Why do we get hell for dressing up and gg"s don"t

[fungril]

GG:s dress in mans clothing all the time and know one say a thing.We dress in woman clothing and we get hell and are call all kind of names . WHY

SALLY:2c:

[AllieSF]

Hmmmm, I go out dressed all the time and never get hell. I talk with complete strangers and have wonderful conversations, I have had only one catcall, mild too, in over 4 years of going out wherever I want. It is not just because I live in a tolerant area. Read some of the posts here and us "girls" go out all across the US and UK with minimal or no problems. The women can do it and men cannot argument is a very old one here. Why complain about others? Just live your life as best you can and enjoy it. Men have issues because we are not out on the public enough to help others get used to a man in femme clothing. When that happens a lot more, people will be more tolerant.

[Audreyanne]

I can remember when comedians used to make jokes about women wearing pants. It was not commonly done in those days. If you go further back to the 19th century when George Sand used to appear in male garb it was thought shocking. Over time, women in men's clothing has become accepted. Perhaps someday men in women's clothing will be more accepted by the general public.

[Tasha McIntyre]

Hi Fungril, I dress and go out quite regularly and have never had a bad experience....BUT, I am presenting en femme with hair and make up etc (not passable in our speak, but I do OK).

GG's dont generally dress in mens clothing, they wear pants that are designed for them......and whether we like it or not, the general population are perfectly comfortable with seeing GG's in jeans, or a pant suit. That same general public, although aware or our existance are generally not used to seeing males in skirts. We are considered crossdressers, GG's in pants are not. Just my :2c:

[bridget thronton]

I am surprised at how few people notice or react how I dress. I am always respectful of others and think I am treated the same way.

[VioletJourney]

Because those women aren't trying to present as men. A user on another forum I frequent got caught dressing up as a man and actually did get shit from her/his family.

[ArleneRaquel]

Sally, maybe because presenting as a woman is heaven.

[Stephenie S]

GG:s dress in mans clothing all the time and know one say a thing.We dress in woman clothing and we get hell and are call all kind of names . WHY

SALLY:2c:

Dear fun,

This question is so old it has cobwebs on it.

The answer is:

Women don't try to look like men when they wear pants. They are just women in pants.

Crossdressing men USUALLY try to look like women when they wear women's cothes. THAT'S why society gives them grief.

But really, dear, VERY few people give much of a rat's behind WHAT you wear. Dress nice (not ****ty), be polite, SMILE, and few others will care.

S

[Karren H]

Next time you see a woman doing that... Call her a pervert!! And chase her down the street..

Even if they were..... which they aren't... Two wrongs don't make a right! Didn't you mom tell you that? If your like me you were not paying attention... Too busy going through her lingerie drawers! Lol.

[Aprilrain]

Is this question conjecture or peronal experience? I will hazard a guess, conjecture!
start going out dressed and THEN come back and ask the question if it is true for you, I doubt it will be unless you live somewhere REAL backwoods then we may never hear from you again : P

[Kaz]

Women have spent decades winning the right to wear trousers as they think they are comfortable and practical... and women's trousers and jeans probably are...

For many things I do in life trousers/jeans work best... but skirts are so much more comfortable.

As to public opinion... we haven't won that right yet... and I doubt we will. My wife loves skirts in the summer, but wears jeans/trouser mostly year round... she doesn't see any gender issues in what she wears... but if I wear a skirt... different story!

[Kate Simmons]

Best not to go "there" my friend. In any case anyone who calls me a name will obviously get a fat lip.:)

[sometimes_miss]

GG:s dress in mans clothing all the time and know one say a thing.We dress in woman clothing and we get hell and are call all kind of names . WHY

SALLY:2c:

Simple. Because they aren't trying to appear masculine or emulate a male; when women dress in male clothing, it's most often to do some kind of work, not for appearances sake. We, on the other hand, usually go out of our way to appear feminine as possible when we dress up. You'll note that women who wear men's clothing still wear female underwear. We go to great lengths to wear female underwear as well as jewelry, make up, and do our hair like a girl as well.

[skirtsuit]

What if there was no difference and men felt comfortable in dresses and heels and hose just as women with pants?

It would take all the fun out it, IMHO. Where would the thrills be then? There would be no point to CDing any more. As a fetish/hobbyist fairweather CD, I'd hate for all the fun to be drained out by some unisex clothing future....

Best,
SS

Second thought - Try this thought experiement - Bring a brightly colored flower print fabric to a mens suit maker and get a nicely fitted suit made. In which mode will you get more wierd looks, in guy mode in your new suit or en femme in a nice tasteful sheath or skirt suit made from the same fabric?

[Engendered]

Women don't try to look like men when they wear pants. They are just women in pants.

Crossdressing men USUALLY try to look like women when they wear women's cothes. THAT'S why society gives them grief.


I agree with everything except for the last part. If crossdressing men didn't try to look like women, and just wore women's clothes, they'd likely get just as much, or even more grief than they do going the whole hog. I've never had any comments from anyone when out fully girled up, but I can almost guarantee you if I just went out in guy mode wearing a skirt, I'd get all sorts of stares and comments. Hell, I get comments when in full guy mode if I wear something slightly out of the norm. Maybe I just live in an area where people are more likely to comment. Btw, I'm mostly talking about guys aged 14-20 here when I talk about the people who comment.

Anyway, that's almost irrelevant to the topic. Guys will be able to wear girls clothes in a similar fashion to girls wearing guys ones, when enough guys start doing it in numbers so as to make it mainstream and normal. I can't see it happening though, because we'd need the help of non-crossdressing men, as we simply don't have the numbers. If it became a normal thing, it might be harder for us to actually crossdress in future. I sometimes think that we MtF, have it a lot better then FtM, because we have such a wide range of female-only items to choose from.

Dear me, I babbled on a bit. :)
Edit: and skirtsuit already said what I said at the end. D'oh. Mental note: read every reply.

[Alberta_Pat]

Come now. Skirts and dresses are the "domain" or "Women". Dress slacks and skinny jeans are items that they have chosen to take into that domain.

For those who are old enough, the sight of a woman in a mans dress shirt (and 'nothing else') was considered erotic. Never has a man in a 'woman's attire' been presented as erotic.

So, getting back to male clothing on females, it was a sexual "revolution" that brought it about.

As I grew up, we were bussed to school. The girls were permitted to wear jeans to and from school, but were required to change into a skirt or dress once there. This was a safety precaution in the winter in the event that the bus "broke down" on the rural roads. This was in the days before phones were portable in any way. If it didn't have a cord, it wouldn't work.

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

Because women (GG) have anti discrimination laws and we (CD/TV/TG/TS/MtF/FtM) don't...... yet.

[Eryn]

I'm fairly new to going out dressed but I haven't had an experience that could be described as "catching Hell." I've experienced a few teen giggles but I don't really know if they were because they thought I was male or because I was 6'2" tall.

[bredalee25]

This question might be old and have cobwebs on it BUT!!!! It still angers me. I'd like to just wear my female clothes outside the house and not present myself as being female. For me it is truely the clothes that I love not being female or presting myself as female. Unfortunatly in order for me to go out dressed I must present myself as being female in order to avoid any fallout.

So thinking with that in mind GG's do get away with wearing clothes marketed for men in public without any flack. If I was to put a top and leggings on and run to the mini mart you can bet i'd get all kinds of flack. The many names i'd be called are countless and very hurtful.

