Some thoughts about thoughtlessness

[Frédérique]

Ignorance is bliss, but to IGNORE is sublime – you might want to embroider that phrase and hang it on the wall where you can see it. Take a good look at it...

I have mixed feelings about discussion forums. This site is the only one where I submit things I’ve written – I do all my writing off-site, away from the little boxes that are provided, and I write to relax. I like the atmosphere here, at least compared to other sites, and the fact that I’m still here is a testament to this “ambience” I refer to. I was on another crossdressing site some time ago, and, after my experiences there, I was a little bit reluctant to plunge into this site with any degree of enthusiasm. Luckily, my fears were largely unfounded, and I eventually felt somewhat “at home” amongst my peers once the initial reluctance wore off...

Why even participate in a discussion forum about crossdressing? I mean, what is there to gain? If you’re like me, it’s wonderful to finally have a place where you can express yourself, in words, about your feelings in regards to crossdressing. Out in the real world, there is virtually nobody to talk to, no sympathy, no compassion, and no support forthcoming. Here, on the other hand, you are free to write down your long-suppressed thoughts on the subject of wearing the “wrong” clothes, and darned if you don’t find others who feel the same way. This is revelatory on a scale that is difficult to describe, especially if you are shy, confused, or isolated in some way. It is highly meaningful to read “You are not alone...” among the responses to one's heartfelt posts...

Seeing as how we MtF crossdressers get the short shrift from nearly everyone close-by, and all corners of life, simply because of our insistence to be different and truly alive, it follows that a thoughtful, positive comment now and then can go a long way. Almost like clockwork I will receive some form of written reinforcement for my own convictions on this site, even though I may literally have my hand on the doorknob in advance of leaving the premises. The fact that I’m still here (and that may irk some people) is that I have been touched in some way by countless individuals who took the time to write a little something – such epithets warm my heart, and I seek to do the same to others who are struggling for a handhold...

In this context, it bothers me when someone goes to a lot of trouble to post a thoughtless comment, no doubt trying to knock back someone’s joy about crossdressing, or “cut them down to size.” Some people seem to have a stormy relationship with their CD’ing, but do they have to take it out on those members who actually enjoy dressing-up? I just don’t get it – on a website that promises “support” for transgendered individuals and their families, with the word (or term) CROSSDRESSER prominently displayed for all to see, why on Earth would someone use the opportunity to be un-supportive in such a setting? Luckily, thoughtlessness is not rampant on this site, but it seems like the same people, day in and day out, are engaged in destroying the happiness of others. For those who are happy being CD/TV/TG, or what have you, stepping out of this heightened state that crossdressing provides to answer any naysayers is tantamount to neutralization...

I should know – I’ve been there, and it’s painful. I think it’s safe to say that most of us come here afflicted with a confused mental state, or we have somehow found the courage and resolve to get past it and enjoy crossdressing to a certain degree. Like many here, I am comfortable doing what I do, and I like to write about this joyful state, even though it all came at a cost. As such, I would never dream of hurting someone who is confused or afraid, nor would I trounce on someone’s dreams and desires simply because they declared them in a post. Better to hold out a hand, albeit an invisible one made up of carefully-chosen words, and try, if I can, to comfort the individual – isn’t this what support is all about? Language is the key, and I tend to lay it on with a trowel – you have to realize that when I began to crossdress there was NO information on the subject, except the usual stuff couched in terms of addiction, affliction, or perversion. How refreshing it is to be here, away from the fog of doubt and the clouds of fear, and actually step out into a form of sunshine at last. That being said, laying down a premise is much like re-sodding a large lawn – it takes a lot of material, i.e. paragraphs, and not everyone is going to like the result...

So, there’s plenty to talk about, or in this case, write about. I’ve met many amazing people on this site, and a lot of words have flowed under the bridge we use to “cross over” to the other side. I like to crossdress, in case that’s not already crystal clear, and I write about it from that positive angle. In doing so I anger those who cannot appreciate happiness, or beauty, or anything positive that may flourish under the Sun. I sometimes field a thoughtless comment, usually based on a sentence taken out of context, or some minor point of clarification. No biggie, but when someone takes umbrage with the entire tone, content, and technique of a piece I’ve written, I cannot help but wonder where the person is coming from, or why they bother – I mean, you can safely ignore my post, or my OP, and scamper over to something more appealing to your sensibilities. I’m reminded of something my father once said: “That’s a beautiful tree – get the chain saw and let’s cut the God-damned thing down!” Can’t crossdressing be beautiful to some people?

I submit that it CAN, but you need to ignore any negativity as much as possible to keep your precious (and sometimes impossible) dreams alive. Unless I feel I can make a positive statement out of someone else’s negativity, I ignore on principle any thoughtless comment that is designed to cut off a sensitive MtF crossdresser’s legs at the hemline. Shame on ANYONE who derides another crossdresser’s “take” on things – you can appreciate beauty, and you can appreciate all that is ugly, or you can be somewhere in the middle, but you need to be conscious of the feelings of others at all times. I don’t want to have to step back into a masculine persona to reprove someone (who should know better) about what acceptable behavior IS. I would much rather extol the virtues of femininity, as they apply to MtF crossdressing, and suffer the slings and arrows of the few thoughtless individuals who prowl these halls looking for victims. If you don’t wish to hear me sing my feminine praises, you can ignore everything I write. That would make me very happy...

If you feel that something I’ve written is thoughtless, I need to tell you that everything I submit has been thoroughly thought-out beforehand, sometimes too much so. As far as I’m concerned, thoughtlessness is NOT an option on a site like this – you need to be conscious of the fact that we all approach (or deal with) crossdressing differently. We all need support, too, and I’m here to offer what I can, but if you’re thoughtless to anyone, including me, I will be ignoring you – there’s no place for thoughtlessness, or hurtfulness, here. In this instance, ignorance really is bliss...

Are you thoughtful or thoughtless? More importantly, do you care about others? :straightface:

PS – Please don’t bother complaining about my choice of font or font size, OK? I get it. Asking me to change is like asking me to wear male underpants rather than women’s panties – NO CAN DO! Be thoughtful and accepting of my little style eccentricities – I must do these things, or I will surely drown in the sea of conformity...
:doh:

PPS – This post is dedicated to Anne2345, a very thoughtful girl indeed...

[cassandra54]

you are so right. it takes a lot of courage for one to realize who they are and even more to act up that. even when we think we have support in the real world, we may not and it is true, yes so very true. we need to show support to all of our sisters and share the wealth of optimism that some of us have. some of us have no problem going to a store and buying a pair of shoes or a bra whether or not it be en femme or en drab, but some people it takes EVERYTHING they have. some of us may not be passable, but we need to show our compassion for everyone. there are some girls on here that are absolutely gorgeous and some like me, not so much, but we should and must show our encouragement to everyone.
hang in there girls, it gets better

[TGMarla]

Yup. Anne took a whole lot of flack for boldly announcing that she is a closeted crossdresser. And more power to her for declaring it. It's likely that for every "out and about" type, there are twenty more who don't bother, or are unable to venture forth for some risky gender adventure. Yet in her, like in yourself, we find a beautiful, feminine soul who only wants to reach out and spread the beauty of the feminine world she finds when she enjoys her femme moments.

