Did anybody CD in a muslim country?

[pinto]

and if, what were your experiences? Is beeing a woman in a muslim country still desirable?

[NathalieX66]

I'm in northern New Jersey, and we have a pretty thick muslim community here.

I will say that on my Nathalie facebook page, that I get a rediculous amount of friend requests from guys from muslim countries......almost daily. What does that tell you? It seems to me when you bottle up society, yiou get an undrground culture trying to release itself.

[Staci G]

I have the same on my FB account as Nathalie, I agree that if you tell someone they can not do something thats the more they want to./

[Terry V]

My idea of dressing does not include a burka and a vail not much to think about unless what is under that thing is more than I can imagine

[pinto]

i mean, would you still have the desire to crossdress if you had to live under the laws and restrictions in a muslim country? in my point of view - yes i would.

[Debglam]

Pinto,

I spent way more time in the Middle East than I ever wanted to. I spent a lot of time in Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries and frankly they treat women like garbage! Second class citizen doesn't even begin to describe the plight of women in those countries!

You would still have the desire but the risk would be huge! I believe that some of us from those countries have posted here previously. To our sisters (GG, TG, CD) in these countries - we know how you are suffering and we are with you! You are better than that and deserve better!

Debby

[Sophie86]

If lived in a Muslim country, my one desire would be to immigrate. Christian fundamentalists are bad enough, but I would not want to live among Islamic fundamentalists. I like having my head attached to my shoulders.

[pinto]

Pinto,

I spent way more time in the Middle East than I ever wanted to. I spent a lot of time in Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries and frankly they treat women like garbage! Second class citizen doesn't even begin to describe the plight of women in those countries!

You would still have the desire but the risk would be huge! I believe that some of us from those countries have posted here previously. To our sisters (GG, TG, CD) in these countries - we know how you are suffering and we are with you! You are better than that and deserve better!

Debby

Yes Debby I know. So if our sisters despite of these treatments still choose to be a woman it means much - very much! I appreciate that and would like to support them morally.
But how many CD'ers get affected from beeing treated like garbage. How many choose to live as a man just in order not be treated like this or do they still prefer to be a woman and suffer?

[Patty B.]

A family member is married to a muslim from the middle east and is treated like a second class citizen as I believe tends to be the case with most muslims. Treat women like garbage.

[ReineD]

Not all Arabic women are treated as garbage. My SO has a student from Saudi Arabia. She is here with her husband and children, working on a PhD, and she will return home when it is completed. She voluntarily wears a full burka (where the eyes are covered by a mesh), even here. My SO congratulated her today on the new Saudi Arabian women's vote. She thanked him, and said it wouldn't change much of anything, since women have everything they need already.

This woman is obviously not mistreated by her husband or her family (there must be many more like her). She also cherishes her cultural traditions. She cannot imagine living in any other way. Having been raised here, this is beyond my comprehension, but I do respect how she feels.

There are many other women who are treated horribly though, and the unfortunate thing is, they cannot change their fate. All women would have to stand in solidarity to fight the cultural norms and I'm afraid it won't happen, because the women who are not mistreated are happy with the status quo.

[Katie83]

My desire to crossdress would not change where ever i happened to be in the world, my aim where i live is to blend and i would aim to blend in with whatever culture i was amongst. I think the majority of cultures treat women poorly, but some are far far worse than others. Its my opinion that everyone is equal, female, male, tg, cd etc and we all should be treated equally, and treat others equally. Unfortunately i doubt this will ever happen.
Katie

[Sophie86]

This woman is obviously not mistreated by her husband or her family (there must be many more like her). She also cherishes her cultural traditions. She cannot imagine living in any other way. Having been raised here, this is beyond my comprehension, but I do respect how she feels.

I don't respect how she feels. It's fine for her if she really wants to live that way, but what about all the Saudi women who long for freedom? It's not a voluntary system, and there are very severe penalties for violating its rules. Women like her are even worse than the men, because they provide cover for the men. It's Uncle Tomism--or call it Stockholm Syndrome. All it does is help perpetuate a barbaric, brutally misogynistic system.

[ReineD]

I don't respect how she feels. It's fine for her if she really wants to live that way, but what about all the Saudi women who long for freedom?

Sophie, did you read the rest of my post? :p

This woman feels she is free. She is in our country pursuing a PhD. She goes out on her own and she drives a car. She chooses to wear her burka for reasons that you do not understand. I was responding to many of the people in this thread who said that all women there are mistreated or abused. This is painting with a broad brush by those who read the news stories (like I do) about the women who are abused (as I mentioned in my third paragraph), and applying them to everyone else.

