Are Cis-man, cis-woman, trans-man and trans-woman the only genders?

[Rianna Humble]

In another thread, Reine asked the following question of us TS folk:


Do you believe it is possible for a person to not be just a male, and not be just a female, but have some sort of gender ID mix or blend? To be cognizant of their male proclivities while at the same time not fully identifying male? A third gender, so to speak. A true "trans" (mixture) state of being.

I ask because my SO is like this. She is not a transwoman nor is she a wannabe. She is also not a fetish CD nor does she live in a fantasy world. She loves being with women, she relates to other women as a woman, and there are many aspects of being a guy that he doesn't understand or agree with such as the stereotypical beer, sports, car, and hunting stuff. When she expresses femininity it is natural to her. She feels as close to a female as it is within her ability to feel. She goes out looking just like a regular GG. It's not about glam for her, although at times it has been just like anyone else.

Might someone like this live a life straddling both sides of the fence and if they do, does it mean they have any less capacity for feeling female as anyone else?

I don't know if I'm describing her accurately since I don't live in her skin, but I am just asking. The reason I ask, is if you believe there might be a chance that the people who posted sentiments that April quoted might also feel the same way. If they do, I've got to believe that it is challenging to live as a non-binary gender in a binary world. How do you describe your feelings to binary people such as cis-sexuals and transsexuals when you feel this way?

Since she was castigated for asking the question in the context of a thread that was questioning the sentiments of a cross-dresser,I thought I would give it a thread of its own.

I'll start the ball rolling by saying that I firmly believe in the "two spirit" or "dual gender" concept,by which I mean that I believe that there are some people who are neither cisgender nor transsexual but who genuinely are both male and female without necessarily having the physical characteristics of both.

[Jorja]

In another thread, Reine asked the following question of us TS folk:



Since she was castigated for asking the question in the context of a thread that was questioning the sentiments of a cross-dresser,I thought I would give it a thread of its own.

I'll start the ball rolling by saying that I firmly believe in the "two spirit" or "dual gender" concept,by which I mean that I believe that there are some people who are neither cisgender nor transsexual but who genuinely are both male and female without necessarily having the physical characteristics of both.

I guess I missed Reine's post the first time around. I have known a few people that fit into this category. They seem to be able to be either when they need/want to be or strangely both at the same time. I don't know how they do it. I have hard enough time just being me.

[Sally24]

Judging from the number of terms that apply to people "between" the binary I've got to beleive that it is possible. I'm kind of a all or nothing gal so it doesn't apply to me at all.

[Alyla]

Hello

Living in a binary world? I am. It seems we as humans have a need to put things into boxes, neat little boxes all wrapped up and placed on the library shelf ordered by the dewey decimal system. So, we might retrieve them easiy and to make a point, by saying, " it says so right here." Tangental to that, we like to thump our breast/chests and say, "I must define myself, don' you dare tell me who or what I am."

As I have grown older, I am trying to just be... My life was not very congruent, at a very young age, I used a cup protector and playdough in some very original ways, I played with girls, I was in literature, and dramatic clubs ( mostly girls ) and mechanical drawing, math, wrestling, baseball etc. Always wondered why I couldn't play field hockey, looked like fun.

I do feel dual spirited. There I said it. It has been a long road to my self assuredness. I do not postulate in public about this nature of things as I percieve it, it is not worth the arguement. Things will happen over time, the extremes will vanish, the continuim will evolve, new understandings wil be created. Evolution of the mind is a slow creative process, patience with the world and others is required. We can't always have what we wish for "Right Now." I hope that some day the words: " live and let live " will be actualized by society. Thus said, I will wait for eternity to become a calm ocean, a new reality crawling from the consciousness of the sea.

