Lets Get to the Real Benefit of an Orchiectomy

[Traci Elizabeth]

Many of us, myself included say we want an Orchiectomy but do we really know why? I mean what is the benefit say in my personal example:

From the 2 years on large doses of Spiro, my testes have shrunk up so much that they are almost non-existed and have totally retracted up inside if me.

So what would an Orchiectomy do for me that is not already done with Spiro?

My testes don't hang down, they are not visible whatsoever,they don't effect me wearing a swimsuit, and I certainly can't sit on them or be hurt from them by accident and they are not in the way -- their hidden up inside me.

To me it NOW comes down to having an Orchiectomy with the risks that might occur and long recovery or taking Spiro (which to me seems a lot safer and does wonders for my blood pressure).

Am I missing any other benefits?

[Zenith]

Dr. Bowers addresses this on her site. And while she isn't the be-all source of information, I think it makes sense what she says for those headed for SRS/GRS...

"(MTF) I am considering having an orchiectomy for androgen supression
but I really don't want to complicate my SRS surgery. What kinds of issues could having an orchiectomy before SRS, and are there ways to minimize the possible complications?

This is my most Frequently Asked Question these days, so I hope to answer it once and for all. I counsel against orchiectomy, as it drains money which could go towards SRS, unless this is your final destination (as it is for some individuals who, for health or personal reasons, never plan on SRS).
There are no great risks to orchiectomy (such as shrinkage or scarring) as proposed by some surgeons. However, I find little advantage in doing this step as there are perfectly adequate testosterone blockers available in pill form (spironolactone or Proscar).

We've found spironolactone online for 0.50 cents / 100mG dose. At a typical pre-op dosage of 200mG/day, that is $30 per month. Even at a bargain basement $1000 for an outpatient orchiectomy (not recommended), the breakeven point is 3 YEARS. So unless you have some serious health issues that preclude taking testosterone blockers or are planning to have surgery 4-5 years down the road, an orchiectomy is going to cost you more money than simply taking the meds and saving your money. (27Jan04)"

[cara]

Even though my hormone levels were at natal female levels before my Orchi I noticed marked increase in the rate of feminization after the surgery.
Also, for 10% of the cost of SRS in the USA you can qualify for complete gender and I.D. change in a lot of states. Plus if the Orchi is done correctly
SRS later is not an issue according to Bowers.
Cara

[cara]

Dr. Bowers addresses this on her site. And while she isn't the be-all source of information, I think it makes sense what she says for those headed for SRS/GRS...

"(MTF) I am considering having an orchiectomy for androgen supression
but I really don't want to complicate my SRS surgery. What kinds of issues could having an orchiectomy before SRS, and are there ways to minimize the possible complications?

This is my most Frequently Asked Question these days, so I hope to answer it once and for all. I counsel against orchiectomy, as it drains money which could go towards SRS, unless this is your final destination (as it is for some individuals who, for health or personal reasons, never plan on SRS).
There are no great risks to orchiectomy (such as shrinkage or scarring) as proposed by some surgeons. However, I find little advantage in doing this step as there are perfectly adequate testosterone blockers available in pill form (spironolactone or Proscar).

We've found spironolactone online for 0.50 cents / 100mG dose. At a typical pre-op dosage of 200mG/day, that is $30 per month. Even at a bargain basement $1000 for an outpatient orchiectomy (not recommended), the breakeven point is 3 YEARS. So unless you have some serious health issues that preclude taking testosterone blockers or are planning to have surgery 4-5 years down the road, an orchiectomy is going to cost you more money than simply taking the meds and saving your money. (27Jan04)"
That opinion is from a post from seven years ago I believe her opinion has moved away from that position. Dr. Bowers did my Orchi in Mar 2011 and even though she was aware that SRS was in my plans she was fully supportive and didn't counsel me otherwise. Currently SRS with her is $22.5K, she did my Orchi for $3K. I rather spend the $19K savings on FFS which I need more of the two surgeries.
Cara

[Zenith]

Again this advice is for those headed for SRS...Orchi as a final destination is a completely different question...

So you would be $3,000 closer to FFS or SRS with some patience...

And it's not a post, it's on her current site content...if she honestly felt differently she would change it...

Finally you mention a savings of $19,000.

"...Dr. Bowers did my Orchi in Mar 2011 and even though she was aware that SRS was in my plans she was fully supportive and didn't counsel me otherwise. Currently SRS with her is $22.5K, she did my Orchi for $3K. I rather spend the $19K savings on FFS which I need more of the two surgeries.
Cara..."

This implies that you do not have plans for SRS which is again, a different question than whether or not there are benefits for a patient to undergo Orchi that also plans on having SRS...

[Katesback]

Orchi= the married TS persons common ave. Orcie is a cop out to remain married because the man parts are still there.