Just to add my wife shops in the mens section for her clothes according to her the mens section has a better selection. I disagree with her and tell her that the womens section is the better selection BTW she knows I dress and fully supports me I dress at home all the time.

[Ellyn]

Many GG's are not wearing women's clothes that are "styled like men's clothes". I see numerous GG's shopping in the men's section, both in regular clothing stores and in the SallyAnn. And they are not buying for someone else, otherwise they would not be trying the clothes on. Also, many obviously are wearing men's clothes while shopping.

[LilSissyStevie]

Wow! I'm surprized this thread has lasted this long. Well, if you have to know, there are two "gendered" styles of clothing. Female and unisex. Women can wear both styles without raising an eyebrow but men can only wear the unisex style or they are "crossdressers." That's just the way it is.

[Aprilrain]

So thinking with that in mind GG's do get away with wearing clothes marketed for men in public without any flack. If I was to put a top and leggings on and run to the mini mart you can bet i'd get all kinds of flack. The many names i'd be called are countless and very hurtful.

VERY RARLY do I see woman wearing "clothes marketed for men"! when are you guys going to wake up and realize the days of woman wearing skirts and dresses exclusively are LONG GONE. Woman wear pants marketed to woman they are cut to a woman's figure the zipper is shorter and usually the pockets are useless.

until you go out and TRY wearing your femme clothing in public then you have no reason to whine! there is a member here who says he goes out in skirts and dresses all the time without makeup or wig or any attempt to pass as a woman without problems!

[Leslie Langford]

Yes, it's an age-old question, but then again, who ever said that life was fair? On the other hand, we get to pee standing up, are not afflicted with periods, don't get cellulite or bunions, and are still often paid better for equivalent work. It all works out in the long run...;)

But more to the point, whatever advantages women appear to have - no one ever handed those out to them on a silver platter; they had to fight tooth and nail for every advancement. Whether it was the right to vote, not be considered their husband's property, getting equal pay for equal work, or yes - even the "right" to wear pants and other typical male attire - they had to convince a predominantly male establishment that they should be entitled to these things as well. Of course, the pendulum now has swung in the direction of women asking for even more as their confidence and sense of entitlement starts to go beyond mere equality, and it's now the men who are playing "catch up".

So here's the deal - rather that whine about the unfairness of it all, we need to take a page from the women's' playbook and do exactly what they have done to assert our "right" to wear women's clothing or masculinized (read:unisex) versions of the same thing without guilt or shame.

When I go out as "Leslie", I make a point of dressing better and more put together than 90% of the GG's that I run into in the malls, on the streets, and in the restaurants etc. Do I get read? - sure I do, from time to time. But I also like to think that I am read less as simply a "man in a dress" and more as a "Wow! Is that really a man in a dress? He looks great and has an amazing fashion sense. I wish I had legs like that, or could walk in heels as well as he does! I clearly need to step up my game..." That's empowerment, and that's acceptance, and it's a mindset that women have had for some time now, but we were always too privileged or too spoiled in our "man's world" to ever notice that.

But when it comes to wearing women's clothing, the shoe (or rather, the pump :heehee:) is on the other foot, and we need to grow a pair and assert ourselves just as women have had to do in the past to to get their due.

So suck it up, ladies, "own" your crossdressing, and resolve to never again allow anyone to try to embarrass you or guilt you out for simply expressing this important part of yourselves - just as the guy (or gal) with the multiple tattoos or piercings does, and who also doesn't give a rat's @ss what others may think of their particular fashion statement.

[Leslie Langford]

What if there was no difference and men felt comfortable in dresses and heels and hose just as women with pants?

It would take all the fun out it, IMHO. Where would the thrills be then? There would be no point to CDing any more. As a fetish/hobbyist fairweather CD, I'd hate for all the fun to be drained out by some unisex clothing future....

Best,
SS

Second thought - Try this thought experiement - Bring a brightly colored flower print fabric to a mens suit maker and get a nicely fitted suit made. In which mode will you get more wierd looks, in guy mode in your new suit or en femme in a nice tasteful sheath or skirt suit made from the same fabric?

Good points, skirtsuit, but clearly you've never heard of iconic NHL hockey sports commentator Don Cherry ;) :

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0805/don.cherry.fashion.statements/content.5.html

Wearing these outlandish sports jackets has become his "schtick" over the years for whatever reason, and his fans just lap it up. And Don is as "macho" - to the point of almost being homophobic - as it gets. Go figure...

[shesadvl]

I think this topic has been done to death before...but hey...

perhaps this may solve something for you Fungril

Women who wear pants & polo shirts have no thought of gender when they choose their clothing. Men who wear dresses, and women's pants & polo shirts do. It's as simple as that.:D:battingeyelashes:

answer the question... I note that some of the posters here have it right.

[Sophie86]

This thread should be a sticky, so we don't have to keep having this conversation every two weeks. :straightface:

[ReineD]

GG:s dress in mans clothing all the time and know one say a thing.We dress in woman clothing and we get hell and are call all kind of names . WHY

You're new, but you need to know this is a tired, and wholly inaccurate argument.

We are now in 2011, not 1911. Times have changed and sorry, but you need to catch up. Women who wear pants purchased in women's stores do not dress in men's clothing. They are wearing clothes designed for them and that fit their curves. Transmen who buy their clothes in men's stores do wear men's clothing, and if you ask them, they'll tell you that society doesn't look all too kindly at them either.

[shesadvl]

This thread should be a sticky, so we don't have to keep having this conversation every two weeks. :straightface:

lmao sophie.... exactly ya cracked me up...... just wish some would get on the same page and stop floggin a dead horse :lol: :lol2:

and yes Reine its 2011 not 1911.....

[Sophie86]

They are wearing clothes designed for them and that fit their curves. Transmen who buy their clothes in men's stores do wear men's clothing, and if you ask them, they'll tell you that society doesn't look all too kindly at them either.

I was at the stable where we keep my daughter's horse this past Thursday. There was a woman vet there who was working with one of the other horses. She was wearing saggy blue jeans, a sloppy button up shirt, and had her hair cut rather short. Her shape was not curvy. She was definitely not a transman, even though her mannerisms are somewhat masculine. I didn't ask her whether she was a lesbian. Both her assistant and the owner of the stable (a woman who also tends to wear masculine clothing, even though she's married) behaved very naturally around her. They had no problem with how she presents herself.

Sitting here thinking about it, I believe the reason why women can dress that way without comment--especially an older woman like her-- is because they are seen as being asexual, whereas a man who dresses as a woman is seen as hyper-sexual.

^^ I want that theory in the sticky. :cool:

[SabrinaEmily]

You're new, but you need to know this is a tired, and wholly inaccurate argument.

We are now in 2011, not 1911. Times have changed and sorry, but you need to catch up. Women who wear pants purchased in women's stores do not dress in men's clothing. They are wearing clothes designed for them and that fit their curves. Transmen who buy their clothes in men's stores do wear men's clothing, and if you ask them, they'll tell you that society doesn't look all too kindly at them either.

So while I hate to rehash a topic that's been discussed a thousand times here with seemingly no one listening, I still see a lot more women who wear pants that were probably intended for men than men who wear skirts.

Which brings me to my real answer to the question. Women who wear pants, even men's pants, aren't seen as pretending to be someone they're not. Why would they be? Crossdressers are seen that way, and not without reason.

