that
is going to put your live in danger with the threat of HIV & STIs we face in the world today?

kellycan27

10-05-2011, 09:21 PM

I have visited a number of TS social ( chat ) sites and I can tell you that a lot of the guys who visit with the express intent of meeting a TS seem to have more issues than the girls do. and there were plenty who were looking for "she males". This little song is a pretty good descriptive. video gamers, super hero's, cartoons, no or menial jobs....

http://youtu.be/7DGxXhVVxtM

Melody Moore

10-05-2011, 09:27 PM

kellycan27

10-05-2011, 09:45 PM

Hi Kelly,

I also found the same trend when I had it written up on my profile that I was TS on a social networking/dating site.

The interesting thing was all the guys who contacted me had listed their sexual orientations as "Straight". However
about 80% of them had no issues admitting to me they were either bisexual or bi-curious & had no issues about being
with someone like me. It was a very interesting and eye-opening exercise because many revealed they had repressed
gender issues and fantasies. Eventually I got sick of it and removed the info about my gender status from my profile.

I think it may in fact be a trend. Whenever a new guy would join, he automatically became suspect. Why a TS instead of a GG? Are you looking for a girl with that "something" extra? Like it was almost expected. I think we would be way more likely to meet a quality guy out in the mainstream than on these TS social or dating sites. i think that "why do you want to meet a TS"? is an excellent question.

Melody Moore

10-05-2011, 09:50 PM

Kelly, I can understand this happening on a TS Dating site, but I was on a regular social networking/dating
site which is what really surprised me most of all, because there there is a lot more natal women than trans
women they could choose from. So this is why it did shock me that so many straight guys are very interested
in pre-op trans women obviously because they wanted the best of both worlds in the one lover obviously. :heehee:

ReineD

10-05-2011, 11:13 PM

Whenever a new guy would join, he automatically became suspect. Why a TS instead of a GG? Are you looking for a girl with that "something" extra? Like it was almost expected.

Kelly, I can understand this happening on a TS Dating site, but I was on a regular social networking/dating site which is what really surprised me most of all, because there there is a lot more natal women than trans women they could choose from. So this is why it did shock me that so many straight guys are very interested
in pre-op trans women obviously because they wanted the best of both worlds in the one lover obviously.

These guys aren't straight. They do want pre-ops or CDs for that something extra. And what's so sad about this, are the CDs who fool themselves into believing these admirers are treating them like women.

I've learned a lot from Alice (Richard) Novik, author of "Alice in Genderland". She's a psychiatrist, unapologetically trans (both genders ... for now. She does not discount future changes), and in an open marriage with a GG. She is also unapologetic about the sexual aspect of being trans.

This is what she has to say about admirers: http://aliceingenderland.com/Manhunt.html

Alice knows that many TSs criticize her though, because she does agree with the concept of autogynephilia (which she says is heterosexuality turned inward), although she does speaks of AGP more in terms of how it affects CDs than TSs. Her entire site is well worth reading: http://aliceingenderland.com. She has recently come out with a revision of her book.

Jorja

10-05-2011, 11:45 PM

First, let me state clearly that I fall into the Bi category. I think this is because I am greedy and just like both :). I have read all the statics and theories of who likes what more pre-op or post-op. I can only speak for myself. As post-op I have never had a problem getting guys or women. I am to the point I can hardly remember ever being pre-op. As I recall, I never had any problem finding guys or girls. It's not so much the equipment but how you use it that matters ;). More importantly it is your personality and how you talk to and treat people. Keep in mind, I have never been on an online dating site. I haven't needed to. I have had all I can handle just by walking and talking to people.

docrobbysherry

10-05-2011, 11:57 PM

You're absolutely correct in my experience, Reine. Mature males just AREN'T "bi curious" if they're straight! As a late dresser who went thru a prolonged, "If I like wearing dresses, I must be gay", stage, I finally realized I'm not. Because there's never been ANYTHING about males that I find attractive. Other than my early fantasies of a man treating me like a woman!