[natasha]

I had an orchi about 1 1/2 years ago, and i dont regret it one second (except for not getting it done sooner). If there was a financial way to get the full surgery done, I might have waited but reallity is its not gonna happen any time soon. They are gone, good riddence, so long, etc.....

[natasha]

Orchi= the married TS persons common ave. Orcie is a cop out to remain married because the man parts are still there.

Kate, my choice is/was to send my kids to college or SRS...........................................

Which would you pick????? For me it is easy...............College!!!

To say "a cop out" without knowing everything that is involved in such a personal decision is not only rude, it is so wrong in more ways that can be simply described in any response.

[Katesback]

But if you are a woman your going to do what it takes to be a woman now aren't you. An orchie leaves you a man without testicles. Women don't have penises.

Also sending your kids to college is nice but they are adults and can actually take care of themselves not cant they?




Kate, my choice is/was to send my kids to college or SRS...........................................

Which would you pick????? For me it is easy...............College!!!

To say "a cop out" without knowing everything that is involved in such a personal decision is not only rude, it is so wrong in more ways that can be simply described in any response.

[Zenith]

God I hate to agree with Kate, but looking at the avatar... ATV + Riding Mower (Cub Cadet it looks like) + Orchi = very close to the cost of SRS in Thailand...

[Katesback]

Cant tell you how many trans people I have met that claim not to have money for surgery but drive nice cars, have tons of money in this that or the other thing. Basically they are really just dreamers because lets face it only a very small few really are serious and go on to have srs.

Finally look at the avitar. Looks a lot like a cross dresser pic now doesn't it?



God I hate to agree with Kate, but looking at the avatar... ATV + Riding Mower (Cub Cadet it looks like) + Orchi = very close to the cost of SRS in Thailand...

[Traci Elizabeth]

[QUOTE=Katesback;2620792] Women don't have penises. [QUOTE]

They ALSO don't have a prostrate gland or an Adams apple or male pattern baldness, or a brow ridge, large palms, and a host of other physical differences. SO I guess if you want to rest your laurels on facts, then you are not a woman either.
Now are you!

[Katesback]

I already have had some of those fixed and the rest if they could be addressed I would be saving for those fixes.



[QUOTE=Katesback;2620792] Women don't have penises. [QUOTE]

They ALSO don't have a prostrate gland or an Adams apple or male pattern baldness, or a brow ridge, large palms, and a host of other physical differences. SO I guess if you want to rest your laurels on facts, then you are not a woman either.
Now are you!

[Traci Elizabeth]

I already have had some of those fixed and the rest if they could be addressed I would be saving for those fixes.


[QUOTE=Traci Elizabeth;2620843][QUOTE=Katesback;2620792] Women don't have penises.


Ah but you can't and you can't change your skeleton either - so you are no more or less of a woman than the gal with the penis.

Even though I am looking for SRS with Dr. C in 2012, I still think that those women who have medical, financial, or other personal issues for not having SRS are every bit as much a woman as any one of us are.

[Zenith]

I really don't want to get snippy here. Having just an Orchi and stopping due to medical is fine. Not having the resources and having to wait for SRS is fine too. And deciding all you want is Orchi is your decision to make. But saying you are a classic Harry Benjamin transsexual wanting SRS while your actions don't match your words strikes many of us as being disingenious...

[Traci Elizabeth]

I really don't want to get snippy here. Having just an Orchi and stopping due to medical is fine. Not having the resources and having to wait for SRS is fine too. And deciding all you want is Orchi is your decision to make. But saying you are a classic Harry Benjamin transsexual wanting SRS while your actions don't match your words strikes many of us as being disingenious...

My actions of scheduling SRS in 2012 for myself is my personal choice and in no way reflects on those women who don't have SRS for one reason or another.

What I find disingenuous is when when gals with SRS proclaim that other gals with penises are NOT women as in Kate's remarks.

[Zenith]

My actions of scheduling SRS in 2012 for myself is my personal choice and in no way reflects on those women who don't have SRS for one reason or another.

What I find disingenuous is when when gals with SRS proclaim that other gals with penises are NOT women as in Kate's remarks.

Of course it's arrogant to say transexuals that still have penises are not women. But those who WANT to keep their penises are by definition not transsexuals nor women. You can't have it both ways this requires sacrifice...

[Katesback]

Well as ya wish I suppose. And if you wish to say that no matter what one does they are never a woman makes you fit in really well in this forum. Probably make you a very good activist as well.



[QUOTE=Katesback;2620846]I already have had some of those fixed and the rest if they could be addressed I would be saving for those fixes.


[QUOTE=Traci Elizabeth;2620843]


Ah but you can't and you can't change your skeleton either - so you are no more or less of a woman than the gal with the penis.

Even though I am looking for SRS with Dr. C in 2012, I still think that those women who have medical, financial, or other personal issues for not having SRS are every bit as much a woman as any one of us are.