The issue is that we cannot impose our way of thinking on a culture that is completely different, and expect them to go for it. This isn't realistic and as I said, there are many women there who are not treated poorly by their families and husbands and who do believe in the cultural and religious reasons for maintaining their gender role status and wearing a burka.

To not respect how these women feel is tantamount to saying that our political and religious beliefs are better than anyone else's, and it is this ethnocentricity that has given us such a bad reputation in many parts of the world.

I don't condone laws that allow women to have their noses and ears cut off and I do believe such laws need to change. Please read my third paragraph. But at the same time, I respect my SO's student's wish to live according to the cultural and religious laws that she does believe in.

My point is, the issue is way more complex than just saying, "all these women are mistreated".

[Debra Russell]

Hay if that's what she wants -- fine so be it , --just not very pretty!................Debra

[pinto]

I think there are many women in those countries not missing anything. They are used to this culture. For them its normal. There are also such as ReineD described. Anyway its a matter of culture and tradition and it depends on each individual how to get along with the rules of society no matter how much sense a rule makes.

In my case I can tell that I tend more to the role of an obedient woman when CD'ing. It means I can imagine to adopt the role of a muslim wife quite well.

[Sophie86]

Sophie, did you read the rest of my post? :p

I always read all of your posts. :p


This woman feels she is free.

Her feeling that it is so doesn't make it so. There were slaves in the South who were treated (relatively) well and thought Master was the greatest and wisest man on earth. They saw no reason for those Yankees to be coming down here and messin' with folk. We can recognize that for exactly what it is, right? It's not a choice based on freedom of thought and freedom of conscience. It's a response conditioned by intense brainwashing.


She is in this country pursuing a PhD. She goes out on her own and she drives a car.

Which she won't be allowed to do when she goes back home.

And she probably wouldn't be over here if her husband had any reason to think she wouldn't want to go back home.


She chooses to wear her burka for reasons that you do not understand.

I'm not taking issue with her desire to wear a tent. I'm taking issue with her statement that "the vote won't change anything because women already have what they need." Who is she to speak for all Saudi women, and tell them what they need? I don't respect the attitude that because she accepts with what her overlords want for her, all Muslim women should accept it.


I was responding to many of the people in this thread who said that all women there are mistreated or abused.

I grew up in the South, and all my life I have been hearing people say that not all the slaves were beaten and abused, as if that somehow made it better that they had no freedom and could be killed for trying to escape their oppression. No, I'm sure the ones who obey their fathers, and their brothers, and their husbands don't get abused. The abuse is reserved for the ones who have the temerity to misbehave, and given the penalties, they are probably few and far between.


The issue is that we cannot impose our way of thinking on a culture that is completely different, and expect them to go for it.

It worked in the South. Mostly.

But I'm not saying that we ought to go over there and change their political system. I have every right to criticize it from over here though.


To not respect how these women feel is tantamount to saying that our political and religious beliefs are better than anyone else's, and this is what has given us such a bad reputation in many parts of the world.

It's not the clothes they choose to wear, or the way they organize their household that I have a problem with. It's the element of force that permeates their political system that I object to. It is directed primarily at women, but also at men, especially those who deviate from the heterosexual/masculine standard.


I don't respect laws that allow women to have their noses and ears cut off and I believe such laws need to change.

That's at the extreme end. There's a lot that can happen short of cutting off a woman's nose that still qualifies as oppression.


Please read my third paragraph.

I did. It was what she said that I had a problem with, not what you said in your third paragraph.


But at the same time, I respect my SO's student to live according to the cultural and religious laws that she does believe in.

But those religious laws oppress women. A woman has the right to live in accordance with them as "rules to live by," but no one has the right to force them on other women.

Analogy: Many Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin. It is okay by me if a man with homosexual tendencies feels he needs to suppress those tendencies in order to live by his interpretation of Leviticus. He doesn't have the right to force that religious law on others though.


My point was that the issue is way more complex than just saying, "all these women are mistreated".

They are all oppressed, whether they are getting beat up or not, and whether they agree with their oppressors or not. As long as they do not have the right to choose a different way of life, they are oppressed.

And if they all agreed with the traditions, then all that force wouldn't be necessary, would it?

[Niya W]

on face book I met CD from Cario.

[Nesreen]

Okay everyone calms down :heehee:

Please don't go stereo-typing my culture like you lived there all your lives, Sisters! Hollywood movies and newspapers/Media amplifies what they want you to see.

First of all... what is a Muslim Country... there's nothing like that. The only countries that can be called that are Iran and Saudi Arabia, period. Coming from Kuwait and I've been to Cairo, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, UAE and Oman a lot of times I can tell you it's not as bad as some of you think.

