Male lesbians [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

ReineD

10-07-2011, 01:04 PM

gretchen2

10-07-2011, 01:28 PM

fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

Cynthia Anne

10-07-2011, 01:43 PM

You can call me anything you want! Even a dreemian! All I know is that I love the same things that lesbians love!:D:hugs:

Kaz

10-07-2011, 01:50 PM

Eddie Izzard is a stand up comic/turned actor... he was big over here before he got to the States... his initial stance was "Action Transvestite"...ie doing it... he was always happy being a guy who liked to dress as female and who had mixed feelings about this... there is a lot of comic mileage in this juxtaposition and he cracked a rich seam... and has done well!

He is happily married (or was.. to a gorgeous woman!)... and is very hetersexual... and hence the term... male lesbian...

Simple as that... I am a male but want to present in female clothes and like female things... I also am sexually into women, not men... male lesbian!

Marie-Elise

10-07-2011, 02:08 PM

Jane G

10-07-2011, 02:18 PM

I think Kaz has summed up my thoughts on this one perfectly. I've no doubt that in medical or in phycology terms it's factually wrong, but for the purpose of simple discussion I love the idea of a male who cross-dresses and prefers women sexually, as a male lesbian. As for Eddie he's a legend and hilariously funny and a male lesbian to boot.:heehee:

Lorileah

10-07-2011, 02:28 PM

what it means is Mr Izzard is a comedian who goes for the cheap laughs. Consider this Mr Izzard if YOU are a male lesbian then that things you so like to use when you have sex between your legs...it is OFF LIMITS. No touchy no inserty. You are a lesbian remember? You are not a straight guy who thinks just because he puts on a dress he magically transforms into a woman.

Stupid phrase. It puts the MORON in oxymoron

Nesreen

10-07-2011, 02:31 PM

He did say that he's a "Male Lesbian" in an interview with Jon Stewart in the Daily Show back in 2002-2003. Also, he's a comedian so don't take everything he says too seriously.. it was a joke even though it's half true.

Sophie86

10-07-2011, 02:35 PM

I will never forget the time that a gg friend of mine kissed me on the mouth while I was dressed, and said, "I always knew you were a lesbian."

There you have it, folks. If she said it, it must be true. :D

Lorileah

10-07-2011, 02:48 PM

So you are a male lesbian. Then the women who have sex with you are????? A)Lesbians? B)Bisexuals? C)Straight women who are having sex with a transgendered male who is straight. Take your time I know it's hard to figure out. Some one here once said that just because you put frosting on your head you are not a cupcake.

If you chose A). then get ready to be celibate for awhile cuz you got the wrong parts.

And you all wonder why women have so many issues with the TG community.:Pullhair:

t-girlxsophie

10-07-2011, 02:55 PM

Eddie Izzard has done a lot for the community and is a positive influence,his comedy can be thoughtful and insicive cant accuse him of going for a cheap laugh,maybe it loses something in its journey across the atlantic.or maybe some on here have had a humour bypass

Sophie

LilSissyStevie

10-07-2011, 03:05 PM

Unfortunately, there is no pithy term for my sexuality like gay, lesbian, bi or straight. When I first heard the term “male lesbian” (from Rush Limbaugh, LOL!), I thought, “Yeah! It's kind of like that!” But, it would just as accurate to say that I'm a gay male “suffering,” to borrow a phrase from Dr. Blanchard, from “erotic target location error.” The erotic target location error in my case is that I'm a gay male bottom who is sexually attracted to females rather than other males. OK, that doesn't make any sense either. How about “lesbian identified autogynephilia” or gynephilicautogynephilia. LOL! Or, since “crossdreamer” is a nicer term for autogynephilia, one without the bogus etiology, I could say I'm a “lesbian crossdreamer.” That's close to Reine's "Dreemian." None of them really work but the fact remains that I can only satisfy a woman the way a lesbian might do it as I'm incapable of being aroused by the thought of taking the “male” role in the sexual act. For now, I'll stick with “sissy.”

Debglam

10-07-2011, 03:11 PM

Wow! The simple turn of a phrase by a comedian seems to have put some folks on attack mode! Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of this on the forum lately. :sad:

Just as food for thought, If there is no gender binary then there probably isn't a sexual orientation binary either. If there is a whole range of gender identity (which seems pretty evident on this forum) then why can't someone be a lesbian when they are "a woman" or heterosexual when they are "a man?" Maybe all of this is fluid. I don't know but does it matter? Two consenting adults and all of that.

Let's try to increase the peace a little bit. Nobody is on this forum to get kicked in the teeth!

Debby

Sophie86

10-07-2011, 03:23 PM

And you all wonder why women have so many issues with the TG community.:Pullhair:

The woman who called me a lesbian doesn't have a problem with the TG community. She's very TG friendly, and is active in the LGBT community. She attends a Unitarian church that has had lesbian pastors in the past. And she's bi. So why would she say that to me if she had a problem with it?

ReineD

10-07-2011, 03:26 PM

Maybe all of this is fluid. I don't know but does it matter? Two consenting adults and all of that.

Well, yes and no. :) I think it is fluid for people who are and who will stay somewhere in between the gender binary, such as many crossdressers. But I don't think there is a personal fluidity for MtF transsexuals, who do see themselves solidly in the female end of the binary. This might explain the strength of opinion, which I agree should be tempered a bit especially in this section of the forum. I've got to say though that CDs have occasionally had strong opinions about such things in the past as well.

Debglam

10-07-2011, 03:33 PM

Well, yes and no. :) I think it is fluid for people who are and who will stay somewhere in between the gender binary, such as many crossdressers. But I don't think there is a personal fluidity for MtF transsexuals, who do see themselves solidly in the female end of the binary. This might explain the strength of opinion, which I agree should be tempered a bit especially in this section of the forum. I've got to say though that CDs have occasionally had strong opinions about such things in the past as well.

I think you are right Reine. I'm not even positive where I stand on binary vs. range yet, although I am leaning towards the latter.

Strong opinions are encouraged but there seems to have been some flat out mean posts lately throughout this forum.

CheyenneNicky

10-07-2011, 03:35 PM

just thought i would put this out.... Those of us who dress like women feel like women who want to be with others females.... male lesbian if you want to be called that. I honestly don't care. you could say im gay in a straight man... (i do alot of gay things but i love women, could never be with a man. Penis to me is repulsive, and if i didn't like the feeling of my thing being messaged i probably wouldn't like it neither, just saying) so Melody, im sorry that your feeling were hurt by your ex's taking what you said as a joke, but you shouldn't be so negative, you seem so angry.

Kittyagain

10-07-2011, 03:39 PM

I think you are right Reine. I'm not even positive where I stand on binary vs. range yet, although I am leaning towards the latter.

Strong opinions are encouraged but there seems to have been some flat out mean posts lately throughout this forum.

I think you are right Debby. I posted a comment the other day, I wished i had not. When I do that I am not sharing an opinion I am demanding you accept it.. Not such a good way to communicate.

Kitty

Lorileah

10-07-2011, 04:00 PM

The woman who called me a lesbian doesn't have a problem with the TG community. She's very TG friendly, and is active in the LGBT community. She attends a Unitarian church that has had lesbian pastors in the past. And she's bi. So why would she say that to me if she had a problem with it?

The particular woman you are referring to may not have an issue with any LGBT thing, but remember that the majority of the women who are discussed here on these boards are not like your friend. You and I both know what she said was said in jest and that she did not think in any way that you were a lesbian (especially if she was bi...). But here is the point. When people come on these boards and cry about their SO not accepting them often it is because of something like what is being discussed here.

"Are you gay?" No but I am a lesbian trapped in a man's body under a covering of women's extremely sexy clothing. When one says "I am a lesbian" it infers that they are homosexual (by definition). So it isn't a huge leap for the woman to then assume that somewhere along the line you really want to be a woman and what do women like sexually in 90% of the cases? Men.

Labels are out there. There is no getting around them. I am sure if there were any lesbians on this board they would be offended with the flippancy in which men (yes look down you are a man) lay claim to something that they would not believe you have the right to claim.

Suck it up people you are straight men. You like having sex with females and you have male anatomy. That is straight. THink about it the next time you post here and say "My wife just doesn't get it". You aren't helping her "get it" when you throw such flippant terms around.

sometimes_miss

10-07-2011, 04:24 PM

I'm on the fence with this one. I guess you could use the term 'male lesbian' for me, because in my mind, I self identify as a female, even though I know that I am neither physically female, nor think as one or perceive the world as a woman does. So when I interact with women, personally or intimately, I see myself doing so as one as well, even though I try very hard to avoid giving that away because I know how much it is repulsive to women (witness the description in another thread of the instant effect of nausea one woman had when seeing pics of her boyfriend on his phone dressed as a female and interacting as one).

kendra_gurl

10-07-2011, 04:28 PM

ReineD

10-07-2011, 04:35 PM

Strong opinions are encouraged but there seems to have been some flat out mean posts lately throughout this forum.

Again, this is subjective. A person can read a post and find it informative albeit strongly worded (especially when people use capital letters or bold type), while for another it might push buttons and they will think it is mean. Communication is not all about how a thought is delivered. Fifty percent is about how it is received, and there can be a vast difference between the two especially when reading a typed message where there is no tone of voice or body language to convey more accurately the deliverer's state of mind. Also, you need to take into consideration vast differences in writing styles and also differences in people's abilities to convey the totality of what they mean, including their emotion.

Sometimes I'll see people arguing with each other, where I don't see much difference in what they're saying. :p

Debutante

10-07-2011, 04:42 PM

I think he is saying that he is a crossdresser, identifying as a woman, who likes women; that he is male most of the time -- hence 'male lesbian'
But then many of us transgender who dress and femulate and be women, who love women, feel they are 'lesbian', or "woman identified" in some
way, shape or form (real lesbians may not accept this... but hey, we need our space too!).
I certainly feel that way sometimes.... and my wife identified as a lesbian some years ago....

Lorileah

10-07-2011, 05:22 PM

its just an easy way to convey we are not Gay or BI we are lesbians. Of course we know its a stretch but who cares

so maybe the word "straight" would be more informative? Let me ask a question on this. A man comes to you in a bar and asks if you would like to go with him. You reply "No I am a male lesbian." Now from a man's aspect isn't that just making things worse? Now he wants to WATCH you be a male lesbian. Whereas if you say "no thank you I am straight and prefer being with a woman." tells him you have absolutely no kink he might be interested in.

Now a question for me...why am I even trying to explain this?

kimdl93

10-07-2011, 05:58 PM

Male lesbian, my wife is female gay, whatever...to borrow from Rosanne Barr (again), perhaps I'm a dyslexic gay cross dresser...

Ann Thomas

10-07-2011, 06:41 PM

I think Eddie uses the term 'male lesbian' because it does make one stop and think, gets people to smile, and gets the point across. Eddie is brilliantly intelligent and puts his whole heart into whatever he does.

In my opinion, his appearance on The Good Wife is a new image he is honing for getting involved in European politics. (He is planning on entering politics in about 9 years, roughly.) He started developing this image when he took on the character of Doug Rich a few years ago for the series The Riches. This is how he appeared when I met him a couple of years ago (picture below.)

Ann

DebbieL

10-07-2011, 06:59 PM

To be a lesbian you MUST be a female so it is stupid to
have such a notion you are a lesbian male in your head.

So many male CDers have this fantasy that they are lesbian when dressed up with their female
partners and wives when in reality the women are only appeasing your delicate male egos.

The bottom line is Lesbians don't want to be with men, they only want to be with other females!

There are a few key distinctions I think apply.

If you look like a woman and smell like a woman that's a good START.

If you can spend an hour or two in foreplay, bringing your partner to many orgasms using your fingers, mouth, and toys, that's a good indicator.

If you can satisfy both yourself and your partner, without ever pulling your "pee-wee" out of your panties, then you might actually come close.

Medody is correct though. A true lesbian would want to do wonderful things for her partner as well, and this would include going down and bringing her partner to multiple orgasms using her fingers, mouth, and toys. But the one thing she DOESN'T want is a "hot dog".

