Is it possible to reach Nirvana?

[melissacd]

Long ago, in a memory far far away, I accidentally revealed my feminine side to my partner of many years. At first I was scared, then I was relieved. I thought to myself, well the cat is out of the bag so I may as well just be open and honest about my cross dressing and my cross dressing desires. I was sure that love would carry the day. I was wrong.

Instead of confusion and questions to be answered, I received anger like I had never seen before. I was confronted by total non-acceptance, total shock and total humiliation. It was an insurmountable wall of emotion. Try as I might I could find no doorway through this wall. All of my feminine treasures were packed up and thrown into the garbage. I was read the riot act and told to cease and desist immediately. In embarrassment, guilt and sadness, I tucked my tail between my legs and crawled into a corner.

For almost a year after that life in hell would probably have been more enjoyable.

It is many years later and my wife and I are still together and for the most part the marriage is good. We have the normal ups and downs of any couple but for the most part it is good. It is comfortable.

Over the years, however, there has always been that nagging voice inside, that part of me that wants to get out. I have had a few secretive dress ups and have almost been caught a second time and now, with great sadness, have stopped dressing completely.

I have spent a great deal of time reflecting on all of this and struggle day to day trying to keep that side of me inside. I want to be a good husband and I want to have an open communicative marriage with the person I have chosen to be my life partner and yet there is this nagging inside. Nagging, nagging, nagging. It tugs at my soul daily.

There is a constant battle inside me between the part of me that wants to be a good partner and the part of me that wants to be me. There is a part of me that is resentful of having to hold/hide this part inside.

Tamara asked a question recently about why we hide this from our spouses. I gave a brief answer, but I have reflected on this more. While I am not currently dressing, I think about cross dressing constantly. While I am thinking about cross dressing constantly and I am not dressing I am still in effect hiding this from my spouse.

Why do I hide this? Because I love my wife, I want her in my life and I know from past experience that this is something she could not accept. The catch 22 is because I obsess about this it strains the relationship, makes it so much less than it could be. It is quite the dilema. She knows and yet she does not know. She believes that telling me to stop makes it so. If I try and tell her again will she receive it better? If I tell her again will she reject me again? Will she leave this time? These are difficult questions to answer.

I have followed many stories of others here and revelled in their trials and tribulations. Some of these have been total failures and relationships have ended. Others have been tough but new and better beginnings. All have been learning experiences for them and for me.

So here I stand at a precipice. I struggle with these demons that tell me that I am being unfaithful to my life partner just for thinking these thoughts, just for typing these words. And you know what, I am!

Cross dressing is not an illness and cannot be cured. Life partners are hard to find and hard work to keep. Being true to yourself is the only way to real happiness. Allowing others to force you not to be true to yourself is a travesty, builds resentment and erodes the soul. Love is understanding and acceptance. There is much paradox here. If I try to bring this up again, will I get the same result? Will I get a more positive result? Will it bring an end or a new beginning or both?

I have been doing much reading lately in the areas of Budhism. Karma, actions and consequence that span lifetimes, are a pivotol concept in that belief system. This raises questions to me about the rightness of my desire to cross dress (because desires bring suffering) and the actions in another lifetime that would lead me to need to go down this path. I am sure that there are lessons that I am to learn here that are meant to help balance previous actions in previous lifetimes and teach me important things.

Is there Nirvana? I am not sure, but based on what is happening this time around there is much to deal with and I am pretty sure that I am not close to reaching that yet. In the meantime, I struggle to reach resolution. Almost a decade and this eats away at me. How can one be true to one's love if one cannot be true to oneself? How can one take the chance of being true to oneself if it comes at a cost of losing one's love?

I have posted many posts in the past that showed great anger and I have said perhaps rather nasty things about my life partner. That was the resentment speaking. Getting that out of my system at least helped me come face to face with my demons and allowed me to actually see that I was falling out of love with the only one I really love. I guess that is what makes this all so difficult. How can one who really loves you reject a very essential part of who you are? That is part of the struggle.

Having written those things has also helped me to think this through and realize what a wonderful wife I have. At the point of realization dare I risk that for the sake of my other side? A part of me says I have to be true to myself and another part of myself says that to do so would be selfish and uncaring and yet another part of myself says that I cannot live this lie forever.

So have I resolved anything through this diatribe? I don't know, however, perhaps by getting these words out I am one step closer to resolution. One step closer to happiness. Who knows...

[uknowhoo]

Wow, Melissa. I can certainly relate to your situation. Your monologue was quite compelling. Of course, no one else can know the right path for you, but hopefully your having expressed your feelings here will help you and others among us in finding our way. Best wishes for you and your wife. Hugs, Tammi

[Jacqui]

"Over the years, however, there has always been that nagging voice inside, that part of me that wants to get out."

That nagging voice is like the pressure building up in a teapot.
If the teapot didn't have a whistle that let out the steam, it would most likely blow up.
On the one side, the fact that you can't discuss this with your wife is building up pressure inside you. This pressure is what causes anger, displacement of emotions, and a sort of PMS-state-walking on egg shells (I wish I knew for sure!). It's like you'll snap at anything because what you really want to do is cd or talk about it.
On the other side, the fact that you wrote such an honest and well thought-out description of your feeling is, in itself, a relief of pressure within you. And sharing it with others in this forum and getting feedback will hopefully disperse the pressure somewhat.
I think I can talk from experience because I am in a similar situation, only I don't think my wife knows and I know that I can't tell her. There are alot of people here who are lucky enough to have spouses that have or could accept this...
then there are others like us who are stuck and just crave to get off the treadmill so that we can release the side of ourselves that we yearn to be/see.
If you figure out the answer be sure to pm me.