Even veteran soldiers who served in Kuwait are probably only lived near the outer towns were the redneck version of my people would reside in. It's like going to hillbilly-town which is something like the deliverance movie and claiming that you've seen America!

While it's true usually living in the Middle East would be more problematic than living in, say, California for a CD. Three years ago in Kuwait Transvestites/CDers used to go out in public unharmed. But ever since that law was legislated sometime in 2007 things got messed up. I've seen TGs in the senate protesting for their rights and they were on the news. They weren't persecuted but by law "there", however, they can be persecuted if they were en-femme in public and only post 2007 because of that law.

Women are not treated like a second class citizen here either. We have female ministers, female senators, female CEO (biggest investment company in Kuwait called Global Investment and is managed by a female CEO). Women are pretty much equal and who has the skills and the ability to take any position will take it regardless of sex. That's what's happening here at least in Kuwait.

There are a lot of educated and understanding people in Kuwait who will never oppose any life style or belief. Actually Kuwait is founded on accepting people of all faiths and religion even before the constitution. But ever since that stupid law was legislated things got out of hand and hence I wouldn't recommend any CD/TV to live in Kuwait now.

Being a Woman is Kuwait is desirable but being a male TG woman is not desirable!


Just to give the Middle East/Muslim justice regarding feminism. There have been a lot more Female leaders through out the history of this place than the female leaders of USA. Balqees the Queen of Sabaa (Yemen), Shajarat Al Dur of Ayyubids (Egypt), Zannubia, Cleopetra, Hatchipsut of the top of my head. This is like thousands of years before Women Suffrage of USA on 1920.... :daydreaming:

And for the current times I'll just name a few women leaders like Benazir Buto (RIP) 11th Prime Minister of Pakistan and Magawati of Indonesia (President of the biggest "Muslim" country in the world) 2001-2004. :battingeyelashes:

I just wish we get rid of all these nay-sayer and everyone got a share of these people in their countries. You know who am I talking about. :Angry3:

[ReineD]

First of all... what is a Muslim Country... there's nothing like that. The only countries that can be called that are Iran and Saudi Arabia, period. Coming from Kuwait and I've been to Cairo, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, UAE and Oman a lot of times I can tell you it's not as bad as some of you think.

Thank you.

It's a complex region and we cannot make blanket statements about the treatment of women there, even though all of us shudder when news stories reach us such as this woman who suffered at the hand of Muslim extremists:

http://afghanistan.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/18/shaming-her-in-laws-costs-19-year-old-her-nose-ears/

I have a friend who is from Iran. She was a student activist (in medical school in Tehran) during the late 1970s and she was jailed for opposing the Ayatollah Khomeini. Despite this, she takes a great deal of pride in her roots, she has a cultural understanding of the Middle East, and she has taught me how little we, in the West, truly understand.

[Kaz]

We are in danger of being way of topic here, but it is a key issue... I have hundreds of muslim friends and have worked now with well over a thousand...

Some of these people are my closest friends. I respect their religion and they respect my approach to religion. In some countries, where state law is more linked to Islam, by nature it is more proscriptive... There has been a recent incident in Saudi reported in the UK about a woman having been sentenced to 10 lashes for driving a car. This has apparently been quashed and the Saudi Royal Family have intervened... but there are many Saudi males who think this is a bad thing...

I have a very clear moral compass... I refuse to insist that I am right and that everyone else is wrong... we need diversity... and we need to accept that in cultures that we are not familiar with we do not know best... There is a lot of good received knowledge expressed in the Kuran that most Weterners would agree with... the rest isn't for us... it is for those peoples surviving in the countries for which it is intended. It is a code for a good society.

I am amashamed of Christianity and all it holds. This religion has caused the death and suffering of millions over the years...

I want to be me... I know who I am, I am a good person with faults...

Would I CD in a muslim country...?

I prefer to live to fight another day... in Kashmir I think I'd be okay, Saudi, less so... etc...

Do I regard the Bhurka or even the veil as CDing... no.... but that is not my society...

Does CDing in Saudi mean wearing the full gear? This is how they present in public... in private, it is a very different world!

Are we really that different?

[Sophie86]

Okay everyone calms down :heehee:

I'm not upset. This is just how I "sound" in text when I'm stating an emphatically held opinion. :)


First of all... what is a Muslim Country... there's nothing like that. The only countries that can be called that are Iran and Saudi Arabia, period. Coming from Kuwait and I've been to Cairo, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, UAE and Oman a lot of times I can tell you it's not as bad as some of you think.

To clarify what I meant by "Muslim country", I would not want to live in any country that bases its law on sharia--I believe in separation of church and state. My comments about the oppression of women, though, were specifically directed at Saudi Arabia. I grant you that there are countries where the population is majority Muslim, but the laws are not as repressive. Saudi Arabia is probably the worst, followed by Iran.