Like some other members here, I've gone out in a skirt presenting as male (and not only to stereotypically queer-friendly places, either) without ever having a real problem. (Actually, if by crossdressing you mean attempting to pass as female, I've never crossdressed in my life.) So I think (and not just from my own experiences) that it's better than many people believe, if they do what is actually equivalent to what many women do.

[sara.s]

Women don't crossdress, but some go drab.

[ReineD]

So while I hate to rehash a topic that's been discussed a thousand times here with seemingly no one listening, I still see a lot more women who wear pants that were probably intended for men than men who wear skirts.

There's no way to argue intelligently about this, since it is a matter of perception ... unless we each pledge to spend an afternoon at our respective malls and ask every woman who walks by where she bought her jeans. LOL

Honestly, I live in a college town and I can tell you that the women I see on campus most definitely aren't wearing men's Levis. :)

[mendy]

Men we just need to get over the way the rest of the world looks at us when we dress in a dress. When your out at first it is annoying but as you feel more compertable the less i care until the next time

[Phylis Nicole Schuyler]

VERY RARLY do I see woman wearing "clothes marketed for men"! when are you guys going to wake up and realize the days of woman wearing skirts and dresses exclusively are LONG GONE. Woman wear pants marketed to woman they are cut to a woman's figure the zipper is shorter and usually the pockets are useless.

until you go out and TRY wearing your femme clothing in public then you have no reason to whine! there is a member here who says he goes out in skirts and dresses all the time without makeup or wig or any attempt to pass as a woman without problems!

For men, women's department is good for tops and dresses, but the juniors section has less curvature built in to the clothes so that skirts and pants in junior sizes fit better. If you dress smartly, you should be seen as just a tall women. My SO is 5'11" and when she is with me wearing pants and ballcap, people call us gentlemen. She doesn't react and nothing more is said or noticed.:2c:

[linda allen]

Who decided what clothes are "women's clothes" and what clothes are "men's clothes"? Was there a committee appointed? Who appointed them and who was on the committee? When did this happen? Why wasn't I told about it? :heehee:

Since women often wear pants, we can consider pants to be "women's clothes" if it makes us feel better. I've been wearing jeans from the women's department in women's sizes for dress jeans for several months. They look better on me but I mis the larger pockets.

Women wear T shirts so we can consider T shirts to be women's clothes. Same thing with sandals.

In the end though, people think what they want and some say what they want even when they shouldn't. I got a lot of grief when I startd wearing my hair long (like the Beatles) in the mid 60s.

[Billie Jean]

Everytime I have been out dressed I have had a beard. I still got compliments from GGs. Billie Jean

[ReineD]

OK ... here's another thought.

If women who wear pants (or jeans) are wearing men's clothes, then surely the CDs who wear such items, no matter if purchased in a women's clothing store, are also wearing men's clothes and are therefore not expressing their inner femininity? They are not crossdressed? :D

[Lucy_Bella]

I think most here have answered your question very well. I think we all must understand that the first purpose of clothing is for protection that's the main reason .. In time clothing has grown to not just only protection but sexual appeal between the sexes as many here find use in, when emulating. So its not the clothing that disturbs society it is the signal you send out ,men expressing fem ,females expressing masc. Bible thumpers and biggots or people who just hate for no apparent reason other than their life must really suck ,feel threatened to those of us who feel the need to express.

Don't think that women who do express receive welcome arms when doing so , dating one who does express, I now see first hand how cruel people can be .

[Jessica Who]

Sometimes they can if it is TOO manly -- they are accused of being butch or something

[Rachel Morley]

{edit: women} aren't trying to appear masculine or emulate a male; when women dress in male clothing, it's most often to do some kind of work, not for appearances sake.
I'm assuming that when you say "get hell" you're actually taking about (in a general sense) why men wearing women's clothes is looked upon differently than women wearing men's clothes. Like Sometimes_Miss says, when women wear guys clothes it's not done in the same way (trying to pass) it's more of a fashion choice or a work related thing.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think what you are also alluding to is the double standard, but then that's there because we still live in a male privileged world. As long as our society continues to view women as inferior to men, (especially at the higher levels of control in the world) for a lot of men, any effort to teach boys to be feminine will be condemned as degrading to boys. The social and gender hierarchy dictates that when a woman dresses in a way that is perceived to be masculine it's not considered a problem because she's going "up the scale". However, when a man dresses in a way that is perceived to be feminine it is a problem because (especially amongst other men) he's lowering himself because in their eyes dressing feminine is being less of a man, and being less of a man is considered a bad thing. In other words if you are male then there is an expection that you show a certain level of masculininty. That, IMHO, is the real reason why (as you put it) we "get hell" if we want to dress and present as the opposite sex. :2c:

[bredalee25]

VERY RARLY do I see woman wearing "clothes marketed for men"! when are you guys going to wake up and realize the days of woman wearing skirts and dresses exclusively are LONG GONE. Woman wear pants marketed to woman they are cut to a woman's figure the zipper is shorter and usually the pockets are useless.

until you go out and TRY wearing your femme clothing in public then you have no reason to whine! there is a member here who says he goes out in skirts and dresses all the time without makeup or wig or any attempt to pass as a woman without problems!

Aprilrain had you read my post and understood what It's meaning was you'd know pants are not what i'm talking about. How many times have you seen or heard about a GG wearing mens shirts and short skirts. Even shania twain did it in her video of man i feel like a woman which has the lyric mens shirts and short skirts in the song. So don't try to tell me woman don't wear clothes marketed for men.

[Alice Torn]

It is 2011, not 1911, but, if I had a time machine, I might choose 1911! Very good comments Rachel Morley, too.That seems to be the case.

[JulieK1980]

Perhaps this topic is an attempt at self justification by people that have some of their own issues with crossdressing. "It's okay that I do this, because those people over there are doing it too"

I don't see too many women wearing men's pants. I do however see lots of women wearing Women's pants. I see how this is complicated, but we live in a world where women have their own pants. Or perhaps I'm just being cynical and commenting in a thread I see repeated over and over and over........:brolleyes:

[skirtsuit]

A guy wearing womens trousers is MtFtM crossdressing, which is not the same as wearing mans trousers.

It is interesting, as an aside, how much nice womens clothing is derived directly from menswear. I have been lusting over high heeled loafers lately to go nicely with a tweed skirt suit. Is that also MtFtM CDing?

Best,
SS

[MaryAnn40c]

I wear womens pants/jeans all the time now and no one says anything....people either dont know or dont care....

[SabrinaEmily]

There's no way to argue intelligently about this, since it is a matter of perception ... unless we each pledge to spend an afternoon at our respective malls and ask every woman who walks by where she bought her jeans. LOL

Honestly, I live in a college town and I can tell you that the women I see on campus most definitely aren't wearing men's Levis. :)

I have no doubt most of them aren't. Nor did I claim, as some thoughtlessly do, that women wearing pants are by that fact crossdressing. But how many men do you see wearing skirts as men? Almost certainly even fewer than women wearing men's pants.

(I don't think either is crossdressing, since I don't consider it crossdressing unless one is actually trying to pass as the other sex.)

Also, it bears repeating that I have gone out in a skirt while presenting as male, many times, and not just to specifically queer-friendly places, and I've never gotten anything resembling hell for it. So I'm not convinced of the truth of this thread's premise.