Good luck,

Jacqui

[KatieZ]

I have been doing much reading lately in the areas of Budhism. Karma, actions and consequence that span lifetimes, are a pivotol concept in that belief system. This raises questions to me about the rightness of my desire to cross dress (because desires bring suffering) and the actions in another lifetime that would lead me to need to go down this path. I am sure that there are lessons that I am to learn here that are meant to help balance previous actions in previous lifetimes and teach me important things.

Is there Nirvana? I am not sure, but based on what is happening this time around there is much to deal with and I am pretty sure that I am not close to reaching that yet. In the meantime, I struggle to reach resolution. Almost a decade and this eats away at me. How can one be true to one's love if one cannot be true to oneself? How can one take the chance of being true to oneself if it comes at a cost of losing one's love?



Well you understand the principles of karma. And you are getting a handle on eastern philosophies. Do you know how astrology relates to all of that? I learned astrology many years ago for the same reasons that you are questioning now. I found, in my own chart, what makes me tick. I have studied it for years but was never sure I was reading it without some sort of bias. I eventually contacted a group of professional counselor/astrologers that walked me through my chart and indeed confirmed what I always thought. I am here to learn a lesson in this life as we all are. In my particular chart paying back Karma was not the issue. Learning to be me and expressing my feminine side is my lesson this time. Life has just recently changed to allow me to persue that lesson. I'm still struggleing with old ideas and such but I am moving ahead.

My point here is that not everyone that is a CDer is doing it for the same reasons. You can, if you believe in astrology, seek out a qualified evolutionary astrologer/counselor and set up a session. Counselors of this type are expensive and an initial chart and reading is going to cost about $150-$200 and it will most likeky take a few more sessions to get through the whole thing.

Jeffery Wolfe Green was the one that discovered evolutionary astrology and along with Steven Forrest they taught it to a good many people that are practicing counselors today. You can find them with a web search of evolutionary astrologer/counselor.

This is an expensive way to go but if you know how accurate astrology really is when it is based on your own birth chart (and not that stupid crap in the daily paper) you will find your answer.

Hugs

[TGMarla]

Well, that's an interesting post. Here's my input, for what it's worth. We all have some balance of the Yin and the Yang in us. I believe I was born with about a 50-50 balance between the two. I cannot be totally upfront with my wife, either. All my life I have studied existentialism and transcendentalism, but these put forth ideas that she simply does not understand and is not particularly interested in. When one grows spiritually to the point that he or she gains a broader understanding of the universe and the life force within it, one also grows beyond the simple boundaries of the male and the female. One cannot exist without the other. It is only when a balance between the two is achieved that enlightenment can happen.

Your question, can there be a nirvana for you, is not an easy one. But if you boil it down, the road that leads to the answer is simple. As long as you deny yourself, there can be no nirvana. Now, since I hide this part of myself from the world around me, others can easily point out that I cannot achieve this myself. And they are right on one level. but they are not right on another level. My male and female personas are mine and are with me always. I act out my female persona as often as my circumstances allow. I think in terms of both personas at all times. I don't need to show myself to everyone in my world in order to keep my balance between the two.

My wife is unaccepting. Yet she has stated in the past, after she found out, that she understood why I kept it all secret from her. I don't keep it secret from her and the rest of the world out of my own shame. I do so because the rest of the world around me has not grown to the point that they can understand that both the male and the female are necessary for the universe to exist. And by this, I mean both the male and the female present in each of us.

You supress your urge to dress up. This is what causes your conflict. If you had any outlet for these urges, such as at least dressing up in secret, which would be far better than nothing, you would not be in such mental torment all the time. Sure, there might be feelings of guilt involved, but this is not really necessary. I do not feel guilty about dressing in secret behind my wife's back. The reason for this is that if she knew, she would be very upset. She would be upset because she lacks the understanding of the balance that must exist in each of us and in the universe between the male and female in each of us.

Those who claim to be exclusively male or female are really in denial. Often it is a denial borne of ignorance. I do not mean this as an insult, merely a statement of fact. They simply are unaware that there is a presence of both in all of us. You are attempting to supress a part of yourself that has awakened and will not be put back to sleep. Nor should it. You have grown, and your SO has not. This is not necessarily her fault. Yet it is not necessarily your job to enlighten her. Unfortunately, SO's are often not the people with whom we can be most open. It is possible that any attempt you make to enlighten her to this could end in disaster for both of you. I am in the same predicament.

I want to get all dressed up and go out somewhere. If my wife knew that I were to do this, she would not be understanding at all. she would be hurt, and our relationship, which is at the moment rather good, would suffer a great deal. So until I know I can do it without her knowledge, I dress by myself and for myself. And I am somewhat, but not completely, content with that.

So what all this boils down to is this: If you must dress, do so. Don't tell your wife if you are convinced that it will hurt you both. Be very careful about it, and remember to cross your T's and dot your I's when you put everything away and clean up. Many of us get caught because we are careless. I have been careless in the past as well. Don't get caught up in guilt. Remember, you are not hiding it from her out of choice, but out of a necessity that she has put in place. Don't let it rule your life, but enjoy the time you are able to spend as a lady. I know this flies in the face of most of the conventional "wisdom" you often hear from crossdressers about being up front and honest, but we all really know that there is no mold that fits all situations.

You go, girl! I'm in your corner.

Sincerely,
Marla

[melissacd]

I am appreciative of all comments so far. There is much wisdom, kindess and support in all of your words. In pondering this situation out loud it appears that what I have said is resonating with others. I am thankful that others can relate to me on this in such a loving and caring way.

I am in agreement with a very important statement that Marla just made. I am totally convinced that we are all made of both masculine and feminine components. Most don't realize or are not mature enough to appreciate this. Some of us have awakened to this wonderful gift.

While we struggle with this issue, our struggle helps us grow. As long as we can be reflective and introspective we will learn and somehow figure enough out to make the right choices. I agree that keeping this bottled up inside is only harmful and it is nice to have this place to vent pressure into.

