Don we now our GAY apparel

[Frédérique]

“There is only one real definition for the word Transvestite!! That definition is; A person who dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex for sexual purposes!! And that definition is the same all over the world!! Anybody on this forum can certainly call themselves anything they want (as long as it is legal!), but at least be accurate in your definitions!! Those of you who call themselves Transvestites are more likely just crossdressers like me!!”

Let me translate - “for sexual purposes,” means for specific individuals, namely homosexual males, apparently an abhorrent notion to some MtF crossdressers around here. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve seen (and heard) it all before – two years ago, to be exact, and several times since then. Rather than respond to the above-quoted text directly, I thought I would construct another lengthy essay about this stubborn, obstinate, and disappointing perception people have about TV’s. I know that when the term “transvestite” homes into view, those who have made up their minds long ago will take aim and let loose a fusillade of homophobic rhetoric couched in ignorance. The fact that it even creeps into THIS oasis of support and sympathy is downright alarming, but, rather than get upset about things that will NEVER change, I thought I would tell you all a story, actually a confession of sorts...

Not too long ago, I was involved in a love triangle. Yep, little Freddy was the lover of a married woman. I met her in art school, and we often went around together, but never dated. Frustrated with my lack of interest (there were other females around at the time distracting me), my female friend married her other “default” boyfriend, someone she had known since childhood. I was at the wedding. After that, we (obviously) drifted apart as friends, and I didn’t see her for many years, but, after getting a Christmas card from her one December, I decided to visit my former female friend at her home. Her marriage was faltering, due to several factors I will not divulge, and I happened to re-enter her life at a critical moment. The relationship we never had blossomed out of nothing, and the affair began...

This was during the time that my crossdressing (or transvestism, to be more accurate) really began to take off, and the next few years became my “golden” period as a TV. My married girlfriend did not wear feminine clothes to any great extent; in fact years of marriage had turned her into a female version of her husband. I dressed to compensate, but I must say I didn’t think about that at the time. We were “together” as often as possible for nine years, but by the end the heat had gone out of our relationship. She eventually managed to separate from her husband, and got an apartment in another town – I visited her there, and briefly our relationship grew bright again. At the time I was caring for my aging (and ill) father, so I was very much tied to place, constrained, yet wondering about the future. What was going to happen?

Shortly before my father passed away, my love “partner,” for lack of a better description, disclosed that she had met another man at her apartment complex, and there was a new love triangle going on under MY nose. I was shocked, but, in the wake of my father’s death, all sorts of things were on my mind, and I submissively remained her friend. This woman finally divorced her husband (he found out about the other other man), and then our nine-year relationship also capsized and sank. She then told her ex-husband about ME, and I had an interesting conversation on the phone with him one night (he called me). Yes, it’s pretty shocking for a man to find out that he’s been a cuckold for nine years, and I felt guilty for ever getting involved in such a mess, but I did it because I loved the woman. I thought it COULD work, but it didn’t. I’m sorry I tried...

A month went by, and I got another call from my ex-lover’s ex-husband. Apparently she had just told him (out of spite) that I was a transvestite! I told her my most precious secret many years before – she was someone I could trust (I thought), so I told ALL. She kept telling me I was her “soul mate,” and I reciprocated, so why keep things to myself? Well, this innocent attitude came back to haunt me in no uncertain terms. The ex-husband was outraged that his ex had been with a transvestite; in fact he was much more upset about THAT than he was about being duped. He demanded a head-to-head meeting to discuss the issue, and I acquiesced – I really wanted to talk to someone, ANYONE, since all of the secrecy was now out in the open. I went to see him that very afternoon, and we talked for hours in the little TB porch that projected from the second floor of his house (THEIR house)...

We talked a little about the love triangle and its repercussions, but, loosened my alcohol, he mainly wanted to “discuss” the fact that I was a transvestite. I did not dispute my ex-lover’s claim, nor did I betray my own convictions. It was an odd scene – I don’t drink (anything), but on this occasion I drank as much as the other guy, simply to keep the conversation flowing. This constitutes my one and only time that I have talked about crossdressing with another man face-to-face, a homophobic, highly-polarized, opinionated, black-or-white kind of male, at that. I think the adrenaline coursing through my system deflected the effects of the alcohol, because I was lucid and in control of myself at all times. The drunken man directly across from me called me a “fag” repeatedly, even though he knew I had been the lover of his ex-wife (a woman). It didn’t matter. Since I WAS a transvestite, I HAD to be a “fag,” a homosexual, a queer, or whatever...

I assured the gentleman that I was most assuredly NOT a “fag,” but he wasn’t listening. He called me a “stinking” transvestite, but I assured him I was clean as a whistle. “I never liked you,” he said, “And now I know why – you’re a God-damned FAG!” BTW, my ex-lover also disclosed (to her ex-husband) that I had taken many artistic (trust me) nude photos of her during our relationship – he demanded that I show them to him, but I refused. I was thinking later that this might have provided evidence to countermand his claim that I was somehow homosexual – would a homosexual male want to take nude photos of his female lover? Hilarious, but it didn’t matter – I was a “fag,” since I was a transvestite, case closed. My drinking “buddy” even pictured in his mind how I might dress-up, based on his own perverse desires. He said, “I can see you in a bra and panties, with bright red lips, wearing high heels.” I suppressed a laugh, and then told him that I dress conservatively, going on to add that he would probably not be attracted to me...

“What do you mean?” he asked, and I told him that, since all transvestites (to him) are “fags,” and it follows I must be dressing to attract males, my style would not please HIM one little bit. He backed off after that – I think he scared himself. I began to understand just how stubborn the male mind can be, especially when it is marinated in ignorance – since my male “friend” had no point of reference for transvestism, other than what he had seen on TV (drag), heard from his peers, or had been implanted in his mind from day one in a homophobic “normal” household, he could not fathom how I could somehow be heterosexual, at least in regards to his ex-wife’s extramarital adventuring. It was sad and disappointing, yet revelatory and somewhat amusing, all at the same time. I felt sorry for him – he seemed very confused when we parted company later that evening...