It's a lot like dressing. Many have been fascinated with fem and dressing thots from an early age. However, as an apparently vanilla straight male well into my 50's, the thot of trying on ladies things before then never entered my mind! In my experience, mature males, never mind what kind of clothing they r wearing, r not entirely straight if they want to fool around with a penis!

Andrea85

10-06-2011, 03:28 AM

Guess I'm a lucky one that found a guy that is ok with me being pre-op, but would rather me be post-op. But he is one of the rare ones that sees people for who they are, not what they are.

Kaitlyn Michele

10-06-2011, 08:17 AM

These guys aren't straight. They do want pre-ops or CDs for that something extra. And what's so sad about this, are the CDs who fool themselves into believing these admirers are treating them like women.

I've learned a lot from Alice (Richard) Novik, author of "Alice in Genderland". She's a psychiatrist, unapologetically trans (both genders ... for now. She does not discount future changes), and in an open marriage with a GG. She is also unapologetic about the sexual aspect of being trans.

This is what she has to say about admirers: http://aliceingenderland.com/Manhunt.html

Alice knows that many TSs criticize her though, because she does agree with the concept of autogynephilia (which she says is heterosexuality turned inward), although she does speaks of AGP more in terms of how it affects CDs than TSs. Her entire site is well worth reading: http://aliceingenderland.com. She has recently come out with a revision of her book.

very true... i have seen it twice now.. the guy supports the pre op girls transition, and as soon as srs happens, its the beginning of the end.. it highlights the depth and strength of our internal gender identities and sexuality... i can only speculate why the guys left, but the obvious reason is they realized that their "girl", really was a WOMAN and that's not what they really wanted.. it happens to wives and girlfriends of ts women as well who want to support the transition, only to find they can't...

not every time, but the majority of the time...

Badtranny

10-06-2011, 09:11 AM

Well, I think it's pretty simple really. The men who prefer TS's have homosexual tendencies but they just can't come to grips with it. They think they're straight because they don't like masculine men, in fact they like us to be as feminine as possible except for that one little thing. Some of them are very creepy largely because of the closeted nature of their sexuality, but many of them seem very well adjusted.

Oh, one more thing, the majority of men who are interested enough to chat with me online, lose interest rather quickly when they find out that I have no interest in topping them.

Frances

10-06-2011, 09:19 AM

Oh, one more thing, the majority of men who are interested enough to chat with me online, lose interest rather quickly when they find out that I have no interest in topping them.

Happened to me everytime when I was pre-op and looked for a boyfriend on the Internet while advertising myself as trans. I found it supprising at first, but then realised it was quite ubiquitous.

ReineD

10-06-2011, 09:27 AM

Oh, one more thing, the majority of men who are interested enough to chat with me online, lose interest rather quickly when they find out that I have no interest in topping them.

The other thing Alice Novic suggests is that admirers are living vicariously through the TGs in their lives because they are frustrated TGs themselves, in denial. Alice believes it is only a matter of time before the boyfriend wants to be as pretty as his partner. Generally speaking.

Melody Moore

10-06-2011, 09:56 AM

The other thing Alice Novic suggests is that admirers are living vicariously through the TGs in their lives because they are frustrated TGs themselves, in denial. Alice believes it is only a matter of time before the boyfriend wants to be as pretty as his partner. Generally speaking.
I came across a few guys on the site I mentioned that wanted someone to teach them how to dress up
and be all girly. But I have met a few crossdressers who are thinking about gender transition & I introduced
one of those people to this forum & who is a member now to learn more about being transgendered and to
explore where they might fit in to the gender spectrum.