Thanks to all of you who have commented, shown your support and related your own thoughts. You are all good friends and sisters.

Huggs
Melissa

[Debbie Kong]

Tamara asked a question recently about why we hide this from our spouses. I gave a brief answer, but I have reflected on this more. While I am not currently dressing, I think about cross dressing constantly. While I am thinking about cross dressing constantly and I am not dressing I am still in effect hiding this from my spouse.

Hello Melissa

You are indeed hiding your crossdressing just by thinking of it so you might as well be doing it. If you're thinking of it and dreaming of it you truly are leading a hidden life so why not indulge once in awhile clandestinely. The release of all of that pent up pressure will help you. Think of it as therapeutic. Better than any counselling. Pamper yourself once in awhile and you'll lead a happier life.

And, as you already know, you have a safe place to go. My place. You're still invited.

Best wishes

Debbie

[christine55]

Really feel for you and pray for you that you can find a resolution for such a dilemma.
As has been said by others you cant blame your wife. How would I feel If I was married to a beautiful girl and she started to become or act like a guy. I am not sure I would be so happy. As a cd I am sure I would enjoy trading spaces, but if I were not cd I don't think I would be too happy.
Not to put you down because it is so hard for us to share our cd'ing with others especially if in love with someone and sharing may mean losing that person but I see from your post the extreme importance of sharing this part of ourselves with anyone we are thinking of marrying. Both for our sake and theirs.
Best Wishes
Christine

[melissacd]

Debbie,

I agree that not dressing and yet obsessing over this is not really any different from hiding. I am not dressing but in my mind I am still a cross dresser. That is a big part of the struggle. It is easy to rationalize that because we are not dressing (compliance with my wife's demand to stop) the mere fact that we think about it and of course participate in these types of forums is showing that the cross dressing is still there, it has just morphed into another form. It is so easy to kid ourselves that by not doing something that in fact we are being faithful and true. You are right in that if I continually think about this I may as well be doing it. It makes so much sense.

I have seen many say that they can quit if their loved one asks them to. I can certainly understand the notion of putting one's relationship above the apparent slefish nature of cross dressing. I tried to do that and now I know that I cannot. I wish more power to those who are also trying to honour their wive's request.

There is the part of me though that also says that if someone loves you as much as they say they do then they will be open to all of who you are. At the time she asked me to stop I felt shamed and guilty enough about it to try. Rather, I should have stood my ground, in a compassionate and caring way, but stood my ground nonetheless. After so many years, her thinking that it is a closed chapter and me seething inside because it never will be, I have to wrestle with this everyday. I look at pictures of others and wish I could be that person, I read stories of supportive spouses and wish that mine could be as well.

Many years have past since the discovery and the cease and desist order. We have never talked about it since. It feels like an open wound that will never heal and I know that it is taking a toll on me mentally and physically.

I have often considered counseling, at least for myself, however, if my wife ever found out why I was seeking counseling (and I am not good at not telling the truth when asked) she would hit the roof. I am sure of it. So I do not even see counseling as an option unless I am prepared to risk all.

Christine,

Thanks for your warm thoughts. It is hard, hard, hard. I hope that I find some way to solve this some day too. You are right in that I cannot blame my wife for how she feels. I hope and pray that some day she will mature to the point where she can accept this. The dilema is that she may have reached a point where she can, but I am afraid to ask in case the fury pours forward once again. I want to be open and honest with her. I want to not keep this hidden. I want to be able to do this with her acceptance and approval, but I have no control over these things.

I realize that we ultimately all have choices. We all have the choice to take this path or that path and accept whatever consequences come our way. I tried the hiding path and that was painful, I tried the quitting path and that has been equally painful...I am running out of paths.

Thanks for all of your warm support.

Huggs
Melissa

[Sarahgurl371]

You all have obviously put much thought into life and the meaning of it. I think most of us have. I envy the ones who don't feel it necessary, and are just happy to be themselves and enjoy the day. I too have thought of all the religious and philosophical aspects about CDs. I believe that love can conquer all, love is sacrfice, love is acceptance. I believe in open and honest communication between partners. I couldn't hide this from her any more. I have stopped dressing for her sake in the past, and like others, I think about it always. My wife compared me CDing to my commiting adultery. Is it adultery to think about having an affair? Is it hiding to think about CDing and not tell her. If she has on objection to it, she has the right to knoe that it exists in my mind. I have tried education, compromise, everything I could muster. I am a CD and I also enjoy it, it is important in my life, I need her to love and accept all of me. If she can't, maybe she is not the one. I want so badly to be with the one. I thought I found her, If the person that knows me better than anyone else in the world, the person I have beared my soul to, cannot accept me, Can she be the one?

I am very conflicted as well about being the best husband I can be, the best partner, the best friend. While Ihate that this has caused her pain and problems in our marraige, I want her to be my best friend. I don't want to be friends with someone who cannot, or though thier narrow view of the world, will not be my friend.

I don't have any answers, only questions. They have lead me here, on the path towards self acceptance. Once I accept and love myself, how can I share my life with someone who can't?

[melissacd]

Your and my (and many others) path in life seems quite similar. We have reached a point where we are starting to accept a very important part of who we are and now we are struggling with the polarity of being a good spouse with someone who cannot accept us.

I love my wife as I see that you love yours. I want my wife to be my best friend in all things as I am sure that most wives want of us. I see nothing but positives for a relationship where we are ourselves and do not hide things, yet how can we make someone be open to a concept that they abhor. They say they love us and yet how can that be if they cannot accept the whole package. It is perplexing, confusing.

It is a great irony of life for which I have no answers. Our wives do not want us to have these hidden lives and yet are hurt, threatened, disgusted and insulted by our lack of trust and faith in them and when we do come forward we are stomped into the ground and made to feel sick, perverted, abnormal. It took me many years to get over that humiliation and the reaction just drove me back underground. Instead of making things better and more open it shut me down. How crazy is that!

