Gender Nonconformity Is Not the Same as Gender Dysphoria

[Rianna Humble]

There has been quite a bit of discussion lately about differences between gender variant behaviour and transsexuality, so when I came across these sections in the new WPATH Standards of Care for the health of Transsexual Transgender and Gender Nonconforming people (http://www.wpath.org/documents/Standards%20of%20Care%20V7%20-%202011%20WPATH.pdf), I thought it might be interesting to quote some of what they have to say:


the expression of gender characteristics, including identities, that are not stereotypically associated with one’s assigned sex at birth is a common and culturally-diverse human phenomenon [that] should not be judged as inherently pathological or negative.

and later


Gender nonconformity refers to the extent to which a person’s gender identity, role, or expression differs from the cultural norms prescribed for people of a particular sex (Institute of Medicine, 2011). Gender dysphoria refers to discomfort or distress that is caused by a discrepancy between a person’s gender identity and that person’s sex assigned at birth (and the associated gender role
and/or primary and secondary sex characteristics) (Fisk, 1974; Knudson, De Cuypere, & Bockting, 2010b). Only some gender nonconforming people experience gender dysphoria at some point in their lives.

Treatment is available to assist people with such distress to explore their gender identity and find a gender role that is comfortable for them (Bockting & Goldberg, 2006). Treatment is individualized: What helps one person alleviate gender dysphoria might be very different from what helps another person. This process may or may not involve a change in gender expression or body modifications.
...

Gender dysphoria can in large part be alleviated through treatment (Murad et al., 2010). Hence, while transsexual, transgender, and gender nonconforming people may experience gender dysphoria at some point in their lives, many individuals who receive treatment will find a gender role and expression that is comfortable for them, even if these differ from those associated with their sex assigned at birth, or from prevailing gender norms and expectations.

If I have understood correctly, WPATH ascribes just as much validity to people who cross the gender stereotypes without being TS as to those who (like me) need to transition.

I hope people find this as interesting and helpful as I did.

[ReineD]

Thanks for posting this, Rianna!

[Wendy_Marie]

I Think I see where you are going with this Rianna...My question now is this...How is this going effect those whose insurance is currently paying for their therapy because GID was previously listed as a Disorder and that now is not judged as pathological or negative....as i read it...Further diagnosis is going to be required to establish "Dysphoria" before the person is then considered what a candidate for even HRT?

("Treatment is individualized: What helps one person alleviate gender dysphoria might be very different from what helps another person. This process may or may not involve a change in gender expression or body modifications)

[Rianna Humble]

The first quote seems to me to be more specifically directed to Gender Nonconformity but I could be wrong.

The new SOC definitely still mandate both Hormone Therapy and surgery where this is appropriate treatment for Gender Dysphoria in Transgender and Transsexual people. I believe that the quote which is causing you some concern is setting out that Gender Nonconformant people who suffer some degree of gender dysphoria can be helped without having to be diagnosed as transsexual.

As always, this is only my interpretation.

[LeaP]

" Treatment is individualized: What helps one person alleviate gender dysphoria might be very different from what helps another person"

For some reason this line creeps me out. I think it's the "alleviate" bit. It rather reminds me of lobotomizing someone to give them "relief" from psychosis. How many of you would sign up for testosterone injections for a cure? A transsexual needs intervention to relieve his or her sex & gender disconnect. The rest of us could use reassurance rather than medical relief. Talk about treating symptoms!

Lea

[DebbieL]

This discussion started about 1984 or 1985 and has been going on ever since. The term transsexual has been widely accepted as someone who feels that they are a woman trapped in a man's body. Given time, resources, and no adverse consequences such as loss of family or fortune, and assured of a total transformation, a transgendered person would happily trade his male role and anatomy for a female role and anatomy. Conversely a transsexual F2M would happily trade their female role and anatomy for male role and anatomy. Often these have been their deepest and fondest wishes since they were very young and believed in fairy tales, magic, and miracles. They saw TV episodes where men and women changed bodies and said to themselves "where do I sign up?"

A different term was needed for a much broader range of men and women who wanted same parts of lifestyle of the other gender. The term transgender was coined to cover the entire spectrum from the full-blown post-op transsexual to the cross-dresser and the fetish dresser. The transgender person has a sexual identity but like Kinsey's scale of sexual preference, the transgender scale is also a spectrum ranging from one who is completely gender content and gender conforming to someone who is transsexual and feels they can no longer live in their birth gender. Many of those at the far extreme would rather die than continue to live their lives in their assigned gender. Many male teen suicides, after investigation, are found to have intense issues of sexual identity and/or sexual preference which they no longer feel they can repress.

Often, it's very difficult to accurately rate where someone is on the spectrum.

Many sixes (totally transsexual) may not have the resources to make the transition, or may face consequences such as loss of family, including wives, children, parents, or grandparents. Many have experienced physical abuse, some even life-threatening. They may have deep religious beliefs which they can't reconcile. These may seek to find some relief in private cross-dressing, under-dressing, or fetish dressing, but it's more like symptomatic relief. The worst part is that many of these cases are like time-bombs. When confronted with being forced to live the rest of their lives in their birth gender, they may become self-destructive, even suicidal. They may act out by turning to drugs, excessive drinking, high risk sex, other high risk situations, and interactions with criminal elements who are likely to hurt them or kill them.

On the flip side, there are those who think that they want to switch sexes, but they are only interested in certain aspects of being the opposite sex. For example, they might like dressing up in sexy outfits, but they wouldn't be willing to completely alter their lifestyle to do what it takes to be their desired gender. For example, a male may love getting dressed up and being beautiful and sexy, but still prefers to hang out with men, watch or participate in masculine sports, continue to use masculine tactics of negotiation and persuasion. He may enjoy shaving her legs to get dolled up, but wouldn't want to have to put on make-up every day, even when just going to work or a casual event where she would wear pants and casual top.

The Benjamin protocol of living full-time as a woman prior to making any permanent changes helps sort out the second group, but doesn't address the group who are TS but can't make the transition for whatever reason.

It's only in the last few WEEKS that laws against bullying have protected "sissies", feminine boys who might want to be girls, from serious physical abuse, have been in effect. Even then, this law exists in only a few states, and is not well enforced yet. As a result, we really have no idea how many men are transgendered, let alone how many may be transsexual.

Transgendered women, on the other hand, are much more widely accepted, and have become far more common than most people would have ever expected. They dress more like men, they like hanging out with men, they enjoy traditionally male activities, and even enjoy sex more like men, being more sexually aggressive, being visually stimulated, and making sure that they are satisfied.

Women's fashion has adapted, offering loose fitting pants that look like men's pants, but provide the extra room in the hips, as well as dress shirts and polo shirts that look more masculine, but are cut to accommodate the bust.

If you walk through a mall, grocery store, or most other public areas where there are lots of pedestrians, such as a train station, you find that about 70% of the women are cross-dressed relative to the "Traditional" gender types. Most schools started letting girls wear pants to school in the late 1960s or early 1970s. Almost immediately, a large majority of women started spending most of their time in jeans and pants. The early jeans were boys jeans and women had a hard time with the tight fit around the thighs and butt. On the other hand, they found that boys or men liked that and as a result, often opted to go with a size as close to their actual size as possible. Fashion designers eventually started creating a variety of cuts to women to reflect different tastes.

Ironically, during this same time, men were given concessions, but social pressures were used to maintain conformity. This may have been, in part, because we were still fighting the Vietnam War, still had a draft, and wanted to make sure that men didn't start showing up at boot camp in shorts or hot pants. The gym teachers knew that one of the key mandates of the president's council on physical fitness, which provided most of their funding, was to prepare boys to be ready for boot camp and combat by the time they were of age to be drafted - 18 years old.

Even though the draft is gone, and federal funding no longer carries that mandate, the traditions have continued. Furthermore, many of those phys-ed teachers went on to become the Principals and School administrators. They often took their sexist and gender conformity for men agenda with them to their new positions. Even today, boys can be suspended or expelled for wearing shorts that are too short (though much longer than women's), wearing earrings, wearing feminine shoes, wearing feminine tops, or wearing feminine pants. And even when those sanctions are not officially imposed, the phys-ed teachers will often encourage the school bullies to impose sanctions of their own, which could include beatings - usually in a game of "touch" football or soccer. Whippings with wet towels when the "sissies" come out of the showers are also common. And if there is too much scrutiny or attention, there is always the after-school ambush.

With all of this conditioning of fear, a transgendered person, even a transsexual, may not feel free to express ANY cross-gender behavior publicly until they are in their late twenties or even their thirties. The little "tip-offs", such as earrings in both ears, feminine shirts or brightly colored shirts, or sensual fabrics, may provide a very subtle indicator that the transgendered male population may be even bigger than the transgendered female population, possibly as large as 80-90% being a 3 or higher. The irony is that the transgendered community, both male and female, may actually be the majority, not the minority.

Gender non-conformity may be the tip of the iceberg - the part you actually see is just a tiny little fraction of the entire community.

Wouldn't be a kick if 80% of all women wanted to be men or do man-stuff and 90% of all men wanted to be girls or do girl-stuff. We have been terrorized for the last 70 years (since just before World War 1), into gender conformity against the wishes of the majority.

[LeaP]

"... the transgendered male population may be ... as large as 80-90% being a 3 or higher."

Wishful thinking, I think.

Your comments on gym teachers have a real edge. It doesn't square with my own experience. Do your comments reflect person history issues?

Lea

[ReineD]

I agree with the first half of your post, but the second half just doesn't make sense:


Transgendered women, on the other hand, are much more widely accepted, and have become far more common than most people would have ever expected. They dress more like men, they like hanging out with men, they enjoy traditionally male activities, and even enjoy sex more like men, being more sexually aggressive, being visually stimulated, and making sure that they are satisfied.

If you walk through a mall, grocery store, or most other public areas where there are lots of pedestrians, such as a train station, you find that about 70% of the women are cross-dressed relative to the "Traditional" gender types.

Most women in my neck of the woods do wear pants. But, I would hardly define them as being transgender. These women are feminine no matter what they wear. I do see some women who fit your description, but more so in the lesbian community. The stereotypical image of the butch lesbian comes to mind, but these women hardly represent 70% of the female population.

However, you may be confusing, among other things, an aging woman's body and our national obesity crisis with gender dysphoria. Have you not considered that women are exposed daily to a barrage of 'ideal' female beauty standards put forth by the media. And if a woman doesn't feel as if her body measures up, might she not feel discouraged and simply give up? You're also not considering the busy lifestyle women have nowadays as they juggle jobs and family, nor are you thinking about the average woman's financial resources and how much money is available to her, to keep up with fashion. It's just a lot easier to put on a pair of jeans and a sweater, and then forget about it.

That said and getting back to the quote, have you been on any campuses lately? Most girls do wear jeans. Do you honestly think that 70% are masculine looking and wish to emulate a man's looks and behavior?



Most schools started letting girls wear pants to school in the late 1960s or early 1970s. Almost immediately, a large majority of women started spending most of their time in jeans and pants. The early jeans were boys jeans and women had a hard time with the tight fit around the thighs and butt. On the other hand, they found that boys or men liked that and as a result, often opted to go with a size as close to their actual size as possible. Fashion designers eventually started creating a variety of cuts to women to reflect different tastes.

You're getting your time lines mixed up. Women's fashions adapted to pants before the 60s & 70s. I have pics of my mother and her friends hanging out just after WWII and she and her friends were wearing the loudest plaid pants imaginable, cut to fit their bodies perfectly. And believe me, these women had curves. Besides, prior to the 20s & 30s clothes were still largely custom made and even when mass-produced clothing began during the 20s, the sizes were arbitrary at best and didn't even fit most women. Standard clothing sizes were established just before WWII, and the mass production of pants for women began at the same time, even if for ease and convenience women began wearing pants in a more casual setting while they kept their dresses for going out.

http://museum.nist.gov/exhibits/apparel/history.htm



Furthermore, many of those phys-ed teachers went on to become the Principals and School administrators. They often took their sexist and gender conformity for men agenda with them to their new positions. Even today, boys can be suspended or expelled for wearing shorts that are too short (though much longer than women's), wearing earrings, wearing feminine shoes, wearing feminine tops, or wearing feminine pants. And even when those sanctions are not officially imposed, the phys-ed teachers will often encourage the school bullies to impose sanctions of their own, which could include beatings - usually in a game of "touch" football or soccer. Whippings with wet towels when the "sissies" come out of the showers are also common. And if there is too much scrutiny or attention, there is always the after-school ambush.