I base a lot of my information regarding the unfair perceptions or connotations about crossdressing on memorable incidents like this, so I get rather “miffed” when someone (who should know better) passes along the misguided idea that all transvestites are engaged in same-sex attraction. Perhaps that is one definition that, at one time, was somewhat accurate, but a lot of water has passed under the bridge since then, and I feel we can safely dispense with such outmoded and disused concepts here in the 21st century. I believe I may have latent homosexual tendencies, and a bi-curious nature, but my own brand of transvestism was borne of my admiration for females and feminine characteristics. Not all women are the same (as I’ve learned the hard way), but I have tried to emulate those very human attributes that I find most often residing in the hearts, minds, and souls of females. Actually wearing female clothing, and feeling a difference that is always difficult to describe to non-believers, was the inevitable outcome of my effeminate, less-than-male persona...

Although my ex-girlfriend cheated on her husband, and then me, I learned a lot by being with her. Long after the crap hit the fan, and all the males in her life found out about each other, she called me up and reminisced tearfully about the happy times we shared – this was when I was living alone out here in Kansas, and she and I were both crying on the phone. I visited her a few years later, driving all the way back to Massachusetts for this long-delayed reunion. We had a wonderful time together, but she still did not want to talk about my crossdressing, turning away repeatedly when I tried to bring up the subject. Like all “normal” people, I think she also assumes that transvestites must be gay, or perverse – I played the role of MALE for her during our reunion, and nothing more was said about my curious “hobby.” Since then, I don my “gay” apparel in private, and you can call me GAY all you want, since I know I cannot change ossified opinions with words alone. Honestly, it doesn’t MATTER. Needless to say, being part of a adulterous love triangle is something I’m not proud of, and I’m still recuperating from this shattering experience. I’m pleased to report that all of the participants are alive and well, at least outwardly...

I wish to thank sissystephanie for the providing the post I quoted – I didn’t know how I was going to begin this piece, until I saw it (again, for the umpteenth time). I also wish to assure all homophobic individuals on this site that I do not wish to have “sexual relations” or “sexual purposes” with anyone who has a closed mind. You can rest easy, safe and secure in your own ignorance. You’re welcome...

Tell me, my finely dressed MtF crossdresser friends – don’t you think there’s room for more than one definition of TRANSVESTITE, other than the archaic one everybody* seems to fall back on? Thanks for reading...

*Let’s call them Americans... :doh:

[Karren H]

Fah la la.. Fah la la.... La la la... There was a cartoon I saw once with a crossdresser getting dressed at Christmas time with that as the title..

[DebbieL]

I always find the definition in the quote offensive, and inaccurate. It assumes that the ONLY reason a man would wear women's clothing would be for sexual gratification (ejaculation). Yet nearly ALL of those posting to this forum describe activities that are far beyond immediate sexual gratification. Most have clearly stated that their dressing provide emotional satisfaction and is an expression of sexual IDENTITY rather than preference.

Many are gay, but many are also heterosexual.

Ironically, women who dress in clothing that has traditionally been "male" clothing, such as long pant, flat shoes, and loose fitting shirts made out of thicker fabrics like Flannel or thick cotton weave are never assumed to be doing it for "Sexual Gratification".

When it comes to fashion, most men's wear is the rejects from women's wear. If it's so ugly that women won't buy it, you can always whack off the heel or the darts or pleats and sell it to men.

Men's clothing is designed to hide the shape, hide weapons, drugs, wallets, and electronic devices. Coats, shirts, and jackets are loose fitting and loaded with large deep pockets. Even shorts are loose and usually hang well below the knees.

But wanting to wear clothes that display a body that is nicely shaped as a result of diet, exercise, and shape-wear is obviously exclusively for immediate sexual gratification and no other reason.

[DebbieL]

Fah la la.. Fah la la.... La la la... There was a cartoon I saw once with a crossdresser getting dressed at Christmas time with that as the title..

It's probably as old as the term gay. I remember seeing it in Playboy back around 1968. It's probably 10 years older than that.
Going back to holiday season with Milton Berle.

[Elizabeth Ann]

Fah la la.. Fah la la.... La la la... There was a cartoon I saw once with a crossdresser getting dressed at Christmas time with that as the title..

I'm a little thick headed this morning. I don't get it.
Liz

[Kaitlyn26]

Sounds like you got a crash course in how to avoid trouble in the future. ;)

[Miss Maxine]

Everything I do is for sexual purposes. Everything. In male mode and in female. It boggles the mind.

[Karren H]

I'm a little thick headed this morning. I don't get it.
Liz

Lol. Sing "Deck the Halls"

[Debra Russell]

Frederique I always pause and take a breath before reading one of your posts -- but never dissapointed yet, thanks for posting your experience...............Debra

.........and Karren -- that cartoon tells it all!!

[Anne2345]

Thank you, Freddy, for taking the time to compose and submit a confession of your own. Now that wasn't so hard, was it? :heehee:


Tell me, my finely dressed MtF crossdresser friends – don’t you think there’s room for more than one definition of TRANSVESTITE, other than the archaic one everybody* seems to fall back on?

There should be room for more than one definition of "tranvestite." Or at least a broader definition that encompasses more than just a sub-group of the whole. But the question is will the non-believers back away from the unfair and ignorantly bestowed negative connotation they have created and imparted upon the word? I do not see that happening anytime in the near future. But in here, in this forum, we should all know better.


Since then, I don my “gay” apparel in private, and you can call me GAY all you want, since I know I cannot change ossified opinions with words alone. Honestly, it doesn’t MATTER.

Indeed. It does not matter. And in the event that it does matter, or should matter, can anyone please explain to me why it matters? I will entertain analytical, coherent, and circumspect arguments only, before I dismiss the same as flawed and of no legitimate substance. :eek:


I always find the definition in the quote offensive, and inaccurate. It assumes that the ONLY reason a man would wear women's clothing would be for sexual gratification (ejaculation). Yet nearly ALL of those posting to this forum describe activities that are far beyond immediate sexual gratification. Most have clearly stated that their dressing provide emotional satisfaction and is an expression of sexual IDENTITY rather than preference.

