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GirlieAmanda
10-21-2011, 12:24 PM
I finally saw a gender specific therapist in Pennsylvania yesterday. It was a great day. I have been wanting to do this for a long time and should have a while ago. Her name is Polly Kahl. She is a gender specific LPC in Reading,PA area. I like her. She seems warm and caring. I booked a double session and drove up 2 hours to her from Baltimore. In the future I plan on seeing her via Skype. She believes this is a quality way to see people who are in remote area or want to keep their therapists when they move. I am comfy on Skype. She even negotiated with me on price since I am unemployed. I am very happy with the arrangement.

A couple of things stood out at the initial session that concerned me. After I told her how I used to link dressing with masterbation in the very beginning and continued that for around 20 years. She said it sounded like I was fetishistic. It did start out that way and the clothes did make me feel sexual. I was 13 at the time and exploding sexually. I had flashes of girlie things when I was a child. I liked to play with girls and Barbies in addition to boy stuff as well as experiment with Moms makeup, so me being TG did have raw beginnings earlier than 13 and before puberty. I knew full well that these things were girlie.

Now, I have evolved to where it is not sexual anymore. I have broken the link. I still love the feeling of the clothes because am a female inside and they comfort me and hide my bland guy body. But I have discovered that I have a great desire to change my body to match my insides. I am a super-fem on the inside. I don't like to see any guyness and never really have. Since I have been attempting to live full time since June, I am the happiest and most content I have ever been. I actually feel MORE confident and outgoing too. I feel closer to whole and I don't have such a conflict inside. I also have not had passing flashes of suicide fantasies either. I feel like my whole body is just so content and happy. I feel like the inside and the outside are closer to finally merging. I have an overwhelming desire to live my life this way and get my body closer to how I feel inside. Hormone therapy should help with this. I am prepared to face all that goes with HRT and living full time and I have a great desire to change my name and gender marker. These are big changes. I have begun permanently changing my body too. This to me does not sound like a fetishistic thing. She also said that the other trans girls she sees do not usually have a link to sexual past associated with their TS status. This really concerned me because I don't believe I am a fetish dresser and ALSO know of at least 3 other transitioning TS girls personally who started dressing and having a sexual response in the early years.

Another thing that concerned me was that she knows of doctors that will not do SRS on a person who can still get erections of any kind because that means that the hormone levels are not right. I question this too. I KNOW there are TS girls who can still get erect and could easily choose SRS. I know one personally but I think there are a lot. I am just wondering if she is just misinformed. I am sure she is not lying. Her other TS patients must be the girls that desire HRT, FFS, and SRS or bust and have hated their bodies from the beginning. I don't hate my body but it is not right on the outside. I don't really like looking at it with out at least bra and panties. It then looks a little more right because it hides the maleness.

I hope she is just trying to challenge me which a good therapist should do. Testing my reactions to being called a fetish dresser and hearing my response. I hope so. I am just trying to be honest. I could easily say I hate my body and if I don't change it I will die. I like life too much to say that. I can hide my maleness pretty good so that gets me by. I would like to know opinions on all of this.

Julia_in_Pa
10-21-2011, 12:52 PM
Amanda,

She really sounds like she's challenging you to take a long and concentrated look at yourself.

I've been full time for five years and on HRT for close to eleven years and have never heard of an SRS surgeon not willing to perform bottom surgery just because one gets erections.

I'm intersexed and enjoy a very healthy sexual relationship with my fiance who is a GG.

Yes I use my erections in such a manner. ;O)

I've had both my letters for surgery for the past four years with the therapist's knowledge of me using my body in such a way.

Now on the other side of the coin you don't have the years of living under your belt to prove otherwise to your therapist(s) that you are actually TS and not a fetish driven man in a dress.
This is the reason why I believe your therapist is diving into your mind in such a way. She also doesn't know you yet.

Keep exploring you Amanda and the answers will come to you because whether you know it or not your exploring a path that can either lead to life or death.

Some can handle the journey some cannot.

I lost my spouse, family, house , friends and my job of five years after I went full time.

I came deadly close to sticking my Glock in my mouth in October of 2007 because of everything I lost.

Be extremely careful Amanda because there is a threshold that once you pass you cannot return.

Listen to your heart and your therapist.


Julia

HottyHeather
10-21-2011, 01:45 PM
Ive thought long and hard about transitioning to a femme life style and how complicated it would be , not only for me but my entire family . I ve been dressing up as long as you and id with your statements about sexual gradification and then i too got past that part of the whole dress up part . But to me the shock and awe it would cause in my family would be probably unbearable , so Ive given up on C. D. and i guess trying to live as a normal human male . its not ez at all Ive only tried to stop about ten thous. times and this is the longest I have gone , Im just tired of two different people living inside of me , thats how i feel about it and trying to learn to except my body as a male.

Longing2be-Trisha
10-21-2011, 03:10 PM
Hi Amanda!

I would have to agree with Julia Listen to your heart an therapist. Being transgender does have a big price, but if you are not happy in male mode and very happy in girl mode that tells you something. Take care of yourself mentally and physically, fore I know were you are coming from. The sexual response is just your mind getting overly excited with joy from knowing this is who I truly am and need to be, with the need to relieve pressure.

