70% !?

[Badtranny]

Okay, I've seen this 70% statistic in regard to HIV infections in the TG community being bounced around in other threads and I want to see some discussion on that.

I have a very hard time believing that 7 out of 10 T-girls are HIV positive.

I'm not, and none of my friends are (as far as I know). I think an informal poll on this very site could cast doubt on that figure.

I think it may be true that T-girls who are in need of the type of clinic or counseling services that Shanny described might indeed be a higher risk but I hardly think that 70% of the TG population is HIV positive.

[Rianna Humble]

Would it perhaps make sense to PM the very supportive GG who posted the figure to ask what the science is behind the numbers?

[AllieSF]

Actually, I had the same question about 70%. Asking the question in a PM does not clear up for others that have the same question. Plus, why detract from the original topic from the other thread. This is the perfect place to ask, I think. To me, it seems very high. I can understand that HIV in MtF TS's may be higher than the general public, or maybe even male gays. Anyway, I am looking forward to more information and maybe other studies. Oh, I am not questioning Shenanigans, just the 70% statistic.

[Melody Moore]

There is noone in my local support group who is HIV positive as far as I am aware - so I think those statistics are crap.

[JulieK1980]

I sent the article in question to you.

[Longing2be-Trisha]

Why would that be? Are all of use just sleeping around and doing drugs with whom ever comes along? Unfortunately there are those few that make use all look bad!

Hugs

[Kaitlyn26]

Well, I know my Dad was a bi-sexual crossdresser, and probably got HIV from anal sex. I've heard that it increases the risk of HIV transmission greatly, and the desire to possibly do something like that could lead to a high number like that. Oral sex also increases the risk. Pretty much all the orifices that a t-girl might use to gain a degree of feminine sexual activity increases the risk. The fact that they're likely doing this with each other mainly, makes the number easy to believe if you're educated about it.

"That I know of". Yep, my Dad said the same thing. Not knowing didn't help him much. So don't take chances, it's that simple. A poll wouldn't really do much, because the problem with HIV is that so many people are completely uninformed about it.

Perhaps a better poll would be, are you sexually active with men.

[Barbara Dugan]

I read about the same statistics but I believe it was referring to the border area TG working girls

[BRANDYJ]

Whether it's 70% infected, or 70% that are not, makes no difference. Would you risk it if only 30% were infected? Not me.

[Melody Moore]

I sent the article in question to you.
Why couldn't you just post it here so we can all check this out?

[JulieK1980]

Why couldn't you just post it here so we can all check this out?

I wasn't sure on the rules if I could post a link or not..... lol

I'll link it in after I finish giving my kids dinner.....

[MJ]

thats very high %. i don't know any. I'm not having sex but then again I'm British

[Inna]

I honestly would speculate that such number could refer to bi or homosexual transgender population and not majority of transgender hetero oriented folks however 70% of infection in now days doesn't seem plausible.

And I haven't had sex for a while now............................does that mean I am British too ;)

[Kaitlyn26]

Wasn't Austin Powers British?

[DebbieL]

Okay, I've seen this 70% statistic in regard to HIV infections in the TG community being bounced around in other threads and I want to see some discussion on that.

Is that the TG (Transgendered) or TS (Transsexual) community? And is that the ENTIRE TS community or just those getting HRT with plans for SRS?


I have a very hard time believing that 7 out of 10 T-girls are HIV positive.

I'm guessing that we are talking a very specific group, those who have had HRT and breast implants, and are planning SRS. Many transsexuals, especially younger transsexuals often end up being thrown out of their parental homes, have difficulty finding traditional high paying jobs during the transition, and don't have the experience to get high paying professional or technical jobs during their transition. As a result, they often have to turn to prostitution to fund their electrolysis, HRT, and cosmetic procedures. Even the SRS is something you don't want to get at bargain rates. Only recently did larger corporations provide EEOC protection for transgendered or transsexuals. Most companies still don't cover Electrolysis, HRT, or breast implants for MtF transsexuals.

Many transsexuals who have been denied support for their condition become self-destructive, turning to drugs and alcohol. Often, gay men assume that transsexuals are gay, and try to seduce them while they are very drunk. I suspect that the sample group is a very small subset of the total TG or even TS community, and mostly high profile with a greater need to turn to prostitution or gay sex even if that is not their primary preference.


I'm not, and none of my friends are (as far as I know). I think an informal poll on this very site could cast doubt on that figure.

I think it may be true that T-girls who are in need of the type of clinic or counseling services that Shanny described might indeed be a higher risk but I hardly think that 70% of the TG population is HIV positive.

I suspect you're correct. I suspect this count may have been limited to drag queens and HRT/BI transsexuals.