Kaitlyn Michele

10-06-2011, 10:19 AM

one time at a trans event, a guy hit on me multiple times...about the 4th time we talked, he pulled out a bunch of pictures of himself all made up at a transformation salon...

he claimed he did it "for a lark", and that he was not gay and not a crossdresser..."OMG no!!" he said when i told him he was....

in the end, its important i think to realize that it may be simply another manifestation of the same thing crossdressers experience...they are just coping in their own way..they can't bring themselves to dress or admit they want..
crossdressing is inherently sexual, and they deserve the same amount of courtesy and respect that any crossdresser deserves..some people don't like that idea but i don't see how you can get around it..it touches on the whole idea of "my kind of crossdressing is ok, but yours is not" and the idea that crossdressing is highly sexual..both third rails...

ReineD

10-06-2011, 10:34 AM

..they can't bring themselves to dress or admit they want.. crossdressing is inherently sexual, and they deserve the same amount of courtesy and respect that any crossdresser deserves..

You're right. I'm guilty of having been hard on one of our admirer members. I did treat him with respect, but I couldn't sit by quietly and read his assertions that ALL CDs want men, since this just isn't true. It is because of this member that I tend to have a poor opinion of admirers in general and I need to be more objective about this. :p

Badtranny

10-06-2011, 10:39 AM

Jumping off of Kaitlyn's brilliant observations, it occurs to me that her guy who dressed on a "lark" may have been fishing for that Dom who will force him to subordinate and be her sissy. The forced fem fantasy is so ubiquitous that most of the TG sites feature it prominently.

The rainbow of human sexuality has every color and every shade and I suspect that's just the beginning. I can't help but think that we would all be so much healthier if we could just embrace the truth of who we are.

Melody Moore

10-06-2011, 12:41 PM

The rainbow of human sexuality has every color and every shade and I suspect that's just the beginning. I
can't help but think that we would all be so much healthier if we could just embrace the truth of who we are.
Neither can I Melissa, after all there are many people on this forum that wander the great divide of
gender & sexual diversity to find out what makes them happy in life. Even if I encounter something
I find a bit bizarre that old adage "Whatever tickles your fancy" keeps popping up in my head :heehee:

kellycan27

10-06-2011, 01:22 PM

Whatever tickles your fancy works for me. I don't care what someone's sexual preference is, and I respect people's choices. I like boys and girls. Even though I do like both, a man in a dress doesn't tickle my fancy, nor does a pre-op TS. I suppose that it's not the plumbing, but the way in which it is presented that does it for me sexually? I want my men to be men and my women to women. That's my little head trip.. YMMV :heehee:

Kel

Katesback

10-06-2011, 02:20 PM

But Kelly your gender identity is in ones head. You can be a girl and still have a penis. Surely your being whats the word.......discrimatory against the pre-op women for not considering them full fledged women. Never mind what thier birth certificate says. LOL

Whatever tickles your fancy works for me. I don't care what someone's sexual preference is, and I respect people's choices. I like boys and girls. Even though I do like both, a man in a dress doesn't tickle my fancy, nor does a pre-op TS. I suppose that it's not the plumbing, but the way in which it is presented that does it for me sexually? I want my men to be men and my women to women. That's my little head trip.. YMMV :heehee:

Kel

kellycan27

10-06-2011, 02:37 PM

Frances

10-06-2011, 02:46 PM

Badtranny

10-06-2011, 11:12 PM

Well played!adfadfasdfasdfasdfasdfsef

Yes, it was only a matter of time before "The Voice of Experience" checked in with more bigoted bile. I'm curious about how many of the esteemed Post-Ops considered themselves to be women before the final cut? Obviously Kate didn't as long as her birth certificate said otherwise, but I'm wondering about some of the others. Surely Kate isn't the ONLY person who has ever had a sex change.

The only thing worse than a bigot, is a bigot that hates their own kind.

