Opinions on SRS?

[MackenzieMarigold]

What is everyone's opinion on this? I personally don't want to spend a ton of money on something purely cosmetic. I can't justify it to myself. It's like, I already know I'm a girl, and I'd be honest about where I've came from to anyone I'd be intimate with anyway.

I'm all for HRT but I can't see myself getting any kind of cosmetic surgery. Maybe I'll change my opinion when I'm older but for where I am now, I can't see myself doing it.

Is that weird? Because most MtF's seem to want it so badly, and sometimes I feel like I'm just a boy in a dress because of that. I don't care what's in my pants, I think what's in my heart is the most important thing.

Like I don't see it as I'll become a girl, but as I ALREADY AM one. For so long it was the first way though, but lately I'm thinking of it a whole new way. Now the only obstacle is when I can show the real me to the world.

[kellycan27]

Whatever works for ya................

[Sharon]

I think it's a whole lot more meaningful than your dismissal of it as mere cosmetic surgery, but as Kelly says, "whatever works for ya."

[MackenzieMarigold]

I think it's a whole lot more meaningful than your dismissal of it as mere cosmetic surgery, but as Kelly says, "whatever works for ya."


I never meant that it's purely cosmetic for everyone, that's just how I see it for myself. But I completely understand why someone else would want it.

[Katesback]

You mentioned that you wish to "Now the only obstacle is when I can show the real me to the world". As I read that it appears your not even presenting a woman to the world yet. If that is the case your assumptions about much of anything to do with transition are so infantile that they really have to be dismissed because if you actually do transition you can be assured your world will change as will your points of view.

[crystalann]

I cant see why I would transition and not have SRS, but that's just me.
:happy:

[Melody Moore]

I cant see why I would transition and not have SRS, but that's just me.
:happy:

I feel the same as Crystal... GRS/SRS only represents 10% of being a woman to me, and while it is only a small
part of what it means to me to be a woman, I feel that it is a vital component that will make me feel complete.

But I respect anyone's desire to go on hormones and not to have GRS/SRS - after all who am
I to judge what is best for you? The answer to those question can only come from yourself.

[MackenzieMarigold]

You mentioned that you wish to "Now the only obstacle is when I can show the real me to the world". As I read that it appears your not even presenting a woman to the world yet. If that is the case your assumptions about much of anything to do with transition are so infantile that they really have to be dismissed because if you actually do transition you can be assured your world will change as will your points of view.

Wow, I didn't think of it that way. Thank you. That really knocked me off my feet.

[Badtranny]

I'm with you Melody, but as much as I hate to admit it, I also have to agree with "the Voice of Experience"tm

Mackenzie is waaaaaay to early in her journey to have any idea what she will want or how she will feel when that time comes.

[Frances]

Purely cosmetic... wow. This forum needs more sub-sections.

[Katesback]

I totally agree. The more I read the posts here the more I realize that a lot of the people here are crossdressers and dreamers.









Purely cosmetic... wow. This forum needs more sub-sections.

[Melody Moore]

I'm with you Melody, but as much as I hate to admit it, I also have to agree with "the Voice of Experience"tm

Mackenzie is waaaaaay to early in her journey to have any idea what she will want or how she will feel when that time comes.
I have to agree with you Melissa and also "the Voice of Experience tm" in this case. :heehee:

[Zenith]

Purely cosmetic... wow. This forum needs more sub-sections.

When I respond to threads like this I get attacked. :doh:

But indeed, SRS is not cosmetic. It is a permanent change to your physiology. You pee differently, you intercourse differently, your pool of partners is different, your orgasms are different, your hormone production is permanently altered, the way the world sees you is different (you will be put in a women's' prison for example)...etc... It's not simply having a flat front in women's jeans like some seem to think...

[Katesback]

Perhaps maybe I should just become more accepting of anything out there. I mean I have a feeling the next post is going to be someone claiming to be trans species. Instead of trying to help people to gravitate towards a normal life why not just support them in whatever adventure they wish.

So for all you out there that want to be _______ more power to ya. Have fun and become an activist and fight for the right to be a freek. Why not.










When I respond to threads like this I get attacked. :doh:

But indeed, SRS is not cosmetic. It is a permanent change to your physiology. You pee differently, you intercourse differently, your pool of partners is different, your orgasms are different, your hormone production is permanently altered, the way the world sees you is different (you will be put in a women's' prison for example)...etc... It's not simply having a flat front in women's jeans like some seem to think...

[Zenith]

...Perhaps maybe I should just become more accepting of anything out there. I mean I have a feeling the next post is going to be someone claiming to be trans species....

Watch it Roller "Darby" Queen....:gg:...everyone knows I am a Trans-Squirrel...:smug:

Indeed...I am scheduled for SFS (Squirrelizing Facial Surgery) with whisker transplants with Dr. Spiegel in December...

:Zenith:

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The OP is not very well informed about what's going on ...

Perhaps Mackenzie you are a woman...but based on your OP you are going to screw up your life if you start talking and doing things without knowing the lay of the land ....
you need more maturity and guidance to help you deal with the realities of your life..

Many crossdressers talk alot of being transsexual, but they are more about pushing their fantasy...this is a personal decision and its totally ok to do it... but many ts people will react strongly to this because we know what's going on...the real life problems faced by ts people can lead to a bitterness around people that are just playing around.

so your post sets off some red flags in this regard, but who knows...saying srs is a cosmetic procedure is true in the sense that it cures a birth defect, like fixing a cleft palate...but ts people have found that fixing this birth defect has an incredible effect on quality of life, and it sure doesnt feel like a cosmetic procedure..

so if you want to have a serious discussion about it...get serious...if you are curious...you can see the answers...if you are just talking to talk..then as kelly said..whatever works for ya...

[stacie]

AMEN!!! Katesback :)

[Zenith]

..but many ts people will react strongly to this because we know what's going on...the real life problems faced by ts people can lead to a bitterness around people that are just playing around....

God yes. And also that some refuse to listen to experience and instead argue. Which really makes me wonder why I even try anymore.

[Katesback]

Thinking I should put a new thread out there talking about how I want my penis back. Yea thats it. Add to it the wiskers and stuff like that that Zenith is getting and hey that will be really mainstream.

Is this forum really about transsexual people or is it just a place for people that are living in a fantasy world to come and pretend? I just want to know because I swear the few real people here get so much flack from the fantasy people that its a good question.

[arbon]

I don't care what's in my pants, I think what's in my heart is the most important thing.



There you go. Do what is best for you, and if how you feel about it later on changes that is fine to.

[chloe23]

You must learn to separate Fantasy from Reality first.........

To me SRS, was correcting a birth defect and not a fantasy. I too was born with a penis and not a vagina like i should have been. SRS corrected this birth defect for me.

Do i miss my penis??? No, not at all, i was never attached to it and i am glad it's gone.

SRS has greatly improved my life and i feel more confident today with my self.

[Stephenie S]

Yup. If being a chick with a dick appeals to you then go for it.

But I have to say, you don't even sound like a chick. Just another guy with a fantasy.

There is a crossdressing section to this forum. Heck, this IS a crossdressing forum. So we all support you in your hobby. But this is the transgender section. I have always assumed that this section is for transgendered or transitioning people. That's why I am always surprised by the antagonism shown towards those that have already transitioned and still post here. It just might be that those people are here to help and guide those are not so far along.

Sexual reassignment surgery is not cosmetic. It is a wonderful, mind blowing, life changing, occurrence that is filled with joy and contentment. I am so sorry that it is impossible to communicate just how amazing this change will be. But it is. Cosmetic surgery? Oh my dear, you are SO naive.

This is not an attack. I am not attacking you. Perhaps I am not being as polite as you would like. I am sorry. We can't all have the social graces of Kate. I am trying to TEACH you something. I am trying to educate you. Take it or leave it, dear. But it's good advice, spoken from an experienced point of view.

Stephie

So, did I actually GIVE you any advice? Maybe not. How about this? Read. Talk. Join. LISTEN. Do. You mentioned hormone therapy. This will also change your whole life. Not anywhere NEAR as much as surgery, but a whole lot. Stick around. There is a bit of truth here and there on this forum. Listen to those who have gone before. If you don't understand, ask.

S

[MackenzieMarigold]

I understand. I'll go now.

[Zenith]

I understand. I'll go now.

You are YOU which is a wonderful thing nobody else can be. Do what is right for you. You don't have to go. I think you hit a nerve as many of us have spoken up when someone is dismissive of the nature of SRS, only to end up defending ourselves and our hard fought path.

[arbon]

So anyone questioning is not welcome here?

Just gang up and really let them know just how unwelcome they are so they don't come back???????

Where does it define a transexaul in this sub forum as only those that desire SRS? or that only those with such a desire can post here?

A lot of the TS (post ops to!!) DO POST IN THE CD SECTION by the way.

What a nice bunch of people :(

[Kaitlyn Michele]

:hugs:Well then thanks for being honest...

[Frances]

Where does it define a transexaul in this sub forum as only those that desire SRS? or that only those with such a desire can post here?

You really think that is the reason people reacted, including me? Language is important. There was an unfortunate turn of phrase in the opening post that was hurtful to a lot of members. The OP should have realised that from the reaction and maybe restated her question.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

there is truth that there is a conflict between people that don't want srs and those that do..

No one "defines" the label transsexual...i get it...
But if you don't want srs because you desire to keep your penis(pls don't misinterpret this...being broke, fearing surgery, having family issues are not desiring to keep your penis...many ts people are forced by circumstance to miss out on srs),
then i think its fair to say there is a good chance that the person is just fantasizing about being transsexual..fantasizing about "going all the way" is pretty common..

If that makes you feel bad, then you need examine how you feel about yourself..each one of us deals with "i am yam what i yam" differently... but trying to claim you are transsexual and calling life affirming surgery cosmetic is something that is hard to accept without a response

[Kathryn Martin]

:wall: This is why there is an ongoing debate about what it means to be transsexual :facepalm:

After reading the OP post I find the lackadaisical approach to these issues extremely bizarre. Under any standards of care no matter what organization, one of the signature criteria is the desire to obtain a female body by surgery.

Read this from Wpath Standards of Care (http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf)

"The Development of a Nomenclature.

The term transexxual emerged into professional and
public usage in the 1950s as a means of designating a person who aspired to or actually lived in
the anatomically contrary gender role, whether or not hormones had been administered or
surgery had been performed. During the 1960s and 1970s, clinicians used the term true
transsexual. The true transsexual was thought to be a person with a characteristic path of atypical
gender identity development that predicted an improved life from a treatment sequence that
culminated in genital surgery. True transsexuals were thought to have: 1) cross-gender
identifications that were consistently expressed behaviorally in childhood, adolescence, and
adulthood; 2) minimal or no sexual arousal to cross-dressing; and 3) no heterosexual interest,
relative to their anatomic sex. True transsexuals could be of either sex. True transsexual males
were distinguished from males who arrived at the desire to change sex and gender via a
reasonably masculine behavioral developmental pathway. Belief in the true transsexual concept
for males dissipated when it was realized that such patients were rarely encountered, and
thatsome of the original true transsexuals had falsified their histories to make their stories match
the earliest theories about the disorder. The concept of true transsexual females never created
diagnostic uncertainties, largely because patient histories were relatively consistent and gender
variant behaviors such as female cross-dressing remained unseen by clinicians. The term "gender
dysphoria syndrome" was later adopted to designate the presence of a gender problem in either
sex until psychiatry developed an official nomenclature.

The diagnosis of Transsexualism was introduced in the DSM-III in 1980 for gender dysphoric
individuals who demonstrated at least two years of continuous interest in transforming the sex of
their bodies and their social gender status. Others with gender dysphoria could be diagnosed as
Gender Identity Disorder of Adolescence or Adulthood, Nontranssexual Type; or Gender
Identity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (GIDNOS). These diagnostic terms were usually
ignored by the media, which used the term transsexual for any person who wanted to change
his/her sex and gender.

