crossdresser vs. women in pants

[lucaluca]

hey,

i read a lot of comments why women are allowed to wear pants, shirts (the typical male clothes) but men aren't allowed to do the same the other way round.

and there was one answer that was right on the one hand but totally wrong on the other hand. the answer was "because even if a woman wear pants etc. she doesn't pretend to be a man. she is just a woman in pants".
yeah that is right. a lot of crossdressers try to pass as a woman. they wear make up, wigs and try to have a feminine voice.

BUT!!!

what about those, who don't try to be woman? those men, who just wanna wear all the clothes they like. just like a woman that wants to wear pants, there are man who wants to wear dresses, skirts, etc.

i am one of those men, who just wants to wear whatever he wants. i don't question my gender. i am a man and i am happy about it, but for whatever reason, i am not the stereotypical man. i don't knwo why i want to wear this stuff and present myself in another way than the "normal" man, and i accepted the fact, that i (maybe) will never get an answer to that question, but who cares. a musician don't ask himself why he wants to make music :brolleyes:

i don't want to start a discussion why woman are allowed to wear pants and men aren't allowed to wear dresses.
i just wanted to say that the answer that (all) men try to pass as a woman is just plain wrong!

[celeste26]

I wear women's pants so is that cross dressing or not under your explanation?

[lucaluca]

i don't know :o

with reference to the label it is crossdrssing. i personally don't think that it is crossdressing, because pants are pants.

[JulieK1980]

If this was 1950 then perhaps the argument that women wearing pants is crossdressing would hold weight. However, this is 2011, and pants aren't just "men's" clothes. They are also "women's" clothes.

Of course some men that want to wear women's clothes aren't doing it to "crossdress," However, wearing the clothes of the opposite sex is by definition crossdressing. To change that, you have to change what society deems the clothes of the gender. I.E. It will no longer be crossdressing if skirts become a part of typical men's wardrobe.

It's not the clothing itself that defines what is crossdressing, styles change, and evolve. However, if you wear the clothes that are currently meant for the opposite sex, then it IS crossdressing.

[Annajose]

I fully agree with the idea of wearing skirts, heels, makeup, etc as a man. I would never pass as a woman and I am perfectly happy to be a man, but wearing whatever feels like on any day woud be great. Probably is a matter of time. Can hardly wait.

[Stephenie S]

I have told this story many times. Perhaps it bears repeating.

I have only seen this gentleman in our local Barnes and Noble bookstore, but he must interact elsewhere. He is tall, has a full bushy beard, wears a checked lumberjack flannel shirt, a leather vest, lace up work boots, and the cutest wool navy blue pleated skirt. Does anyone pay him any mind? No, not a one. (well I registered his clothing, but only because I have seen him more than once). He is wearing what he wants. NO ONE gives a sweet flying patootie.

As a man, you CAN wear whatever you want. But you have to be willing to own it. We have several men on this very forum who make NO attempt to appear feminine. They just want to wear feminine clothes. It works for them and it could work for you. So put on your big girl panties and take responsibility for yourself.

S

[Jonianne]

.....However, if you wear the clothes that are currently meant for the opposite sex, then it IS crossdressing.

I disagree. I hold that a real understanding of crossdressing has to be deeper than just the wearing of certain cloths. A Navy seal, in the jungles who wears pantyhose while wading through the swamps in S. America (I know one that would get his wife to buy plenty of them for all the seals in his group in the early 80's) in order to keep the itty-bitty swamp creatures from going where they don't belong, is not crossdressing as we understand it.

Crossdressing has to have another factor such as; cd'ing for the fun of it, as in a show, or for fetish reasons or for opposite gender identity reasons. None of which women did, back in the 50's or now (for the most part).

I agree that if someone wears cloths that are primarly for the opposite sex, but is useful for practical reasons, that should not be considered crossdressing at all. However if I see a male, presenting as a male, walking through the mall in a miniskirt, fishnet stockings, and 5 inch heels, I am going to assume he is a fetish crossdresser, probably with a good degree of accuracy.


hey,

i read a lot of comments why women are allowed to wear pants, shirts (the typical male clothes) but men aren't allowed to do the same the other way round.