Oh please. You're totally dismissing a boy's innate wish to be a male and to fit within the male pecking order, which is the larger reason for homophobia, and not because all these phys-ed teachers became administrators. The majority of boys do not have any degree of gender nonconformity or dysphoria. If they did, don't you think the demand for more feminine male clothing would have revolutionized male fashion by now, just as women's demand for equality revolutionized female fashion? :p



The little "tip-offs", such as earrings in both ears, feminine shirts or brightly colored shirts, or sensual fabrics, may provide a very subtle indicator that the transgendered male population may be even bigger than the transgendered female population, possibly as large as 80-90% being a 3 or higher. The irony is that the transgendered community, both male and female, may actually be the majority, not the minority.

You are dismissing cultural influence in male fashion. I agree with Lea and I think you are also engaging in wishful thinking. 80% - 90%, really?

This is the Harry Benjamin Transgender Level 3: "Masculine (but with less conviction.) Dresses constantly or as often as possible. May live and be accepted as woman. May dress underneath male clothes, if no other chance. Heterosexual, except when dressed. Dressing gives sexual satisfaction with relief of gender discomfort. May purge and relapse."

I live in a college town. I also have 3 sons and have been exposed to hundreds of their collective friends and acquaintances over the years. Go hang out in billiards halls and bars,and in other places where young men congregate when you get a chance. These men are hardly gender nonconformist or dysphoric.



Wouldn't be a kick if 80% of all women wanted to be men or do man-stuff and 90% of all men wanted to be girls or do girl-stuff. We have been terrorized for the last 70 years (since just before World War 1), into gender conformity against the wishes of the majority.

Evidence of more wishful thinking. That said, I don't blame you for wanting to live in a world where the majority of men are more feminine, since there would be less discrimination against the TG community, but to come off as if gender nonconformity or dysphoria is the norm is a bit of a stretch.

[Pythos]

Oh I hope this gets out more. That first definition is ME!!! The only thing that makes it negative are the stupid reactions of ignorant people.

Though maybe I am a bit different due to the way my mind works. But I am not "uncomfortable" with being male, I just don't like many of the things associated with being one.

It is also my understanding that girls WERE NOT permitted to wear pants to school or other formal functions until the 60 and 70s. Yes women wore pants before then, but they did not wear them outside of certain things, they certainly did not wear them to school, work, usually when out shopping.

Now a days a woman wears pants...perfectly acceptable. On the farther end of the spectrum I have a F to M friend that has several feminine qualities, but looks very male. He is fully acceptable out in the public. I CANNOT wear my skirts as a male out in public without drawing some ridicule, except in some situations like clubbing or similar.

Girls that wore boys clothes at my schools were not bullied for that act. Boys were threatened into male conformity by beatings by bullies. I know this because IT HAPPENED TO ME. I never got beaten up for wearing a skirt or feminine styled clothes (because I didn't dare) , but I was beaten up for being a "sissy". Getting beaten up is a pretty big motivator for going along to get along.

I keep reading about how women that wear pants or other male inspired clothing retain their femininity, sort of insinuating males that wear feminine styles should retain their masculinity. I WOULD LOVE TO DO THAT!!! But you see, there are too many that think the "male in skirt " look is "odd", or "doesn't work" I have seen those very terms for this used on this board. When I am in my garb I act like me, no more feminine than I do when in my "male" wear. I can switch from "masculine" to "feminine" behavior at the drop of the hat. This has gotten me quite a following at the clubs, with one person in particular being quite smitten. Out in the general public, this is NOT acceptable behavior for males to do.

An observation I made about my club style is that if you really look at it is that it is no different from when a woman "butches up". In other words she wears clothing normally associated with men, don't wear makeup, and wear a man's hair style, and yet acts like a woman, and does not hide her body shape. I do much the same except the exact opposite. One is acceptable to society for the most part, the other is not. Can you guess which? Can you in any way understand why? Could I take my style, and modify it so that it is less clubby and just "normal", but still with the feminine styles? Somehow I don't think so.

I do not think I have gender dysphoria. I just think I detest the societal norms that we males and female have been pigeon holed into.

[lalajulep]

Gender Nonconformity, I think, is just a term given to people who don't identify with their natural sex. This MIGHT mean people who want to cross over from male to female but, I believe, can also be applied to people who don't identify with any gender or some gender in between.

Gender Dysphoria is more of the mental anguish transsexuals feel when they realize that their sex and gender is not aligned in the gender hierarchy. More of the psychological/clinical perspective.

[Taylor186]

Rianna, a second big thanks from me for posting this information.

[LeaP]

"Gender Dysphoria is more of the mental anguish transsexuals feel ..."

Let's be precise. I've pasted in the proposed DSM-5 definition below. You are obviously calling out the B criterion. The B criterion, which is new, isn't specific to transsexuals, nor is it "mental anguish" (I do recognize your qualifier, i.e., "more of ..."). Seems to me that there's all kinds of distress or impairment rising to levels of clinical concern discussed every day on the forum. Closet behavior, guilt and purging cycles, marital problems, identity issues, depression, social adjustment problems, family rejection issues, and so on. Were I to make an assessment of crossdressers based solely on what I read here, I'd feel pretty safe in stating that a significant proportion of the participants would probably rate a diagnosis of dysphoria using the combination of A & B criteria, maybe even a majority.

Lea


Gender Dysphoria (in Adolescents or Adults)

A. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, of at least 6 months duration, as manifested by 2 or more of the following indicators:

1. a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or, in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics)

2. a strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or, in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics)

3. a strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender

4. a strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

5. a strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

6. a strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

B. The condition is associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning, or with a significantly increased risk of suffering, such as distress or disability

Subtypes

With a disorder of sex development

Without a disorder of sex development


Specifier

Post-transition, i.e., the individual has transitioned to full-time living in the desired gender (with or without legalization of gender change) and has undergone (or is undergoing) at least one cross-sex medical procedure or treatment regimen, namely, regular cross-sex hormone treatment or gender reassignment surgery confirming the desired gender (e.g., penectomy, vaginoplasty in a natal male, mastectomy, phalloplasty in a natal female).

Note: Three changes have been made since the initial website launch in February 2010: the name of the diagnosis, the addition of the B criterion, and the addition of a specifier. Definitions and criterion under A remain unchanged.

[Asche]

Gender Nonconformity, I think, is just a term given to people who don't identify with their natural sex. This MIGHT mean people who want to cross over from male to female but, I believe, can also be applied to people who don't identify with any gender or some gender in between.
That's not how I read the OP, nor would I agree with your definition.

The critical term is "not stereotypically associated..." It speaks only to what most people would associate with the behavior, not with the attitude of the person doing the behavior.

For instance, I wear skirts most of the time, but don't feel any less male because of it. My behavior is "gender nonconformant," because I live in a time and a place where most people expect that only women will wear skirts. I don't expect that, so my skirt-wearing doesn't affect my gender identification at all.

BTW, this is why women wearing pants isn't "cross-dressing" any more. As a result of millions of women wearing pants over many decades and insisting that they are not any the less women for doing it, it is now generally accepted that it's "normal" behavior for women to wear pants. Wearing pants is now "stereotypically associated" with women, as it was not back in, say, 1900.

(Lea Paine has already responded very well to the comment about "gender dysphoria.")

BTW, is there any Official Definition (DSM-V or the like) for "Gender Nonconformity"?

[Jamie001]

Oh I hope this gets out more. That first definition is ME!!! The only thing that makes it negative are the stupid reactions of ignorant people.

I do not think I have gender dysphoria. I just think I detest the societal norms that we males and female have been pigeon holed into.

Pythos, I 100 percent agree with you regarding the pigeon hole that males have been forced into. That is the problem!

[Anne2345]

Were I to make an assessment of crossdressers based solely on what I read here, I'd feel pretty safe in stating that a significant proportion of the participants would probably rate a diagnosis of dysphoria using the combination of A & B criteria, maybe even a majority.

With the basis of your opinion rooted in what you have read here, and your observations of the membership, I am curious as to your conclusion on this. Please elaborate . . . . Thanks!

[Debglam]

I hope people find this as interesting and helpful as I did.

Thanks Rianna! It is very interesting.

[marlaNYC]

i really enjoyed reading your post and the subsequent replies as they covered a huge spectrum of interest for me as a male who prefers being female but would not change because i am not that way inclined. however, the '"Traditional" gender types"' line in Debbie's (very well expressed) response irritated me.

not very long ago, in 'Western' (ok, let's call it European) history, the skirt was a traditional garment for men, up to (bleurgh, vomit) Victorian times. men's costuming was often far more precise and ornate that of the ladies, the male being more a strutting peacock than the female ever was. it is only since the full blood reign of Victoria that the skirt has disappeared from Western men's fashion. the skirt, the dress, is still acceptable in many cultures and civilizations, and the skirt (ie, Kilt) is still a norm with one the most red blooded civilizations i know, the Scots.

this is 'traditional' garb, not what 'modern' society has deemed. romans wore togas, gladiators wore skirts, Scots with their kilts, medieval knights with their long chain mail vests - the skirt is a traditional item of wear for males. it is modern day (130 years or so) society that has changed this.

[ReineD]

*side note*

^ Marla, consider that skirts were universally worn, simply because they are easier to hand sew and fit than pants? Were hand-loomed fabrics also perhaps stiffer (for everyone other than the rich) than current fabrics, thus making movement in pant legs more uncomfortable?

But, even when nobody wore pants, there still was a difference between male and female garb. Men and women wanted to differentiate themselves then, as they do now. A popular debate in this forum is pants vs. skirts: men have always worn skirts, why can't men wear skirts now, are women CDers when they wear pants, it's not fair, etc. The debate or the questions should instead be about why there is a difference between male and female styling, even in eras when everyone wore skirts or now, when everyone wears pants.

And now, back to gender nonconformity vs. gender dysphoria.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Great point Reine..regardless of any specific item of clothes and any specific time period, men and women have always differentiated themselves with clothes (and other things).. and i bet men of those times wore women's clothes for various reasons...
i don't see what point anyone is making when they say that skirts in ancient times were worn by men as men's clothes...if you really like men's skirts, they exist..wear them..what's the big deal....its the additional clothes, the make up, the sexual pleasure, and obsessive behaviour that makes crossdressing a thing vs. simply wearing a skirt....you really do have the right to wear what ever you want, and the "world" reacts as it always does, and always did by looking at you in the context of the current culture's styles and values ..

+++

the idea of gender dysphoria is about identifying and hopefully treating distress..
if you are not feeling distress, you are not feeling gender dysphoria ..
transsexuals, crossdressers, intersexed and gender queer folk can all feel various levels of distress..is it better to try to lump all that into one model? i honestly don't know..but that is the direction it seems its going in the medical community..

transsexuals often express a very profound and suicidal emotion..it feels desperate...its not a longing, or a discomfort..its a feeling that you literally can't survive..the ability to function is impaired to the point of being destroyed.....
estimates are that 30% of ts people kill themselves and many more try..obviously i know more about this perspective given my own experience....this is something that you should get on your knees and pray you never feel..

this feeling often totally surprises people after years of gender nonconformity/confusion/denial/longing... or it creeps up on people who think they have their ts nature "under control"...

marital issues, bedroom issues, pink fog , purging etc are real problems, but are they really clinical?...perhaps , but purging is not an "impairment of important areas of functioning"
pink fog is alot different than suicidal depression..people always say how happy they are to be in a pink fog, no one has ever said that about gender dysphoria..

If the doctors say i'm wrong, i can accept that...but i also realize the "definitions" evolve over time, and have changed many times...what matters is what you feel for yourself..