Well, I have proceeded to go over the edge. So long for now.
Alyla

My woman is the ocean
Slowly undulating before me
The waves slowly lapping at the sands
Washing the footprints of the past,
As I hold out my arms,
And wade into her.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I wish i knew...so many people could be helped

the world is certainly set up for binary gender in every single way..it is certainly the vast majority of people that are binary gendered..

but given what i have been through and how my condition is incomprehensible to so many people, i can certainly allow that internal gender is way more fluid.... there are intersex people, why wouldn't their be intergender people?

we do live in a binary world though..its also possible that people feel dual gendered because of outside factors that don't allow them to fully accept their transsexual status...

[Steph.TS]

my views might be a bit concervative but I believe there is Male and Female. I like the binary system I just wish society would allow us to change from male to female and vice versa. I might be wrong but I think people that say that are both genders are thinking in 2 boxes, defining what is male and what is female (in terms of behavior, interests etc...).

I say this because I work with a beautiful woman and she knows how to do her nails, take care of her hair, and do her makeup, she does these things that are stereotypical for women to do, but she also like video games, including ones with zombies. Zombies and video games are more typically a guy interest but seeing her interested in this doesn't make me think she's transgender, dual gendered or two spirit. before I became aware of transgender 2 terms were known to me to refer to people living outside their gender expectations, tomboy and sissy/girly boy. what if we are thinking in the gender binray system and judging ourselves with this gender binary system seeing elements of both genders in our behaviours or interests and instead of saying I am a woman born in a male body but I'm kind of a tomboy we say we're two spirit or dual gender.

I think especially in the transgender community learned behaviour is something we have as a result of our nature, and as for interests living in a male world as a woman we're going to get exposed to different interests. Just like trying new foods you might try something that doesn't look and seems appetizing but once you taste it might be something you enjoy, something we might have missed out on if we stuck to stereotypical gender roles.

sometimes being a TS woman sucks but in this role we are forced to learn things we wouldn't is we have been born with female bodies. likewise we also missed out on learning things we would have had thing been different as well.

[arbon]

In another thread, Reine asked the following question of us TS folk:



I'll start the ball rolling by saying that I firmly believe in the "two spirit" or "dual gender" concept,by which I mean that I believe that there are some people who are neither cisgender nor transsexual but who genuinely are both male and female without necessarily having the physical characteristics of both.

I believe that there are a lot of such people. There can also be a lot of pressure for them to go one way or the other when neither feels right for them, a lot of that pressure is from the TS community I think. Consider all the people who are identify as androgynous or gender queer.

[Marcyme]

Most definitely, I believe there is NOT just male and female! Every person no matter how cis gendered, has aspects of there personality that are considered that of the opposite gender. Gender is a social construction. Many societies have constructed it differently over time and place. It is constructed to fit the needs of the society, and as the society changes, so does its construction of gender. Third genders have places in many societies.
As with sexuality, I see gender on a continuum. Say 1 is female and 10 is male. Most genetic females fall from 1-4 and most genetic males fall 7-10, but that leaves a lot of middle ground. Many of us fall in that middle ground, but for many reason and pressure from society, we push ourselves to one side or the other. While it is true many gf's and gm's identify with the opposite end of the scale, others feel if they are not one, they must be the other. It is sad that we deny ourselves our true identities. I hypothesize that if we were are true to ourselves, and not the external pressures, gender would look much different than it does now.
For myself, I feel like an octagon peg. I am sort of round, but don't fit in a round hole, I have flat sides, like the square, put I don't fit in that hole either!
It is not bi-gendered, multi-gendered, or trans gendered! It is I-gendered!! That is my gender is mine, as unique as my personality and comprised of many aspect that are labeled male and female.
JMHO after many years of sociology/gender studies, and 40 years of being me, and octagon.