So your question is a good one..."Once I accept and love myself, how can I share my life with someone who can't?" and it is a question that many of us are trying to figure out...what cost are we prepared to pay in the name of love?

Thanks for your input on this subject that is near and dear to my heart.

Huggs
Melissa

[robinLynn]

Wow, Melissa. I can certainly relate to your situation. Your monologue was quite compelling. Of course, no one else can know the right path for you, but hopefully your having expressed your feelings here will help you and others among us in finding our way. Best wishes for you and your wife. Hugs, Tammi
i agree with tammi

[Dragster]

Melissa,
I read your posts with sadness, and saw many parallels with my own situation. About 15 years ago, after 20 years of marriage, I told my wife that I enjoyed wearing female clothes (her clothes, but knowing they were hers added to the excitement for me, it was another connection with the woman I loved). I got a similar reaction to yours. She only wanted a real man, and told me she "didn't want to know" about my dressing. I didn't promise to stop, I couldn't purge, because I had nothing of my own, and I took her words at face value, and continued (very carefully) in the closet.
Since I joined here, I took advice and bought the book "My Husband Betty" by Helen Boyd, read it, and offered it to my wife to read and then discuss with me. Well, she wasn't jumping for joy, she thought she'd seen the last of the subject 15 years ago, but reluctantly agreed to read the book, or at leaqst the first 4 chapters (my suggestion). I've avoided trying to ram it down her throat, but 6 months on, she's read 40 pages (last week) and said "I was pretty much aware of what I've read so far". I don't know whether it was a good idea to bring the subject up again or not, but like you, I'm so unhappy that there's an important part of me (important to me anyway) that we can't even talk about, let alone share with the person who has been the most important in my life for 36 years. Neither you nor I (nor anyone else here) know what the solution is, and it's probably different for each couple. I can only offer you the solace that you are not alone, and if I find the magic formula for tolerance or acceptance in whatever form, you can rest assured I'll be posting it right here.

All the best,
Tony

[Madeline_K]

Melissa,

I can only offer my shoulder to you. ::Gentle smile:: I am fortunate to have a girlfriend who understands my "quirk" as she puts it. Its in a loving way I assure you. But I know what you felt like about the teapot boiling over. When I first accepted who I was, I wasn't sure who I could trust personally in my life. It privately consumed me until...well, I think I told enough people to where the situation sort of took care of itself.

Probably hasn't been to helpful, but at least you've got a lot of sisters here.

Madeline

[melissacd]

Madeleine,

Thanks for your shoulder and thanks for your thoughts. It is very helpful to me to see that I am not alone and that my internal seething is normal. There are times when I ask myself if all of this obsessing about that hidden part of myself is something that I need to find a cure for. There are times when I see the feminine side of myself as a gift and a blessing and there are other times when I wish that I could just bury the whole thing in the backyard and be done with it.

Huggs
Melissa

[Gretchen]

Melissa,
I read your initial post yesterday and the various responses and was tempted to offer my own experience. Today, I have given the whole issue some more thought and can only tell you that some of my "closeted" situation is the same. I recently resumed dressing after a 44 year hiatus. I know that sounds incredible, but until last February I truly had no serious interest in crossdressing again. My initial experience was with my mom's lingerie stuff when I was 12-15 yrs. old. High school, dating, girlfriends, marriage/family issues, substance abuse and other life problems covered my obvious hidden desires. I truly thought for most of my life that my dressing as a teenager was just a phase that would disappear with normal dating and marriage. Not so, as we all know.
My wife and I have been married since 1968 and have enjoyed an improving marriage as the years have passed. The subject of crossdressing has appeared in our conversations via movies, etc. and she has always pretty much expressed an overpowering revulsion with it and views dressing as an abnormal perversion. I also sense she feels dressing is something that only gays engage in.
Anyway, last February my desires returned and I started where I left off with lingerie and pantyhose, just to see what pantyhose felt like, right? Nothing more, or so I thought. As you can guess, that activity has now expanded to 2-3 days per week with all the clothing items I have purchased on line and cautiously in a few stores.
I have fully accepted my love of dressing and enjoy it immensely. But I am 100% closeted by choice and am today quite comfortable with that situation. I view my activity as my own; private, personal and secret to me. I have revealed my dressing to no one except you girls in these forums, because you are understanding and accepting without judgement.
Be that as it may, my fear of being discovered is very real and I take great pains to carefully conceal my wardrobe items in areas that are not used or very obscure like the attic or an unused garage closet.
I frankly am not sure I would ever want my wife to know about my dressing. Maybe that is a facet of some remaining shame or guilt, I don't know. But I do feel that my activity is not hurting anyone. Our relationship remains strong and we enjoy a regular and healthy sex life. We have three grown children and four grandchildren. Our expanded family is stable and healthy.
Having thought about the possible damage to us, our family and our financial picture that disclosure or discovery might have, I do not want to sacrifice that just to be able to crossdress....probably in my own apartment somewhere.
I know I am probably magnifying things more than might be, but I don't have the courage or desire to risk it all.
Nevertheless, I do understand your pain at the initial discloure and your rejection and lonliness that has followed. I hope you can find a way to experience just enough of the escape and release of an occasional dressing time, even if it is only once a week or once a month.
I cannot deny my desire and will continue to take great pains to use stealth and careful concealment to be able to keep doing this superbly blissful activity.
My thoughts and best wishes are with you....
Love,
Gretchen

[mhairi]

Melissa, my heart goes out to you and your situation. As an accepting GG, I feel for you and your wife.

When you have a life with someone that you don't want to lose but have to supress a part of yourself, it's not easy. I find myself wondering how she would feel about losing you? Would she be willing to compromise to stay with you? She may have been totally unaccepting and shocked but if the chips were down, what would she do? I don't know how long you've been together but I do believe this can make a big difference in where your future path lies.