In return we often see spiteful, ascerbic diatribes about what a coward such closet cases are, instead of the steadfast support that she or anyone like her desires in response to her thoughtful prose. It warmed my soul to see the positive response she received for her recent picture post, and the further outpouring of support for her in the face of the withering attacks she (and others) endured simply for stating a preference to remain in her home when she crossdresses.

Everyone here deserves support, for on some level or another, we are all kindred souls.

And geez, Freddy.....can't you change that font of yours?

(Kidding...kidding....I actually like it!!!)

[kimdl93]

I looked a while back in in a relatively short time here, I have over 3597 posts...5.9 per day. Makes me think I need to use my time better.
Few of my posts were originals. Obviously,most have been responses. And to paraphrase one of the three disclaimers says on the "What Do You Know" quiz, "While the original posts have been carefully research, the answers have not". So it is with my posts. Some times I know I have come accross as snarky, judgemental, argumentative...or just plain full of S**t. I am not alone in that respect.

And I can well imagine that more thoughtful poster might take offense at flippant or thoughtlessly worded responses. All I can say I'm sorry when I am too lazy to read carefully and as a result draw the wrong inference from a post. I'm sorry when I'm not interested enough to respond thoughtfully....in that case I should save everyone time and not respond at all. And I'm sorry if my occassionally well intended comments have deflated, dimininshed or discouraged. Its not my intent.

But let me finish by saying something that I've never said: my feelings were really hurt when I posted my first picture and someone commented that I looked like their Auntie Em. (Its probably true, but we all must have our illusions!)

[Gaby2]

Oh I really care about you, Freddy.
I've been off-forum for ages (seemingly) but I've always had you (and everybody!) in the front of the back of my mind!
In particular, I've been missing your inimitable style.
Way to go... girl!
:rose2:Gaby

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

Wow, Frederique you sure do promote thought in whatever you write.
As I struggle with my mental and emotional roller coaster ride, at times I may appear to be thoughtless in a reply but when I write my mind can sometimes be fogged out or lit up like fireworks on a clear night. This affects my writing at times and in so doing I may appear insensitive but maybe the sensitivity is masked by the sheer desire to promote my own thought and in so doing I may get confused as to what I am writing.
I think that it maybe best to take some advice from you and put finger to keyboard away from the forum and treat the reply or posting as an assignment.
I am emotionally challenged daily as I go from living as a female at home to working as a male in a neanderthal work place. The emotions oscillate and so to the complexity of my desire to transition and be rid of this male exterior. As I write I find myself at times arguing within as I try and leave the male world behind and adjust back to my feminine state. I guess that during this transition I may appear thoughtless but caring I am.
Innately a very thoughtful person and very caring, unfortunately too caring at times because I feel for many and impossible to share as the written words from the hands of a novice do not express sincerity or care. For those who have the ability to write and express then they are gifted with much and to them I thank because it is with their knowledge and ability to communicate that I feel comforted.
Thank You Frederique

[NathalieX66]

This will be my 1974th post, and I'm definitelly entitled to one or two thoughtless posts.

This side of me comes from my mom's side, which is more abrasive and blunt than my dad's side could handle.
I think my first nasty post was something to the effect that I didn't think women's clothes looked good on a guy, and it was like "jamming a square peg into a round hole", and needless to say, that statement got quite a bit of backlash on this forum.
That was then.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Ignorance is bliss, but to IGNORE is sublime – you might want to embroider that phrase and hang it on the wall where you can see it. Take a good look at it...

I once thought as you did...but I was wrong....Hi, it's me. I'm liking this post of yours, it's direct and honest.


This site is the only one where I submit things I’ve written – I do all my writing off-site, away from the little boxes that are provided,

Ah you don't use those lil boxes? Didn't know that.


and I write to relax.

That's what my Second Life blog is for.


I was on another crossdressing site some time ago, and, after my experiences there, I was a little bit reluctant to plunge into this site with any degree of enthusiasm.

Which one was it?



Out in the real world, there is virtually nobody to talk to, no sympathy, no compassion, and no support forthcoming.

Sure there is! There's support groups, GLBT venues, supportive friends and family. Even in Kansas.


It is highly meaningful to read “You are not alone...” among the responses to one's heartfelt posts...

Yes it is.


In this context, it bothers me when someone goes to a lot of trouble to post a thoughtless comment, no doubt trying to knock back someone’s joy about crossdressing, or “cut them down to size.”

Personally my intent is never that.


but it seems like the same people, day in and day out, are engaged in destroying the happiness of others.

Look...what I'm trying to do is to help people so they don't make the same mistakes I did years ago or others did 20 years ago or even others did 30 years ago.



For those who are happy being CD/TV/TG, or what have you, stepping out of this heightened state that crossdressing provides to answer any naysayers is tantamount to neutralization...

I case you hadn't realized, I wear some women's clothing every day.


Better to hold out a hand, albeit an invisible one made up of carefully-chosen words, and try, if I can, to comfort the individual – isn’t this what support is all about?

But sometimes what people don't need is pretty words and comfort, but honest forthright language to confront them to directly deal with things.


you have to realize that when I began to crossdress there was NO information on the subject, except the usual stuff couched in terms of addiction, affliction, or perversion.

May I ask how old you are, because I'm 44 and I found plenty of stuff that didn't mention addiction, affliction or perversion though older materials did, but I knew to discount those. What I sa mostly said. "There's men that wear women's clothing, most are heterosexual, it makes them feel better, others think it is strange" There were plenty of talk shows too, like Phil Donahue.


In doing so I anger those who cannot appreciate happiness, or beauty, or anything positive that may flourish under the Sun.

That's not the reason...the real reason is that all that flowery language masks the issues and lets you avoid the hard discussions and hard decisions. It's a coping mechanism, I know...did it myself upon a time.


but when someone takes umbrage with the entire tone, content, and technique of a piece I’ve written, I cannot help but wonder where the person is coming from, or why they bother –

They bother for the same reason you write it in the first place.


Can’t crossdressing be beautiful to some people?

yes it can, but focusing on ONLY that to the exclusion of all the other issues related to it is futile.


Shame on ANYONE who derides another crossdresser’s “take” on things – you can appreciate beauty, and you can appreciate all that is ugly, or you can be somewhere in the middle, but you need to be conscious of the feelings of others at all times. I don’t want to have to step back into a masculine persona to reprove someone (who should know better) about what acceptable behavior IS.

You're trying too hard again. You're forcing the femininity. Besides, you don't have to be masculine to reprove someone...women do it all the time...I don't know where you got such a an old-fashioned misogynist idea. Women and Men aren't THAT different, there are some differences yes, but they are more alike than not.


I would much rather extol the virtues of femininity, as they apply to MtF crossdressing, and suffer the slings and arrows of the few thoughtless individuals who prowl these halls looking for victims. If you don’t wish to hear me sing my feminine praises, you can ignore everything I write. That would make me very happy...

But is it real or is it a put upon artificialized femininity rooted in 1950's stereotypes.


If you feel that something I’ve written is thoughtless, I need to tell you that everything I submit has been thoroughly thought-out beforehand, sometimes too much so.

A thought out comment can be thoughtless.


but if you’re thoughtless to anyone, including me, I will be ignoring you – there’s no place for thoughtlessness, or hurtfulness, here. In this instance, ignorance really is bliss...