[JulieK1980]

I believe it is quite possible. Physically it is not that uncommon for someone to be born intersex. Born with some of the physical parts of both genders. I see no reason to believe it is not possible for someone to have the same effect in their brain. Whether it be a "hormone dump" as a fetus, or a genetic factor, or even an environmental influence, I have no doubt that some of us end up with the biochemistry of both genders. I think this topic turns contentious to many (in much the same way the nature vs. nurture argument does) because it questions the absolutes of our society. For some, they can conceive of only a male or female binary society. However, most of the more ancient societies accepted a third gender and even Christianity mentions people of both genders. So, I would say yes a binary gender society leaves a large chunk of our society out. In my own opinion I see it as more of a spectrum. Most people fall on the ends of it, being either male or female, and then there are those of us that fall somewhere in the middle of that spectrum. There are too many variations of transgendered for me to believe it can be absolute or even clear cut.

[Frances]

I see a lot people mixing gender, sex, gender expression, gender roles and gender-associated interests here. While it is possible to conceive of a feminine man as a different gender than a masculine man, in the context of transsexuality, it does not matter. The path for transsexuals is not necessarily towards feminine woman. To me a butch lesbian masculine transgendered woman is the same gender as Scarlett Johansson.

There may be lots of people between genders or combining elements of both, but are they really? There is an overlap between the most feminine of men (think Johnny Weir) and the most masculine of women (not many famous ones unfortunately... Leslie Feinberg?). So how come Johnny is not considered a woman? Gender may be a social construct, but there is no overlap between sexes as defined by law, unless you are intersexed.

[AllieSF]

Living in this binary, black and white world brings order and clarity to most of our daily activities and encounters with others. However, as so many have said, especially Alyla above, life and all of us who make up life are not so black and white. We have crossdressers who are into panties and others like me who strive to look as feminine as possible. We have the butch MtF transsexuals to the super femme ones. There are spectrums within spectrums. So, count me in as a believer of two spirited people with their own spectrum. We always seem to get the clarifications about gender versus sex, versus whatever. Yes, those are good points to make, but a lot of what I think that Rhianna and ReineD are talking about is what we are in our own minds and that has a myriad of descriptions, which I believe are all correct.

[*Vanessa*]

Absolutely without any hesitation I can address this question that Reine proposes;
"Do you believe it is possible for a person to not be just a male, and not be just a female, but have some sort of gender ID mix or blend? To be cognizant of their male proclivities while at the same time not fully identifying male? A third gender, so to speak. A true "trans" (mixture) state of being."

The Tri-gender notion:

The main problem in arguing this point is all reference comes from a known physiology that wants to see things in reference to a single binary. This approach IMHO is old school. Like switches in the computers of today, they are either 1 or 0 / off or on. However, to illustrate a more complex notion I will use the very new switches that are being developed and working. They can be somewhat on and somewhat off at the same time. Not to confuse the issue but these new switches are a thousand times more powerful than their predecessors.

The point I am making here does not include any perspective from an intersexed individual, transsexuals or cross-dressers. Also, the tri-gender may very well transition at any time or stay with their birth gender (fluid without being wishy-washy).

To me a Transgender or bi-gender (a much sexier North American name) is that foundation for the tri-gender. I am also stating this not as some biological slam towards anyone how is transitioning or towards anyone who likes to experience the ‘other’ gender by cross-dressing.
This tri-gender person in street-terms is a ‘Switch’. To illustrate this in a possible living scenario consider; an artist creating work and in this example a male. He is using his brain to create a work of art, both perceiving and conceiving the work as he gives birth to it. This artist either knowing it or not is connected/using the female mind to process the work. It could be as simple as a chemical balance that is out of whack in the switch, but here the argument is a tri-gender.

Personally I am trying to build this notion to gain some happiness in my life. For the most part I have never fit into typical male or transitioning rules. Many here have seen me implode, a clash of my female side wanting to express life while the male side is in her way. I recognize and agree with most who have suggested I seek gender therapy help so that I can transition properly and become a happy camper.