The DSM-IV. In 1994, the DSM-IV committee replaced the diagnosis of Transsexualism with
Gender Identity Disorder. Depending on their age, those with a strong and persistent crossgender
identification and a persistent discomfort with their sex or a sense of inappropriateness in
the gender role of that sex were to be diagnosed as Gender Identity Disorder of Childhood
(302.6), Adolescence, or Adulthood (302.85). For persons who did not meet these criteria,
Gender Identity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (GIDNOS)(302.6) was to be used. This
category included a variety of individuals, including those who desired only castration or
penectomy without a desire to develop breasts, those who wished hormone therapy and
mastectomy without genital reconstruction, those with a congenital intersex condition, those with
transient stress-related cross-dressing, and those with considerable ambivalence about giving up
their gender status. Patients diagnosed with GID and GIDNOS were to be subclassified
according to the sexual orientation: attracted to males; attracted to females; attracted to both; or
attracted to neither. This subclassification was intended to assist in determining, over time,
whether individuals of one sexual orientation or another experienced better outcomes using
particular therapeutic approaches; it was not intended to guide treatment decisions.
Between the publication of DSM-III and DSM-IV, the term "transgender" began to be used in
various ways. Some employed it to refer to those with unusual gender identities in a value-free
manner -- that is, without a connotation of psychopathology. Some people informally used the
term to refer to any person with any type of gender identity issues. Transgender is not a formal
diagnosis, but many professionals and members of the public found it easier to use informally
than GIDNOS, which is a formal diagnosis."

Or are we all just making it up as we go?

Note that the writers clearly distinguish between gender and sex. This distinction is at the root of a correct diagnosis of a person born transsexual.

[Kathryn Martin]

Purely cosmetic... wow. This forum needs more sub-sections.

The "Congruentialists" and the "Women with Penises" maybe?

[DebbieL]

Different people have different needs. Transgender is a very wide spectrum, but even within the realm of Transsexual, there is a spectrum. Many want to be able to live and act as a girl, but they don't want to give up the "package" below. Some want to get rid of the balls but not the stick, and some want to be able to perform sexually as a woman. Even the SRS procedures have different results. A procedure which lets you have female orgasms and a full clit can be very expensive. There are butchers who will give you the appearance but little or none of the fun.

Making that final transition is a dramatic choice, and most of those who make that choice are totally clear that this is what they want, even with any of the related consequences and requirements. Many have lived for several years as a woman and have done extraordinary things to raise the money for the expensive procedures, including adult films, adult web sites, or other variations on showing their transitioning body for profit.

Sulka and Shannon both funded their transitions with their films and part of the deal was that they would do some films that included "before" and "after" in the same films. You can see the differences just between procedures done 5 years apart. Some of the earliest SRS procedures were really bad, more like castration and emasculation with a trivial attempt to provide a shallow ditch. Most of the modern procedures are much better and have been more successful in terms of providing a positive post SRS experience.

This may be one of the reasons we are seeing more and more Transsexuals proceeding through the SRS procedures. Though I haven't seen as many movies featuring "before and after" scenes.

[arbon]

You really think that is the reason people reacted, including me? Language is important. There was an unfortunate turn of phrase in the opening post that was hurtful to a lot of members. The OP should have realised that from the reaction and maybe restated her question.

I don't think you were mean and apologize for implying everyone was being mean. It is only a few of the usual bullies that I find so irritating and I should have been more specific.

I do think the OP got the point within the first few replys, and really, hurtful? are the post ops here really so sensitive after all they have been through to justify some of the responses?



That's why I am always surprised by the antagonism shown towards those that have already transitioned and still post here. It just might be that those people are here to help and guide those are not so far along.

Probably because you say things like: "But I have to say, you don't even sound like a chick. Just another guy with a fantasy. " But you weren't attacking, your just saying right? Just not being as polite as you could be? A tough love kinda deal? Asking for advice or help here can be about as inviting as asking for it on the freerepublic board.


I just want to know because I swear the few real people here get so much flack from the fantasy people that its a good question.

Why should people want advice from people that make them feel crappy about themselves? Hell, now some of us are not even real people. My opinion, some of the Post ops here are pretty full of themselves, and it is not an attack, I'm just saying.

[Frances]

I do think the OP got the point within the first few replys, and really, hurtful? are the post ops here really so sensitive after all they have been through to justify some of the responses?

I will speak only for myself here. I lived in total shame all of my life for being trans. I saw psychiatrists and psychologists in hope of finding a cure from age 16 on. I hated myself for it. When I finally realised that it was not going to go away at age 40, I tried real hard to accept it and overcome the shame.

I eventually came out to everyone and went on my path. I heard a lot of people asking me why could I not only be woman in my mind but not change anything else about my life and body, or why would I want to mutilate my body... over and over again. The answer is that I needed to communicate what was in my head to the rest of the world, clothed or naked, and that I didn't want to mutilate my body. It is not a question of want. I had to do it. I was essential, not cosmetic.

[Traci Elizabeth]

When I respond to threads like this I get attacked. :doh:

But indeed, SRS is not cosmetic. It is a permanent change to your physiology. You pee differently, you intercourse differently, your pool of partners is different, your orgasms are different, your hormone production is permanently altered, the way the world sees you is different (you will be put in a women's' prison for example)...etc... It's not simply having a flat front in women's jeans like some seem to think...


I have to agree with what Julie wrote about life after SRS and I am not going to debate this one but only say that even though I am having SRS early 2012 with Dr. C in Thailand, I still know I am a woman NOW, and nothing anyone says can change or discredit my womanhood be it pre or post op.

I also believe there are some who are too old, too weak, or have serious medical conditions, serious financial problems, or certain family issues that put SRS out of reach for them permanently or at least postpone it for a considerable period of time. BUT in my opinion, they are still women and none of us can claim otherwise.

Unfortunately, there exists a lot of time, a negative attitude between the post-op gals & the pre-op gals. The former believing them to be "true" women and the pre-ops as a lessor woman or not a woman at all - just pretenders. I sincerely hope that after my SRS I do not belittle or reject the pre-op gals as women like I see happening so often.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

So anyone questioning is not welcome here?

Just gang up and really let them know just how unwelcome they are so they don't come back???????

Where does it define a transexaul in this sub forum as only those that desire SRS? or that only those with such a desire can post here?

A lot of the TS (post ops to!!) DO POST IN THE CD SECTION by the way.

What a nice bunch of people :(

In the MTF
I picked out a post from someone that i felt could use a push and after my posts was vilified beyond belief

i was called Neanderthal, ugly, and worse, i was the subject of an entire thread about how to use the ignore button and how wonderful it is to not see my "blather"..

what a nice bunch of people...

so leave the generalizations out of it..

[arbon]

In the MTF


what a nice bunch of people...

so leave the generalizations out of it..

I apologize for generalizing, I should have been specific about which posts and who's.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I apologize for generalizing, I should have been specific about which posts and who's.

....................:hugs:

[stacie]

I just love how someone ask a simple question here or post their own thoughts or opinion and it turns into a big drama for the same people who always post things here and their post become totally none related to the oringal question posting. Some of you need to get a life and just answer the simple question with a positive helpful responce and also stop being negitive torwards other peoples postings.

[Badtranny]

So for all you out there that want to be _______ more power to ya. Have fun and become an activist and fight for the right to be a freek. Why not.

oooops, I spoke too soon.

It was only a matter of time I suppose. I just thought it might be more time.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

gawd stacie i wish it was a simple question!!! LOL

[MackenzieMarigold]

I really thought this was a nice place. But then I get attacked for saying that TO ME it would be cosmetic. Not to everyone else, or ANYONE else for that matter, but to me. I've been picked on my whole life, and I thought this was a safe place. But then I get called a freak, and all of those other things.

All because I mis-phrased something. I'm really sorry for that, truly. I meant no harm to anyone. But when I get attacked that way for a simple mistake, I don't know what to do. I'm just 18, and as one of the first posters said, I'm too young to even know if I'll still think that way later. Maybe in 15 years I'll change my mind and get it, I don't know.

All I wanted was to finally find some people who understand me, and now when I finally find them, I'm considered a freak? When it's implied that it's all just some fetish to me, (and it isn't at all) that really really hurts me.

I'm just happy I found out people felt this way now instead of later.

[Zenith]

I really thought this was a nice place. But then I get attacked for saying that TO ME it would be cosmetic. Not to everyone else, or ANYONE else for that matter, but to me. I've been picked on my whole life, and I thought this was a safe place. But then I get called a freak, and all of those other things.

All because I mis-phrased something. I'm really sorry for that, truly. I meant no harm to anyone. But when I get attacked that way for a simple mistake, I don't know what to do. I'm just 18, and as one of the first posters said, I'm too young to even know if I'll still think that way later. Maybe in 15 years I'll change my mind and get it, I don't know.

All I wanted was to finally find some people who understand me, and now when I finally find them, I'm considered a freak? When it's implied that it's all just some fetish to me, (and it isn't at all) that really really hurts me.

I'm just happy I found out people felt this way now instead of later.

I posted earlier that you should be who you are and that is a wonderful thing. And not to go off upset. And you just hit a nerve here. I have to say if you are going to transition, you will have to grow a very thick skin as the real world can be much more challenging than a few of us bozos on a message board... :hugs:

[Stephenie S]

Dear Marygold,

PLEASE don't go away.

I apologize with all my heart and for everyone else here. Stick around PLEASE. This is a support forum. You will get support here, honest. Some of us are not as polite or considerate of a newbie's feelings as perhaps we might, but we are a minority.

Thank you,
Stephenie

[DebbieL]

:wall: This is why there is an ongoing debate about what it means to be transsexual :facepalm:

After reading the OP post I find the lackadaisical approach to these issues extremely bizarre. Under any standards of care no matter what organization, one of the signature criteria is the desire to obtain a female body by surgery.

Read this from Wpath Standards of Care (http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf)

Or are we all just making it up as we go?

Note that the writers clearly distinguish between gender and sex. This distinction is at the root of a correct diagnosis of a person born transsexual.

I've grown up through the extremes. I knew I was transgendered, my parents knew, and the medical community knew.

In 1962, even DISCUSSING it would have been a criminal act.

In 1968, only two movies about transsexuals existed, and Myra Breckenridge was more like a fantasy of a transsexual.

In 1974, I met my first drag queen. I still had never met or seen a transsexual.

In 1977, discussing it could still get the patient arrested, or result in loss of funding for his treatment (insurance & ability-to-pay programs wouldn't even permit the discussion of the possible diagnosis). I was in therapy at the time, and tried to bring it up, and they told me that they could not even let me finish the sentence. Even though I was suicidal and had tried to kill myself 3 times that year, I couldn't discuss the REAL reasons why.

1n 1980, I was in a 12 step program, and being gay or transgendered was no longer a criminal act, but there STILL were no books or resources available to find out anything about gender disphoria.

In 1985, I was able to engage in discussions about gender identity issues in a usenet newsgroup, and FINALLY met someone who was transgendered and was in the process of transition. She had gone to work for AT&T BECAUSE they had a strong diversity policy. She had started working there as a man, then, when she was living all BUT here time at the office as a woman, her therapist, boss, and team were introduced to her femme identity. It was rough for about 2 weeks, but then they just started relating to her as a woman.

1n 1989, I was fired from Fedex because I wore a Maid's dress to the company Halloween party. I was too graceful in heels, I'd shaved my legs, and I'd made the dress myself out of black bridal satin. It took one year of "counselling sessions". These were 1 hour monday, to be given a list of tasks and priorities, then on friday when the priorities were reversed and I would be formally reprimanded for the items not completed - even though I had to work 60 hours/week to accomplish 8 of the 10 things that were highest priority on Monday. It was very deliberate and calculated sexual harassment, specifically designed to coerce me into resigning. Ironically, I earned 3 Bravo Zulu awards, each for saving the company $1 billion/year, and was told that even if I earned 3 more in the next 90 days, it wouldn't be enough to get me off "probation". In effect, I could resign, or be fired, effective November 1. The team won one more Bravo Zulu award as well as the Malcolm Baldridge award for quality as a result of my work.