Having experienced the feelings which i have always called dysphoria, and knowing others who have, i can assure you that you will KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT if you have this feeling. if you don't know, if you are not sure..then its something different, and you should be happy about it....having doctors change the meaning of a word doesnt change what you feel inside and what you are..

[Taylor186]

For me crossdressing is not about which gender currently has the most ornate or peacockian attire. It is about dressing as a woman. Femulating, as one popular web site calls it. If for some reason today's fashions were reversed and women wore chinos and pinpoint oxford buttondowns, then that is what I would need to wear to satisfy my gender discordance (not having dysphoria).

[ReineD]

If for some reason today's fashions were reversed and women wore chinos and pinpoint oxford buttondowns, then that is what I would need to wear to satisfy my gender discordance (not having dysphoria).

Precisely! :) ......

[*Vanessa*]

.
wow - what a great thread, so much information. Please, allow me a question regarding Gender Dysphoria as it is presented here.

Is there a suggested 'Cognitive Therapy' that uses this background information to help sufferers?

Thank-you

[Rianna Humble]

.
wow - what a great thread, so much information. Please, allow me a question regarding Gender Dysphoria as it is presented here.

Is there a suggested 'Cognitive Therapy' that uses this background information to help sufferers?

Before attempting to give an answer to this very thoughtful question, I wanted to find a definition of CT that I could understand. The one I found states
Cognitive therapy seeks to help the patient overcome difficulties by identifying and changing dysfunctional thinking, behaviour, and emotional responses.

As I understand the acute Gender Dysphoria that i have experienced, and that about which I have read from other TS folks, there is no dysfunctional thinking, behaviour or emotional response associated with knowing that your body betrayed your gender.

The only sense in which I would describe spending a whole lifetime not knowing what it really means to be a man but trying to force myself to emulate the behaviour expected of me as "dysfunctional thinking or behaviour" is the sense in which it was wrong of me to try to appear to be that which I never was - a man. That behaviour was not caused by Gender Dysphoria, but the sheer impossibility of the task did contribute to the despair.

To that extent, transition could be seen as identifying the dysfunctional thinking etc. (trying to be what I could never be) and correcting it (by living as who I really am).

[Sophie86]

Thanks for posting, Rianna. I'm glad to see that distinction being made.


Most women in my neck of the woods do wear pants. But, I would hardly define them as being transgender. These women are feminine no matter what they wear. I do see some women who fit your description, but more so in the lesbian community. The stereotypical image of the butch lesbian comes to mind, but these women hardly represent 70% of the female population.

I will agree with you that 70% is an over-estimate, but I strongly disagree that butch lesbians are the only women who fall into that category. I have the very good example of my next youngest sister. She is fully as gender non-conforming as I am, but she gets away easier because of the different rules for women. To wit:

1) she is loud and aggressive, and she curses like a sailor.
2) she has many masculine mannerisms, including the way she eats and the way she walks.
3) she engages in male pastimes, like fishing and hunting.
4) she often wears ratty jeans, t-shirts, and flannel shirts.
5) she enjoys doing construction work, sandblasting, and painting.
6) she can smoke a cigarette and drink a beer while driving a stick shift.
7) she can back a truck through a gate in one try.

On the other hand, she's thoroughly heterosexual, wears girly clothes when she wants to dress up, and primps to the point that my other sisters jokingly call her Precious.


You're getting your time lines mixed up. Women's fashions adapted to pants before the 60s & 70s. I have pics of my mother and her friends hanging out just after WWII and she and her friends were wearing the loudest plaid pants imaginable, cut to fit their bodies perfectly.

I imagine this came to different areas of the US at different times. Your mother probably didn't live in the South. I do have a picture of one of my aunts wearing pants in Alabama c. 1956, but that's the aunt who went on to become a truck driver. Most girls didn't dare do that, because their Baptist minister would have preached them into hell for it. :)

[DebbieL]

I agree with the first half of your post, but the second half just doesn't make sense:
Most women in my neck of the woods do wear pants. But, I would hardly define them as being transgender. These women are feminine no matter what they wear. I do see some women who fit your description, but more so in the lesbian community. The stereotypical image of the butch lesbian comes to mind, but these women hardly represent 70% of the female population.

When I was growing up, boys who wanted to do the things girls did, and wear the things girls wore, were called "Sissies". My 1st grade teacher even tried to explain to the class that "Sissy" was a variation of "Sister" much the same as "Buddy" was a variation of Brother. She was trying to take the power out of the word, but it didn't work. Sticks and Stones will break my bones, but Names will never hurt me. The problem is that the names told all of the other boys where to throw the sticks and stones.

A girl who wanted to dress like a boy, play like the boys, and hang out with the boys - was called a tom-boy. They had to struggle to compete, but since part of being a boy was fighting, the boys learned real fast that she could fight back. Even in skirts, she could run faster, hit harder, and yell louder than any of the other boys. She could climb trees, catch frogs, swing a bat, throw a ball, kick the soccer ball, and get just as rough as any of the boys.

Even in 1st and 2nd grade, we had several tom-boys who were fully accepted by the other boys after the usual "hazing period", and often those girls were chosen very quickly for the teams.

The key is that, since the 1940s, when women had to work in factories while their husbands and boyfriends were fighting in Germany and Japan, women dressing, acting, and working like men has become much more widely accepted. In the 1940s it was their patriotic duty. Those women were the mothers of the girls my age, and they often encouraged their daughters to compete in the boy's word.

Sissies, cross-dressers, and gays were associated with draft dodgers, conscienceous objectors. Men were expected to go to war and fight and maybe die, and any man who didn't seem to fit in, deserved all the grief the other boys could dish out. The fathers of many kids my age were drafted in WW2 and then called back for Korea. Often, their military training showed up in the home, and weakness, cowardice, and femininity were punished by physical abuse. Many of my class-mates came to school with bruises, welts, and cuts, and bragged about it to their friends.


However, you may be confusing, among other things, an aging woman's body and our national obesity crisis with gender dysphoria. Have you not considered that women are exposed daily to a barrage of 'ideal' female beauty standards put forth by the media. And if a woman doesn't feel as if her body measures up, might she not feel discouraged and simply give up? You're also not considering the busy lifestyle women have nowadays as they juggle jobs and family, nor are you thinking about the average woman's financial resources and how much money is available to her, to keep up with fashion. It's just a lot easier to put on a pair of jeans and a sweater, and then forget about it.

A key difference between men and women is not WHAT they wear, but HOW they wear it. A man typically wears clothes designed to protect him, to hide his form, and to hide other things like weapons, wallet, and electronic devices. Mean wear their pants and shirts very loose to hide either their fat parts, or their skinny parts.


That said and getting back to the quote, have you been on any campuses lately? Most girls do wear jeans. Do you honestly think that 70% are masculine looking and wish to emulate a man's looks and behavior?

Look at how the pants are being worn. Women who want to be feminine tend to wear pants that are tighter, even stretch, to show their form. And even heavier women will very confidently wear tight jeans, low cut tops, and tighter shirts to show off their curves. Feminine women delight in showing what they have and attracting others. They also dress for each other. They get support from each other, and they try to cooperate.

On the other hand, the "tom-boy" tends to wear her clothes more loosely, hides her feminine shape, and often keeps her hair short, or gives it very little attention. Most of the time, she dresses for comfort and spends very little time focused on her appearance. I was married to two tom-boys, and they were even proud of the fact that they never used make-up, spend no more than 2 minutes on their hair, and could be dressed in 5 minutes.

Because tom-boys are more accepted, there is less "black and white" an much more shades of grey. For example, a tom-boy might prefer to hang out with the guys, and watch football and hockey on TV and play video games, but doing so doesn't mean that they are forever banned from the girl's club.

I've also known some very "butch" tom-boys who also knew how to "Clean up Good". But when they did, they dressed for the boys, wearing very sexy and even ****ty outfits. I remember several girls who used to brag about their sexual conquests when the guys started bragging about their hot dates.

The funny thing is, that when they wanted a conquest, to put a notch in their belt, they looked for more effeminate boys. That way they got to be in control, make sure they "got their rocks off", and didn't have to be bashful about telling a boy he wasn't finished just because he had shot his load.


You're getting your time lines mixed up. Women's fashions adapted to pants before the 60s & 70s.
This is true. Women started wearing pants in the factories during WW-II, and Kathyn Hepburn almost always wore pants. However, the official policy in nearly all public and private schools up until about 1968 was that female students HAD to wear skirts or dresses, and were not allowed to wear pants. Male student HAD to wear long pants, and were not allowed to wear shorts, skirts, or shorter pants. There were also requirements related to tops as well. Boys had to wear boy's shirts and girls could only wear girl's blouses.

Gym class was a strange reversal. Boys had to wear shorts and sweatshirts, girls wore baggy jumpers that were dark and baggy. I used to try and stretch my gym shirt into a dress. Unfortunately, it kept shrinking back.


I have pics of my mother and her friends hanging out just after WWII and she and her friends were wearing the loudest plaid pants imaginable, cut to fit their bodies perfectly. And believe me, these women had curves.

My dad was smitten by my mother when she was wearing a pair of bright red capri pants that fit to her curves. The irony is that he was effeminate and knew it, and she was very clearly a tom-boy. She wasn't as athletic as the boys, but part of that was because she had had polio and to help her walk, they had to transplant muscles from her big toe to her little toe. The doctor forgot to order the foot to be elevated and the nurse refused to elevate it until she got a doctor's order - so her right ankle was the size of a grapefruit. Dad didn't mind. However, mom almost never wore heels, because it was so hard on her ankles. The only day she wore a full dress with all the trimmings was for church on Sundays.


Besides, prior to the 20s & 30s clothes were still largely custom made and even when mass-produced clothing began during the 20s, the sizes were arbitrary at best and didn't even fit most women. Standard clothing sizes were established just before WWII, and the mass production of pants for women began at the same time, even if for ease and convenience women began wearing pants in a more casual setting while they kept their dresses for going out.


http://museum.nist.gov/exhibits/apparel/history.htm

Women started wearing pants on a regular basis when they had to start working in factories during WW-II. Rosie the Riveter and Wendy the Welder had to wear pants and long sleeved shirts to protect them from bits of hot metal that might land on their arms and legs if they didn't keep them covered. The pants were tight because fabric, like everything else, was rationed. Wearing pants cut straight from a woman's larger hips used quite a bit more material. Tapering the waist and hips used less material and meant more fabric was available for military uniforms and bandages.

When rosie got off of work, she might go out on Friday and Saturday wearing a skirt that had been made shorter and tighter to comply with rationing. The solders who were home on leave, or about to be shipped off to the battle-fields were quite pleased to see the women in these shorter skirts and tighter shirts.

After the war, the women were quite happy to be wearing longer and fuller skirts again, and often used extra fabric for puffy sleeves as well. 20 years after the start of WW-II rationing, the kids whose fathers had fallen for the girls in the short skirts, started wearing miniskirts and tight pants as their own choice, for no economic or political reasons, but the transition did come with a push for more rights for women.


Oh please. You're totally dismissing a boy's innate wish to be a male and to fit within the male pecking order, which is the larger reason for homophobia, and not because all these phys-ed teachers became administrators. The majority of boys do not have any degree of gender nonconformity or dysphoria. If they did, don't you think the demand for more feminine male clothing would have revolutionized male fashion by now, just as women's demand for equality revolutionized female fashion? :p


Perhaps you are right. Perhaps it's purely testosterone that makes boys violent and aggressive. In which case, perhaps they should all be castrated after having their second child. ;-)

Fundamentally, one of the biggest drivers for male conformity during the 1940s through the mid 1960s was the assumption that the majority of all men would end up going to war. After WW-I, WW-II, and Korea, with premonitions of Vietnam and southeast Asia, the assumption was that about 70% of the male population would be drafted for military service.

During the anti-war movement, men began to aggressively break the stereotypes, growing their hair very long, wearing "flower power" clothing, and adopting a calmer and gentler lifestyle. For about 4 years, it was like half the male baby boomers were transgendered. They went to love-ins, slogans like "make love, not war", and the hippie movement was focused on blowing away all the restrictions of gender roles, especially the assumption that just because we were male, we should be forced to go to fight a war we felt we shouldn't be fighting in the first place.