Ignorance is NOT bliss. it's counter productive and leads to making bad decisions based on outdated or flawed knowledge.


care[/I] about others? :straightface:

I do, even you. I worry that your prose hides the fact that you're not honestly dealing with this thing of ours. I care about TGMarla (HI!), even when I disagree with her. Would like to see her in some modern clothes sometime...just for fun, but I don't want her to give up those flowy dresses.


PS – Please don’t bother complaining about my choice of font or font size, OK? I get it. Asking me to change is like asking me to wear male underpants rather than women’s panties – NO CAN DO! Be thoughtful and accepting of my little style eccentricities – I must do these things, or I will surely drown in the sea of conformity...

But in doing so you are being thoughtless to those who have vision problems. I have cataracts. I haven't mentioned this before, because I am a mostly private person, my medical issues are a mostly private matter. My insurance will require a LARGE copay for each eye...I don't have that kind of money... (I work with persons with disabilities for a living). So your typeface and size are hard on my eyes. I did something similar myself, making my text pretty, many years ago, until someone lectured me on the issues people can have with vision or their font/computer/system setup in rendering images/pretty fonts and whatnot.


Yup. Anne took a whole lot of flack for boldly announcing that she is a closeted crossdresser.

No, that is not true. She didn't get flack for announcing she was closeted, being closeted is fine, as long as you understand the drawbacks of it. And there ARE drawbacks as we both most certainly know.

She actuallygot flack for saying how much she loved the closet and would never leave it. Two different things, two different issues. The second was a lie, and we all knew it.

You yourself have admitted that in a perfect world, if you were young, things might be different. Which means that you don't love your closet, you know it has drawbacks...but it is the reality of your current situation that you deal with in your own way.


It's likely that for every "out and about" type, there are twenty more who don't bother, or are unable to venture forth for some risky gender adventure.

Risky? That's a strange word coming from a GLBT person. There are plenty of transfolk who go out in public and don't have any issues at all. I know you read Kim Huddles, Kathi Lake's, and Sara Jessica's adventures...that's the norm these days, Marla.


In return we often see spiteful, ascerbic diatribes about what a coward such closet cases are,

Are closeted folks fearful, yes. is some of the fear unreasonable, yes. Are they cowards...no. Afraid...but cowardice is a strong word..too strong.


and the further outpouring of support for her in the face of the withering attacks she (and others) endured simply for stating a preference to remain in her home when she crossdresses.

And now she says she feels the desire to take it further...just like we said she would.

Veronica

[TGMarla]

Veronica, dear...my sister by another mister.......I recommend a shampoo that takes care of split ends....because you're splitting hairs! :D

[Frédérique]

And I can well imagine that more thoughtful poster might take offense at flippant or thoughtlessly worded responses. All I can say I'm sorry when I am too lazy to read carefully and as a result draw the wrong inference from a post. I'm sorry when I'm not interested enough to respond thoughtfully....in that case I should save everyone time and not respond at all. And I'm sorry if my occassionally well intended comments have deflated, dimininshed or discouraged. Its not my intent.

You should read my OP in the context that spawned it, namely the extremely thoughtless posts that appeared over in an adjacent thread yesterday. I don’t see why people bother to do such things, but there it is, again, and we all suffer from it. I hate the idea of a newbie reading those and being forced back from whence he or she came, after an initial euphoria propelled them to this site for some genuine answers about crossdressing. Everyone, including me, may be guilty of thoughtless posting, but that is to be expected (as you have outlined). It takes effort to write in a supportive manner, but it takes just as much effort (I assume) to write in a non-supportive manner. I can fly off the handle on occasion and post contrary to the intent of another member, but I try to glean something positive from that eventuality and not hurt someone’s feelings. I know one thing - I don’t go out of my way to strangle a fellow CD’ers cherished relationship to crossdressing, even if that person’s “take” on crossdressing differs from mine. Most of the time, I don’t respond at all – I may write something, but if I don’t like how it “reads,” I don’t submit it...
:straightface:


As I struggle with my mental and emotional roller coaster ride, at times I may appear to be thoughtless in a reply but when I write my mind can sometimes be fogged out or lit up like fireworks on a clear night. This affects my writing at times and in so doing I may appear insensitive but maybe the sensitivity is masked by the sheer desire to promote my own thought and in so doing I may get confused as to what I am writing.

I think we’re all promoting our own thoughts on the subject of crossdressing, but I do so to gain some new insight or knowledge about it. Since I’m an artist, I’m engaged in an activity that involves putting one’s “thoughts” in front of people on a regular basis. People will either respond to my work, or walk by and find something else to look at. Naturally, there are people who will loudly exclaim their displeasure upon seeing your well-reasoned efforts, and this qualifies as a thoughtless, or insensitive, reaction. Better to avoid the “gallery” entirely, rather than spoil a nice exhibition by making a scene, wouldn’t you say?

Some days I like to gather about five or six posts by others and craft a few responses, but I really like to write something lengthy (an OP) and see if I can twist a few ideas together. I don’t know why I write these things, and some wish I wouldn’t bother, but you can see it as a thoughtful exercise aimed at making contact with other crossdressers. We are a disparate lot, to be sure, but by and large we have certain things in common worth discussing. I can’t imagine “dumping” on someone in a thoughtless and tiresome manner, all to make some tedious point about one’s superior CD “career.” Some people just want to meet others like them, and exchange a few thoughtful thoughts regarding this non-understandable “thing” we do – why be inconsiderate when we can be considerate? I really believe that the clothes we choose to wear affect how we “come across” to others, but, to some, that idea just doesn’t make sense at all...

I hope this post makes sense - it's getting late, and Freddy needs to go to bed...:sleep:

[Stacey Summer]

Frederique you write so beautifully. If I had your talent for the written word I would be writing books for a living instead of working for a supermarket chain. Have you thought about becoming a professional writer? When I write something that long I tend to end up rambling, whereas your...essays flow smoothly from one point to the next. I love reading your work!

Stacey.
x

[Cynthia Anne]

As I have said many times before THANK YOU Frederique! You inspire me with your wisdom and writing! Anne a true friend of mine is very blessed to have a friend such as you! Hugs!:hugs::love:

[Debglam]

Fredy,

All I have to say is that I greatly appreciate your posts.

Debby

[Momarie]

I appreciate Veronica's practical approach and gut-level honesty.

Frédérique offers Tea & Sympathy with a practiced pretty prose.

There's value to both especially on a forum with such diverse needs. :rose:

[Frédérique]

I appreciate Veronica's practical approach and gut-level honesty. Frédérique offers Tea & Sympathy with a practiced pretty prose. There's value to both especially on a forum with such diverse needs.

I’d like to see some practical, sympathetic honesty for a change. We can safely skip the “tea” and the “guts” to get a point across. BTW, I don’t “practice” my prose – it just comes out that way, because I am operating from a position of acceptance and happiness. Not to do so would be a form of self-betrayal. Everyone’s writing emanates from their own experiences, along with their own relationship to crossdressing, and every “position” is equally valid. However, I’d just like to see some consideration for the other person on the opposite end of a discussion, and not disregard someone’s contribution if it fails to validate one’s own agenda. Since we all have “diverse needs,” it follows that any discourse about crossdressing should be equally diverse and thoughtful in the extreme, taking into consideration that YOUR crossdressing and MY crossdressing may not be the same thing, or cup of tea…
:thinking:

[Sara Jessica]

I appreciate Veronica's practical approach and gut-level honesty.