In 1989, I finally got a therapist to help me with the Gender Identity issues. My wife was having an affair and wanted a divorce, and had moved in with her boyfriend (taking the kids with her). She threatened to expose my dressing in court and to social workers, - which would have meant supervised visitation, or complete loss of visitation - but no reduction in child support (50% of my after tax income at the time).

In 1992, I moved to New York state, because Colorado had passed a constitutional amendment which effectively legalized harassment of gay and perceived gay people (including those who were transgendered). Later I found that New Jersey had even better protections.

In 1995, I was accepted into a leadership program, but I was told that if I wanted to be a leader, I had to quit dressing, both publicly and privately. I eventually blew away all measures and outperformed everybody, then told them I couldn't accept their terms and left the program.

In 1995-6, I started working in New York and lived right across the river in Jersey City. I was able to dress occaisionally, but not as often as I had hoped. Mostly because I was working insane hours to put new McGraw-Hill on the Internet, along with about 8,000 publishers who subscribed to a mailing list where I provided technical and business leadership, consulting, and support.

In 1997 I started working as a consultant and started gaining a LOT of weight. I shot up to almost 250 lbs. I stopped dressing publicly, and didn't really like how I looked in the mirror when I dressed in private. My off-again/on-again Long Distance part time relationship didn't help. By 9/11 2001, I was up to 325 lbs and couldn't fasten my seat belt in the airplane. Feeling trapped in my male body, the prospect dying of a heart attack didn't scare me as much as surviving a stroke or heart attack.

Ironically, by 1999, several companies had very aggressive diversity policies, and a few even covered some or of the medical procedures, but not the cosmetic procedures. They might cover the counseling, HRT, and SRS, but not the Electrolysis or the breast implants.

By the time I finally finished paying the child support, I had the choice of funding my retirement accounts or the medical procedures. Retirement seemed more urgent. Besides, I finally met a girl who supported my dressing, and wanted to get married. To make matters worse, I was losing much of my hair in front, and thinning in the back, making natural hair impractical.

It's really a wonder that I have survived let alone not transitioned. I was born intersexed - had the stick but no balls. I played with girls as much as I could, and didn't like playing with boys. When I was 11 the testacles dropped, and I tried unsuccessfully to push them back, many times. As my voice started to change and I started needing to shave, I got self destructive, turning to drugs. When I found out I was a bass, I went suicidal, drinking, drugging, and then going for walks down the center-line of a poorly lit 4 lane road, in a black overcoat and pants.

I avoided regular sex, focusing only on pleasing my partners. My first orgasm during sex was only because I was tied down and coudn't focus on her. When I hinted at being transgendered, she dropped me with a dear john note on the windshield of my car. Feeling more trapped in my male body than ever, I ended up in a psych ward for observation, outpatient counselling, and almost killed myself with a quarter pound of ground glass (still don't know how I survived that one). I quit drugs, but had a few relapses, nearly all were directly associated with feeling trapped in my male body.

Ironically, the turning point in my recovery was when I told my first wife about my dressing. She seemed OK with it, and I settled. Eventually, it was clear she WASN'T OK with it, and I found support through an AA/NA sponsor. My wife and I sought counselling and when it was clear that it wasn't going to work out, my sponsor challenged me to "come out", complete with a name, and multiple public appearances. The marriage ended, and my wife married her lover.

I moved to Denver and found a whole group who supported me in transition. I dressed as soon as I got off work and stayed dressed one way or the other until I left for work. It was the happiest and most wonderful time in my life. Unfortunately, all of that ended in a series of cascading events that ultimately left me alone and with little group support. A truly amazing transformation had taken place, but then I had to go back into the closet. I stopped caring, gained weight had a heart attack and a stroke. About a year ago I decided I wanted to be "14 in 14" size 14 in 14 months. I lost over 80 lbs and firmed up my waist. Just put on the size 14 pants yesterday. Still a bit big in the chest for size 14 tops.

In the test that was mentioned in this forum, I scored 385 out of 400 - pretty much - see doctor now.

[Rianna Humble]

I really thought this was a nice place. But then I get attacked for saying that TO ME it would be cosmetic. Not to everyone else, or ANYONE else for that matter, but to me. I've been picked on my whole life, and I thought this was a safe place. But then I get called a freak, and all of those other things
....
All I wanted was to finally find some people who understand me, and now when I finally find them, I'm considered a freak? When it's implied that it's all just some fetish to me, (and it isn't at all) that really really hurts me.

Firstly, please understand that our resident grinch does not speak for every person who posts regularly on this part of the forums, she has very extreme views and has managed to insult the majority people who have posted here whilst I have been reading this section.

By the definitions in the last two editions of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health's Standards of Care, what you describe of your own situation would currently be described as Gender Non-Conforming rather than Transsexual but that does not lessen the reality of your situation nor does it (in and of itself) alleviate the very real Gender Dysphoria that you are experiencing. Luckily, those same SoC are not limited to supporting only Transsexuals but also those who are Gender Non Conforming.

You may well be feeling hurt by the vehement responses to your categorisation of Gender Affirmation Surgery as "purely cosmetic", but to those of us who are either seeking or have undergone this process, the trivialisation of its nature is equally hurtful.

I believe that the essential for you at the moment is to seek support for your very real dysphoria; if possible both with a therapist and with a transgender support group.

[Hope]

While some of the post-op girls like to pretend that you have to have had SRS (or at least want it) to be a "real woman"(tm) the rest of us know better.

I completely understand where you are coming from. I used to feel that way myself... but as you walk this path, things ... change. What you will want tomorrow is not always what you wanted yesterday. What you wanted yesterday is not always what you want today. As you come to know yourself better, you will grow, and as you start to understand who you really are - you may well start to feel differently.

It is also true that trans acceleration is VERY real. As you start down the path, your plan will change, and develop, and you will want to do more, sooner than you ever expected. For me it was a bit breath-taking. I used to feel very much like you describe... today I am saving money for SRS.

But even without SRS you are still a girl... There are lots of girls out there who have not had SRS for a lot of very valid reasons. That doesn't mean that any of them are not real women... and if you choose to join their ranks, only the most bigoted among us would deny you your identity.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Hope is right.

Alot of people are posers. Your PM raised some red flags because of unfortunate word choice and you were making comments about a surgery before you've really taken steps to live your life as a female...nobody here is the gender police, but alot of people have suffered greatly for their identity, and are protective of it, rightly or wrongly

So i think it's great you have followed the thread, and as you can see, people here are supportive...opinionated, but supportive!

[chloe23]

I have to agree with Hope. Everybody's situation is different and Pre-op's and Post-op's should learn to respect everybody. This is a forum to educate and get support for one another, not to bash each other. We all have to learn to get along in this world. SRS is not a cosmetic procedure, for some people it is a life changing situation. Some people complete the journey, some don't for personal reasons, but you should respect all because you are still a woman. As you begin your walk down the path, you will find out things will change as it did for me. You need to have an understanding Therapist who will help you and a strong support group.

[Aprilrain]

Mackenzie, welcome to the sorority! Some of us are nice some of us are bitches ands some of us..... well it just depends on the day. (there's a lot of estrogen in here so watch out!)

and YOU thought the RLE was hazing for transsexuals....HA!, thats nothing!

[Frances]

It is also true that trans acceleration is VERY real. As you start down the path, your plan will change, and develop, and you will want to do more, sooner than you ever expected. For me it was a bit breath-taking. I used to feel very much like you describe... today I am saving money for SRS.

I have seen that over and over again: The snow ball effect.

[Kathryn Martin]

I see that over and over again. The snow ball effect.

I also completely agree with Hope. The snowball effect in most cases though is less one of accumulation but more one of taking the skins off. I have always felt this way but only late found the strengthy to uncover my real self to the world. When I decided to move forward I knew exactly where I needed to go.

[Badtranny]

I have seen that over and over again: The snow ball effect.

...and I agree with this as well. Probably the first lesson I learned when I started this process, after don't wear new heels to the mall, is the only thing you can depend on is how undependable your own feelings are going to be.

My transition is way ahead of schedule in regard to the "coming out" phase. I'm also considering staying in my current job. I am literally a different person now than I was in January and I never expected things to happen so fast. It's a TWO year plan dammit!

Anyhoo, I also want to add that Frances and I are FB friends now, and her little headshot pics are super duper cute.

[Starling]

...It is also true that trans acceleration is VERY real. As you start down the path, your plan will change, and develop, and you will want to do more, sooner than you ever expected...

Here's another amen to that! You will be off balance most of the time, Mackenzie, trying to distinguish reality from fantasy, fear from caution, expectation from self-delusion and hope from wishing. And once you have attained a modicum of confidence in your path, then come the diverse and unpredictable reactions from the people you tell, practical hurdles to overcome, and major snags that never occurred to you. And then you really get started.

So, to lighten things up a little, who will be the one to tell Mackenzie the short answer to the question, "What's the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual?"

:) Lallie

[Frances]

So, to lighten things up a little, who will be the one to tell Mackenzie the short answer to the question, "What's the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual?"

LOL! IBTLhahdahahahaha

[Starling]

...IBTL...

Thanks, Frances. That made me feel like a real insider. Or as we say, TMMFLARI.

:) Lallie

[Josie Rose]

I am currently considering the next physical stage of my transition: SRS. I am considering what I actually want and why I want it without reference to cost. It will probably be funded by the NHS anyway but, even if not, it is clearer to think independent of cost at this stage.

Requirements:
1. Removal of penis, scrotum and testicles: Definitely.

2. A clitoris with sensitivity: Definitely.

3. A clitoral hood: Definitely.

4. Labia: Definitely

5 A vagina: Hmmm? My problem!

Yes, I want a vulva that is cosmetically good but why do I need a vagina?

So that is where I am at.

The vagina presents the most difficult part of the SRS and also requires substantial post-surgical maintainance, manly dilation and cleansing. It is the feature with most post operative risks and required "patch ups". It is the most invasive part of the surgery and, if you are diabetic, it represents the possibility of severe healing problems.

What is a vagina for? In talks with natal women the more I learn is that they believe it is feature used for pleasure by men and most women obtain pleasure from elsewhere other than their vagina. Not all believe that, but a substantial majority of those I have spoken to do.

I am 63 and have been with my partner for 42+ years and married for 40 of them. She has no use for my having a vagina (and no use for my dysfunctional penis either). I can't see me wanting a male partner for anything other than curiosity.

So, given that I will be about 65 or more before SRS is performed, I face the prospect of spending my time of servicing a vagina in my late years for no reason whatsoever. Why do I need it?

Another point is one to do with SRS no matter how far you go. Who knows? Nobody, or very very few people know what you have in your groin and it will make no difference to the way you are treated.

I mentioned all this to my gender psychiatrist at the Charing Cross clininc in London. He was inclined to agree. He also added that:

1. A substantial number of people, although feeling happier and more "correct" with their neo-vulvas, were surprised that it made no difference to almost everybody.

2. There is a steady stream of post-ops returning to have their actual neo-vaginas removed because of the high maintenance involved and the problems encountered through not doing it.

Fortunately, I have a circle of girl friends, some of them trained counsellors, and a NHS psychotherapist always on hand to discuss this with. They are very helpful and concerned. Even so, the question "Do I want a vagina?" remains unanswered.

[Kathryn Martin]

...TMMFLARI....???

:) Lallie

IBTLhahdahahahaha??????????

[Frances]

IBTLhahdahahahaha??????????

In before the lock............