I hope things become clearer and you find a way forward.

[Sarahgurl371]

It is a great irony of life for which I have no answers. Our wives do not want us to have these hidden lives and yet are hurt, threatened, disgusted and insulted by our lack of trust and faith in them and when we do come forward we are stomped into the ground and made to feel sick, perverted, abnormal. It took me many years to get over that humiliation and the reaction just drove me back underground. Instead of making things better and more open it shut me down. How crazy is that!

Melissa

Melissa,

I too felt as though my telling my wife would actually make our marraige stronger. I thought and hoped that it would foster greater intamcy and emotional connection. It took an enormous amount of time to feel that I could trust her with my "secret". And when I told her, BAM - like you say, stomped into the ground. She says that I broke her trust in me. How can that be when it took such an enormous amount of trust in her for me to be able to tell. I wish it didn't take so long for my to get up the courage, but it did. As soon as I new what "this" was, I knew that I had to tell her, as I said she has a right to know, and I have a right to be accepted. I CANNOT CHANGE THE PAST, Lord knows I would if it were possible.

Her non acceptance, her hurtful remarks, her saying that she cannot trust me, has had a huge impact on my life. Serious anxiety, depression, all the usual. I know that she feels it as well, but like I told her, "you can walk away from me, and the majority of people would support you in doing so, but I cannot walk away, and do not wish to live a life of hiding." The guilt and shame cycle became very overwhelming, it ruled just about everyaspect of my life.

For those who feel that this is there private place in life, and are content at being closeted with thier SO, I've been down that road, and it wasn't the right choice for me. I spent an awful amount of time "putting things back just as they were found, hiding what little items I had aquired in all the best places, looking out through the curtains to make sure no one was watching me. IT BECOMES A HUGE BURDEN TO YOUR MENTAL WELL BEING. Living that way made my life miserable. I told myself that I was hurting no one, it was my secret. I found out that I was hurting someone when I decided to tell my wife. It wasn't intentional, but really, whats the difference?

Knowing what I know now about how she feels about CDing, how can I ever go back to hiding again? How can I look at myself in the mirror, if I know that I am hiding something that if she knew of would seriously affect her happiness? For me, I cannot live that way. The burden that forced me to tell her, wasn't so much the desire to dress in front of her, as it was the guilt and shame I was feeling doing it behind her back. Sure I wanted greater emotional intamacy, and a deeper communication, but the driving force in my telling her was the guilt/shame cycle, and the fear she would find out. I really sound like a coward now, because although it took tremendous courage to tell her, I was pushed to the brink by the fear that hiding my femme side created.

Just one persons thoughts. Not meant to offend anyone.

[melissacd]

Mhairi,

Thanks very much for empathizing both with me and my wife. We both feel pain. Thanks for being an accepting GG. The more of you in this world the better off this world will become.

You are right that having to suppress a part of yourself to be with the one you love is not an easy path to tread. I backed down before because I felt guilt and shame and I did not want to lose her. I honestly don't know what would have happened if I stood my ground and threatened to leave her if she did not at least try and give it some understanding. My shame overwhelmed me at the time. I felt very much in the wrong. Mind you I certainly understand her anger at having this hidden component to my life. I can appreciate a feeling of trust broken, however, after being together and in love for 14-15 years at the time I expected more willingness to understand. We have been together now for almost 23 years. I am uncertain as to whether her reaction now would be different than back then, however, I am afraid that if I open that can or worms again it may be the last time. On the other hand, there is a part of me that hopes that those years have added some level of maturity and perhaps a new openess to this. That is the big question that holds me back now from trying to cross that bridge. The fact is that this time even if she rejected it again and stayed around anyway I am not sure that I could stop anymore even if she demanded it. I have grown in my own personal acceptance over the years and hence the reason that I feel so uncomfortable now, I don't like suppressing what I know to be a normal and healthy part of me. I know that the suppression will lead to some other bad things. It already is. So where does our future path lie after being together for so long and attempting to once again deal with this - who knows.


Tammy,

Well it looks like I am not the only one who thinks that finally telling the truth should lead to a better marriage. I also see that being open about this should be able to lead to more intimacy. It should lead to being better solu mates - at least it stands to reason. Perhaps reason plays no part here.

It is very hurtful to an SO when they hear of your hidden self/life, I understand that, but it is also hurtful when someone you love and trust won't even try to understand. It makes you question their love. How true is it? You say that your wife says that you broke her trust in you and yet it seems to me that it is a two way street. What about the trust and courage required to come out about something that society still has difficulty with. That takes a lot of trust to. It is a trust broken in both directions.

My own personal reason for not saying anything at the beginning was partly because I thought I had finally quit it. I was wrong. The desire never goes away. Then I hid it because I never had positive reactions from anyone else in my life (sisters, parents, first wife) - all people I trusted and all people who could not accept it. I was not in a hurry to be hurt again.

I understand about how this can become overwhelming and stressful especially when you want to do the right thing, when you do not want to deceive. I know that I cannot not be a CD and now I struggle with not wanting to hide it either. It is a huge mental burden - quick point me in the direction of a rubber room :eek:

I feel for you and everyone else caught in this situation. We are out and yet we have been stuffed back into the hole. They believe that by rejecting what they don't want to know that it will just go away. It is an unresolved issue, 8 years old for me, that eats at my soul. It eats at my self worth and feeling of integrity. It is a catch-22.

Perhaps we need to start a group for those of us who have been outed and then inned again.

Thanks for both of your thoughts and kind words. Here is to hoping that we can some day reach a level of acceptance in our lives.

Huggs
Melissa

[Ashley in Virginia]

Nirvana?