On the other hand, many bisexual women find CDs and TGs to be very desirable, if they can provide the best of both Lesbian sex AND straight sex. The best of Lesbian sex is that their TG/CD partners can do all the wonderful things their Lesbian partners do, and for as long and as intense. The best of straight sex is that she can get you off in 90 seconds or less with a vibrator while you are dressed.

I have had Lesbian lovers, and I have had several lovers who, for better or worse, said I was like a Lesbian. My first regular lover never saw my "hot dog", partly because I knew I was too small for her. She was Bi, and she publicly referred to me as her Lesbian Lover, often as a compliment, but around men, as a dig.

My first wife, after about 2 years of almost exclusively making love Lesbian Style, started saying "I'm not a Lesbian". She dressed like one, lived with one, and looked and acted more like a dyke. In reality, she was asexual, until she met Jerry, who didn't want sex. After that, she went crazy trying to seduce him.

Another lover was Bi, and brought several of her Lesbian Lovers home. At first they only wanted me to get dressed and watch, but when they saw what I did to my lover, they wanted some of the same. Ironically, one girl thought that she might be Bi after spending time with me, but when she had to deal with a real man who wanted "real" sex, things started to break down.

In the last 20 years, I've had "real" (intercourse/coitus), maybe 10 times, the last was over 6 years ago. I wear a condom because I don't want to mess up my clothes, and having my wife tease me with a vibrator while I'm dressed in something really ****tty - major turn-on.

All of my lovers after my first wife have been able to make me multi-orgasmic. Often they do it without ever seeing "pee-wee", and often I don't even get an erection. It literally LOOKS like a clit under the panties.

In my top-10 list of favorite sex acts, the usual heterosexual act doesn't even take the top 20. There are a dozen lesbian activities that top the list. Bondage is high on my list, but only when I'm dressed up and I'm the "Damsel in Distress". I'll tie my partner up if that's what she likes. The top 6 involve pleasing my partner, and none of them involve taking down my panties.

Even in my teens, I was very popular with the girls because I loved to kiss, hug, hump, and please them with my hands and mouth, but if they tried to reach into my pants, I'd be too ticklish and innocent to enjoy it. I didn't want "boy sex" even as a hand job, because I was afraid if I enjoyed it, I wouldn't want to be a girl anymore (silly me). I believed that if I "saved myself", that I could have the sex change - that somehow the approvals, resources, and actions would come.

Sadly, they never did.

Even when I conceived my Son, my Wife had me get fully dressed in a corset, stockings, and heels, and she was dressed the same. She tied me to the bed, completely gagged me, pulled the condom off the head-board, threw it in the trash, and then blind-folded me and told me that we weren't going to need the condom. I was being raped, but once I surrendered to it and let myself enjoy it, it was the best sex I'd ever had. It's still one of my favorite memories. My wife knew that this was about the ONLY way she could get me to believe that I got her pregnant.

Still, I have no illusions that I would be the perfect partner for a true Lesbian. On the other hand, many Lesbians know that their loves are bisexual, and they get very nervous when their lovers see me. They know that I can give a bisexual what she wants - without having to have two partners. However, on a few occasions, they have ended up needing a "Real Man" (someone with a nice large one) - and he didn't want to share. After that, I always checked to make sure that she could be satisfied with a nice big toy.

I think that most CDs and TGs who say they are "Lesbian" are indicating that they only like to make love while dressed, and only want to make love to women while dressed as women. But I'm guessing that most of them still want to do some of the usual boy-things with their boy toy. Great for a bisexual woman, not so great for a true Lesbian.

Rianna Humble

10-07-2011, 07:06 PM

LilSissyStevie

10-07-2011, 07:59 PM

Saying that a relationship is "straight" just because of the presence of a penis and a vagina is as informative as saying that someone is "male" just because of the presence of a Y chromosome. It works most of the time but not always. When there isn't a word for something, we have to resort to metaphors, similes, symbols and signs. It's like being a poet (or Eddie Izzard) at an aspie convention around here sometimes.

This works both ways too. Before I got married to my current wife, I was in an LTR with a woman that had a "thing" for gay porn, both visual and written. She liked to roleplay gay sex with me. I could accommodate her as long as I got to be the bottom. Except for the fact that I'm not attracted to dudes, I'm as gay as they come. Figure that one out. I couldn't crossdress around her because she wasn't attracted to feminine guys, just gay ones. It wasn't until a year or so ago that I learned there was a name for her particular "fetish": girlfag. A girlfag is described as a "gay man trapped in a womans body" or sometimes as a woman attracted to gay and/or effeminate males. The opposite of that is a guydyke or a "lesbian trapped in a mans body" (sort of like a male lesbian) or a guy attracted to lesbians and/or masculine women. Girlfags and girlfag fantasies are a lot more common than I ever would have thought. Even my wife admits she fantasizes about having a real penis sometimes. But she never thinks of herself as being anything but a woman, just as I always see myself as male (sort of). So that is the only sense that our relationship is "straight."

docrobbysherry

10-07-2011, 08:22 PM

I'm trying to remember the "double negative" rule from my 6th grade English class.

If I remember it correctly, I may be a, "Female lesbian"?

Melody Moore

10-07-2011, 08:47 PM

First, I agree with Melody. It's a fantasy that combines the sexual desire to be a woman with wanting to be with a woman. The term 'male lesbian' is not accurate, since 'lesbian' refers to a sexual attraction one woman has for another.

But second, I've come up with a new term we can all use to describe a male whose sexual fantasy is to be a woman WITH a woman: "dreemian". :) No one can ever argue about the term's ambiguity (like "male lesbian"), and following is the reason I propose "dreemian":

The term "lesbian" was constructed in the 20th Century to describe homosexual women. It is derived from an ancient Greek poetess, Sappho, who was born on the island of Lesbos in Greece and who wrote about her love of other women.

So, I propose using the term, "dreemian", after "Cecil Dreeme", a 19th century novel by Theodore Winthrop. The story's protagonist falls in love with a person he thought was a man (Cecil Dreeme), but who turns out to be a woman thought dead who is in hiding at the college they are attending. The novel's philosophical discussions center around the nature of male/female, manly/unmanly, womanly/unwomanly, and effeminate and langourous behavior.

http://www.nyu.edu/library/bobst/collections/exhibits/bobst/washsq/voices/cd.

I think the term "dreemian" is apt, since it can also be seen as an alternative spelling to "dream" which is another word for fantasy. :)
Well said Reine, it is nice to see that someone gets it ;)

The bottom line is lesbians don't usually want anything to do with someone that has a penis
or is male even just for a smidgen of even the tiniest part of their lives. The minute a lesbian
sees the male side of a trans-woman it is all over. Personally I don't have this issue since
the lesbians I know see me as a natal female anyway because they know I am intersex. And
that it was a huge mistake that I was ever surgically assigned the sex of a male. I am very
well accepted by my local Lesbian group and partake in all the functions. And some girls have
told me that there are M-F transgendered people in the community that they cannot accept
as being female - so they also have their own ideas about what is really male & what is female.

Another great example are M-F tranny chasers or trans admirers to be more polite. These men
cannot claim to be straight if they want to perform oral sex on you or have you perform anal sex
on them. None of this is my cup of tea, so needless to say that they got told I was not interested.

Many men have contacted me claiming to be straight, but when I told then I was pre-op they then
admitted to me they had no issues, most admitting they were bicurious or bisexual, so they are not
heterosexual like they claim to be. Because they want a trans woman who looks like a real woman
because to them and it is more socially acceptable. The amount of guys that have tried to talk me
out of GRS/SRS has also really shocked me I never realised that there was so many men out there
that had these types fantasies about trans women with gay tendencies and I say this because they
don't really want to have sex with me as a female, they want me to have gay type sex with them as
a male which is something that I simply cannot do - it does not turn me on one single bit, but neither
does penetrative type sex with another female.

For me it is about the softness, gentleness, emotional intimacy that only two women can really share with each
other. I don't see how a CD/TV who isn't on HRT can even come close to that because there are huge changes
that you go through if you are on hormones that make that whole experience completely different especially on
an emotional level. Softer and much more sensitive skin without course male body hair and facial hair stubble also
makes a huge difference when you are in bed with a woman in a lesbian relationship. I was talking to a lesbian friend
recently who told me that she still thought she was bisexual and still liked being with guys, but the minute a guy
kissed her and she felt the stubble it was over and now she realises that she is in fact a lesbian who wants to be
with a real woman.

Being a female is much more than just dressing up as a female and claiming "I am a lesbian". For a start to get a
gender identity recognition certificate as a female if you are a birth male, then you have to be living full-time as
a female, on hormone therapy and under the care of a psychologist who makes that identification themselves to
support your claims.

However I can't expect a CDer to understand any of this, because they have never been on hormones
to know how things really are different in a real lesbian relationship, both physically and emotionally.

All of my lovers after my first wife have been able to make me multi-orgasmic. Often they do it without ever seeing "pee-wee", and often I don't even get an erection. It literally LOOKS like a clit under the panties.
Who cares about what you think 'it' looks like? To me and to other woman it is still a penis regardless - so get use to it.

CDers are living a fantasy and way out of touch with if they think they are a lesbian male. :heehee:

I think Reine's suggestion about identifying this group as dreemian :daydreaming: is very appropriate by the way ;)

Sophie86

10-07-2011, 08:59 PM

The particular woman you are referring to may not have an issue with any LGBT thing, but remember that the majority of the women who are discussed here on these boards are not like your friend. You and I both know what she said was said in jest and that she did not think in any way that you were a lesbian (especially if she was bi...).

So you think this thread is a serious discussion about whether MtF CDs who prefer women are really females, and therefore are really lesbians. That's what you think the discussion is about?

But here is the point. When people come on these boards and cry about their SO not accepting them often it is because of something like what is being discussed here.

That's their problem. My SO likes me just fine, whether I jokingly refer to myself as a "male lesbian" or not.

When one says "I am a lesbian" it infers that they are homosexual (by definition). So it isn't a huge leap for the woman to then assume that somewhere along the line you really want to be a woman and what do women like sexually in 90% of the cases? Men.

No, I would say it's a huge freakin' leap to go from "I'm a 'male lesbian'" to "I'm a gay male." The former is obviously a way of saying, "When I'm dressed, I still like women." It has nothing to do with wanting a man.

I am sure if there were any lesbians on this board they would be offended with the flippancy in which men (yes look down you are a man) lay claim to something that they would not believe you have the right to claim.

And yet, my friend had no problem with flippantly applying the term to me. I think we should let lesbians speak for themselves. Some of them might have a sense of humor.

Suck it up people you are straight men.

NO!! REALLY???? Thank you for solving what has been a life-long puzzle for me!

When you say 'people', are you including all the pre-op TS's too? They're also men, because they have that anatomy? I'm sure they'll be happy to know that.

And I guess you also have a problem with the way we address each other using feminine pronouns, too, right? And the way we refer to each other as 'girl'? We're not really women, so we should not be entitled to those forms of address either, according to your logic.

In the British navy, back in the days of sailing ships, any officer in command of a sailing ship was addressed as 'Captain', regardless of whether he actually held that rank or not. He was considered a 'Captain by courtesy', though not by rank. It was bad form to refer to him any other way. On this board, I am a woman by courtesy. I expect to be referred to using feminine pronouns, and feminine nouns. Since I am a woman by courtesy, and I prefer sex with women, I am also a lesbian by courtesy.

Using courtesy, though, is always at your discretion.

vetobob9

10-07-2011, 09:06 PM

I would think that is a MtF undergoes SRS, they would be lesbians if they still preferred women. Especially after they had undergone the surgery.

NathalieX66

10-07-2011, 09:12 PM

Once I've gotten a few more rounds of laser done, i'm stepping into some lesbian bars, I'm going to try to blend in.. It's really more of a confidence issue for me. I've got 3-5 months of hair left on the front side to not need a wig anymore. I don't know what willl happen yet.
My last foray into a lez bar was me in a navy minidress, and I stood out as a CD'er.
In reality, I just want to be one of the girls, so I will tone it down a bit. My goal in life is to be as gender ambiguous as possible.

Melody Moore

10-07-2011, 09:56 PM

When you say 'people', are you including all the pre-op TS's too? They're also men,
because they have that anatomy? I'm sure they'll be happy to know that.