It finally peaked during the "Disco Era". The year Saturday Night Fever came out, men could by platfom shoes with 2 inch heels, Quiana shirts that felt like satin and clung tightly to your body, vests that were stretchy and tight, and fit a bit like corsets, and pants that were very tight and were shiny, so that you could do those fancy dance moves. Even if you couldn't dance like John Trivolta, you could LOOK like him.

By 1980 however, the boomers were out of college and looking for jobs. Their bosses were the WW-II and Korea vets, and didn't have much tolerance for "hippie freaks". Reagan's election clinched it, we all had to go back to our traditional gender roles again.

[ReineD]

Sophie, a picture is worth a thousand words! Here's a group of women at a YWCA camp in 1944. I think this picture was taken in the South:

http://ofanotherfashion.tumblr.com/post/7800560321/these-women-all-wearing-sporty-trousers-are-on-a

Also, I didn't say that only butch lesbians may have a transgender element in their psyches. Some hetero women may feel a degree of gender nonconformity as well, but they are not numerous. When I observe the average women around me, in my small midwestern town, the vast majority do NOT give me the impression they wish to present as men. There are, however, many women who don't have the stereotypical girlie figure and many such women do give me the impression that the latest fashion is not a high priority for them, for the reasons I listed in my prior post.

DebbieL .. I see your latest post just now and I have to run. Will have to read it later.

[*Vanessa*]

... To that extent, transition could be seen as identifying the dysfunctional thinking etc. (trying to be what I could never be) and correcting it (by living as who I really am).

Thank-you for your reply Rianna - I hope I can interject here a little and not be seen as any attempt at derailing the Original Post.

To your point as stated: How I read this as a definition of Cognative Therapy (maybe the difference is in the definition, not sure). My questions is what steps could an individual take to be helped through that process. I am not speaking to a regime of HRT although that maybe part of the process.

Hypothetically speaking: How could I go about integrating both my (lesser) male and (greater) female mindset so that I can become a more complete person without the need of HRT as e know HRT does not alter ones thinking.

[ReineD]

The key is that, since the 1940s, when women had to work in factories while their husbands and boyfriends were fighting in Germany and Japan, women dressing, acting, and working like men has become much more widely accepted.

Here's where we differ. You believe that women dressing (wearing women's pants tailored for their bodies?) and working (outside the home?), are "acting like men".

I believe that a woman can take care of herself, in other words can live in the late 20th and 21st century, and she is not at all acting like a man. She is acting like the independent woman that she is.

My SO and I went to see a local production of the Tennessee Williams play, The Glass Menagerie tonight. It dawned on me why women fought so hard during the last century for equality and independence. They can't rely on men to take care of them! Men divorce them. Men abandon them. Men mistreat them. A woman was pretty well destitute when this happened to her, or she was forced to live in misery. It's a question of survival, really. Just because we are not chattel anymore does not make us any less womanly or feminine.

I can't tell you how much I resent being told we are like men just because we do the things we need to do in order to survive, or we are transgender just because we choose to not look like June Cleaver all the time.

I have no comment on homophobics who call some men sissies. I don't understand it either. But to turn this around and call women transgender who work and dress according to modern fashion is even more beyond my understanding. Honestly, Debbie, I think you're living in your own isolated world.

You got into quite a bit of history about women wearing pants, when it started and why, when girls were allowed to wear them in school, etc. That's fine. I guess your point is that it is not natural for women to wear pants? Again, we fought for equality for a reason, and the freedom to wear pants was a part of this. The changes didn't happen overnight. It started slowly and it took decades for it to reach the mainstream. Well, it's here now, it's not going away, I'm glad, and there's no way that my ability to take care of myself and dress the way I please means that I am transgender or any less of a woman than I am.

So there! :tongueout

Rianna ... sorry to take up so much space about the pant thing again. But I just couldn't not address this. It's a pet peeve. :p

Oh, and BTW, you can see the dress I wore tonight in the first pic of this set (and I wear jeans most always every day, except when it's hot in the summer):
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?158344

[Rianna Humble]

Hypothetically speaking: How could I go about integrating both my (lesser) male and (greater) female mindset so that I can become a more complete person without the need of HRT as e know HRT does not alter ones thinking.

I think that a good first step would be to find a reputable therapist/counsellor who has experience in dealing with transgender folk. They will help you to establish what your aims are and how to set about meeting your needs.

You may well be right that you don't need Hormone Therapy at this stage although I am less sure that this would not affect your thinking.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The "RULES" are different for men and women.....it doesn't matter why...and i'm sure we all agree there is nothing wrong with someone that wants to break those rules...
BUT
But when a woman wears male/masculine clothes, she is NOT BREAKING any "rules", she is NOT gender nonconforming...she is within the rules...there is 0.0% transgender behavior going on..it is simply not comparable at all to male tg behaviour..

the rules are unfair...they are so unfair that men that take great care of themselves fully as men, getting manicures, well styled hair and fitted clothes (in the male style) are sometimes critisized and feminine or metrosexual...but it has nothing at all to do with women ...

and reine...loving that sheath dress...

[*Vanessa*]

" Treatment is individualized: What helps one person alleviate gender dysphoria might be very different from what helps another person"

For some reason this line creeps me out. I think it's the "alleviate" bit. It rather reminds me of lobotomizing someone to give them "relief" from psychosis. How many of you would sign up for testosterone injections for a cure? A transsexual needs intervention to relieve his or her sex & gender disconnect. The rest of us could use reassurance rather than medical relief. Talk about treating symptoms!

Lea

I would like to interject here and bring the Thread back towards the OP;

Treatment here should mean if it is not, self-help. If we can move from "What can I swallow to make my mind a healthier place" to "What exercise can I do to make my mind healthier" then that is the correct means. If we can move from thinking we are a 'victim of circumstance' to 'honing who we are regardless and starting from that point' then we have a greater chance of establishing a better, happier life. If we could borrow an analogy of our cross-dressing/fetish sisters where it is all about the illusion. For them, there is no drugs or knives to make them happy.

It is all in your head. Somehow, that basic thought is lost, dropped form making someone happy. Granted, there is an chemical balance to a healthy brain and drugs can sort that out, most times, in a hurry. Using Cognative Therapy one can achieve like or better result. But, and this is a huge BUT, the person has to do that work! That work, that list of exercises is missing here in the Thread.

[LeaP]

Treatment here should mean if it is not, self-help. If we can move from "What can I swallow to make my mind a healthier place" to ...

It is all in your head.

On the self-help comment, I get what you're saying, but, unfortunately the medical community, officially, diagnoses transgender identity issues, to put it bluntly, as mental illness, though they've become quite PC about using that term. "Illnesses" get "treatments" for "cures" (read relief, in medical parlance), medications, and "symptoms" similarly get treatment. The various proposed diagnoses are better than the old versions, but still approach from the standpoint of illness.

"All in your head" depends on the individual. It may be entirely conceptual (assuming this is what you meant) at some level to some people, regardless of triggers and sources, e.g., childhood parental issues. Research of the last decade or two suggests otherwise for some individuals. Conflicts arising from, say, hormones conflicting with inapposite brain structure (sex standpoint) cannot be said to be in one's head in that sense, and may actually require medical intervention. Self acceptance and cognitive therapy won't do for all, and not just because of social acceptance issues.

Lea

[ReineD]

The "RULES" are different for men and women.....it doesn't matter why...
But when a woman wears male/masculine clothes, she is NOT BREAKING any "rules", she is NOT gender nonconforming...the rules are unfair...they are so unfair that men that take great care of themselves fully as men, getting manicures, well styled hair and fitted clothes (in the male style) are sometimes critisized and feminine or metrosexual...but it has nothing at all to do with women ...

It is true (as we discussed in a different thread) that the vast majority of women and men do wish to differentiate themselves, even if some women wear loose jeans for example. lol. Women know they can still be women despite the clothes they wear, unless of course they purposely and actively present as men, in which case they are met with bias too (just ask the transmen), although perhaps not as much as MtF CDs. So I guess the question is, why is it such a taboo for people to cross the gender lines? I suspect it is deeper than just homophobia and fundamentally it has to do with both, our innate instincts to propagate the species and a fear or a mistrust of anything that is outside the norm and that we do not understand.

When it comes down to wearing skirts though, men are allowed to do this too (kilts, sarongs, etc), as long as they don't try to wear women's skirts. And if you ask the transmen, I'm sure they'll tell you that it's OK to wear women's jeans, but when they alter their appearance as much as the average CD does, it doesn't go all that well for them either.

And it is culturally acceptable for men to groom themselves, as long as they groom in a manly way. I'm thinking of the exec who wears meticulously tailored shirts & business suits, silk ties, expensive rolexes, expensive leather shoes, who colors his grey hair, and who is impeccably groomed including fingernails. I should think the bias against this is more socio-economic than gender.




and reine...loving that sheath dress...

Thanks, but sadly I had to return it. All the clothes were too big, except the first dress which fits like a glove, the skirt (which I can easily have altered), the blue linen shirt, and the cashmere Henley at the bottom. I was floating in the sheath, the pants, and the white blouse.

[Asche]

But when a woman wears male/masculine clothes, she is NOT BREAKING any "rules", she is NOT gender nonconforming...she is within the rules...there is 0.0% transgender behavior going on..it is simply not comparable at all to male tg behaviour..
But Teh Rules(tm) change over time. 100 years ago, those women who wore pants were considered transgender, although they used somewhat different words back then. It took millions of women refusing to accept that "rule," and taking a lot of you-know-what over a period of decades, to change it.


The rules are unfair...they are so unfair that men that take great care of themselves fully as men, getting manicures, well styled hair and fitted clothes (in the male style) are sometimes critisized and feminine or metrosexual...
If you don't like those rules (I don't either), don't waste your energy complaining to people here, most of whom already agree with you. Learn from women's example. Go out and live your life, wearing skirts and pantyhose or getting manicures or styled hair or whatever without disguising the fact that you've got Y chromosomes. When people say that doing so makes you a sissy or destroys your masculinity (or whatever), politely but firmly tell them they're mistaken and go on about your way. And encourage a few of your male friends (or a few million of them) to do likewise.

(Social) rules exist only as long as people (and that includes you, Gentle Reader) act like they exist.

This is one of my pet peeves: people who complain that some right/privilege which other people/groups obtained only after much blood, sweat, and tears hasn't been just handed over to them on a silver platter.

Life isn't fair. Whatever "fairness" we enjoy today has come through the suffering and sacrifices of billions of people over the course of human history, most of whom suffered and died without having any idea whether the world would ever be any better or whether their sacrifices would in any way improve it.

BTW, it may be obvious, but I'll say it anyway: the sort of CD'ing that most people here do -- trying to look as much like a woman as possible, and, if possible, "passing" for female, does not in any way weaken those rules. If doing that kind of CD'ing "floats your boat," go ahead and do it with my blessing. Just don't think that doing so is going to make it any easier for the next guy to go out and, say, get his nails done.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I'm not complaining Asche... pls read the thread.. people that don't bother to read and understand what i post is one of my pet peeves. :sad:

I was talking about unfairness to get it out of the discussion...
i was indicating that i have empathy for that point of view because it is often discussed here as a justification for dressing...the idea that women are crossdressers is something that gets talked about sometimes...

my comment about men getting groomed was only to illustrate just how far and deep this feeling is in our culture today

Reine..actually having been in the board rooms of some of the largest companies in america as a man, and now living as a woman..i can tell you from experience that its more sexist than you can ever imagine.. and that even the well groomed power broker can miss the whispers if he takes his grooming to far..its more about "gay" than "gender" though..

[Aprilrain]

This discussion started about 1984 or 1985 and has been going on ever since. The term transsexual has been widely accepted as someone who feels that they are a woman trapped in a man's body. Given time, resources, and no adverse consequences such as loss of family or fortune, and assured of a total transformation, a transgendered person would happily trade his male role and anatomy for a female role and anatomy. Conversely a transsexual F2M would happily trade their female role and anatomy for male role and anatomy. Often these have been their deepest and fondest wishes since they were very young and believed in fairy tales, magic, and miracles. They saw TV episodes where men and women changed bodies and said to themselves "where do I sign up?"

