Tough, Devil's Advocate type questions for T-girls

[Violetgray]

Hello all, just a brief thought exercise, thought I might pose some questions that anyone who feels so inclined might answer. Though I do have opinions on these things, I'm trying to be as neutral as possible, and focus on the asking, rather than the answering. My goal is not to offend I just want to see other perspectives on these issues.

1.) Conditional sexuality. Is it real? I see many on here saying "I'm usually straight, only bi when dressed." That begs the question:

If someone can be straight in one situation and bi the next, does that mean the sexual preference is a choice? Or does the satisfaction not have anything to do with the "man" in the equation at all, his presence being there to fulfill the fantasy of the total female role?

2.) Many TS's try very hard to integrate fully into society in their new roles. For the most part they wish to be seen as women, not men in women's clothing (this is for MtF TS's). In other words they want normal lives. But a group of trans persons together is like a chain: It's only as strong as its weakest link. If one person is readable that will cause people to look at everyone else in her group, too. That can lead to glances and smirks that can make us all a bit insecure, public ridicule, or worse, violence.So:

Is a trans woman who values blending in highly justified in refusing to be seen in public with her less-passable sisters?

3.) I personally know two people who are identical twins (in other words, this is not a hypothetical situation.) One has always been a woman, the other is a trans-man who now lives full time as male. He is on testosterone and has already had the top surgery. People often talk about nature vs. nurture when it comes to transsexuality, so can we make any determinations based on this case?

It cannot be genetic in this case because the twins are identical. It cannot be nurture either because They had the exact same parents, the exact same upbringing. So? What do you think happened?

4.)
Trans-abled?

There are people who claim to have what they call Body Integrity Disorder, people who feel the need to pretend to be handicapped, or eventually to handicap themselves. Some pretend to be deaf, blind, paralyzed, or even to have A.I.D.S. They feel the need to interact and been seen to the world as handicapped. They make many claims that will sound familiar. "this is a NEED." "I've always felt the need to get rid of this leg, I hate it."

Many critics of transsexuality like to draw comparisons between the two groups, but is wanting different parts really the same thing as wanting certain parts to not be there, or to not work?

Is there any argument made against trans-abled people that cannot be made against transgendered individuals by extension?

If someone wants surgery to have an arm or leg removed, should they be allowed? Is it a case of someone feeling more complete through this alteration, or is it drastic mental illness?

Eagerly await your responses! :-)

[Kathi Lake]

Wow! Thanks for the toughies, girl!

My answer to number one is a definite No. There is no such thing as 'conditional sexuality' where you are heterosexual when dressed as a male, but homosexual when dressed as a female. There is only 'conditional honesty' in that you allow yourself the freedom to choose when dressed. In reality, you have that same freedom to choose whether you're dressed or not.

Number two, I can't answer as I'm not a TS. However, that does seem to be the pattern that I have seen in life.

Number three is not only nature and nurture, but choice as well. Yes, we are who we are due to who we were. Different experiences - even for identical twins - equals different outcomes.

As for number four, I did know someone years ago on AOL that was both a crossdresser and a sufferer of BID. At one point they had indeed talked of amputation. I lost track of this person, but wonder what happened. Should a doctor remove a healthy limb? That is a gray area where "Do no harm" also begs the question on harming the body if you do vs. harming the mind if you don't. I do not have an answer for this.

Kathi

[Sophie_C]

Q: 1.) Conditional sexuality. Is it real? I see many on here saying "I'm usually straight, only bi when dressed." That begs the question:

If someone can be straight in one situation and bi the next, does that mean the sexual preference is a choice? Or does the satisfaction not have anything to do with the "man" in the equation at all, his presence being there to fulfill the fantasy of the total female role?

A: Ok, I see a few different and not inconsistent ways that explain it and complement each other.

First, being completely un-PC, I believe there's a lot more bi people out there than allow themselves to be (including those identifying as gay *shock*). They sort of put a wall up and never address it... that us until one transitions and tears every wall down. Then the truth naturally shows itself.