No they were never men at all, they were however "males at birth", but have been identified by medical
professionals as being a transsexual female and there is a huge distinction between this and a crossdresser.

Even though I tried really hard and managed to fool a lot of people I was a really a man, I was born intersex
and never was a man to begin with - I was an intersex child at birth and assigned as a male at the age of 3.

While some people might consider them to still be male because of the boy bits, a medical diagnosis has been
made and the 'female' undergoes therapy and treatments to correct misalignment between a person's gender
identity and their physical sex and sexology this is something a crossdresser never does. So I don't know how
they can claim to be a female or a lesbian in the first place.

LilSissyStevie

10-07-2011, 10:05 PM

The bottom line is lesbians don't usually want anything to do with someone that has a penis...

That's so untrue it's funny. They just don't want the penis attached to a male.

I don't know why some people have to wander out of their self-imposed ghetto to yell in our faces, "YOU ARE NOT ONE OF US!." OK. Fine. We get it. You've made your point. Now bugger off!

Oh, and thanks Reine for creating a new epithet for the haters to hurl around.

Melody Moore

10-07-2011, 10:35 PM

That's so untrue it's funny. They just don't want the penis attached to a male.
Yeah, really farkin' hilarious eh?

Yes there are many lesbians who really like using dildos, and you are right it is mostly the person connected
to the penis that is the real issue. In my lesbian group for which I am an admin (http://www.facebook.com/gracewomensgroup), crossdressers do not cut it as
women and this has been expressed by quite a few of members many times. But they have no issues with the
Male to Female Transsexuals being part of the group and attending social functions. So I wonder why that is eh?

Could it be because they don't feel safe and have an issue with a guy who dresses up pretending to be a woman? :daydreaming:

So how many M-F crossdressers do you see here in this lesbian group? (http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.244643858907799.56080.215476965157822&type=3) I can tell you now there
are zitch, however there are at least three pre-op trans-women there they do accept as females. :)

Oh, and thanks Reine for creating a new epithet for the haters to hurl around.
I also wanted to comment how you try and lay the blame on Reine for this. I really think this section of the
crossdressing community only has themselves to blame to be really honest because this IS how others see them.

My experiences with Reine since joining this forum have been very positive and eye opening. I find this natal female
to be very well informed & to the best of my knowledge IS in a relationship with a M-F crossdressing partner. So she
is your ally here, not your enemy who I believe speaks a lot of truth.

And since I have been a member of this forum, I have never known Reine to make any ill-informed comments. In
fact it is quite the opposite, usually she backs up her comments as she has done with facts, just like the few
facts of life that I have just pointed out. I have found Reine to be very fair, open minded and non-judgemental
and I always enjoy reading her posts because they usually are very informative as she has also found some of
mine to also be.

Just recently we were discussing the topic the amount of TS women who are lesbians, we got a little off topic
discussing the why so many men out there who claim to be straight chase trans women. And what I have also
noticed is that crossdressers also live in a fantasy about the men they date, thinking they are being treated as
real women.

I also found the same trend when I had it written up on my profile that I was TS on a social networking/dating site.

The interesting thing was all the guys who contacted me had listed their sexual orientations as "Straight". However
about 80% of them had no issues admitting to me they were either bisexual or bi-curious & had no issues about being
with someone like me. It was a very interesting and eye-opening exercise because many revealed they had repressed
gender issues and fantasies. Eventually I got sick of it and removed the info about my gender status from my profile.
So I posted this comment (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?160666-Ever-wonder-why-a-disproportinate-number-of-trans-girls-are-lesbian&p=2617246&viewfull=1#post2617246) talking about my experiences with men who sought out TS women and Reine replied
with this comment (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?160666-Ever-wonder-why-a-disproportinate-number-of-trans-girls-are-lesbian&p=2617361&viewfull=1#post2617361) highlighting the fact along with links to support her statement that many crossdressers are
kidding themselves if they think the men they are dating are treating them like a female. The reality is these men
see the CDer as a gay cross-dressing male. It is a similar thing with men who go out of their way to find pre-op
trans women nowadays thanks to she-male porn - this isn't what I seek, but this is what is really going on.

I have come to the conclusion that crossdressers do often kid themselves about many things, they also wander
in and out of my life now as the coordinator for my support group trying to find out where they fit in the gender
spectrum. And they also kid themselves quite a bit in their relationships with both males and females from what
I can see. You can disagree with this if you want but these are just my few observations and experiences.

I keep an open mind to everything, but I have seen enough evidence to support the belief that M-F Crossdressers
and natal females along with trans women are world's apart. Lesbians have less issues being around trans women
than they do crossdressers and as you can see I have seen this for my self as a member of a lesbian group.

ReineD

10-08-2011, 05:34 AM

My SO likes me just fine, whether I jokingly refer to myself as a "male lesbian" or not.

But Sophie, there's the difference. I don't think anyone would fault a CD who says he is a male lesbian if he says it jokingly and others know it is a joke. And it may well be that others here says it jokingly as well, but I'm under the impression that some CDs do think they are lesbian. It just doesn't make sense to use this term, unless we are prepared to change the meaning of the word 'lesbian'. A wife whose acceptance is precarious, will believe that if her husband thinks of himself as a lesbian, then it must surely mean he believes he is a woman. It's just a confusing term, even if it is a fun thing to say.

A more accurate way to describe the sexual preference of a CD who likes women (and who doesn't like to think of himself as male when dressed), is "gynephile" (a lover of women). Also, I quite agree with Lorileah's point. Any CD who uses his male parts when having sex with women while dressed is not behaving like a lesbian.

No, I would say it's a huge freakin' leap to go from "I'm a 'male lesbian'" to "I'm a gay male." The former is obviously a way of saying, "When I'm dressed, I still like women." It has nothing to do with wanting a man.

When I hear the term "male lesbian", I think of a pre-op TS who is still a biological male although this is waning due to HRT, since she has no functioning penis. The 'lesbian' part identifies her as a woman, not a man, and it is just a question of time before the 'male' part is dropped. And of course a post-op (or non-op) TS can drop the 'male' part and simply say she is a lesbian. (There are TSs who for a variety of reasons cannot have SRS).

I don't know why some people have to wander out of their self-imposed ghetto to yell in our faces, "YOU ARE NOT ONE OF US!." OK. Fine. We get it. You've made your point. Now bugger off!

Oh, and thanks Reine for creating a new epithet for the haters to hurl around.

It is not the people in this thread who are saying that CDs are not included in the lesbian community. It is the lesbians themselves who do not want relationships with men who have penises. (Generally speaking). I'm sorry, but it is what it is. The people in this thread who are arguing against using the term "male lesbian" are simply advocating for a term that better reflects the reality of life in the lesbian community. Honestly, any CD who walks into a lesbian bar and announces himself as a male lesbian, wouldn't be taken seriously. And if he is married to a hetero GG, then his wife won't take kindly to being the second half of a lesbian couple.

... but, if both partners are OK with any term they wish to call themselves, then all is good! :)

hotskirt

10-08-2011, 09:10 AM

I'm a Lesbian in a male body. I only like women

sara.s

10-08-2011, 10:25 AM

I am a mtf crossdressing trans-man.. Does that make sense? :p

Sophie86

10-08-2011, 12:46 PM

But Sophie, there's the difference. I don't think anyone would fault a CD who says he is a male lesbian if he says it jokingly and others know it is a joke. And it may well be that others here says it jokingly as well, but I'm under the impression that some CDs do think they are lesbian.

The thread started with a quote from a comedian, and got several humorous responses. The only people I've seen taking it seriously are the ones condemning the term.

It just doesn't make sense to use this term, unless we are prepared to change the meaning of the word 'lesbian'.

Then it doesn't make any sense to use the terms 'she', 'her', and 'girl' when talking about CDs either, yet we do. Are you going to crusade against that usage also? Wouldn't that be far more upsetting to a wife who doesn't understand us than the term "male lesbian?" At least using the latter affirms that we are male.

A wife whose acceptance is precarious, will believe that if her husband thinks of himself as a lesbian, then it must surely mean he believes he is a woman. It's just a confusing term, even if it is a fun thing to say.

That's between him and his wife. One might be inclined to offer him some gentle advice on the subject, but I don't see any reason for strident condemnation.

A more accurate way to describe the sexual preference of a CD who likes women (and who doesn't like to think of himself as male when dressed), is "gynephile" (a lover of women).

I have no problem with that term, but it's not one that would communicate anything to most people, whereas "male lesbian" is instantly recognizable.

Also, I quite agree with Lorileah's point. Any CD who uses his male parts when having sex with women while dressed is not behaving like a lesbian.

Yeah, I don't get that. First of all, it's male lesbian, so of course we're using our male parts, and second of all, lesbians have been known to make use of male parts during sex.

When I hear the term "male lesbian", I think of a pre-op TS who is still a biological male although this is waning due to HRT, since she has no functioning penis. The 'lesbian' part identifies her as a woman, not a man, and it is just a question of time before the 'male' part is dropped. And of course a post-op (or non-op) TS can drop the 'male' part and simply say she is a lesbian. (There are TSs who for a variety of reasons cannot have SRS).

I think it's considered rude to refer to a pre-op TS as "male" just because the surgery hasn't taken place yet.

It is not the people in this thread who are saying that CDs are not included in the lesbian community. It is the lesbians themselves who do not want relationships with men who have penises.

Okay, but us using this term doesn't somehow trap them into an obligation to have sex with us. I haven't seen anyone here argue that lesbians should want to have sex with CDs just because we wear dresses. :confused:

Honestly, any CD who walks into a lesbian bar and announces himself as a male lesbian, wouldn't be taken seriously. And if he is married to a hetero GG, then his wife won't take kindly to being the second half of a lesbian couple.

That's good advice for anyone who was confused on that score, but the desire to give advice doesn't explain the angry tone that some people were taking. It doesn't explain why we were being told "suck it up people you are straight men."

Ellepet

10-08-2011, 01:53 PM

I hesitated to post again on this thread as I'm a new member and getting my feet wet but Sophie's last post was so clear to me. I am new to understanding the cross dressing and a few others things my SO recently shared with me but I'm not new to labels and those that feel somehow justified in using them to describe not only themselves.

I've been labeled a freak my whole life. First by the mother that "bought" me, used me, then by the group I learned to feel the first gentle touch, love and acceptance. Women. My partner was a lesbian and truly loved me. Many of her friends hated me because I was "bi" so really denying my true sexuality. Only I wasn't at all. They were full of crap.

I am very feminine yet enjoy many male interests and hobbies. My friends tell me all the time I'm a "guy" except for some men that wanted or saw a woman so lacked any respect for what I did know as I was "just" a woman.*

I've read on here men that dreamed of waking up as a woman. Well, I've done that too. Dreamed of waking up with a penis. Because I'm wanting to be a man? No, because I associated that with strength and aggression and force and I so desperately needed that at that time.

I'm none of those things and all those things at the same time. I first posted on this thread because it was the first thing I joked about with my SO. Do I view him as a lesbian. Hell, no, but it resonated a bit with me and helped me understand a bit and he confirmed that my understanding was correct. For him. For us.*

I apologize if I am overstepping or being disrespectful. No one owns pain or can determine what thought process works for another. One thing I've learned is how truly useless and far off the mark labels have been for me. As far as the original post....still love Eddie.

Debutante

10-08-2011, 02:22 PM

That's wonderful to hear, Sophie! It's a compliment in many ways...

ReineD

10-08-2011, 04:20 PM

I think it's considered rude to refer to a pre-op TS as "male" just because the surgery hasn't taken place yet.

You've made many points but the only one I want to address specifically is this one. I want to make it clear that I do not think of any M2F TS as being male. Period. If you go back and read my post, you'll see that I said, "When I hear the term "male lesbian" ...". It is not a term that I use, and it is the "lesbian" part of the term that makes me think of a TS when I do hear it. This is why I am confused when I hear a CD use the term.

You do have a point about referring to CDs as "she" rather than "he". I refer to my own SO as "she" in this forum sometimes depending on the context, and I certainly address her by her femme name when she is dressed. You're correct, this is a question of courtesy, since it is odd to address someone who is fully dressed by his guy name. And in my case, I respect that my SO identifies as both genders, and so when I refer to her as a "she" it is more than just being courteous. When I use the gender pronouns I do refer to an internal gender ID though, and not a biological sex.

I do think of the term "lesbian" as referring to a biological sex, and crossdressers are not genetic women. TSs who are undergoing HRT even if they don't have SRS yet (or if they never will because they can't for a variety of reasons), and who have made a commitment to live 24/7 are not genetic women either. But, they've gone as far as they possibly can, given current medical constraints, to align their physical bodies to their gender ID. Therefore, in my view they have every right to consider themselves lesbian if they are attracted to women.

But a CD who also cherishes his male persona? No. Using the term "lesbian" is confusing at best, and some might even view it as making a mockery of both the genetic women and the TSs who have made a commitment to live as women. Further, some may even view it as being offensive in the same way as "*******" and "chick with dick" are offensive. If "male lesbian" is said lightheartedly in jest, that's fine as long as everyone understands it is a joke. But to repeat a point I made in my prior post, I doubt that most CDs who call themselves lesbian do say it as a joke, regardless of the light way in which the topic was introduced in this particular thread. And as often happens in any forum, the people who are addressing the topic in this thread are addressing the larger picture and not just Eddy Izzard.

Again, if a married CD seriously considers himself a lesbian and his wife has no objection to this? That's fine. But to go around saying that hetero dressed CDs are lesbian as is often said in this forum is too much of a stretch for me. It's like saying they are straight, when they have sex with men while dressed. :rolleyes:

Momarie

10-08-2011, 05:04 PM

. But to go around saying that hetero dressed CDs are lesbian as is often said in this forum is too much of a stretch for me. It's like saying they are straight, when they have sex with men while dressed.

I agree.

I also think FAB lesbians deserve their own space based on their life experiences apart from the "male world".
I believe one should embrace who they are without treading on others. :meditate:

kellycan27

10-08-2011, 05:12 PM

What's wrong with addressing a cder as He? According to a lot of them .. they are men who just like to wear the clothing and have no desire to be a "her". Are we just to assume that everyone who dresses as a girl wants people to consider them a girl? Maybe instead of making an assumption we should just refer to them in a manner such as he/she ( circle which applies to you). You can't always tell the players without a program. This way we may be able to avoid alienating either one side or the other. Once we know who's who we can address them accordingly :heehee:

Kelly

Melody Moore

10-08-2011, 06:07 PM

Sophie, we KNOW this thread started off from a quote made by a comedian the sad part is that
there are male to female crossdressers who claim to be a 'Male Lesbian" or "Lesbian Male". And
also here you are arguing against a natal female who has solid facts to prove that there is no
such thing as a "Male Lesbian" and I have also posted proof that my own lesbian community does
not accept MtF Cross-dressers as lesbians because they are not really females, however they do
accept pre-op MtF Transsexuals as females because they are also genuine females they can trust.

There are far too many MtF Crossdressers who do take themselves far too seriously and fail to even
realise the truth about who they really are and their sexual orientations.

The fact is that a Birth Male who has not been diagnosed with GID and is just a cross-dresser IS nothing
more than a heterosexual male when they are with a female. A MtF Crossdresser with another man is also
nothing more than a gay man with another gay man - these are simple facts of life that some people here
just have to face up to. And if you missed this post if mine (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?161345-Male-lesbians&p=2619248&viewfull=1#post2619248), then I urge you to go back and read it.

Because the reality is if you believe that you are a "Male Lesbian" then you really are dreemian (http://www.nyu.edu/library/bobst/collections/exhibits/bobst/washsq/voices/cd.html) :daydreaming:

Thanks for the new label Reine - I am seriously going to use this one from now on. Thanks ;) :heehee:

ReineD

10-08-2011, 06:18 PM

What's wrong with addressing a cder as He? According to a lot of them .. they are men who just like to wear the clothing and have no desire to be a "her". Are we just to assume that everyone who dresses as a girl wants people to consider them a girl?

Many CDs have an elastic internal gender ID, unlike TSs and cisgenders. To persist in "he-ing" a CD when she is dressed is not being sensitive to her desire to present as a woman. Do all CDs feel this way? Likely not. We have several CDs here who have male names, and I would never refer to such CDs as "she". Using "he/she" is not a bad idea in a general sense, but it is bulky and it assumes the CD always identifies as a mixture of both internally. This is not always the case.

I'm pretty sure that most people here prefer to be referred to as a "she" (assuming for the closeted CDs that their time on this site is their girly time), and I trust that if they didn't, they'd change their user name, or find another way to tell us, such as posting something in their signatures.

kellycan27

10-08-2011, 06:59 PM

Many CDs have an elastic internal gender ID, unlike TSs and cisgenders. To persist in "he-ing" a CD when she is dressed is not being sensitive to her desire to present as a woman. Do all CDs feel this way? Likely not. We have several CDs here who have male names, and I would never refer to such CDs as "she". Using "he/she" is not a bad idea in a general sense, but it is bulky and it assumes the CD always identifies as a mixture of both internally. This is not always the case.

I'm pretty sure that most people here prefer to be referred to as a "she" (assuming for the closeted CDs that their time on this site is their girly time), and I trust that if they didn't, they'd change their user name, or find another way to tell us, such as posting something in their signatures.

And we have many with female names as well, who don't identify as women. Doesn't matter to me, I was just saying that it's hard to know who wants what? "Assuming" may be okay, but it still goes back to my point ( silly as it was)

kimdl93

10-08-2011, 07:05 PM

Speaking only for myself, as a CDr leaning more towards the I want more than the clothes end of the spectrum, I've had several women ask me if I prefer he or she when en femme. I aways prefer she/her, but my feelings aren't wounded if I'm called a he. I find most SAs automatically call me mam or miss.

sara.s

10-08-2011, 07:07 PM

If I am dressed and kiss a GG, it would be a heterosexual kiss to me, but would it be lesbian thing to her and any onlookers?

On another note, say i am at a bar and a guy tries to flirt with me.. what is the appropriate thing to say?
A) i am heterosexual
B) lesbian
C) i am not into guys
D) lesbian trapped in a mans body :D
E) I am sorry I am a Gynephile
Guy: :eek: omg, What is that.. something like pedeophile?
Me: No no...It means I love women
Guy: Hell yeah, I am a gynephile too.. :p

F) I am a dreemian
Guy: what are you dreaming about?
Me: I am DREEMIAN, which means i love to dress as a woman and make love to a woman..
Guy: :Angry3:Fag

I am just trying to be humorous here please don't be hard on me.

ReineD

10-08-2011, 07:34 PM

^ There'd be no point in using any language in a bar that people don't hear on TV. lol. They'd think you're weird if you said anything other than C) I'm not into guys. "Heterosexual" might even be too big a word for some people. :p

(you misspelled "dreemian". lol. It's with two "e"s. :))

And we have many with female names as well, who don't identify as women.

Kel, you should start a thread, asking which of all the female-named members here do not wish to be either addressed by their femme name when out in public, or referred to as "she" in here. Then, we'll know! :)

sara.s

10-08-2011, 07:44 PM

1 more Option..
G) interrupt him, and ask him whether i pass and look sexy!!, did my makeup correctly, added right amount of blush blah blah blah.... and finally buy him a beer as a thank you note :battingeyelashes:

Kel, you should start a thread, asking which of all the female-named members here do not wish to be either addressed by their femme name when out in public, or referred to as "she" in here. Then, we'll know! :)

I wouldn mind being addressed as he in cd meet or on this site (we all know who i am)... but in public its a different story..

vetobob9

10-08-2011, 08:09 PM

But Sophie, there's the difference. I don't think anyone would fault a CD who says he is a male lesbian if he says it jokingly and others know it is a joke. And it may well be that others here says it jokingly as well, but I'm under the impression that some CDs do think they are lesbian. It just doesn't make sense to use this term, unless we are prepared to change the meaning of the word 'lesbian'. A wife whose acceptance is precarious, will believe that if her husband thinks of himself as a lesbian, then it must surely mean he believes he is a woman. It's just a confusing term, even if it is a fun thing to say.

A more accurate way to describe the sexual preference of a CD who likes women (and who doesn't like to think of himself as male when dressed), is "gynephile" (a lover of women). Also, I quite agree with Lorileah's point. Any CD who uses his male parts when having sex with women while dressed is not behaving like a lesbian.

When I hear the term "male lesbian", I think of a pre-op TS who is still a biological male although this is waning due to HRT, since she has no functioning penis. The 'lesbian' part identifies her as a woman, not a man, and it is just a question of time before the 'male' part is dropped. And of course a post-op (or non-op) TS can drop the 'male' part and simply say she is a lesbian. (There are TSs who for a variety of reasons cannot have SRS).

It is not the people in this thread who are saying that CDs are not included in the lesbian community. It is the lesbians themselves who do not want relationships with men who have penises. (Generally speaking). I'm sorry, but it is what it is. The people in this thread who are arguing against using the term "male lesbian" are simply advocating for a term that better reflects the reality of life in the lesbian community. Honestly, any CD who walks into a lesbian bar and announces himself as a male lesbian, wouldn't be taken seriously. And if he is married to a hetero GG, then his wife won't take kindly to being the second half of a lesbian couple.

... but, if both partners are OK with any term they wish to call themselves, then all is good! :)

I think it interesting that lesbians changed the meaning of the word marriage, and now some lesbians may be complaining that some people might be trying to change the meaning of the word lesbian.

Most interesting.

kimdl93

10-08-2011, 09:56 PM

I rather doubt that any lesbians participated in this discussion.

kellycan27

10-08-2011, 10:03 PM

^ There'd be no point in using any language in a bar that people don't hear on TV. lol. They'd think you're weird if you said anything other than C) I'm not into guys. "Heterosexual" might even be too big a word for some people. :p

(you misspelled "dreemian". lol. It's with two "e"s. :))

Kel, you should start a thread, asking which of all the female-named members here do not wish to be either addressed by their femme name when out in public, or referred to as "she" in here. Then, we'll know! :)

Now we have people who say... it depends on the setting on whether they want to be called him or her :eek: There's no answer !:heehee:

Sophie86

10-08-2011, 11:23 PM

And we have many with female names as well, who don't identify as women. Doesn't matter to me, I was just saying that it's hard to know who wants what? "Assuming" may be okay, but it still goes back to my point ( silly as it was)

It's very simple. If the person is using a femme name on the forum, use femme pronouns. If the person is out and about presenting as female, use femme pronouns. If they still want to be addressed as 'he' while dressed as a 'she', they'll let you know. Very few would feel that way.

Back on the subject of the term "male lesbian"....

I have not gotten a satisfactory answer to the question of why this phrase does not fall under the same rule as using femme nouns and pronouns when referring to us. 'She', 'her', 'lady' and 'girl' are okay, but not 'lesbian'. It's widely agreed that while presenting as women it is proper for us to use the women's bathroom. We can invade that women's sanctuary, but for some reason we can't appropriate the term 'lesbian' to describe our sexual attraction towards women while presenting as female. There's no logic in that.

The OP asked what does the term "male lesbian" mean to you. I see a lot of people trying to rationalize their negative reaction to the term by saying that CDs can't be lesbians because we're not really female (duh), or that the term is offensive to some third party. No, that's not it. If you want me to understand the real issue here, tell me why the term offends you.

Lip5tick_Li5a

10-08-2011, 11:33 PM

I've never seriously called myself a male lesbian, but I tend to have a lot of lesbian friends and I've been called a "guydyke" more than a few times. Even one of my gay male friends remarked that I was like a lesbian in a guy's body. But I'm not claiming this as an identity or anything, I'm just a boy who happens to connect really well with lesbians. I don't analyze WHY this is. If the people who I happened to befriend are gay girls, then whatever. They're awesome to hang out with.

Though it does become a complication when I like them BETTER than straight girls and want to be exclusive, but that's life. I'd never try to cross orientation barriers on the flimsy excuse that I "feel" like a lesbian. Besides, there are always bisexual girls who are like the universal blood type and have what I like about lesbians but with the hope of a real relationship.

eluuzion

10-09-2011, 01:06 AM

It always strikes me a little funny when I read all of these discussions/debates emphasizing the importance of being identified "properly", when many of the participants involved use an alias.:heehee:

I was just thinking, or maybe just pretending I was...but

I have been a ("whatever I am") for over 20 years. After being a member here and absorbing all of the different variations in "titles" and explanations for each, I still have no idea what I technically "am", or for that matter what anybody here really is for sure. It does not seem many here really know either, what they "are" for sure, on any given day.

In most of the threads/posts I read, for me, the poster's "proper" title was irrelevant to grasping the topics and points presented. The central understanding is that the information shared all revolves around issues stemming from wearing female clothing on a body that is...or began as...a male body, right? In my mind, any person associated with that issue, regardless of current "status" has topical feedback to offer. If you turn out to be an alien from outer space that wears female clothing, it still has relevance here, right? Or, did I miss something?

Anyway, there is only one logical way to completely resolve these endless member debates about to which category each person "technically" belongs. It does not require a genius, just simple logic and common sense. Each person simply gets their very own unique category. Everybody by default, is "right".

There...all better.:heehee:

Of course that puts all of us back where we all began...feeling "all alone" in the world by not having anybody like "me" to talk to. But hey, at least we all end up being "right"...right? left? :doh:

Yo...I am not complaining here, or intend any disrespect, as I do find it entertaining to observe, so feel free to continue...

Just a thought. Not trying to invite any argument. If you are...I'll save us both some time..."I give, you 'Win'"...there, all better. :hugs:

:love:

crystalann

10-09-2011, 01:42 AM

It seems like an oxymoron, but what do I know?:idontknow:

Melody Moore

10-09-2011, 02:47 AM

It seems like an oxymoron, but what do I know?:idontknow:
"Male Lesbian" just doesn't seem like an oxymoron, because it really is one by proper definition - so good call ;)

girlygirly

10-09-2011, 03:01 AM

I've had pretty good success with the term "male lesbian", and don't see it as a big issue like some here do. I'm a guy, I like to dress up like a girl, and I definitely have a girly side, because I don't own any men's clothing.

I don't like wearing dresses or anything like that in public, because I wouldn't feel like taking the time to try and pass. When it comes down to it, I dress pretty "butch" a fair bit of the time.

I have no interest in having sex with men, just like most female lesbians.

I have had sex with couple different women who claimed to have given up on men, and had started having sex with women. They identified with lesbians, and had only had sex with other women in the months prior to us having sex. I used my penis, and they seemed to enjoy it.

I don't take any of it all that seriously, but If a lady seemed offended I would just drop the term when I was around her.

Rianna Humble

10-09-2011, 03:29 AM

As with Eddie Izzard, the first half of the term correctly describes you. If you liked to dress up as a gorilla when you have sex with a woman, would you say that you were engaging in bestiality? I very much doubt that you would. What you engaged in with these women who had almost given up on men was straightforward heterosexual relations, albeit with a little bit of role play. You underline the fact by mentioning that you used your male genitalia to bring them enjoyment.

silkeze

10-09-2011, 03:42 AM

I dont care what you call me, just don't call me late to supper!

Melody Moore

10-09-2011, 04:25 AM

What you engaged in with these women who had almost given up on men was straightforward heterosexual relations, albeit with a little bit of role play. You underline the fact by mentioning that you used your male genitalia to bring them enjoyment.

Well said Rianna, this guy is really kidding himself to be calling himself a "male lesbian". I have been chatting to a few of
my girlfriends from my local lesbians group about this topic this weekend and they think its very funny that guys think
they can claim to be a "male lesbian". :heehee: A trans-woman yes, but a Male Crossdresser - no way! I would so dearly love
for this guy to walk into one of our events claiming to be a "male lesbian", Meh thinks that the scene would get very
ugly fast that there would be very little left of this person after making such an outlandish claim and statement.

The butch lesbians alone would eat him for breakfast only stopping
to spit out the bones of a fake imposing themselves on their girls:rofl:

It takes a LOT more than simply dressing up as a female to be truly accepted as a female, especially by a lesbian community
and I should know something about this because I do actually belong to one, not like others here who are still dreemian (http://www.nyu.edu/library/bobst/collections/exhibits/bobst/washsq/voices/cd.html) :daydreaming:

Beth-Lock

10-09-2011, 05:08 AM

Let us get real. TO BE A LESBIAN YOU HAVE TO BE A REAL WOMAN. All the rest is metaphor or attempts at neologism.

Still, this has been a brilliant discussion.

Sarasometimes

10-09-2011, 08:41 AM

It is a funny way to answer the "If you dress in women's clothes then you must be gay." idea. No, I'm a lesbian when dressed, because I still am only attracted to women. Eddie probably thought it quicker and funnier than the whole serious explanation about gender expression being different from sexual orientation. Kinda tough to make that speach sound funny.

Sophie86

10-09-2011, 09:37 AM

Well said Rianna, this guy is really kidding himself to be calling himself a "male lesbian". I have been chatting to a few of
my girlfriends from my local lesbians group about this topic this weekend and they think its very funny that guys think
they can claim to be a "male lesbian". :heehee: A trans-woman yes, but a Male Crossdresser - no way! I would so dearly love
for this guy to walk into one of our events claiming to be a "male lesbian", Meh thinks that the scene would get very
ugly fast that there would be very little left of this person after making such an outlandish claim and statement.

The butch lesbians alone would eat him for breakfast only stopping
to spit out the bones of a fake imposing themselves on their girls:rofl:

It takes a LOT more than simply dressing up as a female to be truly accepted as a female, especially by a lesbian community
and I should know something about this because I do actually belong to one, not like others here who are still dreemian (http://www.nyu.edu/library/bobst/collections/exhibits/bobst/washsq/voices/cd.html) :daydreaming:

This is just priceless. A claim of transwoman superiority coupled with the fantasy of butch lesbians violently enforcing your elevated status for you. Nice. Very nice.

I know there are hateful people in all groups, but I doubt your friends would want to be associated with beating the snot out of TGs. Why don't you repost what you wrote above on your lesbian forum and see what sort of reaction it gets?

Let us get real. TO BE A LESBIAN YOU HAVE TO BE A REAL WOMAN. All the rest is metaphor or attempts at neologism.

Still, this has been a brilliant discussion.

Exactly! I'm speaking metaphorically. Obviously, I'm not claiming to be literally a lesbian, since I've already stated that I know I'm not really a woman.

But again, I don't care two flips about the term. What's bothering me are the tiresome word police treating it like the crime of the century.

Momarie

10-09-2011, 10:11 AM

We can invade that women's sanctuary....

Is that how it is for you?
No wonder some women would feel like it's an invasion. :doh:

Melody Moore

10-09-2011, 10:18 AM

Sophie, being accepted into a lesbian community is not easy and you think you can do it as a
crossdresser, then you go for it. I am not claiming an elevated status over you, it was granted
me and other trans-women I know because they believe we are a lot more genuine as women.
So don't blame me if they accept people like me and not you. This isn't a personal thing you know,
this is just how life really is in the lesbian community. So just deal with it.

DonniDarkness

10-09-2011, 10:52 AM

Why all the nasty comments and bickering back and forth with each other about "whos this" and "whos not that"........What the hell does it prove?

In the OP it states that this guy is a comedian, Comedians make jokes and thats exactly what this thread was about until it was derailed with holyier than thou attitudes. I have lesbian friends, the butch kind too and they dont really give a crap what you call yourself. And i have heard the "male lesbian" joke more than once at the bar with hanging out with friends.....you know what? they all laughed, including the lesbian couples that frequent our favorite watering hole. So that really makes this whole arguement subjective to your situation.

Funny is funny. Get over it ppl

-Donni-

Nigella

10-09-2011, 11:08 AM

OK folks, I can see the beginings of a flame war starting here, just a reminder, take any individual differences of opinion to PM or be prepared for moderating action being taken.

Nigella
Moderator

Wendae

10-09-2011, 11:31 AM

Right on Kitty! Describes me to a "T". I'm very oral with women.

ReineD

10-09-2011, 11:47 AM

A trans-woman yes, but a Male Crossdresser - no way! I would so dearly love for this guy to walk into one of our events claiming to be a "male lesbian", Meh thinks that the scene would get very ugly fast that there would be very little left of this person after making such an outlandish claim and statement.

The butch lesbians alone would eat him for breakfast only stopping
to spit out the bones of a fake imposing themselves on their girls:rofl:

I am not claiming an elevated status over you, it was granted me and other trans-women I know because they believe we are a lot more genuine as women.

Melody, I don't agree with your allegation that crossdressers are "fake". CDs express a genuine aspect of their psyches, even if it is not full time. There is a very real feeling of being feminine, and it shouldn't be laughed at. You're at one end of the gender binary so things may seem relatively clear for you internally, but there is a very real, and even more difficult gender space to navigate and this is dealing with a blended gender. The terms used to identify who a person is can certainly be debated, but I agree with Sophie, you are coming off as if you are superior right now even if it is not your intent.

Also, there are lesbians who feel that any birth male, even a post-op TS, is a fake woman. Some lesbian groups are quite militant about this. They are purists and they don't even recognize transmen as being male.

But again, I don't care two flips about the term. What's bothering me are the tiresome word police treating it like the crime of the century.

Words are important Sophie, especially in a forum like this one where there are so many different subsections of the community. I think it's important for people to agree on at least a few basic terms, if only to avoid battles like this in the future.

Why all the nasty comments and bickering back and forth with each other about "whos this" and "whos not that"........What the hell does it prove?

It proves there is a need to come up with universal language. It might be easier for one group of people to be blissfully unaware of other groups and use the language they want without considering how anyone else feels about it, but this type of attitude does nothing to help the community understand itself and grow as a whole.

Yes, the OP started this thread on a light note. But, he or she also asked how people feel about the term, and like it or not, a term such as 'male lesbian' defines not only sexual preference but also core gender identity and this is a deep and sensitive issue for many people here. You can't start a thread, ask people how they feel about core matters, and then expect the discussion to remain lighthearted.

To everyone, I agree with Nigella ... let's please continue the discussion but be sensitive enough to not be insulting to others, else this thread will be closed.

sara.s

10-09-2011, 12:09 PM

:brolleyes:Shouldn't we also stop using "gay woman" then?

Ellepet

10-09-2011, 12:13 PM

Words are important Sophie, especially in a forum like this one where there are so many different subsections of the community. I think it's important for people to agree on at least a few basic terms, if only to avoid battles like this in the future.

It proves there is a need to come up with universal language.

But, these aren't "words" that are being discussed. These are labels and that's a whole different thing. There is nothing universal about labels. Their entire reason for existence is to limit and define based on others views. There is nothing good that comes from them as shown here in this thread. There are people that are in the same "group" that don't see things the same at all because "groups" are made up of people. Unique and different despite similarities.

I shared my first experience was with a girl that was a lesbian. Many of her friends that were lesbians hated me because I was "bi". She loved me very much and we still keep in touch every once in a while, years later. Some of her friends were also very accepting and supportive of us as well. They didn't see me as anything but Elle.

How does defining clear up differences in perceptions that run very deep? How has establishing "rules" for who is included and who isn't ever worked out? Who is going to be the decider?

DonniDarkness

10-09-2011, 12:28 PM

Meh, i just think the term is kind of a oxymoron and should be taken as funny, much in the same way as "jumbo shrimp or little giant". Because the whole premise of the term lesbian describes a female individual (be that internally or as externally) and that counteracts the pre-fix of "male". Anytime i have heard the term outside of these forums it has always been in a lighthearted manner. Its meant to be taken as funny and maybe even an attempt by the macho guy crowd to use as a social bridge to find something in common with their lesbian friends.

-Donni-

JulieK1980

10-09-2011, 12:50 PM

Such seriousness for such a benign comment made by a comedian. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and as evidenced by many of us on here, so is gender. I fail to see how it could offend, and it makes me wonder if shrimp are as offended by being called "jumbo." It's a statement by a comedian made to be funny. Why is it funny? Because it's an oxymoron. Is it meant literal? Probably not, and I doubt it matters much either way.