Frédérique offers Tea & Sympathy with a practiced pretty prose.

There's value to both especially on a forum with such diverse needs. :rose:

Thank you.


...Everyone’s writing emanates from their own experiences, along with their own relationship to crossdressing, and every “position” is equally valid. However, I’d just like to see some consideration for the other person on the opposite end of a discussion, and not disregard someone’s contribution if it fails to validate one’s own agenda. Since we all have “diverse needs,” it follows that any discourse about crossdressing should be equally diverse and thoughtful in the extreme, taking into consideration that YOUR crossdressing and MY crossdressing may not be the same thing, or cup of tea…
:thinking:


Since ____’s OP was placed in THIS section, and aimed primarily at MtF crossdressers who feel a certain way about things, I think it’s very unfair for a disagreeable person to come along and post contrary to the original spirit of the piece. It just seems mean to me, and I’ve seen this time and time again, usually emanating from the same "superior" people. I wouldn’t expect certain individuals on this site to appreciate something a MtF crossdresser has expressed in words, but why ACT upon that and cause division via derision? I don’t get it, and I don’t feel you, Sara, should be defending these malfeasants just because you feel it may be good for ____ in the long run. This incident lies at the heart of why crossdressers are misunderstood by nearly everyone, even those who would profess support across the board, yet do the exact opposite in practice…

I'm curious Freddy as to how you would reconcile these two statements.

[Sophie86]

I'm curious Freddy as to how you would reconcile these two statements.

I can't speak for Frédérique, but for myself, I would say that it's the difference between substance and tone of voice. Say what you think, but say it nicely.

[Frédérique]

I'm curious Freddy as to how you would reconcile these two statements.

Simple. You and I have different ideas about what “thoughtless” means... :doh:

Honestly, Sara, if I write a long explanation to appease your request, I think there’s a very good likelihood that this thread will be closed, much like the one that spawned it. It’s obvious to me that the vast majority of MtF crossdressers get no respect around here, even in their own allotted area, so pardon me if I have to speak up in someone else’s defense now and then. Nobody else will, that’s for sure. Excuse me, but you’re stepping on my beautiful shoe…

Look at how much negativity is spawned by one or two thoughtless individuals trying to “help,” or are they merely seeking to express their lack of compassion for MtF crossdressers? I hate to bring this topic up, but I’ve bumped into it, or been buffeted by it, for the last two years on this site. I am not at all diverse in my appreciation of crossdressing, but neither are those who dissect well-reasoned prose as some form of misanthropic hobby. Unfortunately, there is no meeting point, or no accord to be reached, because the bullies have made their stubbornness into an art form. I may be non-confrontational, but this “attitude” tests my patience…

If you want a MtF section where thoughtless individuals pick apart everything someone says (much like the activity you are now engaged in, if the quotations you “plucked” are any indication), then you will surely get it. I, on the other hand, would like to return to the spirit realm and avoid these purveyors of gut-level honesty if at all possible. Nothing comes of it, because you and I, and that “other” person and I, are so dissimilar. I think YOU know what I’m talking about, but you’re on the other side now, looking down on those (like me) who crossdress purely for pleasure…

Frankly, I have better things to do than discuss (ad nauseum) this issue of civility, or human consideration, or basic manners, as it pertains to different types of MtF crossdressers. Tell me – if one of your friends is hurt by someone else’s thoughtless words on this site, how would you respond? Wait, I think you’ve already answered that question. How do YOU reconcile this lack of "support" with your presence on this site? Like I said, I’d like to hear some practical, sympathetic honesty, rather than a self-supportive, one-sided, so-called discussion, where one compartment of the crossdressing world is telling us, the lovers of tactile beauty, that we have it all wrong …

How about a special section for critiques? Some days I don’t know what to make of this site - It’s always “in” vs. “out,” dark vs. light, you’re wrong, I’m right, “I’m a better crossdresser than YOU are,” get real, I like this, I don’t like this, pretty vs. ugly, and so forth. The concept is there, but...well...I don’t know. I’m getting pretty discouraged. Tell me – what’s stopping me from cobbling together a couple of your posts, no doubt lifting them out of context, and then using it to discredit you? You don’t suppose I’m...gasp...thoughtful, and thus respectful, do you?

Don’t take this the wrong way, OK? Reconciliation may be impossible, in more ways than one... :straightface:

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I appreciate Veronica's practical approach and gut-level honesty.

Frédérique offers Tea & Sympathy with a practiced pretty prose.

That's pretty accurate. I have described myself as a practical "applied transperson" not a "theoretical transperson", in the same way that there are theoretical sciences and applied sciences.


so pardon me if I have to speak up in someone else’s defense now and then. Nobody else will, that’s for sure.

Why can't they speak for themselves, they are not helpless children to be infantilized and coddled. We're all adults here, right? Then we need to deal with these things as adults. When you come to the rescue of one of your "followers", you are doing them a disservice by smothering them. You see, while philosophy and spiritual matters have their place, when dealing with "This Thing of Ours of Varying Kinds", most of us need practical day to day suggestions on how to deal with it on a day to day basis.


are they merely seeking to express their lack of compassion for MtF crossdressers?

My compassion is in my practical advice on how to deal with this.


but neither are those who dissect well-reasoned prose as some form of misanthropic hobby.

Apparently you aren't very familiar with the Internet. This dissecting you call it, is simply "how it is done", and yes, women do it to. The practice has been around for years, and predates my time on the internet, probably goes back to ARPAnet.


I may be non-confrontational, but this “attitude” tests my patience…

But you ARE confrontational, in a passive aggressive way. Isn't this very thread a subtle but direct attack on me and a couple of others?


If you want a MtF section where thoughtless individuals pick apart everything someone says (much like the activity you are now engaged in, if the quotations you “plucked” are any indication),

Read my above statement regarding quoting, again.


I, on the other hand, would like to return to the spirit realm and avoid these purveyors of gut-level honesty if at all possible.

Let me say again: While philosophy and spiritual matters have their place, when dealing with "This Thing of Ours of Varying Kinds", most of us need practical day to day suggestions on how to deal with it on a day to day basis.


Nothing comes of it, because you and I, and that “other” person and I, are so dissimilar.

You could do me the courtesy of using my name, rather than being all passive aggressive at me. And we are not that dissimilar, as I said...as you are now, I was 12 years ago.


I think YOU know what I’m talking about, but you’re on the other side now, looking down on those (like me) who crossdress purely for pleasure…

What is this "other" side. If you mean that Sara and I are TS's then say so, directly. Don't hem and haw and waste time beating around the bush. Just use the words for it. And don't you think that Sara and I find our en femme excursions pleasurable? You know us not at all, if you think that. They most certainly were:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?130298-Another-Thursday-of-mostly-window-shopping

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?128527-Window-shopping-day.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?123264-What-A-VeronicaMoonlit-shopping-post-For-reals

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?126029-My-Anti-Valentines-Day-Salon-Day-for-Kathi-Lake




Tell me – if one of your friends is hurt by someone else’s thoughtless words on this site, how would you respond?