A different term was needed for a much broader range of men and women who wanted same parts of lifestyle of the other gender. The term transgender was coined to cover the entire spectrum from the full-blown post-op transsexual to the cross-dresser and the fetish dresser. The transgender person has a sexual identity but like Kinsey's scale of sexual preference, the transgender scale is also a spectrum ranging from one who is completely gender content and gender conforming to someone who is transsexual and feels they can no longer live in their birth gender. Many of those at the far extreme would rather die than continue to live their lives in their assigned gender. Many male teen suicides, after investigation, are found to have intense issues of sexual identity and/or sexual preference which they no longer feel they can repress.

Often, it's very difficult to accurately rate where someone is on the spectrum.

Many sixes (totally transsexual) may not have the resources to make the transition, or may face consequences such as loss of family, including wives, children, parents, or grandparents. Many have experienced physical abuse, some even life-threatening. They may have deep religious beliefs which they can't reconcile. These may seek to find some relief in private cross-dressing, under-dressing, or fetish dressing, but it's more like symptomatic relief. The worst part is that many of these cases are like time-bombs. When confronted with being forced to live the rest of their lives in their birth gender, they may become self-destructive, even suicidal. They may act out by turning to drugs, excessive drinking, high risk sex, other high risk situations, and interactions with criminal elements who are likely to hurt them or kill them.

On the flip side, there are those who think that they want to switch sexes, but they are only interested in certain aspects of being the opposite sex. For example, they might like dressing up in sexy outfits, but they wouldn't be willing to completely alter their lifestyle to do what it takes to be their desired gender. For example, a male may love getting dressed up and being beautiful and sexy, but still prefers to hang out with men, watch or participate in masculine sports, continue to use masculine tactics of negotiation and persuasion. He may enjoy shaving her legs to get dolled up, but wouldn't want to have to put on make-up every day, even when just going to work or a casual event where she would wear pants and casual top.

The Benjamin protocol of living full-time as a woman prior to making any permanent changes helps sort out the second group, but doesn't address the group who are TS but can't make the transition for whatever reason.

It's only in the last few WEEKS that laws against bullying have protected "sissies", feminine boys who might want to be girls, from serious physical abuse, have been in effect. Even then, this law exists in only a few states, and is not well enforced yet. As a result, we really have no idea how many men are transgendered, let alone how many may be transsexual.

Transgendered women, on the other hand, are much more widely accepted, and have become far more common than most people would have ever expected. They dress more like men, they like hanging out with men, they enjoy traditionally male activities, and even enjoy sex more like men, being more sexually aggressive, being visually stimulated, and making sure that they are satisfied.

Women's fashion has adapted, offering loose fitting pants that look like men's pants, but provide the extra room in the hips, as well as dress shirts and polo shirts that look more masculine, but are cut to accommodate the bust.

If you walk through a mall, grocery store, or most other public areas where there are lots of pedestrians, such as a train station, you find that about 70% of the women are cross-dressed relative to the "Traditional" gender types. Most schools started letting girls wear pants to school in the late 1960s or early 1970s. Almost immediately, a large majority of women started spending most of their time in jeans and pants. The early jeans were boys jeans and women had a hard time with the tight fit around the thighs and butt. On the other hand, they found that boys or men liked that and as a result, often opted to go with a size as close to their actual size as possible. Fashion designers eventually started creating a variety of cuts to women to reflect different tastes.

Ironically, during this same time, men were given concessions, but social pressures were used to maintain conformity. This may have been, in part, because we were still fighting the Vietnam War, still had a draft, and wanted to make sure that men didn't start showing up at boot camp in shorts or hot pants. The gym teachers knew that one of the key mandates of the president's council on physical fitness, which provided most of their funding, was to prepare boys to be ready for boot camp and combat by the time they were of age to be drafted - 18 years old.

Even though the draft is gone, and federal funding no longer carries that mandate, the traditions have continued. Furthermore, many of those phys-ed teachers went on to become the Principals and School administrators. They often took their sexist and gender conformity for men agenda with them to their new positions. Even today, boys can be suspended or expelled for wearing shorts that are too short (though much longer than women's), wearing earrings, wearing feminine shoes, wearing feminine tops, or wearing feminine pants. And even when those sanctions are not officially imposed, the phys-ed teachers will often encourage the school bullies to impose sanctions of their own, which could include beatings - usually in a game of "touch" football or soccer. Whippings with wet towels when the "sissies" come out of the showers are also common. And if there is too much scrutiny or attention, there is always the after-school ambush.

With all of this conditioning of fear, a transgendered person, even a transsexual, may not feel free to express ANY cross-gender behavior publicly until they are in their late twenties or even their thirties. The little "tip-offs", such as earrings in both ears, feminine shirts or brightly colored shirts, or sensual fabrics, may provide a very subtle indicator that the transgendered male population may be even bigger than the transgendered female population, possibly as large as 80-90% being a 3 or higher. The irony is that the transgendered community, both male and female, may actually be the majority, not the minority.

Gender non-conformity may be the tip of the iceberg - the part you actually see is just a tiny little fraction of the entire community.

Wouldn't be a kick if 80% of all women wanted to be men or do man-stuff and 90% of all men wanted to be girls or do girl-stuff. We have been terrorized for the last 70 years (since just before World War 1), into gender conformity against the wishes of the majority.

a transgendered male is a genetic female who identifies as a male and a transgendered female is a genetic male who identifies as a female where have you been ????

[Melody Moore]

Thanks Rianna for posting this thread.

My weekend has been so busy with having to run a support group meeting on Saturday afternoon go to
a LGBTIQ function that same night night as well - so today (Sunday) has been a recovery day for me.:yawn:
Anyway, I will post my feedback & comments later after I have a chance to catch up soon on all the replies.

:hugs:

[Aprilrain]

I have the very good example of my next youngest sister. She is fully as gender non-conforming as I am, but she gets away easier because of the different rules for women. To wit:

1) she is loud and aggressive, and she curses like a sailor.
2) she has many masculine mannerisms, including the way she eats and the way she walks.
3) she engages in male pastimes, like fishing and hunting.
4) she often wears ratty jeans, t-shirts, and flannel shirts.
5) she enjoys doing construction work, sandblasting, and painting.
6) she can smoke a cigarette and drink a beer while driving a stick shift.
7) she can back a truck through a gate in one try.

On the other hand, she's thoroughly heterosexual, wears girly clothes when she wants to dress up, and primps to the point that my other sisters jokingly call her Precious.


HA hA ! your sister and I would get along swimmingly except for the fishing BORING! and I don't drink and drive (anymore) however I still fail to see how this is gender non-conforming behavior for a woman. Woman are allowed to behave this way and still be considered woman and in fact i would argue that many males would applaud a woman who could do these things well and still be the belle at the ball. This doesn't change her status as a woman though at the end of the day she is not trying to pass as a man.
CDers are trying there best to pass as woman wether they do or not is immaterial. Many want to "feel" like a woman while dressed and even express the desire to be with a man while dressed to complete the feminine persona. This is way different than a tomboy. Im a tomboy I can do all the things you describe especially backing up large vehicles I wouldn't trust my BF to do that! he's been a car driver his whole life I've driven all sorts of things from RVs to motorcycles.
but that doesn't change my gender identity FEMALE. There is a lot of whining around here about men not being able to wear certain clothes in public but remember that while woman have free range to dress how they please woman also deal with a LOT of BS from men and a social system designed by men.

[*Vanessa*]

Further to #1 & #27

Over time we as a society generally change for the better as more current information comes forth.

Shames of the past;
My father went to an insane asylum (as it was called) when I was 5 years old so he could dry-out from alcohol. Don’t read into this as he was a good provider for his family and worked hard for his community and country. An acquaintance of mine went in for stock treatments for his homosexuality when he was a young man thinking this would cure him.

Our experience changes as we get better information.

We need to change our thinking of how to change the mind to suite the body and start helping the brain learn what the body needs for happiness. This does not eliminate the possibilities that HRT will be offered and used as that is another issue. We do not need to block people the way our current society suggesting and only treat their mental illness. Luddites unite and jump off a cliff. I suppose the term 'In the mind' may be confusing or ambiguous (that is not my intent). I meant that literally, it is not a broken bone or bruised appendage we referring to. All of the work that needs to be done is using the brain to help the mind alleviate the pain associated with being transgender. I am not suggesting that it is a cure; I am suggesting it is a normal thought process that may at some point include transitioning the physical body.

I have witnessed a therapy directed by a highly qualified and renowned psychiatrist that helped an individual eliminate all medication and was replaced them with Cognitive Therapy. Granted with approach will not work for everyone, but why throw the baby out with the bath water. The patient was an individual with above average intelligence and an extremely strong desire to do the work needed.
There has to be individuals steeped in education willing to offer/develop basic tools that individuals can use to help ‘cork the genie’ at least until the bigger decisions can be made. Please don’t suggest that I look into making an appointment with a psychiatrist or psychologist in an attempt to side-step this issue, it is not about me but the ones that follow (personally, I have a good list of tools now).

This was offered as input to a complex problem not as an argument against any individual.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

vanessa i don't understand what you are saying..

[Sophie86]

HA hA ! your sister and I would get along swimmingly except for the fishing BORING! and I don't drink and drive (anymore) however I still fail to see how this is gender non-conforming behavior for a woman. Woman are allowed to behave this way and still be considered woman and in fact i would argue that many males would applaud a woman who could do these things well and still be the belle at the ball. This doesn't change her status as a woman though at the end of the day she is not trying to pass as a man.

What you are saying is that women no longer have a standard of gender behavior with which they have to conform. They can dress and act like men, and no one cares. Reine has said before that it's just the butch lesbians who are outside the accepted range of female behavior. Apparently, a woman can be butch, so long as she's not a lesbian, and still be within the accepted gender norm for females. (And presumably, she can be lesbian so long as she's not butch, and still be within the norm.) That gives women a heckuva lot of freedom, especially when you consider that 120 years ago they were wearing this (http://www.victorianbazaar.com/Images/3victwomen.gif).

Which is fine. They fought for that freedom, and they earned it.

One day men will have that same degree of freedom, but we will have to fight for it and earn it.

[ReineD]

Reine has said before that it's just the butch lesbians who are outside the accepted range of female behavior. Apparently, a woman can be butch, so long as she's not a lesbian, and still be within the accepted gender norm for females.

No, that's not what I said. I was responding to Debbie's suggestion that 70% women are transgeender because they wear pants. I brought up the image of a butch lesbian to illustrate a GG who might possibly be a gender nonconformist and further said such women aren't the norm.

A woman is not acting like a man when she fishes, plays sports, works, does yarwork, washes her car, pays the bills, and the list is endless. A man is not acting like a woman when he gives his baby a bottle and changes his diaper, has a tea party with his little girl, cooks a meal, bakes a cake, does his laundry, sews on a button, types up his own report in Word, or knits a scarf and the list is equally endless.

Enough already. Lol. The times, they have a changed. :)

Men wearing women's skirts? I'll give you that one. But usually it's not just the skirt, it's the whole shabang. Women are eyed with just as much suspicion if they pack and glue hair on their faces. (To the transmen, I'm just using this as a comparison) ,

[Aprilrain]

A woman is not acting like a man when she fishes, plays sports, works, does yarwork, washes her car, pays the bills, and the list is endless. A man is not acting like a woman when he gives his baby a bottle and changes his diaper, has a tea party with his little girl, cooks a meal, bakes a cake, does his laundry, sews on a button, types up his own report in Word, or knits a scarf and the list is equally endless.

THANK YOU! Some one attempting to look as much like the opposite sex as possible is very different from men and woman who have no aspirations of looking acting or feeling like the other sex, doing activities that in 1950s america may have been out of place for a man or woman to do. The very next decade pretty much blew those ideals right out of the water and THAT decade was 50 years ago!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

What you are saying is that women no longer have a standard of gender behavior with which they have to conform. They can dress and act like men, and no one cares. Reine has said before that it's just the butch lesbians who are outside the accepted range of female behavior. Apparently, a woman can be butch, so long as she's not a lesbian, and still be within the accepted gender norm for females. (And presumably, she can be lesbian so long as she's not butch, and still be within the norm.) That gives women a heckuva lot of freedom, especially when you consider that 120 years ago they were wearing this (http://www.victorianbazaar.com/Images/3victwomen.gif).