SaraTV

10-09-2011, 02:12 PM

Wow! The simple turn of a phrase by a comedian seems to have put some folks on attack mode! Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of this on the forum lately. :sad:...

...Let's try to increase the peace a little bit. Nobody is on this forum to get kicked in the teeth!

Debby

Seriously!

Seems some people are turning to the Wikipedia page on Eddie instead of actually listening to his routine. He's actually very amusing.

I hate having to keep defining words for people. As Eddie says, 'most transvestites fancy girls', and he only mentions "male lesbian" as a metaphor - not as a definition.

ReineD

10-09-2011, 02:58 PM

Such seriousness for such a benign comment made by a comedian.

Jody, you know I respect you immensely, but :wall: :D

The OP asked how people feel about the term!

The term "male lesbian" is touted all over the forum, not just in this thread. Of course some people will have strong opinions about this especially since the term not only defines sexual preference, it defines core gender ID. Why shouldn't members give their opinions after having been asked to? :p

But, these aren't "words" that are being discussed. These are labels and that's a whole different thing. There is nothing universal about labels. Their entire reason for existence is to limit and define based on others views.

This is why it is important to have intelligent discussions about the words. I gave an example in another thread once, of a mother deciding that the term ADD (attention deficit disorder) doesn't exactly fit her child's personality, so she tells the teachers her child has DPI (dilligence paucity irregularity), and expects to avail her child of the school's resources for ADD.

Defining conditions is so important that the WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health) defines some important words in the Standards Of Care (SOC), that determines how best to help people with gender dysphoria and gender non-conformity. Establishing common language is crucial for people to define who they are, communicate it to others, and have it be understood. I agree there is no need to hurl insults, to laugh, or to consider one group as being superior to the other. But, to refuse to engage in a discussion about what things mean by saying they are all just labels I'm afraid is burying one's head in the sand.

Rianna Humble

10-09-2011, 03:33 PM

Meh, i just think the term is kind of a oxymoron and should be taken as funny,

Would you feel the same way if it had been used by someone attempting to discriminate against you? Neither did I.

sherib

10-09-2011, 04:14 PM

ReineD

10-09-2011, 04:42 PM

If I understand the conversation, when you are dressed as a women you would be interested in women, not mean. So you would be considered a Lesbian. I don't understand why you would put male in front of Lesbian if you want to be considered a female.

Well, if a guy who identifies as a male during times when he is not dressed and who uses his male body parts when he has sex with women, says he is a lesbian, then he is lying if the definition for lesbian is one woman who is attracted to the other. He is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a woman even if he likes to fantasize that he is when he is having sex. That said, if he and his partner like to role play in the bedroom and are both having fun with the fantasy they are lesbian, this is fine. It is more than fine, it is great! :) But to say that the fantasy is the reality is a completely different matter. And the CDs here who seriously identify as lesbian are confusing the two.

So ... since my idea of "dreemian" didn't take off (not surprising, lol), I'm proposing a different idea. The new way a CD who identifies as a woman when dressed and who enjoys sex with a GG can identify himself as ...

.
.
.
.
.
(drum roll)
.
.
.
.

MLJK (or) MLFTTB - (male-lesbian-just-kidding (or) male-lesbian-for-the-time-being). :D

Folks ... this is my attempt to lighten this thread up a little. :)

sherib

10-09-2011, 04:47 PM

So, if you have too be a real women to be called a Lesbian then it is a mute question. Right.

ReineD

10-09-2011, 05:08 PM

Jeez. I can't wait to start the French Toast ...

I resent and am deeply offended by that remark!!!!

My native language is French, and I am certainly not toast!

:D

Jessica Who

10-09-2011, 05:46 PM

I like that phrase and definitely consider myself one as I am always attracted to women even when I feel like a woman myself :)

Lorileah

10-09-2011, 06:01 PM

:brolleyes:Shouldn't we also stop using "gay woman" then?

no because the term "gay" is correct for both male and female. Such as gay woman and gay man.

Sophie86

10-09-2011, 06:04 PM

Sophie, being accepted into a lesbian community is not easy

Being accepted as a friend by individual lesbians is very easy. I've never had a problem with that.

I'm not interested in being accepted by a community--I like friends who are individuals--and I'm certainly not trying to be accepted by lesbians as a lesbian. If you're imagining me going into a lesbian bar and hitting on the girls there on the pretense that 'hey, I'm a lesbian too,' then you've let your imagination get the better of you. Nothing like that was ever suggested. I totally get that lesbians like women, and that a woman who would be attracted to a crossdresser would have to be either straight, bi, bi-curious, heteroflexible, or pansexual.

Words are important Sophie, especially in a forum like this one where there are so many different subsections of the community. I think it's important for people to agree on at least a few basic terms, if only to avoid battles like this in the future.

It wasn't being used as a term. It's just a humorous way of saying that we like to dress as girls, but we still fancy women. Period.

And no one has explained to me yet why they find the phrase personally offensive.

Duana

10-09-2011, 06:12 PM

Well said Reine, it is nice to see that someone gets it ;)

So if they agree with you, they get it? LOL

The bottom line is lesbians don't usually want anything to do with someone that has a penis
or is male even just for a smidgen of even the tiniest part of their lives. The minute a lesbian
sees the male side of a trans-woman it is all over.

Interesting remarks. What lesbian organization appointed you as their spokeswoman? My GG SO and I were chatting with a lesbian couple at a bar a few months ago. One of them remarked how lucky my GG was to have a feminine partner yet with a real penis. Her GF agreed strongly. Make of it what you will.

For me, this entire thread is a silly semantics argument. We all know a lesbian is female, hence the prefix "male". Who really cares? How does it affect your life if someone calls himself that? Are you afraid it will diminish the power of the word lesbian? Find a bigger hill to die on.

PS: I have a surprisingly large number of GG lesbians on my facebook page. Makes you go hmmm...

PPS: Speaking of FB pages, someone claiming to have been "accepted into the lesbian community" (I'd love to know that process) has marked their profile as being interested in men and women. I wonder if her "sisters" know she likes penis too.

Ellepet

10-09-2011, 06:16 PM

by ReineD But, to refuse to engage in a discussion about what things mean by saying they are all just labels I'm afraid is burying one's head in the sand. Since I posted four times on this thread I'm hardly refusing to engage in a discussion. :) I'm just offering my viewpoint and that is that there is such a disagreement on what the terms mean to begin with that how anyone would develop an accepted consensus is what I was asking and who is in charge of the defining? I've never said words are "just" labels. I think labels are hardly "just" anything and burying my head in the sand is rather offensive to me as if you read my posts I shared how much pain I've felt from being the target of "just labels". Hardly burying anything.

I responded initially as I love Eddie find his approach to things resonates so well with me. I think it's interesting that he is a member of a community yet others take exception to how he himself defines himself. Who has any say over that? Because he is a CD he doesn't represent the way others feel he should? I have only been on this site a week and have seen a wide range of feelings and experiences that are vastly different.

I have ADHD as well and don't fit the description that mother gave. Two of my little ones have it and are polar opposites in how they act :D. I'm part French as well but love French Toast ;). I very much enjoy discussions and have no desire to offend. Just sharing my view. I also feel comedy is much different than a serious term thrown at someone. I've been the victim of DV and volunteer. I take it very seriously yet have laughed at jokes about it. When you can laugh at something it removes it's power, at least to me. I do know everyone reacts differently.

kellycan27

10-09-2011, 06:37 PM

It wasn't being used as a term. It's just a humorous way of saying that we like to dress as girls, but we still fancy women. Period.

And no one has explained to me yet why they find the phrase personally offensive.

That's pretty much how I have taken the male lesbian thing to mean. Nothing deep, dark or imposing.

JulieK1980

10-09-2011, 07:23 PM

Jody, you know I respect you immensely, but :wall: :D

The OP asked how people feel about the term!

The term "male lesbian" is touted all over the forum, not just in this thread. Of course some people will have strong opinions about this especially since the term not only defines sexual preference, it defines core gender ID. Why shouldn't members give their opinions after having been asked to? :p

Haha! I understand the frustration and I'm not trying to discourage opinions. Anytime I see the term, I chuckle a little because it's so contradictory of itself. I see the term used often here, but to my recollection it's almost always used in a lighthearted way. I don't think anybody seriously believes they are a "male lesbian." I could be wrong of course, (it's just my take on it)

I guess I just don't really understand why it is seen as offensive.

sara.s

10-09-2011, 07:52 PM

no because the term "gay" is correct for both male and female. Such as gay woman and gay man.

haha.. I know.. i was just trying to divert the conversation again, but it seems to go on and on. Generally, we address all cd's as she, but here one of the TS, apart from addressing Sophie as "he", goes on to claim superiority over all other cd's and suggests butch girls will eat Sophie up. If one cannot argue on an issue without making personal attacks, then they should stop (or be stopped from) posting comments.

JustineFallow

10-09-2011, 08:15 PM

It wasn't being used as a term. It's just a humorous way of saying that we like to dress as girls, but we still fancy women. Period.

Haha! I understand the frustration and I'm not trying to discourage opinions. Anytime I see the term, I chuckle a little because it's so contradictory of itself. I see the term used often here, but to my recollection it's almost always used in a lighthearted way. I don't think anybody seriously believes they are a "male lesbian."

I second (third?) both of these statements. If the term under dispute has the Eddie Izzard seal of approval, it can't be all bad.

And for all its "contradictoriness", it really describes the way I see myself much better than most other terms out there (even though I like the sound of "dreemian"). And if its use disturbs some folks here or elsewhere, well, in the words of John Lennon (who would've been 71 today!), "you'll just have to carry on".

Aprilrain

10-09-2011, 09:46 PM

OMG people lighten up! who cares if some CDers want to call them selves male lesbians? the only people who will get it are other CDers so what difference does it make? jeesh!

docrobbysherry

10-09-2011, 10:05 PM

Look, u can ALL yourself whatever u like! Want to call yourself a white, black person? Or, a pregnant virgin? U CAN! I could care less! But, OTHERS may not understand!

If u want to use words that others will understand, try using the dictionary!

According to Webster:

Male- "Pertaining to the sex that begets young, as distinguished from female."

Lesbian- "Addicted the unnatural vice attributed to Sappho". Which means women who have sex with other women, I believe?

So, if u can yourself a "male lesbian", I'm assuming u mean:
"If I was born female, I'd be a lesbian". Or, "After I have SRS, I'll be a lesbian".

But, don't be surprised if ANYONE ELSE thinks your GAY if u say that! Cause that's what Webster thinks!

ReineD

10-09-2011, 10:14 PM

Since I posted four times on this thread I'm hardly refusing to engage in a discussion. :) I'm just offering my viewpoint and that is that there is such a disagreement on what the terms mean to begin with that how anyone would develop an accepted consensus is what I was asking and who is in charge of the defining? I've never said words are "just" labels.

I'm just so used to some members in this forum dismissing any dialogue about definitions by saying, "WHO CARES, THEY'RE JUST LABELS!!" and then they leave the thread, that I become weary when I see the word "label" being thrown around. I should have read your post more carefully and I'm sorry. :p

I very much enjoy discussions and have no desire to offend. Just sharing my view.

If I gave you the impression I was offended, again I'm sorry. I'm not and you're welcome to share your views. Welcome to the forum! :)

And no one has explained to me yet why they find the phrase personally offensive.

I see the term used often here, but to my recollection it's almost always used in a lighthearted way. I don't think anybody seriously believes they are a "male lesbian." I could be wrong of course, (it's just my take on it)

I guess I just don't really understand why it is seen as offensive.

If it's said in jest and no one takes it seriously, then it's OK. It is as someone mentioned earlier, an oxymoron. It's also OK if it is said by a CD to his GG partner and they both agree to have fun pretending they are lesbians in the bedroom. But if you comb the forum (or perhaps read as many posts as I do), you'll see there are quite a few CDs who say they are lesbian (if they are married, I wonder if their wives are aware of this), and there is no indication in their posts they are making a joke.

So ... either they are lost in a fantasy or they are mistaken as to what the word "lesbian" means.