[ReineD]

^ Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you said you saw more women wearing men's pants than women's pants.

Yes, I do agree there are more women who wear women's pants than men who wear man-skirts. I think if there were as many men wanting to wear skirts as there were women who wanted to wear pants in the 40s and 50s, then there would likely be a style revolution among men's clothing. So the issue, I think, is there just aren't enough of you to make a strong impact.

Men and women generally do want to differentiate themselves. So, even if the majority of men got tired of wearing constraining pants, and the idea of wearing man-skirts did take off, the man-skirt styles would still be vastly different than women's skirts. And so how many CDs in this forum and everywhere else would be satisfied with wearing man-skirts? I'm venturing a guess that most would refuse to wear them, and would still rather cross the gender clothing barrier by wearing skirts styled for women. So, the issues would still not be any different than they are now.

I think instead we need to work on laws that recognize transgender rights, better education in schools about gender variance and more positive exposure in the media. But, this does require some degree of activism that I think few people here are willing to engage in, since they are so deeply in the closet.

It is a quandary. And it is unfortunate.

[Donna1]

i just wish I had a girls wordrobe!!!! LOL!!!

[jillleanne]

Because woman are not trying to present themselves as men. Simple.

[Vickie_CDTV]

Sitting here thinking about it, I believe the reason why women can dress that way without comment--especially an older woman like her-- is because they are seen as being asexual, whereas a man who dresses as a woman is seen as hyper-sexual.

^^ I want that theory in the sticky. :cool:

It is that, and the fact regardless that masculinity is more valued and femininity is seen as inferior; regardless of how accepting a society may be of others who are different, I still can't think of any society where this isn't true.

[Babeba]

Am I the only person who kind of pictured a man and a woman dressed up in the same outfit with a thread title like that? With the guy getting a lot of flak and the girl not?


Aprilrain had you read my post and understood what It's meaning was you'd know pants are not what i'm talking about. How many times have you seen or heard about a GG wearing mens shirts and short skirts. Even shania twain did it in her video of man i feel like a woman which has the lyric mens shirts and short skirts in the song. So don't try to tell me woman don't wear clothes marketed for men.

Bredalee, when 'Man, I Feel Like a Woman' came out there was a real fad for oversized button down shirts tied in ways to make them hug feminine curves; ways and sizes which men would never wear those shirts. Shania Twain's song played on gendered ideas about how one could take some of the priviledges of masculinity and revel in them as a female, like complete freedom of attraction, for instance. It was meant to be super cheeky with saying 'Man, I feel like a woman!' Since then Boy Shorts have been popular (brief underwear that had a much longer side than your usual bikini, but never quite anything that you would get the average guy to wear) as well as the Boyfriend Jacket/Boyfriend Cardi - big, slouchy, comfy oversize warm things that look like you took them from your boyfriend's couch before you left his place and say more about the fact that you HAVE a boyfriend who is so nuts about you he doesn't mind you taking his things, it helps show everyone you're his (which has a lot of interesting male/female passive/dominant undertones to it as well).

[DeeDeeB]

When I went to public school, boys wore slacks and girls wore skirts or dresses. That was the dress code and anyone breaking it was sent home. Since then, women have fought for the right to wear slacks and suits (men's clothes) and have won that right. Meanwhile, gays fought for their rights, as well as minorities, and have gained considerable acceptance. I watched it happen and supported them the best I could. At the same time, most of us cds stayed in the closet (myself included) and have tried to grab on to the coat tails of the GBL movement. The T was added by a tg who met with HRC and convinced them our concerns were in sync with theirs.

Gender identification has gained protection in many states from hate crimes, but until we get federal protection from employment discrimination, we still are at risk. Trans gender identity is still considered a psychosis by the psychiatric community which is a major snag too. We have an opportunity to change that in the next edition, so look into how you can affect that.

I want to thank all you girls who are "out and proud" and I hope to join your ranks soon. That is the only way we will gain acceptance from the general public. That, and support equal rights legislation for all people.

Dee :fairy1:

[Babeba]

When I went to public school, boys wore slacks and girls wore skirts or dresses. That was the dress code and anyone breaking it was sent home. Since then, women have fought for the right to wear slacks and suits (men's clothes) and have won that right. Meanwhile, gays fought for their rights, as well as minorities, and have gained considerable acceptance. I watched it happen and supported them the best I could. At the same time, most of us cds stayed in the closet (myself included) and have tried to grab on to the coat tails of the GBL movement. The T was added by a tg who met with HRC and convinced them our concerns were in sync with theirs.

Granted, I wasn't around back then - but wasn't one of the big points of the Stonewall Riots (pivotal moment in the Civil Rights movement leading to support for gay rights) the fact that many crossdressers at the Stonewall were arrested and couldn't just slip back into the crowd? Wasn't that a big part of the riots, with protesters trying to get them released?




I want to thank all you girls who are "out and proud" and I hope to join your ranks soon. That is the only way we will gain acceptance from the general public. That, and support equal rights legislation for all people.

Dee :fairy1:

Dee, I TOTALLY agree with you! Equal rights for all is the only way to do it up right! :)

[Rachel Morley]

It was meant to be super cheeky with saying 'Man, I feel like a woman!' Since then Boy Shorts have been popular (brief underwear that had a much longer side than your usual bikini, but never quite anything that you would get the average guy to wear) as well as the Boyfriend Jacket/Boyfriend Cardi - big, slouchy, comfy oversize warm things that look like you took them from your boyfriend's couch before you left his place and say more about the fact that you HAVE a boyfriend who is so nuts about you he doesn't mind you taking his things, it helps show everyone you're his (which has a lot of interesting male/female passive/dominant undertones to it as well).
Now that is a very interesting comment. Yes, I totally agree ... there is so much more going on when you go a level deeper. I think I would love to have a late night philosophical conversation with you over a glass of wine :) ... although you might find me listening intently more than me talking :)

[KellyJameson]

The reasons are hidden within those that are giving you hell. My hair is long and from the back I have been mistaken for a women and have had men make comments when walking behind me only to become angry from embarassment when they realize I'm not. Some girlfriends have found it to be sexually confusing to be attracted to a man that looks feminine because it leaves them wondering if they are lesbian and whether I would be able to protect them from a masculine looking male. Some men feel that I do a poor job representing men as " strong" so take away from the image they want to project to the world and more importantly have of themselves. In every case the reasons are rooted in fear.

[Pythos]

To those that keep harping on the point that women that wear men's styled clothing (EVEN IF MADE FOR WOMEN) are not presenting as men, do us a favor.

Get into your skirts, hose, heels, and blouse and DO NOT wear a feminine styled hair, but a unisex style (oh wait, that's right there is no unisex style hair, there is butch or fem it would seem), minimal to no makeup, and act like a man.

See how far you get before you are imediately put down, ridiculed, and sent on a trip to the house of pain.

My style is basically the reverse of when a woman chooses to not wear makeup, wear clothing designed off of men's styles, and not shave. In my Clubbing circles I have a following, several guys have actually copied the concept, and I have attracted a great person. But that is in the clubbing circuit. My style is also very very fem.

Could I go out among Joe public like that? Not likely. Could I wear a skirt in an otherwise masculine style? Not at present, and that is because of the aforementioned numbers. We need numbers to be able to wear what we want. I do what I can. I have worn skirts in an otherwise male fashion, and I wear leggings daily.