[Traci Elizabeth]

Of course it's arrogant to say transexuals that still have penises are not women. But those who WANT to keep their penises are by definition not transsexuals nor women. You can't have it both ways this requires sacrifice...

So where you a woman before your recent SRS?

I will have to disagree with you on this issue. You yourself stated that there are medical, physical, and financial reasons why a gal on here would not get SRS but as I have claimed, that still does not make them any less of a woman.

With your logic, all of us who have changed our names legally, got a DL, Passports, Social Security, and even birth certificates with "female" on them, we still are not females by your standards. And even those of us who have full grown female breasts, dead center in the female hormone ranges, and have had other physical changes to bring out our own beauty, you say we are still not women.

I see this with a lot of gals who have gotten their SRS and they think that no one else can now claim womanhood without it.

I guess part of SRS Standard Operating surgery procedures these days are the removal of one's compassion, understanding, and acceptance of others.

[Aprilrain]

saying you are a classic Harry Benjamin transsexual wanting SRS while your actions don't match your words strikes many of us as being disingenious...

Here is the Benjamin scale which does not contain the word "classic" I left out the "transvestitism" part of the scale. The transsexual part of the scale starts at type"4" and indicates that these people do not require surgery but do need hormones. not until type "6" does it say surgery is "urgently requested" so even a type "5" though "requested" may forego SRS for one reason or another.

WOW! according to this I fit the type "6" high intensity! the best. I guess I'm young since I desire relations with a "normal male as a female"

Type Four: Transsexual (Nonsurgical)[2]
Gender Feeling: Undecided. Wavering between TV and TS. [2]
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses as often as possible with insufficient relief of his gender discomfort. May live as a man or woman; sometimes alternating.[2]
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Libido often low. Asexual or auto-erotic. Could be bisexual. Could also be married and have children. [2]
Kinsey Scale: 1-4 [2]
Conversion Operation: Attractive but not requested or attraction not admitted. [2]
Estrogen Medication: Needed for comfort and emotional balance. [2]
Psychotherapy: Only as guidance; otherwise refused or unsuccessful. [2]
Remarks: Social life dependent upon circumstances. [2]

Type Five: True Transsexual (moderate intensity)[2]
Gender Feeling: Feminine (trapped in male body) [2]
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives and works as woman if possible. Insufficient relief from dressing. [2]
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Libido low. Asexual auto-erotic, or passive homosexual activity. May have been married and have children.[2]
Kinsey Scale: 4-6 [2]
Conversion Operation: Requested and usually indicated. [2]
Estrogen Medication: Needed as substitute for or preliminary to operation. [2]
Psychotherapy: Rejected. Useless as to cure. Permissive psychological guidance. [2]
Remarks: Operation hoped for and worked for. Often attained. [2]

Type Six: True Transsexual (high intensity)[2]
Gender Feeling: Feminine. Total psycho-sexual inversion. [2]
Dressing Habits and Social Life: May live and work as a woman. Dressing gives insufficient relief. Gender discomfort intense. [2]
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Intensely desires relations with normal male as female if young. May have been married and have [2]**children, by using fantasies in intercourse.[2]
Kinsey Scale: 6 [2]
Conversion Operation: Urgently requested and usually attained. Indicated[2].
Estrogen Medication: Required for partial relief. [2]
Psychotherapy: Psychological guidance or psychotherapy for symptomatic relief only.[2]
Remarks: Despises his male sex organs. Danger of suicide or self-mutilation, if too long frustrated.[2]

Type seven: Truer Than True Transsexual (higher than high intensity)
Gender Feeling: More Feminine than YOU! total psycho!
Dressing Habits and Social Life: frumpy doesn't need to prove femininity by dressing nicely! only relief; pointing out to other lesser transsexuals how much more transsexuallier she is than them.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: well it would be men but she is such a bitch she can't get one. may have been married and had kids. GOD do we feel sorry for them!
Kinsey Scale Off the freaking charts
Conversion operation: Does it her self in basement with duct tape and a Dremal. Indicated.
Estrogen Medication: So bitchy naturally she doesn't actually need it.
Psychotherapy: Desperately needed however rejected as she already knows everything.
Remarks: self operation in basement a success, back to truck driving and gun shooting in no time!

[Zenith]

Are you even reading what you quoted? I wrote that you can't say transexuals that still have penises are not women. But how can you say you are gender dysphoric when you WANT to keep one of the biggest determinents of gender that is entirely fixable?

[arbon]

Short of winning the loto I am probably going for an orch simply so I can get an F on my id. Seems like a damn good reason to me.

SRS is not financially in the picture for a long time.


Orchi= the married TS persons common ave. Orcie is a cop out to remain married because the man parts are still there.