Which is fine. They fought for that freedom, and they earned it.

One day men will have that same degree of freedom, but we will have to fight for it and earn it.

this is basically right...but women earned something much more important than wearing clothes...
and when a woman actually impersonates a man, its still outside the boundry of generally accepted female behavior..

impersonating the other gender is always outside the boundry..it is still played for laughs or as a sign of mental instability in the media, it is still attacked in many religious circles, etc...
wearing the clothes is different...

it seems quite silly for men to fight for the rights to wear high heels,stockings and party dresses and have that considered mainstream male behavior...men already have and always had the rights women fought for..

the whole idea that women are tg for wearing pants is not a serious point of view.

also its ironic that for years a major symbol of the women's movement was bra burning, and here we all are fighting for the right to wear one and not get persecuted!

[vikki2020]

Fascinating discussion! Thanks for everyone's input!

[Sophie86]

A woman is not acting like a man when she fishes, plays sports, works, does yarwork, washes her car, pays the bills, and the list is endless.

A hundred years ago, people would have said that by engaging in behaviors reserved for men she was acting like a man. No, we don't say that now, but that's because the range of accepted behavior has been expanded for women.


Men wearing women's skirts? I'll give you that one.

What about wigs, makeup, lace, perfume, hose, and high heels? You say we would be impersonating women if we wore all that stuff? Maybe not (http://www.pagefarm.net/wiki/images/d/d8/Louis_XIV.jpg).

If women aren't crossdressing unless they pack, then we're not crossdressing unless we wear breast forms.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The range of accepted behavior for either gender does NOT include IMPERSONATING the other gender...ESPECIALLY if it usually includes a sexual component..

you dont have to pack or wear breast forms to impersonate...

Louis the 14th was not impersonating a woman

there were crossdressers in those days too..

http://www.17thcenturyfashion.com/17th-century-clothes-worn-by-men-and-women/

[ReineD]

A hundred years ago, people would have said that by engaging in behaviors reserved for men she was acting like a man. No, we don't say that now, but that's because the range of accepted behavior has been expanded for women.

As it has for men. See the following sentence in my paragraph that you quoted.



What about wigs, makeup, lace, perfume, hose, and high heels? You say we would be impersonating women if we wore all that stuff? Maybe not (http://www.pagefarm.net/wiki/images/d/d8/Louis_XIV.jpg).

That's awesome! :) You're posting the exact same link I posted in another thread on September 29, as an example of a 17th century male who DID NOT crossdress. lol. The second link in my post shows what Louis XIV would had worn, if he had been a crossdresser:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?160824-Immagine-if-men-s-fashion-went-totally-fem&p=2610503&viewfull=1#post2610503



If women aren't crossdressing unless they pack, then we're not crossdressing unless we wear breast forms.

We can certainly start a discussion about whether or not men crossdress, when they present fully as men. We have a few members such as Intertwined and Jive Turkey on Rye, and even Pythos sometimes who do not present as women (sorry to single you three out).

But, if we are to focus the discussion on the crossdressing norms rather than the exceptions, I think it's pretty safe to say that the vast majority of the members on this site do emulate a woman's appearance. Certainly you do, in your avatar. Whereas the vast majority of women who wear pants don't attempt (nor is it their desire) to emulate men ... except for transmen (and also as I mentioned earlier, perhaps some butch women are gender nonconformists ... although you'd have to ask them to confirm this, but they certainly aren't the norm).

[Dawn cd]

Reine asked "why is it such a taboo for people to cross the gender lines?" and speculated that it might be connected with the need to propagate the species. Let me suggest that it stems from the need of people for an ordered, structured society, which makes them extremely uncomfortable with out-of-the-box behavior. The need for structure usually reflects a limited education, or limited experience, which makes it imperative to hold onto what is familiar, known, e.g., what their parents told them, what their pastor told them, etc. It is the very structure of stereotypical behavior, against which all noncomformists must struggle. Fortunately--as others in this thread have pointed out--stereotypical behavior can evolve. Gays are today experiencing a greater level of acceptance. Transgenders, who constitute a smaller segment of society, have lagged behind. But there is hope for evolution in our case too.

[Fractured]

There has been quite a bit of discussion lately about differences between gender variant behaviour and transsexuality, so when I came across these sections in the new WPATH Standards of Care for the health of Transsexual Transgender and Gender Nonconforming people (http://www.wpath.org/documents/Standards%20of%20Care%20V7%20-%202011%20WPATH.pdf), I thought it might be interesting to quote some of what they have to say:


Gender nonconformity refers to the extent to which a person’s gender identity, role, or expression differs from the cultural norms prescribed for people of a particular sex (Institute of Medicine, 2011). Gender dysphoria refers to discomfort or distress that is caused by a discrepancy between a person’s gender identity and that person’s sex assigned at birth (and the associated gender role
and/or primary and secondary sex characteristics) (Fisk, 1974; Knudson, De Cuypere, & Bockting, 2010b). Only some gender nonconforming people experience gender dysphoria at some point in their lives.

If I have understood correctly, WPATH ascribes just as much validity to people who cross the gender stereotypes without being TS as to those who (like me) need to transition.

I hope people find this as interesting and helpful as I did.

I read the SOC Rev 7 and did find it interesting. Thanks. And the quote is a good one. My interpretation: Effeminate men and masculine women can be gender non-conforming while not necessarily being dysphoric. Masculine men and feminine women can be gender non-conforming while not necessarily being dysphoric. The key point is the "discomfort or distress." Is the person experiencing discomfort or distress by trying to live in a role that is not suitable for them. Is the distress they feel severe enough to warrant changing the descriptor from gender nonconforming to dysphoric. And once at the level of dysphoria, what is the appropriate treatment?

Definitely points to ponder.

[Kaz]

Fantastic thread... lots to think about... nothing to add... except that I just regard myself as 'ever so slightly mad'... but I am enjoying it!

[LeaP]

The key point is the "discomfort or distress." ... Is the distress they feel severe enough to warrant changing the descriptor from gender nonconforming to dysphoric. And once at the level of dysphoria, what is the appropriate treatment?


Except that there isn't agreement on this point. First, it's distress and/or impairment, which covers an enormous range of activities, feelings, social situations, work, etc. Second, there are no studies wherein uniformity of diagnoses are confirmed. I.e. no consensus on the notion of distress can be cited as part of a diagnosis even if there were a standard ... Which there isn't. The softness of this point is well known and cited in medical literature as a point of manipulation by those seeking HRT and SRS. Some have proposed removing the distress language entirely from the DSM. Finally, "dysphoria" and "non-conforming" are being discussed (debated?) in medical circles currently. While "non-conforming" has picked up in popularity, it's not currently an actual diagnosis.

Lea

[ReineD]

The key point is the "discomfort or distress." ... Is the distress they feel severe enough to warrant changing the descriptor from gender nonconforming to dysphoric. And once at the level of dysphoria, what is the appropriate treatment?

Except that there isn't agreement on this point. First, it's distress and/or impairment, which covers an enormous range of activities, feelings, social situations, work, etc. Second, there are no studies wherein uniformity of diagnoses are confirmed. I.e. no consensus on the notion of distress can be cited as part of a diagnosis even if there were a standard ... Which there isn't. The softness of this point is well known and cited in medical literature as a point of manipulation by those seeking HRT and SRS. Some have proposed removing the distress language entirely from the DSM. Finally, "dysphoria" and "non-conforming" are being discussed (debated?) in medical circles currently. While "non-conforming" has picked up in popularity, it's not currently an actual diagnosis.

Lea

I agree with Lea. Although "gender non-conforming" is a good description for many members here who do not have gender dysphoria, it cannot be measured.

There is a wide range of masculine and feminine traits and behaviors within the normative male and female genders respectively, where individuals who are not overly masculine or feminine still do not consider themselves gender nonconformists:

Example A (male): An intellectual whose interests lie in academics or research and because of this he has absolutely no interest in stereotypical male pursuits such as beer, cars, or sports, which he finds personally boring. He loves to wear bright pink or lime green ties because he likes bold colors, but he has no desire to wear feminine clothing since he thinks of himself as fully male. He's a dreamer, always thinking about new ideas for social reform or new inventions, so he appears shy and non-agressive to others, even though he is not.

Example B (female): A middle school female gym teacher, happily married, mother of two, who has no interest in stereotypical feminine pursuits and who feels that long hair, makeup, dresses, and heels are impractical and a waste of money since she spends her time coaching kids (although she certainly will put on a basic dress for momentous occasions). She identifies fully as a woman, a wife, and a mother. She doesn't attempt to look male but instead she keeps her hair in a woman's short style and buys her very basic clothes in a women's department store ... her choices are based on the clothing ease of care.

On the other hand, there are people who look like examples A & B above but who are gender non-conformists:

Example C (male): He feels deeply at odds with other males and because of this he rejects beer, cars, and sports. He harbors a secret desire to express femininity, yet he is deathly afraid others will guess his secret. He underdresses and he wears pink male clothing as much as he can as his best form of rebellion against gender conformity. There is a degree of discomfort with being male.

Example D (female): She has always hated anything girly and she would die first before wearing a dress. She rebels against long hair, not because it is impractical for her job, but because she does not want to be associated with the feminine gender, so she wears her hair on the mannish side. She purposely chooses to wear male looking clothes and shoes because of the image she wants to project, and not because they are easy to care for. There is a degree of discomfort with being female.

Only the individuals can decide whether they are fall within the gender normative range or if they are nonconformists, and I'm afraid the two can be confused, at least through outward appearance. Many CDs in this forum for example may not be able to discriminate between the two females in examples B & D and they will judge them both to have gender issues. :p

BTW .. I know a woman just like my example B. She does not have gender issues.

[kymmieLorain]

I guess I haven't been conforming since birth. now I know why. LOL

Kymmie Lorain

[Rianna Humble]

Only the individuals can decide whether they are fall within the gender normative range or if they are nonconformists, and I'm afraid the two can be confused, at least through outward appearance.

Whilst I agree that some people may try to judge a person by their outward opinion, if we accept the Institute of Medicine's definition of Gender Nonconformity
Gender nonconformity refers to the extent to which a person’s gender identity, role, or expression differs from the cultural norms prescribed for people of a particular sex.
I do not believe that a quite dreamer's gender identity or role differs from cultural norms prescribed for a male and indeed, I do not believe that his expression is outside the cultural norms for a quite male.

Neither would I believe that someone who is a wife and a mother is adopting a role or an identity outside of the cultural norms prescribed for a female, her outward expression may differ slightly from that which was prescribed in the early stages of last century but as time moves on, so do cultural norms.

Your other two examples seem to me to be clear cases of someone whose gender identity and expression differ from the cultural norm for a male and would, in my not so humble opinion, correctly be considered gender nonconforming.

Looking back, I see that the first part of the IoM definition has always applied to me even when I was trying to portray myself as a man.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

gosh it really is kind of a tricky concept...

