Do you know anyone?

[jarts55]

Does anyone know someone that transitioned and regreted it afterward?

[Katesback]

While it is hard to really get someone to say they regret it I will say that I have met some that betray regret and a small few that flat out say they regret it.

For the most part these people mentioned they had expectations that were not met. While I did not say to them what I thought I will say here that it was clear to me that every one of them really did not put forth a 100% effort in thier transition and presentation. Meaning they had too many tell tale signs like acting or talking like a male, and 1000 other little tells they did not figure out. Finally as sad as it is to say a very small few look so much like a man that no matter what they did or could do they would never fit in well. Heartbreaking but true.

[CharleneT]

Yes, I know someone who regrets transitioning, although her reasons are complex and so can't be explained without knowing her well. It is worth noting that she does enjoy her life now and doesn't dwell on the issue of whether or not she made a mistake - it is way too late to think that way.

This is one of the reasons I can be found not being a big cheer leader to someone who wants to start transition, unless I have a good feel that they really are TS. It is pretty easy to get going and get all the way to SRS these days. While we talk about "gate keepers", given certain things ( like a diagnosis of GID from a therapist ) the trip from man to SRS is actually fairly easy to arrange. Not an easy path, don't get me wrong there... but easy to get started for sure.

[Sara Jessica]

Yes, I know someone who regretted her decision. It was the ultimate regret on two fronts, first de-transition and then sadly, she took her own life.

Charlene makes a very good point about not being too cheerlead-y because the establishment that serves our vast needs tends to punch your card without challenging you enough. While I believe my friend was in fact TS to the very core of her being, there were other issues which were either ignored or not explored deep enough, either of which is inexcusable.

[Steph.TS]

Yes, I know someone who regretted her decision. It was the ultimate regret on two fronts, first de-transition and then sadly, she took her own life.

Charlene makes a very good point about not being too cheerlead-y because the establishment that serves our vast needs tends to punch your card without challenging you enough. While I believe my friend was in fact TS to the very core of her being, there were other issues which were either ignored or not explored deep enough, either of which is inexcusable.
without exposing too much about your friend, can you give us some information on what we should look out for to make sure we're ready to transition?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I know that christine daniels/mike penner followed the arc sara mentioned... if i'm not mistaken sara that's who you are talking about..

there is lots of info on that story online....christine wrote a wonderful coming out letter that i handed to family and friends dozens of times.... i read the letter 100 times easy ..

i know one person, that fits the profile Kate is talking about ....bitter and angry..and feels like our shared therapist cheerlead her into it....based on what i've seen she had high expectations that were not met..and her appearance makes it difficult for her to gain the acceptance she was hoping for..she can't find a job, and is very militant about it...threatening to sue..had activists involved etc...and all she accomplished with that is destroying her career...

there is no doubt transition is a risk... you become incredibly vulnerable...

If you are fearful of regretting transition, the cold water in the face is that it's just too bad...your choice is to risk regretting transition, or risk regretting you didn't transition...

desperately wanting to be yourself and fearing it as the same time is something that simply must be overcome..

the way to overcome it is to work systematically towards a SUCCESSFUL transition...hair removal, appearance, voice, intelligent disclosure, career management, be realistic about your relationships...etc.etc...ALL this stuff goes into it...

The only good news is you do get a choice at least at first... you can live with the feelings around your identity and all that comes with it....sometimes however people REGRET THAT DECISION!!! i know one very well, she (he?) lied to herself over and over...excuses to wait...always said she was fine...dressed at home....but now at 50+ yrs old. ..bitter and unhappy, feels like her life was wasted...she disclosed to her children POST college, and they were pissed off, hurt that they weren't trusted (now i know dad why you were so distant all the time!!!), and said do whatever you want..and our friendship is kinda over because she can't stand being with me...her bell is rung and she is trapped in the middle..this happens quite often...andif you notice there are lots of middle age transitioners, that get desperate and transition before its "too late"

[Kathryn Martin]

Yes, I know someone who regretted her decision. It was the ultimate regret on two fronts, first de-transition and then sadly, she took her own life.