[Starling]

IGI. (I Googled it.)

:heehee: Lallie

[ReineD]

Is this forum really about transsexual people or is it just a place for people that are living in a fantasy world to come and pretend? I just want to know because I swear the few real people here get so much flack from the fantasy people that its a good question.

It's a place for people to ask questions. Everyone has to start somewhere.

Think of this. Say a newbie comes in with a similar question, except this person is deeply troubled with gender issues and has been all her life, but has taught herself to present a devil-may-care attitude. Maybe she's young! She is just beginning to crack open Pandora's Box, and she may not know how she feels or what questions to ask. You or someone else brushes her off because her questions aren't to your liking, and she becomes so desperate for having been rejected by the only people whom she feels she can relate to, that she does something harsh to herself, since she doesn't know where else to ask questions. Or, she stuffs everything back down for a few more years.

The only requirement here is to answer a newbie's question civilly, to the best of your ability. And if you don't feel like doing this, then don't post.

No one is in a position to judge the person behind the words, ever.

[Traci Elizabeth]

Josie Rose that is a very interesting perspective you have and I think you have made some valid points. Nevertheless, SRS is in my near future. But you are right on as I too have been married to a very wonderful understanding woman for a long time and she too has no use for me to have a vagina. Since I have been or HRT for 2 years now, sex has been out of the question for a long time which is good for both my wife and myself. So asking what good is the neo-vagina if you are not going to use it. And as you stated, it will be high maintenance. So why do it? I am in the group that feel it will make me whole. We shall see if that is true afterwords. My wife's concern is that after i get that vagina, I will want to experiment with it and use it. Openly I deny that fear my wife has, but down deep, I know she is right. Why have a vagina if you are not going to use it???? I am sure there are inter-sexed women who have been identified as female at birth that do not have functioning vaginas so does that make them less of a woman.

That debate (what defines a woman and WHEN are we "real" women) goes on here a lot and is likened to which came first the chicken or the egg? There is no answer to the chicken question just as there is no determining single factor that defines us as women or not!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

2. There is a steady stream of post-ops returning to have their actual neo-vaginas removed because of the high maintenance involved and the problems encountered through not doing it.




Is this really true? I'm asking ...how do you define steady stream?

[Beth-Lock]

This puts a new perspective on the discussion in the now-closed thread, "Do Seniors Need Gender Correction Surgery?" which assumed that GCS meant only surgery including vaginoplasty. The idea that seniors were a special case was first raised by Katesback who remarked in yet another thread, "Hell what does a 68 year old need a vagina for anyways? " While this stirred up a lot of controversy in that thread, there is a point or partial point worth arguing for it.

At the time I contemplated it, as "Being a senior myself, this question has posed itself to me. I did know personally a (never married) MTF TS who received her surgery at the age of 70. I have heard she enjoys sex as a woman now, and very much so. There are cases of GCS being performed for people significantly older than that.

Facing transition in one's senior years can result in suicidal depression (just) as it can if you do not go through (with it when you are younger). A person living in a state of uneasy and disrespectful coexistence with relatives, if in a toxic relationship with them, might be better off not alienate them further . . . but then they are unlikely to be real happy with their family in any case." But need transition include vaginoplasty in order for you to be better accepted? Getting rid of those extra parts that clutter up your silhoueete and make keeping your legs together less comfortable, may be all that is needed to make the MTFTS feel more comfortable about being a woman.

I am in the process of being evaluated for GCS right now. Some unmarried women have their vagina close up naturally, so having a vulva and not a working vagina is not entirely unnatural. The alternative of getting surgery just for having a vulva, seems like an interesting way of avoiding much of the downside of GCS. Certainly, a lot of time will be spent after having vaginoplasty, simply cleansing via three baths a day, and dilating just as frequently, so the recovery time, before gettting back to normal life should be less without it. When you are approaching or have reached the age of 70, avoiding the pain and effort of a substantial recovery time certainly should be factored in, as your remaining years becomes more precious at that time of life.

[Melody Moore]

There is a steady stream of post-ops returning to have their actual neo-vaginas removed because of the high maintenance involved and the problems encountered through not doing it.

Yeah really? in the past 5 years of hanging around the transgender community that is the first time I have heard such a
statement, Those that regret GRS/SRS usually regret gender transition, so I would like to know where this steady stream
of post-ops is. Show some facts to support your statements because I certainly won't ever believe the hearsay of others.

[Beth-Lock]

I can imagine, considering how doctors are reluctant to discuss their failures, that one might not hear of this except from a doctor who has inside information.

Certainly there has been at least one person on this board, complaining about side effects from vaginosplasty, in her case a fistula which proved resistant to remedial surgery, (if I can trust my memory.) Certainly this problem is well documented in the literature as a risk of vaginoplasty.

The fact that vaginoplasty is a high maintenance thing forever after, is something that has been discussed and the neo-vagina can even close up if dilation is not done conscientiously.

[JulieK1980]

Yeah really? in the past 5 years of hanging around the transgender community that is the first time I have heard such a
statement, Those that regret GRS/SRS usually regret gender transition, so I would like to know where this steady stream
of post-ops is. Show some facts to support your statements because I certainly won't ever believe the hearsay of others.

I've actually heard of this happening a few times in a few "scholarly" articles I've perused while in school. Usually these instances involve "non-compliance" of the treatment plan, or outright failure of the surgery though. Unfortunately for these women, it's not exactly simple to reverse. I haven't seen anything that would suggest it's a large number though, more or less, I'd label it as just one more risk among many of an often necessary surgery.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

doctors are reluctant to disclose......the girls are NOT reluctant...go to srs or ffs forums and read the wailing from people unhappy with surgery... but its all about complications and lack of follow up...not ts regret

the simple fact is complications happen...none of us want or deserve them... some doctors are better than others too...

isn't it important to separate the idea that some people are unsatisfied because a bad thing happened (a complication), some are unsatisfied because of unrealistic expectations, and the rest of us are more than content?

It's ok to fear the surgery. It seems like a practical reality that as you age, you may wonder what's the point..i can't answer that except to share my own experience...
i know that in my darker days, i was very obsessed with doing something before its too late...

i was ambivalent about srs, but i am so happy i did it... the feeling of completeness is real... i didnt expect it, but its there... so perhaps if you are older you may take this into account...its not about sex for me at all..i could take it or leave it...(and i must i admit i have taken it, and it was good..did i say that?) but its not something that was so important that i wanted surgery..the surgery was completely about me...

if you are transsexual, you will benefit from successful srs..regardless of your age...perhaps your age reduces the chance of successful srs...i don't know about that

[Beth-Lock]

if you are transsexual, you will benefit from successful srs..regardless of your age...

I notice Kaitlyn, you are in your forties according to your profile. I had in mind Seniors, which by my definition means those over 60-65, which I think is a fair cutoff, (no pun intended).

All I am saying is that Seniors may be a special case, in which the balance of arguments pro and con are shifted a little further towards the con end of the scale than if you are younger.

Getting back to the theme, if a vulva is adequate for many Seniors, this would in turn imply that the operation is a bit more cosmetic rather than functional, for many Seniors, though cosmetic issues can be psychologically very, very important.

The premier clinic in Thailand will not accept patients 65 or over for SRS.

[Melody Moore]

I've actually heard of this happening a few times in a few "scholarly" articles I've perused while in school. Usually these instances involve "non-compliance" of the treatment plan, or outright failure of the surgery though. Unfortunately for these women, it's not exactly simple to reverse. I haven't seen anything that would suggest it's a large number though, more or less, I'd label it as just one more risk among many of an often necessary surgery.
That is the way I see it as well. Doctors won't preform GRS/SRS unless you are prepared to accept the
risk and undertake the necessary post-op treatment plans and I fully accept that regular dilation will be
a necessary part of my routine post surgery and as you say it is not simple to reverse, in fact you will never
restore what was there. So people want to be really sure about GRS/SRS and not go into it blindly without
considering the risks and what maintenance is required. Usually those that rush into GRS/SRS and don't
follow the WPATH SoC properly is often the same group that end up regretting their decisions.

[JulieK1980]

That is the way I see it as well. Doctors won't preform GRS/SRS unless you are prepared to accept the
risk and undertake the necessary post-op treatment plans and I fully accept that regular dilation will be
a necessary part of my routine post surgery and as you say it is not simple to reverse, in fact you will never
restore what was there. So people want to be really sure about GRS/SRS and not go into it blindly without
considering the risks and what maintenance is required. Usually those that rush into GRS/SRS and don't
follow the WPATH SoC properly is often the same group that end up regretting their decisions.

Exactly right, and a perfect example of why it's important to understand what the procedure entails, and ask lots and lots and lots of questions of the surgeon, as well as your own independent research. It should go without saying that it's important to know it is required surgery for the individual undergoing it, and not just a want. Unfortunately not everyone takes the time to really figure that out, and cases like that can and do occur, as well as the occasional failure on the part of the surgeon. After all, even the most simplistic surgeries sometimes go wrong.

[Josie Rose]

Is this really true? I'm asking ...how do you define steady stream?


Yeah really? in the past 5 years of hanging around the transgender community that is the first time I have heard such a
statement, Those that regret GRS/SRS usually regret gender transition, so I would like to know where this steady stream
of post-ops is. Show some facts to support your statements because I certainly won't ever believe the hearsay of others.

Steady stream is just a phrase used by me and may have been an over flourish. I forget the actual words he used but he meant MORE than the odd one or two, but he did not quote any figures. The way he expressed it was something like "you would be surprised just how many return to have etc". Not my figures or my experience at all, just what I was told.

Don't shoot the messenger.

Anyway, even if only one or two return in dribs and drabs, the point HE makes (not me) is still valid; that some girls find the post op maintenance difficult to keep and finding no real use is made of their vaginas find it best to have it removed. This is the content of what he said but not his exact words.

I will ask him again when I see him in January.

[Josie Rose]

doctors are reluctant to disclose......the girls are NOT reluctant...go to srs or ffs forums and read the wailing from people unhappy with surgery... but its all about complications and lack of follow up...not ts regret

the simple fact is complications happen...none of us want or deserve them... some doctors are better than others too...

isn't it important to separate the idea that some people are unsatisfied because a bad thing happened (a complication), some are unsatisfied because of unrealistic expectations, and the rest of us are more than content?

It's ok to fear the surgery. It seems like a practical reality that as you age, you may wonder what's the point..i can't answer that except to share my own experience...
i know that in my darker days, i was very obsessed with doing something before its too late...

i was ambivalent about srs, but i am so happy i did it... the feeling of completeness is real... i didnt expect it, but its there... so perhaps if you are older you may take this into account...its not about sex for me at all..i could take it or leave it...(and i must i admit i have taken it, and it was good..did i say that?) but its not something that was so important that i wanted surgery..the surgery was completely about me...

if you are transsexual, you will benefit from successful srs..regardless of your age...perhaps your age reduces the chance of successful srs...i don't know about that

I would maintain that we do not come anywhere near complete even with vaginoplasty. Where is the cervix? Where is the uterus? Where are the fallopian tubes and ovaries? Where is the "wo"(mb) in woman?

The vagina is ALL about sex, it is what it is there for; an entry point for the penis and receptacle to supply semen to the cervix. However, in the normal course of life is largely invisible and irrelevant.

I'm not saying this as a criticism of what you said, but all these factors come to my mind as I try to make a decision. The balance between the desire to have, the feasibility to have and the real meaning to have.

I even wonder if my thinking only the "full kit" will suffice is a remnant of my masculine feelings not to miss out on the whole deal.

[Melody Moore]

Anyway, even if only one or two return in dribs and drabs, the point HE makes (not me) is still valid; that some girls find the post op maintenance difficult to keep and finding no real use is made of their vaginas find it best to have it removed. This is the content of what he said but not his exact words.
Josie, this is why people need to be 200% sure they are fully aware of everything going in for GRS/SRS,
Dribs and Drabs of information simply don't cut it when it comes to being worthwhile information about
such an important surgical procedures. This type of surgery isn't without it's risks and that is why I have
decided on a surgeon who gives a lifetime guarantee on his work just in case there was any complications.

Once my GRS/SRS is done, there is no way I would ever entertain the idea of having it removed, I would
insist that they fix up whatever f*ck up there is so there wasn't any issues and it will work for me.

[Josie Rose]

But need transition include vaginoplasty in order for you to be better accepted?

How does having a vaginoplasty make you better accepted? Again, not a criticism, but a thought that plays in my mind too. Nobody knows what is "in your pants" and plays no part at all in the daily acceptance by other people. They are simply unaware of it. Specifically, I am referring to the vagina, not the vulva, so there are no give away male bulges.

[Melody Moore]

I have to agree with you there Josie, we don't go around scrutinising each others genitalia like dogs do
and that is how I feel when I read comments that infer that GRS/SRS is vital to a certain person when
it comes to being a woman. As I have said previously, I fully intend to have GRS/SRS, but it only represents
about 10% of feeling complete as a woman. For me it is a vital component and the thought about not being
able to eventually get it causes me a lot of anxiety.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

josie you are "tilting at windmills".

basically it seems you've already made a decision and want to argue your case as to why you are right..
i don't care what you do.. i wish you the best..medical technology is what it is..i have experienced what i experienced...and i shared it..

i honestly couldn't care less about vagina/vulva/labia blah blah.... all that thinking goes away...would you like that thinking to go away?? and just feel like yourself??
i can pretty much guarantee it will go away if you are ts and you get the same surgery..
who knows how people feel that get bulge reduction surgery? if anyone has done that, pls chime in...
have your surgery the way you want it, and move on

but how can you say you are actually weighing the benefits and then say to someone that shared their experience that it's not valid?
that bugs me...
feel free to worry about the inability of a recreating a cervix(they can't put me back in high school to experience that as female, i guess i shouldn't bother with transition), feel free to believe in a steady stream of girls you heard about from someone.(which i think is bs)..nobody is shooting you...the vagina is just a penis receptacle??? LOL...of course what woman would ever want to have that?? i think you have some soul searching to do around that one
You don't have to justify it to anyone but yourself..

beth..i completely agree with you.. at each of our particular ages we have to weigh the benefits... i was pleasantly surprised by how i felt afterwards, and i bet alot of women here say the same thing..
you may feel that at your stage in life, you don't need to go through all that... i can definitely sympathize with that..
it's all up to how you feel about your body and your self image a

[Katesback]

Once again this forum does not let me down on the entertainment. Literally there is not one place I can think of where one can sit and read the stuff that comes off peoples minds like it does here. The best one recently was that a steay stream of post ops are getting thier vaginas closed up. One went on to advance the idea that having a vagina is a LOT of work.

This stuff is priceless. I mean seriously. I guess that means that since the vagina is a lot of work its better to just keep the penis because its easier. I personally dont do a lot of work to maintain my vagina but hey I suppose if I had a penis it would be easier. Perhaps I should just jump on the bandwagon and get my vagina closed up.

In retrospect I should have just saved my money and kept my penis and thrown on a wig, some ill fitting ****ty clothing and five inch heels. Forgetand hormone therapy. I mean I could have taken the easy way and done it that way. I mean I am a woman if I say I am right? The easy way does seem like the more fruitful approach. By the way since I can be whatever I want since it is in my mind I also want to be a zebra. Please afford me the benefit of the doubt even though you see no hoofs or tail or strips. I am whatever I feel I am in my mind damm it.

[JulieK1980]

The choice a person makes in regards to SRS is a personal one, and one that is serious and should never be taken lightly. Whatever the choice is for the individual it is not for others to judge. We are each individuals, and wherever we fall on that TS spectrum (or insert personal belief of transgenderism here) it is a decision made for ourselves, as no one here can truly understand all of our unique situations. What is right for one person is most certainly not necessarily right for another, and no calling us freaks, or any other vitriolic nonsense will change that or even make it true for that matter. For some SRS is a requirement for them to thrive in the world, for others it is not. It doesn't make them "fake" or "pretend" it makes them different. It's sad and a little pathetic to read that here on a forum that is supposed to be for support.

[ReineD]

I am whatever I feel I am in my mind damm it.

Yes, you are, as are the rest of us. And you know what? It is constantly evolving. That's the beauty of it.

[Stephenie S]

OMG, what tripe!!!

Please, please, please, will pre-ops STOP talking like they know everything about what post-op is all about.

You DON'T know what it's all about. You don't. No one is attacking your sense of woman hood. We all know you feel that just as strongly as you think you do.

Post-op is something wonderful and beautiful. It does not need to be called elitist, nor holier than thou.

There are a significant number of gatekeepers (all male, I might venture to guess) who make statements like "a steady stream" of transexuals wanting to get sewn up. What a pile of unholy bull twaddle.

This whole business started several months ago when Kate stated that the REAL job of becoming a woman STARTS with surgery. She happened to be right. Ask ANY transgendered woman. This does NOT demean any pre-op nor their personal feelings about their gender identity. It just states a FACT. This is a fact you cannot know unless you:

A. Believe a post-op.
B. Experience it for yourself.

If indeed you do have surgery you will understand. Otherwise you have to believe someone with more experience than you, or continue on in ignorance.

Having a penis colors your whole life. The litmus test for femaleness starts with having a vagina. Ask any maternity doc. Penis = male. Vagina = female. This concept is ingrained in our society. It's ingrained in your head.

Does a pre-op feel feminine? Oh, you betcha. Every post-op has been there and done that. But the difference between hiding a penis and having a vagina is immeasurable. And, clearly, at least on this forum, indescribable.

Remember, every single post-op has had the experience of being both a pre-op and a post-op. Every single pre-op has only the experience of being pre-op.

S

[Hope]

How does having a vaginoplasty make you better accepted? Again, not a criticism, but a thought that plays in my mind too. Nobody knows what is "in your pants" and plays no part at all in the daily acceptance by other people. They are simply unaware of it. Specifically, I am referring to the vagina, not the vulva, so there are no give away male bulges.

You are certainly right that very few people will ever KNOW for certain one way or another what is in your panties. And hopefully those who do know are mature enough to be discrete about it.

But here is where it matters: You know.

I have come to the conclusion that passing, that seriously making this work is about 50% attitude, and 40% acquired skill, and less than 10 percent has to do with the roll of the genetic dice and the physical features you were given to work with.

You can learn all the tricks, you can be a master make-up artist, you can have a splendid wardrobe, and you can have all the surgery on all of the normally visible parts of your body you want... You could be 5'4, 110#, 34C boobs, with perfect hair and look completely indistinguishable from any other cis girl in the world... But if YOU don't believe it, if you don't KNOW it, if you have doubts about your identity (and lets be honest - all of us have SOME doubt) you will not be able to make this work, some fraction of the 50% that is attitude will be missing.

For some of us, having the proper equipment makes us feel complete, and proper, and "right" and that allows us to claim that full 50%... and go on with our lives. Some of us feel differently and are completely comfortable and confident w/o all the usual equipment... To which I say - "brava!" But I think that for most of us walking around with the wrong equipment - we may be the only ones who know - but we know, and that has an effect on the way we interact with the world.

And I guess that is my point - if having the wrong kit makes you feel like a fraud... even if ONLY you know - it still matters.

[ReineD]

I keep interjecting these little, nicey-nicey statements in here oblivious of what you all are talking about. But after reading Hope's post, a thought occurred to me so I'll post it at the risk of sounding like a complete idiot.

Let's remove gender from the equation for a moment and talk about nose jobs. Two people have large noses. One feels hopelessly self-conscious about it to the point it affects the way she deals with people. She won't look them in the eye, because she thinks all they see is her nose. This person would make the absolute best decision for herself if she gets rhinoplasty. The other person doesn't care less what her nose looks like. She doesn't need the surgery.

Ultimately, surgery benefits the person receiving it and contributes to her own happiness, not anyone else's. Why can't two transwomen, both of whom feel they are women to their core, each decide what is best for them? How can one person decide for the other that she will not be happy unless she has surgery? I think the only point on which anyone can be sure, is how the surgery will affect their own well-being. Also, things change. Someone may not want the surgery for herself now, but change her mind later as she becomes entrenched in being who she is?

[Stephenie S]

Why not, Reine?

Because having a penis colors your whole life. Sure, no one else needs know. Well, your doctor and your lover will know. AND YOU WILL KNOW. A penis and a vagina are the ultimate sex differentiations. Noses are not. Guys have penises, girls have vaginas. It's as simple as that.

Can someone FEEL feminine or masculine with the wrong equipment? Sure. But they aren't. In the end, when you drop your jeans, a pre-op has a penis, a post-op has a vagina. And it's incredibly deterministic to their self awareness.

Don't you think, Reine, that you would feel and act differently if you had a penis? Don't you think it would color your whole life? How feminine would YOU feel with a penis dangling between your legs? I'm gonna come down on the yes side of that question.

I'm gonna state this again. The real job of becoming a woman STARTS with having a vagina. It's just a fact. Do pre-ops feel feminine? Yes they do. Many live and work 24/7 as women. I can't denigrate that self awareness. But there's that old bugaboo, the penis, hanging down there. There is the constant self awareness that with that penis you will be placed in a particular hospital bed, a particular prison or jail cell, a particular nursing home bed when you get that far, and hated and judged for your possession of that penis by a significantly large segment of our population. Your doctor will treat you differently. Your drinking buds will treat you differently if they find out. The paramedic will treat you differently after you have a motor vehicle accident. The ER will treat you differently when you have a heart attack. It's not quite as simple as just saying, "I know I am a woman, therefor I am". You can't always DEMAND admission to the girl's club.

OK, I have said enough. I know this will offend some. I hope not too many. It's not meant to offend. It's meant to educate.

S

[Starling]

...Ask any maternity doc. Penis = male. Vagina = female...

Well, ask any gender doc and they will disagree; they will say gender is in your brain, not your genitals. And no offense meant to the post-ops here, but what they have is not the sort of vagina that a maternity doc sees.

Let me be clear: I feel I am a woman; I'd be much happier without my male parts; and I want to have SRS if I can swing it. Because it is my desire and my goal, and because I know what inner turmoil must be overcome, I have immense respect for women who have beat the odds and made it to the next plateau.

I believe you when you say pre-ops can't possibly know what it's like to be post-op; I mean, it's obvious on the face of it. But if you shanghaied a happy male and gave him a vaginoplasty, he'd still be male, and very pissed-off. It's because you are already female that obtaining a beautiful vagina feels so profoundly fulfilling.

:) Lallie

PS: Stephenie, you powerfully describe living as a woman with a vagina as far less stressful, so I wonder why after SRS is when "the hard work" starts. It seems more like the reward than the task. Don't think I haven't imagined scenes of medical humiliation, of the dread of losing my physical autonomy; but that's a nightmare a lot of us must face with a certain degree of stoicism, if we can't get SRS.

[Katesback]

What is a gender doc? Do you mean doctor that works with trans people doing SRS? If so umm do you realize he will say whatever it takes to put $ in his pocket.


QUOTE=LALady;2631961]Well, ask any gender doc and they will disagree; they will say gender is in your brain, not your genitals. And no offense meant to the post-ops here, but what they have is not the sort of vagina that a maternity doc sees.

Let me be clear: I feel I am a woman; I'd be much happier without my male parts; and I want to have SRS if I can swing it. Because it is my desire and my goal, and because I know what inner turmoil must be overcome, I have immense respect for women who have beat the odds and made it to the next plateau.

I believe you when you say pre-ops can't possibly know what it's like to be post-op; I mean, it's obvious on the face of it. But if you shanghaied a happy male and gave him a vaginoplasty, he'd still be male, and very pissed-off. It's because you are already female that obtaining a beautiful vagina feels so profoundly fulfilling.

:) Lallie

PS: Stephenie, you powerfully describe living as a woman with a vagina as far less stressful, so I wonder why after SRS is when "the hard work" starts. It seems more like the reward than the task. Don't think I haven't imagined scenes of medical humiliation, of the dread of losing my physical autonomy; but that's a nightmare a lot of us must face with a certain degree of stoicism, if we can't get SRS.[/QUOTE]

[Kathryn Martin]

Well, ask any gender doc and they will disagree; ....
:) Lallie

PS: Stephenie, you powerfully describe living as a woman with a vagina as far less stressful, so I wonder why after SRS is when "the hard work" starts. It seems more like the reward than the task. Don't think I haven't imagined scenes of medical humiliation, of the dread of losing my physical autonomy; but that's a nightmare a lot of us must face with a certain degree of stoicism, if we can't get SRS.

As long as you think that sex and gender are the same thing it is hard to understand. As long as you equate feminine with being female, how can you understand why the "hard work" begins after surgery. Feeling feminine and dressing as a female is not the same than being female and seeking congruence.

By the way I am a pre-op woman.

[Melody Moore]

I watched an episode of Embarassing Bodies last night and there was a woman born without a uterus
does that mean that she isn't really a woman. And what about my own situation being intersex?
Biologically I am MORE female than most of the post ops here, but because the doctors decided to
remove my female reproductive system does that mean that I am not a female? Some of you really
need to wake up to yourselves because I am sure some of you cannot see past your own noses...

Fact: Your gender or sex is NOT defined by what is between your legs & thousands of
intersex people born around the world continue to prove that fact time & time again. If
you want to bring "biological sex" into it then none of you are females except me & Reine.

And this stupid statement "the real job of becoming a woman STARTS with having a vagina".

Show me one person who has had GRS/SRS without transitioning and being on hormone therapy first?

[Starling]

What is a gender doc? Do you mean doctor that works with trans people doing SRS? If so umm do you realize he will say whatever it takes to put $ in his pocket....

By "gender doc" I mean a gender specialist, academic or clinical--one who has studied the nature of gender and/or counsels people with gender dysphoria. I know you are cynical about them, but the apparent success of your own psychotherapy-free transition does not diminish the value of scholarly exploration of the phenomenon for the purpose of helping more people more effectively.

:) Lallie

[Starling]

As long as you think that sex and gender are the same thing it is hard to understand. As long as you equate feminine with being female, how can you understand why the "hard work" begins after surgery. Feeling feminine and dressing as a female is not the same than being female and seeking congruence.

By the way I am a pre-op woman.

I don't think sex and gender are the same thing, Kathryn. Where did you get that in what I said? I think I'm pretty much like you, except you're further along and have a supportive SO. I began seeking congruence long before I knew the special TS sense of the word, and I never use the term "feminine." I avoid trying to be feminine, if that means to mimic stereotypic female behavior. I have learned to trust my core.

I dress in order to help being accepted as the woman I am, and my next milestone will be dressing full time. I seek to reify myself in every way I can. I consider myself pre-op, until the universe says otherwise.

:) Lallie

[Amber99]

(you will be put in a women's' prison for example)...etc...

Wow I didn't know that, that's good!

[Beth-Lock]

Though public opinion may be changing, a lot of acquaintances will be more comfortable and accepting of your new gender if you have had gender correction surgery. That is just a fact.

And even the Standards of Care mention tfelt tendency for TS to be comfortable and accepted in locker rooms, etc., if they at least look biologically female, for which a vuvlva rather than a vagina might be sufficient.

In a romantic or sexual relationship, many men will not accept a post-op as being female enough to satisfy them.

Conclusion: Being TS isubjects you to a complex social situation and a precarious one, no matter what.

(Supplementary observation: What a magnificent debate!)

[Frances]

Things I have learned from this thread: Vaginoplasty is an unnecessary comestic medical procedure that is all about sex.

[Melody Moore]

Though public opinion may be changing, a lot of acquaintances will be more comfortable and accepting of your new gender if you have had gender correction surgery. That is just a fact.
How can it be a fact?

Do natal women go around saying "I have a vagina, so you MUST accept me as a woman"?

If you think they do, then you need to take a reality check. I am just one, but I
am not the only natal born female with a penis, there are quite a few of us around,

People will feel more comfortable being around you if you are simply a good person who is true
to who you are - not by what is between your legs. This argument is well and truly worn out.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

What is just so incredibly obnoxious about this discussion is the following..

The people that are howling are the people that have not had surgery..don't want surgery, or want some partial surgery and are trying to justify their decisions...they ask questions and make assertions

and when women come here and say , well i had the surgery, and here's what it did for me, i am living full time in gender conformity for the first time, and here's what its like
they get treated like monty python arguement clinic..."no you didnt"....

its bs... maybe everyone that had surgery should leave


if you are transsexual you will benefit from srs surgery, it is a proven state of the art procedure that has fundamentally changed 1000's and 1000's of lives.. it has been described in detail from a physical and emotional level almost universally as a wonderful thing by people that had the surgery (barring complications)... if you are too old, too mentally unstable, too poor or too sick you may not get be able to get this surgery...but it doesnt mean you arent a transsexual or a woman (however you like to id yourself)..

I really feel sorry for you if you are making excuses and roadblocks for yourself...i have been there..that's what drives me to post my experience..
analyzing yourself and dealing with all that inner crap IS the problem...if you'd rather make up excuses why you don't want the buzzing to go away, that's fine, but what do you gain by arguing with me about what i actually experienced?

[Frances]

Though public opinion may be changing, a lot of acquaintances will be more comfortable and accepting of your new gender if you have had gender correction surgery. That is just a fact.


How can it be a fact?

Do natal women go around saying "I have a vagina, so you MUST accept me as a woman"?

If you think they do, then you need to take a reality check. I am just one, but I
am not the only natal born female with a penis, there are quite a few of us around,

People will feel more comfortable being around you if you are simply a good person who is true
to who you are - not by what is between your legs. This argument is well and truly worn out.

In my experience, acquaintances who know that I have had SRS are way more comfortable around me. Men that shook my hand before and looked at the ground, now kiss me on the cheek and make eye-contact. Beth-Lock said acquaintances, not strangers.

[Stephenie S]

Melody wrote:

"Do natal women go around saying "I have a vagina, so you MUST accept me as a woman"

Perhaps, perhaps not. But they certainly COULD say that. Mostly, they don't have to.

But the naysayers in this thread ARE going around saying, "I have a penis, but because I demand it, you MUST accept me as a woman".

I know the old saw: "It's what's between you ears, not what's between your legs." I even used that line on occasion. But it's not quite true. What's between your legs DOES matter. Again, ask ANY post-op. And were you to ask any "Gender" doc. They would tell you the same thing. They make their living satisfying the needs of those who must have congruency.

This argument may be worn out, but not from the application of reality. It's worn out by the rantings of those unwilling to learn from those who have gone before.

S

[Katesback]

Maybe you were onto something when ya said "too mentally unstable". Perhaps thats a good reason for a lot of people to not get srs.

Post op girls why are you argueing with the pre girls? You remember what its like being pre. You remember how you knew it all, had your doors closed off to disending opinions, you remember that. These people KNOW what they are talking about because they have crystal balls. They are like teenagers back talking to thier parents thinking they know it all. Of course if your post op you know they are full of it but hey let them ramble on about how they know what they are talking about. It is truely entertaining. What is sad thought is that some of these know it all people become activits and trans mommies and guide the new recruits. That makes me cringe thinking about all the poor advice and informantion being spread. I wonder how many new recruits are learning that a "steady stream of post op girls are getting thier vaginas closed".





What is just so incredibly obnoxious about this discussion is the following..

The people that are howling are the people that have not had surgery..don't want surgery, or want some partial surgery and are trying to justify their decisions...they ask questions and make assertions

and when women come here and say , well i had the surgery, and here's what it did for me, i am living full time in gender conformity for the first time, and here's what its like
they get treated like monty python arguement clinic..."no you didnt"....

its bs... maybe everyone that had surgery should leave


if you are transsexual you will benefit from srs surgery, it is a proven state of the art procedure that has fundamentally changed 1000's and 1000's of lives.. it has been described in detail from a physical and emotional level almost universally as a wonderful thing by people that had the surgery (barring complications)... if you are too old, too mentally unstable, too poor or too sick you may not get be able to get this surgery...but it doesnt mean you arent a transsexual or a woman (however you like to id yourself)..

I really feel sorry for you if you are making excuses and roadblocks for yourself...i have been there..that's what drives me to post my experience..
analyzing yourself and dealing with all that inner crap IS the problem...if you'd rather make up excuses why you don't want the buzzing to go away, that's fine, but what do you gain by arguing with me about what i actually experienced?

[Stephenie S]

LALady wrote:

"PS: Stephenie, you powerfully describe living as a woman with a vagina as far less stressful, so I wonder why after SRS is when "the hard work" starts. It seems more like the reward than the task. Don't think I haven't imagined scenes of medical humiliation, of the dread of losing my physical autonomy; but that's a nightmare a lot of us must face with a certain degree of stoicism, if we can't get SRS."

I didn't use the term "hard work", I said "then the real work of becoming a woman starts". And I didn't actually say that, Kate did. I just agreed with her. I said, "Kate's right, you know." The real work of becoming a woman starts with SRS. And it's joyful work, not hard work. Oh, it can be hard. It's not really easy. It will take a while, this beginning of life. But begin it does.

It's like, OMG, so THIS is what having a vagina is like! And you realize that no matter HOW fully formed you felt BEFORE surgery, no matter HOW complete and defined you felt BEFORE surgery, no matter how unimportant it seemed to be to carry around your hidden badge of masculinity, now it's gone and OMG, now you can stop pretending and get on with the real work of becoming a woman.

That's just what happens. Honest. I'm not sugar coating anything. I'm not pulling any punches in order to respect your tender sensibilities. I'm not acting nice 'cause that's what my mother taught me. I'm just laying it out there. It's not opinion. It's fact.

Sure it's a reward. But it's not the end. It's the beginning. You're not done. You're just starting. Why, Oh why, are you denying this? Why are you fighting it so hard? Whatever are you afraid of? It's WONDERFUL.

S

[Stephenie S]

Now I guess I will take my friend Kate's advice and stop. Gotta get on with my day. Good luck with this, all.

Stephie

[ReineD]

There is the constant self awareness that with that penis you will be placed in a particular hospital bed, a particular prison or jail cell, a particular nursing home bed when you get that far, and hated and judged for your possession of that penis by a significantly large segment of our population.

Thanks, Stephenie. I've no doubt that SRS is a much, much more than mere cosmetic surgery. I'm convinced it is life changing as well.

It wasn't my intent to minimize the seriousness of SRS by comparing it to rhinoplasty. I was rather trying to illustrate the concept of choice, vs. a different surgery where the choice to not have it would condemn a person to a sure death, for example a liver transplant or triple bypass. My point was, if a transwoman is in her 60s, has been married for 40 years and is not interested in any other relationship even if she becomes widowed, or if she has medical issues or, has no hope for various reasons of obtaining funds for SRS, or even if she is at the beginning of her journey and is not done peeling back all the onion layers, why do some post-ops doubt her gender?

Now ... if post-ops are arguing in favor of reality and they're rather pointing out that non-ops would be sent to a male prison, that's fine. But, other than passing on legal information, why does it matter so much what someone else chooses to do with their life? The arguments about this get rather intense here and some comments are downright insulting.

I'm dead set against smoking cigarettes. But, should one of my sons take up the habit, I would tell them I disapprove but then I'd have no other choice but to let it go, no matter how much I would fear for their health or how devastating it would be to me should they get lung cancer. It is their life to live.