While it's true usually living in the Middle East would be more problematic than living in, say, California for a CD. Three years ago in Kuwait Transvestites/CDers used to go out in public unharmed. But ever since that law was legislated sometime in 2007 things got messed up.

And that's one of the more enlightened Middle East countries. What made them change the law?


Women are not treated like a second class citizen here either. We have female ministers, female senators, female CEO (biggest investment company in Kuwait called Global Investment and is managed by a female CEO). Women are pretty much equal and who has the skills and the ability to take any position will take it regardless of sex. That's what's happening here at least in Kuwait.

I'm glad of that.


Just to give the Middle East/Muslim justice regarding feminism. There have been a lot more Female leaders through out the history of this place than the female leaders of USA. Balqees the Queen of Sabaa (Yemen), Shajarat Al Dur of Ayyubids (Egypt), Zannubia, Cleopetra, Hatchipsut of the top of my head. This is like thousands of years before Women Suffrage of USA on 1920.... :daydreaming:

The Queen of Sheba, Zenobia, Cleopatra and Hatshepsut were not Muslims, and did not live under sharia. Regardless, it's not atypical for otherwise misogynistic cultures to allow a woman to rule. I could rattle off plenty of European female rulers from times when women in general had no freedom there. Having a female ruler doesn't change anything about the condition of women within the culture. Giving women the right to vote, on the other hand, makes it possible for them to change oppressive laws.


And for the current times I'll just name a few women leaders like Benazir Buto (RIP) 11th Prime Minister of Pakistan

Wasn't she assassinated by radical islamists?

[Debglam]

All, Nesreen and Reine in particular: I mean you no disrespect or disrespect to your countries. I apologize for the word "garbage" in the general sense but the things I saw in Saudi Arabia would make that term appropriate regarding the treatment of women.

Nesreen, I never mean to insult a sister and I have nothing but respect for you dealing with these trans issues in your part of the world. More power to you!

You are absolutely correct that all of these countries are different and I am praying that with the changes in regime in many of them, real freedom will blossom. I am not trying to bash Islam or Arab culture but with that said I think that objectively speaking, women and LGBT people are not treated well in these countries.
Reine, your Saudi friend may choose to wear a burka here, but she doesn't have a choice not to in her own country. I have seen the religious police stop women for not being appropriately covered. Women are not allowed to drive in her country and were not even permitted in the front seat of the car when I was there. The news just reported that there is a woman that is going to be horse whipped for driving. Given the public "punishments" including chopping off the hands of thieves that I witnessed during my time there, I think that this article is accurate.

I have spent time in the Gulf states and they are certainly more liberal than Saudi Arabia but I'm sorry, I just don't see women let alone TG's having any sort of equality given the strict patriarchical society. Women may rise to positions of authority but that is only because their husbands, fathers, brothers, etc. grant them permission to. Not because they have the inherently equal status that they should have.

Debby

[ReineD]

Reine, your Saudi friend may choose to wear a burka here, but she doesn't have a choice not to in her own country. I have seen the religious police stop women for not being appropriately covered. Women are not allowed to drive in her country and were not even permitted in the front seat of the car when I was there.

There is no denying that women in some of the Middle Eastern countries have fewer freedoms than women here. I would not like to live according to their rules. But, to say that all women are treated like garbage is subjective. There are women who are abused, but not all women are. The submissive roles the women willingly adopt are rooted in their cultural and religious beliefs and my point earlier was, these women don't feel the need to change. This is what makes it so difficult to impose our way of life on them. I would love to see all these women rise up and denounce everything they believe in, but it's not going to happen for the simple reason that they do not feel abused (excluding the women who suffer at the hands of extremists).

[Debglam]

The submissive roles the women willingly adopt are rooted in their cultural and religious beliefs and my point earlier was, these women don't feel the need to change. This is what makes it so difficult to impose our way of life on them. I would love to see all these women rise up and denounce everything they believe in, but it's not going to happen for the simple reason that they do not feel abused (excluding the women who suffer at the hands of extremists).

I agree. How do you teach someone that there is in fact a better way if they know of nothing better????

[Stephanie47]

I agree. How do you teach someone that there is in fact a better way if they know of nothing better????

There's something called the Internet. That's where I found out I am not a 'repressed freak of nature.'

[Debglam]

There's something called the Internet. That's where I found out I am not a 'repressed freak of nature.'

Excellent point! I was thinking that myself and it has been documented that the internet has been a catalyst for change in many repressed parts of the world. When I was in Saudi, back in the Compuserve era, you had to apply for a license from the government to access the internet.