I feel today, that I have missed that transition train. I cannot live on the male train and I am very familiar with being a switch. Tri-gender to me means a full life. If I get the chance I will seek help with a gender therapist, but I am pretty sure as I write this, it is to find middle grown as a switch and not a step towards single binary coded female goodness. My mind does not read as some transsexual do. I don’t believe that if a person is neither completely male nor female then they are not a viable human, nor one that is just screwed up.

[Hope]

Is Gay or strait the only options for sexuality?

Is Black or Blond the options for hair color?

Is big or small the only options for clothes?

Is Strawberry or vanilla the options for ice cream?

Of course Cis or trans Man/woman aren't the only options. If for no other reason, there is always the androgynous option. But like EVERYTHING else about humanity, we exist in almost infinite variety along a wide spectrum of possibilities.

[noeleena]

Hi ,

I spos your talking about me then . im nether male or female yet both. & to confuse my issue i think as both male & female at the some time, or, my thinking can not be seperated , i prefer weird nuts mad even or just plain insane. really just means i dont have to prove what or who i am. simple to my way of thinking .

Yet after all said & done im just accepted as a woman who is different, & if you get it i only used two words as lables male & female. yet does that really sum up who i am , no of cause not its the all of who i am as a person that makes me who i am. & that even depends on how im percived,

...noeleena...

[Julia_in_Pa]

It is confirmed each day I'm alive that there is more to gender then what you listed in your original question.
I'm intersexed.
I live as the Brain sex that I am which is female.

I also love my handgun collection and drink whiskey. YAY!!


Julia

[Kaitlyn Michele]

if there are more than two brain sexes, the challenge is expressing it...
gender flows two ways...we express it , and people express it to us.. looking like a woman is not your gender...it is an expression.

as a woman, i could no longer function as male..it was destroying me to try...and to transition i needed it expressed back to me!!

your challenge as gender queer, tri gender person is to have your gender flow back to you...you can express it however you like..but you unless you are IS, you have one type of body parts...
it is not feasible to present as 3rd gender...no one will respond to you as such..how do you handle this?

[*Vanessa*]

I hope Rianna and Reine both see that this person is not simply a person that is balancing between genders, but unique. This person shows as someone who mostly exist in their head to find their balance, yet presents as one of the other genders to physically move through the world.

No one has stated anything about what the body would look like or preform in a sexual way and to tell the truth I am not sure I will either as there is so little talk on this subject without it derailing into some perversion. It is possible for a male to have an internal orgasm without ejaculating. They are far more intense almost violent then a 'normal' male orgasm.

I hear echos in this thread, yet they are all abstract. I believe this is addressing need to solidify a psychology. That person is definitely not me, but I am sure at some point that person will come along. To the abstract and to this point, have you seen and heard Jill Bolte Taylor story?

Jill Bolte Taylor got a research opportunity few brain scientists would wish for: She had a massive stroke, and watched as her brain functions -- motion, speech, self-awareness -- shut down one by one. An astonishing story (http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=515786612666).

How does this relate? The answer is in the abstract...

[Pythos]

Yes there are....I am dating one now. She is a marvelous person that has had to hide it her whole life till she became an adult.

She is what is called intersexed, in other words, the great maker itself made her the way that was wanted. She is 90% female and the rest is male, that being her overall build.

Sadly she thinks of herself as a "Freak" in the negative, which I blame on our stupid and ignorant Binary cultures.

I myself, though 100% male, have the mind and emotions of both. I consider myself "gender fluid" and go from one to the other in what seems like milliseconds...the truth is, I am just me.

[Melody Moore]

I too am intersex but was surgically assigned to be a male as a 3 year old infant, however my mind and my overall body
shape is female. Being intersex means I have some physiological features that are both male and female and therefore
I believe that a similar type of condition can also affect the brain itself because it isn't developed until the later part of
foetal development before we were born. See: http://www.shb-info.org/sexbrain.html.

Being intersex proves that there are many shades in between the two primary genders of male and female. As Alysa said,
gender does not fit neatly into little boxes and it cannot be packaged up & put on a library shelf in a neatly ordered system.