No, Cobain is dead, Novoselic burned out and Grohl sold his soul. :p

[Sharon]

Nirvana?

No, Cobain is dead, Novoselic burned out and Grohl sold his soul. :p

I've been waiting days for someone to make a Cobain reference! Thank goodness -- now I can move on.:)

[melissacd]

I was hoping that we would be able to get through this thread without making that connection...:D

[Rachel Morley]

I love my wife, I want her in my life and I know from past experience that this is something she could not accept.

Love is understanding and acceptance. There is much paradox here. If I try to bring this up again, will I get the same result? Will I get a more positive result? Will it bring an end or a new beginning or both?

How can one take the chance of being true to oneself if it comes at a cost of losing one's love?
Hi Melissa,

I feel for you. You see, to me I'm a hopeless romantic that spent 12 years without even kissing a woman, let alone having a relationship with one all because I believe in "true love" and I wanted to wait until the lightening bolt struck. But believe me it was a very very lonely time and I sometimes (from the bottom of a bottle) used to wonder if I had got it all wrong.

If we are going to talk about Buddhism and Nirvana and the whole "non-self thing" then I guess we have to talk about unconditional love too. The trouble with unconditional love is it takes a very very special person to really love someone unconditionally. To still keep loving them no matter what. I believe that there are people out there who can, not exactly love someone unconditionally, but who can love them so much that it would have to be something very very bad (so bad I can't even give you an example, and obviously cding pales into insignificance by comparison) before they didn't want to at least try to work with you on whatever it is that is making you unhappy.

If you truly love someone, wouldn't you want to make them happy? Wouldn't you want to put their feelings before your own? It's the 51% rule. They say that all successful relationships happen because each person puts the other person's feelings before their own at least 51% of the time. In reality it's always more than 51% . But my point is, if you really love someone, you'll want to listen to them, you'll won't want them to be in emotional turmoil because you will at least (for the majority of the time) want to put them before yourself.

So where does that leave you? Well as you say, you love your wife and want her in your life. Given your level of cding desire and still not pushing it, that puts you in well inside the 51% more like 91% I would say. Does it go both ways?, I don't know because there are more things to life than cding and your wife obviously is a wonderful woman otherwise you wouldn't of married her.

It's a tough one for sure, and one that no one but yourself can answer.

I'm sorry I couldn't be more productive with my answer or opinion, but given this is an open forum I figured you'd like as many people to post as possible.

Take care

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Melissa, I wish I could do more than offer a shoulder to cry on, but I'm not sure I've got any good advice.

I do think Angel's thought about the 51% rule is worth pondering. I know you love your wife and don't want to life without her. But OTOH, is deferring to her wishes worth the corrosive effects it's having on your soul?

It's a question that only you can answer obviously.

On a related note, can your wife see the effect it's having on you (even if she doesn't know the cause)? If so, maybe she'll be more accepting if she can see what unhappiness denying yourself is causing you.

BTW, while I don't normally think it's a good idea to do things secretly from your SO, but I agree with Debbie that given your situation an occasional indulgence might be theraputic.

[melissacd]

Angel and Darla,

Thanks for your wonderful posts! In fact the commentary in this thread has been and continues to be wonderful.

I agree that unconditional love is not something that most humans can achieve, there will always be something that one can do to push another away. That being said, keeping this in context, it seems to me that there are much worse things than cross dressing or the hiding of it.

The irony of all of this is that I have always strived to have the highest integrity in all things. I have never had an affair, though this has pushed me close at times. Participation in this forum has introduced me to some women with a more open mind about all of this and that has tempted me to consider exploring this path. It horrifies me even to think that I could be driven to feel or want to explore this possibility. Desparation can drive us down some nasty roads. So staying true can at times really test our metal.

I have always tried to be the best father I could be. I have worked hard to provide a comfortable living for my family. I have worked hard to make sure that all of my dealings with others are honest and up front. I even wince as I participate in this forum because I feel that it is a breach of trust and yet I feel that I have to have somewhere to get my thoughts and feelings out and get some new insights. I wriggle inside because I am now having coffee with a local CD friend to have someone just to talk to. By being forced underground I feel that I have created a great moral dilema for myself. There is a part of me that feels that at some point, to reach peace with myself, I just have to cross that bridge again and accept the consequences even if the whole thing blows up. And yet...who wants to lose their loved one over something like this...catch-22.

It is wonderful to be a hopeless romantic, I fall into that category too. I have always believed in honour and chivalry. In my 47 years I have only been with three women and only two of them in a more intimate way. I have always believed that I must be true to my partner so it has always grieved me to be otherwise and yet all this churning inside puts crazy ideas into my head. I sometimes feel that I have let this situation simmer for so long that it may never be possible to resolve it, too many hurt feelings, too much obsessing over this, too many angry moments where you could not have an argument with anyone so nothing gets resolved. It is definitely a test of one's will.

I have been a self declared athiest throughout my life, Christianity has never resonated with me. Last year my father passed away and I guess between that and all of this I started a search for spirituality. I have always been a person of science and technology and show me the proof. Something changed with my father's death. Suddenly death was no longer just a far distant concept but rather it was staring me in the face. Suddenly a panic welled up in me, how long can I keep denying who I am. The real recognition of my mortality made me realize I do not have forever to come to terms with this. That has made this matter become more important to me than ever. It also led me down the path of looking at various religious practices.

In this search, it was Budhism that most resonated with me. While I am uncomfortable with religions in general, I found that Budhism spoke to me the most (although I also find good things in other religions such as Taoism and Confuscianism). It has the ideas, values, practices that most feel right. It has also made me wonder if part of the reason, although maybe this is a bit of a stretch, that we have these cross dressing feelings. Is it possible that we were females in another life(lives) and have unfinished karma related to those lives that we are anxious to get on with? Learning about these other religions also forces me to stand back and try and view this (and everything) from a different perspective. A part of me wants to embrace and enjoy that feminine part of myself, a part of me feels guilty and shamed about it, a part of me says that I must rise above the whole notion of being male or female etc....etc....ect...this is very complex.