Very well stated, Debbie. Except that for me, as a staunchly devoted and ardent crossdresser, it is not so much an expression of my sexual identity, as it is an expression of my personal identity. ;)

Not that there is anything wrong with also incorporating one's sexual identity into the mix . . . . :battingeyelashes:

[JamieG]

I don't want to put words into Sissy Stephanie's mouth, but I think when people say that "transvestites dress for sexual purposes" I think they are referring to transvestic fetishism. This would not presume that you are gay, only that you find dressing to be erotic and may require it for sexual function. This might entail self-eroticism, or be with a partner either gay or heterosexual. That said, I imagine you, and many of us, are not happy with those assumptions either.

However, I think your story does a good job of illustrating how the unwashed (and unscented ;-) ) masses view us. If you've never met an out-of-the-closet crossdresser, why would you think the sterotypes are wrong?

By the way, going to the man's house to talk to him seemed like a very dangerous thing to do. Given the hatred he was spewing at you, it sounds like you're lucky to have escaped without violence.

[Karren H]

.........and Karren -- that cartoon tells it all!!

Wish I could find that online...

Actually the rest of the song has some pretty powerful hidden meanings!!!

Follow me in merry measure, (lets go get dressed up)
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
While I tell of Yule tide treasure, (head to the mall for those after Christmas clearence on pretty dresses)
Fa la la la la, la la la la.

:D

[CamillaCD]

I don't like Sissystephanie's sweeping statement at all. To me the terms has the same meaning. In fact, in Norway (and I am pretty sure this goes for the other Nordic countries too) we have only one word, transvestite. To say that all Nordic Tgirls crossdress for sexual purposes is a bit far fetched.

[Elizabeth Ann]

Fah la la.. Fah la la.... La la la... There was a cartoon I saw once with a crossdresser getting dressed at Christmas time with that as the title..


I'm a little thick headed this morning. I don't get it.
Liz


Lol. Sing "Deck the Halls"

Oh! Right. Or as my daughter would say, well duh!

Liz

[SusanLCD]

There must be some way to express the crossdressing aspect without including sexual feelings. Let's see....

- I find experiencing the world as Susan to be exciting (oops! I guess that won't do it.)
- When Susan is prettied up, I love how she.... (oops! Can't say love.)
- Susan has a fantastic view of the wo..... (nope. Can't involve fantasy.)
- Susan's fashion options are much more gay than ... (uh-uh. Probably went even farther afield for homophobics, there.)

I guess she's right. I can't separate the crossdressing from the sexual connotation when the listener insists on seeing them. Regardless whether they are there or not.

Oh well. Does this mean I'm banished to the closet? (That's a LOT better than "go to your room.")

[NicoleScott]

Tell me, my finely dressed MtF crossdresser friends – don’t you think there’s room for more than one definition of TRANSVESTITE, other than the archaic one everybody* seems to fall back on?

Apparently, Stephanie is confused. She said "there is only one real definition for the word Transvestite", and it's dressing for sexual purposes. In another post, Stephanie said that it's dressing for the purpose of having sex with a partner of the same sex, and in still another post it is if while dressed you make out with a person of the same sex. Frederique, you may think there's room for more than one definition, but Stephanie thinks there's only one (but which one?)

Sure, Frederique, there is room for more than one definition, but not to the extent that everybody uses the one that suits only them. When that happens, we fail to communicate. That's why we have dictionaries. They show commonly used definitions of words, usually in order of most commonly used.

We still haven't resolved the different uses of the word "transgendered". To some, it's the umbrella term, and to others, it's the more specific type of crossdresser who has an internal feminine identity, and may (or may not) dress to express that femininity. Maybe we need a new word. Or else we'll just stay confused.

[Andi.Devine]

when people say that "transvestites dress for sexual purposes" I think they are referring to transvestic fetishism.


Apparently it is not limited to Transvestite or Transvestism on what the proper definition might be.


Transvestic Fetishism
SYMPTOMS
Over a period of at least 6 months, in a heterosexual male, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving cross-dressing.

The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.


Back to Transvestite:

Magnus Hirschfeld believed that transvestites differed in their focus of pleasure, that it was on themselves, especially on themselves in their clothes

It appears that there may be many sub-categories of Transvestism, one of which most likely being "Cross-Dresser".

Transvestite should not be considered a negative term, but unfortunately over the years it has become such.

Just my thoughts..

-KD

[*Vanessa*]

Sounds like you got a crash course in how to avoid trouble in the future. ;)

Dido!

They call it evolution for a reason.

[carhill2mn]

Don we now our GAY apparel
Originally Posted by sissystephanie
“There is only one real definition for the word Transvestite!! That definition is; A person who dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex for sexual purposes!! And that definition is the same all over the world!! Anybody on this forum can certainly call themselves anything they want (as long as it is legal!), but at least be accurate in your definitions!! Those of you who call themselves Transvestites are more likely just crossdressers like me!!”

I have some problems with the above quote. This definition of the word "transvestite" is a very old one from some old (and
not too informative or accurate) medical/psychological journals. It is true that the word "transvestite" is used around the world to describe wearing clothes of the opposite sex; that is its literal meaning. "Crossdresser" is used more often in the United States.

Similarily, the use of the word "gay" in "Don we now our gay apparel" from one of our Christmas songs was perfectly acceptable until "gay" came to mean "homosexual" rather than "fun, happy, fancy", etc.

[LeaP]

Of course there's room, but why bother trying to rejuvenate a term with such a negative history and loaded connotations ... all of which your story amply illustrates? It will go nowhere. It's already perverse enough that we have people in this forum, of all places, giving a "real definition" which isn't.

Lea

[Miss Maxine]

Of course there's room, but why bother trying to rejuvenate a term with such a negative history and loaded connotations ... all of which your story amply illustrates? It will go nowhere. It's already perverse enough that we have people in this forum, of all places, giving a "real definition" which isn't.

Lea

Then why crossdress? Why come out as gay? History is not made or changed by people who are willing to accept negativity.

[drushin703]

Frederique:
I was out clubbing last saturday and an older man came up to me, grabbed my hand and planted a kiss on my neck. Even though I AM the transvestite
that dresses for sexual purposes I do not consider myself gay, NO NOT EVEN A LITTLE TINY BIT.It sure is complecated for me to understand, especially considering
my personal presentation.Usually a short skirt or dress, always hose, always makeup and tall heels, always perfume, always a long flowing wig, hips swaying.
It must be hard as hell for someone else to understand what my intentions are based on how I look, or in many ways act.A person doesn"t always come
in contact with one of us so your ex giving away your secret, especially to another man (is evil) never helps the tranny definition.I applaud your courage.