That's easy, if I thought someone had been given some seriously bad thoughtless advice that contained lots of pretty words, but no real advice on how to deal with things...like I thought you gave Anne, I would respond, which I did. Because I worry about folks like Anne. And I don't want her and people like her to go through what I did in the past, so I'm all about prevention.

For example, I always say to tell early before one gets married, that way it prevents the problems that often occur if the spouse finds out after 20 years of marriage, and then they come here and say "my wife found my stash what do I do" when we told them to tell. Or when after they are found out, they basically hand over the gatekeeping control to the spouse and we tell them that's a bad thing because they'll resent her control and acquiesce to rules they don't really want to, and then act out later against those rules....and then they come here and say they did that very thing that we told them not to do. Wouldn't you get frustrated?


where one compartment of the crossdressing world is telling us, the lovers of tactile beauty, that we have it all wrong …

There's nothing wrong with loving tactile beauty, but saying "isn't tactile beauty a wonderful thing" isn't practical day to day advice on how to deal with the issues transfolk have.


Tell me – what’s stopping me from cobbling together a couple of your posts, no doubt lifting them out of context, and then using it to discredit you? You don’t suppose I’m...gasp...thoughtful, and thus respectful, do you?

Nothing. But there's nothing stopping you from referring to me as a meanie, misanthrope, masculine bully every chance you get.

Veronica.

[Sara Jessica]

What was said...

Wow, where did THAT come from???

Ignoring is one thing, suggesting one doesn't belong is another. But to be so vicious, I really don't have to say another word when one's true colors are so plain to see.

---------------------

Freddy, I asked a simple question and you gave me a dissertation so I will briefly explain my perception.

In "that other thread" you essentially preached segregation. Yet when reacting to a message of inclusion and the validity of different points of view, you fell over yourself professing your agreement.

I found it to be hypocritical.

And I didn't have to go looking for an old post to place it out of context, you gave me some really low hanging fruit. Remember, that was the thread you pretty much segregated me out of. Talk about thoughtless.

[Sophie86]

In "that other thread" you essentially preached segregation.

Segregation is already practiced on the forum. AFAIK, there's no "safe haven" exclusively for people who identify as CD.

[Gaby2]

Well, I hope I don't offend anybody, if I say this is a very entertaining discussion.

I wish I had had a Veronica around some twenty years ago...:sad:
I disagree with the Anne-lie assertation, of course.
But I can't see how Veronica's compassionate opinions can be regarded as "bullying", Scarlet.
Indeed, Veronica's reactions help me to appreciate Freddy's OP all the more.

Your writing is confrontational, Freddy, and your posts tend to hit me like torpedoes...
I can see them coming at me under the water...
and I know that if I read on they'll certainly hit home and I've got a lot of thinking to do just to follow the train(s) of thought.
But I like that.

And come off it, Sara... anything less than a dissertation would almost be an insult coming from Freddy!:battingeyelashes:

:hugs:Gaby:)

[Anne2345]

Veronica, you have stated in response to Freddy that she does not know you, and therefore has no basis upon which to make certain conclusions. I have said the same to you in the past, but to absolutely no avail. You discarded my response in the same manner you suggest Freddy is discarding yours. I am not looking to start or continue a fight, I am just saying there may be something going on here with all of this, if you but take the time for a little self introspection, perhaps a light will click on . . . .


. We're all adults here, right? Then we need to deal with these things as adults. When you come to the rescue of one of your "followers", you are doing them a disservice by smothering them.

Yes, presumably, we are all adults here. And I am not a follower of Freddy. I do not belong to The Cult of Freddy. I am unaware that such a cult even exists, if in fact, it does. I do, however, consider Freddy a dear friend whom I love, value, and respect a great deal. But she is not coming to my "rescue." Rather, she is expressing her belief and opinion based upon the observations she has made within the forum, and simply asking that we remain civil in our discourse, and courteous to one another.

To your other points, I acknowledged in the "other" thread that you did make some legitimate points. I have given such points much thought since then, and I shall continue to do so, along with the advice and support other members have provided me, as well. I do appreciate you taking the time to add your two cents worth. But might I suggest that your opinion may carry more weight, credibility, and appreciation if you lighten up on your approach and methodology, and backed off of being so overbearing and self-righteous?

And this is now the second thread that you have accused me of lying. I would very much appreciate it if in the future you refrain from using such strong, negative, and hurtful terminology about me. There is a world of difference between simply not knowing something, having yet discovered something, and lying. That difference being one of intent to deceive. I have never intentionally deceived anyone on this forum, myself included.

As for the rest of this thread - hasn't all of this gone far enough already?

This is becoming ridiculous, and I am really beginning to regret having posted anything about how I feel in the first place, if this is how it is going to go. This is not the first time my posts and thoughts have become the fodder for a fight by others, and that makes me sad. It also causes me to think twice about being so open with my thoughts, feelings, and emotions around here . . . .

As for the "other" thread being closed, Nigella left a message proclaiming "Closed with the agreement of the OP." The funny thing is that Nigella inadequately worded this message. Although she did in fact close the thread with my agreement, it would be more accurate to state that she closed it at my request. The thread had gotten completely out of control, there was too much fighting, and I simply couldn't take it anymore . . . .

So please, let's just end it, move on, and be nice! :)

[Kathi Lake]

Seconded and so moved!

Let's stop fighting and just get along, shall we?

:)

Kathi

[sara.s]

No offense, your font is good.. but just not reader friendly.

[Sophie86]

I had to shrink this picture in order to upload it, but it should give everyone an idea of how Freddy's font looks on my computer compared to the standard font. As you can see, it's actually much larger. I don't know why that is, but it always confuses me when people complain about her font, because I can read it better than anyone else's.

[TGMarla]

Sorry, I'll agree, but not before I say this: Veronica, you come off with your "I was like you are 12 years ago" bit as though your is the only path to truth and enlightenment in the transgender world. You'd suggest that any other way than yours is not dealing "with these things like adults".

I remember when you joined this forum, only a few months after I did, and you were very confused and alone in your world of small-town central Illinois, where the rednecks play, and the crossdressers cower in dimly lit rooms with only a mirror for a friend, the curtains drawn, and the doors locked. I'm not suggesting you did this, of course. But I remember how you felt locked in that small town, not knowing where your path was leading.

Some people's paths lead to transition. Others lead only to self-acceptance, and a desire to NOT let ....what do you call it...."This Thing of Ours of Varying Kinds"....geez, that's getting old fast......gain too much dominance over us, lest we find ourselves losing ourselves to a path of utter wreckage and lost lives. Some of us have struck a comfortable plateau, where we have learned to enjoy our femme hours without a need to stretch it out to the ruin of our relationships and our marriages. Some of us have no need to underdress and go to work, smiling to ourselves at our little secret that no one knows. Some of us have no need to head out to the mall and hit the Mac counter. And no, not doing so does not mean that they secretly want to, just to experience the rush of really "being" a woman.

That's all a load of crap for some of us. For others, who post here how they greatly enjoy such outings, I'm very happy that they went and had a good time. On the occasions that I have gone out, I too have greatly enjoyed myself. But I have NEVER held it over people, and suggested that their only true path leads to outings en femme, and that if they opt to not do this, they are only lying to themselves about what their truth really is.

