This might make the GGs mad but...

[Badtranny]

Those who know me know I love women. I've always loved them and always related to them. My best friends are women and at work my Dept has the first and only female PM in the company. In my humble opinion, there is nothing a man can do that a woman can't do better except lift heavy stuff.

Because I identify with my sisters, I refuse to patronize them or treat them like they are fragile or helpless. I only wish that some of the GGs that populate this board would feel the same way about us lowly TS broads.

Somebody just posted in another thread that as women they might have something to teach us about what men want. That statement is patently ridiculous. No offense but what in the world is a genetic woman going to teach me about men? That would be like me saying I could teach her something about women. I have spent my whole life being socialized as a man and in fact, trying like hell to be one and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I know exactly what men want.

There's a patronizing attitude toward us on this board that really bugs me sometimes. If my best friend told me she was meeting a guy, which she does on occasion, I would never tell her to "be careful". She is a 40 year old mother of three and she knows how to be careful. Sometimes we talk about what we should and shouldn't do even if we might want to, but we tend to treat each other like grown women and not teenage girls. When I tell her I'm meeting someone, she might ask how I met him, where I met him, what are we doing, is he cute, what's he do, yadda yadda yadda, but she wouldn't tell me to be careful, or be safe, or whatever. She might say don't do anything I wouldn't do, or call me if you need me, or text me in an hour, or any number of things but she knows I've been around the block once or twice and she also knows that I'm not a delicate flower.

We do look out for each other because we love each other, but we also respect each other.

[Aprilrain]

AMEN SISTER! I have not had any woman that I know in person treat me this way. Only on this site have I heard things like "pre ops should not date!" and "TS are at such a high risk for STD's that they should not date!"

[Bree-asaurus]

AMEN SISTER! I have not had any woman that I know in person treat me this way. Only on this site have I heard things like "pre ops should not date!" and "TS are at such a high risk for STD's that they should not date!"

Anyone who says that is full of shit. Why the hell shouldn't we date? Maybe they're just too scared so they try to force their fears on everyone else...

And the people at risk for STDs are the morons that don't know how to use protection. That goes for any group.

I am in love and happily STD free thanks to NOT irrationally giving up on a major part of life just because I'm trans and pre-op.

[Rianna Humble]

I have spent my whole life being socialized as a man and in fact, trying like hell to be one and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I know exactly what men want.

Hats off to you. I too have spent my whole life being socialised as a man and trying to act like one, but I have never understood what men want.

[JulieK1980]

I'm fairly certain I know where this thread was sparked, and I can see how it came across as patronizing. However, I really don't think it was the intent, and to be fair there are things we can all learn from each other. I strongly suspect it was a miscommunication partly because the post in question wasn't written very well, and partly because emotion and tone are often lost on boards like this one.

I could be wrong, but I think it was someone expressing concern, and urging caution. I don't think it was meant to be pretentious (although I admit it did read as though it was pretentious.)

As a group though, we ARE at a higher risk for contracting STD's. BUT and this is a BIG but, there are other more important risk factors than being trans. Even if the group as a whole has a massively high risk, if YOU practice common sense and safety with regards to sex, than YOU are at the same risk as anyone else. We don't catch diseases (obviously) just because we are trans, it's just that many trans people catch them because as a group we are more likely to engage in risky behaviors.

[Bree-asaurus]

Hats off to you. I too have spent my whole life being socialised as a man and trying to act like one, but I have never understood what men want.

Same here.... I know pretty friggin well how to act like a man, but I'll be damned if I understand them or why they act the way they do.

[Zenith]

Ummmm we do have to be careful. As a man I was used to going where I want, whatever part of day or night, alone. You just can't do that as a woman. That is an adjustment. It's not how it should be it is how it is. And dating as a post-op you have to be very careful to disclose in a public place. Some of us have been beaten or murdered for doing this in private. Look at the TDR (Transgender Day of Remembrance) list. I admit that I have a lot to learn about dating and being a woman, and I sure value the advice of my GG friends, it's actually priceless. Because they have seen it from the side I am on now...

[Badtranny]

Hats off to you. I too have spent my whole life being socialised as a man and trying to act like one, but I have never understood what men want.

They just want love Rianna, that's all. ;-)

[Debglam]

Those who know me know I love women. I've always loved them and always related to them. My best friends are women and at work. . .Because I identify with my sisters, I refuse to patronize them or treat them like they are fragile or helpless. I only wish that some of the GGs that populate this board would feel the same way about us lowly TS broads.