Kaitlyn Michele

10-07-2011, 05:59 AM

To be brutally honest, for me ...the shame i felt (and sometimes still feel) about my transsexuality has been a major roadblock for me..

whether this impacts my thoughts or not, i don't know..

what i found pre - op to post - op was that my own internal sense of self became liberated... the shame became just a whisper, more about catholic guilt maybe... when i say liberated, i'm saying that i felt normal, when before i didn't.

it's interesting because prior to FFS, i was OBSESSED with surgery, i needed it, i wanted it...i had to have it!! it had to work!!!! the desperation of dysphoria and transition were overwhelming... the ffs helped me so much to pass/blend that this all went away..
i scheduled srs for a year later, i felt many self doubts about it... i wondered alot about the risk reward, and whether it was neccessary...i felt pretty good about myself and was functioning well in my new role.. but i still had my identity on my mind...
and i went through with it...

and what i found was something very surprising ..which was that it all just went away... as i sit today, i feel like changing gender is almost incomprehensible... that's the best way to describe it.. how can anyone do that??
it felt very different than before, in a surprising and wonderful way.. it is hard for me to imagine myself any differently than i am right now, and i spent my ENTIRE LIFE beforehand imagining what it was like to be different than i was...

btw...some time back, kate posted many times about how ffs was the most important thing..in the same very aggressive way...its interesting because although she expresses it differently , she has changed her tune quite alot..

Katesback

10-07-2011, 06:51 AM

I believe I said that FFS is the best bang for the buck for most trans girls. As far as getting SRS. In the past I have said that if someone claims to be TS they damm well better want to have srs or they are not TS.

To be brutally honest, for me ...the shame i felt (and sometimes still feel) about my transsexuality has been a major roadblock for me..

whether this impacts my thoughts or not, i don't know..

what i found pre - op to post - op was that my own internal sense of self became liberated... the shame became just a whisper, more about catholic guilt maybe... when i say liberated, i'm saying that i felt normal, when before i didn't.

it's interesting because prior to FFS, i was OBSESSED with surgery, i needed it, i wanted it...i had to have it!! it had to work!!!! the desperation of dysphoria and transition were overwhelming... the ffs helped me so much to pass/blend that this all went away..
i scheduled srs for a year later, i felt many self doubts about it... i wondered alot about the risk reward, and whether it was neccessary...i felt pretty good about myself and was functioning well in my new role.. but i still had my identity on my mind...
and i went through with it...

and what i found was something very surprising ..which was that it all just went away... as i sit today, i feel like changing gender is almost incomprehensible... that's the best way to describe it.. how can anyone do that??
it felt very different than before, in a surprising and wonderful way.. it is hard for me to imagine myself any differently than i am right now, and i spent my ENTIRE LIFE beforehand imagining what it was like to be different than i was...

btw...some time back, kate posted many times about how ffs was the most important thing..in the same very aggressive way...its interesting because although she expresses it differently , she has changed her tune quite alot..

Kaitlyn Michele

10-07-2011, 07:10 AM

true that 's what you said...but Kate, that goes totally goes against your idea that if you don't get srs you are just a girl with a penis...
that implies the NECESSARY condition is srs...so you can't really say both things..a gorgeous model's face on a woman with a penis is not getting the best bang for her buck ..

with credibility comes responsibility for your own logic...perhaps you would take back that statement..my ideas have certainly evolved over time and i happily admit it..that's what transition does...

Starling

10-07-2011, 01:27 PM

I think it's safe to say most MtFs yearn for, dream of, are obsessed with the idea of, femaleness their whole life. Perhaps there is no way to tell whether the attraction to women is "lesbian" or truly Platonic, in the strict sense of the term; for gay GMs, it would almost certainly be Platonic, sems to me.

If I'm right, in addition to the heterosexual bias, there would be an MtF bias in favor of women as loving partners. I understand, however, that once a transsexual woman has had HRT and SRS, her figurative eggs may get scrambled.

Sorry, I haven't added much--but at least my new avatar is Alla Nazimova, early Hollywood star, patroness of the famed Garden of Alla (or Allah) just off the Sunset Strip, and lesbian.

:) Lallie

Joann Smith

10-08-2011, 02:48 PM

My guess it that most men stink..as in funkey..they smell like dirty oil and tacos ..and thats why alot of trans women would much rather spend time with another woman...

Joann

Starling

10-08-2011, 03:20 PM

I'm attracted to tacos, but not to men. I've spent too much time with them already. Some of my best friends are men, but it's hard work to keep up the front.