In terms of the 51% rule, I agree, if you love someone you give more than you take. If each of you does the same then you both are recipients of great wealth.

And yes, my wife is a wonderful caring person, she just seems to have a blind spot in this area.

Is deferring to her wishes worth the corrosive effects it is having on my soul? That is a great question, perhaps this is a test. Adversity helps us grow. One of the reasons that I am afraid to cross the bridge again is because I am afraid of all of the negative things that it may bring, one reason that I want to cross the bridge again is because of all the positive things it might bring. At this stage I do not know which way the winds will blow. I only have previous experience to go by. If the tables were turned I know that I would be much more accepting, but that is me. In my heart I know that I must cross that bridge some day, come what may. It is not a matter of if for me, it is a matter of when and under what circumstances. I think that that is what participating in this forum has helped me to see. So to answer your question Darla, deferring is no longer an option.

Has my wife seen the effect? She has detected an unhappiness but appears not to have put two and two together. She has not ever asked me if my unhappiness, depressions, anger has anything to do with that. In fact in all of these years she has never talked about that at all. In reading Karren's monologue about her current situation with her wife the non-discussion pattern is showing itself there too. Now I do not know their situation, but if they don't at some stage talk about it then it will also be a loose end, an unresolved issue, a point of tension between them. Meanwhile I read her stories with great interest and anticipation in the hopes that I will gain new insights into my own situation. So will she be more accepting if she sees the unhappiness...if she knows not the cause and I am afraid to divulge that to her then in fairness to her she does not know the connection between the unhappiness and the non-acceptance. Catch-22.

In terms of occassional indulgence, I do consider that, the logistics are difficult, the guilt is painful. The thought though does cross my mind. Will it be therapeutic or like rubbing salt into a wound...good question. Maybe by not indulging I push myself more towards resolution than to escapism that defers the inevitable.

Thanks for all of your wonderful thoughts and insights.

Huggs
Melissa

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

She has not ever asked me if my unhappiness, depressions, anger has anything to do with that. In fact in all of these years she has never talked about that at all.

Not to be a homewrecker, but the fact that she's never talked to you at all about your unhappiness, depressions and anger seems symptomatic of larger issues worth thinking about.


A part of me wants to embrace and enjoy that feminine part of myself, a part of me feels guilty and shamed about it, a part of me says that I must rise above the whole notion of being male or female etc....etc....ect...this is very complex.

Perhaps before deciding whether to come out to your wife again it would be good to resolve how you yourself feel about this. Obviously it can be extremely hurtful to be rejected by someone you love, but if you can accept and love this part of yourself, you're less apt to be devastated by any potential rejection. And that in turn will make you better able to give 51% rather than 91%.

BTW, to add to your philosophical reading, you might find "Existentialism and Crossdressing" (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/cathytg/exist.htm) useful. The short version is:


Each person is free. One cannot always choose one's circumstances, but one can always choose one's response.
Our existence and our choices in this existence are vitally important.
Each person has the ultimate responsibility for their life.
Our minds constantly seek to escape the profundity of our existence, the necessity of self-determination, and our personal resonsibility. We must be ever mindful of the tendency to self-delusion.
For some, a change of gender may be the authentic choice; for others, it may be a form of escape.
Self knowledge is vital. Our choices should not be made out of ignorance, fear or unmitigated selfishness.
While our situation is "absurd", we can choose whether we respond to the absuridity in a positive or a negative way.


Personally, I find the last two points particularly relevant. In short whether this life is heaven or hell is up to us. I don't mean to gloss Pollyanne-ish over truly difficult circumstances, merely that one can choose to say "woe is me" vs. viewing those circumstances as something to be overcome. Even if one isn't successful in overcoming them, the fight is probably more satisfying than a life of resignation.

[Ashley in Virginia]

I've been waiting days for someone to make a Cobain reference! Thank goodness -- now I can move on.:)

Glad to help you out. I thought about doing it earlier, but it seemed waaay to easy a joke to make. Just had to get it in though.

[melissacd]

Darla,

Thanks very much for your thoughts and thanks very much for the reference to existentialism and cross dressing. It looks like great reading.


Not to be a homewrecker, but the fact that she's never talked to you [i]at all[i/] about your unhappiness, depressions and anger seems symptomatic of larger issues worth thinking about.


It is not that she has not talked to me about unhappiness, depression or anger, but rather that she has not talked about these things in the context of cross dressing or lack thereof. In fact she has never brough the topic of cross dressing up since the discovery.

For example, she will ask me what is bothering me, but she has never asked "are you bothered about not being able to cross dress? (or rather her non-acceptance of it)".

I suppose, as the article you provided points out, I should recognize my responsibility for my life and my happiness and tell her what is really bothering me and then just accept whatever consequences befall that admission.

I guess deep down inside I know that in the end I just have to "do it" - the sooner I face that reality and take the necessary actions to reclaim myself the sooner I move on to whatever the next phase is - be it eventual understanding or an ending.

Thanks again for your wonderful insights. It is great to be able to think this through.

Huggs
Melissa

[melissacd]

Ashley,

You crazy gurl :eek: I wuz wundrin how long it would take for someone to make that comment. Can't be serious all the time :D

Huggs
Melissa

[Sarahgurl371]

Hi all, wow what a great thread!

Just checking in to see whats up. was gonna reply with quotes but that would take to long, as you all have said some great things with evidentally much forethought.