Enfemme I like to be kissed and like my hand to be held......dana

[2B Natasha]

Funny you should write this. I was just last night having this discussion with my SO. Why I chose to call myself a Transvestite and not a crossdresser and what those terms mean today as opposed to yesterday. BTW. I chose to be called a Transvestite because I think the word crossdresser is quite ugly to say. Just doesn't roll off the tongue as nicely, does it. I rarely have a sexual urge when dressed, but it has happened.

Anyway. After explaining the differences from a dictionary point of view to her. Man is she a patient woman. I stated that we are all by definition transvestites and also crosssdressers. at the same time.

I believe, and so does she. That there is a sexual element in almost everything that we do. Every stitch of clothing that we put on. How we comb are hair etc etc etc.All are suble touches to impress either your friends or attached the attention of your lover or A lover. Where you have trouble is slicing that very thin piece of pie we have. We as a group are a minority as it is to the wider world. There are no hard and fast %'s of us but they must be fairly small. But I would hazard to guess that the line that we draw to call ourselves Crossdressers or Tranvestites or Drag Queens or Drag Kings or whatever Whether there is a sexual element in what we do. Changes on a day to day or on an hour to hour basis. It may even change depending on who is standing in front of them. So to say one is a Transvestite or a crossdressers is only a very brief label we put on ourselves at the very time we are speaking or thinking. To make a hard and fast rule that you are just a crossdresser is to put yourself in jeopardy of lying. But if you say " Heck ya, I do it for the sexual turn on ". with me or with a play partner then perhaps you are safer, but never completely correct. Once again I would hazard to guess at one point or another it was a case of getting dressed up just for the heck of it. Non sexual.

[LeaP]

Then why crossdress? Why come out as gay? History is not made or changed by people who are willing to accept negativity.

It's not a matter of willingness to accept negativity as it is simply recognizing reality. The gay community didn't embrace "homosexual," "fag," or any number of other terms, slang or not. They took on "gay" - a lesser used, less loaded term and made it theirs over decades of ferocious activism.

It IS possible to embrace a loaded, perjorative term(in the argot sense). But consider the reality. Assuming the tiny numbers of TG/CD people who are out actually engage in enough activist activity to make a dent in the public's usage, what will have been accomplished? Essentially nothing.

TransvestITE connotes identity in a strong fashion due to its construction. Moreover, its similarity to "transgender" and "transsexual" hampers differentiating these for the general public. Crossdresser rings relatively neutral vis-a-vis identity in part due to its softer ending, which, while it can connote identity, as much connotes activity. The English word "dress" helps here as well, while "vest ite" (to English-speaking ears, anyway) conveys nothing similar. I doubt many people jump to the notion of dressing from "vest." I go immediately to the Latin root, but then, I had 4 years of Latin.

On history: Defending the ramparts isn't progress. That requires action on a positive agenda.

Vestis virum reddit (feminae, apparently!)

Lea

[kimdl93]

i don't think think the real point of Freddy's post is todebate definitions. My take away is that for some people I any divergence from the "norm" pf gender identification is presumed as gay. In her example
both her lover and the ex made the same assumption. And both exhibited the same venal attitude ..like calling someone fag was the worst possible insult. . Sadly that reflects much of the intolerance we face out there.

[Tina B.]

Lea, I made that leap. from Vest-ite to dressing, as I've said before, in my day the word Transvestite, was not in the dictionary, at least not the old one I had. So I looked up the word Trans -to cross over, as in trans Atlantic, then I looked up vestite, found nothing, so I looked up vest, and all of it's meanings, Vest -an article of clothing. I remembered from high school, ite showed something was doing something, so cross an article of clothing, Wow cross dress, that's what you call what I had been doing all my life. I'm a Transvestite, it has a name, it's not just me. I've always had a fond feeling for the word myself. It's funny, our sisters across the pond don't seem to have a problem with the word, not even the ones that are happily married, and don't seem to be gay (not that theres anything wrong with it). I considered myself to be a transvestite, way before I ever heard anyone actually use the term cross dresser. As far as sex goes, I've found it's about the same drive no matter how I'm dressed, more about how long since sex.
Tina B.

[LeaP]

Tina, you missed my point. It's not about etymology, but current usage and connotation.

Many here like the term. Some based on it's supposedly pure meaning, though even the originator thought it problematic. Some (my interpretation) almost as a badge of insider honor, ala the n-word among some African Americans. Still others would reclaim the term, though they recognize the current usage issues. A few embrace the overloaded aspects of the term, including it's sexual connotations.

Well, have at it. I crossdress. In a very limited identity sense I may be characterized as a crossdresser. I definitely don't "transvest" (English non-sequitur)! and I'm assuredly none of the other things people ascribe to transvestites. It's become a perfectly repugnant concept to most people (in the US anyway).

Changes in language are normal. Psychiatric usage and concepts evolve constantly with changes in culture and scientific understanding. It seems reasonable to do the same.

Lea

[Frédérique]

I’m sure everyone is familiar with Eddie Izzard, or at least aware of him? Well, I dug out my DVD of his 1998 concert in San Francisco, Dress To Kill to replay what he says. At the beginning of the show, he states the following:

“If you’re a transvestite, you’re actually a male tomboy – that’s where the sexuality is. This is not drag queen – no, gay men have got that covered. This is male tomboy. And people do get them mixed up – they put transvestite there [in with drag queen]. No, no, no – a little bit of a crowbar separation, thank you, and gay men I think would agree. It’s male lesbian – that’s where it is. It’s true, because most transvestites fancy girls, or fancy women, so that’s where it [the sexuality] is.”