Hugs

ReineD
10-21-2011, 04:04 PM
Here's food for thought:

One of the things I've read (if I find the link I'll post it) from Ray Blanchard (the guy who coined the term "autogynephilia") is that brain connections are made when the CDing is highly sexual, that do alter a person's motivation to do what they do even after the CDing is no longer sexual. In other words, you rewired your brain. He compared it to a man having bonded emotionally to his wife for a lifetime, long after the sexual passion of his youth has dissipated. Others may disagree, but it makes sense to me.

It's called neuroplasticity. Here's a good article that explains it: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1580438-1,00.html

At any rate, what is important now is that you are happier being Amanda and this state of mind has been with you for a long time. No matter how you got here, it is where you're at now.

Frances
10-21-2011, 04:21 PM
I would recommend reading Julia Serano's take on autogynephilia.

My opinion is that for the non-congruent person, sexual thought can pretty much only occur in the imagining of oneself as the other gender. Clothes and various accessories enhance that feeling. Look at it this way, cis-sexual girls imagine themselves as cis-sexual women having sex. Is it not normal for a transsexual woman to do the same thing? If the transsexual person is afraid of her own transsexuality, would she not avoid any sexual thoughts unless they overcome her totally, like while putting forbiden clothes?

Augynephilia, as I perceive it, is a symptom not a cause, and is found in many, many trans women, although most will not admit to it. It is normal.

Autoandrophila exists as well by the way, but no one cares about trans men in the psychological/psychiatric establishment.

Kaitlyn Michele
10-21-2011, 04:31 PM
Lots of transsexuals have sexual feelings around being a woman..
its confusing because obviously crossdressers do too..

Your therapist should know all this if she is any good. Her assertions about the contrary are false in my experience..i have talked to many many people and although many girls are from the I knew since i was 5 camp, just as many lived long confusing lives of wondering what this feeling was, and wondering why they were getting turned on by the thoughts..and masturbating the night away...

fyi... i have felt sexual feelings around this all my life...i have felt them a couple times even after srs..
its nothing to "concern" yourself about...its just part of who you are and how you are experiencing things..

also fyi...like you , i am open and honest... i shared my sexual urges with my surgeon
i had my srs surgery with Dr toby meltzer, he is as experienced as it gets..i talked to him about my erections and my concerns and he just smiled and said join the club...

she may also be reacting to the way you are expressing yourself, and the things you say when you describe yourself...feeling girlie is not the same as feeling you are a woman...

all in all, keep being true to yourself..
i am mildly concerned about this therapist..

Aprilrain
10-21-2011, 04:42 PM
Once I hit puberty I was like any other body with raging T in it, HORNEY! A fetish is when a person NEEDS an inanimate object involved in the sex act to be turned on. I felt the same way about sex wether I was dressed up or not. I was ALWAYS a female in my sex fantasies. I say live your life how you want and time will tell if your willing to trade in the old parts for some new ones.

Rianna Humble
10-21-2011, 04:47 PM
I can't say whether all doctors do or don't worry about the ability to get an erection, but I have no doubt that some will and perhaps she knows some of those. WPATH mention the inability to get an erection as a desirable side effect of the Hormone Therapy, so it would not be beyond belief that a doctor looking at the effects of HT on your body might express doubts as to whether your hormone levels were right if you are still able to have an erection.

You don't say whether you had already made clear to your therapist that you have gone beyond the sexual thrill motive for dressing at the time she commented that that sounded like your dressing was fetishistic. Did she actually say "was" or "is"?

Whatever her motive and/or technique, I think that she was right to draw your attention to both things. You need to be aware for yourself of the possibility of your feelings being driven by a fetish so that you can disprove it to yourself. You also need to be aware that MtF Hormone Therapy typically results in a loss of male sexual function. You may well be happy with this (as I am), but I believe that she would have been remiss if she did not flag these questions to you.

It is not a question of asking you to make up stories that are not true for you, but it is a question of ensuring that you know what you are doing and that you know you are doing it for a reason that is likely to give a successful outcome.

I have seen threads here that have mentioned as many as 5 or 6 people who regretted transition in the last 60 years, but a common theme in those regrets seems to me to have been that they were ill-prepared for the realities and/or had unreasonable expectations.

Jessinthesprings
10-21-2011, 06:40 PM
Lots of transsexuals have sexual feelings around being a woman..
its confusing because obviously crossdressers do too..

I think there is a difference between being turned on from the object (shoes, panties, ect ect) and being the woman. Yes it sounds similar but the motivations are very different

HenryHall
10-21-2011, 08:15 PM
You wrote " I finally saw a gender specific therapist ... ", but the conversation you described was largely about sex.
I would not have much confidence in a therapist that claims to be a gender specialist and then confuses it with sex.

Whatever she said I'll bet a dollar to a penny that it was wound up with a recommendation to come back and spend more money with her.

Gennifer
10-23-2011, 02:27 PM
Amanda,

I have made an appointment to see a therapist (haven't seen her yet) who focuses on gender issues, and your concerns raise some anxiety for me because I guess I am afraid that someone will try to "talk me out" of what I am feeling. When I made the appointment, she made an offhand remark about it usually taking only three sessions to see where someone is. While I would also be concerned about seeing someone for a long time with no resolution (expensive; been there, done that), I also am worried about someone who jumps to a conclusion too quickly. I think it is a fine balance. Over many years I have seen a number of therapists, none so far about gender issues specifically, and some have been good, and others have not been helpful at all. Like you, I would be concerned if someone moved to quickly to "if this, then this." Making an appointment to see a therapist feels like a big step to me, and it sounds like it was for you, too. Given the size of the step, I think it is important to find someone balanced. I would also agree with Reine that "no matter how you got here, it is where you are at now."