What a load of BS :thumbsdn:

[Katesback]

As I have said before SRS changes you. It technically is the beginning of a whole new transition. If you have not had srs then you cannot know. I thought I was all woman before srs but a wise ts told me shortly before srs that it will all change after surgery. Of couse like so many pre girls I did not believe her. I was wrong. Now days I can look back with the wisdom of knowing and say that prior to srs you have training wheels and fun. After it becomes a LOT more real.

By the way for just over 12000 dollars one can get srs by a well known and respected doctor in thailand. That price includes hotel and airfare. I am sorry but I cannot believe that srs is out of the relm of possibility of most people that REALLY want it.


So where you a woman before your recent SRS?

I will have to disagree with you on this issue. You yourself stated that there are medical, physical, and financial reasons why a gal on here would not get SRS but as I have claimed, that still does not make them any less of a woman.

With your logic, all of us who have changed our names legally, got a DL, Passports, Social Security, and even birth certificates with "female" on them, we still are not females by your standards. And even those of us who have full grown female breasts, dead center in the female hormone ranges, and have had other physical changes to bring out our own beauty, you say we are still not women.

I see this with a lot of gals who have gotten their SRS and they think that no one else can now claim womanhood without it.

I guess part of SRS Standard Operating surgery procedures these days are the removal of one's compassion, understanding, and acceptance of others.

[Zenith]

As I have said before SRS changes you. It technically is the beginning of a whole new transition. If you have not had srs then you cannot know. I thought I was all woman before srs but a wise ts told me shortly before srs that it will all change after surgery. Of couse like so many pre girls I did not believe her. I was wrong. Now days I can look back with the wisdom of knowing and say that prior to srs you have training wheels and fun. After it becomes a LOT more real.

It IS a huge reality check. Trying to say that for either good or ill gets you shouted down here. I have been saying forever it's time to move on...maybe it is now...

[Traci Elizabeth]

All of these points of views/opinions are just that and we are all speaking for ourselves. Nevertheless, I grant all my sisters "Female" status regardless of the plumbing between their legs. I rest my case and we have gotten so far off the original topic/question and I am much to blame for that.

[Zenith]

Traci, you have put so many words in my mouth and judged me whilest quoting statements I made that contradict your statements regarding me. How do you know how many CD, TG, and TS people I have helped in real life and online with no judgement?

[Rianna Humble]

Well as ya wish I suppose. And if you wish to say that no matter what one does they are never a woman makes you fit in really well in this forum. Probably make you a very good activist as well.

Grow up!








Your immaturity and vicious attacks on anyone who doesn't worship the ground you walk on are sickening.

[Andrea85]

As I have said before SRS changes you. It technically is the beginning of a whole new transition. If you have not had srs then you cannot know. I thought I was all woman before srs but a wise ts told me shortly before srs that it will all change after surgery. Of couse like so many pre girls I did not believe her. I was wrong. Now days I can look back with the wisdom of knowing and say that prior to srs you have training wheels and fun. After it becomes a LOT more real.

By the way for just over 12000 dollars one can get srs by a well known and respected doctor in thailand. That price includes hotel and airfare. I am sorry but I cannot believe that srs is out of the relm of possibility of most people that REALLY want it.

As much as I hate to, I have to agree with you totally on this. I'm still pre-op for the moment, but I know several post-op girls here and they say the same things. I came into my transition with an open mind on how things were, and this is one thing I do believe. And yes, with the prices of SRS in Thailand, there;s no real reason to make any excuses on not getting it done, barring health issues of course. I am unemployed, have been for 4 years, and am unable to work, but I know for a fact I'll have the money in just a few years. Money issues make no sense to me. I pay a $70 a month cell bill, go through a 6 pack of water a day, and a pack to pack and a half of ciggs a day, and my trucks gas tank is always full. Even unemployed and with no gov't assistance, I have plenty of money. So there really isn't an excuse to not get it done. I'm just saving up money and waiting.

[Katesback]

Ya know rianna I have never attacked anyone on this forum and for a long time lived with you and many others attacking me. One of my favorites was just the other day with one of the rocket scientists with her devine wisdom said I was a biggot and then went on to say that I HATE trans people. I am not sure how she got her magical powers because I have never been able to read other peoples minds but damm she can. So that makes her a tranny and a mystic.

The irony is I express my opinions and points of view. I honestly could care less if you agree with them or not. When it becomes entertaining is when you and the rest of them start attacking my points of view.

You and all you other pre op girls that think you know what your talking about truely are entertaining! I mean where else can one come and read this stuff? Really.

Katie



Grow up!








Your immaturity and vicious attacks on anyone who doesn't worship the ground you walk on are sickening.

[Kathryn Martin]

Orchi= the married TS persons common ave. Orcie is a cop out to remain married because the man parts are still there.

Hey, hey what about the married person having SRS...... I plan to remain married...