What give the bad names for CDers are the "freaky kind" the ones that give a bad impression. The overly flamboyantly catty, and down right silly kind. The ones that to the GGs are more an insult to women than a honorable appearance.

But about the point about the women not trying to emulate men. No they are not, because they don't need to to "blend in". If a CD can pass and blend in, then he is doing pretty damned good, but really nothing in the name of men getting more Latitude in their presentation and style.

[SabrinaEmily]

Pythos, I'm glad I reread your post carefully, because I was about to think that no one read what I wrote once again. But apparently you have been walking the walk on this one, since you have gone out in a skirt as a male, unlike most of the people who complain on these threads.

As I said, I don't think the situation is as bad as you think it is, though maybe it's different in your area (and I shouldn't let my opinion be skewed by the "San Francisco" part of your location, because there are plenty of places in the Bay Area where I wouldn't want to go out in a skirt either.)

Personally, I hate heels, and the weather was too warm for hose at the time, but I did go out in a skirt and blouse recently without trying to pass as female, and didn't have any problems, which is consistent with every other time I've done so.

[Samantha W]

I think my signature line says it well,

[Pythos]

Madonna, hit the nail on the head with that statement. What is sad are the women that go along with this notion.

[Ellyn]

Simply put; Over recent eras the expectations of women have fallen, brought about by the anti-woman "feminists movement", while the expectations of men have remained higher, and thus the standards bar is higher for men.

GG:s dress in mans clothing all the time and know one say a thing.We dress in woman clothing and we get hell and are call all kind of names . WHY

SALLY:2c:

[Shananigans]

Let me explain something...

Women wear clothes made for women. I wear women's jeans, shorts, pants from the women's department...

Why is it not crossdressing??

1. Probably because I don't visit forums to meet other people that wear jeans and pants.
2. I don't get caught up in a "fog" where I go out and buy a ton of jeans, post pictures of me in various jean poses, look at pictures of other people in jeans, and generally obsess on the jeans.
3. I don't go through the dilemma of what wearing jeans means for my mental health. Am I a man? Am I born in the right gender? What do these jeans mean for me?
4. I don't see the jeans as "part of who I am." I could stop wearing jeans at any time...I definitely would if they suddenly went out of fashion.
5. If women didn't wear jeans, pants, suits, etc....I WOULDN'T wear them either. The thought wouldn't even cross my mind that it is something that I would want to do because I like to wear things that other women wear. It makes me comfortable. The fact is that men don't normally wear "female clothes", and you do. It's an ugly fact, but it's the truth. If tomorrow, Cosmo told me that jeans were out and that any woman caught wearing them was "out of style." I would unceremoniously donate all of my jeans to Goodwill. If it was only common place for women to wear skirts and dresses, I'd be wearing skirts and dresses.
6. I could go on and on, but I don't need to...this is silly.

[sara.s]

If we don't care much about jeans/pants and don't like wearing them why are we annoyed when women wear it? This topic reeks of jealousy. :doh:

[MissTelegothika]

Hi there all,

Babeba - Nope. I imagined it as a picture too. Although mine was with a humurous stance.

As for the topic. I'd just like to chip in with that its probably true that GG's don't get flak on the whole nowdays as they still appear as women even when wearing trousers (pants) etc. Plus, clothing that is considered feminine (IE: a dress) isn't as practical as clothing that is considered masculine (IE: trousers.) Trousers are practical, dresses aren't. So its logical that society (especially in our present day world of relaxed fashions) would tolerate dress to trousers but not the other way round.

Also - a lady displaying a seemingly more masculine side may be seen as a show of strength of character etc. However a man displaying femininity may be seen as weak in the eyes of men and women. This is intriguing, as - if women are supposed to be as equal as men and vica versa nowdays - why isn't a feminine-man seen as being as valid as a masculine woman? I've heard a few arguments that have suggested that thats because women are still seen by men as being weaker. Women know this and are thus insecure, hence they feel uncomfortable when they see a crossdressing man as it reminds them of how society sees them and they want to distance themselves from that image.

Highly controversial arguement that, perhaps. I'm not sure If I agree fully with it.

I'd personally say that, in relationships though, men are expected to put up with their GG partner wearing masculine clothes & adopting traditionally masculine pursuits. However if a man crossdresses or admits to doing something traditionally feminine - its usually game-over for the relationship. I find that highly unfair & it angers me somewhat.

[Babeba]

Let me explain something...
5. If women didn't wear jeans, pants, suits, etc....I WOULDN'T wear them either. The thought wouldn't even cross my mind that it is something that I would want to do because I like to wear things that other women wear. It makes me comfortable. The fact is that men don't normally wear "female clothes", and you do. It's an ugly fact, but it's the truth. If tomorrow, Cosmo told me that jeans were out and that any woman caught wearing them was "out of style." I would unceremoniously donate all of my jeans to Goodwill. If it was only common place for women to wear skirts and dresses, I'd be wearing skirts and dresses.
6. I could go on and on, but I don't need to...this is silly.

This is pretty much the reason why I almost never wore trousers when I lived in the UK!


Simply put; Over recent eras the expectations of women have fallen, brought about by the anti-woman "feminists movement", while the expectations of men have remained higher, and thus the standards bar is higher for men.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by saying that feminist movements are anti-woman. Which feminist movement are you talking about, and how is it 'anti woman'? In what way have expectations of women fallen? Over the past hundred-odd years I can think of (from Florence Nightingale, Mary Seacole and other women who launched women out of homes and into modern nursing to wonderful people like Gloria Steinem and Judy Chicago through to third wave feminism with too many amazing people to name) I can only really think of rising expectations: rising life expectancies, infancy survival expectancies, career expectancies, lifetime earnings expectancies, access to clean water and shelter expectancies (though in many rural areas even in North America much less war-torn and drought-stricken nations this is not the case)... Or do you and I simply have different priorities?


Now that is a very interesting comment. Yes, I totally agree ... there is so much more going on when you go a level deeper. I think I would love to have a late night philosophical conversation with you over a glass of wine :) ... although you might find me listening intently more than me talking :)

Rachel, I'm sure that Crystal will tell you that I can fill enough conversation for three people! :)

[Shananigans]

Also, this topic completely excludes FTM CDs.

I think that the fact that there ARE FTM CDs and that they go about their way of dressing completely different than a GG that does not CD makes this thread a moot point.

In fact, just jump on over to their section and take a gander. The men there could probably set us all straight on this topic, and they could tell us exactly what's the difference between CDing and being a GG in jeans.

People need dem some edumacation.

But, I think they ran away from this part of the forum.

[girlygirly]

GG:s dress in mans clothing all the time and know one say a thing.We dress in woman clothing and we get hell and are call all kind of names . WHY

SALLY:2c:
GG's have more of a tendency to do it for fashion reasons, and don't try to pass as men, while men have more of a tendency to do it for sexual reasons or issues of gender confusion.

Rock bands have worn women's clothing for years, but get no grief because they mostly do it for issues of fashion. It's a costume, not a statement of gender.

When lesbians regularly dress in drab, they get noticed and called on it. I know several lesbians who have been taunted for not looking girly enough.