Your "advice" to others is only from a very narrow point of view, from a person who found herself to actually be transexual after years of self-flogging and painful introspection. Not everyone comes to that same conclusion, and therefore your advice may well be destructive to them in their own situations. So I'd suggest that you either tone it down some, and stop the nit-picky and painstaking dissection of everyone's posts that you may disagree with, or just put a lid on it altogether.

Now....can't we all just be friends again?

[sara.s]

I had to shrink this picture in order to upload it, but it should give everyone an idea of how Freddy's font looks on my computer compared to the standard font. As you can see, it's actually much larger. I don't know why that is, but it always confuses me when people complain about her font, because I can read it better than anyone else's.
you seem to use the same OS (or browser may be) as the OP. from your pic it appears OP's font is bigger than other's.. Take a look in this pic from my system. OP's font is smaller, bolder and distance between fonts is very little, making it hard to read.

166367

[Kaitlyn Michele]

It's amazing the hypocrisy of the op. In fact, I am in awe of the audacity and skill of it.

[Torrey]

To paraphrase the reluctant Rodney King...

The time has come for us all to get along.

Or, as my kindergarten teacher said, "Play nice, or get of of the sandbox."

[Frédérique]

I do not belong to The Cult of Freddy.

I must say that’s the FUNNIEST thing I’ve read in a long time!!! :heehee:

Thanks very much for all of the supportive posts and messages. I think I’ve made my point… :thumbsup:

[Sara Jessica]

Segregation is already practiced on the forum. AFAIK, there's no "safe haven" exclusively for people who identify as CD.

Actually, you are absolutely right. And I'm not so sure there should be one.

Your comment made me think of something. Is there anything more benign on the TG spectrum than crossdressing? Roll with this premise for a minute. You can start at one end with those individuals who are admittedly into the fetish thing, perhaps one item of women's clothing floats their boat. Do they need their own area? I don't think so. They kind of do and those of us who are not into that can simply ignore those places. Moving along, the issues become a bit more pronounced. I think the most prevalent one on the CD'ers side of things is SO disclosure. Now the SO's definitely need their own segregated space, I totally get that. But if the CD'er were to have one, there would be a lot of real life advice that never would be heard on such important issues. Moving along, there can be matters of self-acceptance and again I believe the entire gender spectrum has something to offer. Making that fateful decision to buy your own stuff in person or going out? Ditto.

As we look at other segregated spaces, those who identify as transmasculine need their own space to deal with issues which frankly, most MTF CD'ers cannot help so much with. They have an open forum which is a fascinating place to visit where all are welcome but they also have thir own segregated space. The same holds true for those who are MTF TS.

So I guess my point is two-fold. I'm not so much seeing where MTF CD'ers need a "safe haven". To keep you safe from who, Veronica? Me??? Speaking for myself (and it feels kind of odd to be justifying my participation but after being told I was not welcome, I guess it's part of the point I'm making), I bring to the table very real experiences from a "been there, done that" perspective. I would think that anyone who is newer to many experiences in CD land MIGHT benefit from my opinion. And if one doesn't like what I say, or how I say it, then simply pay no heed and move on. It's really that simple and is no different in that I often obtain advice by reading or actively seeking counsel in the TS section, an area of this forum which contains a treasure trove of information.

Bringing it full circle, my choice of words in using "segregation" was clearly a mistake. A better description is that I was told (and I'll take the "me" out of it) that all opinions are not welcome. This thread about thoughtlessness was a conscious effort to renew focus on another disagreement where not only is the messenger being killed but the message as well. That other thread may have started off being about butterflies and flowers but scratching beneath the written word there were some serious issues to be seen. A few of us chose to deal with those issues head-on while others simply wallowed in the pretty words without understanding the meaning of the words which is really no surprise as the same mistake was made by some when reading the advice in our replies.

Kill the messenger, attack the delivery, but the message remains the same as clear as can be for anyone who chooses to read it.

[Sophie86]

Kill the messenger, attack the delivery, but the message remains the same as clear as can be for anyone who chooses to read it.

The problem was with the delivery, and with the hubris behind the delivery. Consider this analogy: A person is walking a path through the woods, and comes to a place where the path branches out in many direction. She studies the different paths, and chooses the one she thinks will be best for her. Sure enough, it leads her to exactly the place she wants to be. That's all very good, but now, looking back, she sees other people standing at that intersection, and she assumes that they are all on the same journey that she was on, trying to get to the same place. While they are trying to reason things out for themselves, she intervenes and basically says, "Don't be an idiot, this is the right path! You know it is, and only willful self-deception could make you doubt it."

So there is a problem first with thinking that there is only one path through the woods that will lead us to happiness, and then that hubris leads to the second problem of how she offers advice about the best way to proceed. To her the path through the woods looks like a four lane highway, and only an idiot would want to wander off that straight and obvious route onto some game trail through the underbrush that's going to leave her stranded in a ditch somewhere.

(FWIW, I don't have a problem with the way you've expressed yourself, I just think you are being too forgiving of Veronica's tone because you agree with her advice, and share her perspective on the right path.)

As for why there should be a safe haven for CDs, I've seen lots of threads turn into arguments because of GGs and TSs declaring the CD point of view to be out of bounds. The recent male lesbian thread is a good example.

[Sara Jessica]

Sophie, I don't think Veronica ever said her advice, her path if you will, was the only one. No one here should have such hubris (using your choice of words).

And please know that I am not necessarily agreeing with Veronica's message. Whether I do or not is absolutely irrelevant. What I have said is that she makes some good points which have been lost on many. I defend the messenger and her right to express her opinion and offer advice.

As for the male lesbian thread, notice I've stayed out of that one. It doesn't mean there's not something present which shouldn't be discussed. I think others are carrying that torch just fine.

So by a safe haven, do you mean a place where inanity can run rampant without accountability, particularly when it comes to respect for women? I can just picture it now, "I'm more girlie than a GG because..."

[Sophie86]

Sophie, I don't think Veronica ever said her advice, her path if you will, was the only one. No one here should have such hubris (using your choice of words).

That was the implication of her assertion that she knew where Anne was headed before Anne knew herself. It's the notion that there is an inevitability about the progression from CD to TS. I hear it all the time in the joke: "What's the difference between a CD and a TS? Two years." It's very grating to those of us who know who we are and who have reached a point of balance and stability with our crossdressing.


And please know that I am not necessarily agreeing with Veronica's message. Whether I do or not is absolutely irrelevant. What I have said is that she makes some good points which have been lost on many. I defend the messenger and her right to express her opinion and offer advice.

The good points weren't lost on me, nor was the underlying good intention. It was the hamfisted execution that bothered me.


As for the male lesbian thread, notice I've stayed out of that one. It doesn't mean there's not something present which shouldn't be discussed. I think others are carrying that torch just fine.

Yes, well, my torch was doused.


So by a safe haven, do you mean a place where inanity can run rampant without accountability, particularly when it comes to respect for women? I can just picture it now, "I'm more girlie than a GG because..."