[Melody Moore]

Now ... if post-ops are arguing in favor of reality and they're rather pointing out that non-ops would be sent to a male prison, that's fine. But, other than passing on legal information, why does it matter so much what someone else chooses to do with their life? The arguments about this get rather intense here and some comments are downright insulting.
Reine that is what I cannot work out about some of the post ops here, is why can't they simply respect a
person's right to live how ever they feel is right for them? While I don't necessarily agree with their decisions
I am in no position to judge them or try and tell them what to do. And you are right, some of the comments
here are very insulting, even to me and I fully intend to have GRS/SRS as soon as I have saved enough money.

Irrespective of GRS/SRS I still have friends from all walk of life, even the local Mayor and other Cairns Regional Council
are now good friends with me. I also know lots of LGBTIQ people, but I also know a lot more of every-day heterosexual
people as well and that is also who live with by the way. My life is no different to any other woman, noone treats me
any differently, I get straight guys coming up kissing and cuddling me without any problems, some of whom even know
I am pre-op, but they don't even think about that or let it be an issue. So where is the handicap by not having GRS/SRS?

But having said that, I am not saying that there won't be benefits for me to have surgery because I know that it is right
for me. The reality is I am in no position to say that it is right for someone else and I won't go putting them on guilt trips
or trying to make them feel bad because they don't share the same ideology as me. In fact I see there are other reasons
behind why my view point is also different - while it isn't perfect yet, I do live in a more accepting society that isn't so
judgemental about other people for a start, and a place where there are laws in place to protect gender rights.

Attitudes towards transgender people and the laws that protect or incarcerate them vary from state to state and
country to country. So these generalised statement don't help anyone to understand the the true reality of being
a woman, these are completely unnecessary statements intended to put fear into pre-op transsexual females.

It is NOT always true that you get sent to a male prison if you a pre-op MtF Transsexual, they have tried that here
and realised it wasn't a good idea after a trans woman hung herself after being repeatedly raped here in Australia. So
human rights groups have stepped in some time ago to make sure that never happens again. Pre-op trans-women are
housed in the correct facility that matches there legal gender identity. You only need to be legally identified in your
documentation, such as a drivers licence with the gender marker changed to be able to do that. Today you can even
have your passport changed. So if you can be legally identified as a female, then you will go to a female prison here.

I also refused to allow the hospital to put me in any wards with males when I was in hospital late last year when they
first questioned me about my change in gender to my medical records. I showed them my new female ID and their attitude
changed in an instant. They gave a private room in female surgical wards so I even more comfortable. Also the Ambulance
crew who transported me to hospital and all the staff were fantastic. I was so treated with all the respect and courtesy of
a lady the whole time - no discrimination ever anywhere :D

So yeah, I still want to know where the big handicap in my life as a woman is because I haven't had my GRS/SRS yet?

[chloe23]

Reine that is what I cannot work out about some of the post ops here, is why can't they simply respect a
person's right to live how ever they feel is right for them? While I don't necessarily agree with their decisions
I am in no position to judge them or try and tell them what to do. And you are right, some of the comments
here are very insulting, even to me and I fully intend to have GRS/SRS as soon as I have saved enough money.


I agree with you on this Melody. People should respect one another for their personal decisions. We all have different personalities, think different, our emotions are different, but we should respect one another.

As someone who has lived on both sides of the fence, i don't think it's fair to insult anybody for their personal choices. This is suppose to be a support site for Pre-Op's and Post-op's. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but don't do it in an insulting way. Transition was very hard and expensive for me so i know where I'm coming from.

[Sophora]

Maybe you were onto something when ya said "too mentally unstable". Perhaps thats a good reason for a lot of people to not get srs.

Post op girls why are you argueing with the pre girls? You remember what its like being pre. You remember how you knew it all, had your doors closed off to disending opinions, you remember that. These people KNOW what they are talking about because they have crystal balls. They are like teenagers back talking to thier parents thinking they know it all. Of course if your post op you know they are full of it but hey let them ramble on about how they know what they are talking about. It is truely entertaining. What is sad thought is that some of these know it all people become activits and trans mommies and guide the new recruits. That makes me cringe thinking about all the poor advice and informantion being spread. I wonder how many new recruits are learning that a "steady stream of post op girls are getting thier vaginas closed".

You do know that it isn't all of the pre-ops that doing this right? There are plenty of us pre-ops that soak in every bit of information that obtained and use it. however, there are some of pre-ops that have to save and do things at the pace of whatever money we have. I have a lot of other stuff to worry about right now then whether or not I have the money to get a surgery that is the equivalent of buying a new car(it can be be more than that tho). If I was independently wealthy, I would be on hormones by now and have my surgery schedule for christmas time next year or my birthday(which is a little over 6 months sooner). Alas, I am not. I have a lot to deal with before I get to that point.

However, I do wonder why most tranpeople want to just "pass" at being the other gender whether than being that gender. for me I would rather "be" a woman then "pass" as one(including having the right equipment). But this is just me, I can't speak for anyone else tho.

[Starling]

...I do wonder why most tranpeople want to just "pass" at being the other gender whether than being that gender. for me I would rather "be" a woman then "pass" as one(including having the right equipment)...

Gender is not the same as sex. "Passing" is just another way of saying "being accepted as." There are, for instance, a small number of post-op women who live as men. Their sex is female, but they "pass" for male. And many FTMs live as men without having bottom surgery, because it is not as successful as MTF SRS.

Nonetheless, I can't deny that it's better to have congruent equipment for any number of reasons, both practical and emotional, and I believe it when post-ops say it's an epiphany. I'd love to wake up in the recovery room with a brand-new vagina; and the reason I want one is that I'm already a woman.

:) Lallie

[Frances]

Nonetheless, I can't deny that it's better to have congruent equipment for any number of reasons, both practical and emotional, and I believe it when post-ops say it's an epiphany. I'd love to wake up in the recovery room with a brand-new vagina; and the reason I want one is that I'm already a woman.

I did not wake up feeling any different. As a matter of fact, I did not wake up at all, the surgery was done under epidural, and I was awake the whole time. The epiphany came slowly over time as I started lowering the shield I had built up from being an incongruent woman who passed very well while knowing and feeling that something was very different.

As I did not have to protect a secret identity (and this is done subconsciouly), I started really interacting with the world as a woman, freely and without guilt. I am still learning everyday what it means to be a woman in various situations. And this happened because I no longer focused on physical transition. Before, I would stand back a little and think about the things that had to be done in my transition instead of being in the moment. Now, I am ready to open up, figuratively and literally.

[Starling]

Thank you so much for that, Frances.

:) Lallie

[Kaitlyn Michele]

yes frances thank you...

for some reason knowing that if all my clothes fell off in the middle of the mall i would still be considered a woman is very comforting to me...its not an active thought...

another thing i feel is that over the years, i never ever ever felt attractive to anyone, forget how i looked at myself...i could buff up, get fat, whatever, it made me uncomfortable when people looked at me...how sad..

now i enjoy being looked at, and although its unlikely, it feels possible that someone would actually be attracted to me...i'd be excited if someone felt attracted to me instead of ashamed..

these are just different ways of saying the same thing i think...

[Aprilrain]

I did not wake up feeling any different. As a matter of fact, I did not wake up at all, the surgery was done under epidural, and I was awake the whole time. The epiphany came slowly over time as I started lowering the shield I had built up from being an incongruent woman who passed very well while knowing and feeling that something was very different.

As I did not have to protect a secret identity (and this is done subconsciouly), I started really interacting with the world as a woman, freely and without guilt. I am still learning everyday what it means to be a woman in various situations. And this happened because I no longer focused on physical transition. Before, I would stand back a little and think about the things that had to be done in my transition instead of being in the moment. Now, I am ready to open up, figuratively and literally.

I really appreciate it when a Post Op takes the time to explain their personal experience with SRS or life after SRS it really helps me. I can totally relate to the feels of guilt! and when i see my male body I think "what's the use or who do I think I'm kidding" it must be powerfully reassuring to KNOW that all the parts right and to see that with your own eyes and feel it with your own hands not just imagine how it would be, how it SHOULD be!

[Kathryn Martin]

I don't think sex and gender are the same thing, Kathryn. Where did you get that in what I said? I think I'm pretty much like you, except you're further along and have a supportive SO. I began seeking congruence long before I knew the special TS sense of the word, and I never use the term "feminine." I avoid trying to be feminine, if that means to mimic stereotypic female behavior. I have learned to trust my core.

I dress in order to help being accepted as the woman I am, and my next milestone will be dressing full time. I seek to reify myself in every way I can. I consider myself pre-op, until the universe says otherwise.

:) Lallie

I thought that you would say what you said here. I think that one of the most difficult things to understand though is the complete change of body chemistry, which essentially begins after surgery (i.e. the difference between suppressed testosterone and absence of testosterone), the dismantling of male sexual aggression and the building of female sexual surrender, and finally the disrobing from male privilege. Many of the experiences that I have had over the last year and a quarter is as if I am immersed in content but incapable of yet speaking the language. Being a woman since as far back as I can remember, I relied on learned behavior to meet the expectations that my world confronted me with. Now at times I feel like a lost child because I have to learn the language to express what I never could express before. That, I believe is the "hard work" that begins after all of the congruence issues and steps have been completed.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I thought that you would say what you said here. I think that one of the most difficult things to understand though is the complete change of body chemistry, which essentially begins after surgery (i.e. the difference between suppressed testosterone and absence of testosterone), the dismantling of male sexual aggression and the building of female sexual surrender, and finally the disrobing from male privilege. Many of the experiences that I have had over the last year and a quarter is as if I am immersed in content but incapable of yet speaking the language. Being a woman since as far back as I can remember, I relied on learned behavior to meet the expectations that my world confronted me with. Now at times I feel like a lost child because I have to learn the language to express what I never could express before. That, I believe is the "hard work" that begins after all of the congruence issues and steps have been completed.

Kathryn that was a very lurid and compelling post...
dismantling the male sexual aggression...female sexual surrender are not how I would describe it,
making it about sexual surrender is i think something you may be more focused on than many..or else i am focused on it less than many!!! LOL

anyway, I think maybe the basic concept of destruction of something that was an incredible burden....(its a huge weight, which is probably something every single person can agree on!!even though we are all VERY different) and then the creation of something else that replaces it....and its not a burden at all, and then completeness..and then life. makes sense , right??

[Jessinthesprings]

For me, the surgery has always been something I've wanted. At times it was more important than anything, but as I have grown older I have realized that what is in my pants is not the first thing people see. So my primary focus is FFS right now. I would prefer to blend in as much as possible. I know what is inside but, there is nothing worse than being treated like a man in dress. Is hideing the deformaty uncomfortable? You bet. But, at this point in time there are more pressing concerns.

[Kathryn Martin]

Kathryn that was a very lurid and compelling post...
dismantling the male sexual aggression...female sexual surrender are not how I would describe it,
making it about sexual surrender is i think something you may be more focused on than many..or else i am focused on it less than many!!! LOL

anyway, I think maybe the basic concept of destruction of something that was an incredible burden....(its a huge weight, which is probably something every single person can agree on!!even though we are all VERY different) and then the creation of something else that replaces it....and its not a burden at all, and then completeness..and then life. makes sense , right??

Yes Kaitlyn, right, one caveat though "female sexual surrender", wrong language for what I am attempting to express it is not about sexual surrender but creating the space to be filled, not physically, but an opening emotion, a gesture. It is my gesture but in a sense I cannot execute it yet....

[Melody Moore]

Thanks for your reply Frances.

You raise a very important issue and the reason behind why I personally want GRS/SRS. I do feel
uncomfortable about being pre-op but I do not feel at all guilty about it, because I know it was
never my choice why I am the way I am. As far as I am concerned, people either deal with it of
they don't. This is the way I have learnt to cope with it and feel as happy and comfortable as I
can be while I am still pre-op. I really don't see any sense at all in making life anymore harder than
it already is. Being pre-op hasn't really presented itself as any sort of a hurdle for me and the only
time I really feel any grief about it is when I am on this forum and we get into these long drawn
out arguments about this issue.