:) Lallie

Kathryn Martin

10-08-2011, 08:43 PM

Melody Moore

10-08-2011, 10:14 PM

I don't think that either SRS or FFS defines you as a woman, and what
is best for someone really comes down to a matter or personal choice.
Anyway I cannot wait to see this show down Kathryn - so bring it on :Punch:

Katesback

10-08-2011, 11:14 PM

Is it fair to say then that if you are walking down the street and a man walks up to you and says he is a woman. Do you take him to be a her? I mean sure what makes you what you are is in your head but at some point actions speak louder than words (especially in the real world). Hence I fall back to the fact that you can say all you want but till you are willing and prepared to take the steps to be who you claim to be.......... ya get the point hopefully.

And hey we were supposed to be talking about why so many ts girls are lesbian.

I don't think that either SRS or FFS defines you as a woman, and what
is best for someone really comes down to a matter or personal choice.
Anyway I cannot wait to see this show down Kathryn - so bring it on :Punch:

Julia_in_Pa

10-09-2011, 01:35 PM

Starling

10-09-2011, 09:40 PM

Julia, it looks like you and Kate have something in common!

:) Lallie

Melody Moore

10-09-2011, 10:11 PM

And hey we were supposed to be talking about why so many ts girls are lesbian.

That is right, so why do YOU keep bringing this other crap up Kate?

I believe I said that FFS is the best bang for the buck for most trans girls. As far as getting SRS. In the past I have said that if someone claims to be TS they damm well better want to have srs or they are not TS.

Amber99

10-09-2011, 10:39 PM

I've had three relationships with men and countless dates with others.

My conclusion is that the overwhelming amount of men that I have met in my five years of full time living are filthy pigs.

Garish, emotionally unavailable slobs who wish nothing more than sex.

Most men turn my stomach.

The sex was fine but when it came to a long term loving relationship no one was home.

This is why I am in a relationship with a lesbian GG.

Just my two cents kids.

Julia
Wait I'm not sure I understand this. Are you actually attracted to women or do you simply have relationships with them despite having no attraction because men are pigs, ect? This kinda thing only really makes sense to me if you are bisexual I guess? To me being a lesbian has nothing to do with what I actually do, but what I'm attracted to (which is 100% women.) I could theoretically have sex with a man out of convenience (probably could not actually go through with it blech) but it wouldn't make me hetero. It would have made me a lesbian who slept with a man for some other reason.

Julia_in_Pa

10-10-2011, 08:42 AM

Hi!!

I've tasted enough men to know what I don't like and to find out what most men are like.

Yes I consider myself bisexual but lean much more towards women.

I'm intersexed and raised as a male. I've always been attracted to men but since experiencing the reality of most mens emotionally unavailable mindset I have based my own personal conclusion that most men that I have seen,dealt with, worked with and slept with are pigs.
Sex with them is just fine just don't expect anything beyond sex and you'll be just fine.
Use them and toss them aside.
Jaded? Yes. Disillusioned? Yes. Am I a realist? Yes that's why I'm in a relationship with a woman based on mutual love, respect and dignity.
Are there good men out there? I'm sure there are but I'm not self abasing enough to attempt to beat those astronomical odds.
Your mileage with men may vary but I sincerely doubt it.

If that doesn't clarify then I don't know what would. :O)

Julia

Wait I'm n ot sure I understand this. Are you actually attracted to women or do you simply have relationships with them despite having no attraction because men are pigs, ect? This kinda thing only really makes sense to me if you are bisexual I guess? To me being a lesbian has nothing to do with what I actually do, but what I'm attracted to (which is 100% women.) I could theoretically have sex with a man out of convenience (probably could not actually go through with it blech) but it wouldn't make me hetero. It would have made me a lesbian who slept with a man for some other reason.

Melody Moore

10-10-2011, 09:11 AM

Wow Julie we do have a lot in common really. I too was born intersex and raised as a male.