Second, people too often look at sexuality like it's in a bubble, which is just garbage. Sexuality is from a perspective and interactive with another person (or people). So, if your perspective is not the same as it was, the experience is entirely different.

I think everyone on the planet would agree a gay man on a date with another man has a completely different experience than a woman being on a date with a man, no? A GG told me (IRL - and remember I am in the closet) that sexuality for her seemed to be much more about the interplay between herself and a man, and not just raw attraction, like men have towards women. I believe the world opened for trans women is at least similar to that, so everything is completely different, likewise.

Third, I ask you - how much of dating and relationships don't have some element of hoping, dreaming or wishing? Don't both women and men get caught up in the moment? I don't really see that much different than any "fantasy" someone could describe it as.

Now that being said, I think labeling things doesn't help any one any bit. It makes people feel they have to fit in a box, fulfill expectations, and often not be themselves. It's like what Scarlet Johansson said in Vicky Cristina Barcelona "I see no reason to label everything. I'm me, you know"

Q: 2.) Many TS's try very hard to integrate fully into society in their new roles. For the most part they wish to be seen as women, not men in women's clothing (this is for MtF TS's). In other words they want normal lives. But a group of trans persons together is like a chain: It's only as strong as its weakest link. If one person is readable that will cause people to look at everyone else in her group, too. That can lead to glances and smirks that can make us all a bit insecure, public ridicule, or worse, violence.So:

Is a trans woman who values blending in highly justified in refusing to be seen in public with her less-passable sisters?

A: I think every person has the right to be around whoever they want to and has no obligation to be around anyone they'd rather not. This goes beyond this scenario. But, if someone transitions and is living the life they've dreamed of, isn't it selfish to expect them to drop that just to give you some moral support or companionship?

Q: 3.) I personally know two people who are identical twins (in other words, this is not a hypothetical situation.) One has always been a woman, the other is a trans-man who now lives full time as male. He is on testosterone and has already had the top surgery. People often talk about nature vs. nurture when it comes to transsexuality, so can we make any determinations based on this case?

It cannot be genetic in this case because the twins are identical. It cannot be nurture either because They had the exact same parents, the exact same upbringing. So? What do you think happened?

A. There have been various explanations, whether it's hormones released under duress in the womb, or others. Have you ever considered the two could have been simply on the edge, genetically, and one chose one path while another chose another? Also, there is tremendous social pressure which would be different for the two as they would typically have different friends. The social aspect is a large part of why I haven't, myself. Also, don't forget there have been a number of identical twins who have both actually transitioned.


Q: 4.) Trans-abled?

There are people who claim to have what they call Body Integrity Disorder, people who feel the need to pretend to be handicapped, or eventually to handicap themselves. Some pretend to be deaf, blind, paralyzed, or even to have A.I.D.S. They feel the need to interact and been seen to the world as handicapped. They make many claims that will sound familiar. "this is a NEED." "I've always felt the need to get rid of this leg, I hate it."

Many critics of transsexuality like to draw comparisons between the two groups, but is wanting different parts really the same thing as wanting certain parts to not be there, or to not work?

Is there any argument made against trans-abled people that cannot be made against transgendered individuals by extension?

If someone wants surgery to have an arm or leg removed, should they be allowed? Is it a case of someone feeling more complete through this alteration, or is it drastic mental

Ok, a few questions there.

A: I don't think it's the same at all. I am a person who has know they were transgender since I was 12 or so, and I'm rather older than that. Looking back, my behavior, body language, interests, etc - always fell into a typical range of female norms. Know that I wasn't raised around many women at all, scorned for feminine behavior and even my grade school class was coincidentally 7/8th guys. This all existed prior to any sort of understanding of it. I didn't even necessarily 'dream' of becoming a girl. I was just rather naturally feminine. Now, my whole life I have masked that. Did anything here have to do with body parts? No.

To me, transitioning has more to do with living as myself in balance than body alterations. I don't have a compulsion to have a vagina. I think it could eventually make everything wrapped up, but just living as myself would be the most fundamental thing there is. Do the "amputee wannabees" feel ok enough just rolling around in a wheelchair? No. Do they feel a compulsion to change their bodies they can't get rid of? Yes.