I just got a message from a member of this forum who shall remain unnamed just sent me this PM and I think it really highlights how
uncomfortable some of the post-op girls make others who are are also struggling to feel. This is a really sad reflection of how helpful
certain members of this forum really are...


I just wanted to say thank you for your posts. I have a lot of respect for you, and you seem very well informed. I probably won't be posting in the transsexual forum anymore, (I simply can't stomach the "it's my way or your a freak" mentality of so many there.) But, I wanted to let you know, it's refreshing to see your posts that are thought out and well informed. :)

Frances, I really appreciate the way you have reached inside to bring your inner most feelings out and put it
in a context where others will listen to why you are much happier after having GRS/SRS. You have never once
tried to belittle others with any of your comments and I really do appreciate that. However there are a few here
I think that need to tone it right down in how they speak to other members of this forum because it only serves
to drive other people away.

So thank you :hugs: Xx

[Sophora]

You raise a very important issue and the reason behind why I personally want GRS/SRS. I do feel
uncomfortable about being pre-op but I do not feel at all guilty about it, because I know it was
never my choice why I am the way I am. As far as I am concerned, people either deal with it of
they don't. This is the way I have learnt to cope with it and feel as happy and comfortable as I
can be while I am still pre-op. I really don't see any sense at all in making life anymore harder than
it already is.


*hugs* Melody you are truly my sister. This is how I feel. I wish I could communicate that better than I do. I live my life as a woman now regardless of what the gender markers say. I have never had to deal with some of the bigotry(except from within my own family...grrr)from the outside world that a lot of the girls here do. I get "ma'am" and "she" all the time now even when I am not dressed. Maybe that is why I don't even think about "passing" and just be whom I am. and yes I do want SRS/GRS and would love it sooner than later but alas no money.

[Starling]

...the dismantling of male sexual aggression and the building of female sexual surrender, and finally the disrobing from male privilege...

God, I look forward to all that, Kathryn. After a childhood of "sissy" taunts, and defending a manhood I didn't feel, pre-op or post-op I don't much fear being verbally abused for proudly wearing the clothing that should have been my birthright.

:) Lallie

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Yes Kaitlyn, right, one caveat though "female sexual surrender", wrong language for what I am attempting to express it is not about sexual surrender but creating the space to be filled, not physically, but an opening emotion, a gesture. It is my gesture but in a sense I cannot execute it yet....

I hear what you are saying...i'm thinking though that its not really about sex...sex is good, and you are right to say that as a woman it makes sense that you would feel natural about being penetrated...something maybe a gg would take for granted..
however, i'm sure some gg's may not like it at all..but it doesnt mean they are not women!

I was thinking of it as the Penis symbolizes/represents/outwardly id's a MALE...your makeup , your long hair, your clothes, even your "femininity and girliness" are just traits...
some people get concerned with their rugged nature, or that they love football or socket wrenches...these are traits..

and the vagina is the same for a female...we represent our genders by our sex organs....we express our genders by using our sex organs in a sexual way...

this is an internal and external thing...sure people don't see your penis , but you know its there, and it represents to YOU that you are male...even though you know you are female...and so destroying it seems pretty important, as does replacing it with something that id's your gender...

this is why i don't concern myself with the idea of whether srs is really enough, or whether there are less invasive ways to transition...
i don't care that i don't have a cervix or a female size body organ because the basic symbol of womanhood is a vagina...

it doesnt make me a woman...but it allows me to represent my womanhood in a way that every single person on planet earth instinctively and unquestionably understands

[GirlieAmanda]

I really appreciate this section myself. I consider myself a transsexual but am trying to deal with how to live with it and how to do things about it. I am right on the cusp of taking hormones and am in therapy. This is such a crucial time for me. I feel that I have begun transition already with things I have done. I really like to hear what people who have gone through with transition have experienced. It is very valuable, inspirational and eye opening. Sadly, I still am sensing a kind of hierarchy from some here though. These people seem to imply that if you are not 100% committed and will stop at nothing till you have HRT, FFS, SRS, decades of RLE and the whole deal, then you are just a dreamer or not serious enough. I hear about the hard life it is being a TS. It concerns me greatly. The choice for me is: Stay in a safe but crappy gender limbo land and be unhappy till death. Or transition, possibly losing everything but feel whole inside thus making me happier, I hope, while gaining new friends and family or regaining these people. It is an extremely tough choice. SRS is VERY serious and expensive too. Hormones are fairly cheap. A lot of trans girls do not go through with SRS because of money, not wanting to risk major surgery, regret, family, work, etc. I consider a person on hormones a person who has transitioned if that is where they want to stay. There is no hierarchy to me. There shouldn't be. I urge the TS militants to ease up and work together for everyone from the fully transitioned to the dreamers. They just may need some guidance.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

you say amanda the choice is to be unhappy till death vs live in safe but crappy limbo.. that is a big deal, and i think its good to talk about it
there are alot of comments here that say "hey...srs works to get you out of crappy limbo land!!!",...and many times they are taken as "hey i'm better than you!!!"

and i must admit that sometimes posts seem like they are saying "im better....."
if the poster is somebody that lords things over other people...that is not about srs or not srs...it is about the person...

[GirlieAmanda]

Well its really safe but crappy vs. brave, happy but potentially shitty. I am very interested in the talk about how SRS really changes your life. I can see that. I was always under the impression that it was just a completing step or icing on the cake. It sounds like its so much more. The way Stephanie S described it was incredible. I have not heard that kind of description before.

[Noemi]

This is an amazing thread.
I am in the beginning of seriously considering taking action. I do not consider myself as just a cd'er because i know what I feel, and have always felt, that I am a woman...but here I am.
I am going to read this thread again. This is so very helpful to me, really. I know you all are just writing what you feel, but really you are helping me so much as it is time in my life to gather information, and here is the information, I know the truth when I read it/see it/ hear it. The truth is the highest thought, selfless and strong..one true.
Amazing. And Thank you again!!!

[MackenzieMarigold]

In a sense, I'm happy that I messed up the wording in the opening post, because I really learned a lot from this thread. It made me think. Somewhere down the line I'll know what I want to do, but I now realize I won't know that anytime soon. It means a lot that i can see everyone's opinion like this, and it makes me think about myself more than I have in a long time. I hope I'm not the only one that will learn from this.

Thank you. ALL of you.

[chloe23]

In a sense, I'm happy that I messed up the wording in the opening post, because I really learned a lot from this thread. It made me think. Somewhere down the line I'll know what I want to do, but I now realize I won't know that anytime soon. It means a lot that i can see everyone's opinion like this, and it makes me think about myself more than I have in a long time. I hope I'm not the only one that will learn from this.

Thank you. ALL of you.

I am glad you learned something and don't ever hesitate to ask questions............

[Katesback]

My dear srs is the beginning of transition. Once you have it the days of being pre op were your training days. Your days to learn and observe and do your best to present the woman you feel you are but all the while your not because your male.

Once you have srs you really begin transition because that is the time when you with luck learn to be a real woman and walk away from the confines of being a trans woman. This journey is filled with major challenges and joys and times when the light bulb goes off and you say wow I never felt that way before.

I am not saying these events happen to all post op girls because some never get there for a variety of reasons.

What I can say with certainty is that you will never experience this transition till the day you have srs (orchie does not count).
You can ramble on and on about how you are a woman and all but the real fact of life is after you have srs you will completely understand what I and the other post op girls are saying. Like it or not.




Well its really safe but crappy vs. brave, happy but potentially shitty. I am very interested in the talk about how SRS really changes your life. I can see that. I was always under the impression that it was just a completing step or icing on the cake. It sounds like its so much more. The way Stephanie S described it was incredible. I have not heard that kind of description before.

[GirlieAmanda]

My dear srs is the beginning of transition. Once you have it the days of being pre op were your training days. Your days to learn and observe and do your best to present the woman you feel you are but all the while your not because your male.

Once you have srs you really begin transition because that is the time when you with luck learn to be a real woman and walk away from the confines of being a trans woman. This journey is filled with major challenges and joys and times when the light bulb goes off and you say wow I never felt that way before.

I am not saying these events happen to all post op girls because some never get there for a variety of reasons.

What I can say with certainty is that you will never experience this transition till the day you have srs (orchie does not count).
You can ramble on and on about how you are a woman and all but the real fact of life is after you have srs you will completely understand what I and the other post op girls are saying. Like it or not.

This has really affected my thinking. I have thought about what you said. I think I am in your camp about SRS. It HAS to be so incredible. I mean, you have a vagina for God's sake. That is the quintessential for a person like me. I have read on this forum about how people have said it is an afterthought or icing in the cake because they have already have been a woman in their minds for so long. BUT, what you are describing to me is such a difference in one's life. It is way different. Just to look at your body in the mirror and see a complete woman standing there must be an incredibly powerful feeling. I have dreamed of that so many times as have all of us probably. I have definitely had a revelation here. I hope with all my heart that I can get to experience what you have experienced.

[ValRom]

Just to look at your body in the mirror and see a complete woman standing there must be an incredibly powerful feeling.

I look in the mirror and I see an aging body, a tummy that's too big, I go through "god, what am I going to do with this hair?", teeth that could use whitening, eyebrows that need to be waxed [again], just why didn't I get that nose job?, is that eyebrow lower than the other?, I wish I could do something about the dark circles, etc. Somehow all these observations are important now where they might have been something less before.

I'm having probs getting an appointment with a gyn - I have a list of trans-friendly gyns that I'm working from.

What is different and powerful for me is that the nagging, persistent issue of will I/won't I is gone. I am. Whatever now happens - good or bad - is because I have control. Some of it is bad, for certain. Relationships can take a tumble down the hill - you may have thought transition took care of that, that it weeded out the keepers from the drifters, but not entirely.

Someone earlier in the thread (katesback?) mentioned that she couldn't be a cheerleader. I understand her point entirely.

Pre-op I wouldn't have wished my condition on my friends or enemies; post-op I'm still of the same opinion.

Do I regret I had the surgery? No!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

val thanks for you honest and very pragmatic post!! i feel very much the same way...altho i did go for the nose job..hehe

[Sharon]

Gads, when I was last here after writing my own quick reply in one of the first posts in the thread, I never envisioned the path it would follow. Tonight, while I'm approaching the bottom of the first page of posts I'm thinking that I need to step in and either try to calm things down or shut them up..., but there were still over four pages of posts to read and it turned out there was much worthwhile to be gleamed, not discounting the occasional tawdriness that continued to pop up. I have to say that this thread exemplifies both the best and worst of forums such as ours; once you manage to read past the petty and sometimes ignorant posts, there's a lot of significant and valuable information and compassion to be found. I believe this thread is easily the most meandering thread I have ever read here and I wish I had gold stars to hand out to a few folk.

So, no threats or scoldings, nor even any advice beyond what I wrote five days ago, but -- please! -- let's try to embrace the best of written communication and not the worst.

[Genivieve]

The one thing I like very much about those who have gone completely through the transition process is the definition and clarity in their opinions. However, those of us who are still early and have many questions can get quite the beatdown haha.
The OP surely seems to make some claims that contradict themselves. The tone was questionable but it sometimes makes me feel sad when it turns into attacks by those who are more experienced. Please be patient with members who are confused or even cd "dreamers."

Then again I guess I would be irked if someone came and made a bold statement about SRS without even stepping out into the world dressed up (no offense to the OP!) I just can see both sides and I will likely ask some naive questions too in time.
This is one of the few places to begin understanding myself and many of you have been so helpful. Other forums are downright mean!

[az_azeel]

at a request... of the op this thread is now closed...