I like the concept of "gender nonconforming" as a very easy to understand concept... If you read the whole thing on the link, its really just saying that gender is diverse... i have always felt that we live in a world that is constructed around the two genders..i still think this is true... so it makes sense to me that people that don't conform, are subject to feeling stress...
..if the person is stressing that hopefully they can find a way to de stress..

i don't have a problem with doing things like providing safe HRT to someone that really probably isn't transsexual....and making HRT more available will help alot of young ts people that medicate out of the box..

i had always thought of the word dysphoria as the feeling ts people get when their "bell is rung"...i can attest it is the worst feeling i ever felt, it was a different feeling than i ever felt...i know this because i lived it...looking back i felt lonely and confused my whole life..i didnt have a word for it...it was such a part of me, that i just accepted it...when i started to feel "dysphoria" i never had heard that word...all i knew was something was terribly wrong, and it was different..

so to say someone that is dressing on the weekends feels "dysphoria" doesn't feel right to me... but I don't own that word, and it seems fine to me to use it more broadly to discuss other forms of gender stress..but i can't stress enough how the magnitude of what transsexuals tend to feel is pretty high... as evidence of this look at how over the 70's and 80's trans people basically created their own ecosystem of doctors and meds to help them achieve proper gender roles...it was a matter of survival..

it will be interesting to see if the rubber band snaps back the other way however because one concern that I talked to a therapist about is everybody starting to worry about whether they "have the dysphoria" when you can really just think about it as being stressed out because you are different... one day we will know for sure, but my feeling based on knowing lots of different non conforming people is that the "ts" problem is alot different than the "Cd" problem..... and lumping it all together will be a challenge to medical pros and to all of us.. when you boil it down to a practical problem...if a ts gets to a certain point, she is going to either end up transitioning, or being miserable for her whole life..exceptions to this are uncommon...one idea that WPATH seems to endorse that perhaps identifying people that can do HRT to mitigate the stress and eliminate the need to transition for people that can't transition..that is a really interesting thing, but frankly to me, it feels sad because i have experienced actually living as female and i know what it means to me as ts..

So for the cd and other gender nonconforming person, saying they have dysphoria means what exactly??? i think the biggest thing it means is that WPATH is saying that there are alot of you and me's out there, and there is no reason pathologize or create stigma for you or me.... in fact, if there was no stigma, there would likely be no need for treatment at all!! totally different than if the person is ts..

[Melody Moore]

I really like these new Standards of Care because it also helps us to understand other gender
types that might also be affected by gender dysphoria. I think it is really handy for me and my
support group to promote understanding & acceptance of others within the trans-community itself.

[HenryHall]

There has been quite a bit of discussion lately about differences between gender variant behaviour and transsexuality, so when I came across these sections in the new WPATH Standards of Care for the health of Transsexual Transgender and Gender Nonconforming people (http://www.wpath.org/documents/Standards%20of%20Care%20V7%20-%202011%20WPATH.pdf), I thought it might be interesting to quote some of what they have to say: ...
If I have understood correctly, WPATH ascribes just as much validity to people who cross the gender stereotypes without being TS as to those who (like me) need to transition.
I hope people find this as interesting and helpful as I did.
Agreed with all the above, especially the interesting (and some of it philosophical) discussion.

You can also look at the SOCv7 from a purely pragmatic point of view:

Gender non-conformity is not pathological
This statement noted that “the expression of gender characteristics, including identities, that are not stereotypically associated with one’s assigned sex at birth is a common and culturally-diverse human phenomenon [that] should not be judged as inherently pathological or negative.”
Gender Dysphoria is diagnosable and therefore pathological
Thus, transsexual, transgender, and gender nonconforming individuals are not inherently disordered. Rather, the distress of gender dysphoria, when present, is the concern that might be diagnosable and for which various treatment options are available
Gender Dysphoria is mental illness, Gender non-conformity is not mental illness. This might change in the future, but only after the DSM and ICD are revised. Until then Gender Dysphoria remains a mental illness and it must be diagnosed by a mental health professional.
Research is leading to new diagnostic nomenclatures, and terms are changing in both the DSM (Cohen-Kettenis & Pfäfflin, 2010; Knudson, De Cuypere, & Bockting, 2010b; Meyer-Bahlburg, 2010; Zucker, 2010) and the ICD. For this reason, familiar terms are employed in the SOC and definitions are provided for terms that may be emerging. Health professionals should refer to the most current diagnostic criteria and appropriate codes to apply in their practice areas
Treatment is available under the SOCv7 only for Gender Dysphoria.
Gender dysphoria can in large part be alleviated through treatment (Murad et al., 2010).

What this boils down to is that if you are transsexual and distressed about it then you are considered to be mentally ill.

If you transsexual and not distressed about it then you are not considered to be mentally ill. But you don't qualify for treatment. This can be interpreted as coercion to feign distress as somatic treatment is held hostage to mental diagnosis. Or you can buy into the pretty, conciliatory and condescending language and not look at the SOCv7 from a pragmatic viewpoint at all.

Opinions on this will vary. Let us at least agree that opinions will vary.

[sanderlay]

Gender Nonconformity...
This is where I stand as a two spirited person. Saying I'm both male and female in sprit... or at least have those feelings.

Do I need treatment?
I don't want any and I'm a contributing member of society. For me mixing clothing from both genders does the trick than any pill or surgery. Psychology is not an exact science and can sometimes cause more problems than it solves. I'm sure however it can help many people. But you need to be careful that your psychotherapist is not forcing you to conform to a norm that you are not comfortable with. It can assume a mental or emotional problem where none really is.

I personally can cope in society and contribute and take care of myself. I'm not a danger to myself or anyone else. I personally feel society is being to narrow in it's categories of what is normal. But then again... who wants to be normal? Not I... and that makes me unique.

If I was younger I would consider some hormone therapy to increase my breast size. But at my age, 55, I don't want to create any problems. (I am exploring some herbs like red clover which can be beneficial in other ways.)

Is society OK with what I do?
I would say that's mixed. I'm sure there would be some that would say I need a cure to not dress in feminine attire. I would tell them... "I tried being more male during parts of my life. It did not work... and it denied part of who I am. What wrong with some different clothing? I am being modest in my clothing selections. Why make such a big deal because of some clothing? Be glad I'm not a raging alcoholic. I'm not denying other males or females the right for them to be who they are. Let me be who I am."

I think now we are gaining more acceptance as time goes on. What I'm about is misunderstood by many and that creates problems. Education is the key and helping others like me when they're younger. Help them to feel they are not alone and help them to discover who they are.

Each of us is unique. There is not a one size fit all solution or category to explain who we are. Science and society does not have the answers. I think that is up to each of us to discover who we are. We don't have to be... normal.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Henry

Its been mentioned before ... the DSM is a big potential problem...

The WPATH was very focused on inclusion and rightly so i think... its still really important to realize that there are lots of different people out there experiencing lots of different things... and the dsm is more focused on the specific medical aspects
since things are really hard to define (we all argue about this all the time, and we are living it!!)..its hard for the docs too

Non conformity is very difficult to perfectly define...the WPATH is a nice guide though..
dysphoria is easier to identify but its hard to gauge what should be done about it for each person...so the problem we all have is still the same..

btw ... the dysphoria that ts people often feel is certainly clinical...its hard to admit it for us, but i can tell you from experience that i was totally and completely dysfunctional at worst, or perhaps like a functioning zombie that just got through each day as a survival mechanism...its an indescribably horrible feeling....the most common thing a ts person will say is "i would not wish this feeling on my worst enemy"... so when doctors see this, forgive them if they argue its clinical...

surely crossdressers and gender queer people feel anxiety and depression about their gender nonconformity..but my impression is that its not like that...

[HenryHall]

...
btw ... the dysphoria that ts people often feel is certainly clinical...its hard to admit it for us, but i can tell you from experience that i was totally and completely dysfunctional at worst, or ... so when doctors see this, forgive them if they argue its clinical... .
I would have been happier if you had written "the dysphoria that some (but not all) ts people often feel is ..."

I don't see the DSM as the problem so much as the involvement of mental health professionals. The despsychiatrisation of the transsexual journey recently ordered on member states by the European Parliament will eventually change all that.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

henry, this is where you are just being argumentative for no reason..so boring..

what is different between..

the dyshporia that ts people OFTEN feel.
and the dysphoria that some but not all ts people often feel..

[HenryHall]

henry, ...
what is different between..
the dyshporia that ts people OFTEN feel.
and the dysphoria that some but not all ts people often feel..
To answer your question directly, the difference is that
the dyshporia that ts people OFTEN feel (sic)
is likely to be interpreted to mean
the dysphoria that all transsexual people often feel.

Which ignores the issue that not all ts people are dysphoric.
The WPATH SOC substantially ignores the same issue.

TS people who are not dysphoric can in some cases qualify for hormones and surgery under WPATH SOCv6 (though they may be required to play with Barbie dolls or whatever to qualify). But they cannot ever qualify under WPATH SOCv7 no matter what they do (unless they make themselves dysphoric).

Dysphoric people (whether transsexual or not) do qualify for treatment under the SOCv7
Transsexual people people do not qualify for treatment on a basis on being transsexual; they qualify for treatment only on a basis of being dysphoric and only if they actually are dysphoric.

[Rianna Humble]

Dysphoric people (whether transsexual or not) do qualify for treatment under the SOCv7
Transsexual people people do not qualify for treatment on a basis on being transsexual; they qualify for treatment only on a basis of being dysphoric and only if they actually are dysphoric.

Do you actually understand what is meant by dysphoria? I would not judge so from what you have written. Why would a person (TS or not is irrelevant) need treatment if they had no sense of dissatisfaction with how they are?

[Asche]

Gender Nonconformity...
...
Do I need treatment?
I don't want any and I'm a contributing member of society.
...
I personally can cope in society and contribute and take care of myself. I'm not a danger to myself or anyone else. I personally feel society is being to narrow in its categories of what is normal. But then again... who wants to be normal? Not I...
I have pretty much the same attitude, only grouchier:

I work hard. I pay my taxes. I don't throw rubbish onto the roadside, or sell drugs, or rob or rape people, or drop bombs on innocent people, which is more than a lot of people can say. I've done my best to take care of my children and raise them right. I try to Do The Right Thing.

I'm getting close to 60 years old, and I figure I've earned the right to a few harmless eccentricities. I want to do this, I enjoy it, and I'm not hurting anybody. And those who don't like it, or want to tell me I'm screwed up or perverted can [vulgar expression deleted.]

(As he goes off singing, "I don't want to get adjusted.")

[Kaitlyn Michele]

To answer your question directly, the difference is that
the dyshporia that ts people OFTEN feel (sic)
is likely to be interpreted to mean
the dysphoria that all transsexual people often feel.

Which ignores the issue that not all ts people are dysphoric.
The WPATH SOC substantially ignores the same issue.

TS people who are not dysphoric can in some cases qualify for hormones and surgery under WPATH SOCv6 (though they may be required to play with Barbie dolls or whatever to qualify). But they cannot ever qualify under WPATH SOCv7 no matter what they do (unless they make themselves dysphoric).

Dysphoric people (whether transsexual or not) do qualify for treatment under the SOCv7
Transsexual people people do not qualify for treatment on a basis on being transsexual; they qualify for treatment only on a basis of being dysphoric and only if they actually are dysphoric.

whatever floats your boat... must be nice to be able to read minds and make up new meaning's for words..

i didn't realize often meant all!
i didn't realize that "ignoring" meant acknowledging something..

I enjoy meaningless distinctions and misguided semantic arguments so fire away!

[Melody Moore]

Do you actually understand what is meant by dysphoria? I would not judge so from what you have written. Why would a person (TS or not is irrelevant) need treatment if they had no sense of dissatisfaction with how they are?
Rianna, this anti-trans troll does not have a clue, they are only out to cause disputes and arguments
here with respect to the Standards of Care - I think this guy got rejected myself for treatment & now
has a chip on his shoulder about the SoC because this is what his agenda is here. Also see this thread:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?160716-New-Version-of-Standards-of-Care

So let's just starve this sad f*cker of the attention that he seeks and hopefully he will go away soon. ;) :heehee:

[HenryHall]

Why would a person (TS or not is irrelevant) need treatment if they had no sense of dissatisfaction with how they are?
I can't think of any reason, but the question seems to have come from left field.

Perhaps you confuse "sense of dissatisfaction" with dysphoria? In my worldlines they are not one and the same thing.

I can certainly see that transsexual people who have never had any dysphoria can nonetheless be dissatisfied with how they are and be in need medical services.

Though I hate to open the door to an ad hominem attack and prefer to stick to the issues, I have had first-hand experience of being a non-dysphoric transsexual person. I could speculate on the causes, but that would be a distraction. Some other people will have had a different experience and may allow that to color (colour) their viewpoint unduly.