But, what better explains this are people that are NOT trans. There is a WIDE range of gender identity people exhibit without transitioning one bit, from the toughest "Dykes on Bikes" to femme gay boys, to tomboys, to Andrej Pejic. Trans people are just the deep end of the pool, so to speak.

Lastly, for the "amputee wannabees", I say let them do what they want to - so long as they pay for everything (and for the rest of their lives - we aren't going to pay for their scooters after they run out of money later, for example). I do get a serious impression they have a compulsive disorder which eventually will find a treatment and that should continue to be researched, but until then, let them hack off whatever they want. I've got better things to do with my life than to concern myself with them.

[sanderlay]

First... About me:
I'm a Two-Sprited person or some times called a Bi-gender. I express both the feminine and masculine. My attire can be a mix but I prefer more feminine attire at present. I love skirts!

Now... The questions...


1.) Conditional sexuality. Is it real? I see many on here saying "I'm usually straight, only bi when dressed." That begs the question:

If someone can be straight in one situation and bi the next, does that mean the sexual preference is a choice? Or does the satisfaction not have anything to do with the "man" in the equation at all, his presence being there to fulfill the fantasy of the total female role?

The clothes make no difference from who I am and who I'm attracted to. I'm attracted to females which would make me heterosexual. But I might have some bi curiosity but have never been able to act on this. I do like to think out side the box.


2.) Many TS's try very hard to integrate fully into society in their new roles. For the most part they wish to be seen as women, not men in women's clothing (this is for MtF TS's). In other words they want normal lives. But a group of trans persons together is like a chain: It's only as strong as its weakest link. If one person is readable that will cause people to look at everyone else in her group, too. That can lead to glances and smirks that can make us all a bit insecure, public ridicule, or worse, violence.So:

Is a trans woman who values blending in highly justified in refusing to be seen in public with her less-passable sisters?

I don't care if you pass or not. I see you as a person... and your heart. I find a confident, positive and secure person very attractive.

When I go out I do see those eyes that stare and then suddenly look away. I see the smirks and then I see those big smiles and thumbs up. But I hold my head up and confidently go on. Life is to short to worry about how other people perceive or think of me. I do dream of a world where each of us can be ourselves without ridicule or bias.

If you don't like how I look or how others might perceive you with me then don't invite me to come along. I'll just go about my own business and leave you to yours.


3.) I personally know two people who are identical twins (in other words, this is not a hypothetical situation.) One has always been a woman, the other is a trans-man who now lives full time as male. He is on testosterone and has already had the top surgery. People often talk about nature vs. nurture when it comes to transsexuality, so can we make any determinations based on this case?

This is an interesting situation and we do need to study this. But there is not enough data to draw conclusions. There is still so much we do not know so I think drawing conclusions would be inaccurate view of the data for now.


4.)
Trans-abled?

There are people who claim to have what they call Body Integrity Disorder, people who feel the need to pretend to be handicapped, or eventually to handicap themselves. Some pretend to be deaf, blind, paralyzed, or even to have A.I.D.S. They feel the need to interact and been seen to the world as handicapped. They make many claims that will sound familiar. "this is a NEED." "I've always felt the need to get rid of this leg, I hate it."

I'm not familiar with this so I do not know. But... and this is unrelated... I think all humans need to feel loved, needed and useful in some way.

[RachelOKC]

1.) If someone can be straight in one situation and bi the next, does that mean the sexual preference is a choice? Or does the satisfaction not have anything to do with the "man" in the equation at all, his presence being there to fulfill the fantasy of the total female role?

I don't think sexual preference is the choice, how one acts upon it is. I personally think it's playing semantics to apply different labels of one's sexuality depending on the circumstances. You are still you no matter how you're dressed. If you're sexually attracted to males and females...you're bi. How hard is that? I fail to see a need to construct some cockeyed logic of when what labels apply. I wonder if that comes out of shame or a form homophobia.