[Kathryn Martin]

Are you even reading what you quoted? I wrote that you can't say transexuals that still have penises are not women. But how can you say you are gender dysphoric when you WANT to keep one of the biggest determinents of gender that is entirely fixable?

God I wish people would not conflate gender and sex. If you do everyone is a woman as long as they say so. The idea that you can be anything no matter the biological realities is very alien to me.

[Kathryn Martin]

Many of us, myself included say we want an Orchiectomy but do we really know why? I mean what is the benefit say in my personal example:

From the 2 years on large doses of Spiro, my testes have shrunk up so much that they are almost non-existed and have totally retracted up inside if me.

So what would an Orchiectomy do for me that is not already done with Spiro?

My testes don't hang down, they are not visible whatsoever,they don't effect me wearing a swimsuit, and I certainly can't sit on them or be hurt from them by accident and they are not in the way -- their hidden up inside me.

To me it NOW comes down to having an Orchiectomy with the risks that might occur and long recovery or taking Spiro (which to me seems a lot safer and does wonders for my blood pressure).

Am I missing any other benefits?

Going back to the original post: I think yu summed it up just fine. Orchiectomy is in my view a medical procedure that is used in certain situations such as testicular cancer, prostate cancer etc to ensure the survival of the individual. It does reduce testicular testosterone production to zero, which is more than simply taking Spiro. So it becomes a matter of where are you headed. If you are heading to SRS then why have an orchie. If you want to keep your penis, by all means have an orchie.

[mustlovedogs]

Orchi= the married TS persons common ave. Orcie is a cop out to remain married because the man parts are still there.

Not true. I'm post-SRS and married. My wife accompianed me for FFS and took care of me post-op. She could not go with me for SRS due to her work but took a week off to care of me when I returned. My SRS surgery buddy is married. Our wives met in May of this year. The patient next in line behind me for SRS visited the day before her surgery. She was married also.

Married post-ops are much more common than you think Kate.

[chloe23]

Not true. I'm post-SRS and married. My wife accompianed me for FFS and took care of me post-op. She could not go with me for SRS due to her work but took a week off to care of me when I returned. My SRS surgery buddy is married. Our wives met in May of this year. The patient next in line behind me for SRS visited the day before her surgery. She was married also.

Married post-ops are much more common than you think Kate.

I would have to agree with Mustlovethedogs on this one. I am also married and post-op just like Mustlovethedogs. Married post-op's are much more common then you think, you just don't hear much from them. Everybody seems to think SRS is the end to a marriage, but that is not true in allot of cases. It takes allot of hard work and communication to stabalize the marriage and make it work. I know it was hard especially with 2 sons ages 12 and 11 who fully support me. I know GID sucks, but i'm a much happier person today as the woman i was meant to be. I had no choice but to transition and my wife understood that

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Congrats on the marraige. I found that because my ex is a wonderful person and we have kids, we are still close and still care about each other. Bbecause I frankly was a poor husband, but a true friend and companion, it really doesn't feel that different to me than our marriage... She remarried and I hope she is happy ...

When I had srs in Arizona I met a wonderful couple that stayed married.

[Bree-asaurus]

You and all you other pre op girls that think you know what your talking about truely are entertaining!e

You and all the other.... oh it's just YOU, who think that because you got SRS that you are somehow better than everyone and know everything. THAT is truly entertaining!

But me thinks you've always been this way... you don't really grow into this kind of ignorance. It's always been there.

[Starling]

...Women don't have penises...

Actually, in that sense, women never had penises.

:) Lallie

[Hope]

I think one of the biggest reasons to have an orchi if you are going to be unable to have SRS in the next 12-24 months is the simple reality that HRT is more effective after an orchi. Yes, Spiro can and does lower ones T, but it doesn't do it immediately, nor does it happen perfectly. Not having the testosterone factories eliminates the issue all together. No T to block, means no T to interfere with your E, means more effective feminisation from your E. That is a bonus that is worth the 2K, even if it wasn't offset by other savings.

And then there is the reality of the cost difference. My Spiro currently costs me about $60/mo. And now that my dosage has gone up, that price will go up with it. That is a real-world cost, not a "we found it for way cheeper on the internet 5 years ago" cost. That means that in less than 33 months, my orchi is free... and the other benefits are gravy. I am probably looking at 5 years before I can have SRS for a variety of reasons, including financial... so having the orchi will actually be LESS expensive over the long term.

While Traci has had some great results with size reduction, not all of us will. In fact according to my endo, that sort of result is unusual. Drat. Personally I have other, lets say, issues, that mean that I will NEVER have that sort of reduction in size. I can't even tuck pain-free. The only way I will look right in a swim-suit (To say nothing of size 8 jeans) in the next 5 years is going to be post-orchi.