Let me see if I can remember what I wanted to say:

51% rule. Excellent idea, I truly agree. Heres the problem. Wife and I probably gonna end up spliting up. She's seen a counselor twice now and its pretty apparant thats the way its going. Last might we had a talk. Her conselour feels that I am putting my needs in front of hers, and that is wrong. I'll agree, right now I am. It took a long time to get where I'm at with my own acceptance and self love, the further I head in that direction, the harder it is to live with somebody who can't or won't accept me. The 51% rule - As I told her last night, Add up all the time we've spent together, add up all the time we've spent in intamacy, add up all the time and money and effort that we have put into your hobbies and interests, now add up all the time that I have been PERMITTED to spend with or without you in my way (cding), add up all of those intimate times that I have gotten things my way. I think that my restraint from putting my needs in front of hers puts the equation more like 99% her needs, 1% my needs. I don't think I'm exagerating here. When do I get my turn? 14 years of marraige here folks.
She thinks that because I won't choose to eliminate this part of my self, that I'm either putting my own interests, desires, in front of hers and us, or that I "have a problem" you know sex addict or something. My counselor does't see it that way.

Effects on my happiness, self worth:
My wife clearly sees the effects on me, and if she hasn't, I have definately learned to communicate them to her. I have definatley seen the effects this has had on her as well, and am not trying to mitigate that. I have bent to the breaking point on the whole CD thing. I have accepted compromise after compromise, I've aven compromised on comprises that WE have entered into. I have never even attempted to DO ALL THE THINGS THAT I WAS ALLOWED TO DO as per our compromise, out of respect for her feelings (51% rule right). Now we are back to sqare one. She's bought me stuff, helped me the first time with make up, seen it all, heard it ALL, made deals with me, only to rescind it all later. How many times do I need to go down this road? I'm a pretty hopeful person, but the glass is staring to look half empty.

I feel that is you love somebody, you have to nuture them, not control and make them submit. I currently do no know if this is just a power struggle here, or that she truly cannot deal with this. You see, I have ALWAYS given her whatever she wanted, hate to say p#####whipped, but I am. I have always put her needs in front of my own. I am not going to back down on this issue, its too important to ME. I feel so bad for all of us in similar situations, this sucks! Effects on my happiness, you bet. Not only that but now I'm in a place where I have to decide if I have enough confidence in myself to follow my intuition, its telling me to go. I've always said I didn't care what anybody thinks of me, nothing could be further from the truth. What if SHE is right? What if no one can ever accept me? Will I die wrong and alone if I split? Or will I die a happy person fulled with the love a wonderful person if I go, or stay? I'm so damned confused and scared.

Time:
I too feel the pressure of time, I realize that I am young, but time keeps getting faster and faster each year. I have had some bad things in life happen with family as well recently, its probably helped bring this all to the forefront. So yes, My Biological Clock is ticking. I don't want to wake and be 70 someday, and say, Jeez I really missed out on life because I was to afraid to take a chance. My Dad always says the only difference between a rut and a grave, is the depth of the hole.

This forum does help alot. Thanks to all you wonderful PEOPLE here.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

It is not that she has not talked to me about unhappiness, depression or anger, but rather that she has not talked about these things in the context of cross dressing or lack thereof. In fact she has never brough the topic of cross dressing up since the discovery.

For example, she will ask me what is bothering me, but she has never asked "are you bothered about not being able to cross dress? (or rather her non-acceptance of it)".

Well it's probably a sin of ommission than commission. In her mind, you stopped CDing, so why would it be an issue? (I'm assuming the discussion never got far enough that she understands things run deeper than that.)

Not to put a guilt trip on her, but I think it's worth letting her know how hard you tried to bury this out of your love for her. But ultimately, it's asking you to deny a part of yourself and that's at the root of the anger, depression, etc.

Tammy, I think the key to the 51% rule is it's something both partners need to do -- and it's something that's averaged out over time. Sometimes one partners' needs will come first for a period of time, but hopefully they can reciprocate for the other at a later date. When it becomes one-sided over a period of time, that's obviously unhealthy. And unfortunately, sometimes people have issues where there's a fundamental disagreement, which may not be resolvable.

(Incidently, one of the most valuable lessons I learned is that it's critical to figure out whether your problems stem from a lack of communication or a fundamental disagreement -- since they're resolved in different ways. If it's the latter situation, trying to communicate more often actually makes things worse, since the other person does understand your point and gets annoyed that you keep repeating as if they don't get it. In contrast, once you've recognized you've got a fundamental disagreement, you can acknowledge that fact and potentially move forward.)

[Sarahgurl371]

I am beginning to believe is a fundamental disagreement, and one that we cannot get around. I comprehend your point about the tendency to over communicate, and it is well taken, but.... how can you not at least try to find different ways of explaining it to someone who just doesn't get it? And at what point do you give up?

[melissacd]

You try until you can try no more. Each person has to decide what it is worth to them. Some will give up right away, some will give it lots of time and then stop and some will never give up until the day they die.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

how can you not at least try to find different ways of explaining it to someone who just doesn't get it? And at what point do you give up?

If you're able to argue cool-headedly enough, one technique is to have one person restate the second person's argument and then let the second person let the first know whether they've capture their POV accurately. If the other person hasn't captured your argument accurately, then you clarify -- not in an accusative fashion, but with the attitude that maybe you didn't make yourself clear enough. Repeat until both sides are satisfied the other understands their POV. That way you're at least clear the each understands the other's POV -- even if they don't agree with that POV.

Otherwise, there's no hard and fast rule, so it's really when your intuition tells you its time. In your situation it may be in part when you feel she doesn't want to try to understand.

[melissacd]

Darla,

By the way I wanted to thank you very much for that link on Existentialism and Cross Dressing. It is very fascinating reading and certainly gives me much to ponder.

Huggs
Melissa

[Andrea's Lynne]

Melissa,

Thank you for sharing that wonderful post. I feel as though you were speaking for and through me. I deeply hope you find the happiness you seek. We all deserve it!

Best of luck sister,

Lynne