Charlene makes a very good point about not being too cheerlead-y because the establishment that serves our vast needs tends to punch your card without challenging you enough. While I believe my friend was in fact TS to the very core of her being, there were other issues which were either ignored or not explored deep enough, either of which is inexcusable.

This si such a crucial point. Not every self-proclaimed gender specialist has the wherewithall to make a proper diagnosis. I went to a clinical psychologist who diagnosed and also saw a gender specialist who provided transition support. One of the biggest issues in my view is getting caught up in ones own hype. Those that regret, and there are quite a number of them, seem to not have been brutally honest with themselves about the motives to transition (see Lynn Conway (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html) ). I think that there is often an underlying failure of the gatewatchers to initiate this truly honest reflection. So much lately seems to consist of buzzwords, that trigger a treatment response without actual diagnosis.

Charlene you are right, cheerleading is the wrong response. Support in sober reflection is.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Kathryn I think that you are not quite fair about this...... "......seem to not have been brutally honest with themselves about the motives...." i think you are understating the impact that EVENTS and CIRCUMSTANCES have on a quality of life...

I would note to you that many of the suicides are after de-transitioning, or prior to transitioning......in other words...people stop their transitions, and THEN they attempt suicide...they can't bear to transition, so they attempt to die..
to me that's not about motives for trying to transition, its about being forced to live as a man..

my best TS friend went through this...she detransitioned because after RLT and SRS, the kids were having major problems...it was very sad... her attempt at suicide failed, she reconciled with her ex wife in a way that got the children to a better place, and she is quite satisfied now...although like me, not working after a successful career..i don't think this was about misguided motives...and i think this is closer to the majority of failures rather than doing it for wrong reasons..

i also think its a healthier way to think about it... do the stuff that will improve your life!! 100 hrs of electrolysis and losing your ability to have an erection seem like things that will put a pin in your motives ...

[Aprilrain]

one of the "regret" stories your link took me to is Reine Richerds. She has stated in later interviews that she DID NOT regret transition but rather regretted transitioning publicly via her battle to be able to compete as a woman in tennis. It was the fame she regretted not the transition.

[Phoebe]

Yes I know a M to F who regretted her transition. She had the full treatment at the time of the GRS operation. Breast augmentation and trach shave. She attempted to live as a female in the job market. Had difficulty obtaining a well paying job after recovery. Eventually took a job driving a school bus, then contacted pneumonia from one of the students that rode the bus. Now she presents herself as a male. Took early retirement, lives with a girlfriend she lived with before GRS. Said it would be to costly to go back.

[Katesback]

To expand a bit more on people that regret it.

1. Some were men with fantasies and lots of money and paid for a vagina. Otherwise put they were bugs (nut cases).

2. Some were people that became active in the trans stuff as a trans person and even though they did thier entire transition they could not escape the trans label. Example of this would be people like Donna Rose, ect ect. (not to say she is one that regrets what she has done. Just that she cannot escape being a trans person.

3. Some were people that as I said did not put 100% into thier transition and so they acted like men or looked like men ect ect. They began to regret what they did when they realized that they werent fooling anyone about being a woman.

4. Some put a nice effort into parts of thier transition but did not walk away from thier old life so they constantly were reminded of thier past and did not evolve well. An example MIGHT be the person that stayed married, stayed at the same job even after transition, stayed in the same small town where everyone knew you, I am sure there is more but I think you get the idea.

Katie

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I think there are lots of great points..

the key driver is not that ts people "regret" transition...because they dont.. they regret things that happened to them because they transitioned..

non ts people that transition, that's a different story..

its such an important distinction...and the KEY point is that you need to separate the concepts in your mind.

A.) am i ts? ----------------why? why me? am i sure?? is it sexual? what will people think? these are torture questions....in your deepest heart of hearts...do you believe you are a woman?
B.) what am i gonna do about it?

these are 2 totally and completely seperate issues...the complication is that for many people gender dysphoria/bell is rung (or whatever you call it) is a very real phenomena...i don't know why, I can't explain it, but it happens over and over again, and the misery of that feeling cannot be understated...

many people look at the B.) part, and its so overwhelming that it seems impossible, only to find that they feel so bad they have no choice....and if that person has not fully thought through their quality of life issues, they risk failure, and as we see, folks choose to die rather than feel gender dysphoric!!!!! think about that for a second...