And then there is the issue of side-effects. I have only been doing this for about 7 months - but I am already sick of having to pee RIGHT NOW. I am also sick of the leg cramps... and god only knows what else the spiro, in doses large enough to make my pharmacist look at me over her glasses and remind me in no uncertain terms, every time I have my prescription filled, to never take my doses within 8 hours of one another, is doing to the rest of my body. I would like to still have a liver in 5 years. God damn it, if I am going to poison my liver, it had damn well better be with alcohol. Reducing the side-effects is a big issue.

When you add it up, an orchi will be cheeper, it will make my HRT more effective, it will allow me to wear normal clothes without pain, and it will allow me to avoid unwanted side-effects. Why is it I don't want to do this again?

About the other garbage happening in this thread:

I find it truly disappointing when post-op girls turn around and try to pull the ladder up behind themselves. This behavior is nothing more than in-group / out-group border maintenance. It is the same garbage that is at the root of racism, and it is a big component of what makes most churches such miserable places to be. It is based in the same insecurity that makes teen girls mock us as viciously as they do. Teenaged girls mock us because they are suffering from crushing levels of insecurity, and they manage that insecurity by trying to prove that they are a part of the in-group by as publicly as possible rejecting those who they perceive to be a part of the out-group. In the case of our post-op sisters, the insecurity felt is about identity, and they try to prove to the cis world that they really are women, by denying womanity to those of us who a large portion of the population think aren't really women after all. They try to claim their legitimacy at the expense of ours. Which ultimately will be self defeating. It is also bullshit, and it is not what sisters do to one another. So - for all of you post-op girls who used to be my sisters, and who have since decided that I am not as good as you are because I haven't yet paid the 20K to a very skilled surgeon to craft a vagina for me. Fine. We aren't sisters. I am comfortable with that. But it isn't because I am not a woman, it's because unlike the teen girls you emulate, I have a soul.

It is sadly true, that the biggest transphobe is invariably another transgirl... I always assumed that like with homophobes that this only applied to those still in the closet. I am starting to think it applies to insecure post-ops too.

[Starling]

We're all out here hanging off the cliff by the same slender branch, and yet we're chewing away at it.

:eek: Lallie

[Kathryn Martin]

....So - for all of you post-op girls who used to be my sisters, and who have since decided that I am not as good as you are because I haven't yet paid the 20K to a very skilled surgeon to craft a vagina for me. Fine. We aren't sisters. I am comfortable with that. But it isn't because I am not a woman, it's because unlike the teen girls you emulate, I have a soul.

It is sadly true, that the biggest transphobe is invariably another transgirl... I always assumed that like with homophobes that this only applied to those still in the closet. I am starting to think it applies to insecure post-ops too.

Really, that is your conclusion? That post op persons don't have a soul and are transphobes?

[Katesback]

Dont forget that she also concluded that the post-op girls are insecure, and emulate teenage girls. I am not sure how she assumes there is a sisterhood. Perhaps its from going to conferences and hanging out with other women with penises. Also she appears to overlook the magic that happens after SRS and assumes shes a woman now. Perhaps thats why once a girl gets srs she often says hell with the tranny stuff and moves on and you dont hear from her again. I dont think that has anything to do with insecurity or emulating teen girls but hey some might feel it does. I have had people ask me why am I here. well as I said the other day, "where else can one come and read such entertaining stuff". It kind of reminds me of reading the Onion but its real here or at least real to some.

P.S. While you can certainly pay $20,000 for SRS there are good doctors doing it for a LOT cheaper. The doc I went to is just over $10,000. Thats less than a new car and well within the relm of most peoples abilities. Add airfare and hotel and its just over $12,000. Still cheaper than a new car.


Really, that is your conclusion? That post op persons don't have a soul and are transphobes?

[Frances]

Many of us, myself included say we want an Orchiectomy but do we really know why? I mean what is the benefit say in my personal example:

From the 2 years on large doses of Spiro, my testes have shrunk up so much that they are almost non-existed and have totally retracted up inside if me.

So what would an Orchiectomy do for me that is not already done with Spiro?

My testes don't hang down, they are not visible whatsoever,they don't effect me wearing a swimsuit, and I certainly can't sit on them or be hurt from them by accident and they are not in the way -- their hidden up inside me.

To me it NOW comes down to having an Orchiectomy with the risks that might occur and long recovery or taking Spiro (which to me seems a lot safer and does wonders for my blood pressure).

Am I missing any other benefits?

Also going back to the original question, my body has changed more in the seven months since SRS than it did in the 2.5 years prior on Androcur. Losing the T factory is essential to full feminization. If SRS is not feasible, I would consider it in your case.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Fwiw... Most people that have th orchi procedure are happy with it.

It's better than t blockers. and it's relatively safe.

The whole debate over what it means is another question.