Keep in mind that Mr. Izzard was in San Francisco, a rather cosmopolitan city in the U.S., and he had to explain what a transvestite is, probably to put certain people at ease so they could enjoy his show. This is America, and people have a problem with the word ”transvestite.” Of course, the fact that Eddie is English works against him, and most Americans will never hear what he has to say. It’s sad, but that’s how it is – I have a sister who cannot “hear” anything a person from the UK says, no matter how clearly they speak, because they are foreign, or non-American, and thus suspect (in her mind). Izzard also says (famously), “I come from Europe, where the history is!” cultured people will laugh (because it’s true), but most Americans will never hear him speak, or care what he has to say, or dismiss him without a second thought…

Just imagine – here’s a gentleman who IS a transvestite, TELLING you what a transvestite is, at least what type of transvestite HE is, and an obstinate crossdresser in America won’t listen, because he does not choose to listen. So, the idea of ALL transvestites being homosexual, and dressing to somehow accentuate effeminacy in a gay context, is perpetuated and not challenged. I don’t know about you, but when I hear a real tranny speak about the whys and wherefores of his personal expression, something akin to what I do, I sit up and take notice. Hmmm…Eddie Izzard says he fancies girls, and then I see him WITH numerous females between gigs. How can that be, when ALL transvestites are gay? When I first began to crossdress I went through a brief period of confusion, wondering if I was a closeted gay male. That lasted only five minutes. Luckily I wasn’t aware of the homophobic stigmas that cling to the word “transvestite” for no good reason…

You know, I often tell about the time I was on another crossdressing site, much like this one, in the UK. The word “crossdressing” was not in the title of the place, and most of the MtF Cd’ers referred to each other as “tranny.” I like the term very much – it’s cuddly! Since I prefer to see myself as a transvestite, and I like English everything, I liked the place. Being among other crossdressers who quite naturally embraced the word transvestite was enlightening, and every form of sexuality was on display - I’ve been there, I’ve seen it, and I’ve discussed it ad nauseum. Guess what? You CAN be a transvestite and be heterosexual – you can also be a male homosexual, asexual, bisexual, transsexual or pansexual and wear women’s clothing for pleasure. The terms transvestite and crossdresser can be interchangeable if need be, but don’t tell me there is only ONE definition for anything, OK?


I don't want to put words into Sissy Stephanie's mouth, but I think when people say that "transvestites dress for sexual purposes" I think they are referring to transvestic fetishism. This would not presume that you are gay, only that you find dressing to be erotic and may require it for sexual function. This might entail self-eroticism, or be with a partner either gay or heterosexual.

About two years ago there was a discussion about the word transvestite, and Stephanie posted very similar thoughts, quite clearly stating the homosexual “angle” I referred to. I mean, you’re allowed to state your opinion on this site, but the whole thing read like, “I wish to disassociate myself from any connection with homosexuality, so I prefer the term crossdresser.” Fine, but I feel that polarized, homophobic mindset is out of place on a site like this, and out of touch with reality as well. I got very upset at the time, and the same tired old opinion, or definition, gets trotted out each and every time the word transvestite is discussed. It’s both frustrating and exasperating. The fact that there are highly visible heterosexual transvestites (see above) out there trying to educate others in regards to this extremely misunderstood human "activity" (for lack of a better word) is heartening, but some people just don’t care. Oddly enough, I’ve heard the exact same definition of “crossdresser” that the above-mentioned individual uses for “transvestite,” so both words can have numerous interpretations. BTW, “sexual purposes” and sexual stimulation (or sexual function) are two different reasons to crossdress. I do neither, yet I am very much a transvestite, so go figure…


Back to Transvestite:Magnus Hirschfeld believed that transvestites differed in their focus of pleasure, that it was on themselves, especially on themselves in their clothes. It appears that there may be many sub-categories of Transvestism, one of which most likely being "Cross-Dresser".

I’m VERY glad to see that SOMEONE else has read the Magnus Hirschfeld book… :):thumbsup:

[Miss Maxine]

I’m sure everyone is familiar with Eddie Izzard, or at least aware of him? Well, I dug out my DVD of his 1998 concert in San Francisco, Dress To Kill to replay what he says. At the beginning of the show, he states the following:

“If you’re a transvestite, you’re actually a male tomboy – that’s where the sexuality is. This is not drag queen – no, gay men have got that covered. This is male tomboy. And people do get them mixed up – they put transvestite there [in with drag queen]. No, no, no – a little bit of a crowbar separation, thank you, and gay men I think would agree. It’s male lesbian – that’s where it is. It’s true, because most transvestites fancy girls, or fancy women, so that’s where it [the sexuality] is.”

Keep in mind that Mr. Izzard was in San Francisco, a rather cosmopolitan city in the U.S., and he had to explain what a transvestite is, probably to put certain people at ease so they could enjoy his show. This is America, and people have a problem with the word ”transvestite.” Of course, the fact that Eddie is English works against him, and most Americans will never hear what he has to say. It’s sad, but that’s how it is – I have a sister who cannot “hear” anything a person from the UK says, no matter how clearly they speak, because they are foreign, or non-American, and thus suspect (in her mind). Izzard also says (famously), “I come from Europe, where the history is!” cultured people will laugh (because it’s true), but most Americans will never hear him speak, or care what he has to say, or dismiss him without a second thought…

Just imagine – here’s a gentleman who IS a transvestite, TELLING you what a transvestite is, at least what type of transvestite HE is, and an obstinate crossdresser in America won’t listen, because he does not choose to listen. So, the idea of ALL transvestites being homosexual, and dressing to somehow accentuate effeminacy in a gay context, is perpetuated and not challenged. I don’t know about you, but when I hear a real tranny speak about the whys and wherefores of his personal expression, something akin to what I do, I sit up and take notice. Hmmm…Eddie Izzard says he fancies girls, and then I see him WITH numerous females between gigs. How can that be, when ALL transvestites are gay? When I first began to crossdress I went through a brief period of confusion, wondering if I was a closeted gay male. That lasted only five minutes. Luckily I wasn’t aware of the homophobic stigmas that cling to the word “transvestite” for no good reason…

You know, I often tell about the time I was on another crossdressing site, much like this one, in the UK. The word “crossdressing” was not in the title of the place, and most of the MtF Cd’ers referred to each other as “tranny.” I like the term very much – it’s cuddly! Since I prefer to see myself as a transvestite, and I like English everything, I liked the place. Being among other crossdressers who quite naturally embraced the word transvestite was enlightening, and every form of sexuality was on display - I’ve been there, I’ve seen it, and I’ve discussed it ad nauseum. Guess what? You CAN be a transvestite and be heterosexual – you can also be a male homosexual, asexual, bisexual, transsexual or pansexual and wear women’s clothing for pleasure. The terms transvestite and crossdresser can be interchangeable if need be, but don’t tell me there is only ONE definition for anything, OK?