[Melody Moore]

Kathryn I think that you are not quite fair about this......

I don't think so either and when you look at every single case Lyn Conway mentions about here (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html) there are
obvious reasons why these people failed.

April recognised the real reasons for Reine Richerds regretted the fame not the transition. And Kate got it spot on
about Samantha Kane when Kate said "Some were men with fantasies and lots of money and paid for a vagina".

Then take Dani Bunten Berry, her issue was the loss of orgasmic capability. In Lyn Conway's report she says
"her counselors ignored, or were unaware of, key warning flags. She lost her (male) libido when she began taking
estrogen, without any heightening of any female libidinous feelings. This was a predictor that she might possibly
become inorgasmic postop". But my question is how good was the surgeon that performed her GRS/SRS? Does
anyone know anything about who performed her surgery in the early 1990s? I also believe that Dani Berry also
rushed into her transition while she had a lot of other issues going on in her life, a divorce, mid-life crisis and a
cancer scare.

Sandra McDougall also obviously rushed into her GRS/SRS and was not at peace and comfortable with herself
going into surgery. I get the feeling that she hid herself away until she could get GRS/SRS and that would make
her complete as a woman. This is why the RLE is so important. You have to be well adjusted to being able to live
comfortably in your gender role before undergoing surgery and I have seen lots of trans-women who are nowhere
near ready for surgery because they are uneasy being in public. So it makes no sense to me why Sandra McDougall
transitioned.

The take the case about Alan Finch (http://zagria.blogspot.com/2008/03/by-careful-what-you-wish-for-1.html), the English born intersexual who was diagnosed with a missing male chromosome
and started on hormone therapy at the age of 18 in the UK just prior to immigrating to Australia. After arriving in our
country at age 19 with his mother and sister, he continued with his transition with hormone therapy, treatments and
surgery at the Monash Medical Centre’s gender clinic in Melbourne. He failed the psychiatric evaluation the first time,
but had learned the proper answers for a second evaluation, but he managed to bluff his way through the evaluations.
Despite the fact that Alan Finch did this, he accepts no responsibility for any of his decisions.

After transitioning, Helen Finch illegally married an Israeli man who was looking for residence in Australia. The
relationship fell apart because the husband could not cope with her having been born a boy. After this she took
up transcendental meditation and then had an affair with a woman who convinced her to to detransition in 1997.

His new psychiatrist is also into transcendental meditation & ran for Parliament for the Natural Law Party. Alan is suing
the Monash Medical Centre’s gender clinic. This went to the Supreme Court in 2009. This case caused a temporary
moratorium on approving persons for surgery at the Monash. He has appeared in the media and has set up an "advocacy
group" called Gender Identity Awareness Association from where he also voices his support for the Australian ban on
same-sex marriage (http://www.crosswalk.com/1265588/). So I think it is safe to assume that Alan Finch falls into Kate's bugs or nut case category.

[Stephanie47]

I am not an expert on the issue. However, I have seen legitimate news reports/discussions indicating major medical facilities have stopped doing SRS because the success rate was too low for solving the underlying issues that prompt the desire to transition.

[Stephenie S]

While I applaud the discussion of the seriousness of transition, aren't we ignoring the thousands of success stories out there? All of the major transition surgeons are booked way in advance. I have been in this community for 35 years. I have countless friends both in 3D and online who couldn't be more happy with their lives.

I have heard of those who regret, but they seem, almost to a woman (man?), to be those who for whatever reason, failed to follow the protocols in place for their protection.

S

[Beth-Lock]

the key driver is not that ts people "regret" transition...because they dont.. they regret things that happened to them because they transitioned...

I have been astounded at the very high cost of my transition in emotional, psychological and social terms. I started out in a nice pink fog, so optimistic and happy with my new identity and start of RLE. But then I guess transition is not the only thing in life, that you might feel this way about, having got into it in optimism. (Volunteering for the army in time of war is another!)