Does inanity run rampant on the other safe haven forums, or is it just crossdressers who are inane? Is it just crossdressers who need to be supervised by the members of other groups, or do those other groups sometimes say mean and hurtful things? I once had a TS friend on Facebook who regularly disparaged CDs, even going so far as to repost their pics on her wall so that her friends could laugh at them. She very haughtily said that she had nothing whatsoever in common with crossdressers, and that they were not her sisters. Does that sort of thing happen in the TS forum here? If it does, are those people chastised for their words? I hope not, but how would I know?

[Kathi Lake]

. . . It was the hamfisted execution that bothered me.And that is the crux of the matter. Ladies, please, can we forgive ham-fistedness and please mend these fences? After all, due to cultural and upbringing differences, people's communication styles differ greatly. It shouldn't be about what was said, but what was meant. If my daughter drew me a picture of a beautiful unicorn (as she's been doing lately), and I got after her because it was really not put together well, she colored out of the lines, and didn't capture the true essence of a unicorn, should I be upset? No! I would instead realize that although the way she went about it wasn't the best, she meant to give me a gift. She meant it in love.

Now I've stayed out of this, mostly because I'm torn. I love all of my friends here. I hate to see conflict where there shouldn't be any. I have loved Veronica's sometimes ham-fisted advice to me over the years. Why? Because I realized that she did have my best interests at heart. She has forced me to take a good look at myself - even when I didn't want to. Now, is she right about me? So far, I don't know. As I have told her in the past, "Sometimes B does not necessarily follow A." In other words, it's been two years, and I'm still a crossdresser. What does that tell you about that old saw? :)

I also love, admire, and respect Sara, Freddy, and Anne greatly. I don't want to see my friends fight like this. Can we get past the hurt and the anger and the hubris and "I told ya so's" and just recognize that we're all are different creatures, that there is no right way to do this?

Please? Pretty please with rainbows and sprinkles on top?

:)

Kathi

[Frédérique]

Speaking for myself (and it feels kind of odd to be justifying my participation but after being told I was not welcome, I guess it's part of the point I'm making), I bring to the table very real experiences from a "been there, done that" perspective. I would think that anyone who is newer to many experiences in CD land MIGHT benefit from my opinion. And if one doesn't like what I say, or how I say it, then simply pay no heed and move on.

Well, it’s funny you would say such a thing, because you just as easily could have paid no heed and “moved on” after reading part of this thread, especially the OP, which was initially submitted to address the idea of thoughtlessness. This is NOT about someone being unwelcome here in the MtF section, nor is it about someone’s experience being unimportant or invalid to a discussion about crossdressing. Everybody on this board brings “very real” experiences with them, and I agree that those who are somewhat new to MtF crossdressing can benefit from reading about these experiences. I’m just trying to discuss the need for thoughtful posting, taking into consideration that some people’s idea of crossdressing, or relationship to CD'ing, may be very different from yours, or the next person’s.

With this in mind, I don’t think it’s necessary to be so defensive about things. OK, I get defensive at times, but I’m usually met by a flurry of messages that start with “What’s wrong?” I hate to see a fairly innocent discussion turn into a divisive argument about personal agendas – the lack of thoughtfulness fuels these diatribes, I feel, and the OP was meant to be yet another plea for civility. These things come about because someone has been hurt, and there’s no need to be so “blustery” about one’s opinions. Sara, you have a point. Sophie, you have a point. And yes, Veronica, you have a point, too. I also have a point, but I’m not pointing a finger at anyone…

Living on a farm, I've mended a few fences in my time...:doh:


So by a safe haven, do you mean a place where inanity can run rampant without accountability, particularly when it comes to respect for women? I can just picture it now, "I'm more girlie than a GG because..."

Oh, Sara. Don’t embarrass yourself. Why don’t you start a new thread about this “inanity” you are referring to? I’m surprised you would write such a thing – are you feeling OK? :idontknow:

[Sara Jessica]

Extreme example, Spohia & Freddy, don't read anything into it that isn't there. Unless of course you don't find such comments to be inane so if that's the case, I sincerely apologize.

[Sophie86]

Extreme example, Spohia & Freddy, don't read anything into it that isn't there. Unless of course you don't find such comments to be inane so if that's the case, I sincerely apologize.

Well Sara, at the very least, it would give us a place to post our inane threads without bothering anyone else. Away from the civilizing presence of the GGs and TSs, it may very well turn out to be a bit Lord of the Flies, but with Freddy and Anne's help, maybe we can make it Lady of the Flowers and Butterflies instead? Still inane, of course, but pleasantly femme by our standards.

[MissMarcie]

Hey y‘all, it really doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure this whole deal out.
I haven’t even been on this forum very long and it’s quite obvious to me that there are some very distinct elite little cliques here and a well designated hierarchy of the “femmest of the femmes“. It appears that this has been going on here for quite awhile. I suspect that won't be changing anytime soon. Some will acclimated and accepted by the ruling clique and some will be ostracized and shunned. Think about it...it’s really not that much different from a herd of buffalo.

[Sara Jessica]

Nice one Sophie but again, you read way too much into my example. Inanity such as what I described is met with swift smack-down.

You misunderstand my intentions. I have made a point that I fail to see a need for a safe CD haven. Help me out, you suggested the need for such a safe haven, free from the prying eyes and meddling opinions of those who are TS and natal female. I clearly missed the mark with my extreme example. What might a topic of discussion be?

[ReineD]

I have a headache. :facepalm:

Why all this bickering over writing styles and approaches? People are here for a variety of different reasons. Some come for practical advice on the CDing, others to seek advice about non-supportive spouses, or vent about the difficulties in overcoming fears, some are angry, happy, or frustrated, for others it is a pastime or a relaxation of sorts at the end of a busy day, while for others it is a wish to define it all because it's the only way they can make sense of the CDing for themselves.

Veronica, you have your point-of-view which is perfectly valid, but so does Freddy. I've got to tell you though, parsing a post line-by-line and to the extent you do it (compare your posts to the average responses here) looks argumentative, in the same way that all caps look like shouting, and excessive use of bolded text looks like anger. Do you think you could choose one or two points in the post you want to respond to that encapsulates the OP's message, and just comment on those? It might not look so much as if you are a bully then. I sense that your motives are good, but it's hard to get past the way you deliver your message. Again, look around the forum and do a physical count of the responses to compare those who parse posts line by line to those who don't. ... Or, if parsing is the only way that you can logically formulate your answers, then maybe you could explain this in the beginning of your post so that others won't get the impression you are arguing over everything that is said? I hope you'll take this in the manner I intend, which is to be helpful.

Back to the bickering, Freddy likes to extoll the beauty of the CDing in a poetic sense and I dare say, as a form of release. Veronica likes to be more practical because she is full time. Both approaches are valid. Veronica, if Freddy ever wrote about needing advice on how to come out of the closet or how to deal with mean people out in public, then I think the advice you give would match her request. But, right now it doesn't. Can you allow that not everyone needs to be full time and further, some people prefer to keep the CDing separate from their daily lives and this necessarily involves a degree of fantasy? There's nothing wrong with this, it's a coping mechanism that is just as valid as any other ... (edited to add, as long as at the end of the day, such people know the difference between fantasy and reality, but that's a different thread). :)

It's also helpful to keep in mind that we're all on a journey here and it's perfectly OK to adopt different beliefs than those we've held before. Such is life, and it doesn't mean that we were necessarily wrong when adhering to our past beliefs. We were just meandering slowly along our paths.