[ReineD]

Also - a lady displaying a seemingly more masculine side may be seen as a show of strength of character etc. However a man displaying femininity may be seen as weak in the eyes of men and women. This is intriguing, as - if women are supposed to be as equal as men and vica versa nowdays - why isn't a feminine-man seen as being as valid as a masculine woman?

Actually, there have been changes in the male population towards the more feminine. Men nowadays do many things that would have been thought feminine at the turn of the century: they change diapers, give bottles to their babies, help with the housework, do the laundry, cook, sew on missing buttons. A dad who cares for his daughter and does her hair, shops for her dresses, etc is not considered less valid as a man. In generations past, wouldn't a widow have relegated his children to a female relative to raise if he couldn't afford a nanny? Mothers raise their sons to help with the housework nowadays. This would have been unheard of before.

Doing the chores I've mentioned is no longer considered strictly a feminine thing to do, just as wearing pants and having a career is no longer considered strictly masculine.

Have some of these changes been reflected in men's appearance? I think so. Men wear pink shirts and people don't raise an eyebrow. There are skin care products for men. Men also color their hair to cover the gray. It's not out of the ordinary for guys to have long hair or wear earrings.

Just saying.

And Shannon .... I loved your answer!! :D

[Pythos]

Shananigans,

Do you mean to tell me a male, as a male, can openly wear a skirt, and or other items of feminine clothing, and NOT face a bunch of bull? This is what women are doing when they head out the door in clothing BASED off of MALE clothing. When she heads out the door wearing a flannel shirt, and so on. She is not trying to pass as a male, BUT she also does not face a barrage of insults, possible beatings and so on.

A guy going out in clothing patterned off of, or even directly from the women's aisle will face such. There is indeed a double standard.

I have a FtoM friend and HE even says this is true. HE can go out in what he wears on an absolute daily basis, and face absolutely NO BS, until he lets know he is FtoM. (which for some reason he does....I don't know why) But he will vouch with me that this double standard exists, and he thinks it is absolutely bogus that I cannot wear my skirts and such, without ridicule, and he can wear what he likes.

[Shananigans]

Shananigans,

Do you mean to tell me a male, as a male, can openly wear a skirt, and or other items of feminine clothing, and NOT face a bunch of bull? This is what women are doing when they head out the door in clothing BASED off of MALE clothing. When she heads out the door wearing a flannel shirt, and so on. She is not trying to pass as a male, BUT she also does not face a barrage of insults, possible beatings and so on.

A guy going out in clothing patterned off of, or even directly from the women's aisle will face such. There is indeed a double standard.

I have a FtoM friend and HE even says this is true. HE can go out in what he wears on an absolute daily basis, and face absolutely NO BS, until he lets know he is FtoM. (which for some reason he does....I don't know why) But he will vouch with me that this double standard exists, and he thinks it is absolutely bogus that I cannot wear my skirts and such, without ridicule, and he can wear what he likes.

I'm not saying CDs get a bunch of bull, because they do.

However, I have no idea of the history of my clothing really. My mom put me in a pair of jeans when I was probably in the first or second grade and I have been wearing them since then.

As a first or second grader, I did not sit and consider the history of my clothes and the fact that they may or may not have been modeled off the male design. I wore them because my mom said that these were the clothes that are appropriate for me to wear and though my tastes have changed, I still wear pretty much the same things.

As a CD, you pretty much make a very active choice to go against the grain of things. You choose to wear clothes that society has said, "Hmmm...that's not so appropriate for this day and age." So, this is the difference between a CD and a GG who wears jeans and a t-shirt.

I'm not saying CDs don't get flack for what they do, but what I AM saying is that our two experiences in clothing matters are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

When you say, "A guy going out in clothing patterned off of, or even directly from the woman's aisle face such [abuses]. There is indeed a double standard." I agree it's not fair that people can't just wear what they want. But, just because it isn't fair does mean that I am CDing. Now, if I bound my chest, wore pants designed for a man's shape (shopped in the man's department), wore men's shoes, and donned a male haircut...sure, I would be CDing.

But, I've never really seen women do this. I suspect they are out there, but they are probably FTM TS that I can't "read" very well.

I'm sure some FTMs TS will say that women CD, but I'm also pretty sure that a lot of them will say that there is a big difference in me putting on my "painted on" skinny jeans, boots, and a flannel shirt that is unbuttoned so low that I am about to fall out of it...and the FTM that is wearing loose men's jeans, men's boots, and a bulky flannel shirt with a bound chest.

It just seems very distinct to me.

Again, CDs have it hard and I'm not saying that they don't. But, y'all aren't going to get your way by pissing off GGs by saying they do exactly the same thing. Because, as we have seen, most people just don't agree with this statement and it gets you nowhere.

The big distinction (and I don't know why people can't see it) is that GGs are conforming to a societal expectation and CDs are bucking against it.

Good for you guys and all of that...I complete support it and that's why I am here. HOWEVER, I'm just wearing what my momma put me in when I was getting ready for school in the second grade. I have "big girl" jeans now, but I still pretty much follow the "what a girl should wear" type of thing.

I literally have no attachment to jeans, slacks, etc. I wear them because people say they are cool and I want to look cool. If I woke up tomorrow and jeans were no longer cool, I'd throw them out.

CDs on the other hand go in a completely different direction all together. They go with what is completely not accepted and maintain those clothing items even though they are unaccepted and get poor reception from most women and men of society.

These are the distinctions. I can't make it any more plain than that.

[Boo]

I actually don't know .....

[ReineD]

Pythos, read this post #47: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?161350-Why-do-we-get-hell-for-dressing-up-and-gg-quot-s-don-quot-t&p=2621060&viewfull=1#post2621060

Even if the majority of men wore man-skirts, the issues would still be there .. not because there is a double standard, but because fundamentally men and women do wish to differentiate themselves visually. Apart from the different ways we look in the raw, our external presentation choice is the only way to emphasize the gender differentiation.

You may well be one of the few members here who would be happy wearing man-skirts and looking just like all the other men who wear them (pretend for a moment that they do). But the majority of CDs here would still want to wear the girl skirts, and so there would still be bias against them.

I suppose the only way to have true equality, would be for all of us to adopt the exact same styles (doesn't matter if it is pants or skirts .. pick one and everyone wears it): same colors, same fabrics, same styling. But even then, the women's clothes would have to be tailored differently than the mens' in order to accomodate their body shapes, and so the CDs would still want to buy these clothes and wear forms and hip pads in order to fit into them and look like women. And we'd still have the same issues: bias against the CDers.

So then I guess the only way around that would be to make it fashionable for all men to have long hair, wear breast forms and hip pads, and so in addition to having all the clothes be the same colors, fabrics, and styles, they would now all be tailored the same as well.

But then there would be no possibility to crossdress, and we'd have a forum full of unhappy campers. :p

It's not about double standards. It's about the two genders wanting to differentiate themselves, except the CDs who want to go to the women's side.

[sara.s]

I actually don't know ..... are you really a cd? who are you?

[Pythos]

Okay.

So a girl at age two is put in pants, and throughout her life there is really no issue.

So tell me what happens to the family that alternatively puts their son in skirts, dresses, or pants. Think about this.

Could this be another reason why there is this double standard, because it is from day one instilled in everyone?

Reine, If this drive to differentiate were so innate as you say, then why did women start wearing pants? Why would they start wearing something that was masculine from the get go? (curiously enough if you look at clothing history, as I have done here in the past, Men wore lace, skirts, tights, stockings, high heels, makeup, and so on.)