2.) Is a trans woman who values blending in highly justified in refusing to be seen in public with her less-passable sisters?

She can make such choices as she wishes, but she won't keep many friends that way. If you're ashamed about who a friend is, then maybe both you and your friend have the wrong friend.

3.) I personally know two people who are identical twins (in other words, this is not a hypothetical situation.) One has always been a woman, the other is a trans-man who now lives full time as male. He is on testosterone and has already had the top surgery. People often talk about nature vs. nurture when it comes to transsexuality, so can we make any determinations based on this case? It cannot be genetic in this case because the twins are identical. It cannot be nurture either because They had the exact same parents, the exact same upbringing. So? What do you think happened?

While I won't dismiss nurture claims out of hand I also don't find them very credible. The David Reimer (also a twin) case is quite eyebrow raising with regards to nature v. nurture.

The FTM twin case makes for an interesting anecdote but not proof. I wouldn't dismiss genetics out of hand, because I think it is possible that there could be genetic predisposition that *may* result - but not certainly - in an actual condition (I'd bet there's science on this). It also may not be a genetic cause, but it still certainly could be a natural cause that may affect one twin and not the other through pure chance.

My own sister is intersexed, and I am transgender. Coincidence? Linked? Who knows? Interesting anecdote certainly, but also proof of nothing.

4.) Trans-abled?

There are people who claim to have what they call Body Integrity Disorder, people who feel the need to pretend to be handicapped, or eventually to handicap themselves. Some pretend to be deaf, blind, paralyzed, or even to have A.I.D.S. They feel the need to interact and been seen to the world as handicapped. They make many claims that will sound familiar. "this is a NEED." "I've always felt the need to get rid of this leg, I hate it."

Many critics of transsexuality like to draw comparisons between the two groups, but is wanting different parts really the same thing as wanting certain parts to not be there, or to not work?

Is there any argument made against trans-abled people that cannot be made against transgendered individuals by extension?

If someone wants surgery to have an arm or leg removed, should they be allowed? Is it a case of someone feeling more complete through this alteration, or is it drastic mental illness?

I think it's very easy to look at the BIID people with contempt, when they need to be viewed with sympathy and concern. This is a real disorder and ethical concerns are considerable, just as they are with transgender transition and surgeries. Just as GRS for transsexuals is frequently a major step toward reaching that feeling of "completeness" or "unity", amputation may be needed for some BIID people who don't succeed with other treatment methods. One would hope that there are standards of care that keeps people from making a really bad choice - it's easy to find transpeople who regret what they've done, but there's far more who have been quite happy. I'm sure that there are similar stories in the BIID community.

I certainly won't be the one to hurl condemnation and decree that their needs are unpermissable.

[Sophie86]

1.) Conditional sexuality. Is it real? I see many on here saying "I'm usually straight, only bi when dressed." That begs the question:

If someone can be straight in one situation and bi the next, does that mean the sexual preference is a choice? Or does the satisfaction not have anything to do with the "man" in the equation at all, his presence being there to fulfill the fantasy of the total female role?

Personally, I believe that sexual orientation is a choice, or rather it's based on values formed in early childhood. I don't believe psychiatrists are able to undo those choices, nor do I think it's necessary or desirable to undo them. Homosexuality (or bisexuality) is not something that needs to be "fixed".

As for the conditional sexuality, I would say the person is always bi, but will only act on it when dressed.




2.) Many TS's try very hard to integrate fully into society in their new roles. For the most part they wish to be seen as women, not men in women's clothing (this is for MtF TS's). In other words they want normal lives. But a group of trans persons together is like a chain: It's only as strong as its weakest link. If one person is readable that will cause people to look at everyone else in her group, too. That can lead to glances and smirks that can make us all a bit insecure, public ridicule, or worse, violence.So:

Is a trans woman who values blending in highly justified in refusing to be seen in public with her less-passable sisters?

This isn't just a question of vanity. Transsexuals are subject to a lot of discrimination, so I don't see this as a slam dunk. The answer could be very different depending on circumstances.