I suppose if there were only CDs in the forum there would be no harm in having hetero CDs identify themselves as lesbian, but GGs read these threads as well (who might wonder if their husbands identify the same way and then wonder if their husbands identify as women and will eventually want to transition). TSs also read this forum and I dare say they take the matter more seriously since they do need to move mountains (compared to the average CD) in order to be accepted in our society as the women they feel they are internally. They feel they've earned the right to say they are lesbian after having transitioned, and honestly I can't say that I blame them. So, to have a male who enjoys using his penis say the same thing kinda negates what they went through, if you can try to understand this.

In terms of what is offensive, I'm not a lesbian but if I were I think I might be offended if a man with a penis were to classify himself the same as me. Just guessing about this, but it does make sense. As a woman I know I do get offended by some parodies of women in the gay community, and a man calling himself a lesbian isn't all that far removed from the same sentiment. Or someone who calls himself a chick with a dick, or a *******. I don't know why I find it offensive, I just do.

That said, personally I understand why a CD might like to think of himself as a male lesbian but it is important to note this is a fantasy and not the reality. And at the same time, I am aware of some people who find it offensive. So it is always a good idea in any diverse community, to be aware that when something is offensive to certain members of the community, then to just stop doing it. This is being sensitive to others.

Here's an analogy: when my kids were little, one of the hardest lessons to teach them was to believe their brothers when they said, "Stop". "Stop tickling me, stop teasing me, stop saying that", etc. The one who tickles and teases is having a good time and sees no harm done, and it is difficult to come to understand and respect when the other has had his fill. It takes an effort, maturity, and self-responsibility to get out of one's own head space and become sensitive to another's.

Another analogy: there was a time when words like coon, nigger, etc were used without any white person thinking they were offensive. Until the other side spoke up. And then there was awareness and the words fell out of favor. In the beginning I suppose the whites who used those words felt the blacks were over-reacting. It took a lot for them to be able to see the other person's point of view.

JulieK1980

10-09-2011, 10:38 PM

Reine, You know I respect your opinions, and your posts but, :hd: :D

I do understand what you are saying, but on the other hand, as someone that sees themselves as female on the inside, I'm almost offended by the assumption that an appendage defines gender. I don't truly believe it to be just the appendage so to speak, that defines our gender. I suppose in the confines of crossdressing and the use of "male lesbian" by those that define themselves as men, can be seen as offensive. However, on a site such as this, you have to wonder how many of those that reference this term seriously, are actually correct.

So my question is, would you question this assumption to someone that identifies as trans? Or someone in transition? After all, many of us that are actually transexual, defined ourselves as crossdressers before we realized we were actually a tad more. (I know this is sort of a loaded question) but its meant to be reflective, not confrontational. :)

ReineD

10-09-2011, 10:53 PM

as someone that sees themselves as female on the inside, I'm almost offended by the assumption that an appendage defines gender. I don't truly believe it to be just the appendage so to speak, that defines our gender.

So my question is, would you question this assumption to someone that identifies as trans? Or someone in transition? After all, many of us that are actually transexual, defined ourselves as crossdressers before we realized we were actually a tad more.

I'm not speaking here of TSs who are in the process of transition. I'm speaking of the MtF CD fantasy of being a "Lezzie". A purely sexual fantasy of being a female that is combined with a sexual attraction to females. The CD I am referring to has no intention to switch genders. He likes being a guy. But he really gets off on being a girl with another girl. This does not a lesbian make. :p

Melody Moore

10-09-2011, 11:40 PM

Look, I am intersex for a start and for many years I told all my female partners I felt like a lesbian trapped in a male body,
they never once took me seriously, but in my case which is very rare this is exactly how I truly felt and it was true. But still
I couldn't get upset with my partners because they never took me seriously, this was just the reality of how things were.

Yes it hurt me to know they never took me seriously about this, but I also know it was often a comeback line when a guy
asks a woman to have sex and if she declines saying that she is a lesbian, then they usually come back and claim they are
a "Male Lesbian" or a "Lesbian Trapped in a Male Body" for some people it is just a joke, for others it is a fantasy but for me
it was just another fact of life I had to try and deal with. I see difference in how this oxymoron is used and appreciate it
from all perspectives, especially not as just another transvestic sexual fantasy or some stupid comeback line or joke.

girlygirly

10-10-2011, 03:51 AM

The only times I've ever used the term "male lesbian" as a comeback line was when responding gay men who were asking for sex. I deliver it as a polite explanation.

It also works as an explanation for any ladies who might question my being dressed from head to toe in girls clothing, but still being a hetero male. I say it with a smile, and don't intend it as some serious declaration about my sexuality. It seems to help me avoid lengthy conversations about crossdressing when I don't feel like going there.

I'm not one for talking a lady into sex unless I already know her well enough to know she needs a little polite coercion, and enjoys it, as well as the sex. There are billions of women in the world, it's easiest to just find one who is more willing.

ZosKiaCultusC7

10-10-2011, 04:15 AM

Doesn't really mean anything special to me, to be honest. I am familiar with Eddie Izzard and I applaud his courage. A "male lesbian" defines myself and many others: transgendered individuals who are sexually attracted to women.

We may be transgendered but it doesn't necessarily mean that we are not attracted to the gender we relate the most to. In other words, Eddie is trying to point out that not all transgendered males are homosexual.

Sophie86

10-10-2011, 07:18 AM

If it's said in jest and no one takes it seriously, then it's OK.

Thank you. Now all we have to do is get these other folks to stop taking it seriously.

It is as someone mentioned earlier, an oxymoron.

I'm a guy in a dress. I'm okay with things that seem contradictory on the surface.

But if you comb the forum (or perhaps read as many posts as I do), you'll see there are quite a few CDs who say they are lesbian (if they are married, I wonder if their wives are aware of this), and there is no indication in their posts they are making a joke.

You should take that up with them on a case by case basis.

So ... either they are lost in a fantasy or they are mistaken as to what the word "lesbian" means.

Or they are just really confused about their gender. I know... that's a bit out there, but it's possible.

I suppose if there were only CDs in the forum

Do we have a forum like that?

but GGs read these threads as well (who might wonder if their husbands identify the same way and then wonder if their husbands identify as women and will eventually want to transition).

They should take that up with their husbands. I'm sure seeing all these femme pronouns must raise the same question. (Not to mention wearing panties, and bras, and dresses, and high heels...)

TSs also read this forum and I dare say they take the matter more seriously since they do need to move mountains (compared to the average CD) in order to be accepted in our society as the women they feel they are internally. They feel they've earned the right to say they are lesbian after having transitioned, and honestly I can't say that I blame them. So, to have a male who enjoys using his penis say the same thing kinda negates what they went through, if you can try to understand this.

But we didn't say the same thing. The phrase under discussion is "male lesbian." Those TSs could also say that they have earned the right to the femme pronouns, and they have earned the right to be called girl, and they could demand that we stop using those also. Frankly, I don't care what they think they've earned the right to, I'm not going to let them dictate what words I'm allowed to use.

In terms of what is offensive, I'm not a lesbian but if I were I think I might be offended if a man with a penis were to classify himself the same as me.

As I said above, if I were in a bar trying to pick up lesbian women by arguing that I'm a lesbian too, that would be offensive. Calling myself a 'male lesbian' as a humorous way of explaining my orientation is not.

So it is always a good idea in any diverse community, to be aware that when something is offensive to certain members of the community, then to just stop doing it. This is being sensitive to others.

Which is why I keep asking people here to explain why they personally find the word offensive. So far, no one has taken me up on that.

Another analogy: there was a time when words like coon, nigger, etc were used without any white person thinking they were offensive.

I think you probably just triggered some corollary of Godwin's Law with that one. :)

Those words are offensive in themselves because of a long history of offensive usage. 'Lesbian' is not an offensive word. What you are objecting to is how it's being used in this context, and there is no consensus on whether that usage is offensive. I've not read of any public outcry over Eddie Izzard making that joke, and other people have offered examples of lesbians reacting with humor to its use. Also, there's a limit to the ability to make unilateral declarations of offensive speech by overly-sensitive subsets of a community. At some point it just becomes ludicrous (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-JIjEsLkDA). :)

A better analogy would be if some pasty-white politician (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton#Public_image) tried to call himself "the first black president." Oh wait, that title was bestowed on him by a black woman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toni_Morrison#Politics), so I guess it's okay.

And since my 'lesbian' title was bestowed on me, humorously, by a woman who is active in the lesbian community, I'm going to wear it with pride. And humor.

DonniDarkness

10-10-2011, 09:33 AM

Are all your friends this serious in life?

Humor is funny. and not always politically correct. We have spent alot of time and effort debating a term that isnt even seriously used as a definitive label. All this worry over what someone else says or thinks about a phrase that has no real validity, seems like a total waste of effort.

Words are only offensive if you let them be. It is your mindset about what someone else says that makes it offensive to you personally, the best place to make that change is your own self. Dont let things bother you and they wont be an issue for anyone.

-Donni-

Lorileah

10-10-2011, 10:03 AM

Those words are offensive in themselves because of a long history of offensive usage. 'Lesbian' is not an offensive word.

My guess is you missed the last 100 years or more? Especially the last decade or so where epithets that disparage homosexuals are bandied about among certain peer groups. The saying "that is so gay" isn't a compliment. It is a put down. How do you feel about other groups and what they have been called in the past? It doesn't bother you as much because you are in a group that is "entitled". You don't have to worry about that label when you go for a job. You don't have to worry about that label when you leave a bar. Ha Ha Funny!

Before you start on the "I am a TG and part of a minority" part, you can hide that part and you do. Try being a TG 24/7 even if you are not transitioning. Yes, my ox is gored by all this because I look at what may hurt someone.

Sophie86

10-10-2011, 10:39 AM

My guess is you missed the last 100 years or more? Especially the last decade or so where epithets that disparage homosexuals are bandied about among certain peer groups. The saying "that is so gay" isn't a compliment. It is a put down. How do you feel about other groups and what they have been called in the past? It doesn't bother you as much because you are in a group that is "entitled". You don't have to worry about that label when you go for a job. You don't have to worry about that label when you leave a bar. Ha Ha Funny!

Before you start on the "I am a TG and part of a minority" part, you can hide that part and you do. Try being a TG 24/7 even if you are not transitioning. Yes, my ox is gored by all this because I look at what may hurt someone.

The above has as much relation to what we're talking about as if the phrase under question were "frying pan."

And to this specifically....

The saying "that is so gay" isn't a compliment. It is a put down.

Duh.

Yet, that has nothing to do with me saying in a humorous vein that as a CD I'm a male lesbian.

Miss Maxine

10-10-2011, 10:57 AM

You can call me anything you want! Even a dreemian! All I know is that I love the same things that lesbians love!:D:hugs:

I like this. People seems to get so caught up on finding that one words that defines what they are. I just recently succumed to the temptations of the Sims. I'd avoided it, for years. Listening to fake digital people speak in a fake, nonsensical language, can be quite refreshing. You have to listen to the way they say things and the gestures they make, in order to capture their meaning (the thought bubbles help, too, of course). The words are the least important element in Sims communication. This goes to show that words are only as meaningful as we want them to be. With that in mind, I've decided on the one word that defines me: Surgloofy.

ReineD

10-10-2011, 12:00 PM

Yet, that has nothing to do with me saying in a humorous vein that as a CD I'm a male lesbian.

You are tenacious, and you blithely insist on not considering the points of view of people who do feel the term is inappropriate, as if their opinions don't matter? You continue to blindly insist that the hundreds of posts in this forum (which is what this discussion is really about) where CDs have said they are lesbian, is a joke? :wall:

This is, of course, entirely your prerogative. But I feel as if I've wasted my breath.

To everyone in this thread who attempted to explain, I suggest just dropping it, since it's obviously not going anywhere. Let Sophie have the last word. :p

DonniDarkness

10-10-2011, 02:20 PM

Ok so we have concluded that there is a mixed consensus of views...

Some do find the term offensive

Some do not

What now?

We could just agree to disagree....but that would bring us full circle to the theory behind the argument and become an oxymoron of an oxymoron.....

Many words i have found offensive throughout life, as have we all. When you let someone get the best of you using words, you enable them with power over you. If you dont let it bother you then you have given them no power at all.