If I am to be really honest I to also admit I have always had an attraction for men, but there was a couple
of things that stood in my way with that. First of all because I had the body of a male it just never felt right
to even think about anything with a male. I had one experience with a male in my early 20s I did really enjoy
because I didn't think of myself as a male in that situation - it was the first time I really accepted myself as
being a female sexuality.

The issue that held me back the most was trust I was sexually abused my a male cousin, violently abused by
my own father & also raped as a teenager. Also having grown up as a male means I am even more aware of
what guys are really like. So it has been really hard for me to develop trust in men. I am yet to find a guy that
really understands the meaning of love and commitment and thinks about a lot more than just his tiny penis.
And I am not attracted to guys who are dirty and smelly and unkempt in their appearance or carrying any sort
of emotional baggage or chip on their shoulder about women from past relationships. So that makes hard to find
a good man nowadays.

Aprilrain

10-10-2011, 10:02 AM

So that makes hard to finda good man nowadays.

I found one first try! I chatted with a lot of losers online but this one guy who I was initially not interested in just kept taking an interest in me. He probably thought he didn't stand a chance. While I was consistently deleting guys from my messenger list I kept him because he was NONE of those things that Julie described (though I knew nothing of his personal hygiene at the time). He is sweet, kind, caring, funny and he puts up with me! As it turns out he's very clean about his person and car but his house is a total bachelor pad and in serious need of a woman's touch and bleach!

I thankfully have never been mishandled by anyone but i don't think having been plays into wether one is attracted to men or not. My ex wife was sexually abused by several men growing up and raped as a teenager. She has never been even remotely interested in woman. I'm sure millions of people have had similar experiences. We just like what we like and it doesn't have to be all or nothing. I think its perfectly legitimate to be sexually attracted to both sexes but only be interested in a relationship with one or the other. Julie congratulations on finding someone who meets your needs.

Julia_in_Pa

10-10-2011, 12:30 PM

Thank you April. :O)

I found one first try! I chatted with a lot of losers online but this one guy who I was initially not interested in just kept taking an interest in me. He probably thought he didn't stand a chance. While I was consistently deleting guys from my messenger list I kept him because he was NONE of those things that Julie described (though I knew nothing of his personal hygiene at the time). He is sweet, kind, caring, funny and he puts up with me! As it turns out he's very clean about his person and car but his house is a total bachelor pad and in serious need of a woman's touch and bleach!

I thankfully have never been mishandled by anyone but i don't think having been plays into wether one is attracted to men or not. My ex wife was sexually abused by several men growing up and raped as a teenager. She has never been even remotely interested in woman. I'm sure millions of people have had similar experiences. We just like what we like and it doesn't have to be all or nothing. I think its perfectly legitimate to be sexually attracted to both sexes but only be interested in a relationship with one or the other. Julie congratulations on finding someone who meets your needs.

Julia_in_Pa

10-10-2011, 12:31 PM

Melody,

yes it appears you and I have much in common. :O)

Julia

Wow Julie we do have a lot in common really. I too was born intersex and raised as a male.

If I am to be really honest I to also admit I have always had an attraction for men, but there was a couple
of things that stood in my way with that. First of all because I had the body of a male it just never felt right
to even think about anything with a male. I had one experience with a male in my early 20s I did really enjoy
because I didn't think of myself as a male in that situation - it was the first time I really accepted myself as
being a female sexuality.

The issue that held me back the most was trust I was sexually abused my a male cousin, violently abused by
my own father & also raped as a teenager. Also having grown up as a male means I am even more aware of
what guys are really like. So it has been really hard for me to develop trust in men. I am yet to find a guy that
really understands the meaning of love and commitment and thinks about a lot more than just his tiny penis.
And I am not attracted to guys who are dirty and smelly and unkempt in their appearance or carrying any sort
of emotional baggage or chip on their shoulder about women from past relationships. So that makes hard to find
a good man nowadays.

Amber99

10-10-2011, 03:01 PM