:hugs:

[LeaP]

I'd like to return to the OP.

"Are you thoughtful or thoughtless? More importantly, do you care about others? "

I'm thoughtful, sensitively so. Enough that even a thoughtful, careful contrary response can produce a bad reaction, never mind the intentionally hurtful ones occasionally aimed in my direction (in life, obviously not just here, as I've been posting on the forum for all of 6 weeks or so).

And I do care, a lot. I'm introverted by innate character, but a small part of it is hating giving offense, in even the mildest ways. That I do so, sometimes just by existing, is something I feel, often.

I wish it was easy to convey thoughts and intent. It's not. Without resorting to detailed references and explanations regarding personality type differences, stylistic analysis, inter-personal conflicts, personal agendas, and all the other myriad ways that we misunderstand each other, and with which you are doubtless familiar anyway, take it as a given that you will NOT be understood! Let me just say this though: I will take your topic at face value - but only when I can perceive it. I will take your emphases as meaningful to the topic - but only when I see the relation. I will take your examples as clarifications and amplifications - but only when I think you intend them as such. I grant your good intentions as a given, because I have no reason not to.

I reserve the right to respond to narrow points, on topic subsets, or topic variants on occasion - that may be to expand, to solicit or provide clarity (yes), or just to support. My intentions, in turn, are good and also thoughtful. I regard this as the normal course of conversation. I read in the OP (in part) a plea to restrict conversation in ways that I frankly do not understand, literally meaning I didn't understand you. I would actually like to hear what you have to say about the proper scope of responses in a thread like this.

In general, I empathize with your comments about remaining positive. There's nothing particularly giddy and girlish about me. So while there are no butterflies and unicorns here, I do like sunshine and green grass. The latter, of course, co-exist quite happily with the former! Most of the time, I strive for a dry, factual style, however, and though some see past it to heartfelt intent and thoughtful conviction, it's more common that people find it intimidating (or interpret as talking down to them). It's usually employed in the service of conceptual clarity, no more, no less. That alone gives offense sometimes, unfortunately.

I appreciate your comments regarding this forum as having a rare role in the lives of crossdressers. This is the ONLY place I've found the sun ... and it does seem to rain here a bit often. Fortunately, I love logic and concepts (maybe even a a bit too much), so getting wet once in a while is OK. I see some of the suppression and oppression to which you allude (my characterization, not your words). The forum deliberately serves a wide cross section of the TG spectrum, because crossdressers themselves are found across the spectrum. Some I ignore out of lack of interest or application to my life. I wonder about some others. I will say this on behalf of some - isolation can produce desperation. It's almost as if some responses have a manic quality coming from need.

FWIW

Lea

[Sophie86]

I have made a point that I fail to see a need for a safe CD haven.

Okay. If you would like to discuss it further, you can always PM me.

[ReineD]

I have made a point that I fail to see a need for a safe CD haven. Okay. If you would like to discuss it further, you can always PM me.

This is an excellent idea! :)

To everyone who uses the threads to air out personal grievances, you do need to do this via PM too. Occasionally a mod will delete a post and suggest communicating the content via PM, in an attempt to separate the skirmishes (or private matters) from the fundamental content of the thread. If I were to do this in this thread, I'm afraid a lot of posts would be deleted.

The next solution is to lock the thread, but everyone loses when this happens.

Can we please just all return to the topic at hand and discuss Freddy's ideas in a general way, such as Lea did in her post #44?

Anyone who doesn't have a general comment can take it to a PM, else I will have to close this thread.

[Kaz]

Freddie is just so great What a post! What did you start? I think we now have a lot of people thinking hard about where they are at... this I like!

[docrobbysherry]

Well, I simply dislike ALL THOTLESS FOLKS!

In fact, the only people I dislike MORE, r those that rite posts longer than one paragraph! Because I can't concentrate longer than that after I've had my wine!

Boy! 2+ paragraphs? Talk about THOTLESS!?

[MissMarcie]

Well, I simply dislike ALL THOTLESS FOLKS!

In fact, the only people I dislike MORE, r those that rite posts longer than one paragraph! Because I can't concentrate longer than that after I've had my wine!

Boy! 2+ paragraphs? Talk about THOTLESS!?

Posting what you dislike while living in a glass house?

[Debutante]

I support Frederique and her very feminine approach to expressing feelings and thoughts and perceptions. This femininity is why Frederique has many responders and friends, I think. I wish I could be more like her.
The thoughtless and pushy male, or female (and there are too many of that!) aren't role models for me.
Frederique is neither immature or afraid of feelings. Hers is a very feminine approach seen in many women...
Your are a lovely model for us all...........

[marlaNYC]

I hate the idea of a newbie reading those and being forced back from whence he or she came, after an initial euphoria propelled them to this site for some genuine answers about crossdressing.

this. while not a newbie to dressing, i'm still a newbie on this site and had found it it to be largely intelligent, amusing, thought provoking and helpful, with the occasional "walk away from this, don't respond, play nice and don't offend" thought.

i've been following a lot of posts here over the last couple of days that have really saddened me and left me feeling extremely isolated, exactly that newbie you describe - forced back to whence i came. one in particular left me so angry and dispirited that i had to walk away from responding, as everything that i wanted to say was filled with pure venom. the callousness of the wording (as i read it) severely diminished the generally positive outlook i've garnered from this site. i came back to the post hours later and crafted a reply that, while calmer, was still full of fury and sadness at feeling attacked. mercifully, i hit the wrong button and the post was gone, and i was too drained to try and recompose it. so i left it alone.

but it has left me with an all pervading morose, hopeless feeling. am i really going to be judged and scorned so mercilessly on a site where i've come looking for support, help, ideas, where my contributions - small as they may be - are nothing because someone doesn't like my type of CD? is the person i am - neither male or female - so reviled?

reading this entire post and a lot of the replies has brightened my morning a little, but i still feel bleak and that 'my kind' - whatever the f**k my kind is - is really held in pretty low regard here. maybe i just need a break. maybe i'm just having an overly sensitive week.

Frédérique, thank you for your thoughtful ideas and for giving me back a little of the hope that has been smashed over the rocks in the last few days.

[Piora]

I support Frederique and her very feminine approach to expressing feelings and thoughts and perceptions. This femininity is why Frederique has many responders and friends, I think. I wish I could be more like her.
The thoughtless and pushy male, or female (and there are too many of that!) aren't role models for me.
Frederique is neither immature or afraid of feelings. Hers is a very feminine approach seen in many women...
Your are a lovely model for us all...........

And I second that! I like how she thinks, and feel that her ideals and perception of CDing are very much like my own. I love her posts, and always look forward to reading what she has to say.

[Tina B.]

Ladies this has been interesting, but I'm just to tired to jump in to it. Thank you Freddie, for bringing it up, and thank you Veronica for making her point for her, great example of what she was saying.
I've been doing this for over 60 years nowand pretty much know what I am, and what works for me. Veronica, this is not lie, I love my closet, I have no desire to go out that front door, I've done it, didn't like it, and am happy just where I am. Marla and Rose, sometimes, I get left with the same feeling, but then I find another thread, that makes me feel better, stay with us!
Tina B.