[HenryHall]

...
i didn't realize that "ignoring" meant acknowledging something..
I truly do not see where WPATH has ever acknowledged that non-dysphoric transsexual people even exist. Their document seems to take as an implicit assumption that they do not exist. Or at least we are not worthy of medical services if we do exist.
If you know where WPATH does acknowledge that possibility I would like to be enlightened.

If we are off at a misunderstanding as to what the "ignoring" refers to then let us cordially agree to differ and just let it go.

[LeaP]

"I truly do not see where WPATH has ever acknowledged that non-dysphoric transsexual people even exist. Their document seems to take as an implicit assumption that they do not exist. Or at least we are not worthy of medical services if we do exist."

This isn't rhetorical - have you actually read the SOC? You might start with the statement in the SOC7: "Being Transsexual, Transgender, or Gender NonConforming is a Matter of Diversity, Not Pathology." That's followed by sufficient explication to demolish your statement.

Lea

[Melody Moore]

I don't think dear Henry Know-it-all Hall even understands the distinction between Gender Identity Disorder and Gender Dysphoria.

It is obvious he fails to even understand the whole concept about Gender Dysphoria and that on it's own
GD is not any reason to be started on hormone therapy. Gender Dysphoria can be experienced by others
apart from Transsexuals, such as the transgender & gender non-conforming people, but GD is treated with
psycho-therapy, anti-depressant meds, NOT HRT! But GD does NOT have to be present in a person with GID.

Doctors will only prescribe cross-sex hormones and make recommendations for SRS/GRS for those people who are diagnosed
with Gender Identity Disorder correct the gender misalignment. Hormones are never used to treat Gender Dysphoria on its own!

The more I read these moronic comments from Mr Henry know-it-all the more I get the impression that he has a chip on his
shoulder which could be due to being rejected for hormone therapy because he tried to play the GD card, instead of the GID card.

Medical professionals do accept that there are people like me for example who were started on hormones when gender dysphoria
was not present in my life at the time because I had transcended those issues. GD has been a problem at times in my life, but not
when I started transitioning. I was already living comfortably fulltime as a female when I presented for treatment for the underlying
problem of having GID. However this still did not remove the threat that GD could still manifest itself back into my life at any time.

And dear Henry Know-it-all also overlooks the fact that the SoC are only
guidelines - not a rule book or set of laws that any practitioners must follow.

[sanderlay]

Quote Originally Posted by sanderlay
Gender Nonconformity...
...
Do I need treatment?
I don't want any and I'm a contributing member of society.
...
I personally can cope in society and contribute and take care of myself. I'm not a danger to myself or anyone else. I personally feel society is being to narrow in its categories of what is normal. But then again... who wants to be normal? Not I...

I have pretty much the same attitude, only grouchier:

I work hard. I pay my taxes. I don't throw rubbish onto the roadside, or sell drugs, or rob or rape people, or drop bombs on innocent people, which is more than a lot of people can say. I've done my best to take care of my children and raise them right. I try to Do The Right Thing.

I'm getting close to 60 years old, and I figure I've earned the right to a few harmless eccentricities. I want to do this, I enjoy it, and I'm not hurting anybody. And those who don't like it, or want to tell me I'm screwed up or perverted can [vulgar expression deleted.]

(As he goes off singing, "I don't want to get adjusted.")

I join Asche in her song as we begin to sing louder...

"We don't want to get adjusted."

[ReineD]

TS people who are not dysphoric can in some cases qualify for hormones and surgery under WPATH SOCv6 (though they may be required to play with Barbie dolls or whatever to qualify). But they cannot ever qualify under WPATH SOCv7 no matter what they do (unless they make themselves dysphoric).

Dysphoric people (whether transsexual or not) do qualify for treatment under the SOCv7
Transsexual people people do not qualify for treatment on a basis on being transsexual; they qualify for treatment only on a basis of being dysphoric and only if they actually are dysphoric.



I can certainly see that transsexual people who have never had any dysphoria can nonetheless be dissatisfied with how they are and be in need medical services.

Henry, I can follow your logical interpretation of the SOCv7 based on the language used, and I also see your point, if one accepts that some TSs do not have gender dysphoria. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are saying that the SOCv7 focuses treatment for TS gender dysphorics and not TS gender non-conformists, and you object to this. You feel that TS gender non-conformists also should have treatment (such as HRT if desired), although they do not need input from mental health professionals.

But my question is, how can a transsexual NOT be dysphoric, if we accept the definition of gender dysphoria as having a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with one's birth gender? If a person does not experience dissatisfaction with their birth gender, are they then transsexual?

So, are you saying that if a transgender person is happy with his male identity (therefore he is not TS) but just wants HRT to look more feminine, and he is prepared to live presenting an ambiguous gender, he should be given HRT without any assessment from mental health professionals? Please help me understand your point.

[HenryHall]

Henry, I can follow your logical interpretation of the SOCv7 based on the language used, and I also see your point, if one accepts that some TSs do not have gender dysphoria.Thank you.
I know from first-hand experience that non-dysphoric transsexual people exist.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are saying that the SOCv7 focuses treatment for TS gender dysphorics and not TS gender non-conformists, and you object to this. You feel that TS gender non-conformists also should have treatment (such as HRT if desired), although they do not need input from mental health professionals.I'm saying that SOCv7 focuses treatment for TS gender dysphorics and non-TS gender dysphorics. Being TS gender dysphoric and TS gender non-conformist are not alternatives, a person could be either, both or neither.


But my question is, how can a transsexual NOT be dysphoric, if we accept the definition of gender dysphoria as having a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with one's birth gender? You will find that the consensus definition of gender dysphoria focuses on distress. And for transsexual people the meaning of "birth gender" is totally unclear; you might say it means anything you want it to mean. Only for non-transsexual people does "birth gender" have a clear meaning.

One needs to separate out the concepts of scientific sex (biology 46XX, 46XY, other), legal sex (public record paperwork), and medical sex (medical paperwork assignment that is the most likely to promote heath). Pretty much any combination is possible.


If a person does not experience dissatisfaction with their birth gender, are they then transsexual?Birth gender does not have a clear meaning, but in any case,; but yes! a person is transsexual if they freely choose to go through changing their legal sex and changing their bodies in certain ways. Irrespective of whether satisfied or dissatisfied.


So, are you saying that if a transgender person is happy with his male identity (therefore he is not TS) but just wants HRT to look more feminine, and he is prepared to live presenting an ambiguous gender, he should be given HRT without any assessment from mental health professionals? Please help me understand your point.
I don't like being seen as confrontational, but a transgender person who is happy with his male identity would be what is commonly termed FTM and very unlikely to want to look more feminine. Ugh! :thumbsup:

But in the end the point comes down to this
The SOCv7 offers treatment to Gender Dysphoric people including transsexual people who are gender dysphoric.
The SOCv7 does not offer medical services to non-dysphoric people including transsexual people who are non-dysphoric.
Gender Dysphoria is a diagnosable mental disorder, it is not a somatic (of the torso) disorder according to the best medical authorities.
Some transsexual people do not have any mental disorders. Though they may have somatic disorders.

[ReineD]

I'm saying that SOCv7 focuses treatment for TS gender dysphorics and non-TS gender dysphorics. Being TS gender dysphoric and TS gender non-conformist are not alternatives, a person could be either, both or neither.

By definition, I guess anyone who has alternative gender expression is gender non-conformist. I equate this term to the umbrella "transgender". I take it that crossdressers are gender non-conformists as well, since they do not conform to a way of dressing that the society in which they live defines as gender appropriate. That said, how can a TS not be dysphoric?



And for transsexual people the meaning of "birth gender" is totally unclear; you might say it means anything you want it to mean. Only for non-transsexual people does "birth gender" have a clear meaning.

By birth gender, I mean most people who are either 46xx or 46xy, who have the matching primary and secondary sexual characteristics, and equally as important, who were raised and socialized in the specific gender that matched their birth assigned gender. A TS will feel at odds with having a gender identification that does not match the exterior shell and socialization. Yes, there are also people who are intersex and/or who have chromosomal alternatives, and for these people, "birth gender" would be unclear and I agree we would need to find a better term. But, for clarity's sake (for now) can we limit our discussion to the people who were born either a boy or a girl, and who now wish to change their birth and/or legal sex and/or gender? I do not wish to dismiss anyone else, just trying to keep our examples to fewer variances from within all the subgroups who stand to be helped by the SOCv7.



Birth gender does not have a clear meaning, but in any case,; but yes! a person is transsexual if they freely choose to go through changing their legal sex and changing their bodies in certain ways. Irrespective of whether satisfied or dissatisfied.

Again, assuming we are talking about either a birth male who feels internally as a female, or a birth female who feels internally as a male, why would anyone wish to change their biological gender if they are not dissatisfied with it?



But in the end the point comes down to this
The SOCv7 offers treatment to Gender Dysphoric people including transsexual people who are gender dysphoric.
The SOCv7 does not offer medical services to non-dysphoric people including transsexual people who are non-dysphoric.
Gender Dysphoria is a diagnosable mental disorder, it is not a somatic (of the torso) disorder according to the best medical authorities.
Some transsexual people do not have any mental disorders. Though they may have somatic disorders.

Let's speak for a moment of MtF transsexuals, born male and not intersex, who seek sexual and/or gender reassignment:

If she knows without a doubt she is a woman, despite her chromosomes, her primary and secondary sexual characteristics, the testosterone coursing through her since puberty, the male conditioning she has received all her life (assuming she was raised as a boy), and if she felt no emotional angst over having been given the wrong body at birth, or over the prospect of changing her gender in the eyes of everyone she knows, if societal bias were not a concern to her, nor was she afraid of losing jobs or family as the result of a transition, then I can understand it if she said she did not experience dysphoria (if your definition of dysphoria is distress).

But, I'll venture to say there are very few TSs who feel this way. Many do go through major questioning periods before they reach the point of accepting their true selves, most go though deep upheaval at the prospect of experiencing loss. Many do regret having been robbed of feminine life experiences while growing up, since there is still a lot to learn about expressing a gender different than socialization, despite having a strong internal feminine gender ID.

So unless I'm missing something, I'd say the TS who does not experience Gender Dysphoria or GID would be an exception here. If she didn't experience any emotional issues, it would almost seem as if she had remained detached throughout her life and her process of discovery, and I would question whether or not she was experiencing a condition where one is detached from one's emotions?



Can you give me a concrete example, with details, of someone who may seek help through the SOCv7 and who does not have gender dysphoria or GID?

[HenryHall]

... That said, how can a TS not be dysphoric? ...
Again, assuming we are talking about either a birth male who feels internally as a female, or a birth female who feels internally as a male, why would anyone wish to change their biological gender if they are not dissatisfied with it? Biological gender??
Some people change their legal sex and change the sexual characteristics of their bodies; such people are transsexual by any reasonable definition. As to why they are transsexual, well I don't think anyone knows why some people are transsexual. Dissatisfaction is part of it. But not all dissatisfaction is dysphoria, only some forms of dissatisfaction are dysphoria. So, yes, I would agree that all transsexual people are (or were) in some way dissatisfied, but they are not all gender dysphoric.


If she knows without a doubt she is a woman, despite ...
I think you are starting to describe gender dysphoric MTF transsexual people. But not all transsexual people are gender dysphoric. To be a transsexual MTF requires only a conviction that health would be improved by reassignment from male to female. This is a much lower hurdle than dysphoria.


So unless I'm missing something, I'd say the TS who does not experience Gender Dysphoria or GID would be an exception here. Transsexual people come in many different flavors. Some of the flavors will inevitably be exceptions with respect to other flavors. We really are not all the same, even though some medical professionals seem to think contrariwise.



Can you give me a concrete example, with details, of someone who may seek help through the SOCv7 and who does not have gender dysphoria or GID?
Anyone can seek help, but anyone who does not have gender dysphoria is not going to actually receive help under SOCv7, so there wouldn't be any point in seeking it there. Rather they will obtain hormones and surgery outside the SOCv7, which as we all know requires only USD25k (MTF) or USD40k (FTM) and a willingness to travel internationally or so in the modern age. About the same as buying a new car and many people somehow manage to afford cars. GID is irrelevant in this context, a person can have GID (as per the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria) with or without dsyphoria.