About two years ago there was a discussion about the word transvestite, and Stephanie posted very similar thoughts, quite clearly stating the homosexual “angle” I referred to. I mean, you’re allowed to state your opinion on this site, but the whole thing read like, “I wish to disassociate myself from any connection with homosexuality, so I prefer the term crossdresser.” Fine, but I feel that polarized, homophobic mindset is out of place on a site like this, and out of touch with reality as well. I got very upset at the time, and the same tired old opinion, or definition, gets trotted out each and every time the word transvestite is discussed. It’s both frustrating and exasperating. The fact that there are highly visible heterosexual transvestites (see above) out there trying to educate others in regards to this extremely misunderstood human "activity" (for lack of a better word) is heartening, but some people just don’t care. Oddly enough, I’ve heard the exact same definition of “crossdresser” that the above-mentioned individual uses for “transvestite,” so both words can have numerous interpretations. BTW, “sexual purposes” and sexual stimulation (or sexual function) are two different reasons to crossdress. I do neither, yet I am very much a transvestite, so go figure…



I’m VERY glad to see that SOMEONE else has read the Magnus Hirschfeld book… :):thumbsup:

I've been waiting for someone to mention Eddie. Thank you very much. Give my regards to Mrs. Badcrumble and Mr. Dog.

[Rachael Ray]

Fah la la.. Fah la la.... La la la... There was a cartoon I saw once with a crossdresser getting dressed at Christmas time with that as the title..

It was in Playboy Magazine.........

[Kaitlyn26]

For some reason when I see this thread title I get a mental image of a fireman wearing a t-shirt with GAY printed on it, putting on his tights and girlie clothes over his real clothes and rushing to someone's rescue.

[Miss Maxine]

For some reason when I see this thread title I get a mental image of a fireman wearing a t-shirt with GAY printed on it, putting on his tights and girlie clothes over his real clothes and rushing to someone's rescue.

Those were the good ole days...

[LeaP]

"... when I hear a REAL [emphasis mine - Lea] tranny speak ... I sit up and take notice."

Good grief - what MUST you think of us? Perhaps one must also be a comedian and who knows what else, in addition to being out, to qualify as real.

I'll note in passing, between pinches reassuring myself of my reality, that Izzard is a Brit, and the word does not carry the same connotations there.

Oh, and I fail to see how an appeal to a strawman authority advances substantive discourse.

Lea (really, truly)

[Frédérique]

Good grief - what MUST you think of us? Perhaps one must also be a comedian and who knows what else, in addition to being out, to qualify as real. I'll note in passing, between pinches reassuring myself of my reality, that Izzard is a Brit, and the word does not carry the same connotations there. Oh, and I fail to see how an appeal to a strawman authority advances substantive discourse.

Yes, yes, YES. I was sure someone would choke on the word “real,” but I was NOT trolling. I meant a highly visible transvestite, who, under the cloak of comedy, is trying to educate his audience. Some will take note of what he says (such as other crossdressers, etc.), but many will never hear him. I think it’s extremely unfair to call the gentleman in question a “strawman,” however, since most trannies will never be in such a position, meaning having an opportunity to INFORM in a public setting…

What must I think of US, meaning you? Well, when some people go to great lengths to pick at everything I write, and completely ignore my well-reasoned OP’s (or responses), I tend to wonder why I bother writing these things, but then I realize that it takes courage to lay one’s thoughts in front of mixed company. I know a lot of gentle, caring, compassionate, inspiring and REAL people on this site who would never address me in the body of the forum so brusquely – do you think I’m purposely trying to agitate everyone? I find it amusing that my critics rarely post their own original thoughts, preferring to take aim at the ones who do – it’s also quite obvious that many people around here do not possess a sense of humor, or understand a “play on words” when they see one. The fact that YOU dismiss Mr. Izzard as a mere comedian is telling in this regard, and the act of doing so prevents substantive discourse. Thanks for killing the thread…
:straightface:

[Kaitlyn26]

Yes, yes, YES. I was sure someone would choke on the word “real,” but I was NOT trolling. I meant a highly visible transvestite, who, under the cloak of comedy, is trying to educate his audience. Some will take note of what he says (such as other crossdressers, etc.), but many will never hear him. I think it’s extremely unfair to call the gentleman in question a “strawman,” however, since most trannies will never be in such a position, meaning having an opportunity to INFORM in a public setting…

What must I think of US, meaning you? Well, when some people go to great lengths to pick at everything I write, and completely ignore my well-reasoned OP’s (or responses), I tend to wonder why I bother writing these things, but then I realize that it takes courage to lay one’s thoughts in front of mixed company. I know a lot of gentle, caring, compassionate, inspiring and REAL people on this site who would never address me in the body of the forum so brusquely – do you think I’m purposely trying to agitate everyone? I find it amusing that my critics rarely post their own original thoughts, preferring to take aim at the ones who do – it’s also quite obvious that many people around here do not possess a sense of humor, or understand a “play on words” when they see one. The fact that YOU dismiss Mr. Izzard as a mere comedian is telling in this regard, and the act of doing so prevents substantive discourse. Thanks for killing the thread…
:straightface:

To be honest I found the read slightly boring. I was in a very similar situation 4 years ago, we even had the discussion on *drum roll* his balcony. I told you we were similar. The biggest difference between mine and yours, would be that she fancied herself a temptress, and only started the relationship because she has the belief that she should try to hurt or "mess with" anyone she deems a bad person. It kind of went into the fan when she fell in love with me though, because I was not the person she thought I was. ;) She realized that her "soul mate" was a guy with some massive problems. It's amazing how being alone with someone without any other friends can jade your perspective on what is right and what is wrong. She ended up leaving him and going off on her own and eventually back to school, to get her life together. Wouldn't you know it, tranny to the rescue!