When I first told a ts who had transitioned successfully, that I was going that way too, she said something like, "I feel sorry for you!" I did not understand what she was talking about at the time, but eventually I sure did.

Despite the attempt to figure out how to predict if a transition will be troubled or even fatal, I thnk it is essentially unknowable in advance. As someone said, in large part it depends on how well it goes, and it is a thing where you learn how to do it, only by doing it. You have to try it to see how easily it comes to you and if your GCS comes off without serious complications. Like a sports game, you can predict outcomes sometimes to some degree, but mostly you have to play the game to see if you win or not, when so many factlors including chance enter.

The Bottom Line: Let's face it, it can be a very hard thing to get through the problems that may arise. But I still would not want to go back.

[Starling]

Although the vast majority of transwomen are happy with their new lives, I think it's important to be reminded periodically--such as by posts like Beth-Lock's--that transition is not a simple or easy process that comes out of a kit, and that some genuinely TS people should not undertake it. As someone who tried to "press on regardless" with her male life despite strong feelings of GID, I am especially interested in data concerning the hazards of transition in later life.

I know there are thousands upon thousands of transsexuals my age who grew up when the "science" of TS was in its infant state, and when the sanctions against gender variance included possible imprisonment and shock treatment. We need to be as certain as possible that for each of us it is worth risking literally everything else for a few years of longed-for congruence.

It is a desperately difficult choice. On the one hand, transition would mean release from a lifelong prison sentence; but on the other, one risks complete exile from the family, friends and pursuits that have made life bearable--along with being labeled not "female" at last, but "senile". And all this without the saving grace of being able to start over with the strength and resilience of youth.

So I welcome the cautionary tales as fully as I do the success stories.

:) Lallie

[Inna]

TRANSITION? DeTRANSITION? SUCCESS? FAILURE?

What are all these about.............................aren't we all after one and only predicament? and that is SELF!!!!

To understand and perceive your self in a clear, unobstructed view is almost entirely impossible, living our lives in conformity and rigidity of societal-peer pressure.
Seams that word TRANSITION will be perceived and its repercussions shall become different set of circumstances to different people!
For someone who felt entirely female from birth and was aware of natures mistake, such transition will be much different then to the person who discovered late in their life that wearing female clothing makes them feel different and perhaps happier and fuller but they cant put their finger on the feeling other then feeling good or better about them selves. Both instances could be an expression of transsexuality however in different mental circumstances and entirely different denial aspects.

Therapy is paramount but there again we deal with aspect of human error magnified by subjects willingness or even awareness of their own true self. Some may be brutally honest with them selves and then some may be unable or unaware to their misconceptions and illusions.

DeTransition shall be a part of this living environment, dissatisfaction, disappointment, failure........ BUT!!!!!

Think of it this way, how many genetic woman and man complain about their lives wanting to escape the circumstances of their realities escaping into all sorts of scenarios, how many have issues with their personalities! Failure is a natural process of nature, trial and error, for some, success is to transition for others coping with life becomes unbearable, and then some regress and perhaps find peace there.

But what is constant, is that for all of us we journey through gender variant realm of life seeking wholeness within and without!!

[Sara Jessica]

I know that christine daniels/mike penner followed the arc sara mentioned... if i'm not mistaken sara that's who you are talking about..

there is lots of info on that story online....christine wrote a wonderful coming out letter that i handed to family and friends dozens of times.... i read the letter 100 times easy ..

This is correct Kaitlyn, I was referring to Christine and trying to get by without naming names. But all is good, her story is important.

And yes, a discussion of those who flame out for whatever reason tends to ignore the success stories. But these tales still have value for those considering such a momentous decision about their own future.


4. Some put a nice effort into parts of thier transition but did not walk away from thier old life so they constantly were reminded of thier past and did not evolve well. An example MIGHT be the person that stayed married, stayed at the same job even after transition, stayed in the same small town where everyone knew you, I am sure there is more but I think you get the idea.

Kate put down some very good examples and this one pegs Christine's situation on a number of fronts, IMHO.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I hope Beth that you are Ok..

The costs are enormous ...bad things almost always happen... a simple cost benefit is not possible..

the unrealistic ideas people about transition are almost universal..i had them...i was elated to "start" transition...and the letdown is something that must be overcome...
stopping and restarting is not uncommon...

Sara, sorry if i outed your friendship... i thought you had mentioned it before..unfortunately the legacy of her story is something that continues to impact people..its the cost of a public life i guess...no question that people have failed to create a good quality of themselves through transition...we know many of these stories because the story of a person that successfully transitions is boring to people, and most people that are successful don't want their story told..

[Sejd]

I have a good friend who just transitioned one year ago. She is right now OK about the change, but her remark on the question was, and I quote "It hasn't changed anything in my life". for me, it could me a thumbs up or down, doesn't matter. I am a bit worried about how she is going to carve out her new life. She still look very male. It's a tough call. I consider myself Trans Gender although I have not surgically changed my body. When it comes down to it, this is a very fluid field where each individual must do some real soul searching and make decisions which are ultimately very personal. There is a Swedish study which came out last year which proved that the suicide rate is greater for people who go all the way, compared to the trans people who do not change surgically. I did not make this up, it's a university study. What to make of this, I don't know but I have the personal experience of being pushed in a certain direction by a gender therapist and to this day I am glad that I did not blindly follow in that direction with blindfolds on. I know that you can have all the good intentions in this world to do whatever, but ultimately it is your life and the practicality of it that determines how you are going to fare in the years ahead. I am like most of you. I struggle every day to navigate this condition. I don't mind. This is what I have to do and I have moments of great joy and moments of frustration. Both are a part of real life. I wish we could sometimes embrace that part more here on the forum. The middle part, which is not all happy or all bad, but the everyday getting by as Trans Gender human beings.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

Here is the study. I was not aware of the latest study..good find sejd...(although i do wish you would stop saying stuff like "you are not a woman" to people)

I'd bet my life (oops I did!!) that the rates of suicide for nontransition ts people is much higher, but we can never know that...the relevant statistic is a comparison.. transsexualism truly causes suicides, and lots of them...we'll never know how many suicides are averted ...

This is the money quote conclusion of the abstract..
Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

It's not don't transition, it's for some people they need MORE than transition..the study also noted that many ts people moved on and did not participate in the study..i bet those were heavily skewed towards happy ts people..

What is missing from the study is that there is a huge difference between people that plan out and execute transition and get some luck... and those that don't. It is a sad fact that the affordability and difficulty cause alot of problems..

To the person that says "it hasn't changed anything in my life" ...well join the club...all srs does is makes you feel complete and alive..it eliminates gender dysphoria...that's it....and there is no question that unpassable and manly transsexuals have it very rough..alleviating gender dysphoria includes being socially able to function...and although i know a number of people that would probably say the same thing, but they would also say they had to do it..

If you don't feel srs is neccessary to survive, I urge you to NOT do it!!! its the people that feel a desperate need to have a womans body, but can't find a way to do it that i worry about..
people that don't feel like they need srs are lucky ..

You are either not a good candidate (not ts) or you are denying yourself...
i either was a good candidate or i screwed up my life...
In any case, i'm glad we are talking about it...

INNA"s post is a wonderful expression of the uncertainty and uniqueness around each of our paths in all of this..

[Jorja]

Yes, there are those out there who do regret having srs. I know a few of them. They are a minority in the world of srs. Many of them jumped in and went for it not totally understanding the what and why of what they were doing. There are many more out there like myself that rejoice every second of the day that it is even possible.
Those who say, "it hasn't changed anything in my life" are correct to a point. It does and can eliminate gender dysphoria by making us complete which is 97% of our problem to start with. So having srs has in fact changed something in your life. A person needs to be well balanced mentally and fully understand that srs is not a cure for all of your problems. Having your penis turned inside out and stuffed up inside of you does nothing for you if other problems exist. Work on those problems in your life that need to be taken care of first. Then explore the option of srs.
For anyone considering srs, it is not the IN thing to do like say, getting piercings. If you do not have that deep burning need to be complete, do not do it because you will be sorely disappointed in the outcome. If you understand and still need to be complete, it can make a huge difference in your life.

I just wanted to add, most of us are not born rich. The cost of transition, ffs, srs can be and are staggering. Unless you have a rich uncle or a sugar daddy you will find it difficult to come up with that kind of money. It took me 15 years of working two and three jobs and just doing without to save up enough money. There is an old saying that truely applies here. If there is a will, there is a way.

[Aprilrain]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

Here is the study. I was not aware of the latest study..good find sejd...(although i do wish you would stop saying stuff like "you are not a woman" to people).

we will probably forever be hampered by a lack of real useful information on the subject due to the extremely low numbers of individuals who choose to participate and also the likely hood that people who transition successfully simply have no interest in participating in such studies.

[Jorja]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

Here is the study. I was not aware of the latest study..good find sejd...(although i do wish you would stop saying stuff like "you are not a woman" to people)

I'd bet my life (oops I did!!) that the rates of suicide for nontransition ts people is much higher, but we can never know that...the relevant statistic is a comparison.. transsexualism truly causes suicides, and lots of them...we'll never know how many suicides are averted ...

This is the money quote conclusion of the abstract..
Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

It's not don't transition, it's for some people they need MORE than transition..the study also noted that many ts people moved on and did not participate in the study..i bet those were heavily skewed towards happy ts people..

What is missing from the study is that there is a huge difference between people that plan out and execute transition and get some luck... and those that don't. It is a sad fact that the affordability and difficulty cause alot of problems..

To the person that says "it hasn't changed anything in my life" ...well join the club...all srs does is makes you feel complete and alive..it eliminates gender dysphoria...that's it....and there is no question that unpassable and manly transsexuals have it very rough..alleviating gender dysphoria includes being socially able to function...and although i know a number of people that would probably say the same thing, but they would also say they had to do it..

If you don't feel srs is neccessary to survive, I urge you to NOT do it!!! its the people that feel a desperate need to have a womans body, but can't find a way to do it that i worry about..
people that don't feel like they need srs are lucky ..

You are either not a good candidate (not ts) or you are denying yourself...
i either was a good candidate or i screwed up my life...
In any case, i'm glad we are talking about it...

INNA"s post is a wonderful expression of the uncertainty and uniqueness around each of our paths in all of this..

The thing I see wrong with this report is that there were only 324 people involved. As with many studies in the medical field this is too small a sampling to draw any firm conclusions from when looking at the transsexual community world wide.

[Beth-Lock]

I hope Beth that you are Ok..

In fact, I am not.






Motto: It is a cold, hard world full of cold, hard people who are only pretenders.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The thing I see wrong with this report is that there were only 324 people involved. As with many studies in the medical field this is too small a sampling to draw any firm conclusions from when looking at the transsexual community world wide.

If you read the whole link , there is a line that says exactly that...

[Sejd]

Aprilrain. You bring up a good point. There is just not a lot of studies to support some real guidance here. The medical world is not so focussed on our tiny group of individuals, sad to say. Another good reason why TG people should engage in the medical field to change this. I truly wish we had more studies and more help to support our GLBT communities.

[Sejd]

Jorja, Just want to tell you that I like the way you write and think about things. Thanks

[Sara Jessica]

Sara, sorry if i outed your friendship... i thought you had mentioned it before..unfortunately the legacy of her story is something that continues to impact people..its the cost of a public life i guess...no question that people have failed to create a good quality of themselves through transition...we know many of these stories because the story of a person that successfully transitions is boring to people, and most people that are successful don't want their story told..

Kaitlyn, there's no need to apologize. You did a great job reading between the lines and really, it's nice that you remembered what I had written quite some time ago to the point where you could put two & two together.

Not wishing to take away from this discussion, with the date coming up when it's been two years since Christine's passing, I have it in mind to post some thoughts about her at that time but sometime beforehand, I'm likely to start a thread to talk more about MY choice, my middle path. These subjects are forever linked in my world and are a distinct tangent from what is being discussed in this thread.