Many words can be found offensive only by their use in context and delivery. Its how a person says it that counts, not exactly what they say.

The whole topic is kind of ridiculous.... Something that a comedian said to help describe himself to people who are not educated about transgender people...... in a way they would understand and also laugh about. I say kudos for making a social bridge to those who dont understand what we go through as the T in LGBT.

-Donni-

ReineD

10-10-2011, 02:38 PM

Ok so we have concluded that there is a mixed consensus of views...

Some do find the term offensive

Some do not

What now?

Nothing. I think we should just move on and let things simmer for awhile. :)

Rianna Humble

10-10-2011, 03:03 PM

Ok so we have concluded that there is a mixed consensus of views...
...
The whole topic is kind of ridiculous....

Perhaps you should consider doing what I do. When I find the topic of a particular thread to be uninteresting or even mildly ridiculous from my point of view, I move on to the next thread.

Whilst you may find the original poster's question about what we think of the term "male lesbian" ridiculous, I doubt that she does.

Elle1946

10-10-2011, 03:22 PM

To me it means that if I were a female I would be a Lesbian.

ReineD

10-10-2011, 03:29 PM

To me it means that if I were a female I would be a Lesbian.

Ahhh! My faith in the CDing community is restored! :)

Elle, I think this is the smartest thing anyone has said in this tread, and I thank you for it! :D :hugs:

kendra_gurl

10-10-2011, 03:35 PM

Marie-Elise

10-10-2011, 03:45 PM

There is and always will be differences between just Crossdressers and those who are transgendered. Now throw GG's and Lesbians into the mix and there is no way for everyone to ever get on the same page with an issue like this.

Reine used the analogy earlier of the term N..word. That is classic of how some people can use it while others cannot. Even Barbara Walters got critizied for even trying to discuss that word with her fellow View cast.

Its time this one rest in peace

Just to put in my two cents: I think the N word in use by African Americans is a case of the appropriation of that which is meant to offend by those who against whom the offense is meant. For example, the gay community appropriating the word "queer" or "fag". It takes away the word's effectiveness by those outside the community and renders it socially unacceptable by the larger society.

An interesting case is something I read about a black musician in one of the Carolinas. For whatever reason, one night while on stage, he started singing the song "Dixie". From then on, he made it a regular piece in his set. I don't remember reading that he experienced anything adverse about it...and he was playing for mostly white audiences in the South.

sherib

10-11-2011, 06:19 AM

Wow, everybody has their own opiniun. I think we should leave it that way.

jillleanne

10-13-2011, 08:30 AM

Ah, lest we forget he is a comedian? Could it be I am a part-time female lesbian? Do I have friends that are female gays? What makes Teflon stick? Who know?

darci.c

12-17-2011, 03:11 AM

Hope I'm not violating etiquette resurrecting a thread already 2 months old, but I felt the urge to chime in.

What does it mean if it turns you on more to go down on a woman than the reverse,
If you prefer sex being executed very lovingly with caressing and kissing
You're not primarily fixated on "getting off"
You think of the sex act as easily a 2-hour affair, with no clear beginning or end, and lots of stops and starts
You simply must know the person and connect on a vibrational / intellectual level before you could have sex with them
You never cared for american sports, AT ALL
Male friends are of very little interest to you, but hanging out with the girls feels perfect
A car (not a truck) was a natural choice for you
You have an impeccable sense of fashion, even when choosing male clothing
The cleanliness of your feet (and every other part of your body, for that matter) was always a natural consideration
You feel wearing women's clothes is the most natural thing in the world
But prefer intimacy with women
And you have a penis?

The phrase "male lesbian" kinda seems to fit how I see myself, even though it's a silly phrase and somewhat self-contradictory.

jillleanne

12-17-2011, 08:06 AM

I walked into a bar one time, sat down next to a beautiful woman and ordered a drink for myself and asked if she would like a drink. She said she would but ," You won't get nothing from me tonight. I'm a lesbian." I pulls back and says," Oh yeah? How's things in Beirut?" The woman says, " You don't know what a lesbian is do you? See that gorgeous lady sitting at the other end of the bar? Well I'd like to take her home with me tonight and tear off her clothes and make love to her all night long!!" So I replied, " Holy Geeeeeezz, I think I'm a lesbian too!!!!"
I guess that makes me a lesbian.

Rianna Humble

12-17-2011, 10:44 AM

Whilst I admire the witty riposte from JilleAnne, it pains me to see the same fallacies being dredged up again. There is no such thing as a male lesbian. The term lesbian refers to a homosexual woman. You cannot be a male woman.

Missy

12-17-2011, 01:15 PM

If you in your mind look and feel that you are a female and you are attracted to other females then you are so close to being a male liz. your wife or so being a female GG may not have to be a lez. she was and is attracted to a man even if the man wears female clothing just something to think about

LilSissyStevie

12-17-2011, 01:46 PM

MissMarcie

12-17-2011, 01:47 PM

To be a lesbian you MUST be a female so it is stupid to
have such a notion you are a lesbian male in your head.
Agree 100% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jenniferathome

12-17-2011, 01:47 PM

It's simply a way for some cross dressers to say they are straight. No matter the outfit.

Kristy_K

12-17-2011, 02:33 PM

This has been a very interesting debate over labels of people. Even some therapist can't agree on this either.
I guess I used to be CD until I transition. Now I guess I am a TS who doesn't like guys.

I myself like to called a female because I don't want people to think I am a guy trying to be woman but a woman in a guys body. A birth defect thing.

Bottom line is that I have never had someone ask me what my label was. They either like me or dislike me. I just enjoy being myself.

girlygirly

12-17-2011, 02:56 PM

There is no such thing as a male lesbian. The term lesbian refers to a homosexual woman. You cannot be a male woman.
This flies in the face of everything I have learned about transgenderism.

To me it means that if I were a female I would be a Lesbian.

But I sorta like being a guy, and it would be silly to get rid of a perfectly good penis so I could wear a something else. Why can't I just continue wearing female clothes and having sex with females?

If you in your mind look and feel that you are a female and you are attracted to other females then you are so close to being a male lez. your wife or so being a female GG may not have to be a lez. she was and is attracted to a man even if the man wears female clothing just something to think about

I have thought about it. There is a much wider pool of ladies for me to hook up with as a woman trapped in a male body, and I don't have to tell anyone about it unless I want to. And you never know, I might even find a female lesbian someday who appreciates having a girlfriend with a little extra

Rianna Humble

12-17-2011, 06:12 PM

This flies in the face of everything I have learned about transgenderism.

If you think being transgender is about being a male woman or a female man then you have certainly not been learning from anything I would recognise.
I am not a male woman. I am a woman.

I sorta like being a guy, and it would be silly to get rid of a perfectly good penis so I could wear a something else. Why can't I just continue wearing female clothes and having sex with females?

No-one said you can't express your fetish, but please don't confuse your male heterosexual desires with a woman's homosexual desires. You are a man and you like women, that does not make you any form of a lesbian.

I have thought about it. There is a much wider pool of ladies for me to hook up with as a woman trapped in a male body, and I don't have to tell anyone about it unless I want to. And you never know, I might even find a female lesbian someday who appreciates having a girlfriend with a little extra

So you might be TG though probably not TS, but that still leaves you as a man who wants to preserve his maleness and have relations with women. That does not make you a male woman, neither does it make you a homosexual woman. To use your own words, you are a guy and you like being a guy that does not gel with the claim to be a woman trapped in a male body - which is starting to sound more and more like a cheesy chat-up line.

Julia_in_Pa

12-17-2011, 06:17 PM

Rianna,

I fully agree with you. The whole idea is absurd.

Julia

girlygirly

12-17-2011, 07:44 PM

If you think being transgender is about being a male woman or a female man then you have certainly not been learning from anything I would recognise.
I am not a male woman. I am a woman.

No-one said you can't express your fetish, but please don't confuse your male heterosexual desires with a woman's homosexual desires. You are a man and you like women, that does not make you any form of a lesbian.

So you might be TG though probably not TS, but that still leaves you as a man who wants to preserve his maleness and have relations with women. That does not make you a male woman, neither does it make you a homosexual woman. To use your own words, you are a guy and you like being a guy that does not gel with the claim to be a woman trapped in a male body - which is starting to sound more and more like a cheesy chat-up line.
Why doesn't it gel with a claim to be a woman trapped in a male? Just because I don't try to pass myself off as a lady, that doesn't mean I wouldn't change if I could have done it from birth. I've just learned to live with and enjoy what I have, while stretching the boundaries as much as I feel I can, and waxing whimsically about what I'll never truly be. I'm not willing to risk alienating my family or friends by trying to tell them I was actually born a girl, so I live my life within it's boundaries. At the same time, my life as a male has left me jaded towards men in general. Even if i were sexually attracted, I don't think I could put up with a great deal of male behavior. If I were reborn a lady, having experienced my life so far, I would either be looking for a somewhat dominant, yet pretty girl, or be looking for a guy who wanted express his more feminine mannerisms and mindset.

I think most would agree that the as yet not fully explained and sometimes unscientific nature of what is known about gender assignment still has some uncharted territory to explore. It certainly isn't worth a prolonged argument, and I'm not going to say I'm an expert. As for any of my own gender confusion, I realize I was born a man, and long ago I decided I can live with that. I certainly wouldn't want to remove anything so I could officially proclaim myself a lesbian.

JulieK1980

12-17-2011, 07:47 PM

I find this particular thread to be fascinating to me. Our society is so purely entrenched in the concept of a two gendered world, that even a group of people that blur those lines, (and a few that are actually physiologically two genders) can't wrap our minds around the concept that more than two genders can exist. The concept of a "male lesbian" is of course a silly term that was meant to be comical (clearly the attempt at humor is lost here) but nonetheless, we see evidence of people that are between genders all the time. Whether they be inter-sexed and carry the physical traits of both genders, or they are ts and carry the mental capacity of a female and the physiological aspects of a male. So, by the reality of this, and I'm not talking about this nonsensical I'm a ts and thus I'm a woman not a man. (NO! You still have a Y chromosome, and thus will always on a cellular level be physiologically a male, no matter how many surgeries or hormones you take.) Medical science isn't nearly advanced enough to make someone wholly one gender or the other. So in a very real sense this absurd title of "male lesbian" will in a way, fit. Nobody will like that, but that's what the reality is. The rest of the debate here is based purely on emotional feelings, and not scientific fact. I personally recommend writing it off as poor humor and don't think too hard about it, because when you look at it objectively you may get answers to things that make you feel uncomfortable, such as your actual gender(s).

ReineD

12-18-2011, 03:11 AM

Hope I'm not violating etiquette resurrecting a thread already 2 months old, but I felt the urge to chime in.

What does it mean if it ... [and all the rest]

The phrase "male lesbian" kinda seems to fit how I see myself, even though it's a silly phrase and somewhat self-contradictory.

It means you are a very sensitive male lover, hence not a lesbian.

And you never know, I might even find a female lesbian someday who appreciates having a girlfriend with a little extra

Then she wouldn't be a lesbian.

I find this particular thread to be fascinating to me. Our society is so purely entrenched in the concept of a two gendered world, that even a group of people that blur those lines, (and a few that are actually physiologically two genders) can't wrap our minds around the concept that more than two genders can exist.

I agree. Our concept of gender and sexual variance has widened since the old days when there were just hetero, gay, or lesbian people. We do need more terms to account for M2F CDs or TSs attracted to women. Perhaps transbian (a word I've seen here and there) would be more accurate.

Or maybe we could dispense with those labels altogether, and simply all say we are either male-attracted (androphile), or female-attracted (gynephile), or trans attracted (transophile?).

But, the definition of "lesbian" is "a female who is same-sex attracted". This just doesn't describe a male who either fully or partially identifies as a woman, who is attracted to women.

However, there are CDs who like to fantasize they are lesbians, and since none of us can agree or disagree with someone else's fantasy, no one can object to a CD saying, "I like to fantasize that I am a lesbian (although I know that I am not)".

On that note, I'm closing this thread. No one wants to read through 6 pages again. We were a bit behind with closing the older threads, else it would not have been revived. If anyone wants to start up the discussion again, please start a new thread.