I think this is so important. It reminds me of the zen parable of the man who was shot with an arrow and who, before he could pull it out, wanted to know who made the arrow, what kind of wood was it made with, who shot the arrow, what the arrowhead was made with, how fast the arrow traveled, etc. We can spend a lot of time wondering where something started, how it started, when, sometimes, we just need to pull out the arrow, which is not to say to make rash decisions without considering consequences. It means focusing on the present.

Kaitlyn Michele
10-23-2011, 07:51 PM
Genn and amanda..

try to look at it as "data"...henry is right, i am concerned you are not in good hands too... but you can decide for yourself...lots gets lost in translation...maybe there was much more to your session..or it may be a way of challenging you...

the parable is really cool..in the end ...it is YOUR responsibility to YOURSELF that must be accepted...the therapy is a tool for you to use or not use... some people are better than others, some are crooks, and some are wonderful...you have to decide.
They are most helpful when you are looking for confirmation around what you know...and when they can introduce you to other people that have been through transition so you can really learn...

Gennifer
10-24-2011, 12:21 AM
the therapy is a tool for you to use or not use... some people are better than others, some are crooks, and some are wonderful...you have to decide.
They are most helpful when you are looking for confirmation around what you know...and when they can introduce you to other people that have been through transition so you can really learn...

Kaitlyn,

Thank your for these words. They are a good reminder to me that what we feel is real, not imagined, and that who we are is who we are.

Maiko Newhalf
10-24-2011, 01:15 PM
This makes a lot of sense to me. Really insightful observations, frances.


I would recommend reading Julia Serano's take on autogynephilia.

My opinion is that for the non-congruent person, sexual thought can pretty much only occur in the imagining of oneself as the other gender. Clothes and various accessories enhance that feeling. Look at it this way, cis-sexual girls imagine themselves as cis-sexual women having sex. Is it not normal for a transsexual woman to do the same thing? If the transsexual person is afraid of her own transsexuality, would she not avoid any sexual thoughts unless they overcome her totally, like while putting forbiden clothes?

Augynephilia, as I perceive it, is a symptom not a cause, and is found in many, many trans women, although most will not admit to it. It is normal.

Autoandrophila exists as well by the way, but no one cares about trans men in the psychological/psychiatric establishment.

Maiko Newhalf
10-24-2011, 01:35 PM
Armanda,

I have just had four sessions with my gender therapist and I doubt I could give you any meaningful advice. But I have came across Lynn Conway's website and found it very useful, especially the warnings for SRS: http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html.

I tends to agree with what many have already said. Although it is important to question and find out one's motivation, in the end it is "what to do" that matters the most. It seems to me that whether someone will regreat going through transistion depends mostly on her expectation before it and experience after it. Another thing to think about is how much the gender dysphoria have been affecting your everyday life.

Hugs,
Maiko

Inna
10-24-2011, 01:56 PM
Hi Amanda, do not worry for a second that anyone, I mean anyone including good and bad therapists are able to tell you who you are, although some may try :o

Therapy and leading therapist is there to encourage you in conditioned manner to dig deep into your psyche to uncover truths about you you may not be aware of but no one is simply able to tell you who you are, it is a fact of life and psychology unless they are a fortune tellers :)

Sexuality is an intricate part of human experience, it intertwines with gender roles and sometime obscures the truth way deep within our gender brain. Sexual arousal may surface from tens of different reasons during act of crossdressing. Sexual energy may be stifled by denial and inability to experience feminine side for prolonged periods of time then when released it manifests through ecstasy and final ability to experience gender role may be overshadowed or intertwined with sexual charge.
Such is not a proclamation of Fetishism however it may be in certain conditions.

When psychologist is unsure of classification they may result to use of hormonal therapy do strip unwanted interference in form of libido from the subjects experience and uncover a true gender marker within their psyche.

Be honest, be brutally honest, be painfully honest, only then can you expect to see your true self, but if you start suspecting therapist of leading you astray, do confront them right away!!!! This is therapy, it is there for you and noone else, you are paing for it, demand professionalism and absolute clarity from your therapist as they demand it from you!

ReineD
10-24-2011, 02:59 PM
I would recommend reading Julia Serano's take on autogynephilia.

My opinion is that for the non-congruent person, sexual thought can pretty much only occur in the imagining of oneself as the other gender. Clothes and various accessories enhance that feeling. Look at it this way, cis-sexual girls imagine themselves as cis-sexual women having sex. Is it not normal for a transsexual woman to do the same thing? If the transsexual person is afraid of her own transsexuality, would she not avoid any sexual thoughts unless they overcome her totally, like while putting forbiden clothes?

Augynephilia, as I perceive it, is a symptom not a cause, and is found in many, many trans women, although most will not admit to it. It is normal.

Autoandrophila exists as well by the way, but no one cares about trans men in the psychological/psychiatric establishment.