Hey Melissa,

Me too. BUT, make sure you are not confusing concern with patronizing. I can tell you as a parent of two daughters I have the habit (good or bad) of looking out for the women in my life, including my friends. It has nothing to do with their skill or ability - it is concern based on love. Believe me, when I remind a 40+ year old woman to wear her bicycle helmet, I expect an eye roll but I'm gonna say it anyway! :battingeyelashes:

Now be careful! :heehee:

Debby

[Badtranny]

Ummmm we do have to be careful. As a man I was used to going where I want, whatever part of day or night, alone. You just can't do that as a woman. It's not how it should be it is how it is. And dating as a post-op you have to be very careful to disclose in a public place. Some of us have been beaten or murdered for doing this in private. Look at the TDR (Transgender Day of Remembrance) list. I admit that I have a lot to learn about dating and being a woman, and I sure value the advice of my GG friends, it's actually priceless. Because they have seen it from the side I am on now...

So we don't have common sense? I wasn't a very imposing guy so I never went anywhere I wasn't comfortable anyway. Also, I never said I didn't value the advice of my GG friends. I spend pretty much all of my off work time with women because my roomie is a GG and my bestie is a GG and my electrologist is a GG, and so on. We talk ALL the time about everything, and I love and value their perspective. The difference between here and my life is they don't treat me like I'm a new born. The HRT might make me a bad driver but it doesn't make me an idiot.

[SandraAbsent]

I will be "pre-op" for the rest of my life, guess that makes me a "non-op." Not by choice of course, but thats a whole story you can all take up with my doctors. Does this mean I should never date? Considering I date women, and yes my part stays nicely tucked away, how would I be a greater risk of STD? You see these are the details some people don't take into consideration when questioning me down on my life. Of course if I offer up my life for comment in an internet forum, I leave myself open for comment whether I like it or not. Moral of the story? You cant post something on the internet and expect to get a response you like 100% of the time. On the other hand, if you claim to be a supporter...be supportive. If you truly accept me as a woman, than treat me like a woman. I cannot stand pseudo support. But its to be expected in a public internet venue like this.

For the record, all of you are so addorable, I will love you and squeeze you, kiss you, hold you and call you George. Well maybe not George, just a bad Disney reference.

[Aprilrain]

Ummmm we do have to be careful. As a man I was used to going where I want, whatever part of day or night, alone. You just can't do that as a woman. That is an adjustment. It's not how it should be it is how it is. And dating as a post-op you have to be very careful to disclose in a public place. Some of us have been beaten or murdered for doing this in private. Look at the TDR (Transgender Day of Remembrance) list. I admit that I have a lot to learn about dating and being a woman, and I sure value the advice of my GG friends, it's actually priceless. Because they have seen it from the side I am on now...

You are absolutely right Zenith however the risks that females face in the dating game and that TS face in general isn't the point of the thread. The point was that we KNOW we need to be careful and do not need to be treated like we are 3 because we are TS. Some times I feel like people assume I "just fell off the banana boat" because I am in transition. I HAVE been paying attention for the last 35 years! Unlike some who chose to sequester themselves away like princesses in a high tower I DID participate in the dating and LIFE game before I started transition and learned a few things along the way!

[Badtranny]

For the record, all of you are so addorable, I will love you and squeeze you, kiss you, hold you and call you George. Well maybe not George, just a bad Disney reference.

No silly, that's a Looney Tunes reference. That big Abominable Snowman was always wanting to call something George as he squeezed the crap out of it. Sometimes it was Daffy, sometimes it was Bugs. Hysterical. I laughed everytime.

[SandraAbsent]

I stand corrected, thanks for the woman to woman advice!

[TxKimberly]

Hey BT,

Me too. BUT, make sure you are not confusing concern with patronizing. I can tell you as a parent of two daughters I have the habit (good or bad) of looking out for the women in my life, including my friends. It has nothing to do with their skill or ability - it is concern based on love. Believe me, when I remind a 40+ year old woman to wear her bicycle helmet, I expect an eye roll but I'm gonna say it anyway! :battingeyelashes:

Now be careful! :heehee:

Debby


Yep, what she said! It is completely normal for someone that cares about you to offer advice along those lines. In my opinion, it comes down to intent - if they are intentionally being belittling, then they can sod off, but if their concern is real, and their intentions are kind, then it hardly seems fair to flame them for it.

[Zenith]

So we don't have common sense? I wasn't a very imposing guy so I never went anywhere I wasn't comfortable anyway. Also, I never said I didn't value the advice of my GG friends. I spend pretty much all of my off work time with women because my roomie is a GG and my bestie is a GG and my electrologist is a GG, and so on. We talk ALL the time about everything, and I love and value their perspective. The difference between here and my life is they don't treat me like I'm a new born. The HRT might make me a bad driver but it doesn't make me an idiot.

You don't understand that the vast majority of rapes are committed by males against females? How long have you had to deal with that issue up close in person? A year or two maybe? Sounds like a newborn. I'm not so arrogant I don't realize that I have a lot to learn. But that's just me...