Hope you are pissing in the wind...(which I can't really do anymore..hehe) with this whole transphobia thing. If you keep this up you will accuse everyone in the forum of it by early next year.

[Frances]

They ALSO don't have a prostrate gland or an Adams apple or male pattern baldness, or a brow ridge, large palms, and a host of other physical differences. SO I guess if you want to rest your laurels on facts, then you are not a woman either.
Now are you!

Actually, all of those things are found in women in varying degrees. Sandra Bullock's adam's apple is quite obvious and moves around a lot when she speaks. I have seen bigger brow ridges than mine on women, and some of my male friends have the tinniest of hands. I see women with receiding hair lines (male patterned) all the time on my way to work.

Women born transsexual have penises. Some choose to correct their birth defect, some decide to live with it. SRS, however, is a huge game changer in a very unexpected way.

[Zenith]

Hope, you yourself posted in another thread how much a difference your gender maker change made after you did it. And you didn't think it would make a difference before you made it. Why can't you allow for the view of post-op girls that SRS is even a greater change, even though as pre-ops they perhaps didn't view it as such?

And calling anyone who doesn't agree with you a transphobe is goofy. I have scores of transman, transwomen, pre-op, cd'er, genderqueer, etc friends. And sure seem to be laughing and having a good time with them in pictures. Some of which are public. I have given talks that were archived. Sure doesn't sound like someone afraid of trans people/issues to me...

[Jay Cee]

All those who get their hackles up reading what Kate says really should click the "ignore" option. You know she loves getting a reaction, and I doubt she is disappointed very often. :rolleyes:

I'm not far enough along this transexual journey to offer a valid opinion on whether or not having a penis still allows someone to be a woman. At this point, I don't care.

What I do care about is seeing the kind folks here answering the questions posted, instead of going on the warpath. Please, please consider that option.

:Peace:

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Women born transsexual have penises. Some choose to correct their birth defect, some decide to live with it. SRS, however, is a huge game changer in a very unexpected way.

What is it about this sentence that turns intelligent thinking people into people that cannot understand the meaning of words..!!! and i mean that in the nicest possible way...
nobody except one or two people are judging anybody... nobody except one or two people are saying you are not a woman...

we even have posters that believe we can NEVER be women...just "the best approximation"...

this is not a controversial thing...this is a discussion of WHAT PEOPLE ARE DOING ABOUT A PROBLEM>>...not whether anybody is a "woman" or not...

Hey if you say you are a woman, then i can't argue with you.....

I will admit in total and complete honesty, sometimes i think about how incredibly difficult this has been, and all the crap i have put up with...and i think of what i gave up.. and i think of what i got for doing all this.....
and sometimes i read posts that are so full of self justification, anxiety, or obvious shame (This makes me so sad, because i feel alot of shame), that i have reacted to those posts by being obnoxious and maybe feeling quite justified myself!!!
and thats when i think to myself, just do something!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Katesback]

Aside from entertainment I have to say that I have all along been pretty clear. I personally like all the people here was born with a problem. I spent my time reflecting and got it corrected. Along the way I learned a lot of things and met a lot of trans people. I then worked for a while helping trans people in health related circumstances. I have to say that I have met a ton of train wrecks some post op but most pre op.

In the end I really dont care what you do but I will say this. You are a transsexual if you take your transition seriously with the goal to get SRS (and FFS in many cases). If you dont have those goals your NOT a transsexual. Your trans something and thats fine but not transsexual.

Finally I was born a woman. I had a problem and got it fixed. That fact does not make me better than anyone else but it does mean I have lived through a process that VERY few have. For anyone who has not lived through it to suggest they can forsee what life will be like after SRS is at best entertaining and at worse stupid. It would be like me suggesting I know what it is like to race in a race car like Dannica Patric does. I have never raced and surely would sound like a fool to think I could understand what it is like for her.

It is true that for someone to really be a woman in all respects (as modern medicine allows) they must have SRS. If one has not had it then sure they can call themselves a woman like I did prior to SRS but truthfully I can look back now and say that the pre days are a time to learn and evolve for after SRS it all becomes a lot more real. That is why so few post op girls stick around the community. They moved past this ever present disfunction and suffering and evolved into the best chance they could have to be normal. Thier choice to leave the community is not turning thier back as much as evolution. They grew up and left the nest and now live thier lives in hopefully a normal fassion.

I have seen some people here say that no matter what (srs or not) a trassexual will never be a woman. I would advise any of those people that they really should do some soul searching because with that attitude they are already setting themselves up for failure. To remain perpetually a tranny is one of the worse things a person can do. As stated before ask any long time activist if they regret being out and the answer is yes. For someone to voluntarily admit to themselves and the world they are trans is cutting thier throats for any chance to be normal. In the pre days it is hard to understand this concept but then thats one of the changes that happen after SRS. Everything becomes really normal if your lucky.