That drive to differentiate more often than not manifests in the form of outright sexism, and or bigotry, at least as far as I can tell.

Something else that happens to men if they choose to dare cross the gender clothing line as men....their mental sanity is called into question. This to my knowledge does not happen to a GG that chooses to wear pants predominately.

[Aprilrain]

Something else that happens to men if they choose to dare cross the gender clothing line as men....their mental sanity is called into question. This to my knowledge does not happen to a GG that chooses to wear pants predominately.

Why DO you guys want to wear woman's clothing how weird!!!! ; )

the reason is simple Pythos Masculinity is seen as strong Femininity is seen as week, woman wanting to be stronger is understandable woman who want to emulate men (though that is NOT want is going on when a woman puts on female pants) makes sense, she is trying to gain more power for herself in the social structure. NOW all of that is a bunch of male ego baloney but thats the unstated wisdom (male wisdom....HHmmm??) Men wanting to be weaker or move DOWN the social hierarchy is seen as insanity. Why would you want to give up your elevated status as a male??????

BUT who made all this shit up to begin with? Woman? NOT! So if you want to complain go do it to the rest of your bros out there who are likely to be the ones to beat you up for a public display of male femininity!

As far as woman wearing pants is concerned its more practical in a thousand different situations than a dress or skirt and THAT is the reason woman were pants!

[Melissa Jill]

The vast majority of time we don't get hell for it. GGs seem to endure a lot more scrutiny for what they wear, such as dressing too ****ty/tarty/etc

[Pythos]

So if you want to complain go do it to the rest of your bros

I HAVE BEEN!!! LOL!!!

and yes, much of what you said is verbatim so called "male wisdom"

So here is the question. Why do WOMEN continue to go after those men? Why do women in general want to be with guys that think women are weaker.

Why do women in general PUT DOWN a guy wanting to have the same latitude when it comes to presentation, and yes possibly "step lower on the hierarchy"

Mellisa...Where have you gone out as a man in feminine clothing? I just gotta know.

[Shananigans]

I guess my mom just dressed me as all the other mothers dressed their kids. But, my mom wasn't like super controlling of what I wore. For a good portion of my childhood, I went to school wearing a shirt with shark on it (I even bathed in it), a cape, and a princess crown (from the game Pretty, Pretty Princess). I'm sure some mothers raised their eyebrows at my mom letting me where this to school, but she just let me make my own clothing decisions.

I eventually got made fun of and started dressing like a normal child. True story.

If I have a son, I'd dress him like all the other boys were getting dressed in that day and age. But, if he came home and decided to wear a bunny costume and a crown, I'd let him go for it. At some point, he'd make his own decisions on how to dress like I did.

Which, were mainly influenced by society. Idk what I would wear every day if I could wear ANYTHING that I wanted to wear...hmmmmm... I'd honestly probably wear vintage dresses every day, but I would get a lot of funny looks for that if I was just wearing a vintage dress to class or to McDonalds with my buds.

I agree that female fashion changed to gain equal standing with men, but I never think about this when I get dressed in the morning. I just kind of wear what I feel like wearing and what would be appropriate for the occasion.

Furthermore, I don't really think when seek out a$$holes. I think girls get with a guy that seems pretty legit and then 6 months later, you find out he's an a$$hole. At least that has been my experience. (Not with my Biff right now!!)

[Pythos]

Shananigans,

In my life...The GG decided to go with a man that was married, with two kids from a previous marriage. In other words he cheated on two women he married already. Another girl went out with a man that was KNOWN to beat up his girlfriends...guess what. I don't think I need to go into those details, let's just say, not good.

Women, at least around here do seem to hook up with guys that already have a rep of being a lousy human being. When I worked at paratransit, I saw it all the time.


I agree that female fashion changed to gain equal standing with men, but I never think about this when I get dressed in the morning. I just kind of wear what I feel like wearing and what would be appropriate for the occasion.
This line has so much in it to work off of. Unfortunately I am just a bit too tired to do so. (boo), I will see if anyone can touch on what I want to say, if my mind were able to at this point. LOL

[Aprilrain]

Pythos your going off in two completely different directions here. Is this about clothes or woman who have low self esteem? Anyway if I'm to believe my eyes when I read quite a lot of the post here in the CD section I would say there are just as many men who stay with lousy females as there are females who stay with lousy men. Lets face it MOST relationships don't end well which is why they end! We all debase ourselves at some point to secure the approval of someone else most of us learn our lesson in like 7 grade, some never do. As to why a lot of woman disapprove of CDing (at least at first) well there is the obvious he hid it for a long time and NOTHING pisses a woman off more than a man who hides shit from her. Then beyond that I think a lot of CDers have overt shame over their dressing, If he's ashamed of it why wouldn't SHE be. I think a lot of people are just comfortable with the gender binary and don't want to be put out by having to deal with someone who "breaks" those rules.

[Shananigans]

I have to agree with April.

I think there's a lot of people with self-esteem issues, but idk if this has anything to do with why women wear "men's clothes." When I put on my skinny jeans and some knee high stiletto boots...I'm not doing it because I'm insecure lol. Believe me, I do not suffer from low self-esteem in any shape, form, or fashion. I figured that would be blatantly obvious :)

The reason I dress like that is because it's what is "hot" now and when I wear it, I feel pretty hot.

Would I feel hot in man pants or a tux? Probably not. But, my boyfriend's brother was so obsessed with himself when he was dressed up in a suit. He felt totally hot. He looked pretty hot too. It's whatever floats your boat.

But, to say women who wear jeans that were originally worn by farmers back in the day are CDing and this has something to do with self-esteem is beyond my level of understanding.

[Pythos]

What I was trying to address, and failed miserably, is the "male image" that is put upon us. Women for the most part would much more be with an abusive male that fits the "male image" than be with a non-abusive, and loving male that chooses to not dress acording to the gender norm.

Oddly enough though, and I have just recalled this, so please forgive...my dressing styles were not the reason for the breakups. It was though more about another male not knowing when to back off, and triggering my jealous side. My jealous side however was to realize I was not worth it. Not the girl having problems. When I saw the guys that would come in and wreck things they were true pieces of crap. One was an out womanizer. The GG however is what made my eyes open up and realize it is not I that is the issue, it is the girl.

Now, addressing women being able to without a thought put on an item of clothing that in the past was considered masculine wear only. What does this really say? Why is it you as a female can do that, but a guy that would prefer something other than jeans, slack, shorts, for below the waist, gets grief from society, and usually rejection from women? Case in point my mother. According to her I should wear nothing but jeans, and have close cropped hair. My niece however can wear what ever she likes (within decency), and have her hair how she wishes.

I pose it again.

For those CDers that think they can go out as a male in the clothing they like and not face trouble...then do it. April, I am not sure if you are TS or not, so not sure if you can do that. I KNOW that I would face all kinds of stupid bigotry if I went out of my house wearing the outfit I have on at this moment. A nice T-shirt, black pencil skirt, bare legs, and I would have to work out the footwear. I have no makeup, no wig, no jewlery. Now, if I were a female, I could totally get away with this, but I am not a female.

I honestly do not get why there seem to be blinders to this. Why GGs for the most part do not see the one sidedness of their stance when it comes to males gaining more latitude in how they dress. Just go onto the net and look up the reactions to marc Jacobs styles for men in skirts. Now look at the statements of some of the female fashionazis. They are so beyond sexist it is not funny.

