Are We Addicted?

[Kittyagain]

The longer I am in women's clothes, the more I want to stay there. This is common to so many post on this forum.

Like the cigarette, dressing is a means to a sense of well being. Those of us that smoked then quite know that nicotine is the best over the counter drug you can buy. Dressing is a very, very, close second for some, for others it s all consuming and knocks on the door of crack cocaine.

So many post show the worst addicted, take dressing over their family.

Am I wrong on this?

Kitty

[Karren H]

Nope... Not me... Never smoked (cigarettes).... Never been addicted or dependent on anything. And who says wearing women's clothing gives me sense of well being?

[LeaP]

Nope... Not me... Never smoked (cigarettes).... Never been addicted or dependent on anything. And who says wearing women's clothing gives me sense of well being?

Ok, I've read your responses along these lines now any number of times. Believe me, I totally understand feeling the difference between wanting and needing to dress, as I share it. Still, I would expect some sort of positive effect. In my case it hovers somewhere between relief and normalcy. Do you not experience anything similar? You certainly always LOOK happy in your photos.

Lea

[Cynthia Anne]

Perhaps you have a valid point for some! But there are many like me that were born to be fem! Therefore I don't see it as an addiction! Hugs!

[Lynn Marie]

I was considerably more addicted to cigarettes than to CDing. I was dressed and out both Friday and Saturday of last weekend and haven't been dressed since! Will be going out dressed tonight.

Also, after an evening out I usually can't wait to get out of my clothes and into something comfortable like bed! Dressing is great, just wouldn't want to have to do all the time.

[Jane P]

The more I try to understand why , the more I lean toward that it is not merely an addiction. I think many people condition themselves to associate dressing with a sexual release and that the masturbation becomes addictive. But , with more study going on with genetics and the workings of our brains it seems that some of us are genetically predisposed to be more feminine than the rest of the male population. I don't know if these studies have been done specifically on crossdressers or transgendered people , they have been done with regard to other human traits .

I'm no expert , I just think it goes beyond a "simple" addiction to be feminine.

[kimdl93]

Never been hooked on anything but CDing.

[Veronica27]

I wouldn't expect to hear a yes, to this question, on a crossdressing forum. Some non-crossdressers, particularly spouses of crossdressers, would probably say yes based on their observations of the apparent obsession with feminine dressing of cd's they know. But I wouldn't base my conclusions on their opinion either, because they are too personally involved with the consequences of the behaviour. There are no therapy groups that I am aware of, such as alcoholics anonymous or gamblers anonymous, for crossdressers and I have never heard of any 12 step programs to control the urge to crossdress. Most so-called expert opinion, including psychologists, psychiatrists and other medical groups no longer consider it to be anything pathological, so the answer is likely no. It does share some characteristics with addictions in some people, however. I don't worry about it, though, because if it is an addiction, it is a relatively harmless one, and is controllable to a large extent (i.e. we can control where and when we indulge, how much we spend etc.) usually without outside assistance.

Veronica

[Karren H]

Ok, I've read your responses along these lines now any number of times. Believe me, I totally understand feeling the difference between wanting and needing to dress, as I share it. Still, I would expect some sort of positive effect. In my case it hovers somewhere between relief and normalcy. Do you not experience anything similar? You certainly always LOOK happy in your photos.

Lea

I'm happy no matter what I wear! Lol. And I get a sense of well being all the time too... Changing my clothes really doesn't change anything but my looks..... And many times that barely changes too! Sigh.....

[gabimartini]

I understand your question. I don't think you are wrong, but I feel there's a lot more to it.

Those who are happy with their gender and dress to satisfy a fetish, may develop addiction, as it is the case with any habit. We do it so often that we become "hooked". First, we seek that gratification time and again, until the point of exhaustion. At that stage, the interest generally wanes. It's like that with a cool song, a TV show, physical activity, or mostly anything that produces a thrill.

However, those who dress because they have gender identification issues don't dress because they are addicted to it. They dress because they have no other choice. Dressing represents relief and redemption. It is an attempt to make things right and correct the disconnect between mind/soul and body.

I definitely fall in the second group. I have gone long periods without dressing, but it didn't change what I feel inside one bit. Whereas an "addict" wouldn't be able to go without their addiction for too long.

My two cents, anyway.

[Marilyn Beck]

Merriam Webster provides the following definition to the transitive verb addict: "to devote or surrender (oneself) to something habitually or obsessively <addicted to gambling>"

Based on that definition ... yes, I am addicted to crossdressing. I used to be addicted to cigarettes, but I quit in 1994.

I don't agree that my CD addiction necessarily implies that I would "take dressing over [my] family", as the OP suggests. While my kids were growing up and needed attention from me, I devoted virtually zero time to crossdressing (although I thought about it often). Similarly, I never made smoking cigarettes a priority when my family needed me.

[Kittyagain]

As always, I enjoy and accept the alternate view points.

I remember a Karen post where she posted on why she dresses the simple answer "Because I have too." Marilyn posted an addict is one who surrenders. That seems to fit.

I know for myself the longer I go without dressing, the more I want too. Nicotine did the same thing to me. As I see it, I want the feeling I get from dressing, the clothes, like cigarettes is just a mechanism to get there.

Great replies everyone. I enjoyed each one.

Kitty

[LeaP]

I'm happy no matter what I wear! Lol. And I get a sense of well being all the time too... Changing my clothes really doesn't change anything but my looks..... And many times that barely changes too! Sigh.....

That's interesting, and good on all the positives, of course! Do you experience nothing emotionally or psychologically, then? To what do you attribute the need? (apologies if too personal)

Lea

[sanderlay]

Are We Addicted?

The longer I am in women's clothes, the more I want to stay there. This is common to so many post on this forum.

Like the cigarette, dressing is a means to a sense of well being. Those of us that smoked then quite know that nicotine is the best over the counter drug you can buy. Dressing is a very, very, close second for some, for others it s all consuming and knocks on the door of crack cocaine.

So many post show the worst addicted, take dressing over their family.

Am I wrong on this?


I understand your question. I don't think you are wrong, but I feel there's a lot more to it.

Those who are happy with their gender and dress to satisfy a fetish, may develop addiction, as it is the case with any habit. We do it so often that we become "hooked". First, we seek that gratification time and again, until the point of exhaustion. At that stage, the interest generally wanes. It's like that with a cool song, a TV show, physical activity, or mostly anything that produces a thrill.

However, those who dress because they have gender identification issues don't dress because they are addicted to it. They dress because they have no other choice. Dressing represents relief and redemption. It is an attempt to make things right and correct the disconnect between mind/soul and body.

I definitely fall in the second group. I have gone long periods without dressing, but it didn't change what I feel inside one bit. Whereas an "addict" wouldn't be able to go without their addiction for too long.

My two cents, anyway.

I would not call it an addiction myself... but there is a sociological need for me to do this. I believe it is related to gender and our societies narrow definition of how we present. Now our bodes and our minds react in many ways that we do not understand fully. Is it possible that my mind uses the avenue of clothing to express femininity that I have suppressed for so long? And could my body use mechanisms similar to an addiction?

I can't answer theses questions with certainty but that is my theory at the moment. An addiction suggests I sick... and need to be cured... relieved of my addiction.

For over fifty years I tried not to dress. I did everything I could to accept only dressing as a male. I removed things that were feminine from my life. The result... it did not cure me... and I was unhappy suppressing my femininity.

So I do not believe this is an addiction for myself but rather a gender identity issue. Just as a person should never suppress a trauma or their emotions without harming their mind and body. Repressed emotions or a trauma can explode if not given an avenue to express it. Gender identity I think is the same... but I'm no expert. This is just my opinion... or theory.

[CINDYO]

you are correct, definetly an addiction that needs to be controlled or it will destroy many facets of one's life

[docrobbysherry]

I am NOT one who feels TG. And, at age 60+, I've never been prone to an addiction or compulsion! They don't seem to occur in my family either.

However, I DO find that dressing has become an extreme compulsion for me! If there were a CDs Anonymous, I'd at least go a meeting! Not sure I'd stand up and confess, "Yes! I admit it! I'm a crossdresser!", tho!

Honestly, if I found something that was HALF as much fun and/or satisfying, I mite try substituting it! Anyone have any suggestions?
No, thanks, Karren! I'm too old and brittle for hockey!

[VioletJourney]

I can, and have, stop if I want to. To me, dressing is just a fun activity to pass the time, one option out of so, so many.

[Karren H]

That's interesting, and good on all the positives, of course! Do you experience nothing emotionally or psychologically, then? To what do you attribute the need? (apologies if too personal)

Lea

Not personal at all. I don't get excited or aroused.. Almost mundane.... Like something on my to-do list... "Take out the garbage, clean the garage, go to the hardware, go play ice hockey, dress up like a girl". Lol. Been that way for some time. Dressing in feminine clothing is "normal" feeling but so is dressing in male clothes... feels the same... Looks different.

[suzy1]

All this thread is doing is teaching us what we already know.
That we are all different within the confines of crossdressing.
Some do it for one reason and some for that and so on.

I would rather not worry about it and just be Suzy and have fun.

[ReineD]

Several thoughts.

The need to express an alternative gender identity than birth sex is not an addiction/compulsion, even though both can share similar characteristics.

There are crossdressers who develop shopping or sexual compulsions, or who are inordinately preoccupied with the expression of self to the detriment of other obligations and responsibilities. There are other crossdressers who don't and who aren't. So, the self-preoccupation, the compulsive shopping, and the sexual compulsion are separate from the act of crossdressing itself.

Some (most?) crossdressers and most addicts will feel the need to hide the extent of their actions from society at large. But, both do it for different reasons. A crossdresser feels he needs to hide because we do live in a world that is biased against alternative gender expression, even though he is not harming himself or others when he dresses (providing he does not engage in the compulsions mentioned in the prior paragraph). To dress openly might risk unpleasant consequences for some CDs. An addict most definitely causes self-harm and/or risks harming others, even though open manifestations of his behaviors (losing the farm at the racetrack or getting drunk in public for example) will often not cause other people to express open scorn.

A crossdresser will not be in denial over his need to express an alternative gender identity. An addict will often be in denial over the extent of his addiction, and he will not be aware of the bodily and/or psychological harm he inflicts upon himself and his loved ones.

The question remains, how do couples where one partner CDs define what is excessive or problematic and what is not, if a wife is completely opposed to the CDing? She may well feel that dressing once per week or once per month is excessive and is therefore an addiction. Whereas a crossdresser may feel that expressing himself three times per week is sufficient.

So, excluding the transsexuals who do reach a point where they can no longer live as men, my opinion is, there isn't an issue as long as there is balance (this means a genuine satisfaction with also living as a guy) and as long as other responsibilities and obligations are met happily and not reluctantly. And of course as long as there aren't also issues with the shopping and/or sexual acting out.

Another question is raised when a CDer reaches a point of isolation in order to CD. That is, he gives up family and friends and willingly lives a solitary life and he further takes no steps to transition. To isolate oneself from most other human contact seems counter-intuitive to leading a happy life, but there are just so many variables that may cause such a situation that it is difficult to determine whether the CDing for this person is a compulsion or not.

:2c: Although I'm sure I haven't addressed every possible variation or problem area.

[Stephanie47]

I tried smoking in my early twenties for two packs worth. I couldn't taste good food (or bad). My hair stunk. My clothes stunk. My fingers stunk. I had to wash my hair too often. Smoking sucked. During classes I sat in a blue haze that circled my head. I'd rather be in a pink fog. I'm en femme when I feel the need. I can go without dressing for three months without beating my head against the wall. I control my cross dressing. A smoker is controlled by cigarettes. I just hope any of your who chew tobacco don't do it when en femme! YUCK! That would be an addiction!!!

[CynthiaD]

No, we're not addicted. I'm a recovered alcoholic and I've gotten addicted to a couple of prescription drugs, even though I used them legally. When you stop dressing do you spend the entire next day with your head in the toilet puking your guts out? No. Do you get the shakes so bad you can't hold a cup of coffee? No. Do you spend an entire week with the cold sweats so bad that you feel like you just stepped out of of the shower? No. Do you lay awake night after night imagining that you are in hell and that demons are appearing next to your bed to torment you? No.

We use the term "addiction" much too lightly today. Real addiction is the closest thing there is to hell on earth. Crossdressing is just the opposite. It brings me happiness, not misery. Just because you like something so much that you do it all the time does not mean you're addicted to it. Do you eat food? Every day? Do you do this because you're addicted to food, or because food is necessary to maintain life?

For me, crossdressing is like food. It's necessary for me because it helps me maintain my happiness and my sanity.

CK

[Jane P]

The more I try to understand why , the more I lean toward that it is not merely an addiction. I think many people condition themselves to associate dressing with a sexual release and that the masturbation becomes addictive. But , with more study going on with genetics and the workings of our brains it seems that some of us are genetically predisposed to be more feminine than the rest of the male population. I don't know if these studies have been done specifically on crossdressers or transgendered people , they have been done with regard to other human traits .

I'm no expert , I just think it goes beyond a "simple" addiction to be feminine.

After a quick search I found this old (2008) article regarding genetic research and transgenderism. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7689007.stm
It suggests that while some of us may be genetically predisposed to being transgendered or crossdressers , how it affects each individual will vary.

[suchacutie]

I eat every day, so am I addicted to food?

I'm sure you all answered, "No" since food is a requirement of our biochemistry. I would argue that being transgendered is also an issue of biochemistry. Once one realizes the nature of our selves, how does one put that back into the bottle?

An addiction comes from some outside source while being transgendered comes from within.

tina

[Kittyagain]

Y'all put up some good arguments for "No it is not addicting." I still thank it is but not so convinced as I was when I made the post.

Just thought of this. When I smoked, I dressed far less. Probably a coincidence in time but still interesting.

Kitty

[Shananigans]

Anyone who puts something as impermanent and materialistic as how they dress above their families is delusional and I doubt will ever know the true meaning of happiness.

I'd wear a potato sack and a paper bag over my head if it came down to it or losing my family. (What I wear only has to do with an outward portrayal of my gender...my gender itself comes from within). Your family are *usually* the only people in this world that love you unconditionally, and that's why it's so devastating to lose a parent or child. I'm sorry, but if anyone puts a manner of dress over something as important as that...I feel very sorry them, because they are not living. When looking back on your life, will you say that it was worth anything? A selfish person isn't missed and a selfish person does not offer anything to anyone but themselves.

I disagree when it is said that "so many posts take dressing over their family." I wouldn't stay here if that were the case, because I don't associate with people that are that low.

I can take arguments where people say "this is a part of me and it is important." It seems like everyone struggles with balance. But, we struggle with balance in EVERYTHING in life.

Your CDing is not a special phenomenon. It merits no more special attention than other things in life. When you are out of balance, you suffer. And, THAT'S what I see on this forum.

Asking a husband to completely abandon something that makes him happy is unfair because the absence of something isn't exactly being in balance either. But, choosing a method of dress over anything else in your life is on the other end of being imbalanced.

[kendra_gurl]

Addressing an addiction to food or tobacco or drugs which are a chemical addiction which alters the blood chemstry is not the same as crossdressing for those who do not consider themselves transgender.

For a lot of us crossdressing If its an addiction is more like an addiction to internet porn or Girly magizines or reading erotic stories. While most of us who have dressed for years and years the sexual part of it has deminished quite a bit the visual stimulas has not.

Other non chemical addictions are gambling, workaholics, shopping, video games, all of which affect the brain in some manner simular to our desire to crossdress rather than alter our chemistry.

Even visiting this site is addictive for me.

Funny thing about most any non chemical addiction is that you can get by fine without it when you know you can't or you don't have an oppertunity to satisfy that urge. But the moment you know an oppertunity will be come available it consumes your every thought to plan for it.

I dress just about as often as I want so its easy for me to think It's just something I enjoy instead of an addiction but I think any of us who try to give it up after a few months may find it an addiction they cannot break.

[Kate Simmons]

Nope just pleasingly plumpt. If we take it too seriously and don't have fun with it, we are going down the wrong path in my opinion. The family always has to come first, despite our "needs".:)

[VioletJourney]

I eat every day, so am I addicted to food?

I'm sure you all answered, "No" since food is a requirement of our biochemistry. I would argue that being transgendered is also an issue of biochemistry. Once one realizes the nature of our selves, how does one put that back into the bottle?

An addiction comes from some outside source while being transgendered comes from within.

tina
You can accept being female on the inside but still wear male clothes though. At the end of the day, clothes and makeup are all just fabric and pigment.

[Shananigans]

You can accept being female on the inside but still wear male clothes though. At the end of the day, clothes and makeup are all just fabric and pigment.

I can't insert just the clapping symbol, so you get this sentence.

:clap:

[kendra_gurl]

You can accept being female on the inside but still wear male clothes though. At the end of the day, clothes and makeup are all just fabric and pigment.

But the reflection you see in the mirror can become addictive

[Shananigans]

But the reflection you see in the mirror can become addictive

Don't hang out in front of the mirror so much for it to become an addiction.

Train for a marathon...do something nice for your SO...volunteer.

These things are much more rewarding than looks, which deteriorate with time.

[rhonda]

Addiction absolutey you cant turn it off ,the more you do it the more you want to do it . I think it's a wonderful thing to do I love it want to get better at it

[*Vanessa*]

.
Nope, never been addicted to anything but "Addicted to Love" an old song just popped into the noddle.

You maybe experiencing the rush of Endorphins through your vanes. I here they can do a number on a dudette :)

[DeniseNJ]

I do not know if some kind of satisfacation chemical is sercreted into the brain when we dress. Some say it is a stress reliever, some say it is comforting when we dress . What ever it is, the more we do it, the more of a craving we create to be feminine again. It is hard to accept the inner girl when she wants to look pretty because those cravings can come when we least expect it... My 02 cents

[Launa]

I'm not addicted to it but I sure like doing it though. The only time I think its an addiction is if it takes over the family dynamics. It can be a real hard balance for some of us. If my CDing didn't have an impact on my family then it would just be like all the other fun stuff I do, skiing, boxing, renovations to the house etc...Too bad everybody has to give us some shit about it.

[ReineD]

OK. I'm changing my mind about the CDing being an addiction for some people. Come to think about it, I'll read a few posts from people and tell myself, "Naaaah." And then I'll read something else and think, "Yup, there are endorphins and dopamine at play here." :p

One thing I've learned in this forum ... there are no absolutes! :p

[TGMarla]

:drunk: Um.....yeah, man. I'm like....addicted man. Maiden monkey on my back. I mainline this stuff, man! That's why there's spikes on the shoes.

Addicted, obsessive, whatever. I do tend to do it a lot, and there are times when the compulsion to do it is very strong.

Hey, got any perfume, man? I need a fix.

:ft:

[Dawn cd]

Addiction as commonly understood implies destructive behavior. I don't believe dressing in clothes of the other gender is in any way destructive, although if it sucks up all of your time and energy it could be termed obsessive. For most of us, cross dressing is mildly compulsive. Let's not over-dramatize it.

[Kylie.K]

I remember the first time I dressed. I was 12 and had stumbled upon some lingerie my mother had stashed away. Beautiful purple satin with black lace garter belt, panties and bra. Also had fishnet stockings. I put all that on and was just in awe of how great I looked. Of course being 12 you know what it did to my just-entering-puberty body. So my first time dressing resulted in a great reward. From that time until I moved out on my own my times dressing were limited to sneaking into mom's closet and trying on some of her things. Once out on my own I was too poor to afford any clothes other than the necessities which were my guy clothes. It wasn't until after I was married that I could start buying some things. It started with panties and some lingerie. Then I got a cute jumper dress, blouse and a skirt from a garage sale. I kept those few things for several years and would dress up only a few times a year, with panties and lingerie being a normal part of my every day wardrobe.

Then about four years ago I got a maids uniform from LD Fashions. I have since retired it, I need to get a new one. That one was worn out!

So for me I don't think it's an addiction. The release of endorphins has passed, to some point. I don't get the awesome rush out of going shopping in a skirt, or going into a store and trying on dresses while in drab. That rush only happened the first couple of times. Now it's just something I enjoy. I like to shop. That's probably way more of an addiction than crossdressing. However, I still have a real feeling of calm when I am dressed up. I just feel more at peace. You would think wearing a skirt when shopping would get my nerves up, but it's kind of the opposite. I can really relax. I don't know why it gives me such peace, but it does. Even wearing panties under my guy clothes to work makes me much more calm. So I really wouldn't say I'm addicted. I guess the only way to find out is for me to purge all my stuff and stop dressing, never visit this site again and bury Kylie away somewhere never to be a part of me again. But I can tell you that's not going to happen! So I may never know for sure.

*Hugs*
-Kylie

[docrobbysherry]

Addressing an addiction to food or tobacco or drugs which are a chemical addiction which alters the blood chemstry is not the same as crossdressing for those who do not consider themselves transgender.-----------
Let's see that's a double negative, Kendra. So, tranlated it means, " --- a chemical addiction is the same as CDing for those who consider themselves TG." Rite?

The problem I have with that is; I definitely do NOT feel like I'm TG. However, that rush I get when I see Sherry is as close to hard drugs as I ever want to get!


OK. I'm changing my mind about the CDing being an addiction for some people. Come to think about it, I'll read a few posts from people and tell myself, "Naaaah." And then I'll read something else and think, "Yup, there are endorphins and dopamine at play here." :p

One thing I've learned in this forum ... there are no absolutes! :p
U posted this just in time, Reine! I was about to challenge your earlier post! GGs r so damed perceptive! It drives me nuts AND it's one of the things I just LOVE about u!


Addiction as commonly understood implies destructive behavior. I don't believe dressing in clothes of the other gender is in any way destructive, although if it sucks up all of your time and energy it could be termed obsessive. For most of us, cross dressing is mildly compulsive. Let's not over-dramatize it.
An obsessive, compulsive disorder, yes, Dawn. It doesn't make me put dressing above my family, but as u said, it DOES suck up A LOT of my time!

[AnitaH]

Like another poster I spent nearly 40 years believing My CD was an addiction. I actively suppressed it and spent some years in counseling over it. Went a couple of years several times without indulging, but it all of this nothing changed. The feminine screams to get out. I no longer treat it as an addiction but as a trans-gendered issue, it's an essential part of who or what I am. That takes it out of the addiction catagory.

AnitaH

[Dixie]

No way I'm I addicted. I can quit anytime I want and have, at least 8 times. ;)

[rhonda]

Are we addicted yes we love it and can not stop family is important but don't change the fact we're hooked and love it

[Kittyagain]

Interesting though, people I talk to that have not quite smoking, do not see it as an addiction and always say things like, "I enjoy smoking too much to quite." or "It is my stress reliever."

The parallels seem to be there.

If I put on female clothes and it did not change me in some way that I see as positive, I would not dress. We are addicted to that change, not the clothes we put on it seems to me as one thought. But if we are born with this, then it is truly not an addiction.

Kitty

[Raychel]

Yes I am adicted, But I also can quit at any time, Sometime real fast if I here one of my sons walk in the house. :heehee:

[LeaP]

I'd wear a potato sack and a paper bag over my head if it came down to it or losing my family. (What I wear only has to do with an outward portrayal of my gender...my gender itself comes from within). Your family are *usually* the only people in this world that love you unconditionally, and that's why it's so devastating to lose a parent or child. I'm sorry, but if anyone puts a manner of dress over something as important as that...I feel very sorry them, because they are not living. When looking back on your life, will you say that it was worth anything? A selfish person isn't missed and a selfish person does not offer anything to anyone but themselves.

I disagree when it is said that "so many posts take dressing over their family." I wouldn't stay here if that were the case, because I don't associate with people that are that low.

I can take arguments where people say "this is a part of me and it is important." It seems like everyone struggles with balance. But, we struggle with balance in EVERYTHING in life.


I agree thematically with the general sentiments (not to minimize what you're saying), but wonder at the reality. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you would be willing to forego any outward expression of your gender, permanently, using clothes as the example, rather than lose your family, is that correct? Other questions: Does any objection to dressing, then, make the CD'er selfish ... or the objector? Do you really think it's possible to suppress gender expression completely? Could you, and what would be the consequences? Isn't there a difference between self-sacrifice out of necessity (no options, no possibility of choice) and martyr behavior? Must the positions be extreme - isn't there a difference, say, between fully presenting female and doing something lesser?

Lea

[drag n fly]

Not personal at all. I don't get excited or aroused.. Almost mundane.... Like something on my to-do list... "Take out the garbage, clean the garage, go to the hardware, go play ice hockey, dress up like a girl". Lol. Been that way for some time. Dressing in feminine clothing is "normal" feeling but so is dressing in male clothes... feels the same... Looks different. Karren..your reasoning here seems elusive...If you feel no difference dressed as either a man or a woman; then why cross-dress? And on top of all this, you are very convincing. And attractive, I might add..You appear to relish being dressed en femme..I love your upbeat, humorous listings here..You make this all the more fun...Thanks smooches Jackie

[kendra_gurl]

Let's see that's a double negative, Kendra. So, tranlated it means, " --- a chemical addiction is the same as CDing for those who consider themselves TG." Rite?

The problem I have with that is; I definitely do NOT feel like I'm TG. However, that rush I get when I see Sherry is as close to hard drugs as I ever want to get!


!

What is double negative about it? I like you have never considered myself transgendered but do not consider those who are as having a chemical addiction to it. I disagree with your analogy.

For the purpose of this thread I am not tying to imply anything at all about anyone who considers themselve TG. The difference between CD's and TG's have been done many times oin other threads

Addictions commonly are considered a negative but they do not always have to be. Example is a Work addiction is not a bad thing untill it takes away from other things like family and loved ones.

Let take for example a male who only likes to underdress. He is willing to risk ridicule and possibly his employment if found out just to wear panties, garter belt and stockings under his normal work clothes. He is doing this purely for his own enjoyment as know one else knows. Underdressing is not something he HAS to do but rather something he enjoys to the point he takes great risk to do
Is that an addiction? Is it an obsessive behaivor? Are obsessive behaivors also addictions?

Another example.. A man with a wife who does not really accept yet he continues to wear panties to sleep in everynight. I read this all the time and think WHY?

He puts on panties and in 10 minutes he is asleep and no longer gets the feeling of them yet he is willing to make his wife very uncomfortable about his need to do it.

To me I think that is at the least a form of addiction.

[drag n fly]

No, we're not addicted. I'm a recovered alcoholic and I've gotten addicted to a couple of prescription drugs, even though I used them legally. When you stop dressing do you spend the entire next day with your head in the toilet puking your guts out? No. Do you get the shakes so bad you can't hold a cup of coffee? No. Do you spend an entire week with the cold sweats so bad that you feel like you just stepped out of of the shower? No. Do you lay awake night after night imagining that you are in hell and that demons are appearing next to your bed to torment you? No.

We use the term "addiction" much too lightly today. Real addiction is the closest thing there is to hell on earth. Crossdressing is just the opposite. It brings me happiness, not misery. Just because you like something so much that you do it all the time does not mean you're addicted to it. Do you eat food? Every day? Do you do this because you're addicted to food, or because food is necessary to maintain life?

For me, crossdressing is like food. It's necessary for me because it helps me maintain my happiness and my sanity.

CK Cynthia...thanks for this post..You and I share many things in common...I, too, am a recovered Alcoholic...Seventeen years now...My crossdressing comes across more as a true need than an addiction....like eating, as you say...I just love being feminine and the feel of feminine soft, frilly clothes...Thanks Jackie

[eluuzion]

“I’m not an alcoholic, I’m a drunk.
Alcoholics go to meetings.”

“I decided it was time to quit smoking.
So I quit the next morning.
Now the only time I smoke is when I want a cigarette.”

I may be a "Dick", but I am not an "Addict"
:D


I do believe there is an increased risk for some people in physically addicting substances such as alcohol and drugs. Children of alcoholic parents seem to be at higher risk for alcoholism. But I still believe it is an individual issue for each person. My sister has one drink and her personality changes to a “drunk”. She repeats jokes, becomes antagonistic, emotional etc. She continues to drink until she basically passes out. The next day she will not remember anything after that first drink. Yes, I think she is now a “functioning” alcoholic. (Neither of my parents were alcoholics).

I am the opposite. I used to drink a lot in my 20’s & 30’s. But I always reached a point where I was finished. At bars I was always the driver because I was sober by the time we left. When I lived in Cali, Colombia I certainly could have been considered by many people to have been “addicted” to cocaine. The day I arrived back in the U.S. I quit that same day and never did drugs again. Was I addicted? When I smoked cigarettes I never smoked all day, (sometimes 2 days or more when traveling) and did not crave it at all.

Crossdressing is the same. I never did any dressing the three days of the week I had custody of my daughter (every single week). It never crossed my mind during those times.

My point is that I believe some people have addictive propensities and others do not. I do not. My sister does. In my opinion, compulsive and “addictive” behavior has close ties with individual personality and character.

As already stated by others, I believe “addictions” inevitably take a toll on well-adjusted, functional behavior in some degree…typically to a great degree. Addictive behavior typically presents a similar downward spiral in a person’s ability to function productively and carry out their routine commitments and responsibilities in life.

In my opinion, CDing and similar behaviors can certainly be labeled compulsive, but are not “addictions”. There are no physical substances influencing/altering human biological processes.

It is not an addiction. It is a behavior that some people may feel “compelled” to continue on a regular basis. For some individuals, it might be considered compulsive behavior. In others, (as in my case) it is simply one more toy in the toy box that does not displace or minimize the importance of, or participation in the other areas of daily life.

Just my perspective. :hugs:
:love:

[Shananigans]

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you would be willing to forego any outward expression of your gender, permanently, using clothes as the example, rather than lose your family, is that correct?
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Gender is very internal for me...nothing about a bra or a dress yells, "OH MY GOD! LIKE, I'M TOTALLY A WOMAN!" No...not even. In fact, those things matter very little. I would miss them a little if tomorrow I could not wear them for some reason. I would miss what they sometimes provide for me...feeling sexy and sophisticated. But, really, the times I am most feminine have very little to do with what I am wearing. The most feminine moment of my life actually was holding my baby cousin and rocking her to sleep. I think I had on track pants and sweat shirt at the time, because I had just got home from a track meet. I was so happy to see her and to hold her little hand and rock her to sleep. It felt really powerful to have this little life in my arms that I was protecting and calming.

So, in an essence, THAT is an outward portrayal of my feminine essence and has nothing to do with clothes. In fact, the clothes I was wearing at the time were completely "masculine." But, all of the maternal care, protection, and love for someone so close to my heart is a better example of an outward portrayal of my feminine essence than any clothing item.


Other questions: Does any objection to dressing, then, make the CD'er selfish ... or the objector? Do you really think it's possible to suppress gender expression completely? Could you, and what would be the consequences? Isn't there a difference between self-sacrifice out of necessity (no options, no possibility of choice) and martyr behavior? Must the positions be extreme - isn't there a difference, say, between fully presenting female and doing something lesser?

I see CDing as often a part of who someone is and I have seen where wives and family members want absolutely nothing to do with it. A lot of the time, it's the wife in question and usually the wife was informed years after marriage. I can't say I exactly blame this person for being upset, especially if you had been married to someone for 10 years and suddenly he is a CD and wants it to be FT. But, in this area we are talking about ADDICTION. And, an addiction is where something in your life is so important that everything else suffers as a consequence. I hear of CDs that max out credit cards, get a family into a financial crisis, go out every night to TG clubs leaving their wife at home to care for the kids...

Sorry, but that's the opposite of feminine in how I was raised. I see what is feminine in a completely different light than most CDs...being a woman has jack sh*t to do with my clothes. I could throw them away tomorrow and still express my femininity through my actions, my compassion, and my care. Things that people with an addiction lack. In fact, if you have a clothing addiction to the point you are maxing out credit cards and going out to clubs every night of the week instead of caring for your family...you are the opposite of feminine. No amount of lipstick is going to help you.

[Cheryl T]

I'm not addicted...this is self-expression.

[Maria 60]

I will say as a non smoker for seven years and still thinking about it still today, i believe when it's in your blood and you enjoy it,it's hard to let it go. I wrote a thread last week about the frustration of waiting to dress and not knowing when the next time will be and feeling selfish that i want this time alone and with the family growing older it's a matter of time when they will move out and i will miss them dearly. But it's an addiction i need my fix once in a while and if weeks go by my wife will see the frustration and will help me to get a few hours alone. I could not imagine how all the sisters who's wife's don't know how they cope with it.

[Yazna]

:battingeyelashes:Yes for sure we are Addicted to dress up as a Beautiful Sexy Feminine Girl with all our respect to all the GG present here in this Forum!

[Aprilrain]

So many post show the worst addicted, take dressing over their family.

Am I wrong on this?

some family's suck! just sayin.

Kittyagain as far as I can tell you are wrong about 90% of the time. My math might be a little off on that but its close enough.

[Aprilrain]

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Gender is very internal for me...nothing about a bra or a dress yells, "OH MY GOD! LIKE, I'M TOTALLY A WOMAN!"

true and I understand........ now! but CDers don't have the luxury of be cisgendered like you or full time like me.
OMG! did i just defend CDers??????? wheres the thermometer!

[Shananigans]

true and I understand........ now! but CDers don't have the luxury of be cisgendered like you or full time like me.
OMG! did i just defend CDers??????? wheres the thermometer!


Haha I love you. And, you bring up a good point. The dressing component can be definition of the femininity for most CDs. (But, not all).

I also just don't agree with what was said originally that this is an "addiction" or something that is really negative. I don't agree that many people are putting it at the expense of their families.

I have no problem with CDing and I don't see my SO as addicted to it. I think it's a very necessary part of his self-expression, but I never feel an "addiction" to the point that everything around him is suffering due to CDing.

So, when I say I could give up my dresses and bras and it not matter...I'm telling the truth. But, I do enjoy these things. And, as long as they don't cause harm to other people or myself (an addiction), then it is okay to wear them. Same for any CD.

[ReineD]

So, when I say I could give up my dresses and bras and it not matter...I'm telling the truth. But, I do enjoy these things. And, as long as they don't cause harm to other people or myself (an addiction), then it is okay to wear them. Same for any CD.

I get what you're saying. The dresses, hair, and makeup would become a problem for you, me, and any other GG, if:


we spent more money on them than we could afford.
we weren't able to go to a store without getting something for ourselves each time.
the priority would be on how we look, to the point there would be some activities we wouldn't engage in for fear of ruining our makeup or clothes (like hiking, swimming, no going for a walk because our shoes aren't comfortable, etc).
we couldn't walk by a mirror without admiring ourselves.
we spent an excessive amount of time (this is subjective) on the grooming: nails, hair, constantly fixing our makeup.
as the result of all this, we were unable to be there emotionally for others.


In other words, it would be a problem if our worlds revolved around our appearance. I'm not saying this is what CDers do, just putting it in perspective with GGs who are consistently self-obsessed over a long-term, and how difficult it would be to be in a relationship with someone like that.

[Jilmac]

If it is an addiction, it's one I don't want treatment for, besides, I don't think there's a twelve step program for us anyway.

[sometimes_miss]

After years of reading these forums, I've come to the conclusion that crossdressing is not simply an addiction. We may be drawn to it, in an such a way as to be nearly irresistable, but it's probably not a classic addiction. For some, it's a desire to be allowed to behave, and dress, as who we really are (or, who we really feel we are supposed to be). The huge stigma attached to feminine behavior/dress as male is what causes all the conflict. Men don't have the option of dressing and behaving as females (as much as say, women have acquired the option of embracing male type attire, roles and behavior when they want to). There have been studies showing why males behave this way; but it's not really important why we do it. We should simply have the right to behave in the feminine role, just as much as women have demanded the right to behave in the traditionally male role.

[Contessa]

It is hard to go by without saying something in this thread. I am not addicted to dressing, I am addicted to women. I think they are just gorgeous, I'd like be able to strut around so people could just see me. I know some GG's must feel that they are being looked at, some even try to ignore the fact that they're good looking. To look good and smell good, I just like it so I want to do it too. When I was wearing my mothers clothing I was insanely jealous they could wear that stuff. I always wanted to strut down the street, like they do. The one thing I wanted to do most was carry a purse. Now I know carrying a purse is not addictive, but doing it like a woman is. I think my feelings for women are very strong, I can't keep resisting or is it Contessa screaming get one4 so we can go out. And she(I) want all the other stuff too. We(she) wants to look good as I (she, we) want her too. I'm not addicted I might say I am in love which might sound ridiculous. I feel I look and feel the way I think they might feel. Yes I am emotional I'm a gurl, and as SL says I love being a girl(gurl).

[LeaP]

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Gender is very internal for me...nothing about a bra or a dress yells, "OH MY GOD! LIKE, I'M TOTALLY A WOMAN!" No...not even. In fact, those things matter very little. ...

So, in an essence, THAT is an outward portrayal of my feminine essence and has nothing to do with clothes. In fact, the clothes I was wearing at the time were completely "masculine." But, all of the maternal care, protection, and love for someone so close to my heart is a better example of an outward portrayal of my feminine essence than any clothing item. ...

I see CDing as often a part of who someone is and I have seen where wives and family members want absolutely nothing to do with it. A lot of the time, it's the wife in question and usually the wife was informed years after marriage. I can't say I exactly blame this person for being upset, especially if you had been married to someone for 10 years and suddenly he is a CD and wants it to be FT. But, in this area we are talking about ADDICTION. And, an addiction is where something in your life is so important that everything else suffers as a consequence. I hear of CDs that max out credit cards, get a family into a financial crisis, go out every night to TG clubs leaving their wife at home to care for the kids...

Sorry, but that's the opposite of feminine in how I was raised. I see what is feminine in a completely different light than most CDs...being a woman has jack sh*t to do with my clothes. I could throw them away tomorrow and still express my femininity through my actions, my compassion, and my care. Things that people with an addiction lack. In fact, if you have a clothing addiction to the point you are maxing out credit cards and going out to clubs every night of the week instead of caring for your family...you are the opposite of feminine. No amount of lipstick is going to help you.

You responded along dressing lines, then went into inner identity and nurturing. Two difficulties here: I asked if you would be able to forego ANY outward expression of your (feminine) identity. While nurturing is clearly something that exists at both gender poles, it is different for men. The question, in essence, is whether it is possible to BE something in any way at all that is meaningful if it has NO expression. The second point was on dressing itself. I grant that dressing is a limited expression. I grant, moreover, that it can be viewed as superficial in many ways. So I understand that aspect of your response. What you may not realize, however, is the enabling aspect of dressing, that it is an important vehicle for the identity that is suppressed. That without it, the expression of other aspects of identity are difficult or impossible. So in the end, I felt as though you were trivializing dressing, in part by focusing on externalities, missing a more fundamental role, and then by enclosing that in a role point where women already have more expressive freedom.

On clothes: I don't exactly feel like I'm female when dressed. My appearance certainly doesn't scream "I'M A WOMAN" (far from it), nor am I really striving for that, as nice as it would be FOR the externalities. But there's a key that clicks something on when dressed that's noticeably missed when I'm not. Were it enabled by other means, I'd be more inclined to agree with you on superficialities. As things are now, it is not, and I don't.

On addiction: I'm generally inclined to agree with your view, especially when it tips into typically destructive behavior like spending oneself into financial oblivion. I'm also mindful that the forum includes people with CD behavior motives other than gender identity issues and for whom addictive behavior may play. For those whose CDing is tied to gender identity, I'd tread more carefully. It's certainly possible to be both addictive and have gender ID issues, but my first inclination would be to look for desperation rather than addiction.

Hopefully this clarifies where my questions were coming from.

Lea

[kendra_gurl]

If it is an addiction, it's one I don't want treatment for, besides, I don't think there's a twelve step program for us anyway.

That brings up a very good question.

Whether crossdressing is an addiction or a Compulsion or just a Hobby, could most of us non TG gurls stop if there was a 12 step support program to help us along the way?

Shananigans:: I also just don't agree with what was said originally that this is an "addiction" or something that is really negative. I don't agree that many people are putting it at the expense of their families.

I think you are forgetting that anyone who hides a behavior (such as crossdressing ) from their family is potentially putting their family at risk.

[Staci Roberts]

Regardless of the behavior, when the "activity" replaces responsibility, commitment or anything along those lines, there is a problem. More importantly, what is causing the drive to that behavior? Depression? Anger? Anxiety? etc. etc...We all, as humans, are wired that way. Keeping it all "in check" is the difficulty. If you dress, drink, smoke or whatever and enjoy the effects of the behavior, so be it. Who is anyone to judge? When it starts getting in the way and causes us to cloud right and wrong (for lack of a better phrase)..it is probably time to reel it in a bit..

[Ria]

Yeah it's addicting and we are all addicted. If you can't stop doing it then you're addicted... You can come up will all kinds of ways to dance around the issue and claim you're not addicted but in the end... we're addicted because the way it makes us feel inside and ouside- End of story. Doesn't mean it's a bad thing, but it could if you let it.

Too much of anything can make us neglect the important things. If you lock yourself in your house and neglect your family then you've tipped the scale and your happiness will suffer along with other elements of your life.

You can't just sit around and eat pizza all day long just because you love pizza! The scale will tip- big time.

That's my take

[LeaP]

I wonder (really) how many SO's would prefer suppression over their partner's health or even life. If there's a theme in this and related threads, it's self-sacrifice. I just wonder how many would take it to the literal, logical end. It's interesting that the many who can see the psychological urgency in TS identity issues have trouble extending it into the non-TS, TG realm. I.e., crossdressing, after all, is "just" crossdressing. It's selfish, it can be started and stopped like flipping a switch, it's superficial and external, it's an addiction (just like smoking!) etc. etc. etc.

Answering my own question, I bet a LOT of SO's would be willing take a hit to their partner's health "for the benefit of the relationship." And a few would indeed prefer the partner to drop dead.

Lea

[Shananigans]

Oh, Lea, you still don't believe me. You see that without dressing as a woman, there is little to no outward expression of my gender. I couldn't disagree with you more. To be a duck you might say it should look like a duck, walk like a duck, and talk like a duck. Whether I'm wearing a plastic bag or a miniskirt, I still look like a woman, talk like a woman (this goes into more than just pitch), and walk the life of a woman. My outward portrayal of my gender is very evident in my actions and manners. These things are who I am...a woman. If I left it up to fashion to help me define my gender, I'd be a confused person indeed. If the latest fad isn't suits, it's meat dresses and Christmas lights.

I understand that dressing means something very different to a CD, but to me gender is not related much at all to my dress. It's by chance that society deemed it socially acceptable for women to wear dresses and men pants. Chance and chance alone governs this. In animals, we may see the male more flamboyantly "dressed" to attract the attention of women and to give off cues about his health. How am I supposed to let dress be such a defining role in my gender identity when clothes are impermanent and could be easily changes in value tomorrow.

Again, I could be done with them tomorrow. I'd miss them...but, for reasons that are mainly not gender-related issues. What can't be taken away is how I carry myself, my attitude, the way I talk, and my presence. All of these things are apparently female because it is my identity and how I see myself internally and it's translated externally.

Now, is it so bad to CD or just to be a nice looking GG? Heck no! I love clothes! I can see the appeal of them to my SO. I imagine that out closet will continue to expand. However, neither of us is addicted. We don't have a problem. And, i feel like that's my main point. It doesn't matter what gender means to you or to me. Just because I don't see my gender as really dependent on my clothes, it doesn't mean someone is wrong if they do find it dependent. But, it would be sad we for some reason we all had to wear burlap sacks from now on. Id be mad because I like my cute clothes, but it wouldn't give me a gender identity crisis. Hope this made sense...I'm on my phone ugh

[stacycoral]

Addication that sounds pretty hard, maybe for some, i know i love to dress as a women have since i was a teenager, and i did stop for several years after getting married but i miss me, if i had to, it would be very hard to give it up, but i would try if it, the family could not handly it. Lucky my SO is ok as long i don't do it all the time, I would agree the longer i am dressed the longer i want to stay Stacy.

[ReineD]

It's interesting that the many who can see the psychological urgency in TS identity issues have trouble extending it into the non-TS, TG realm. I.e., crossdressing, after all, is "just" crossdressing. It's selfish, it can be started and stopped like flipping a switch, it's superficial and external, it's an addiction (just like smoking!) etc. etc. etc.

This is tangential to your discussion with Shannon, but I want to mention, it is the CDing husband's responsibility to educate his wife. A TS will reach a point where she feels no choice other than be who she is. There can no longer be compromise, which is unfortunate for her family if they are not on board with the transition or the living full-time, but it is what it is. They split up and move on with their lives. Of if the family is on board, they work through it.

But, many of the CDs who are having issues with their wives are NOT standing up to say, "this is a part of who I am and I need to express myself occasionally". Instead, many remain silent out of a desire to not rock the boat, and instead come here to post their frustrations. Heck, we have members here who are even reluctant to say they are transgender and they tell themselves and everyone the CDing is just something they DO, which perpetuates the idea that it is a choice. If these members are dressing openly in front of their wives and the CDing is just a pasttime for them that's fine, but it is not good to keep it a secret out of a reluctance to address the issue especially if it is more than just a hobby.

There are CDers who haven't reached the level of full self-acceptance and deep down they continue to feel guilty for putting their wives through having to be married to a CDer. So they are torn internally between feeling a need to dress and also agreeing with their wives' positions that it is bad to put a marriage through this. So, they suffer in silence, or hide while telling themselves there is no harm in engaging in a pastime their wives don't approve of, or they build resentments over having to repress themselves to the point where divorce looms a few years down the road.

And in the midst of this rat's nest of misunderstanding and strife, a popular coping mechanism is to escape in a fantasy world or give into some of the compulsive behaviors that can be associated with the CDing, which makes matters even worse on the home front. It's like trying to keep the dam from leaking with an index finger, or keep the lid on a ventless pressure cooker with a piece of tape.

It's difficult on everyone and the best solution in my opinion is to put all cards out on the table and get real. And then deal with the consequences ... like pulling a band-aid off quickly rather than prolonging the pain.

And by putting the cards on the table, I mean acknowledging to the Self and the Other that the CDing is a need and not a choice.

[DonniDarkness]

My name is Donni,
and i am addicted to Love.....


it is the CDing husband's responsibility to educate his wife.Being a cder in a marriage (10years in Dec.!) where i have been open about my gender expression (even though i did not really understand being TG then) i have come to understand that i have become -dependent- on my spouses love for me....the WHOLE ME. The only way i was able to become educated about Transgenderism was by working all these things out for myself, 8 years ago i had no education about who i really was inside i just knew i was different. So i started educating myself not really knowing where to start, except i knew that this was something i could not do without her love. My honesty to her early in our life together is what educated us both over time.

This thread talks about being addicted to CDing as in having a dependency...then uses street drug/financial analogies to back a terrible definition of addiction. Im not ok with this.
If one were to use the terms addicted and crossdressing it should be at least done in such a way that does not make us appear to be the dirge of society.......street drug users and financial abusers make an active mental -choice- when they exercise their -dependencies-....... Crossdressers who are TG are born with the needs we have there is no addiction in that.

The addiction comes from irresponsibility, dishonesty, and denial........and not on the -dependency- of your needs as a crossdresser...

Slightly Annoyed,
-Donni-

[Aprilrain]

street drug users and financial abusers make an active mental -choice- when they exercise their -dependencies-...... Crossdressers who are TG are born with the needs we have there is no addiction in that.

The addiction comes from irresponsibility, dishonesty, and denial........and not on the -dependency- of your needs as a crossdresser.

If its an addiction its NOT a choice. Over one hundred years of chemical addiction science out there and people still don't get it. This does not bode well for transgenderism!

I would say irresponsibility, dishonesty, and denial come from being addicted not the other way around

[Ria]

The addiction comes from irresponsibility, dishonesty, and denial........and not on the -dependency- of your needs as a crossdresser...


I can respect not comparing CDing to substance abuse or other dependencies. When we dig deeper into the issue it calls into question personal motives etc, and as such will bring about our other labels for our compulsion to CD such as self expression... but aren't we splitting hairs here? Can't we call it what it is?

If it's a desire to express, and the desire is compulsive, then isn't that a form of addiction? I suppose the words we use are just the "map" not the actual "territory". the meaning of "addiction" can mean different things to people. I guess I don't feel the need to differentiate the term addiction but I could see how it conjures up negative emotions to the term.

[Kittyagain]

some family's suck! just sayin.

Kittyagain as far as I can tell you are wrong about 90% of the time. My math might be a little off on that but its close enough.

Ouch! Ouch! Ouch Ouch!

I push myself to simplify. Lots of risk in being wrong but the end result of gaining knowledge is well worth the failures.

Kitty

[LeaP]

This is tangential to your discussion with Shannon, but I want to mention, it is the CDing husband's responsibility to educate his wife. A TS will reach a point where she feels no choice other than be who she is. There can no longer be compromise, which is unfortunate for her family if they are not on board with the transition or the living full-time, but it is what it is. They split up and move on with their lives. Of if the family is on board, they work through it.

But, many of the CDs who are having issues with their wives are NOT standing up to say, "this is a part of who I am and I need to express myself occasionally". Instead, many remain silent out of a desire to not rock the boat, and instead come here to post their frustrations. Heck, we have members here who are even reluctant to say they are transgender and they tell themselves and everyone the CDing is just something they DO, which perpetuates the idea that it is a choice. If these members are dressing openly in front of their wives and the CDing is just a pasttime for them that's fine, but it is not good to keep it a secret out of a reluctance to address the issue especially if it is more than just a hobby.

There are CDers who haven't reached the level of full self-acceptance and deep down they continue to feel guilty for putting their wives through having to be married to a CDer. So they are torn internally between feeling a need to dress and also agreeing with their wives' positions that it is bad to put a marriage through this. So, they suffer in silence, or hide while telling themselves there is no harm in engaging in a pastime their wives don't approve of, or they build resentments over having to repress themselves to the point where divorce looms a few years down the road.

And in the midst of this rat's nest of misunderstanding and strife, a popular coping mechanism is to escape in a fantasy world or give into some of the compulsive behaviors that can be associated with the CDing, which makes matters even worse on the home front. It's like trying to keep the dam from leaking with an index finger, or keep the lid on a ventless pressure cooker with a piece of tape.

It's difficult on everyone and the best solution in my opinion is to put all cards out on the table and get real. And then deal with the consequences ... like pulling a band-aid off quickly rather than prolonging the pain.

And by putting the cards on the table, I mean acknowledging to the Self and the Other that the CDing is a need and not a choice.

Yes, on every single point. Sorry to quote the entire post, but I think 100% of it is spot-on.

Lea

[DonniDarkness]

Addiction starts with a choice.

irresponsibility, dishonesty, and denial; can and are symptoms of mental/physical addiction. Addiction; as in the context of this thread and in most definitions; is something that starts with a -Choice- at some point. The shopping addict chooses to keep shopping despite the toll it is taking on their finances and denies the fact that they responsible for it. The drug user chooses to chase that next fix and denies the problems it causes in their lives. There is a choice there.

A dependency is not made by choice.

A dependency can be something you are born with, as in the way that people who are born with diabetes are dependent on insulin. None of us just up and out of the blue choose to be TG. There is internal feelings in each and every one of us that has always been there that makes us CD or Express Ourselves.

I find it disheartening that people in the community would find crossdressing a compulsive desire caused by addiction.

-Donni-

[LeaP]

Oh, Lea, you still don't believe me. You see that without dressing as a woman, there is little to no outward expression of my gender. I couldn't disagree with you more. To be a duck you might say it should look like a duck, walk like a duck, and talk like a duck. Whether I'm wearing a plastic bag or a miniskirt, I still look like a woman, talk like a woman (this goes into more than just pitch), and walk the life of a woman. My outward portrayal of my gender is very evident in my actions and manners. These things are who I am...a woman. If I left it up to fashion to help me define my gender, I'd be a confused person indeed. If the latest fad isn't suits, it's meat dresses and Christmas lights.

I understand that dressing means something very different to a CD, but to me gender is not related much at all to my dress. It's by chance that society deemed it socially acceptable for women to wear dresses and men pants. Chance and chance alone governs this. In animals, we may see the male more flamboyantly "dressed" to attract the attention of women and to give off cues about his health. How am I supposed to let dress be such a defining role in my gender identity when clothes are impermanent and could be easily changes in value tomorrow.

Again, I could be done with them tomorrow. I'd miss them...but, for reasons that are mainly not gender-related issues. What can't be taken away is how I carry myself, my attitude, the way I talk, and my presence. All of these things are apparently female because it is my identity and how I see myself internally and it's translated externally.



It's not a question of belief. We're still talking past one another. Basically you responded (this time, that is) with a list of other OUTWARD manifestations of your gender identity. Again, I was asking whether or not you could give up ALL outward expression, not just dressing. Of course dressing is (relatively) superficial to you - you presumably live a complete, integrated, female life.

The expression problem runs deeper than any one particular manifestation like dressing. When gender expression is suppressed, you never develop. Were you put in a position growing up where all outward female expression were not possible, your gender identity would still be firmly female - but you wouldn't actually have developed as a woman in any meaningful way. You wouldn't be capable of responding or acting in any kind of gender-coherent way. You'd be almost certain to manifest typical dysphoria symptoms. You'd feel female but wouldn't actually know what it was to BE female in the real world.

Crossdressing is a coping mechanism to resolve gender identity psychological pressure. It's also a psychological enabling mechanism - by putting female behavior in a female context, it relieves a male crossdresser of the conflict of manifesting the same behavior as a male. As such, it's not merely dress-up in the playacting sense, and it plays a different fundamental role than routine gender presentation does for a cisfemale. This is a psychological need or drive that's very different from addictive behavior (though, again, a crossdresser could complicate with that also).

Lea

[Shananigans]

You responded along dressing lines, then went into inner identity and nurturing. Two difficulties here: I asked if you would be able to forego ANY outward expression of your (feminine) identity. While nurturing is clearly something that exists at both gender poles, it is different for men. The question, in essence, is whether it is possible to BE something in any way at all that is meaningful if it has NO expression. The second point was on dressing itself. I grant that dressing is a limited expression. I grant, moreover, that it can be viewed as superficial in many ways. So I understand that aspect of your response. What you may not realize, however, is the enabling aspect of dressing, that it is an important vehicle for the identity that is suppressed. That without it, the expression of other aspects of identity are difficult or impossible. So in the end, I felt as though you were trivializing dressing, in part by focusing on externalities, missing a more fundamental role, and then by enclosing that in a role point where women already have more expressive freedom.

On clothes: I don't exactly feel like I'm female when dressed. My appearance certainly doesn't scream "I'M A WOMAN" (far from it), nor am I really striving for that, as nice as it would be FOR the externalities. But there's a key that clicks something on when dressed that's noticeably missed when I'm not. Were it enabled by other means, I'd be more inclined to agree with you on superficialities. As things are now, it is not, and I don't.

On addiction: I'm generally inclined to agree with your view, especially when it tips into typically destructive behavior like spending oneself into financial oblivion. I'm also mindful that the forum includes people with CD behavior motives other than gender identity issues and for whom addictive behavior may play. For those whose CDing is tied to gender identity, I'd tread more carefully. It's certainly possible to be both addictive and have gender ID issues, but my first inclination would be to look for desperation rather than addiction.

Hopefully this clarifies where my questions were coming from.

Lea

My last post just didn't seem to address what you said well, and so I figured I'd try a little better. I think I saw only 2 sentences of it on my phone for some reason. This is why I just need to do something else with my time between classes other than cruise the internet. ANYWAY!!! I still stand on my stance of outward portrayal of my gender that has nothing to do with my clothes (what I talked about in the post prior to this one). When you say this, "So in the end, I felt as though you were trivializing dressing, in part by focusing on externalities, missing a more fundamental role, and then by enclosing that in a role point where women already have more expressive freedom." I am a little confused. What I was arguing about was an internal nature of femininity. This internal nature definitely manifests outwardly with or without clothes (see prior post). The difference in my view and yours' is that mine has little to do with the superficialities. I can't say that I understand exactly what you are saying your CDing comes from, just as I am having a hard time expressing to you where my femininity comes from. They're really hard things to communicate aren't they? And, they are pretty much things that are individualized to each person. I think that with CDs the focus could be heavily on clothes simply because you may have the feminine things that I am talking about, but you aren't really allowed to express it. The obvious form of expression is usually dressing like a woman. However, for me, dressing doesn't seem like the obvious expression at all. Instead, I see feminine expression from other levels. At the same time, I was raised primarily by my grandmother who is Native American. Her ideas on feminine and masculine expression and "roles" are different from your typical Western view. (Even though it's still a "Western" view...we won't get into semantics. I feel like you know what I mean). As you can imagine, clothes take a very minimal role in the definition of masculine versus feminine in her culture. Therefore, my life experiences have me biased towards a certain view on what is masculine and what is feminine, just as you could be biased from a Western view of what is masculine and what is feminine. I don't mean to make clothing expression of gender into a trivial matter, because it is pretty important with our society. And, it's especially important for people who may have been denied the obvious outward feminine expression that is heralded by society. I can't say that these things don't also influence me on a great level, but going back to the family aspect...They (my family) has influenced me more. And, this probably has to do with differing views. I always find it interesting to hammer these things out though, because we all learn a lot from each other and about each other. I hope this answered you more appropriately and I apologize that my previous reply was only addressing maybe 1 or 2 sentences of your post :)

EDIT: Now, in response to your most recent post. Again, I don't really know what you mean by getting rid of all outward behavior. If I were to be paralyzed, had my mouth sewn up, and were unable to communicate at all...well, I don't know what I would be. I figured that your focus of outward expression was largely focused on clothes. I see my outward expressions as innate that come from something internal. In other words, they cannot be changed or modified. This is a quite different from CDing...so, I'm a little confused.

In your second paragraph, you appear to be alluding to transsexualism. I never deny that there aren't people who are TS. If I were to be thrown into a society where I was to wear an assigned uniform (unisex), was told to alter my natural female gait (yeah, it's based on pelvic structure), had my hormones repressed so that I could not go through natural processes that cause my feminine actions and certain behaviors, etc. etc. I might know I was female (?), but then wouldn't act female. (?) But, I don't really get it. I'm sorry. I could see a TS that was born male, but is mentally female. But, I feel like this person would have feminine actions and thoughts that would come naturally (being internally female). The difference is that they were told to suppress what was natural. This, again, is different than what your average CD is going through (and, the group that I was talking about). It would definitely be very confusing for a TS.

But, my point was that I could give up something "trivial" as dressing "like a girl" any day if it meant it or my family. It would of course be a completely different manner if I grew up in this world where all expression of my natural gender is not allowed. I couldn't say how I would act in that situation, because this world does not really exist for me. As far as I knew, a person that is "just CDing" still identifies internally as a male...and, therefore, if the "addiction" was CDing then it wouldn't really be a suppression of the male ego. It would be a suppression of the dressing.

I can see how CDing enables a CD to act out in a different gender more effectively. But, I still think that this has to go into how you are viewing femininity. It's hard to lump all CDs and people and say "this is what it is and this is why they do it...this is how they see femininity." I think there has to be a FEW people out there that could balance their expression of their feminine nature without ANY clothing involvement. I see this a lot with husbands that stay at home and help care for the kids. These men that I know are actually very feminine in their care and actions...and, how I have learned to identify feminine versus masculine roles. I'm not dismissing what you are saying, because I agree dressing in the opposite gender can definitely be a coping mechanism. But, it is inherent on how you see "feminine energy." To me (and I can't be the only one), it has little to do with dressing. Therefore, someone who may have the same need to express their feminine side may have the same needs as a CD, but go about it in a completely different way (because they see feminine expression as independent of society assigned clothing roles). This person may never CD because he is content with explorations that aren't really riding against society's outward portrayal of what we are (in terms of gender). Or, he may very well be a CD, but does not take the dressing to the extent of an addiction. It might be easy for such a CD not to dress as a woman if other expressions of the feminine energy were encouraged. But, this person would have to be a very different CD than ones you usually come across. But, I'm not going to say that they don't exist! It's all mostly individualistic.

Wow...that got really interesting. I have a lot to think about.

Interestingly enough, my grandmother's brothers are delightful people that have a great balance of both feminine and masculine energy. My grandmother has no idea what a CD is...so...this just isn't the case with them. However, they really do stress family, community, and equal care for each other. It's obvious who the women and men are, but the roles aren't quite as rigidly defined. Women are highly respected, as are feminine traits. I don't know if perspective that has been drilled from society really does have that profound of an effect, but it's an interesting thought. It's interesting to think about how a CD would behave if more feminine behavior were encouraged, if it were seen as a good thing. Focus may be less on clothes, but would the clothes till be as important?

[DonniDarkness]

I still think that this has to go into how you are viewing femininity.

That is a great part of your post Shan

I feel i view femininity differently too. Not all of us see femininity as a soft, frilly, emotion filled, mentality.


I think there has to be a FEW people out there that could balance their expression of their feminine nature without ANY clothing involvement. I see this a lot with husbands that stay at home and help care for the kids. These men that I know are actually very feminine in their care and actions...and, how I have learned to identify feminine versus masculine roles.

Gawd! i could hug you right now! What an awesome statement of an accepting perception.

-Donni-

[Shananigans]

That is a great part of your post Shan

I feel i view femininity differently too. Not all of us see femininity as a soft, frilly, emotion filled, mentality.



Gawd! i could hug you right now! What an awesome statement of an accepting perception.

-Donni-

Sorry I editted that post a million times!!! I was worried someone was reading it :)

I'm glad you liked it :hugs:

[Sandy Michaels]

i think it is an addiction, but so is coffee, alcohol, and tabaco pruducts. those things are sold everywhere. at least this addiction doesn't hurt anybody. i do get jittery when i have'nt dressed for few days. to the point where my best friend/co-worker-partner, will tell me to go home and put on a dress. when my attitude becomes a bit "bitchy'. but who cares, we girls don't huert anybody or ourselves when we dress. so just have fun and live life to the fullest.

[Vicktoria]

I know what you mean sandy, especially being bitchy after not dressing up for a while, i only get to dress once a month if im lucky due to working nights and living far from the town centre.
x
Vikki

[Celeste]

This thread is such great proof of how dressing has such a different meaning for all of us.I could never view it as addictive but rather something totally productive in my life ,adding meaning and insight.Smoking on the other hand will kill you,after 3 attempts at quitting and 36 years with them I've cast them aside,so there is a difference between productive and non productive addictive behavior.

[NicoleScott]

And so, we add "addiction" to the list of words we can't reach agreement on a definition, like
- crossdresser
- transvestite
- trangender
- female
- feminine
- gender
- sex

[Aprilrain]

And so, we add "addiction" to the list of words we can't reach agreement on a definition, like
- crossdresser
- transvestite
- trangender
- female
- feminine
- gender
- sex

JEEZ! we can't agree on the meaning of sex???? I thought that one was in the bag!

[kendra_gurl]

Even President Bill Clinton could not agree on exatly what SEX means :strugglin

[PretzelGirl]

I have to admit that I don't get these discussions about the meaning of a single word. This is why we have dictionaries. If you don't like the meaning, apply for it to be changed, but it is what it is so to speak.

[LeaP]

My last post just didn't seem to address what you said well, and so I figured I'd try a little better. I think I saw only 2 sentences of it on my phone for some reason. This is why I just need to do something else with my time between classes other than cruise the internet.… I still stand on my stance of outward portrayal of my gender that has nothing to do with my clothes (what I talked about in the post prior to this one). … What I was arguing about was an internal nature of femininity. This internal nature definitely manifests outwardly with or without clothes (see prior post). The difference in my view and yours' is that mine has little to do with the superficialities. I can't say that I understand exactly what you are saying your CDing comes from, just as I am having a hard time expressing to you where my femininity comes from. They're really hard things to communicate aren't they? And, they are pretty much things that are individualized to each person. I think that with CDs the focus could be heavily on clothes simply because you may have the feminine things that I am talking about, but you aren't really allowed to express it. The obvious form of expression is usually dressing like a woman. However, for me, dressing doesn't seem like the obvious expression at all. Instead, I see feminine expression from other levels. …

I agree with most of this, except that expression - as a whole - can't be regarded as superficial. I also believe one's sense of identity is inner, and that doesn't change with the outfit of the day. So, while you may regard any one manifestation of gender - of what you ARE - whether dress, speech, emotional expression, or anything else, as superficial, taken as a whole it's the realization of what you are. You, in the real world. Forbid it, suppress it, and you'll wind up suffering consequences. Suppress one aspect like dressing … no big deal, maybe not even noticeable. Suppress it all and you have a real-world problem, including consequences that penetrate to that inner self, conflict it, and twist it.

I don't fully accept that dressing isn't more than just obvious. I do accept that it may not be the obvious or important expression to you, of course, as we're individuals, but as I said in another thread regarding lingerie, there's an immense, worldwide industry entirely focused on women's fashion. Some cross dressers are primarily interested in fashion (I'm not). Others use it as a trigger to actualize inner feelings.


I hope this answered you more appropriately and I apologize that my previous reply was only addressing maybe 1 or 2 sentences of your post 


No worries. I appreciate your thoughtful responses and your reach for understanding. It's VERY hard to comprehensively answer some posts! (Like your last response!)


EDIT: Now, in response to your most recent post. Again, I don't really know what you mean by getting rid of all outward behavior. If I were to be paralyzed, had my mouth sewn up, and were unable to communicate at all...well, I don't know what I would be. I figured that your focus of outward expression was largely focused on clothes. …

In your second paragraph, you appear to be alluding to transsexualism. I never deny that there aren't people who are TS. If I were to be thrown into a society where I was to wear an assigned uniform (unisex), was told to alter my natural female gait (yeah, it's based on pelvic structure), had my hormones repressed so that I could not go through natural processes that cause my feminine actions and certain behaviors, etc. etc. I might know I was female (?), but then wouldn't act female. (?) But, I don't really get it. I'm sorry. I could see a TS that was born male, but is mentally female. But, I feel like this person would have feminine actions and thoughts that would come naturally (being internally female). The difference is that they were told to suppress what was natural. This, again, is different than what your average CD is going through (and, the group that I was talking about). It would definitely be very confusing for a TS.

My focus was not clothing, but clothing as one example of expression. Much else changes with a cross dresser's change of clothing: other aspects of appearance, of course (makeup, hair, etc.), nails, speech in a variety of ways, reactive behavior and personal interactions, activities, etc.

Your comment on transsexualism gave me pause, but gave me a clue as your thinking. Some do view cross dressing as part of a continuous spectrum, one end of which is TS identity. That's not what I believe, however (or at least that it doesn't apply to all cross dressers). I do believe that some of us have gender identities that are either female or have female aspects, though. This isn't unlike transsexual identity in some regards and, depending on degree, causes some of the same issues (I don't like to use "confusion"). So this indeed is exactly what many cross dressers go through.


But, my point was that I could give up something "trivial" as dressing "like a girl" any day if it meant it or my family. It would of course be a completely different manner if I grew up in this world where all expression of my natural gender is not allowed. I couldn't say how I would act in that situation, because this world does not really exist for me. As far as I knew, a person that is "just CDing" still identifies internally as a male...and, therefore, if the "addiction" was CDing then it wouldn't really be a suppression of the male ego. It would be a suppression of the dressing.

That's the thing … it's the everyday reality for cross dressers, at least those with fundamental identity issues. I theoretically agree to the "just CDing" bit, though I wonder at it. See other threads for raging controversies on same! Brilliant circular twist on addiction and suppression! This deserves a thread on its own. I.e., dressing itself must be its own identity issue, else suppressing it would not be an issue … unless for a given individual it IS an addiction!


I can see how CDing enables a CD to act out in a different gender more effectively. But, I still think that this has to go into how you are viewing femininity. It's hard to lump all CDs and people and say "this is what it is and this is why they do it...this is how they see femininity."

Almost right. I don't view femininity that way … really. For the purpose of identity, it doesn't matter to me how my wife dresses, for example. I would see her the same, regardless, as would she. Why dressing then? It goes back in part to your comments on what's obvious. It IS obvious, but don't conflate that with either its utility or finality. You went on to introduce the concept of "feminine energy". Many cross dressers do introduce all kinds of things into their daily lives that align with your concept. It doesn't invalidate the dressing. Outward things like dressing are very important, nonetheless, as people long to be, be seen, and live fully as they are. (hobbyists, et al, excluded) As for the cross dressers "you usually come across" … I can't say how many do it lightly versus those whose behavior is tied to identity, but I strongly suspect, based on what I've read in the medical literature as well as what I read on the forum itself, that more are in the latter camp.


Lea