Reading your posts for me is not pointless though. It serves as a good window into what/who I may have become, or could still become. As far as me learning much from a post about something that was so similar to my own experience, probably not learning much about what you actually covered. ;) Old hat is old, for me.

[Toni Citara]

That's the driving force behind many people, myself included. Sure I watch what I eat and work out to stay healthy and live a longer life, but honestly - I want to look good for the ladies!! Or, gurls? LOL


Everything I do is for sexual purposes. Everything. In male mode and in female. It boggles the mind.

[Miss Maxine]

That's the driving force behind many people, myself included. Sure I watch what I eat and work out to stay healthy and live a longer life, but honestly - I want to look good for the ladies!! Or, gurls? LOL

LOL! High five! ^_^

[Andi.Devine]

Well, when some people go to great lengths to pick at everything I write, and completely ignore my well-reasoned OP’s (or responses), I tend to wonder why I bother writing these things..

Keep posting Frédérique! I love reading your words, they are usually quite interesting and very thought provoking. Especially this topic, it is hard to belive how differently everyone interprets the meaning of transvestite and how crossdressing relates to it..

So worldly coming from a Kansas girl! :battingeyelashes:

-KD

[Stacy L]

.




Ok, now I’m confused, am I a Crossvestite or a transdresser? :doh:

Like reading your post Frédérique keep it up. :)




.

[Miss Maxine]

.




Ok, now I’m confused, am I a Crossvestite or a transdresser? :doh:

Like reading your post Frédérique keep it up. :)




.

A religous person once called me a transgressor. Hmm...

[Stacy L]

A religous person once called me a transgressor. Hmm...


I think I may be one of those too! :devil:





.

[valerie_vanesse]

Freddi, With all due respect, All of your posts are deep and reflective. I find them a chore to read and frankly am not in the turmoil you must find yourself in. I am 60 years young and have been a crossdresser, TV, Queen, etc ad nauseum for 45 of those years. I have saved myself a bit of angst and guilt by not over analyzing. I enjoy being Valerie and DO NOT CARE about the peripherals or correct definitions of my "dysfunction" (another label)!
Please enjoy yourself if you can, otherwise you may be in for a ton of inner problems. Life is short, hard to survive, and must be happy, not morose.

[Kaitlyn26]

Freddi, With all due respect, All of your posts are deep and reflective. I find them a chore to read and frankly am not in the turmoil you must find yourself in. I am 60 years young and have been a crossdresser, TV, Queen, etc ad nauseum for 45 of those years. I have saved myself a bit of angst and guilt by not over analyzing. I enjoy being Valerie and DO NOT CARE about the peripherals or correct definitions of my "dysfunction" (another label)!
Please enjoy yourself if you can, otherwise you may be in for a ton of inner problems. Life is short, hard to survive, and must be happy, not morose.

I can agree with that too. Maybe that's what I meant to say. Idk. :p

[LeaP]

Yes, yes, YES. I was sure someone would choke on the word “real,” but I was NOT trolling. I meant a highly visible transvestite, who, under the cloak of comedy, is trying to educate his audience. Some will take note of what he says (such as other crossdressers, etc.), but many will never hear him. I think it’s extremely unfair to call the gentleman in question a “strawman,” however, since most trannies will never be in such a position, meaning having an opportunity to INFORM in a public setting…

What must I think of US, meaning you? Well, when some people go to great lengths to pick at everything I write, and completely ignore my well-reasoned OP’s (or responses), I tend to wonder why I bother writing these things, but then I realize that it takes courage to lay one’s thoughts in front of mixed company. I know a lot of gentle, caring, compassionate, inspiring and REAL people on this site who would never address me in the body of the forum so brusquely – do you think I’m purposely trying to agitate everyone? I find it amusing that my critics rarely post their own original thoughts, preferring to take aim at the ones who do – it’s also quite obvious that many people around here do not possess a sense of humor, or understand a “play on words” when they see one. The fact that YOU dismiss Mr. Izzard as a mere comedian is telling in this regard, and the act of doing so prevents substantive discourse. Thanks for killing the thread…
:straightface:

The argument is a strawman, not the gentleman. Logic 101 - see appeals to authority.

"US" vs "you" - Us as in the not on the world stage. If you like, the closeted. Doesn't really matter.

Do I think you're trying to agitate? I can't really say, as I don't know you and the nature of forums like this, of course, introduce all the usual distortions of intent. I can say this - your post has provoked a lot of responses as to your mindset and motives. You might consider that style matters. If the play on words was the "real" bit, I still miss the play, to be frank. And, of course, you might want to extend me the same interpretational courtesy and leeway that you essentially plead for yourself.

Izzard has described himself as a standup comic. He is described that way by the press. I never described him as a "mere" anything. And finally, what I was actually soliciting (yes) was what you really meant by "real." (You answered, clearly, in your reply.) You've missed the point by focusing only on the reference to Izzard, who, by the way, I neither dismissed nor dismiss. Re-read the line.

On the troll: When one posts, subsequent to an arguably inflammatory statement, that one knew it would provoke a reaction ("sure someone would choke"), that, my friend fully, completely, and totally qualifies as a troll, disclaimer notwithstanding. Exulting ("yes, yes, YES") doesn't help your case.

On being genuine: I agree. I've also made an attempt to be so, generally and in this thread - certainly in my earlier responses and in this one. I appreciate your intent. Your writing style, not so much.

On killing the thread: Seems not.

Back to your question in the OP. I'll go back along the lines of my original response, as well as a similar one in another thread. I see no reason to try to breathe life into a wheezing, dying corpse of a word*.

Lea

*in America

[JulieK1980]

I have saved myself a bit of angst and guilt by not over analyzing.

I question why analyzing or "over" analyzing leads to angst and guilt. For myself it is quite contrary, my search to understand myself has brought nothing but joy, and a deep satisfaction with who I am as a person. If anything, understanding, (or at least attempting to understand,) has removed any guilt.


Me, I dress for pleasure. Not necessarily sexual pleasure, but pleasure none the less. Human beings are pleasure seeking individuals at our core, it drives us in everything we do. Sexual pleasure is a big portion of that drive but, it would be a mistake to quantify that as a sole driving force in anything for most people.