I'll post some if you so desire.

[JulieK1980]

But, to say women who wear jeans that were originally worn by farmers back in the day are CDing and this has something to do with self-esteem is beyond my level of understanding.

I'm going to go out on a limb here but, (and any GG can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think women give the slightest thought to wearing pants, I don't think it has anything to do with self esteem, or even have anything to do with women's rights. I think they wear them because they think they look good, and our society says that women can wear pants. This in no way shape or form even relates to crossdressing.

About 40 years ago men that wore jeans were poor. Can we conclude from this logic, that today men that wear jeans WANT to be poor? What was the case in the past doesn't directly correlate to the present. Just because women used to not wear pants 50 years ago, does NOT mean they are crossdressing NOW when they wear pants.


As to the women going for "lousy" guys, well yes many of them do. Also many men go for "lousy" women. This COULD be related to self-esteem.

[ReineD]

About 40 years ago men that wore jeans were poor. Can we conclude from this logic, that today men that wear jeans WANT to be poor? What was the case in the past doesn't directly correlate to the present. Just because women used to not wear pants 50 years ago, does NOT mean they are crossdressing NOW when they wear pants.

I know. It really is an old and tired argument, that is simply IMO a rationalization for some CDs who wish to wear skirts. :p Not that there's anything wrong with wearing skirts, but just own it and wear them!

For those who say there is a double standard, think about this: both men and women in general dress in a manner that is much, much more casual nowadays. I remember in the 70s it was common for men to wear business suits and ties to work and this is no longer the case. Look at any pics of people in downtown settings during the 40s. Men wore hats, suits & ties, trench coats. Now they wear jeans, baseball caps & Tshirts. Women wore dresses & hats and now they were jeans & tops.

I was doing errands the other day, getting in and out of my car, carrying stuff, getting gas. It occurred to me that it was just so much easier doing this while wearing a pair of jeans and not having to worry about a dress getting caught in the car door, or getting a snag in hose, or having to carry stuff while wearing heels. Why would I want to get all dressed up just to go to the hardware store? So if men can adopt a dress-down style since the 40s, why can't the women as well? lol This doesn't mean that people have given up dressing altogether. Go to nice restaurants, or the opera or theater, and you'll see both men and women dressed nicely. In some monied or professional circles, people are more fashion conscious than the average person ... just not so much in every day, middle-of-the-road America. A lot of this has to do with finances as well, and the ease of caring for wash and wear garments.

Personally, I love looking at a man who is wearing a well-cut suit and who looks as if he takes pride in his appearance, rather than the beer-bellied, stained Tshirt, sneakered, baseball-cap clad men with jeans that are falling half-way down to their knees. But, it's just not something that is all that common place anymore and it's OK, I accept this. :p

[Shananigans]

I'm going to go out on a limb here but, (and any GG can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think women give the slightest thought to wearing pants, I don't think it has anything to do with self esteem, or even have anything to do with women's rights. I think they wear them because they think they look good, and our society says that women can wear pants. This in no way shape or form even relates to crossdressing.

I feel like you're 100% correct. Also, I would fork over 200$ on a nice pair of jeans that I know is going to last me a long time. I think jeans are anything but the poor man's wear nowadays.

I mean, we could argue about the history of clothing throughout the ages, but it's just not applicable in the average person's decision making on what they are going to wear before they walk out the door.

Historically, ballerinas wore ballet shoes. (I guess they still do...but, whatever...) I wear ballet flats to class a lot with skinny jeans and a cute top. Does this mean I want to be a ballerina? No. One day, I picked up a magazine and they had ballet flats in the clothing section. Before I knew it, there were ballet flats in every shoe store. I told myself, "Well, jeez...I guess everyone is wearing ballet flats. I'd like to be one of the cool kids..." So, I got pair or 12. Ballet never once crossed my mind.


Women for the most part would much more be with an abusive male that fits the "male image" than be with a non-abusive, and loving male that chooses to not dress acording to the gender norm.

Now, addressing women being able to without a thought put on an item of clothing that in the past was considered masculine wear only. What does this really say? Why is it you as a female can do that, but a guy that would prefer something other than jeans, slack, shorts, for below the waist, gets grief from society, and usually rejection from women?

Pythos, I really disagree that women would rather be in an abusive relationship than with someone who is a gender bender. I think you were in a unique situation. I don't want to say this and sound mean...but, probably, 90% of women would rather not be with either an abusive SO or a gender bending SO. For obvious reasons, women don't seek out abusive relationships. It's a very complex matter as to why women stay in those relationships, but it's not because they WANT their SO to be abusive. I think most of the time they stay in it because they think they can CHANGE that person. At least I know this is what my mother thought.

As to why a lot of women don't want to date CDs...well, the concerns are echoed all over this forum.

The true fact of the matter is that now, jeans, slacks, suits, etc. are not considered masculine wear. They haven't been considered masculine for about 50-60 years?????

Now, women who do wear MEN'S clothing (as in they got it out of the MEN'S department) are not viewed favorably. If they are not FTM TS, then they are often called "bull dykes" or "butch." They are a subject of ridicule and are automatically considered lesbian because of their clothing choices.

Sound familiar?

If I were to wear men's clothing that were designed for a man, I would get this same label. It might not be so much the label of "crossdresser," so much as I must be a huge dyke muff diving lesbian.

I don't find those labels nice either. I also don't like associating women that dress in men's clothes as lesbians or bisexual, because people expect me to dress as such. This is the same qualms that the gay community has with CDs. Gay men try to emphasize that they love MEN and aren't interested in dressing in women's clothes or having sex with men dressed in women's clothes. These things do not define gay and crossdressing isn't a part of homosexuality. Thus, many gay bars have cut out drag night because they don't want to be associated with it.

I understand. I know that some lesbians dress in men's clothing, but this does not make a lesbian. Similarly, I know some CDs are gay....but, being a CD does not make a gay man.

However, these are the stereotypes that exist for BOTH SEXES.

Also, I have been further labeled since I am bi and do not dress masculine...I'm a "lipstick dyke." Can't I just be a homo and everyone shut up with how I dress? What does my attire have to do with who I f*ck? NOTHING!

So, if you think CDs are the only ones discriminated with how they dress, you are mistaken.

It's definitely not OK for women to go grab pants and shirts out of the men's department. They are called bull dykes and assumed lesbian even though they aren't face deep in anyone's thighs.

Still, that is what is assumed.

Here is what Urban Dictionary says:
bull-dike
An extremely masculine woman who could be mistaken for a man from a distance.
DAMN! I thought that bull-dike was a man!

Notice how there is nothing about who this person is f*cking in this sentence? Because the woman was wearing men's clothing and could be mistaken for man, she must be a huge lesbian. Because, obviously, all lesbians dress like this. :rolleyes:

[Launa]

There are a lot of good answers and opinions on this thread. All I can say is I went to Costco and Walmart yesterday and I saw a several women with unisex or mens sweatshirts and very manly haircuts on them. I'm sure they are not crossdressers but if they were crossdresing in male clothes and the world could tell.... I don't think anybody would giggle, snicker, say anything or even look once at them!

[Melissa Jill]

Mellisa...Where have you gone out as a man in feminine clothing? I just gotta know.

England. (20charrule)