3.) I personally know two people who are identical twins (in other words, this is not a hypothetical situation.) One has always been a woman, the other is a trans-man who now lives full time as male. He is on testosterone and has already had the top surgery. People often talk about nature vs. nurture when it comes to transsexuality, so can we make any determinations based on this case?

It cannot be genetic in this case because the twins are identical. It cannot be nurture either because They had the exact same parents, the exact same upbringing. So? What do you think happened?

Free will.


4.)
Trans-abled?

There are people who claim to have what they call Body Integrity Disorder, people who feel the need to pretend to be handicapped, or eventually to handicap themselves. Some pretend to be deaf, blind, paralyzed, or even to have A.I.D.S. They feel the need to interact and been seen to the world as handicapped. They make many claims that will sound familiar. "this is a NEED." "I've always felt the need to get rid of this leg, I hate it."

Many critics of transsexuality like to draw comparisons between the two groups, but is wanting different parts really the same thing as wanting certain parts to not be there, or to not work?

Is there any argument made against trans-abled people that cannot be made against transgendered individuals by extension?

If someone wants surgery to have an arm or leg removed, should they be allowed? Is it a case of someone feeling more complete through this alteration, or is it drastic mental illness?

It is a drastic mental illness. If I were a doctor, I would never perform such a surgery. I would always refer the patient to a psychiatrist.

[LeaP]

1) There's a portion of the population that is flexible regarding sexuality. Circumstances can trigger different responses, not just due to opportunity, but because one can be emotionally and psychologically prepared. Still, I believe that basic orientation is inborn.

2) Not justified. Alternatively, they are not friends. What if the CDer runs into one or more of the unpassables casually? Run? Refuse to speak or acknowledge?

3) Nature, nurture, choice. Or perhaps orientation, circumstances, and triggers per my earlier comment. Another response referred to prenatal stress, which would put things into the nature category. I've read of a number of cases of identical twins where there were gender issues. Also cases where opposite-sex fraternal twins were both TS and transitioned! Perhaps prenatal stress is more common with multiple births. That makes intuitive sense, though I have no evidence.

4) The "transabled" question was interesting because I've never heard it asked in that way (as opposed to other pathologies like, say, OCD). My answer is that it's an unlikely motivation, because it is highly unlikely to trigger the desired sympathy reaction. If anything, it would tend to isolate the person, which is the last thing they want.

Lea

[Mikaela]

1. Yes, Conditional Sexuality is real, but not. :D Clothing isn't the cause, Clothing is the catalyst (in the chemistry sense).
I think it is latent bi/homosexuality that's been repressed to the point that it only finds self-acceptance when dressed, OR, it's as you said, part of the fantasy of being a female.

2. Yes. In fact, as a CD, I've turned down non-TG event outings for this very reason. There are too many repercussions for being outed.

3. I know of a pair of identical twins. Twin A - was a crossdresser and stopped when he got married. Twin B is now Transitioning.
Is it a question of degrees? Is it a question of acceptance? Would Twin A have transitioned if he was single and had the support Twin B does?
Something can be biological and not be genetic, per se.

4. Not sure about this one, but I recently read Machine Man and thought it was a fun read. :D

[Sally24]

Geez, why don't you pick some hard questions! lol

#1 - I think sexuality and attraction are a lot more complicated than most people think. I think its even possible for a hetero man to be attracted to the right guy at the right time. I do think that who you CAN like is hard wires into your brain. It's up to you to make your own rules to live by.

#2 - As Kathy said, this happens in all sorts of circumstances for all sorts of reasons. If these "less attractive" sisters are merely acquaintances then you have no obligation to them. If these other women are truly friends its quite another thing. Friends don't treat each other badly. I have some that are a little loud or can be obnoxious but I don't refuse to be seen with them. You have to decide if you are the center of the universe or do your friends matter.

#3 - In the case of the twins you are wrong on both counts. They were only identical when that first cluster of cells split into two clusters. After that mutation and variation can occur. They might get very different hormones while in the womb. Also, just because you live in the same house does not mean your life is the same. Parents can treat 2 quite different.