[Sophie86]

It was an interesting story, Frédérique, but did you have to end it on such a combative note? It's a mood ill-suited to the holiday season when all should be merry and gay.

[LeaP]

A religous person once called me a transgressor. Hmm...

That's really quite funny. I may use this one!

Lea

[SarahLynn]

It was an interesting story, Frédérique, but did you have to end it on such a combative note? It's a mood ill-suited to the holiday season when all should be merry and gay.

Dear Sophie, I refuse to be Mary or Gay, I am SarahLynn and shall remain so until I chose to change, so please do not call me Mary or Gay.


Tell me, my finely dressed MtF crossdresser friends – don’t you think there’s room for more than one definition of TRANSVESTITE, other than the archaic one everybody* seems to fall back on? Thanks for reading...

Most asuredly there is, however because of the homophobic nature of language and the perception of "personal and private" bedroom activities of those few transvestites who identify as drag queens and the open confessions of some of them, the perception of most Americans of the United States is that all transvestites are homosexuals. We (those of us who frequent this site) know and acknowledge many of the varied reasons for wearing clothes of the opposite sex. And we know there are perhaps more than we know and acknowledge. I believe for this reason this site is known as a Crossdressers Forum and not a Transvestite forum. I believe to call this a Transvestite Forum would carry all the negative connotations associated with that title. It's a pity really that crossdressing carries such a negitive stigma but we (most of us here) do our very best to disassociate ourselve from the drag-queen example of what a crossdresser is to the general public. We are to be commended for setting a good example before the general public.

Now, if only we could get Karren to wear girly jeans we'd have much better luck in the perception of the general public that we are mainstream.:tongueout:heehee::heehee:

[Barbara Dugan]

I still love being a Gay Transvestite sometimes I do some crossdressing just for fun:doh:

[Frédérique]

Freddi, With all due respect, All of your posts are deep and reflective. I find them a chore to read and frankly am not in the turmoil you must find yourself in. I have saved myself a bit of angst and guilt by not over analyzing.

I assure you I am NOT in any kind of “turmoil.” I just write these things to relax, and explore the many ways that crossdressing is perceived by society. I don’t feel I’m over-analyzing anything; in fact my aim is to generate discussion or “sideways” thinking. I do not possess an ounce of angst or guilt, but I get very worked up when one of my peers generalizes about CD/TV terms…
:straightface:


It was an interesting story, Frédérique, but did you have to end it on such a combative note? It's a mood ill-suited to the holiday season when all should be merry and gay.

What holiday season are you referring to? I only “sound” combative when the same person pokes me with a pointed stick (post) for the umpteenth time, and, if I feel like it, I will respond with candor. I would prefer to respond only to positive replies in a purely feminine manner, but these things happen. As far as the OP is concerned, what can I say? I don't like closed minds. Some people around here don't like to have their MtF crossdressing associated with homosexuality - I call that closed with a capital "C."


…the perception of most Americans of the United States is that all transvestites are homosexuals. We (those of us who frequent this site) know and acknowledge many of the varied reasons for wearing clothes of the opposite sex. And we know there are perhaps more than we know and acknowledge. I believe for this reason this site is known as a Crossdressers Forum and not a Transvestite forum. I believe to call this a Transvestite Forum would carry all the negative connotations associated with that title. It's a pity really that crossdressing carries such a negitive stigma but we (most of us here) do our very best to disassociate ourselve from the drag-queen example of what a crossdresser is to the general public. We are to be commended for setting a good example before the general public.

I was thinking that if this place was called “Transvestites Dot Com,” most Americans would avoid it like the plague! I get upset when negative stereotypes are trotted out HERE, where they do not belong, and, even after the word (or term) “transvestite” has been discussed from all possible angles, until we’re all blue in the breasts, the same people will feel the same way about it! In this scenario, I wonder what the purpose of discussion is – is it so hard to say “Oh, I see your point,” and modify one’s intractable stance for the benefit of all concerned? I actually see this happen now and then, and I will (of course) submit to superior knowledge from my peers, in fact this is why I came here – to learn by discussion…

What if a newbie comes along, shyly and nervously, not really knowing what to make of this desire to wear women’s clothing? This is the best place I know to get answers, but what if a new member encounters this bias against the word transvestite, or confusion about the term “crossdresser,” and the persistent homosexual connotations scare the person away? I mean, there’s nothing to be scared about, but I would like to see a more flexible approach to definitions, rather than a “this-or-that, no further discussion” kind of mindset. The homosexual male of 50-70 years ago and the homosexual male of today couldn’t be less dissimilar, so I think an overhaul is due for the term “transvestite.” Effeminacy is not exclusive to homosexuality, and anyone that thinks it is lives in the past…

[Kaitlyn26]

Too long. Want to get your word out? Make shorter and add humor. Write for your audience. I wouldn't mind reading your post, if it weren't on a forum. But it is, and it's a long read for a forum. ;)

If writing relaxes you, write an e-book.

[Keely]

Fah la la.. Fah la la.... La la la... There was a cartoon I saw once with a crossdresser getting dressed at Christmas time with that as the title..

Karren I remember that cartoon. Wish I could find a copy of it. No luck on google though. Anyone have that issue and can scan it?

How come "Are you gay?" is the first think out of people's mouth? SO included.

[Piora]

Too long. Want to get your word out? Make shorter and add humor. Write for your audience. I wouldn't mind reading your post, if it weren't on a forum. But it is, and it's a long read for a forum. ;)
I disagree. As an avid reader of several books a month, I consume Freddie's posts much in the same manner I would a good meal. Possibly, I may not like every single item on the 'menu' - but all in all, very satisfying. And as for humour - that's there, too - if you read the whole post. For myself, I come here for the read....the longer the better, when it's well-written, interesting and reflective.

Perhaps Freddie might think about choosing a different font - or, at least, a larger point size of that same font. That's the only criticism I have.

'write' on, Freddie!


If writing relaxes you, write an e-book.
Great idea! What do you think, Frédérique?

[JulieK1980]

I rather enjoy reading Freddie's posts. They are long, but they are informative, and always cause me to reflect and think. If this forum was nothing but short hallmark card length posts I wouldn't come here.