.....As a man, you CAN wear whatever you want. But you have to be willing to own it. We have several men on this very forum who make NO attempt to appear feminine. They just want to wear feminine clothes. It works for them and it could work for you. So put on your big girl panties and take responsibility for yourself.....

Stephenie, you are exactly right. You CAN wear what you want, you just have to own it.

[Misti]

When I figure all this out for myself, I'll let you know. Meanwhile back at the ranch, life goes on as usual in my feminine garb...
Best of luck, Luca...

[Pythos]

I am at the point that crossdresseing per se, when it comes to myself is when all of these criterion are met.

1) I wear padded items that give my body a feminine appearance (breastforms, hip pads, ect)

2) I tuck my equipment to give a feminine appearing flat frontal area of the lower torso.

3) I take on a female persona.

Everything else...clothing, hair, makeup, to me is not inherently feminine. I have had what I do likened to when a women chooses to wear a unisex or butch style hair style, wear what was once considered masculine styled clothing, and choose to not wear makeup. I am pretty much the polar opposite.

Yes my mannerisms may be "softer" but at the goth clubs I am known and addressed as male. My girlfriend openly introduces me as her "boyfriend", even when I am fully decked out. (that is overly awesome to tell you the truth)

I do find it highly unfair and at times dubious that even when I wear leggings as a male (no makeup, no wigs), I am still referred to as cross dressing by certain people.

I think what really needs to be done is for the term "crossdresser" to lose its negative aspects, and the only way that can happen is for us to get out and open a hell of a lot more than we do. Easier said than done I know.

[suegsusan]

You raise a great point for discussion. I have been crossdressing for many years. For most of those years I wore makeup, a wig, breast forms etc to try to make me look like a woman. Eventually I accepted what I knew all the time, that no matter how hard I try, I will never convince anyone that I am a woman. But I still want to wear skirts instead of pants because I enjoy wearing skirts, and perhaps because it is a recognition of the feminine part of me that is real, despite the fact that I am fully content to be a man. So I've now given up the make up and the wigs. But I still wear skirts at home. I would just love to go to church on Sunday with my wife and with both of us wearing skirts, even though every other part of my body procalaims that I am a man. So why don't I go to church in a skirt tomorrow? I'm ashamed to say that the only reason is that I'm afraid of what people will think of me. I wish I wasn't so weak in this respect, but at my age I don't think I'll ever get over it, so I content myself with wearing my skirts at home.

[Rachel Lea]

I would just love to go to church on Sunday with my wife and with both of us wearing skirts, even though every other part of my body procalaims that I am a man. So why don't I go to church in a skirt tomorrow? I'm ashamed to say that the only reason is that I'm afraid of what people will think of me.

I think this is the biggest reason that we can not wear what we want, (afraid of what people will think). When women first started wearing blue jeans when there were NO jeans made for them, they went into the men's department and purchased what would fit. Women have more balls than us boys.

It won't change until we go in and purchase what we want to wear and then wear it out like normal. That being said, I am afraid

[BillieLynne]

Yeah, I have three in my left and two in my right. For twenty years now, can have many combinations or just one at a time.
Billie

[Karren H]

Obviously you don't have the latest copy of the crossdressers rule book? Chapter 4... Page 53. "Wear what ever the F#*k you want.... Where ever you want". Your the only one stopping you from wearing a dress!

[Gillian Gigs]

Stephenie says,"As a man, you CAN wear whatever you want. But you have to be willing to own it. We have several men on this very forum who make NO attempt to appear feminine. They just want to wear feminine clothes. It works for them and it could work for you. So put on your big girl panties and take responsibility for yourself".
I agree, but the problem is that we live with the fear of what others will think, say, or do as a result of our activities. I have no desire to pass, or try to, but to wear the clothes is totally different. I have found it easier to underdress and get some form of compromise that will give me some happiness without the hassle of the exposure. Would I like to wear a pretty blouse, skirt, and pantyhose while walking down the street, you bet I would. Why don't I, fear of man, fear of loosing reputation, ridicule, and so on. So call me chicken, I compromise and underdress. Is this why so many of us travel to other cities, get make overs and go out after getting fixed up, because no one knows us there?
Some of us are TG, some TS, Some fetish dressers, and others just enjoy it as a hobby, we just want the freedom to be ourselves whatever the reason for dressing.

[Leilani]

This may not be a popular point but I also think that a reason men are more bothered by what others in our cirlce think of us on this issue is that we are expected to be the main financial providers for the family. Sorry if that offends people but it is the reality. As such, while a woman back in the day risked only getting fewer dates or the scorn of some of the people where she lived she was not in danger of losing her livelihood for the most part. For her to wear pants, the risk was mainly personal. Men however, face the prospect of not not getting promotions or raises or in some cases losing their jobs. This will not only affect them but also their wives and children. To present as a man in a dress/skirt/blouse what have you does not only have ramifications for the dresser but also for those who depend on him as a provider. I can deal with people seeing me how they want but what if people I deal with in business see me out and about dressed distictly feminine? There is always the chance that if they see me as deranged they may say "that is someone I am not comfortable handing my money to" or some other such consideration depending on the business. I have no studies to back this up but I believe that is why men who are out with their dressing in public as men in women's clothing TEND to have lower status jobs or jobs where they do not interact with the public or jobs in the TG market. I firmly believe there are a lot of men with high powered jobs who do this sort of thing or have the desire to do so, but with so much more at risk they feel it is just not worth what they may lose. As such, the wigs, makeup etc... will provide a further disguise and ensure less chance of being discovered. I know that all people are different, in their reasons for dressing and trying to pass, and I am generalising but I think, in general, this is probably more true than untrue. But I have no studies to back me up so I could be wrong. Just my opinion.

[Bluesman]

I have told this story many times. Perhaps it bears repeating.

I have only seen this gentleman in our local Barnes and Noble bookstore, but he must interact elsewhere. He is tall, has a full bushy beard, wears a checked lumberjack flannel shirt, a leather vest, lace up work boots, and the cutest wool navy blue pleated skirt. Does anyone pay him any mind? No, not a one. (well I registered his clothing, but only because I have seen him more than once). He is wearing what he wants. NO ONE gives a sweet flying patootie.

S

Sounds more like a Scotsman in a kilt to me, lassie. :-)

[Sister Rachel]

Agree 100%, lucaluca, a nail succinctly struck on the head :)

[Launa]

All I know is the more I get dressed like a woman the higher I feel and that includes doing all the small trimmings like earings and perfume. If I can pass then that would be wicked, I can't see anything wrong with that.

[Pythos]

Well, I was just looking outside my window when I saw a couple walking to a house across the street. We will not go into detail of what the guy was wearing, but lets just say it was mundane and typical. However his girl....mundane as his. She was wearing loose fitting blue jeans, a sweat shirt top, boots, no makeup, and short hair, no attempt was made to hide her body shape. She is completely acceptable to society's eyes.

What I do is the exact opposite. I wear the clothing, hair styles (well the goth or punk variety of said), and makeup, make no modifications to my shape except when I wear a waist cincher, and I wear heels. I act like me, which is amorphous between the genders, but never over the top.

My style for too many is shunned, detested and is an object of hate.

Now why is that girl I saw accepted, but I am not? I do not try to act or even pass as a woman, I just am. Just like the girl I saw with her boyfriend walking across my street not but a few minutes ago.

The answer is that women gained the right by getting out there. They asked no-one's permission. That is what we all have to do. I am slowly changing minds but no where near as quickly as I can, and living with my mother has put roadblocks up.

[Crysten]

I own more pairs of womens pants than mens pants. .. a lot more ... and I wear them constantly. Not sure what the big deal is. Just normal for me I guess. Is it crossdressing? Well yes in that I AM wearing womens clothing, and no because I'm in no way attempting to pass or appear as a woman. So.....whatever. Symantics, it is whatever it is. What I would really like to know is why people want/need to define it or explain it. Each one of us has a different approach for different reason resulting in widely varied outcomes. We're all just doing our own thing in our own way, and thats a good enough explanatoin for me.

[annecwesley]

i am one of those men, who just wants to wear whatever he wants. i don't question my gender. i am a man and i am happy about it, but for whatever reason, i am not the stereotypical man. i don't knwo why i want to wear this stuff and present myself in another way than the "normal" man, and i accepted the fact, that i (maybe) will never get an answer to that question, but who cares. a musician don't ask himself why he wants to make music :brolleyes:

i don't want to start a discussion why woman are allowed to wear pants and men aren't allowed to wear dresses.
i just wanted to say that the answer that (all) men try to pass as a woman is just plain wrong!

Over the past couple years I've been experimenting with the "guy in a skirt" mode. It does not draw a lot of attention (smirks, comments, etc.) when the outfit is masculine, ie a kilt or kilt-like, but moving toward feminine styleing is challenging. I took some heat on this forum when I posted on the topic "man in a skirt", and I took a couple hard comments posting some pictures on a men in skirts discussion group forum where I was wearing something other than a skirt from "the other side".

I've often wondered if one of the reasons why some CDs want to pass and go for the makeup, wig and other feminizing enhancements is in order to be able to enjoy women's clothing in public without being so conspicuous. I know if I could I would shave off my beard, get made up and in this way disguise myself as a woman in order to enjoy fashion freedom.

Society is becoming more tolerant of transgendered people, but is still a long way from accepting a bearded man in a dress, stockings and heels.

[karren G]

Eddie issard is fancyed buy many women and they don't think its wrong of him , and what about prince the pop singerhis shirts etc, and dare i say it david bowie ! And adum ant & mick jager back in the 70's - dare i go on . Some women like men that dresslike women in this
mutly cultrural sociaty we live in we should all be alloweed to dress as we see our self as inside, thats my five pence worth on the subject for what's it's worth.

[justbejulie2]

I'm on the "I'm a man who simply and solely loves the look and feel of woman's clothing". For all the usual reasons I just underdress, even though I've taken to openly wearing ladies tank tops, as I can't really see that men's and woman's are distinguishable. And right now I'm wearing a gourgeous cowl-neck top which looks great on me, and skirt/hose. I would LOVE to wear the sweater to work. The fact that it looks good on my slim tall figure should be enough. But I would be taunted/rejected/fired. So unfair. So most days it's just "what panties today?". I need make sure though that my kids don't get involved when I'm doing laundry. LOL.

[jillleanne]

hey,

i read a lot of comments why women are allowed to wear pants, shirts (the typical male clothes) but men aren't allowed to do the same the other way round.

and there was one answer that was right on the one hand but totally wrong on the other hand. the answer was "because even if a woman wear pants etc. she doesn't pretend to be a man. she is just a woman in pants".
yeah that is right. a lot of crossdressers try to pass as a woman. they wear make up, wigs and try to have a feminine voice.

BUT!!!

what about those, who don't try to be woman? those men, who just wanna wear all the clothes they like. just like a woman that wants to wear pants, there are man who wants to wear dresses, skirts, etc.

i am one of those men, who just wants to wear whatever he wants. i don't question my gender. i am a man and i am happy about it, but for whatever reason, i am not the stereotypical man. i don't knwo why i want to wear this stuff and present myself in another way than the "normal" man, and i accepted the fact, that i (maybe) will never get an answer to that question, but who cares. a musician don't ask himself why he wants to make music :brolleyes:

i don't want to start a discussion why woman are allowed to wear pants and men aren't allowed to wear dresses.
i just wanted to say that the answer that (all) men try to pass as a woman is just plain wrong!

There is no such thing as " men are not allowed to wear women's pants ". Men can wear grass hula skirts to church if they want. Women wear what they want and men can also once they get past the male ego, the male superiority complex, the male control over social behaviour, the male fear, the male embarrasement, the male list goes on. If you want to wear a dress, wear it. There is absolutely nothing stopping you except your male you, period. There are no laws in the western woorld at least, preventing you from wearing whatever you want so I fail to see the problem.
There are exceptions to every rule if you will, and the fact that almost all men who wear womens clothing consider themselves attempting to pass as a female to varying degrees and for different reasons is a reality and as such, is taken as a norm. If you are such a person that wears clothing normally associated with the opposite birth gender for 'no other reason' than because you can, not sexual, not emotional( women do not get sexually aroused nor emotional wearing mens pants), then you would be considered as an exception to the rule, which in itself, is fine. No one should care one way or the other. That would however, make me ponder to question however, why would you consider yourself a crossdresser and why would you be here on forums such as this one which by its very nature, caters to people that get some emotional pleasure from expressing their feminine attributes to whatever degree?
We should also clear up the fact that anyone wearing a kilt, belt and pouch, etc., and I really do not care if you are Asian or Scottish or whatever, you are not crossdressing, you are not expressing any feminine characteristics, and are not even near attempting to do so. A kilt has long been accepted by the world over as a form of dress by certain men, just as turbans are.

[Pamela Kay]

Obviously you don't have the latest copy of the crossdressers rule book? Chapter 4... Page 53. "Wear what ever the F#*k you want.... Where ever you want". Your the only one stopping you from wearing a dress!

Of course Karren's version has a footnote banning the wearing of jeans under penalty of revocation of your CD card. :heehee:

[Vieja]

I don't really care who wears what but I dream about the days when all girls and women wore dresses and I would watch and hope for a friendly breeze to ruffle their skirts.


Vieja

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Over the past couple years I've been experimenting with the "guy in a skirt" mode. It does not draw a lot of attention (smirks, comments, etc.) when the outfit is masculine, ie a kilt or kilt-like, but moving toward feminine styleing is challenging. I took some heat on this forum when I posted on the topic "man in a skirt", and I took a couple hard comments posting some pictures on a men in skirts discussion group forum where I was wearing something other than a skirt from "the other side".

I know what you mean, I used to post on some of those men in skirts forums, but I got tired of how for a group advocating the expansion of the male wardrobe, they seemed too willing to tie themselves down to a very specific set of clothes and looks they would approve of men wearing. I actually got moderation against me on one of the boards for daring to discuss the idea of men wearing women's jeans.


I've often wondered if one of the reasons why some CDs want to pass and go for the makeup, wig and other feminizing enhancements is in order to be able to enjoy women's clothing in public without being so conspicuous. I know if I could I would shave off my beard, get made up and in this way disguise myself as a woman in order to enjoy fashion freedom.

I know what you mean, I do sometimes wish I was more passable as a woman, but not because I want to present as a woman but rather because I want to just wear the stuff I want without sticking out all the time. But for me, even when I'm in "girl mode" I still pretty much stick out as a guy in a dress, so I stick with guy in a skirt looks because I figure if I'm going to be so readable, I just want to wear the stuff I want and not all the extra stuff I don't need, like wigs or padding to disguise myself.

I actually am growing my hair out a little bit, the first time since I was 19 that I've tried to have longer hair, just to see if I can get a little more androgynous a look so that I don't stand out *quite* so much when I wear more feminine clothing and makeup. I don't think people will ever not recognize that I'm male, and I'm ok with that, but I think maybe I'll be able to mingle easier.

*sidenote, I also have a theory that a lot of the CD folks who do have the female persona that they prefer to present as developed this because of the fact that wearing women's clothes by men was so frowned upon growing up that they sort of compartmentalized it into the female sub-personality.