Gender is not binary and the diversity with gender is that continuum between the two main gender identities of Male & female.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXI9w0PbBXY

[Rianna Humble]

Having read and appreciated all of the comments so far, I feel I should apologise at this point that perhaps I was not sufficiently explicit in my question.

I had no intention to cast any doubt on the realities of intersex people's lives, but was hoping to discuss gender identity rather than sex-at-birth.

Still, as with all threads, they have a life of their own, and this one has followed an interesting bifurcation (now that's a long word after a 19 hour day :heehee:).

[Fractured]

if there are more than two brain sexes, the challenge is expressing it...
gender flows two ways...we express it , and people express it to us.. looking like a woman is not your gender...it is an expression.

This seems to be the crux of the problem. For various reasons, it appears that society prefers a binary system and doesn't like that binary to be challenged. If society would reflect back a person's expressed gender (particularly if it was not male or female) then we wouldn't be having discussions like these.

I have a hard time comprehending a third or multiple genders because I was not exposed to them (until joining this forum and exploring who I am). But because I have a hard time comprehending does not mean they don't exist. I am willing to accept that they do exist on faith until such time as it is proven they don't exist.

[Melody Moore]

I had no intention to cast any doubt on the realities of intersex people's lives, but was hoping to discuss gender identity rather than sex-at-birth.
Rianna, at no point did I ever feel that you were casting any doubts on the realities of intersex people's lives.

My point is if I can be born intersex with both male & female physical attributes then I see this no different with gender identity.
I also see transsexualism as an intersex condition because there is more and more evidence now to prove that transsexual female
brain is nothing like the typical male brain (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341803) at all, and shares the same number of neurons in the limbic nucleus as natal female brain (http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full).

We also know how this process occurs through the research of Dr Dick F Swaab (http://www.shb-info.org/sexbrain.html).

So this is why I believe there are a multitude of gender identity types that sit between the two poles of Male and Female.

[ReineD]

The statistics on US intersex sites say that 1 in 1,600 people are born not strictly XX or XY. The numbers change depending on the type of intersex condition.

http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

Still, 1:1600 is a lot more common than I would have imagined, since I guess people tend to hide their intersex conditions while growing up even if they do know about it. Or maybe the parents don't tell the kids in hopes they will fit into their birth assigned gender. Which brings me to my next question. Are all babies automatically given genetic or chromosomal testing? If not, then I wonder how many CDers are in fact, intersex in some form or another. It appears as if sexual ambiguity is also on a scale, from milder cases where there is no indication from external sexual characteristics there is any ambiguity, to more severe cases where it is immediately apparent?

And if there is a chromosomal ambiguity or mixture, then how much would this affect hormones and might this also have an affect on intrinsic gender identity?

It's just a thought.


Edit - Well, here is one answer on the same site. It's a good resource!

http://www.isna.org/faq/end_secrecy

Edit2 - And there are more answers here. I should have read the entire site before posting. :p

http://www.isna.org/faq/transgender

[Melody Moore]

The statistics on US intersex sites say that 1 in 1,600 people are born not strictly XX or XY. The numbers change depending on the type of intersex condition.
And those numbers of intersex being born are also very similar for those that are diagnosed with GID and are transsexual
which is another reason why they are very similar, although intersex people have different needs to the TS/TG community.

And thanks for posting those links, especially this one: http://www.isna.org/faq/end_secrecy
I personally believe there are more of us here even on this forum that are intersex and are not
even aware of it. As I said, I had no idea that I was born intersex until I started my transition
and the doctors and myself began to question these things and I had further test done to confirm
it. Most of my therapy since then has been about dealing with the secrecy, cover ups and lies that
has gone on with my condition. I was very angry with both of my parents in the beginning, but now
I realise they only believed they were doing the right thing by giving me a 'gender identity'. :straightface: