I have a friend - A woman makes room for another on the middle path

[Sara Jessica]

Roll with me on this one. It could get long but it's something I've been contemplating putting down in writing for quite some time now. But I'm finding myself inspired by a letter written to me by a friend. She writes...


Today, at therapy, I admitted that I am transsexual, and that I want to be a woman.

What a momentous day for her. There is such relief in her words, such joy, along with a tremendous resolve to stay on a middle path. Much like the middle path I find myself on. So I write this to contemplate my place in genderland. Yes, this is mostly about me. But in doing so, it gives me a golden opportunity to share with her both the happiness along with the minefields that she will likely encounter as she embraces her essence while living the life she has built around her, not to mention sharing with anyone on a middle path, that this is a valid place to reside.

When did I come to such a revelation? Was it at the age of my earliest memories?

spoken aloud...

Now I lay me down to sleep
I pray the lord my soul to keep
If I die before I wake
I pray the lord my soul to take

thoughts immediately thereafter...

Oh and by the way, when I do wake, please make sure I'm a girl.

Yes, it was at this tender age that the seeds were sprouting as they clearly had already been sown by a process unknown to all of us.

Gosh knows I somehow chose to keep quite about this whole thing. Why? I could never say. Did I do or say something that I cannot remember that was quashed by my parents with all the right intentions, only to lead a child to understand that this is a thing we shall not speak about? Was I admonished after getting caught in my mom's closet? I cannot say. However, I have such admiration for those children who find it in themselves to disclose their true nature at such a young age.

But I digress.

I lived my life, like many of us did. I came of age, I dated, I graduated from college, I married my soulmate, we had children. All during a time when information about Gender Identity Disorder was largely clinical, or at least that is what I found. Surely I was the only one who felt this way and those who sought help were greeted with attempts to "cure". Electro-shock therapy was my favorite one to read about, or at least the one which reinforced my childhood decision to stay quiet. Yes, there was a bit of a media presence. Sensational portrayals on the likes of Phil Donahue and even Oprah Winfrey back in the day. My recollection was that these were not the most sensitive presentations.

Fast forward to the time within the last decade or so. The time of my own personal renaissance. Or better put, the time when I validated my place on the TG continuum. The time when I truly accepted myself.

I acknowledged that yes, I am a transsexual.

Wait, let's back up just a second.

I acknowledged that yes, I am a woman.

Isn't that what it's all about? Last time I checked, there were but two genders, male & female. Isn't the cliche "I'm a woman trapped in a man's body" an essential ingredient in coming to a conclusion that one is transsexual? So a TS is what one might be labeled by the medical & psychological communities. TS might be a good box for society to put us in because gosh knows the Muggles have a hard time viewing us through their gender binary sunglasses. TS is therefore a box that is checked to describe us, to describe our condition. More of an adjective rather than a noun.

Woman, a noun. I kind of like the ring of it.

(more to follow...)

[Melody Moore]

Isn't the cliche "I'm a woman trapped in a man's body" an essential ingredient in coming to a conclusion that one is transsexual

It might be a clichè but the answer to that question is "No!". Many transsexuals never felt 'trapped' in the wrong body
or knew they were always meant to be a girl. And using such worn out statements can raise red flags with a therapist.

Personally I just felt like an "Alien" as a child that just didn't fit in anywhere, it took me the best part of 47 years to work
out I was transsexual, but then was to soon discover I was more than that - I was born intersex and had been surgically
altered. It really took me a long time to form a gender identity because the one they assigned to me was the wrong one.

The only essential ingredient to being a transsexual is a person must experience discomfort as a result
of a desire to be a member of the opposite sex, or if a person experiences impaired functioning or
distress as a result of that gender identification. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism

[Sara Jessica]

Makes sense Melody. So rather than use such a cliche as a broad brush to paint with, let's just say that we all experience personal variations on the theme, that something isn't right. You call it feeling alien which I'm sure some will relate to. For me it seemed a bit more black and white, "I must wake up tomorrow a girl, I know it can happen, things just work out that way, don't they???"

[kellycan27]

It might be a clichè but the answer to that question is "No!". Many transsexuals never felt 'trapped' in the wrong body
or knew they were always meant to be a girl. And using such worn out statements can raise red flags with a therapist.

Personally I just felt like an "Alien" as a child that just didn't fit in anywhere, it took me the best part of 47 years to work
out I was transsexual, but then was to soon discover I was more than that - I was born intersex and had been surgically
altered. It really took me a long time to form a gender identity because the one they assigned to me was the wrong one.

The only essential ingredient to being a transsexual is a person must experience discomfort as a result
of a desire to be a member of the opposite sex, or if a person experiences impaired functioning or
distress as a result of that gender identification. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism

Can you please explain how one does come to the initial conclusion that "they" may in fact be a transsexual? In my case I was born genetically male, but i felt as though i should have been born a female. What do you suppose it was that led me to believe that I was a woman trapped in a mans body? Keep in mind that I haven't been on the planet 100 years and do not have the vast knowledge that you have on ALL things transsexual. Maybe I should have studied up more before seeing a therapist to determine why I actually felt this way. I feel kind of stupid now because I will admit that I did use that old tired expression.... I feel like I should have been born a woman, hence I was a woman essentially trapped in the body of a genetic male. What should I have told her that would not have raised a red flag? Maybe you can enlighten us as to what would have been the more appropriate way to describe how we felt that maybe isn't quite so "cliche". It's too late for me as that ship has already sailed, but I am sure there are a lot of us out there who don't know the proper way to describe their condition. Maybe I should have just sat there and let her guess why I was there that day? Keep in mind that most of us were not born nearly as female as you were, so we didn't have the intuition that you were lucky enough to be blessed with.

[Kathi Lake]

I certainly remember those prayers. I remember hoping to wake up a girl, and always being disappointed. Fast forward a lot of years (as I'm kind of an old fart), and you have me. Who and what am I? Not sure yet. Not sure if I ever will be sure. Yes, there is a component of not wanting to look too closely into that mirror. There are times where my fingers are wedged firmly in my ears, and me saying "Lalalalalala - I can't hear you!" as loudly as I can. There are times that I hurt - actually physically hurt - when I see a woman, and know that that will never be me.

On the flip side, I have a magnificent, wonderful, gloriously-fulfilling life. I have a loving wife and family. I have a job that is fun and challenging. I have a faith that makes much of what I do worthwhile to me. I have a comfortable life.

I also have a closet downstairs. This closet contains items that allow me to live my life - if only for a few hours - as I believe it may have been, had my circumstances been a little different by a chromosome or two. I love those times, and look forward to them with great pleasure.

Through the years I have learned that although I am genetically male, inside I feel a bit different than most males I know. Through learning, role-modeling, and trial and error, I believe that I can act as 'normal' as possible, and the world has no idea of who and what I am. That's a good thing as I have no idea either. :)

So, what am I? I prefer the term transgender. Why? Because it is a big umbrella, containing a wide spectrum of behaviors, and more importantly, eventual outcomes. Admitting that I was a transsexual would, I believe, limit me to a certain path, a certain outcome, a certain life. I don't want to be in that pigeonhole, so I choose to remain on what has been called The Middle Path. I like the middle path. Some may feel bad, thinking that it is not a valid path - thinking that you have to be as binary as the genders that the path moves between - male or female, transsexual or mere crossdresser. I don't think so. I enjoy weaving to the left and to the right. I enjoy the opportunity to be a lazy guy - not shaving, throwing on some sweats, etc. I also enjoy the opportunity to care about my appearance, to put on makeup and pretty clothes, to allow myself to break the shackles of the male mindset, . . . to feel.

So, what am I? I'm me - plain and simple (very plain, and very simple).

:)

Kathi

[Alice B]

Wow! Put my name on Kathi's post and you have described me and my life to a tee. Sure I often have desires to step a little more left and have real breasts, but that would be as far as it goes and it's not going to happen. It would tip the apple cart over and I'm happy where I am and at my age. At the same time I fully understand where Sara is and her wishes to fullfill her desires, yet knowing that she can't at this time in life. A tough spot that I'm glad I do not have to deal with.

[kellycan27]

I certainly remember those prayers. I remember hoping to wake up a girl, and always being disappointed. Fast forward a lot of years (as I'm kind of an old fart), and you have me. Who and what am I? Not sure yet. Not sure if I ever will be sure. Yes, there is a component of not wanting to look too closely into that mirror. There are times where my fingers are wedged firmly in my ears, and me saying "Lalalalalala - I can't hear you!" as loudly as I can. There are times that I hurt - actually physically hurt - when I see a woman, and know that that will never be me.

On the flip side, I have a magnificent, wonderful, gloriously-fulfilling life. I have a loving wife and family. I have a job that is fun and challenging. I have a faith that makes much of what I do worthwhile to me. I have a comfortable life.

I also have a closet downstairs. This closet contains items that allow me to live my life - if only for a few hours - as I believe it may have been, had my circumstances been a little different by a chromosome or two. I love those times, and look forward to them with great pleasure.

Through the years I have learned that although I am genetically male, inside I feel a bit different than most males I know. Through learning, role-modeling, and trial and error, I believe that I can act as 'normal' as possible, and the world has no idea of who and what I am. That's a good thing as I have no idea either. :)

So, what am I? I prefer the term transgender. Why? Because it is a big umbrella, containing a wide spectrum of behaviors, and more importantly, eventual outcomes. Admitting that I was a transsexual would, I believe, limit me to a certain path, a certain outcome, a certain life. I don't want to be in that pigeonhole, so I choose to remain on what has been called The Middle Path. I like the middle path. Some may feel bad, thinking that it is not a valid path - thinking that you have to be as binary as the genders that the path moves between - male or female, transsexual or mere crossdresser. I don't think so. I enjoy weaving to the left and to the right. I enjoy the opportunity to be a lazy guy - not shaving, throwing on some sweats, etc. I also enjoy the opportunity to care about my appearance, to put on makeup and pretty clothes, to allow myself to break the shackles of the male mindset, . . . to feel.

So, what am I? I'm me - plain and simple (very plain, and very simple).

:)

Kathi

Beautifully stated. You seem to have reached a balance that works great for you. Contrary to what some people may believe, there is no right or wrong to this thing and no set rules to live by as a transgendered person. Bravo! :hugs:

Kelly

[Aprilrain]

I enjoy the opportunity to be a lazy guy - not shaving, throwing on some sweats, etc.

I enjoy the opportunity to be a lazy girl! don't shave (my legs) wear sweats and SCREW make up!

I wish I could say I "knew" from day one that I should have been a girl but that is not my reality what i "knew" was that there was obviously something wrong with me for wanting to wear my sisters clothes! I had prayers too but they were more like god please make these thoughts and feelings go away! I'm well on my way and still struggle with self acceptance mostly because I would like an easy life and this shit ain't easy! the older I got the stronger the desire and the harder I tried to repress it. i knew when I was 30 and went looking for a "cure" that I was TS but it took another 5 years for the water to boil over. here I am.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

it's true April!! i like to not shave and wear sweats too.

i would never say a persons life choices are valid or invalid..
i wished and hoped i could somehow be a girl, i wondered why i was stuck as a guy..
..in the end no matter how hard i tried , nothing could feel "fulfilling" to me..being a non-person is no life at all..i had wonderful friends and family, was a powerful and well paid executive, had a loving and beloved wife, and it all made me feel so trapped and alone that i wanted to die
...if you can feel like a person and live as a man, then its hard for me to comprehend how someone can identify as a woman...

[Debglam]

But I'm finding myself inspired by a letter written to me by a friend. She writes...


Today, at therapy, I admitted that I am transsexual, and that I want to be a woman.

What a momentous day for her. There is such relief in her words, such joy, along with a tremendous resolve to stay on a middle path. Much like the middle path I find myself on.

Yes!!!!!! A tremendous day for our "middle path" sister!!!!! :) Thank you for posting this Sara!


When did I come to such a revelation? Was it at the age of my earliest memories?

For me, 2nd Grade. 7 or 8 years old. A number of things but I remember convincing my parents to let my hair grow long. It was the '70's so no big deal UNTIL they realized why I wanted my hair so long! Hauled off to the barber shop and learned to bury who I am deep inside.


I lived my life, like many of us did. I came of age, I dated, I graduated from college, I married my soulmate, we had children. All during a time when information about Gender Identity Disorder was largely clinical, or at least that is what I found. Surely I was the only one who felt this way and those who sought help were greeted with attempts to "cure". Electro-shock therapy was my favorite one to read about, or at least the one which reinforced my childhood decision to stay quiet. Yes, there was a bit of a media presence. Sensational portrayals on the likes of Phil Donahue and even Oprah Winfrey back in the day. My recollection was that these were not the most sensitive presentations.

Fast forward to the time within the last decade or so. The time of my own personal renaissance. Or better put, the time when I validated my place on the TG continuum. The time when I truly accepted myself.

How did you know this about me? :battingeyelashes: For me, there was a Sally Jessy Raphael where two "brides" got married. My awakening only came about one year ago.

I don't know what label to call myself but I'm using "transgender."


I certainly remember those prayers. I remember hoping to wake up a girl, and always being disappointed. Fast forward a lot of years (as I'm kind of an old fart), and you have me. Who and what am I? Not sure yet. Not sure if I ever will be sure. Yes, there is a component of not wanting to look too closely into that mirror. There are times where my fingers are wedged firmly in my ears, and me saying "Lalalalalala - I can't hear you!" as loudly as I can. There are times that I hurt - actually physically hurt - when I see a woman, and know that that will never be me.

On the flip side, I have a magnificent, wonderful, gloriously-fulfilling life. I have a loving wife and family. I have a job that is fun and challenging. I have a faith that makes much of what I do worthwhile to me. I have a comfortable life.

I also have a closet downstairs. This closet contains items that allow me to live my life - if only for a few hours - as I believe it may have been, had my circumstances been a little different by a chromosome or two. I love those times, and look forward to them with great pleasure.

Through the years I have learned that although I am genetically male, inside I feel a bit different than most males I know. Through learning, role-modeling, and trial and error, I believe that I can act as 'normal' as possible, and the world has no idea of who and what I am. That's a good thing as I have no idea either. :)

So, what am I? I prefer the term transgender. Why? Because it is a big umbrella, containing a wide spectrum of behaviors, and more importantly, eventual outcomes. Admitting that I was a transsexual would, I believe, limit me to a certain path, a certain outcome, a certain life. I don't want to be in that pigeonhole, so I choose to remain on what has been called The Middle Path. I like the middle path. Some may feel bad, thinking that it is not a valid path - thinking that you have to be as binary as the genders that the path moves between - male or female, transsexual or mere crossdresser. I don't think so. I enjoy weaving to the left and to the right. I enjoy the opportunity to be a lazy guy - not shaving, throwing on some sweats, etc. I also enjoy the opportunity to care about my appearance, to put on makeup and pretty clothes, to allow myself to break the shackles of the male mindset, . . . to feel.

So, what am I? I'm me - plain and simple (very plain, and very simple).

:)

Kathi

I love this Kathi! This is me! Thank you!!!!


Beautifully stated. You seem to have reached a balance that works great for you. Contrary to what some people may believe, there is no right or wrong to this thing and no set rules to live by as a transgendered person. Bravo! :hugs:

Kelly

Kelly,

You have done a great thing with this simple paragraph!

It cuts me like a razor when someone who should understand the turmoil ANYONE struggling with gender identity suffers questions my reality. You are an amazing woman.

A Big Smile and Hugs,
Debby

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I'm not questioning anybodies reality...but can we be honest about the reality?
The reality is that the only place this person is a woman is in her head, at her therapy sessions, and on internet message forums..everywhere else she is a man..

If being a woman in your head is all that matters, than what are we all doing here? (other than being chat room women)

..its not reasonable to expect people to accept that someone is a woman when they by choice live as a man....
and it seems reasonable to wonder whether a person that can be happy as a guy is a woman..

I lived as a middle pather but never really called it that or heard that term until this message board.....i was a weekend woman..., over time it became unbearable..

It's not unreasonable to talk about this openly...the most common thing a mid-late life transsexual says is that they regret not transitioning sooner (2nd is where is my orgasm..hehe)

if it turns out that its a matter of degree, then frankly middle path people have an easier road to a great quality of life than people that transition later in life, keeping jobs, staying in your family etc are quite attractive..

[Sara Jessica]

I certainly remember those prayers. I remember hoping to wake up a girl, and always being disappointed.

I think disappointment was something felt my many of us when we were young, whether after bedtime prayers, daydreaming or even Christmas wishes for gifts that matched the way we felt inside.


On the flip side, I have a magnificent, wonderful, gloriously-fulfilling life. I have a loving wife and family. I have a job that is fun and challenging. I have a faith that makes much of what I do worthwhile to me. I have a comfortable life.

Several sentences which cut to the heart of what I'm writing about. Perfectly said Kathi.


So, what am I? I prefer the term transgender. Why? Because it is a big umbrella, containing a wide spectrum of behaviors, and more importantly, eventual outcomes. Admitting that I was a transsexual would, I believe, limit me to a certain path, a certain outcome, a certain life. I don't want to be in that pigeonhole, so I choose to remain on what has been called The Middle Path. I like the middle path. Some may feel bad, thinking that it is not a valid path - thinking that you have to be as binary as the genders that the path moves between - male or female, transsexual or mere crossdresser. I don't think so. I enjoy weaving to the left and to the right. I enjoy the opportunity to be a lazy guy - not shaving, throwing on some sweats, etc. I also enjoy the opportunity to care about my appearance, to put on makeup and pretty clothes, to allow myself to break the shackles of the male mindset, . . . to feel.

I envy where you are with this whole thing. If you don't need to identify yourself as being TS, then why go there? As you move along the continuum, you have chosen to stop at the middle path. Me? I blew right by it and find myself having to come back to that middle ground. You have peace, I have torture, so to speak. But at the end of the day I have many of the same things you talk about in my day to day life. Balance is more of a struggle for me than it seems to be for you but we do share a common goal. Achieving that balance in the face of TG issues is as good as it gets for those of us on this similar path.


I wish I could say I "knew" from day one that I should have been a girl but that is not my reality what i "knew" was that there was obviously something wrong with me for wanting to wear my sisters clothes! I had prayers too but they were more like god please make these thoughts and feelings go away! I'm well on my way and still struggle with self acceptance mostly because I would like an easy life and this shit ain't easy! the older I got the stronger the desire and the harder I tried to repress it. i knew when I was 30 and went looking for a "cure" that I was TS but it took another 5 years for the water to boil over. here I am.

April, we all have different stories as to how our self-awareness came into being. I like your analogy about water boiling over. Like you, mine boiled over several years ago but I guess you could say that I am making a concerted effort to turn down the heat.


i would never say a persons life choices are valid or invalid..
i wished and hoped i could somehow be a girl, i wondered why i was stuck as a guy..
..in the end no matter how hard i tried , nothing could feel "fulfilling" to me..being a non-person is no life at all..i had wonderful friends and family, was a powerful and well paid executive, had a loving and beloved wife, and it all made me feel so trapped and alone that i wanted to die
...if you can feel like a person and live as a man, then its hard for me to comprehend how someone can identify as a woman...

Kaitlyn, I have always appreciated, and continue to appreciate, how you see other points of view. Thank you.

The sentences you write above could apply to me as well. I guess at this time, the part of me that would "want to die" has to do with the pain I cause my wife, knowing that this balance thing doesn't get any easier as my children get older. Tell them you might say, that isn't an option that is currently on the table. My wife is wonderful but like many women, at the end of the day my issues cause her to feel shame. Shame as in our standing in the community should I be "found out", shame in that she chooses not to talk to ANYONE about this. Where I have many to pour out my emotions to, she has no one. Shame, I'm sure, in worrying about what effect this whole thing could have on our children.

Remember, I will never fault her for feeling this way.

I often circle back around to a quote I've heard that was attributed to Dr. Phil (yes, I know, that pantheon of wisdom he is). I believe this was along the lines that TG isn't so conducive to marriage. And lately, I've been feeling as if he is right. So even though I don't consider myself one to have ever seriously contemplated taking my own life, I do think at times that what is better for my children, a father who is no longer here or a father who is transitioning to female? Honestly, I think the former would be easier for them, or such is my mindset of late. How can someone who absolutely loves life, who has beat cancer, have such dark thoughts at times? I often ask myself this very question but it serves to remind us that this is powerful stuff we're dealing with.

Your last sentence though really gets to me. I guess I'd put it this way. We all have our own world view as to our self-awareness of our TG issues and what we have chosen to do about it. I sense your empathy, I know you "get it", but at the same time, perhaps that statement has a lot to do with the reason why so many of the Muggles have such a hard time wrapping their head around gender issues. For me to state that I am resolved to hold onto the things you felt you had no choice but to let go is in direct conflict with your world view, and it makes perfect sense. I am currently in a place where you once were. Maybe you resolved at one point to try to balance things, perhaps your water boiled over to the point where you made the decisions that led to where you are today. Regardless, I may be able to stay this course or I may follow in a similar path as you have traveled. At the end of the day, either decision has zero effect in how I identify, as female.


For me, 2nd Grade. 7 or 8 years old. A number of things but I remember convincing my parents to let my hair grow long. It was the '70's so no big deal UNTIL they realized why I wanted my hair so long! Hauled off to the barber shop and learned to bury who I am deep inside.

Yet another story about fateful events which lead a child to bury such things.


Beautifully stated. You seem to have reached a balance that works great for you. Contrary to what some people may believe, there is no right or wrong to this thing and no set rules to live by as a transgendered person. Bravo! :hugs:

Kelly

Kelly, thank you for all you have said above, and for being who you are. I do feel like there are many who preach right and wrong in how to deal with our issues, things that we share so much in common but lead to such dissent when it comes to choices made as to how to deal with them. I truly feel empowered by support such as what you and several others have offered. Again, thank you.

_______________________________

Which kind of brings things back to where I left off. Yes, I am making a case in support of a middle path. I am presenting points to validate it and many of the replies are right in line. There are many of us out there. Perhaps part of this is a function of the times we came of age in. Given the availability of good information these days, I would think our numbers would dwindle in that many would make decisions earlier in life to transition. Regardless, this is who we are and our numbers are strong.

CD'ing is something people do. It is an activity that can also be a noun to identify what a person might be. They are a carpenter, they are a librarian, they are a crossdresser.

Going back to those early childhood memories so many of us share, I'm pretty certain that the first thing running through our minds wasn't "hey, I'm a transsexual." Instead, it was "I'm a girl" which later becomes "I'm a woman". It is what was in our hearts at such a young age which lingers to this day because it is who we are. It is integral to our being. Short of conscious repression, she manifests herself in our personality. She is our soul and demands to express herself in the face of other choices made in life. While some of these choices may not be congruent with her desire to be front and center (ie - fathering children), she is still thrilled and blessed to have her own children. Maybe "his" career path leads to a "powerful executive" position but at the same time, perhaps her presence in his personality contributed to his success.

There is too much infighting about who has a right to take ownership of certain terms. At the end of the day, no matter how we got there, aren't we all in the same boat, that we identify as women? Decisions made as to how far we are willing to go to do something about it, or whether we feel compelled to take a certain road, do not change the underlying fact, that we are women.

As for my friend, I see her for who she is, for what she is...a woman. Like many of us, I'm sure that all things being equal, she would take those steps to bring her body and daily life in line with her soul but she has made a decision and as such, I welcome her with open arms to share this middle path. I wish her peace as she tries to balance family, friends & career while her own feminine renaissance takes place. I wish her the strength to be able to carry on through the ups & downs that are sure to follow. This is the same peace & strength I wish upon all of us who travel in life's unusual gender pathways, no matter where we feel we must pitch our tent.

[Sara Jessica]

I'm not questioning anybodies reality...but can we be honest about the reality?
The reality is that the only place this person is a woman is in her head, at her therapy sessions, and on internet message forums..everywhere else she is a man..

You left out her heart. That may be the best she is able to do but it ranks up there as among the most important.

Another cliche, "gender is not what is between your legs, it's what's between the ears."

I guess what's seems to be getting lost here is that I'm not talking so much about the end-product, even though a middle path existence seems like that very thing. I'm talking more about the roots of our being, what led us to arrive at whatever end-product we choose (or that chooses us).


If being a woman in your head is all that matters, than what are we all doing here? (other than being chat room women)

No one is saying this is all that matters. We all bring something to the table when it comes to our gender experiences. We are all in different places as well when it comes to what we are willing and able to do about it. It doesn't change the underlying fact that we have in common, that we identify as being female.


..its not reasonable to expect people to accept that someone is a woman when they by choice live as a man....

By choice I am living the life I built so as not to completely shatter the lives of my wife and children, my parents and other family...and potentially my own life which is rich with the aforementioned family but also friends and career. If that means continuing to present as a male, then so be it. That is the decision of the person on the middle path. But again, it doesn't change in the least bit what brought us here in the first place, our soul is female.


and it seems reasonable to wonder whether a person that can be happy as a guy is a woman..

I'll roll with Kathi's analogy on this one. My happiness in this life is not defined by gender. I'm being "me". Joy in simple pleasures such as watching my girls play together when they don't know I'm there. Pride in seeing my son achieve things in athletics that honestly I had no idea he had in him...and neither did he. Love of my wife for all of the unselfish things she does in taking care of our household and the endless hours she spends volunteering for the schools.

These are but a few of the things that I choose not to risk by going down transition road.

Going back to the school volunteer thing, I find myself deeply distressed by "normal" that I see, particularly when at school events. Distressed in that I long to feel such normalcy, yet know that while I can put up a facade, I never will. Yet it's also the knowledge that even the facade is better than not being there. Better than not seeing my children in their element. Better than not witnessing my wife's endless energy in favor of our children and the community.

Better for me.

I will not lie, the joy I feel comes from so many simple pleasures. Of course my preference would be to experience those while living and presenting as who I am but in the alternative, I'll take such pleasures as filtered through the essence in my heart.


I lived as a middle pather but never really called it that or heard that term until this message board.....i was a weekend woman..., over time it became unbearable..

It's a term that I first heard several years ago, whether first from a friend of mine or from another message board site, it doesn't matter. What the terms does well is describe a valid place in our community.

And admittedly, particularly on this site, it can be a tough place to be. I've said before, I tend to take things way too seriously for many on the CD'ers side and at the same time, people in my boat are deemed as not being serious enough by many who have transitioned or are in the process of doing so. My point in this thread has had more to do with what we have in common rather than debating who is more trans than the next, or who has the right to certain words of description. Why bother with all that? At the essence of this whole thing we have more in common than not. It's that commonalty that leads us to participate here.


if it turns out that its a matter of degree, then frankly middle path people have an easier road to a great quality of life than people that transition later in life, keeping jobs, staying in your family etc are quite attractive..

It's not a contest as to who has it easier or more difficult. If taking the perceived easier path is the ticket to revocation of the TS and/or woman card I have taken ownership of, then so be it. But as has been told to me by a natal female who knows me well, "There is nothing more inherently feminine than thinking of others first when making such decisions".

With all of the positives I have described in taking the perceived easier path, those merely serve to distract me from a torment that I could never wish upon my worst enemy. The degree of this distraction varies but the fact remains, no one is saying that choosing a middle path is an end-all decision that will lead to ultimate happiness, allowing us to have our cake and eat it too. This has never been part of the decision making process. It is an attempt at balance, something I may or may not be able to sustain.

If I fail, then am I a woman? If I succeed, I am not?

I see these statements as being contrary to what is in my heart.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I hear you Sara.

When you write..."I do think at times that what is better for my children, a father who is no longer here or a father who is transitioning to female? Honestly, I think the former would be easier for them, or such is my mindset of late. How can someone who absolutely loves life, who has beat cancer, have such dark thoughts at times? I often ask myself this very question but it serves to remind us that this is powerful stuff we're dealing with........................By choice I am living the life I built so as not to completely shatter the lives of my wife and children, my parents and other family..."

I have been there..It sucks...at one point my ex suggested i was better off dead...
but today, my kids get straight A's, we are great together, and our relationship could not be more normal...they are teenagers too, and they are wonderful kids...
my exwife is my best friend, and we both realize our marriage was no marriage at all, but we both agree that we had a great time together...life goes on..i can still watch my kids play, i can see my wife (i still think of her that way) smile, and i hope to see my grandkids play too. I didn't shatter anybodies life.

when you write "My point in this thread has had more to do with what we have in common rather than debating who is more trans than the next, or who has the right to certain words of description. Why bother with all that? At the essence of this whole thing we have more in common than not. It's that commonalty that leads us to participate here. "

is that really your point? i responded to your comments......you brought it up ..as an assertion no less...


++++++
In the end, i think your point is fair that you are not focused on the end result.

to me the end result is all that matters...
i think that's the difference we are discussing.

my heart goes out to you ..i don't like to be a party pooper...when all is said, it doesn't matter what i think..if you are looking for affirmation that you are indeed a woman, you have it...but i don't think it gets you very much..

[Aprilrain]

But as has been told to me by a natal female who knows me well, "There is nothing more inherently feminine than thinking of others first when making such decisions".


AHHH no truer words were spoken! I chose this a difficult life as a trans woman over transferring my insurmountable heartache and misery to my loved ones by killing myself but that's just me.

[Kathi Lake]

Can I change your quote a bit?
I'm not questioning anybodies reality...but can we be honest about the reality?Let's change it to, "I'm not questioning anybodies reality . . . but can I question your reality? How can you people possibly think the way you do?"

Why do you think we're not being honest with ourselves? Because you thought as we once did, couldn't bear it, and therefore we will get to that point as well eventually? Since you couldn't be happy being in between, that we can't either? Where is the room for individuality in that?


..its not reasonable to expect people to accept that someone is a woman when they by choice live as a man....
and it seems reasonable to wonder whether a person that can be happy as a guy is a woman..So, unless we're a tormented, conflicted, suicidal mess, we're not suffering enough to truly be women? Ummmmmmmmm . . .


if it turns out that its a matter of degree, then frankly middle path people have an easier road to a great quality of life than people that transition later in life, keeping jobs, staying in your family etc are quite attractive..Yeah. I kinda like it. :)

Kathi

[*Vanessa*]

For now I have to wiggle and squirm for some reason only to find I am me. Now I need to label that me, to find how to be that me. The me I have been all my life. The me who wished for dollies and got Teddies in pajamas instead.

It is only after three decades of living how I thought 'me' should to keep all the balls in the air that life came crashing down. The crest of the disaster was nothing I did in the moment, yet the result of how I have changed my life. I accept that person’s decision. I don't like it, in fact I have great disdain towards that person. That person destroyed any means I had to transition or live from day-to-day. If I didn't move far away by now I am sure I would be in a place where very few would ever like to be. This is no excuse, yet there are some that will undoubtedly use it as a step to shout their own agenda. To them I say "so be it and whatever but, it damn well better be loud".

I lived my life as I thought best without title and now I know that title is transgender and love the term. I can float between genders in an instant or take my time experiencing the difference moment to moment. This life, this body is no less than any other on this planet. I have a right to be here and I celebrate both right and life of me.

just my thoughts

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Kathi, Pls, don't twist what i said to suit you...

If you say you are a woman then you are a woman. So good for you !!
What do you want from me? a pat on the back? a hug? what exactly does that get you?

why rephrase my question rather than answer it? the question was clear..why ignore my good nature..i'm clearly supportive of people's choices..
i said what i said....i was clear about it...what about it did you not understand? did you choose to twist what i said?

you take my question from an unemotional non judgement point of view..."how can you expect another person to view you a woman when you live as a man??"
and once again you ignore an answer and ask your own questions...apparently feeling judged by the question

plus you turn it into a cruel statement..."so unless we're a tormented.......mess.." that shows how little you know about how being transsexual impacts people...

[Sara Jessica]

Kaitlyn, I'll repeat. I know you get where I'm coming from, where we're coming from. You tried this path. It didn't work for you, but at least it sounds as if you've truly been in such a similar place with similar life circumstances which I appreciate. But wrapped within the emotion of Kathi's response are some really good points. Something that cuts to the chase of what I'm trying to convey.

We are all in the same boat.

At the heart of our condition is that we feel as if we're women. For some of us it has been a reality for our entire recollection. Others may have awakened a bit later in life for whatever reason but the point is, this is ingrained in us, in all of us. Continuing with the analogy, for some of us, that ship might sail to the port of transition where one might choose to embark to shore and partake in any combination of hormonal therapy, breast enhancement, SRS, FFS, etc. Others might feel just as much of a woman inside but may not have the means to go to that port, whether financial or health. And others yet, such as myself, may simply make a choice to go to a different port where yes, things might be easier in that my family is on the dock. God willing that I am able to stay this course, I can lean on them for support when I'm down and revel in the happiness that they bring me. This port ensures that I keep my career which enables me to fulfill a necessity, to provide for my family. This has been an important consideration which has gone unsaid, the responsibility for those we have brought into this world.

But it's statements such as these...


You are a woman in your head!! Good for you !! what do you want from me? a pat on the back?


...when all is said, it doesn't matter what i think..if you are looking for affirmation that you are indeed a woman, you have it...but i don't think it gets you very much..

...they kind of trivialize the whole thing.

You asked the question, "how can you expect another person to view you a woman when you live as a man?" I can easily answer that. I don't. It would be ludicrous for me to have such an expectation of others in my day to day life. Heck, even my wife is well aware of my essence and it would cause her great pain to somehow view me as a woman. Even when doing whatever I do in public, I don't expect to be viewed as a woman. I hope I am but I don't dwell on it. And when I am read for being male underneath it all, the person has zero clue as to where I reside along the TG continuum. I could be a crossdresser, I could be a fully transitioned female, or anywhere in between. But the common denominator here is that in their view, I'm likely trans-something. And that is also the case for x% of those who transition who have features that no amount of $$$ & surgery can eliminate the chance that they'd be read as trans, or worse, as a man.

Does any of this perception change what is in any of our hearts? Is the fully transitioned individual who like all of us plays the cards genetics dealt her any less of a woman because she hasn't a prayer of being viewed as a female by society? Of course not, that'd be playing the passing privilege card. So why is it any different for those of us who choose a middle path? Is it because the other woman, going back to Kathi's words, felt the suffering/torment/conflict to make such fateful decisions on how to live her life?

I've said it before, I suffer with this gender thing. I feel torment, often by the minute or hour. I am constantly conflicted. Yet my decision is to try to manage this and not go to the port of transition.

And Kaitlyn, your situation is wonderful. The way you describe that everything you might have feared didn't come to fruition. That your children still love and respect you. That your ex-wife remains a best friend. That you didn't shatter anyone's life. But as you are surely aware, your situation is quite unique. My situation could end up being exactly the same as yours should I go ever go there. But the road to transition is more often than not littered with tales that ring the opposite of yours. Tales of utter destruction of relationships, of absolute financial ruin. Some feel compelled to go down the road of unknown when it comes to these things in spite of the risks. Others take what might be perceived as an easier path, one of more certainty on so many fronts. Despite the root of our respective feelings being the same, one fork in the road buys you the woman card while the other gives you something else. That's where things just don't make sense.

[Aprilrain]

Some feel compelled to go down the road of unknown when it comes to these things in spite of the risks. Others take what might be perceived as an easier path, one of more certainty on so many fronts.

I congratulate you for finding a road that suits you and that you feel the most contentment on however you are fooling yourself if you think it offers you more certainty, more security. Leaving the TG question aside for the moment consider our current economic state, consider the possibility of a tragic accident or fatal illness at any moment, now consider plodding along on your chosen path for another 10 years only to find you just can't do it anymore. Now what?
I'm not here to say anyone is right or wrong for choosing this or that but please don't fool your self into a decision ANY decision by thinking its "safer" safer than what? Last time I checked life didn't come with guarantee's.

My friends father worked hard all his life. As he neared retirement he planned for the many things he was going to do with his free time and retirment money. He literally had a stroke at his retirement party at work! It didn't kill him but he was pretty much a vegetable after that and his family had to care for him. at the time my friend was plugging away at a dead end but "secure" job with a "good" company. He resolved to not waist another minute of his life. He moved to the mountains and learned to snowboard he became an instructor. He then learned to paraglide and also started teaching that! I met him when he was 40 he died 5 years later in a paragliding accident. We were sad because he was a great guy, very generous, enthusiastic and caring but we all knew, his wife included, that he died doing what he loved. He could have stayed in that big city and kept that "good" job gained 50 lbs and he'd still be alive, probably. But I never would have known him. I would not have had the experience of meeting another soul on this journey called life who defied conventional wisdom and took a chance. His life decisions definitely killed him at a young age but the man I knew was someone who had LIVED life. How many people make it to old age never knowing what they were really capable of?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

thnx sara..i teared up at your post..i know how hard it is.

I truly appreciate you having this conversation..i think lots of people lurk and read this stuff and its important to be open and honest..it takes courage to lay it all out for others to see

i have no question that you are a woman...i can't disagree with anything you've said...
i think if you can muddle through as you are , that's a great solution to a terrible problem.....i guess being a tormented conflicted suicidal mess is not the badge of honor in the tranny hierarchy i thought it was...

fwiw i read with great interest this statement

"But it's statements such as these...

Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
You are a woman in your head!! Good for you !! what do you want from me? a pat on the back?
Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
...when all is said, it doesn't matter what i think..if you are looking for affirmation that you are indeed a woman, you have it...but i don't think it gets you very much..
...they kind of trivialize the whole thing."



2 things i'd like to add..

1.) i hear you on this...i can see how it seems i'm saying that the whole idea of being only a woman in your head or heart as you call it is trivial..apologies if it came out that way to you..i realize i'm making a politically incorrect statement but i have just seen it so many times...i am saying that if you are ts you will ultimately find little or no reward in knowing yourself as a woman..in my therapy group they had to separate the post ops and full timers because the others couldn't stand it anymore...they started looking at therapy as a way to feel worse about themselves...i can see how it may seem i'm saying something unsupportive, but in my mind its the opposite...i'm speaking from experience and honesty..
and its clear to me you are in a brutally honest and well thought out state of mind..your quality of life needs to be the best for you and yours..

2.) i also think people miss out on the idea to someone like me or april or others that read a post where someone says "i'm a woman!!!" and then goes to make money in their male life, enjoy their male sex, hug their wife and kids and actually be happy about it is trivializing what we go through.. the opposite of saying "i have to support my family" is "you didn't support your family"..or at least it feels that way...this is especially difficult for me when someone says "i am putting my kids first"..which says that i didnt
so perhaps in my response i had more emotion than i would like to admit..i hope that's clear though...it goes both ways i guess...think about how a person that lost their job, family, friends and even their health to transition looks at it when someone says I'm a woman and then just shuts off the computer and goes happily back to male life...

:hugs:

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Yes, there was a bit of a media presence. Sensational portrayals on the likes of Phil Donahue and even Oprah Winfrey back in the day. My recollection was that these were not the most sensitive presentations.

Hmm, I remember Oprah and Phil's shows on transfolks being reasonably sensitive, much better than anyone elses at the time, though perhaps not up to the level of Oprah's shows with Jenny Boylan.


I acknowledged that yes, I am a transsexual.

About time.


I acknowledged that yes, I am a woman.

Here's where it gets tricky. Now me personally, I'm pretty free with considering folks women who identify as women...but...there are others who define TS, mostly by the things we do. So if you're like me, and not on mones, haven't done hair removal yet, and aren't full time...well you're not a real TS. Which is one reason I rarely post here. Now some of that is defensiveness because TS's are at the top of the TRanny heap status wise.within the community. Young passable transitioners on top, fetish CD's on the bottom we all know the drill. Because of that, there have been at times, CD's who would use language in such a way as to be perceived as TS even when they had no real desire to transition. Thus leading to boundary issues and ranting on the interwebs.

But as I said, I respect self identifcation, so if you say you're a transwoman, you are. However..for myself...I am very careful with the word "woman" You won't find me referring to myself as a "transwoman" not yet anyway, or as a "woman"...though I do consider myself a "femme" but that's another story.


More of an adjective rather than a noun.

IMHO it's both.




Personally I just felt like an "Alien" as a child that just didn't fit in anywhere, it took me the best part of 47 years to work
out I was transsexual,

I used the term "feeling apart from the warp and weft of the woven world", feeling like an outsider and not fitting in.


but then was to soon discover I was more than that - I was born intersex and had been surgically
altered.

I've been "touched" by intersex, though I don't identify as "intersexed", for me all it did was make urination...interesting...and led to other things.


The only essential ingredient to being a transsexual is a person must experience discomfort as a result
of a desire to be a member of the opposite sex, or if a person experiences impaired functioning or
distress as a result of that gender identification.

I agree.


you have me. Who and what am I? Not sure yet. Not sure if I ever will be sure. Yes, there is a component of not wanting to look too closely into that mirror. There are times where my fingers are wedged firmly in my ears, and me saying "Lalalalalala - I can't hear you!" as loudly as I can.

That, I think, is your weakness, if I may play tough love Veronica here. You really do need to talk things over some more, and actually "use the words" I'm getting the impression that your wife doesn't really know about all the stuff "Kathi" does.


There are times that I hurt - actually physically hurt - when I see a woman, and know that that will never be me.

Never say never, though I do know how you feel.


I believe that I can act as 'normal' as possible, and the world has no idea of who and what I am. That's a good thing as I have no idea either. :)

Ahem, do I need to bring up the Gorgeous Gossip Patrol, or the room moms, or the admin, not even taking into account your SA/MA friends at Ulta/WHBMor the realtor, or the bank ladies.


Some may feel bad, thinking that it is not a valid path - thinking that you have to be as binary as the genders that the path moves between - male or female, transsexual or mere crossdresser.

No, it makes me feel sad because in some ways it's "settling for less" rather than trying to "have it all" Though I admit that may not be a realistic way of seeing it. Let's put it this way, if you were single, and know what you do now...how fast would you be on mones.




The reality is that the only place this person is a woman is in her head, at her therapy sessions, and on internet message forums..everywhere else she is a man..

If being a woman in your head is all that matters, than what are we all doing here? (other than being chat room women)

Well, IMHO the spirit does matter, to a certain extent. I think more inclusive is better than less, but that is just me.


..its not reasonable to expect people to accept that someone is a woman when they by choice live as a man....

Ahh, but is it a choice they really wanted to take, or do they lack options and have only that choice. would they make a different choice if things were different? Would they rather make the other choice, but are afraid of hurring those they love? The "why" of the choice matters.

For example, I have my hormone letter...but I'm not on them....why? There are other things that need to come first. I wish it wasn't the case, and if things were different I could speed up the timetable...but my reality is what it is.


and it seems reasonable to wonder whether a person that can be happy as a guy is a woman..

There are degrees of happiness, and the question that we should perhaps be thinking, is "would they be even happier as a woman."


I lived as a middle pather but never really called it that or heard that term until this message board

It is commonly used elsewhere.


It's not unreasonable to talk about this openly...the most common thing a mid-late life transsexual says is that they regret not transitioning sooner

Right, which is why I'm saying the things I'm saying...and have said before, to Kathi and Sara Jessica.


if it turns out that its a matter of degree, then frankly middle path people have an easier road to a great quality of life than people that transition later in life, keeping jobs, staying in your family etc are quite attractive..

I wouldn't say easier, because they still have the trans anguish. They aren't "whole" like post everything TS's can be. And yes, they can get lots of condescension from those who consider themselves "Real TS"...I've seen it elsewhere.


knowing that this balance thing doesn't get any easier as my children get older. Tell them you might say, that isn't an option that is currently on the table.

It needs to be on the table...in fact, IMHO they should have been told a loooong time ago.


My wife is wonderful but like many women, at the end of the day my issues cause her to feel shame. Shame as in our standing in the community should I be "found out", shame in that she chooses not to talk to ANYONE about this.

Now that attitude I consider unreasonable. There is no shame in this thing in and of itself, there is only shame because of how society sees it. This thing is what it is. And frankly honesty, openness and diversity are more important than standing...even in the OC. She NEEDS to talk to someone, read things. heck take her to a support group meeting, encourage her to join "the other place". But communication between herself and others...and between you and her is important. Because like Kathi's wife, I suspect that the don't ask don't tell behavior means that she has little idea of the things you do or the depth of your feelings on the matters involved.


Remember, I will never fault her for feeling this way.

You don't have to be the martyr. I think you SHOULD fault her, to a certain extent. Turning a blind eye to this and going "la la la " isn't going to make it go away, is it? Honesty and openess are better!


And lately, I've been feeling as if he is right.

Well he's not "exactly" right. But I do think that transfolk should deal with their issues BEFORE they get in relationships. And that if they're not absolutely certain of their trans-status, they should avoid marriage. But then again, I'm a 44 year old virgin who has never been on a date, so what do I know.



So even though I don't consider myself one to have ever seriously contemplated taking my own life, I do think at times that what is better for my children, a father who is no longer here or a father who is transitioning to female? Honestly, I think the former would be easier for them, or such is my mindset of late.

What? WHAAAT? How can you say that? living is better than dead. Living happy transfolk better than dead transfolk. This "thing of ours" can be dealt with, it can be understood, even if you transitioned, you'd still be a parent to your kids....if you were dead...that wouldn't be the case.


Yes, I am making a case in support of a middle path.

I don't consider it sustainable long term, either sooner or later, whether a few years or at retirement.


I would think our numbers would dwindle in that many would make decisions earlier in life to transition.

I think they are dwindling. I think there will be fewer folks like us in the future.




Good point.

[quote]There is too much infighting about who has a right to take ownership of certain terms.

I agree, to a certain extent.


You left out her heart. That may be the best she is able to do but it ranks up there as among the most important.

Another cliche, "gender is not what is between your legs, it's what's between the ears."

Quoting Kate Bornstein?


I've said before, I tend to take things way too seriously for many on the CD'ers side and at the same time, people in my boat are deemed as not being serious enough by many who have transitioned or are in the process of doing so.

Indeed, I've seen it.


But as has been told to me by a natal female who knows me well, "There is nothing more inherently feminine than thinking of others first when making such decisions".

Yes, some say that....but that doesn't mean women have to martyr themselves and forsake their own happiness to serve others. Because their own happiness is important too.


Why do you think we're not being honest with ourselves? Because you thought as we once did, couldn't bear it, and therefore we will get to that point as well eventually? Since you couldn't be happy being in between, that we can't either? Where is the room for individuality in that?

kaitlyn has a point...because from what I've seen, the middle path is not sustainable long term. Eventually something "breaks" and they decide to forsake it. Now that doesn't mean you won't make it work...but...will you be "truly" happy? Will you be "fully fulfilled" or just saying, "well...I just have to setting for this because the other thing isn't attainable, so I'm closing of that branch of the decision tree." Personally I cut off branches from my decision tree that I shouldn't have.



This port ensures that I keep my career which enables me to fulfill a necessity, to provide for my family.

Ahh, but might not that "other port" do so as well? Things have changed for the better in regards to that other port in such matters.


I've said it before, I suffer with this gender thing. I feel torment, often by the minute or hour. I am constantly conflicted. Yet my decision is to try to manage this and not go to the port of transition.

Well, I think you should more closely examine that port and see if you could make it work for you...but I am your cheerleader after all.


I'm not here to say anyone is right or wrong for choosing this or that but please don't fool your self into a decision ANY decision by thinking its "safer" safer than what? Last time I checked life didn't come with guarantee's.

Good point.

Veronica

[Anne2345]

But I'm finding myself inspired by a letter written to me by a friend. She writes...


Today, at therapy, I admitted that I am transsexual, and that I want to be a woman.

What a momentous day for her. There is such relief in her words, such joy, along with a tremendous resolve to stay on a middle path.

It was a momentous day. It was also unequivocally necessary, and very much long overdue. A momentous, life-changing moment, in the raw, emotional extreme. The simple, blessed, merciful relief I now feel and am currently experiencing as a result of finally breaking through a lifetime of denial, fear, repression, and hiding, and honestly admitting to myself what I have always known but refused to acknowledge, is quite palpable, tangible, and striking in its ameliorable and therapeutic potency. For the first time in a long time, I can breathe again. I can actually breathe again. I am transsexual. This is who and what I am. Thank you for your kind, understanding, and knowing words throughout the entirety of this thread. And I am very much pleased and proud to be your friend, as I am everyone here . . . . :)

[Dawn cd]

I haven't been taking part in this conversation, Sara. I just want you to know that I honor your reality, both the joy and pain that it brings. I truly believe that your middle way is not wishy-washy. It is heroic.

[Sara Jessica]

I congratulate you for finding a road that suits you and that you feel the most contentment on however you are fooling yourself if you think it offers you more certainty, more security. Leaving the TG question aside for the moment consider our current economic state, consider the possibility of a tragic accident or fatal illness at any moment, now consider plodding along on your chosen path for another 10 years only to find you just can't do it anymore. Now what?
I'm not here to say anyone is right or wrong for choosing this or that but please don't fool your self into a decision ANY decision by thinking its "safer" safer than what? Last time I checked life didn't come with guarantee's.

There's a difference between making decisions, deciding which fork in the road to take, and fate. Tragedy = fate, you cannot decide those things away unless a decision of happenstance puts you in the pathway of an oncoming bus.

Decisions however, when made with forethought, are really a measure of risk versus reward. I have always taken a safer path, it's in my nature. From a career standpoint, I found myself with two job offers out of college, one commission only/no benefits & the other salary + benefits. Guess which one I took. It has led to me being able to do pretty well for my family but it will never have the "sky's the limit" potential of the other choice. Hence the decision made was a safer one.

That said, there is little to argue that the middle path is the safer one for a person such as myself. And in all fairness, an easier one as Kaitlyn pointed out, provided the trans issues can be concurrently managed.


thnx sara..i teared up at your post..i know how hard it is.

I truly appreciate you having this conversation..i think lots of people lurk and read this stuff and its important to be open and honest..it takes courage to lay it all out for others to see

I'm so glad you see it that way Kaitlyn. There are a number of reasons I put this whole thing out there and I really enjoy where the conversation has gone so far.


i have no question that you are a woman...i can't disagree with anything you've said...


Here's where it gets tricky. Now me personally, I'm pretty free with considering folks women who identify as women...but...there are others who define TS, mostly by the things we do. But as I said, I respect self identifcation, so if you say you're a transwoman, you are. However..for myself...I am very careful with the word "woman" You won't find me referring to myself as a "transwoman" not yet anyway, or as a "woman"...though I do consider myself a "femme" but that's another story...

Alright, let's bring the "woman" thing full circle. As I think I've made clear as the conversation has progressed, I am not running around in my daily life expecting to be seen as a woman. I brought this into the discussion for several reasons.


We consciously self-identify from our earliest "enlightenment" as being a girl or a woman.
The term when used by someone like myself is more metaphorical, even more spiritual, than literal.


Again, we didn't grow up to be transsexual. It describes our condition. It also tells the educated reader the steps we might take to bring body into harmony with the mind.


...there are others who define TS, mostly by the things we do. So if you're like me, and not on mones, haven't done hair removal yet, and aren't full time...well you're not a real TS. Which is one reason I rarely post here. Now some of that is defensiveness because TS's are at the top of the TRanny heap status wise.within the community. Young passable transitioners on top, fetish CD's on the bottom we all know the drill. Because of that, there have been at times, CD's who would use language in such a way as to be perceived as TS even when they had no real desire to transition. Thus leading to boundary issues and ranting on the interwebs.

This is one of the main reasons I brought "woman" into the fold, to try to make a case to flatten out that hierarchy you describe, the one we all see just about anywhere we travel in TG spaces when online, and even sometimes in person.

There is a broad similarity in all of us who identify towards the TS side of things, just as there can be similarities to be had in other places on the TG continuum. Our differences then unfold as individual decisions are made. I'm trying to make a case that despite vastly different outcomes, different end-products, we still retain that similarity at the core of our respective beings.

When all is said and done, we can oversimplify and say we are simply human. But to be more descriptive, this is where we take ownership of various terms. I choose the one which best describes my heart, even if only for personal use. And friends I have in similar boats, I consider them friends first, female friends rather than trans-friends.


i think if you can muddle through as you are , that's a great solution to a terrible problem.....i guess being a tormented conflicted suicidal mess is not the badge of honor in the tranny hierarchy i thought it was...

I can just hug you Kaitlyn for saying this.

This thing of ours, it is what it is. We all cope with it as best we can. We play the cards that are dealt to us, both from a physical and emotional standpoint.

None of us ask for this, just as the Muggles don't give any thought to their own gender on a day-to-day basis. I hate that some of us even have to consider suicide as an option, and many others actually feeling as if they must take such an extreme step.


...i can see how it seems i'm saying that the whole idea of being only a woman in your head or heart as you call it is trivial..apologies if it came out that way to you..i realize i'm making a politically incorrect statement but i have just seen it so many times...i am saying that if you are ts you will ultimately find little or no reward in knowing yourself as a woman..in my therapy group they had to separate the post ops and full timers because the others couldn't stand it anymore...they started looking at therapy as a way to feel worse about themselves...i can see how it may seem i'm saying something unsupportive, but in my mind its the opposite...i'm speaking from experience and honesty..
and its clear to me you are in a brutally honest and well thought out state of mind..your quality of life needs to be the best for you and yours.

If nothing else, I am honest. It's an interesting example you bring up. I can totally see how the non-full-timers could be troubled in a group therapy setting by exposure to the others. I think my difference is that I'm mostly at peace with where I am with this whole thing. I have friends in the real world who range across the spectrum, CD, in-transition & fully transitioned. My comfort level with myself is such that I don't look at those who are progressing with jealously. OK, perhaps a bit of envy here and there but it's not like I'm hanging with them and saying to myself "alright, I really must go there NOW". I see them for who they are, and acknowledge their personal situations which make such decisions possible for them.

So if I stay on this path, you are right, I am not likely to experience a complete fulfillment that would come as a reward for being true to my being. I counter that not only by simply being myself no matter how I'm presenting but also by being the absolute best I can be when presenting as female. This includes totally pushing the envelope when it comes to appearance but also by making those feminine experiences I have in the real world as fulfilling as possible. I have so many wonderful friends which provides tremendous emotional support and fulfillment. And I'm involved in a business venture with my friend Diana which gives me a unique opportunity to interact with others as a female, not from a social & emotional standpoint as with regular interactions but from a place of purpose.

Will any of this be the same as going down a full-time path? Certainly not but I will do the best I can given my circumstances.


i also think people miss out on the idea to someone like me or april or others that read a post where someone says "i'm a woman!!!" and then goes to make money in their male life, enjoy their male sex, hug their wife and kids and actually be happy about it is trivializing what we go through.. the opposite of saying "i have to support my family" is "you didn't support your family"..or at least it feels that way...this is especially difficult for me when someone says "i am putting my kids first"..which says that i didnt
so perhaps in my response i had more emotion than i would like to admit..i hope that's clear though...it goes both ways i guess...think about how a person that lost their job, family, friends and even their health to transition looks at it when someone says I'm a woman and then just shuts off the computer and goes happily back to male life...

Oh such great points. These perceptions certainly go both ways and while I hate it that you might even see it that way, I'm glad you pointed it out.

I'm going to go back to a story about my friend Christine from before I knew her. Pre-transition, when she would go out into the real world, she would tell me (& others as this story has come up in print pieces involving her) that when it came time to revert back to her male self, she would curl up in a ball on the ground and just weep. She was far from a place where she could put the guy back on and be happy in a male life. I think that is the difference between the valid point you bring up and my own situation. I'm not flipping back into a male role in an effort to retain "male privilege" and doing so happily. I'm kicking & screaming the entire way, so to speak, but I've taught myself to manage my emotions so that I don't become a wreck.

This is an area where I have so much respect for all who are on the road of transition. In theory, should I feel the heat of scorn from others, all I have to do is flip back and all in my world is "right" again. Anyone who is in transition doesn't have that option. If facing negativity in the world around them, there is no choice in the matter other than to potentially face it again tomorrow, and the next day, and the next, and so on.

Another Christine-ism, she described her decision as "transition or die". The unfortunate reality is that many share this perspective. We all have a degree as to how we can cope with our nature. I truly believe that a majority of those who make the decision to transition have exhausted all other options and therefore, decisions are made at risk to family relationships and/or career that are unavoidable. I may be in a place that I can still make an either/or decision and I am so sorry about the way you can perceive such a statement, that if I choose to maintain some semblance of certainty when it comes to providing for my family that you are not thinking of your kids first when it comes to providing for yours. I know that couldn't be further from the truth.


There are degrees of happiness, and the question that we should perhaps be thinking, is "would they be even happier as a woman."

Or is it "trading one set of issues for another"?

Would my heart be happier living full time as a female? Yes, I believe so. But should doing so rip apart the fabric of some or all of my personal relationships, then the hole left in my heart from such losses could never be fulfilled by living full time as a female.

Thus the conundrum many of us face.


Now that attitude I consider unreasonable. There is no shame in this thing in and of itself, there is only shame because of how society sees it. This thing is what it is. And frankly honesty, openness and diversity are more important than standing...even in the OC. She NEEDS to talk to someone, read things. heck take her to a support group meeting, encourage her to join "the other place". But communication between herself and others...and between you and her is important. Because like Kathi's wife, I suspect that the don't ask don't tell behavior means that she has little idea of the things you do or the depth of your feelings on the matters involved.

You don't have to be the martyr. I think you SHOULD fault her, to a certain extent. Turning a blind eye to this and going "la la la " isn't going to make it go away, is it? Honesty and openess are better!

I agree Veronica, there is no shame in this. Personally, I have been of that mindset for a number of years and while it doesn't mean I'm about to "out" myself to all who know me, I do know that I can manage the fallout with grace should I ever be somehow discovered.

Look at it through the POV of any SO who struggles with gender issues in their partner. They likely grew up with no question about the gender binary around them and in fact embraced the idea of growing up, marrying a MAN, building a life with a MAN, growing old with a MAN. Injecting TG into the mix cannot help but create issues and like I said, I cannot fault any SO for having difficulty. As for my wife, her and I do communicate and she is very well aware of the depth of this. It's not so much a DADT situation, nor talk about it all the time. It's not the stuff of trivial conversation. But there's the difference, I have others to communicate with, she chooses to have no one. I have suggested that she open up to one of her best friends, or to her mother, but she chooses not to.

So going back to what it would be like if I were "outed", her "what would the neighbors think" mindset makes this a very disturbing prospect. It could change someday but I'm not even going to think about forcing her hand.


Well he's not "exactly" right. But I do think that transfolk should deal with their issues BEFORE they get in relationships. And that if they're not absolutely certain of their trans-status, they should avoid marriage. But then again, I'm a 44 year old virgin who has never been on a date, so what do I know.

That is a very educated POV Veronica. It's a result of readily available information. It wasn't my reality but hopefully as time goes by, with so much information available online, people will be better prepared to address trans issues before marriage.

FWIW, I disclosed before marriage but clearly not to the depth that I should have. The things we do, or don't do, for love.


What? WHAAAT? How can you say that? living is better than dead. Living happy transfolk better than dead transfolk. This "thing of ours" can be dealt with, it can be understood, even if you transitioned, you'd still be a parent to your kids....if you were dead...that wouldn't be the case.

You are so cute Veronica!!! This made me smile. And yes, you are right. But when my mind goes to a dark place, I think of what this knowledge could do to my kids, let alone if it went public to a point where they had to cope with their peers knowing they have a trans-parent.

Kids are resilient, kids are understanding, I know in my heart of hearts they would likely be just fine, that they would love me all the same. But it completely rips my heart into pieces thinking of putting them through any such difficulty. Why should my pain become a cross for them to bear? What if it were like so many stories I've heard, when disclosure comes later in life when the kids are older and the parent ends up being shut out of their lives. That would devastate me.

All that said, it may seem selfish but I would prefer disclosure sooner than later, keeping it as "family business". Selfish because it would give them a burden, perhaps a worry or fear. Less selfish than taking one's own life though, I do acknowledge that.


I don't consider it (middle path) sustainable long term, either sooner or later, whether a few years or at retirement.

Time will tell Veronica.

I do wish I had a crystal ball (don't we all?) but honestly, there is part of me that wishes that if my "water boils over (again)" or my "bell rings louder" at some point in the future, just tell me now so I can get on with things while I'm still somewhat young and somewhat cute ;).


kaitlyn has a point...because from what I've seen, the middle path is not sustainable long term. Eventually something "breaks" and they decide to forsake it. Now that doesn't mean you won't make it work...but...will you be "truly" happy? Will you be "fully fulfilled" or just saying, "well...I just have to setting for this because the other thing isn't attainable, so I'm closing of that branch of the decision tree." Personally I cut off branches from my decision tree that I shouldn't have.

Such is the gist of a lot of what we're talking about. Again, time will tell.





(regarding employment prospects of the transitioner) Ahh, but might not that "other port" do so as well? Things have changed for the better in regards to that other port in such matters.

My "what-if" scenarios play out what it could be like to transition with my current employer. I don't believed they have faced it before. I do think that the things that make me somewhat beloved as a coworker, as a manager of people, and as a person our clients value, could help me survive and thrive in transition.


Well, I think you should more closely examine that port and see if you could make it work for you...but I am your cheerleader after all.

And what would I do without my favorite cheerleader??? :)


It was a momentous day. It was also unequivocally necessary, and very much long overdue. A momentous, life-changing moment, in the raw, emotional extreme. The simple, blessed, merciful relief I now feel and am currently experiencing as a result of finally breaking through a lifetime of denial, fear, repression, and hiding, and honestly admitting to myself what I have always known but refused to acknowledge, is quite palpable, tangible, and striking in its ameliorable and therapeutic potency. For the first time in a long time, I can breathe again. I can actually breathe again. I am transsexual. This is who and what I am. Thank you for your kind, understanding, and knowing words throughout the entirety of this thread. And I am very much pleased and proud to be your friend, as I am everyone here . . . . :)

You have come a long way Anne, my anonymous-no-more protagonist who inspired me to finally start this thread. I am truly happy for you and am here for support no matter what decisions you face in the days/weeks/months/years ahead.


There's a site from the UK (ts1change.com) that states you're TS before SRS, a woman afterwards. The issue that made you trans - body not being in alignment with mind/spirit (my words) - has been removed.

My feeling is that one isn't female - despite what one's mind/heart/spirit says - until she gets into the world on a daily basis. She works (or volunteers, maybe, if retired) as that female, she relates to her family and friends as that female, her documents verify her status in the world as female.

I believe someone could go through life pre-op as a female, working and relating as the woman she believes herself; I don't know that someone whose only qualification is knowing in her mind that she is female actually knows that she is - and I don't mean that in any negative way - it's just that if one doesn't become part of the world as a woman, then how does she really know she is a woman? And how the does the world know she is? I also feel that just having SRS and any other body/facial work by itself does not make you female (our good friend Charles Kane being an example).

I also feel that the sacrifices we make to become our "true selves" do not qualify us as female. We all find ourselves at different stations in life. We each have different timetables for transition, for becoming our true selves.

People talk of pyramids or hierarchies in the T world. But really, isn't it a circle? If I've had SRS, that makes me no more nor less than the person standing to either side of me; it may make me feel more complete. The fact that I am in the world acting as a woman also gives me more of a feeling of completeness. For a long time, however, I was like that person to either side of me who didn't or couldn't make the changes - for whatever reasons, and those are hers and hers alone. I don't disparage her for her situation or her decisions.

Val, I'm reading this as you making the cases on both sides of the coin at the same time. But I'll touch one one of your sentences..."it's just that if one doesn't become part of the world as a woman, then how does she really know she is a woman?" Isn't that what leads us down the TG path in the first place?

It's a tough question. No one questions "what makes a woman" when talking about a natal female. There might be discussion about traits or virtues but take any woman out there, no one can question whether she IS a woman. Yet in our world, that is not only something which is questioned, it also ends up slotting us along the aforementioned trans-hierarchy. Kind of like a chicken-and-the-egg theory.


I haven't been taking part in this conversation, Sara. I just want you to know that I honor your reality, both the joy and pain that it brings. I truly believe that your middle way is not wishy-washy. It is heroic.

Thank you Dawn.

----------------------------------

post-script - Thank goodness for the extra hour this morning!!!

[Debglam]

It's a tough question. No one questions "what makes a woman" when talking about a natal female. There might be discussion about traits or virtues but take any woman out there, no one can question whether she IS a woman. Yet in our world, that is not only something which is questioned, it also ends up slotting us along the aforementioned trans-hierarchy. Kind of like a chicken-and-the-egg theory.

I think that this is a point that is too often forgotten in the TG community. We argue and fight and mince the terminology to dust in defining what is a woman and who is a woman. We divide ourselves into even smaller subgroups in what is overall a pretty small group to start with. The result of this is powerlessness.

Outside of the trans world, there are plenty of people that consider none of us to be women, ever.

Just something to remember when we start categorizing.

Deb

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i agree deb, the value of categorizing yourself as a woman is limited if you don't live as a woman...however, living as a woman is the minimum standard outside the trans world..

i don't think this is about terminology anyway...its about what you do..and sara i think said it wonderfully that for now she is peaceful about the limits she set for herself....

I can't resist saying however that i set those limits on myself,
and pretty much every ts i've ever met has set those limits too......

[Debglam]

i agree deb, the value of categorizing yourself as a woman is limited if you don't live as a woman...however, living as a woman is the minimum standard outside the trans world..

i don't think this is about terminology anyway...its about what you do..and sara i think said it wonderfully that for now she is peaceful about the limits she set for herself....

I can't resist saying however that i set those limits on myself,
and pretty much every ts i've ever met has set those limits too......

Kaitlyn,

That's fine. I define myself too. Isn't that what really matters after all? :)


living as a woman is the minimum standard outside the trans world..

Unfortunately, no it is not. Being born (genetically) a woman is the standard to much of the "outside world." They don't care how you live, how well you pass, when or if you had surgery or hormones. If you weren't born a woman, they don't consider you one.

This is the point I want to make. I just don't see any benefit to the TG community to constantly argue who is "in" and who is "out" or who is "real" and who isn't. It may be self-satisfying but it doesn't improve our lot any. Just my opinion.

Deb

[SherriePall]

I almost decided not to post on this thread as many true and heartfelt words have been written. I believe I am following a middle path, too, but more on the masculine side due to family, work, and other commitments. The hardest time I have with going that route is when I must remove the makeup and return to a man's world after some time en femme. It really pains me to do so. There is a longing to stay, to forget about returning to my male side.
I make my declarations to myself. I know who I am. I have come this far in life. A couple more years won't hurt after all the years.

[Aprilrain]

[QUOTE=Debglam;2648193 Being born (genetically) a woman is the standard to much of the "outside world." They don't care how you live, how well you pass, when or if you had surgery or hormones. If you weren't born a woman, they don't consider you one. [/QUOTE]

Yes and no. In the real world "passing privilege" is worth its weight in gold. Its much like the American court system your innocent until proven guilty. So in affect they DO care how well you pass because if you pass perfect or well enough to cast reasonable doubt then you are afforded "cis privilege". Yes, you're right, there are certain people who will never consider a fully transitioned TS a woman or man, however the better you fit the description, A: the less you need to worry about it and, B: the easier it will be for others, even if they know your past, to accept the new you. Is that how it should be? No but it is the unfortunate reality of being human. The Less uncomfortable you make others the better they will treat you.

I can tell you from personal experience that LIVING as a woman will open up doors into the world of females that just being a "part time girl" will not get you. Wether you were born a woman or not is not as important to many of the woman I have met as actually living as one. The more like a certain group of people you are the easier it is for them to accept you as one of them. of course there will always be a certain disconnect the longer one lives as a male before transitioning to female the greater the divide will be. Girls who transition young avoid much of the masculine trappings of adulthood and spend more time ACTUALLY LIVING as a woman

[Debglam]

Yes and no. In the real world "passing privilege" is worth its weight in gold. Its much like the American court system your innocent until proven guilty.

Absolutely correct April. If they think you are a GF, then that is a totally different ballgame.


I can tell you from personal experience that LIVING as a woman will open up doors into the world of females that just being a "part time girl" will not get you. Wether you were born a woman or not is not as important to many of the woman I have met as actually living as one.

I believe you and will have to trust you on this. Middle pather don't forget :daydreaming:

I try to be optomistic. I think that progress IS being made, slowly, in the cisworld grasping the idea that gender IS between the ears and not the legs (Kate Bornstein if Veronica is correct.)

[Aprilrain]

I believe you and will have to trust you on this. Middle pather don't forget :daydreaming:

I try to be optomistic. I think that progress IS being made, slowly, in the cisworld grasping the idea that gender IS between the ears and not the legs (Kate Bornstein if Veronica is correct.)

you will likely always feel the sting of exclusion from woman as long as you look like, dress like, act like, and LIVE like a MAN!
This was so painful for me last year that I kinda raced to go full time. I don't regret being full time AT ALL but it makes it harder to be lazy! 5-o-clock shadows aren't very feminine!
Gender is NOT sex. Sex is what is between your legs gender may in fact be between the ears but no one else is going to take you seriously if you do not make an effort to LIVE as your target gender. You might be surprised at how forgiving people can be of ones inability to pass well as long as that person is making a concerted effort to look like act like dress like and LIVE like the target gender. Now if you're talking about society being more accepting of gender NON-CONFORMITY yes I'm sure in the future especially in more "progressive" places gender non-conformity will be more acceptable however that is very different than actually being seen as the gender other than the one you were assigned at birth.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Kaitlyn,

That's fine. I define myself too. Isn't that what really matters after all? :)



Unfortunately, no it is not. Being born (genetically) a woman is the standard to much of the "outside world." They don't care how you live, how well you pass, when or if you had surgery or hormones. If you weren't born a woman, they don't consider you one.

This is the point I want to make. I just don't see any benefit to the TG community to constantly argue who is "in" and who is "out" or who is "real" and who isn't. It may be self-satisfying but it doesn't improve our lot any. Just my opinion.

Deb

I can't agree that how you define yourself is what really matters.. its an important step to a fulfilling life for sure...but its just a step...its one ingredient to an authentic existence..

what you do matters...i'll ask it for the millionth time..if all that matters is how you define yourself, why are you dressing up like a woman and wearing a wig??
i'll tell you why, because what you do matters..how you present yourself to people matters..and how people respond to you matters..

you are choosing to do things the way you want...which is fine..
but your last comment is self defeating and shows you would be well served by better understanding what living full time as a woman is really like...you are projecting your experience to mine....crossdressing really is not comparable to transitioning..

it's true, passing is better, but transsexuals all over the world find that people are many (not all) people accept you as female when you commit to living as female..
many people avoid transition because they fear not passing that always makes me sad

i would also point out your last statement is a bit hypocritical...you are denying me that label while at the same time complaining that someone else would deny you the label...:battingeyelashes:

[Debglam]

Hi Kaitlyn,

Let me see if I can address your comments:


I can't agree that how you define yourself is what really matters.. its an important step to a fulfilling life for sure...but its just a step...its one ingredient to an authentic existence.. what you do matters...i'll ask it for the millionth time..if all that matters is how you define yourself, why are you dressing up like a woman and wearing a wig?? i'll tell you why, because what you do matters..how you present yourself to people matters..and how people respond to you matters..

I see your point and when I am "dressed up like a woman" and with my friends or out in public, for these brief, blessed times when I CAN be who I am, I consider myself to be a "woman" (please, no fights - I know that I am not the equivalent of either a GF or someone living as a woman full time). There are many here and even more outside this community who would tell me I'm not but that is how I define MY reality during those times. What I do, and yes the positive feedback helps, but it is the physical manifestation of how I see myself.


but your last comment is self defeating and shows you would be well served by better understanding what living full time as a woman is really like...you are projecting your experience to mine....crossdressing really is not comparable to transitioning..

i would also point out your last statement is a bit hypocritical...you are denying me that label while at the same time complaining that someone else would deny you the label...:battingeyelashes:

I’m not seeing what you are seeing in my last comments. I’m not trying to label anyone, to define anyone else’s reality or comparing myself to anyone else. All that I said is that there are a large number of people outside of the trans universe that don’t make any distinction between any of us, and consider NONE of us to be women. Do we (the royal we, not you or I or anyone specific) in the transgender universe really need to make distinctions as to who is real and who isn’t. I think that those of us who are transgender and have to limit our time as “women” to weeks, days, or even hours "get" that we are only role playing during the brief periods that we can. We really don’t need to be reminded of it all the time. Like I said, there are enough people in the cisworld who deny all of our realities.

I hope this makes sense. (PM if you are seeing something I'm not.)

Debby

[Inna]

Sara you have started something of a philosophical discussion here! How could I go gently into the night after reading all the posts here.

However insightful, this ground or that ground, we all missed the constant! and that is, for a transgender individual they are who they are weather they come to explore this realm early or late in their life. Man feeling as though they are a woman and vice verse, such is the reality of their being weather acted on or left alone. Millions of reasons not to explore the forbidden facade of self, restraint proves fatal and almost always blows up in the end leaving feeling of regret and guilt. But we are whom we are!!!! Transgender!!!! brothers and sisters, some do take it all the way, I am an individual who shall make every effort, even if it takes my life, to be the one and only I have always been within my heart. But not so long ago I was closeted crossdresser thinking that perhaps I could tough it out and get through this life in a status quo, little did I know about subconscious!
Failed suicide and there I was on the brink of existence with two choices, stay and embrace the truth or go in peace and never let the loved ones know the burden I carried.

But that is me, my path, my truth. What I do urge, and it comes from my woman's :) heart, do embrace the truth! Such is the stuff the dreams are made of.
What is love if not embrace of one self in truth, acceptance of others as they truly are, seeing this world of beauty and joy and events unfolding as meant and glorious