[Inna]

Perhaps this study was performed encompassing sex working transsexual population which has day by day sexual activities with undisclosed often HIV danger carrying clients. Then maybe such number could be somewhat true, but I am still skeptical

[Kaitlyn26]

Here's an article I found with tests conducted right in your back yard.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448420/

It doesn't show a 70% status across the board but it's high enough to worry about. No one EVER has HIV, or knows anyone that does, or knows about the risk, until it's already too late. Looks like any of you in SF or LA are AT RISK, unless you play it safe.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/transgender/

That's another one, conducted outside of the SF, LA, melting pot. It shows that the newly diagnosed cases are coming in at more than twice the rate of non-transgendered people. The numbers are modest, but they're clearly high.


in Atlanta, 46 (87%) of 53 transgender sex workers reported engaging in receptive anal sex (Elifson et al., 1993)

http://her.oxfordjournals.org/content/14/2/177.full

Like it or not, "sex workers" count towards this statistic. Any questions about how real this statistic is?

[JulieK1980]

Here was the article in question.....

http://saathii.pantoto.org/p/UpLoad/idb/librarian/f/HIV%20Among%20Transgendered%20People.pdf



*Edit* Thanks Melody, for pulling the essential details out of it. :)

[Melody Moore]

Results of the study posted by Jody



HIV status was determined by the question, ‘As far as you know are you HIV-positive?’ Of the
48 MTFs who answered the question, nine (18.8%) were HIV-positive, 37 (77.1%) were
HIV-negative and two (4.2%) said don’t know/no answer. Among HIV-positive MTFs, five
(55.6%) were taking medicine to treat the virus. All FTMs (n 5 32) reported they were HIV-negative.

[Badtranny]

Perhaps a better poll would be, are you sexually active with men.

Well, I'm sexually active with men but I am not HIV positive and I get tested whenever my HRT doc does a panel which is 4 times a year.

Sex with men is indeed a higher risk, but condom use mitigates the risk almost 100%. Safe sex really is safe for the most part. I've been getting topped by men since I was 19 and I think the fact that I'm still negative is a testament to the efficacy of condoms.

I also believe closet queens are probably at higher risk due to their um, higher risk activities. I was much more willing to take chances back when I was closeted. I no longer have a need for anonymous sex, I can openly flirt or date whoever I want in broad daylight.

[Kaitlyn26]

Whether your safe sex practices are working or not, to try and debate the statistic, without citation, is only going to perpetuate ignorance. Just like every other HIV carrier, my Dad muttered the famous words, "How could this happen to me?" He was also using "safe" sex, his entire life. Don't underestimate HIV, you won't get a second chance to correct that mistake.

[JulieK1980]

Whether your safe sex practices are working or not, to try and debate the statistic, without citation, is only going to perpetuate ignorance. Just like every other HIV carrier, my Dad muttered the famous words, "How could this happen to me?" He was also using "safe" sex, his entire life. Don't underestimate HIV, you won't get a second chance to correct that mistake.

This is true. Abstinence is the only "safe" sex. However, for the rest of us that don't see abstinence as a viable option, there is the condom.

[Kaitlyn26]

This is true. Abstinence is the only "safe" sex. However, for the rest of us that don't see abstinence as a viable option, there is the condom.

That's perfectly fine. :) I also practice safe sex and after my Dad's death, really became cautious about partners. My point is, don't try to challenge something like that unless you're going to provide some good information, preferably from multiple sources. Otherwise we're just a bunch of ignorant people spouting personal opinion and not helping anyone. ;)

[Badtranny]

Don't underestimate HIV, you won't get a second chance to correct that mistake.

The statistic doesn't match my observations over the course of my life. How am I supposed to believe those stats when I've never knowingly met anyone with HIV and according to the numbers, 7 out of 10 T-girls I meet are supposed to be HIV positive? There should literally be hundreds of HIV positive people on this very board.

In regard to perpetuating ignorance, I feel like statistics that indict the overwhelming majority of T-girls without providing context are perpetuating the myth that gay sex is a death sentence. It clearly isn't as I've never personally known anyone who got sick or died due to HIV and I know people who have been sexually active homosexuals since high school.

[Kaitlyn26]

The statistic doesn't match my observations over the course of my life. How am I supposed to believe those stats when I've never knowingly met anyone with HIV and according to the numbers, 7 out of 10 T-girls I meet are supposed to be HIV positive? There should literally be hundreds of HIV positive people on this very board.

In regard to perpetuating ignorance, I feel like statistics that indict the overwhelming majority of T-girls without providing context are perpetuating the myth that gay sex is a death sentence. It clearly isn't as I've never personally known anyone who got sick or died due to HIV and I know people who have been sexually active homosexuals since high school.

There are hundreds, right now. They're either not making it public knowledge, or do not know themselves. Please, read up on the subject.

The first article I linked placed your town at 70% among certain racial demo graphs, and very high in all the others. If you haven't met them, it's because they haven't told you, or they don't know. Don't be naive.

Most HIV carriers do not make it public knowledge, until they have to. They may even solicit safe sex with someone.


In 2009 the highest percentage of new HIV diagnoses were among those aged 40-44 years.

http://www.avert.org/usa-race-age.htm

You're about to see some of those friends find out, imo.

[Badtranny]

So, I started out just arguing my own experience, but Kaitlyn seemed to be jumping back and forth between her opinion and the statistics. Below I've grabbed a few quotes out of the study that seem to confirm my contention that this 70% stat is woefully out of context.

Male-to-female (MTF) transgender persons are individuals who experience discomfort with their biological male gender and identify instead as women. Members of this population confront multiple health risks,1 with HIV/AIDS constituting a particularly overwhelming social and medical issue. Estimates of HIV prevalence in the MTF transgender population range from 11% to 78%.2–9 However, few evidence-based transgender-specific HIV interventions exist.10,11

The ESTIMATES for the TG population range from 11% to 78%. Clearly no consensus here.

San Francisco, a city known for acceptance of sexual diversity, has a large, multicultural MTF transgender population. Data from anonymous HIV testing sites in San Francisco indicated an incidence rate of 7.8 per 100 person-years—the highest for any risk group in the city

Um, this is 7.8% not 70%

Furthermore, HIVpositive participants were more likely than HIV-negative participants to report unprotected receptive anal sex (URAS) with primary partners and injection drug use in the past 6 months.

Like I said earlier, safe sex is an effective way to avoid HIV. If you don't bareback and you don't share needles, you are MUCH less likely to get infected.

To be considered eligible for the study, each participant had to (1) identify as an MTF transgender person (including pre- and postoperative status); (2) identify as African American, API, or Latina; (3) have a history of exchanging sex for money or drugs; and (4) be 18 years of age or older

Context anyone? These are the criteria for inclusion in this study. Look at number three.

Ninety-eight percent of the MTF transgender sample reported having ever tested for HIV. Of those who had been tested, 26% reported being HIV-positive. Another 68% reported being HIV-negative; 4% were unsure and 1% refused to report their status.

Again, 26% is a looooong way from 70%.

Based on this information, it stands to reason that I would not personally know anyone with HIV. I'm not a sex worker, or a drug user, or low income, and I don't have unprotected sex. How in good conscience could anyone use this particular study to condemn me or my circle of friends?

[Amber99]

70% is a scare number. Total bullshit.

[Melody Moore]

As I said in my post earlier, the results of the study posted by Jody that
sparked this discussion have revealed: 77.1% were HIV-negative.

http://saathii.pantoto.org/p/UpLoad/...d%20People.pdf


RESULTS
HIV status was determined by the question, ‘As far as you know are you HIV-positive?’ Of the
48 MTFs who answered the question, nine (18.8%) were HIV-positive, 37 (77.1%) were
HIV-negative and two (4.2%) said don’t know/no answer. Among HIV-positive MTFs, five
(55.6%) were taking medicine to treat the virus. All FTMs (n 5 32) reported they were HIV-negative.18.8% were HIV-positive

So I think someone has actually misread this information and stated it incorrectly. :)

[Kaitlyn26]

Based on this information, it stands to reason that I would not personally know anyone with HIV. I'm not a sex worker, or a drug user, or low income, and I don't have unprotected sex. How in good conscience could anyone use this particular study to condemn me or my circle of friends?

You sound like you're a statistic waiting to happen. Your income has nothing to do with anything. Sounds snobbish to me.

No one wants to condemn you and your friends, but if you don't wake up, you're going to condemn yourselves.


Ninety-eight percent of the MTF transgender sample reported having ever tested for HIV. Of those who had been tested, 26% reported being HIV-positive. Another 68% reported being HIV-negative; 4% were unsure and 1% refused to report their status.

26% is over one in four. If you have 16 friends that fit that demographic, chances are that one of them will carry HIV. Actually chances are that one of them that doesn't get tested regularly is probably much higher, being as the test was only conducted on those that had been tested previously, and not an actual sit down and test the person, type of test! Doesn't sound like much of a test at all to be honest. More like a census.

How many members of the sex industry actually participated in the census you quoted? I'm guessing not many because in the article that I linked about actual testing on the sex industry, where results were much higher than your census, none of them had actually been tested previously. So yes, this census you provided is about you, your rigorous testing, and your supple income. Poor folks can't afford a regular HIV test. That census was taken from you sweetie.

I'm done with this thread. If you gain comfort from denial while living in the highest risk city in the country, go for it.

[JulieK1980]

As I said in my post earlier, the results of the study posted by Jody that
sparked this discussion have revealed: 77.1% were HIV-negative.


18.8% were HIV-positive

So I think someone has actually misread this information and stated it incorrectly. :)

I only caught the tail end of the last thread on this topic, but it does appear that it was misquoted from the study. Reading the study, I can see how that could easily be misread. It's not very clear.

Also worth noting is the VERY small number of people in the study. It probably has a 70% margin for error which is why it has such a wide range given for percentages. The study was also done in one specific area, which can also effect the accuracy of the study for other areas. Not to mention it's geared towards transgendered sex workers.

[AllieSF]

Kaitlyn, Melissa is not saying that HIV is not prevalent in MtF TG's or TS's. She started her thread questioning the 70% figure quoted by someone in another thread. HIV is dangerous and communicable, no doubt about that. You can continue to pick fly shit out of pepper to make the point that HIV is dangerous. I don't doubt that, period. So, what is your data and/or opinion on this figure? Do you agree with it, dispute it or are curious like us? I am educated and am questioning that high of a number. To say that a gun shot wound to the head can be fatal is true, to say the 90% are not fatal is questionable. I think we are trying to clarify the veracity of that 70% figure, not whether HIV is a bad bug to get.

[Kaitlyn26]

I think that world wide the figure is probably close to accurate. Obviously each person can do things to lower their actual chances, but a rough estimate like that is about everyone, even those in third world countries that have no idea what a condom is.

I'm sorry, it bothers me when I see the classic signs of an HIV statistic displayed right in front of me. I guess it's not my problem. If I were religious, I might pray for Mel. Since I'm not, I'll just say, good luck.

[Melody Moore]

I agree Jody...

This argument is getting a little bit beyond ridiculous - there will always be differing results
with these types of surveys & no survey can ever accurately determine the true statistics.

So I have to strongly disagree Kaitlyn about any claims of accurate global statistics.

Things can differ greatly between places and circumstances. For example I go to a sexual health
clinic that was set up mostly for HIV & STIs for my transitional management & part of their policies
are to screen everyone who goes there on a regular basis - so I know I have a clean bill of health
and am also going make sure it stays that way. I really don't want sex with anyone until after my
SRS and there are quite a few girls I know in my group that also feel this way

I also know several transsexual sex workers who told me that they cannot solicit sex on a
street corner for example and they MUST practice safe sex using prophylactics or it's illegal.

See: http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/P/ProstitutA99.pdf - on Page 70:


77A Prostitute providing sexual intercourse or oral sex without a prophylactic
(1) A prostitute must not provide prostitution involving sexual intercourse or oral sex unless a prophylactic is used.So I seriously doubt that these figures would reflect the true nature of HIV in trans-sex workers where I live.

[Kaitlyn26]

Melody, if you want to get some really good info, you have to find actual tests conducted, where each person is sat down and given an HIV test. It looks like most of these are just a simple "poll" or census, of people that already know. The devil in HIV, is that so many do not know.

[AllieSF]

Thanks Kaitlyn, I truly do understand your passion and experience with the subject. I know too many people that have nothing to do with transgenderism and that take serious risks in the real world now with sexual encounters. Sometimes those actions/risks are taken in the heat/passion/enthusiasm of the moment, other times that are taken with a full understanding of the consequences. I think that Melissa is only trying to question the 70% figure and not to really discuss her private sexual life and how she deals with the risks. I think that she is well aware of the chances she takes, and anyone else takes when they hop into bed with someone. I think that your underlying message that I understand to be, "Hey people, you just never know how sane (like in no STD HIV) that person next to you is." is a very good one.

[Kaitlyn26]

Allie,
When you start to list ideas of why you're not at risk, and how it could never happen to you, you can start to talk yourself, or others into taking silly risks. It's just not good, and combined with the heat of the moment as you said, it can lead to some people taking some crazy risks. I'm sure you understand that, but I'm worried that some others do not. Okay, no more preaching. :heehee:

[Melody Moore]

Damn it - I just had a very detailed post written up and lost it that contained Australian &
Global HIV Statistics, along with estimates on the number of transsexual people in Australia

The percentage of transsexuals in Australia calculates out to 0.01% (8749) of the population.
Source: http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TSprevalence.html

The percentage of HIV Cases from 2000-2009 calculates out to 0.04% of the total
population. And the report confirms that Unprotected homosexual intercourse is the
main mode of transmission in Australia, New Zealand and smaller Pacific countries.

See: http://www.afao.org.au/about-hiv/hiv-epidemic

So just going off those statistics and that bit information alone there is no way that any figures shown
on this thread can accurately reflect the exact number of HIV cases in transsexuals living in Australia.

Now the global picture in 2009:

* Globally, new HIV infections have declined by 19%. HIV incidence has also fallen by more than 25% in 33 countries since 2001.
* 33.3 million people were estimated to be living with HIV, of whom 2.5 million were children under 15 years.
* 1.8 million people died of AIDS-related conditions, of whom 370,000 million were children under 15 years.
* 2.6 million people became newly infected with HIV.

Source: http://www.unaids.org/globalreport/Global_report.htm

[Niya W]

See now you went some were you should not have gone. Do you know Melissa have you even met her? I have. Yes she is low risk. Like it or not education and income does play a part in risk factor of aids. The fact that she is not a drug user or a working girl also lowers her risk. Who the hell are you to say cause she is listing reasons why she is low risk that she is at risk of doing something stupid or is going to talk some else into doing something stupid . How the hell can you even say that without knowing her? Better yet explain to me how if I were to lust the reason why I’m low risk that all the sudden make me stat waiting to happen. When you say that out loud it really does sound silly now does it. Now as for that original stat I would dispute that number because I know folks that do HIV of Trans prostitutes and it is not that damn high

[Kaitlyn26]

Allie,
When you start to list ideas of why you're not at risk, and how it could never happen to you, you can start to talk yourself, or others into taking silly risks. It's just not good, and combined with the heat of the moment as you said, it can lead to some people taking some crazy risks. I'm sure you understand that, but I'm worried that some others do not. Okay, no more preaching. :heehee:

Read it.^^

I'm guessing Niya, that you also have never met anyone with HIV? I've known four people with it. Two are dead, two went back to SF.

The two that are dead admitted it, the two that are alive, I found a test in the trash can at our work. They reluctantly confessed.

[Badtranny]

You sound like you're a statistic waiting to happen. Your income has nothing to do with anything. Sounds snobbish to me.

OMG did you even READ my post? I was "listing reasons" from right out of the study. The low income remark was because it was a HUGE factor in the results, which by the way were also heavily skewed non-white. Did you read the criteria I posted? How in the heck am I snobbish when I'm simply speaking to the exact criteria of the study YOU posted.

To say that I'm a statistic waiting to happen is inflammatory and stinks of piety. I'm not living in a dream world, I know the risks and I mentioned earlier that my behavior is far less riskier than it was when I was younger and closeted. You're attacking me simply because I'm calling you out on your alarmist dogma.

[Kaitlyn26]

OMG did you even READ my post? I was "listing reasons" from right out of the study. The low income remark was because it was a HUGE factor in the results, which by the way were also heavily skewed non-white. Did you read the criteria I posted? How in the heck am I snobbish when I'm simply speaking to the exact criteria of the study YOU posted.

To say that I'm a statistic waiting to happen is inflammatory and stinks of piety. I'm not living in a dream world, I know the risks and I mentioned earlier that my behavior is far less riskier than it was when I was younger and closeted. You're attacking me simply because I'm calling you out on your alarmist dogma.

If it's not your words, quote it. Cite it as well.

[Niya W]

Yes I do. Nothing Melissa said or does displays classic signs of future aids victim. You are projecting your own hang ups onto Melissa. Don't assume any thing about me .

[Badtranny]

If it's not your words, quote it. Cite it as well.

Are you serious? I was responding directly to YOUR link to the study YOU submitted as proof that I'm high risk. They mention income as a risk indicator throughout the whole darn thing. Try and read it again, I'm sure you'll notice it this time.

You may also want to put me on your block list along with Kelly because I'm also unable to make myself clear enough for you. Is anyone else having trouble understanding me?

[Kaitlyn26]

Yes I do. Nothing Melissa said or does displays classic signs of future aids victim. You are projecting your own hang ups onto Melissa. Don't assume any thing about me .

Then keep doing what you're doing. Downplay risks, ignore statistics, talk yourself into thinking that you're low risk. Most importantly, and most specifically to you Niya Blake, keep jumping on people trying to get you to listen. I don't give a shit anymore.

[Shananigans]

Well, I'm glad that my post caused a bit of an eye-opener. Furthermore, the article that was cited on here wasn't the article that I had cited in the other thread. The article that I was using in the other thread is actually in an assessment book of mine with examples on how to talk to someone about behaviors that could put them at risk for HIV. Lastly, the article that WAS quoted on here needs to be looked at further:

"Gattari et al. (1991) reported that among 22 transgendered prostitutes (11 transvestites and 11 transsexuals) who were attending a drug dependency unit in Rome, 86% tested positive for HIV. Elifson et al. (1993) found that 68% of a sample of 53 male transvestite prostitutes in Atlanta, Georgia were HIV-1-positive. In another study, almost half (47.6%) of 25 MTFs were HIV-positive (Nemoto et al., 1999)."

The RESULTS of this current study showed different trends than prior research (as noted by other users), which makes sense to me. We see it quite often when taking random populations of people. But, it doesn't stop the fact that many other researchers are finding more surprising numbers. Kaitlyn cited some really good research for you.

It should be further noted that you could have unprotected sex tomorrow and turn around and take an HIV test (assuming Western Blot or ELISA) and get a negative result. You may not know you are HIV+ for 6+ months after acquiring the virus.

Why is this? Well, the antibodies that these tests rely on may take many, many months to show up on such tests. Many people do not understand this. A good friend of mine was involved in a hospital accident where HIV+ blood actually squirted into her eye. She tested negative, thank goodness. But, she has an HIV test every 6 months for the rest of her life. We may say that after 6 months it is over kill, but undiagnosed HIV is what really kills.

It is not my job to judge people. It is not my belief to judge people. I chose the profession that I did because I feel a need to help people on an personal level that many health care providers cannot do. Having a medical research background certainly helps me use evidence-based practice measures to offer the best care.

Speaking of, let me just put it this way...ANYONE who is under my care, I will treat as if they are HIV+ AND as if I am HIV+. That might sound a little funny, but it is also my job to make sure I don't pick anything up from you and you do not pick anything up from me. So, if you are under my care, we are both treated with precautions that we are both HIV+. This doesn't mean I would treat you like a leper, but it does mean that I am using sterile technique during EVERYTHING. You'll thank me later when you don't get a staph infection.

I am very surprised at the reactions on this thread, and I am very disappointed. It must be nice to be able to wipe your hands clean of issues and say, "NOPE! NOT A PROBLEM! I WON'T BELIEVE IT!!!"

I wonder how that works in the real world.

You've seen many articles that have shown that HIV is a huge problem with the TG population. What do you want? Do you want me to say that it's not? Will that make you feel better? It's not going to make the HIV+ people feel any better by saying that they are the "gross" TGs...that they are poor and all sex workers. Because, that's not true either. I'm pretty sure that's how HIV got to the problem that it did in the 1980s. History often repeats itself.

It only take ONE time. ONE. One partner and one time that you don't use protection. Write it the f*ck down and remember it.

Do I think people with HIV or other STIs are wh*res and stupid? No...I think they are human. I think it took one time for them to have sex with someone who may or may not have known that he/she was HIV+. I think it took one time to not use a condom or have the condom fail. Judge? No...because I could just as easily be a statistic too. White college-aged females are the group that is rising the most in newly acquired STIs. Do I stomp up and down and yell, "NOOOOO! THIS ISN'T TRUE!!! It's the black girl and they are all prostitutes!!! Oh my god...NOT MY FRIENDS NOT ME!!!" That's dumb, and that's not what I think. I take that little statistic and say, "There is clearly a problem in my community and I am not going to be part of that problem. I'm going to talk to my friends about using condoms and the risks of oral sex." And, I did. Most of them didn't think it could happen to them. I went to the health clinic with a few of them just to be checked out. There's no shame in being tested and I didn't judge them for it. I was proud of them for taking their health into their own hands. And, I practice what I preach because I am tested yearly for STIs and HIV. I'm in a stable relationship, but I take my health into my own hands. It doesn't make me a *****. It doesn't make me a prostitute. It just makes me a sexually active human being in this world. The resources are there, so use them.

So, I really do hope that you all can throw up your hands and say, "Oh, these researchers are wrong. They hate us all anyway...this is absurd. They're all wrong." I hope it makes you feel better about whatever you need to feel better about.

The fact of the matter is that these researchers are interested in YOU and doing these studies that show a common trend: MTF TS are a very high risk group for HIV. One study might grab a group of people that shows 36% have HIV...another group may show that it's 95%...another may show that they're all HIV negative. But, what they are ALL saying is that they are studying this group for a reason. And, you know what that reason is...MTF TS are a high-risk group.

So, argue the stats...do your own research...I HIGHLY approve of it. But, just do me a favor and demand safe sex...and, pass on the word.

[Aprilrain]

Read it.^^

I'm guessing Niya, that you also have never met anyone with HIV? I've known four people with it. Two are dead, two went back to SF.

The two that are dead admitted it, the two that are alive, I found a test in the trash can at our work. They reluctantly confessed.

So what do you suggest? Abstinence? For the rest of our lives?

[Kaitlyn26]

So what do you suggest? Abstinence? For the rest of our lives?

I suggest you be very aware that you're at risk, no matter how much you try to downplay it, that HIV can be contracted many other ways besides sexual intercourse, and be aware that most HIV statistics are not actually known.

[JulieK1980]

Is anyone else having trouble understanding me?

Actually you are quite clear.

@Melody, based on Australia's HIV rates, I think I should move there...... Wow! That's extremely impressive!

One thing I forgot to add on the link I posted, it's also about 10 years out of date. As was mentioned, HIV and AIDS is declining in the developed world rather significantly. That said, we ARE in a high risk group, and safety is always a good idea. :0) I'm stepping out of this conversation now.

*Edit* What Shananigans said. (Was her article after all)

[Aprilrain]

I suggest you be very aware that you're at risk, no matter how much you try to downplay it, that HIV can be contracted many other ways besides sexual intercourse, and be aware that most HIV statistics are not actually known.

ok im aware........now what?

P.S. i haven't downplayed anything. i see you kicking a screaming but not offering any useful information on how to protect oneself. if there is something new and different out there besides avoiding prostitution and IV drug use and using a condom we would like to know otherwise your just getting all fired up over nothing. Aside from abstinence there is no way to eliminate all risk.

[Kaitlyn26]

ok im aware........now what?

Good! I'm done here. Anyone that wants to listen probably already has.

[Shananigans]

So what do you suggest? Abstinence? For the rest of our lives?

Treat your potential sex partners as if they have HIV until proven otherwise. Protect yourself with condoms, dental dams, etc. If you are not aware of various forms of protection for oral sex, anal sex, and vaginal sex...you can PM me and I can talk to you about it. I'm not saying this tongue-in-cheek. I'm being very serious. If you need me to explain how you get HIV, I can talk to you about it. If you need me to explain herpes and how it is transmitted, I can explain it. If there are pregnant women with herpes that is worried about damaging your child, I can talk about it.

What is important is that we are talking about it.

Don't share needles. Keep anyone else's blood away from your cuts and scrapes. Use sexual protection. This is all that you can do. It is true that condoms fail, but the chance of that condom failing is a lot lower than the chance of you getting an STI but not using the condom. If you are a lesbian, same thing applies.

Protection isn't full-proof, but when you have sex with people of questionable STI backgrounds...you roll the dice. That dice is likely to be a more favorable outcome if you use protection.

EDIT: I believe that you edited your post after I added this. I'm not really sure why you even asked then... If you are protecting yourself, then you should feel a bit better. The women that are NOT protecting themselves should be VERY worried. It absolutely baffles me the thought of having unprotected sex with someone when I do not know if they have any STIs. Maybe it's my background...maybe it's seeing people who suffer with HIV and other STIs...maybe it's because I am very realistic and I do not live in a fantasy world...maybe it's because I love myself A LOT (if you haven't noticed). If you are protecting yourself, take this research and pat yourself on the back for being a part of the statistic that is NOT HIV+. If you are not protecting yourself, get tested and start. Either way, you can do all of your peers a favor by offering a favorable view of protection and spreading education.

When you don't protect yourself, you have to live with the consequences. You can go run off to Australia and f*ck like monkeys for all that I care...BUT, STILL USE PROTECTION. They got those statistics from having a good health care system and by using protection. HIV is a virus that does not discriminate on race, SES, gender, etc. You can't say, "Oh the gays have it because they have anal sex." Nope. The people that have HIV got it either from having unprotected sex (I don't care how you are doing it), from sharing needles, or from being exposed to infected blood (from methods other than sharing needles).

Now, I don't see anything in that sentence that says you must be poor, a prostitute, and of color. Do you? I was unaware that a virus could pick and choose like that... Nope... I'm pretty sure that anyone can get it. It's true that certain groups are at higher risk, but they are at higher risk because they put themselves at higher risk.

If you a TS that uses protection...you are at low risk...but, if you DO NOT use protection then you are at very, very, VERY high risk.

Hope that is absolutely clear.

[Badtranny]

Kaitlyn cited some really good research for you.

And I was responding directly to her research. In fact I posted several quotes and indicated how each one was irrelevant to my life. (except for the safe sex part)


I am very surprised at the reactions on this thread, and I am very disappointed. It must be nice to be able to wipe your hands clean of issues and say, "NOPE! NOT A PROBLEM! I WON'T BELIEVE IT!!!"
You've seen many articles that have shown that HIV is a huge problem with the TG population. What do you want? Do you want me to say that it's not? Will that make you feel better? It's not going to make the HIV+ people feel any better by saying that they are the "gross" TGs...that they are poor and all sex workers. Because, that's not true either. I'm pretty sure that's how HIV got to the problem that it did in the 1980s. History often repeats itself.

Show me where anybody wrote anything of that sort. I'm surprised that you would resort to obvious hyperbole to make a point that doesn't even need to be made. Nobody is pretending there is no risk. Nobody is advocating sex without a condom. Nobody is saying our community is not a higher risk community.

My argument is a simple one. The study that was supposed to be pointed right at me because it was in my "backyard" was not effective in making the 70% argument and further it tested a group of people that are outside of my life experience. Please read the criteria I posted for this study. They were looking at TG girls who have been paid for sex AND taken intravenous drugs in the last 6 months. Speaking to that study specifically, it doesn't apply to me or my friends. (possibly April) :-o

We all understand that unprotected anal sex is a very high risk activity. I know that I'm higher risk than you are Shan, I'm not arguing any of this. For the last time, I was speaking directly to the SF study that Kaitlyn submitted. That study is irrelevant to me.

[ReineD]

I think I found another source for 70% HIV+ in Atlanta. Why Atlanta? It has the largest TG community in the Southeast.

53 individuals were sampled of which 37 (70%) were HIV+.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:OQ2kuXS-1DAJ:www.atlantagender.org/HIV_Atlanta_Transgender.ppt+transsexual+hiv+atlant a&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgmoRf44_NSHxuy2UIaMnworB8wCM5ojWyFPkC4 J3ZGdZxsTCNPWFxkWzbeSBK6c6UcxslFHMCgRdopPA_Owqg9Zc doAL3ymsYSqvJ1bIGBUoSbgytIkcrODB1sgJbAKQwwrrNJ&sig=AHIEtbTcFG1ky2AbJJKyuQzNd-KAW3N76Q


This is from the CDC: A review of tuberculosis outbreak among 26 TGs in the Baltimore/New York area found 62% were HIV infected. Also, the estimated HIV infection rate among specific TG populations range between 14%-69%. High risk factors among TGs include multiple sexual partners, irregular condom use, and unsafe drug injection practices.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:YEGROWSGBxYJ:www.cdc.gov/lgbthealth/pdf/fs-transgender-06192007.pdf+assessing+hiv+atlanta+transgender+com munity&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESghhBe_0bRlY833i_kNl6SzMTNvB30kbRcbjuFk GQshySXazY68qbjORXC4tTH2i9DJXpIhyqhML65lK7cdGAvRro J2EE_btsn3fVoSCZdv_BlmD_lpDBB7_yaqdhvHaNCGDAZ_&sig=AHIEtbSLtrrew64zQO-jYz5XDZSD69z-Tw

[Aprilrain]

Treat your potential sex partners as if they have HIV until proven otherwise. Protect yourself with condoms, dental dams, etc. If you are not aware of various forms of protection for oral sex, anal sex, and vaginal sex...you can PM me and I can talk to you about it. I'm not saying this tongue-in-cheek. I'm being very serious. If you need me to explain how you get HIV, I can talk to you about it. If you need me to explain herpes and how it is transmitted, I can explain it. If there are pregnant women with herpes that is worried about damaging your child, I can talk about it.

What is important is that we are talking about it.

Don't share needles. Keep anyone else's blood away from your cuts and scrapes. Use sexual protection. This is all that you can do. It is true that condoms fail, but the chance of that condom failing is a lot lower than the chance of you getting an STI but not using the condom. If you are a lesbian, same thing applies.

Protection isn't full-proof, but when you have sex with people of questionable STI backgrounds...you roll the dice. That dice is likely to be a more favorable outcome if you use protection.

Thank you this is good info not that I didn't already know it but good info.
The point of the thread was to determine if 70% seemed like a reasonable figure which apparently even in the highest risk groups, IV drug using prostitutes, would be unusually high. No one is saying HIV doesn't exist or that they cant get it, what was being said was that if reasonable measures are taken the risk is acceptably low. We take risks everyday, people do the most absurd things at 70 MPH behind the wheel of a car with little thought to the risk they are putting themselves and others under yet no one is suggesting we stop driving cars. here are some "drunk driving" facts
• One person is killed every half-hour due to drunk driving
• Each year approximately 16,000 are killed in alcohol related crashes
• Alcohol is a factor in almost half of all traffic fatalities
• Every other minute a person is seriously injured in an alcohol related crash
OK great now what do I DO with this information.......WALK? hell no I need to get somewhere 20 miles away in a half hour!
we all take risks

[Sharon]

Where do I start with this thread? Do I begin with the misreading or mis-reporting of statistics; some of which that date from January of 2004; statistics that are based on a ridiculously small sample? Or how about I concentrate of the angry preaching going on here?

Okay, the basic message is a worthwhile one -- HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases should be a concern on every person who has sex -- even if you may be monogamous, has your partner been as well? But the message gets forgotten when there are so many holes in the reference material being (mis)quoted and the focus of discussion gets sidetracked.

Let's be honest here, even one percent is too high. Catching a STD is no less pleasant when you are one of a hundred rather than one of two or fewer.

I'm now closing the thread as the bickering over secondary issue has gone on long enough.

[ReineD]

This thread is popping!

I just found the latest from the CDC, dated August 2011. It reports significantly lower numbers than 70% within the community as a whole, but it does warn that transgender communities in the US are among the groups at highest risk for HIV infection:

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/transgender/pdf/transgender.pdf