I found Serano's article on AGP:

http://feministing.com/2007/08/24/friday_guest_blogger_julia_ser/

I agree with her. I also disagree with Blanchard and Bailey's concept that a sexual motive is the sole reason for anyone who wishes to transition, either because they are attracted to men or because they are aroused at the thought of being female. I firmly believe there are transwomen who are born in the wrong body and who need to align their bodies with their internal gender IDs. There's enough evidence in this forum alone. And your opinion that it is normal for transwomen to feel sexual as women, just as do cis-sexual women makes perfect sense to me. :)

But, there are also other birth males for whom being a woman is a very powerful fantasy or compulsion and for them, the concept of AGP fits. I'm speaking, generally, of the males who start out sexualizing the crossdressing during the teenage years, and it is my opinion that it's possible to rewire the brain in the manner that Blanchard suggests, so that what remains is a deep comfort over expressing femininity even years after the process is no longer largely sexual. I also think it is entirely possible for such people to seek transition, or perhaps live for years believing they want to transition and perhaps seek milder forms of feminization.

My point earlier was, does it matter whether a person started out with gender non-congruity, or if they got there through other means? For the late onset transition seekers, it can be debated as to whether it took years to get out of denial, vs. having developed a feeling that living as a woman is more fulfilling than living as a male, since no one can see the motives other than the individual who experiences these strong desires. But ultimately, if they are not happy living as men, then what is the point of continuing life as a male?

The only danger of course, and this would apply more to men who believe they want to transition while not having undergone RLE, is that some will believe that transition will make them a woman and then life will be all better. These people will be sorely disappointed the day after surgery and I guess this is why we have the gate-keepers.

Kaitlyn Michele
10-24-2011, 04:45 PM
as someone that experienced it, there is no question it was about denial...as i transition, i still feel pangs of denial..but my experience more and more informs me of the truth (Or my truth)..
only by living this life can i bury the denial forever.

i don't believe blanchards idea of rewiring the brain..I cant prove it, i'm not a scientist, but i've met hundreds of dressers and ts people...i see zero evidence of this.

its feasible that a person is escaping male life by adopting femininity....transition and srs for that person is likely to be a disaster
escaping maleness is not a reward ..real life does not allow escape..

remember most mid life transitioners FIGHT AND FIGHT to live as males..i cant tell you how many of us went to therapy looking to get cured..
that is not consistent at all with the idea of fantasizing yourself into more fulfilling life as a female..its exactly the opposite

kimdl93
10-24-2011, 04:57 PM
Amanda,

I wouldn't be too concerned about the fetish question. It is possible that your therapist is just probing. But, I also suspect that many TG teens have intense associations between dressing and sex. What isn't associated with sex as a young person. The larger question to me is whether sexual gratification remains the primary motivator. And clearly in your case, it is not.

its great that you are taking the time to explore your motivations with professional help. Just remember that you don't need to live your life to anyone's expectations or criteria. You can't please everyone, so ya gotta please yourself ;)

ReineD
10-24-2011, 05:13 PM
its feasible that a person is escaping male life by adopting femininity....transition and srs for that person is likely to be a disaster
escaping maleness is not a reward ..real life does not allow escape..

This is what I was referring to. But as to whether or not it is a disaster depends on how strong is the desire to live as a woman. You can't discount the power of cognitive dissonance. Granted, the quality of life after transition might not be the best, but neither will be living as a man while being obsessed with transition?



remember most mid life transitioners FIGHT AND FIGHT to live as males..i cant tell you how many of us went to therapy looking to get cured..
that is not consistent at all with the idea of fantasizing yourself into more fulfilling life as a female..its exactly the opposite

But, how many members come into this section playing with the idea of transition? They want to find out which creams will give them breasts. Or they sit on the sidelines for years. Or perhaps they want hormones and no androgen blockers. Yes, there are transwomen who for a variety of reasons do not feel they can transition, but some are not. Surely you can see this? And so it is a form of brain-rewiring that causes this conviction they want to transition? What else can it be?


Amanda ... just so you know, I'm not implying you fit in this category. Just saying that not everyone who thinks they want to transition is TS.

Rianna Humble
10-24-2011, 07:05 PM
Just saying that not everyone who thinks they want to transition is TS.

It has been my experience that many TS folk don't want to transition, but we feel that this is the only option left to be able to continue living.

I deliberately make the comment sound flip, but as I said to the doctor in the Gender Clinic the other week, I had got as far as planning about half a dozen ways to commit suicide but finally decided there was more future in staying alive, so I had to give in to the inevitable and admit who I am. From then on, I had no choice but to transition.

ReineD
10-24-2011, 07:23 PM
It has been my experience that many TS folk don't want to transition, but we feel that this is the only option left to be able to continue living.

But, TS folk do want to transition eventually, once they've sorted through it all. There are many threads here from TSs who can't wait to have SRS.

This is why it's so difficult to ascertain whether someone is truly TS, or if they're lost in a major pink fog, or if they're in between, or if they didn't start out being TS but now they are, whether or not they were in denial, or if they are escaping male lives. There's no way to determine this with any real accuracy since there are just so many variables. The mind is a powerful thing. Only the individual can say with any real authority where they're at, and even then .... there are still those who believe they are TS (or sometimes they'll say TG) but who are not.

I honestly don't envy anyone who is struggling with these questions.

chloe23
10-24-2011, 07:38 PM
It has been my experience that many TS folk don't want to transition, but we feel that this is the only option left to be able to continue living.

Rianna, you couldn't have stated it any better. Transition is not easy for anybody, you deal with depression, GID, embarrassment,loss of family, friend, income, plus it is very expensive. Many people have loss their lives because they where to ashamed to get help or where afraid to transition. Because it is one of the hardest things you have to do, transitioning and being alive is allot better then not transitioning and being dead.

Kaitlyn Michele
10-24-2011, 08:57 PM
On the rewiring idea....i think its very dangerous...i guess i can't prove its true or untrue..but if rewiring is possible, then we could all be reprogrammed as happy guys...the doctors on dr phil that have the centers to get the gay and trans out of kids would have success after success.... and the idea of rewiring is TOTALLY INCONSISTENT with all of our stories about how desperately we tried to live as guys... why would a guy who wanted to be a girl have the ability to rewire his brain, and a gal STUCK as a guy can't rewire hers...it makes no sense to me....

as far the confusion..i think the anonymous nature of this forum adds to the confusion...there are liars and posers here (sounds ominous..heh)...and this is an easy place to indulge your pink fog and obsessions, its easy to lay claim to your womanhood on the internet, jerk off and then go to work the next morning..

I think more people in day to day situations would accurately express that they think they are ts or not,
and its more about how they feel about it, how they are gonna deal with it, whether they get surgery, can i survive without transition...etcetc..
thats why when people here are truly and openly questioning, i urge them to meet as many ts and cd people as you can....thats where the answer lies..

chloe23
10-24-2011, 10:05 PM
I don't think it's possible to rewire anybody's brain. The brain is a big mystery and how it operates. It controls every movement and how you feel and act. You can't rewire a gay person's brain and make them straight or a hetero and make them gay or a transsexual. You are who you are and what your brain tells you who you are. Many transsexuals really know who they are at a young age, but most repress them feelings only to be over whelmed later inlife.


Why do you have some people transition in their 20's and then some in their late 40's and 50s, because they have gone as far as they could go. I think it's because most people where in denial, lack of information, support, and somebody to talk to about their feelings. The internet and support groups are a great wealth of information for anybody to use. I agree with Kaitlyn to meet as many cd's and ts as you can, they will help you greatly to as they have me. Don't be afraid to ask questions either if you don't know the answer, somebody out there is more than willing to help.

ReineD
10-24-2011, 10:41 PM
On the rewiring idea....i think its very dangerous...i guess i can't prove its true or untrue..

I don't think it's possible to rewire anybody's brain. The brain is a big mystery and how it operates.

Please ... just read this article. I'm sure the Time Magazine science reporters did source the article from actual research. One prime example of brain rewiring I can immediately think of is addiction and compulsions, which works on the reward principles.

The Brain: How The Brain Rewires Itself (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1580438-2,00.html)


OVERTHROWING THE DOGMA

FOR DECADES, THE PREVAILING DOGMA IN neuroscience was that the adult human brain is essentially immutable, hardwired, fixed in form and function, so that by the time we reach adulthood we are pretty much stuck with what we have. Yes, it can create (and lose) synapses, the connections between neurons that encode memories and learning. And it can suffer injury and degeneration. But this view held that if genes and development dictate that one cluster of neurons will process signals from the eye and another cluster will move the fingers of the right hand, then they'll do that and nothing else until the day you die. There was good reason for lavishly illustrated brain books to show the function, size and location of the brain's structures in permanent ink.

The doctrine of the unchanging human brain has had profound ramifications. For one thing, it lowered expectations about the value of rehabilitation for adults who had suffered brain damage from a stroke or about the possibility of fixing the pathological wiring that underlies psychiatric diseases. And it implied that other brain-based fixities, such as the happiness set point that, according to a growing body of research, a person returns to after the deepest tragedy or the greatest joy, are nearly unalterable.

But research in the past few years has overthrown the dogma. In its place has come the realization that the adult brain retains impressive powers of "neuroplasticity"--the ability to change its structure and function in response to experience. These aren't minor tweaks either. Something as basic as the function of the visual or auditory cortex can change as a result of a person's experience of becoming deaf or blind at a young age. Even when the brain suffers a trauma late in life, it can rezone itself like a city in a frenzy of urban renewal. If a stroke knocks out, say, the neighborhood of motor cortex that moves the right arm, a new technique called constraint-induced movement therapy can coax next-door regions to take over the function of the damaged area. The brain can be rewired.

... Last paragraph in the article:

The discovery of neuroplasticity, in particular the power of the mind to change the brain, is still too new for scientists, let alone the rest of us, to grasp its full meaning. But even as it offers new therapies for illnesses of the mind, it promises something more fundamental: a new understanding of what it means to be human.



as far the confusion..i think the anonymous nature of this forum adds to the confusion...there are liars and posers here (sounds ominous..heh)...and this is an easy place to indulge your pink fog and obsessions

Exactly. But they may not be posers. They may actually believe what they say, after having had years and years of feminine presentation being the most significant positive experience in their lives. So who's to say that transition isn't for them too?

Kaitlyn Michele
10-24-2011, 11:03 PM
wow ..that article was interesting..

i wonder why it doesnt apply to transsexuals in practice... i lived a male life...i wanted to live my life to conform to what my parents and friends wanted...i had all the parts, i did well in school, i played sports, i got girlfriends...all the inputs were good.. why did that not rewire my brain? why didn't my brain respond to all that positive stimulus? there are things like david reimer..intersexed, doctor picked female, and he was socialize dfemale...he got all the positive feedback and was rebelling against it his whole life..
if we assume that ts people can be rewired, or that men can rewire themselves into women, you are saying anybody can be rewired into anything..just by having good experiences? didn't work for me..so i am biased by personal experience.

i guess the concept of transsexualism is certainly challenging to what people generally consider the human experience, so it makes sense that there are lots of other things that challenge us as well..

ReineD
10-24-2011, 11:15 PM
wow ..that article was interesting..

i wonder why it doesnt apply to transsexuals in practice...

It doesn't apply to you because you were transsexual (now a woman), but can you say for sure that someone else might not convince themselves they are transsexual, after a lifetime of having had their brain release all the pleasure chemicals associated with feminine presentation? The point is, little enough is known about the brain to say for sure that all people who will want to transition were gender-incongruent from the beginning, or they were in denial about themselves for years. And again, what difference does it make if someone is gender-incongruent from the beginning, or they get there through other means?

And I'm not saying that anyone can rewire themselves into wanting to be another gender. It would take a very strong compulsion to do this, I should think, combined with perhaps an unhappy life in the birth gender. And who knows, maybe other conditions such as depression?

Edit ... Don't get me wrong Kaitlyn. I'm not doubting the motives of transwomen who wish to transition. I'm saying there is a possibility there are many others who are not gender-incongruent, who think they want to transition as well. .... surely you've read this in many threads here and in the M2F section?

chloe23
10-24-2011, 11:39 PM
It doesn't apply to you because you were transsexual (now a woman), but can you say for sure that someone else might not convince themselves they are transsexual, after a lifetime of having had their brain release all the pleasure chemicals associated with feminine presentation? The point is, little enough is known about the brain to say for sure that all people who will want to transition were gender-incongruent from the beginning, or they were in denial about themselves for years. And again, what difference does it make if someone is gender-incongruent from the beginning, or they get there through other means?

And I'm not saying that anyone can rewire themselves into wanting to be another gender. It would take a very strong compulsion to do this, I should think, combined with perhaps an unhappy life in the birth gender. And who knows, maybe other conditions such as depression?

Edit ... Don't get me wrong Kaitlyn. I'm not doubting the motives of transwomen who wish to transition. I'm saying there is a possibility there are many others who are not gender-incongruent, who think they want to transition as well. .... surely you've read this in many threads here and in the M2F section?

Reine, I did read the article and it was pretty interesting how the brain can rewire it self, Especially after an injury or loss of a limb. What stops the brain from rewiring it self in transsexualism. Most transsexuals try to adapt to their birth gender in hopes of fitting in somewhere, I too did it all just like Kaitlyn. It is very hard to understand for everyone why the brain won't just do that. I'm confused myself now.

ReineD
10-25-2011, 12:29 AM
Reine, I did read the article and it was pretty interesting how the brain can rewire it self, Especially after an injury or loss of a limb. What stops the brain from rewiring it self in transsexualism.

Chloe, I'm not saying that transwomen rewire their brains to get to a point where they want to transition. I know that you, Kaitlyn, and others needed to align your physical bodies with your internal gender ID.

What I'm saying is, it is possible for people who are not TS, or who certainly don't start out this way, to rewire their brain through years of pleasurable experiences with feminine expression, to reach a point where they feel they will be happier living as women than living as a man.

Rianna Humble
10-25-2011, 03:33 AM
I'm not doubting the motives of transwomen who wish to transition. I'm saying there is a possibility there are many others who are not gender-incongruent, who think they want to transition as well. .... surely you've read this in many threads here and in the M2F section?

I agree that there are many threads from people who fantasize about transitioning, but in the vast majority of cases, when they are confronted with the reality of living 24/7 as a gender opposite to their own, they change their mind.

There are also plenty of posts in the MtF CD section where people post about how they thought it would be great to spend a 2 or 3 week vacation as a woman, but found that the appeal wore off after less than a week when they actually tried it.


Reine, I did read the article and it was pretty interesting how the brain can rewire it self, Especially after an injury or loss of a limb. What stops the brain from rewiring it self in transsexualism. Most transsexuals try to adapt to their birth gender in hopes of fitting in somewhere, I too did it all just like Kaitlyn. It is very hard to understand for everyone why the brain won't just do that. I'm confused myself now.

People like Chloe, Kaitlyn and myself try franticly to conform to expected behaviour. Some are more successful than others in copying the behaviours, but in the end we have to give in to reality.


Chloe, I'm not saying that transwomen rewire their brains to get to a point where they want to transition. I know that you, Kaitlyn, and others needed to align your physical bodies with your internal gender ID.

So far I have only read the synopsis that you posted, but there is something in this exchange that makes me profoundly uneasy. In the synopsis, we read of many ways in which the brain evolves or adapts to cope with loss of function. None of what you quoted says that the brain changes fundamental behaviour, but the concept that the brain might re-wire itself to make someone who is not transsexual want to go through the hardships of transition and to make them become TS is what worries me.

If this concept is validated, then it opens the way to the opposite - so-called "reparative therapy" whereby someone tries to either cajole or condition someone into becoming cisgendered (in our case).

You see, if the brain can rewire itself to make someone who is fundamentally a man become TS, then it should be possible using external stimuli (as in the stroke example) to make the brain rewire itself the other way around, and that is what makes me so uneasy.

Fortunately, so far all the empirical evidence is against the theory of "reparative therapy" in whatever domain.

A few years ago, "reparative therapy" was used to try to cajole people like my oldest brother to stop being left-handed. Whilst some were able to learn the behaviour that would prevent the punishment it did not make them right-handed. This type of conditioning is now discredited.

Those who have read my story will know that I was involved from my adolescence with a group that taught that heterosexuality and cis-gender were merely a question of making the right choices, so I tried that for years without success.

I have to join with Chloe to wonder, if it is possible for the brain to rewire itself to the point where a man thinks he is TS, why then did all the desperate attempts to rewire our own brains to believe that what we know is not true fail?

Even more worrying to me is that this idea would set us back about 40 - 50 years to the era of John Money's dangerous theories about gender and conditioning.

ReineD
10-25-2011, 04:02 AM
If this concept is validated, then it opens the way to the opposite - so-called "reparative therapy" whereby someone tries to either cajole or condition someone into becoming cisgendered (in our case).

Yes, this is worrisome. I'm not a psychologist, but it seems to me a brain would respond better to reward rather than punishment. I don't know how successful aversion therapy is. But I am familiar with the process of addiction and compulsion and it is possible for people to come to need certain substances or situations they didn't need before. I can look around and post a link to an article that explains the feel-good brain chemistry that is involved.

Kaitlyn Michele
10-25-2011, 06:00 AM
It doesn't apply to you because you were transsexual (now a woman), but can you say for sure that someone else might not convince themselves they are transsexual, after a lifetime of having had their brain release all the pleasure chemicals associated with feminine presentation? The point is, little enough is known about the brain to say for sure that all people who will want to transition were gender-incongruent from the beginning, or they were in denial about themselves for years. And again, what difference does it make if someone is gender-incongruent from the beginning, or they get there through other means?

And I'm not saying that anyone can rewire themselves into wanting to be another gender. It would take a very strong compulsion to do this, I should think, combined with perhaps an unhappy life in the birth gender. And who knows, maybe other conditions such as depression?

Edit ... Don't get me wrong Kaitlyn. I'm not doubting the motives of transwomen who wish to transition. I'm saying there is a possibility there are many others who are not gender-incongruent, who think they want to transition as well. .... surely you've read this in many threads here and in the M2F section?

Reine, i just noticed a thread on mtf...it was pretty funny...a husband, liking "housework" claiming the womanhood in the marriage....what if his pleasure chemicals get going?? LOL....and you on a tractor??? i can't imagine!!!

Pls know that i understand this...i know you are not doubting,...far from it...i know you deeply care about this stuff from your own perspective.....so no worries!

I grew up with more POSITIVE male feedback than is possible.. it was idyllic... my parents, my school, my sports, my leisure activities... i desperately wanted to stay a man.. but my brain did not rewire... this is the data i have in my own life that a brain can't rewire... this is rianna's point on the idea of fundamental behavior....

it's not a judgement on the whether another person is worthy of transition... i believe in transition equality!!!

It's an observation that a person with a female gender identity is stuck in it...and accepting that is what transition is..it is not becoming anything..
It is brutally destructive, expensive, painful, and lonely....and the reward is basically that you feel like yourself...
you get through it because you have no choice..

my conclusion from my observation is that every single person that attempts to transition because of reasons outside of their internal core identity will very likely fail...

my worry is that if this group of people you are talking about, which i totally agree has the right to transition should they choose, will end up being poster children for people that hate transsexuals.
its already happened...Charles Kane??? this fool raises his hand and gets on national tv...

and the final observation to be clear is to focus on the anonymous nature of this forum...i think alot of it is just talk...I know more people in life than here...and i just don't see ANY people like the ones you describe...none..people are much more pragmatic when they start having to write checks and tell their kids...

in the light of day, most people that are having cross gender feelings relating to other things will not make it through 2 hours of electrolysis..
and if you do make it, as jeff foxworthy says, you just may be transsexual..

Aprilrain
10-25-2011, 06:21 AM
Yes, this is worrisome. I'm not a psychologist, but it seems to me a brain would respond better to reward rather than punishment. I don't know how successful aversion therapy is. But I am familiar with the process of addiction and compulsion and it is possible for people to come to need certain substances or situations they didn't need before. I can look around and post a link to an article that explains the feel-good brain chemistry that is involved.

Reine, Im not sure what your experience with addiction is but I was clearly alcoholic from the first time I ever got drunk. There is no doubt in my mind that I was BORN with alcoholism (and drug addiction) I did not arrive at it through a system of reward or punishment. In fact i would bet money that any nonalcoholic who had my first drunk would never have taken another drink in her life LOL. In hindsight I can even see where I displayed alcoholic behaviors long before I ever took a drink. I do not believe getting sober was mere behavior modification either, it was a f@#$ing miracle is what it is! There is infinitely more data and research into the physiology and psychology of addiction then there is in to transsexualism and yet they are no closer to understanding why some people are alcoholic and some are not than they were 75 years ago.

The article that you posted speaks mainly to the brains ability to repair PHYSICAL DAMAGE due to stroke or other injury. this is the body repairing a physical part of the body which is what the body is designed to be able to do within reason. Obviously with better science and medical technology humans are able to help the body heal its self from traumas that would have been fatal in the past. Here is the rub, with dis-eases of the mind where do you go to repair it? where is the mind? where is the damage? Is this why psychiatric disorders are so difficult to treat? Some disorders respond to drugs but often with side effects that are as unpleasant to the sufferer as the disease is. I certainly don't have the answers. 12 step programs seem to be the best option for treating addictions but they are by no means 100% effective. Why are some people able to get sober and some just keep falling off the wagon over and over again? "Sufferers" of transsexualism seems to respond the best to the "treatment" of "transition" but as has been documented even this may not be enough to "cure" the sufferer which is probably why we have such a high rate of suicide. Even drugs like anti-depressants are only effective in like half of all case. Obviously the mind is its own animal and probably exist somewhere (everywhere?) in the brain but is IMO much to complex to respond to the type of neroplasticity that the article talks about.

ReineD
10-25-2011, 06:37 AM
Reine, i just noticed a thread on mtf...it was pretty funny...a husband, liking "housework" claiming the womanhood in the marriage....what if his pleasure chemicals get going?? LOL....and you on a tractor??? i can't imagine!!!

Well, someone's gotta do the dirty work. lol The tractor broke last year though, and I didn't get it fixed. Luckily, one of my son's friends started up a lawn mowing business and he's reasonably priced ... so I've not used the tractor this year. And soon I'll be moving and won't need the tractor any more.



my conclusion from my observation is that every single person that attempts to transition because of reasons outside of their internal core identity will very likely fail...

my worry is that if this group of people you are talking about, which i totally agree has the right to transition should they choose, will end up being poster children for people that hate transsexuals.
its already happened...Charles Kane??? this fool raises his hand and gets on national tv...

It could well be, although from personal experience I also have witnessed some awfully powerful rationalizations. It's called cognitive dissonance:

http://changingminds.org/explanations/theories/cognitive_dissonance.htm

Once a person who perhaps should not have transitioned transitions, what choice does she have other than to move forward and try to make the best of things? Admittedly her life will be satisfactory at best, unhappy at worst. She would end up with a lot of issues. But, is this any worse than spending a life convinced he would be happier as a woman? It would be difficult to convince such a person to reconsider transition. And also, not even the most talented professionals can see into someone's heart and mind. They can only rely on self-reporting. I don't know how rigorous are the criteria for determining whether or not someone is a true TS, but I gather from reading some of the threads that it's not that difficult to slip by some of the gate-keepers. I don't know what the answer is, or how something like this can be prevented, or as I proposed earlier, would an unhappy life as a woman be any worse than an unhappy life as a guy pining away to be a woman? It's a difficult situation.

Aprilrain
10-25-2011, 06:49 AM
would an unhappy life as a woman be any worse than an unhappy life as a guy pining away to be a woman? It's a difficult situation.

considering the very high rates of suicide amongst gender variant people its difficult to believe that one would continue on after the "cure" didn't work.

Starling
10-25-2011, 12:47 PM
...most people that are having cross gender feelings relating to other things will not make it through 2 hours of electrolysis...and if you do make it, as jeff foxworthy says, you just may be transsexual...

And, depending on the area being treated, you may also have a red neck.

:heehee: Lallie

Starling
10-25-2011, 01:00 PM
...would an unhappy life as a woman be any worse than an unhappy life as a guy pining away to be a woman? It's a difficult situation.

I finally quit smoking when I decided that I would rather be a non-smoker who occasionally craved a smoke, than a smoker who desperately wanted to quit. The toll on my physical and mental health, I figured, would be much lighter. By the same token, I'd prefer the unhappy life as a woman, which is a widely-shared condition, to pining away. I'd rather fight than languish.

:) Lallie

Kaitlyn Michele
10-25-2011, 05:16 PM
Reine
if you define a person that should not have transitioned and include someone that lives a better life as a woman..then that person SHOULD HAVE transitioned..i bet you a nickel they were ts in denial all along..
a person that should not have transitioned, is by definition not going to have a better life...they should not have transitioned..

I know that i am just talking semantics..but in this case, i think it highlights that in this thread we are looking at totally different angles to a tough question..
you are trying to look in to what's going on with the person...i don't think that's gonna work ..

if you say you need to transition, i can only say that here is what transition is, the default option for all of us is don't transition. you have to do things to transition..here is what they are...here is what they cost..
and do what you think you need to do... we can guess based on lots of factors. but a person must define themselves..the fact that i find it highly unlikely that a person who is in 5 year pink fog will succeed is irrelevant...i can disbelieve a theory around brain neuroplasty all i want, but i can't possibly know!

however, sometimes we can guess, and we do here all the time..hehe
stephanie made a great point on mtf... what would happen to all the yes votes in the i want to be a woman thread if you could not be an attractive woman? if your avatar is jenna elfman, you have to realize you are not gonna be anything like her!!
do you think this is an example of how to help people get to the real cause of their feelings?..realistic assessments of transition can help people get their minds cleared up..
which hopefully is what everyone wants...

Anne2345
10-26-2011, 10:15 PM
[QUOTE=ReineD;2635027]But, TS folk do want to transition eventually, once they've sorted through it all. There are many threads here from

Maiko Newhalf
10-28-2011, 06:12 PM
in the light of day, most people that are having cross gender feelings relating to other things will not make it through 2 hours of electrolysis..
and if you do make it, as jeff foxworthy says, you just may be transsexual..

It is interesting that my electrolygist and I just talked about it the other day. Everytime I wondered why I am doing this but still came into that room the next time...