I used to have that desire to help people but sadly of all the populations I have worked with the trans community is the worse when it comes to listening and learning for those with experience. It is like every trans person has to re-invent the wheel and they overlook the fact that someone before them has already done that. The orchie question is a perfect example. This is a recurring question in the trans community. Barring a serious medical condition a real transsexual would never get an orchie because it still leaves them with male parts and thats silly.

One of the other post op girls said the other day in reflection that it might be about time she hangs up her hat in this forum and calls it quits. I understand her feelings. I know my days are also numbered. Truthfully the reason I remain here is for the entertainment value. I gave up trying to help the serious transsexual that is here for real information. Based on what I have read over time I doubt there really are that many serious people that come here. I just have to remind myself how few ever actually get SRS and the bell goes off.

I have said before that I could care less if someone is a crossdresser, gender screw, or whatever. If they want to go out and proclaim that they are a tranny and become an activist thats fine as well. What I do care about is that they understand that they are not like me and I would guess the unspoken post op girls. For the most part we choose to live our lives as normal as we can and there is no chance in hell that one of the former mentioned people are like us. We are the rarest of the rare doing whatever we can to live a normal life and we are NOT sisters to that group.

That does not make a post op better it only means they have choose to live a normal life. So I ask you if thats what you want and if you really want it then are you preparred to execute your plans. If so then welcome to the world of a real transsexual woman. Or perhaps as time goes by you will just call yourself a woman because you lived through the hell and crap and all that and now you know what life is like to be normal. When you get there you will have my and many post op girls appreciation and perhaps a sisterhood of the few that REALLY did it and came out normal.

Katie

[Hope]

Really, that is your conclusion? That post op persons don't have a soul and are transphobes?

My conclusion is that those post-op girls who deny the rest of us our identity and behave like insecure teenagers are soulless teenagers. Yes. That is not to say that all post-op girls are, only the soulless insecure ones. Who have very loudly and repeatedly self-identified in this thread.


Hope, you yourself posted in another thread how much a difference your gender maker change made after you did it. And you didn't think it would make a difference before you made it. Why can't you allow for the view of post-op girls that SRS is even a greater change, even though as pre-ops they perhaps didn't view it as such?

Sure. I have said that my legal stuff was a huge change for me. The part you don't seem to get is that it doesn't make me deny everyone else who hasn't had a name change the same status. I don't think that those who haven't had a legal name change are less than I am. I don't go about talking about how they are not real women or not really serious. Get it?


And calling anyone who doesn't agree with you a transphobe is goofy. I have scores of transman, transwomen, pre-op, cd'er, genderqueer, etc friends. And sure seem to be laughing and having a good time with them in pictures. Some of which are public. I have given talks that were archived. Sure doesn't sound like someone afraid of trans people/issues to me...

I am sure you have lots of black friends and gay friends too! I bet you even let them in your house! The ones who are really black, and the ones who are really gay I mean.

[Zenith]

...I am sure you have lots of black friends and gay friends too! I bet you even let them in your house! The ones who are really black, and the ones who are really gay I mean.

Yes Hope you have clearly identified yourself as an "insecure" one. I don't think I'm too good for anybody just because I'm post-op, ask anyone who met me at SCC last month. This was a truly shitty remark to have made towards me, and I resent the implication more than you know.

[Katesback]

Thinking she is a postal worker. You might want to let it roll and call it a day with her.





Yes Hope you have clearly identified yourself as an "insecure" one. I don't think I'm too good for anybody just because I'm post-op, ask anyone who met me at SCC last month. This was a truly shitty remark to have made towards me, and I resent the implication more than you know.

[Zenith]

Thinking she is a postal worker. You might want to let it roll and call it a day with her.

Thanks, I needed the laugh...lol

Yeah Hope here I am on this very board clearly uncomfortable and not at all having a great time....with a CD'er....:eek:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=165672&d=1317490590

[Starling]

Kate, you're a bully. This place is full of people who are dealing with an existential problem, which you are certain you have perfectly solved for yourself, so it "entertains" you to watch the plebes say stupid things and make rookie mistakes, and then get all upset when you slam them. You're often right on the ideas, but your heart is in the wrong place, you see. Lots of us here share your belief that SRS makes a unique difference, but you're the only one with a vagina that is such a dick about it.

:straightface: Lallie

[Sharon]

Sigh..., another thread bites the dust.

I'm not preaching this time -- I'm just too tired of the outright obnoxious things being posted here.

Okay, one thing: I find it "funny" that some pre- or non-ops who cry at what some post-ops write are quite at ease with tossing their own ignorant insults back at them.


I am sure you have lots of black friends and gay friends too! I bet you even let them in your house! The ones who are really black, and the ones who are really gay I mean.

And this little bit is downright obnoxious.


Did I mention this thread is kaput?