[Babeba]

I have to admit that you got me, Melissa! I'm just SO MAD that you have a realistic view of women, and don't put us up on some insane and demeaning pedestal and expect for us to stay there! :heehee:

I agree with you, that some of us GGs (those of us who have experience with CDers, not necessarily TS folk?) at times don't quite get the way things are different between a GG, a transwoman, and a CD. I'm sorry that it comes across as patronizing. I think that this isn't always (or even mostly) deliberate. I'm not defending any implication that a specific pre-op or no-op TS is likely to get an STD for flirting/dating, because I know that most of you are smart, tough women. I haven't read the post about teaching tgirls about what men want, so I can't comment on that one - but the one you were referring to with meeting up I can kind of understand. It really DOES come from a place more of caring, I swear!

See, the thing is that for many of us who are involved with crossdressers - especially ones who don't go out in public all the time - there are a few facts of female life that they just. Don't. Get. Female vulnerability is one of them! On the other hand, the crossdresser who spends a lot of time in public dressed, and the transwoman who is fulltime gets the picture a little (lot) better; they are much more likely to have the level of situational awareness that a lot of adult women have, especially the ones who end up walking alone after dark or in more remote areas for instance. However, there's still the tendency to speak from the perspective you're more familiar with.

Melissa, let's say your best friend who you know is able to take care of herself and is usually levelheaded had met someone and was excited (so you were excited for her) - you talked about how they met, and what they're planning to do for their date, and you kind of got the sort of vibe that something might not be all that safe - would you say something? My guess is that the answer is probably. You wouldn't jump to the conclusion right away that she was planning something a wee bit dangerous, but if your spidey senses started tingling, would you probe a little further and maybe try and warn her about why it wasn't the best plan? What if the worst case scenario happened and you DIDN'T say anything - how would you feel then?

If it was a friend you didn't know so well, and didn't think had a lot of experience in dating, would you be more likely to be concerned and say something?

Those of us in our early-to-mid twenties really have had the whole online dating safety manual drilled into us and one of those bits is to make sure that your friends (even if they're online ones) know they should be safe.

[Zenith]

After I was released from the hospital in Trinidad, I went to the supermarket to get some food. I never felt so vulnerable in my entire life as the first day out with a vagina. It's a major reality check to know that you can face the same kind of aggression as a GG. You have to adjust your view...not be afraid to live your life but learn to be careful. I'm sorry but no amount of time as pre-op prepared me for that.

[kellycan27]

Guilty as charged! When ever I talk to my friends I almost always end the conversation with be careful or be safe. It's not because I think that they are reckless or ignorant of the pitfalls that they may encounter, but more in the way as a term of endearment, just another way of saying "I love you", or "I care about you". I say it to my 6'3" 220 pound husband when he leaves the house or at the end of a phone conversation, who played college football and was a pretty fair boxer as well. He's a very intelligent man who knows how to handle himself.
Misty.. you know my story. I am pretty careful and have some pretty good common sense, but it only takes an instant or forgetfulness or a single chance of being in the wrong place at the right time to end up in a world of shit, especially for a girl.

Kelly

[AllieSF]

I am in agreement with you, Melissa, about the fact that most of us here, CD's like me to TS's like you, and including all the rest are well above the age of majority and should have enough common sense to not put themselves in a very risky situation without going into it recognizing that fact and maintaining wide open eyes, ears, nose and all the rest of the senses on high alert. I call all that maturity, experience and situational awareness, and when coupled with street smarts should get one through the moment.

I also agree with Babeba (great name by the way) in that when our own antenna pop up based on what we hear and know about the speaker, it is only natural to offer a kind word of caution. The key is "kind" and not condescending or preaching. Sometimes we may prefer to error on the side of caution and concern for someone and offer the "be careful" words more than needed. I think that occurs frequently on this site. Then there are some posts, maybe the ones that you are referencing, that do go over the top, to the point of being argumentative and holier and smarter than thou.

All that being said, I think that what some of us see here in some posts is that the OP in their maybe new and somewhat naive enthusiasm and rush to do something feminine, or masculine for our FtM brothers, may not be considering all the other aspects of new meet up. They may be in that pink or blue fog and their common sense may be overshadowed and overpowered by their desire to have a successful meet up, whatever that means to them. Additionally, the writer of those innocent and excited words may not be someone who we know well from their limited posts. In those cases, I might feel that their words are very naive and made in that moment of telling the world (our dear members here) of their upcoming special occasion and maybe milestone in their TG development. I then have no problem celebrating the upcoming event with them and also suggesting that they be careful with all that word can mean. I also believe that in the literal heat and heightened excitement of the moment, even the most conservative and careful person (TG or not), may just throw some of their common sense and caution to the wind in anticipation of that much sought after but sometimes not often found sensual climax. Just look at all the young girls and sometimes mature women who get themselves pregnant, or the men who contract some STD, just because of that reason, caution understood but not taken. So, for me, as long as the warnings are simple and straight forward and not over the top, I can live with reading those replying posts in these types of threads. Melissa, I know you enough to understand that you know what you are doing. However, if for whatever reason a red flag pops up during a conversation with you, I would not hesitate to offer to you a word or two (hopefully not a full paragraph) of caution. I would do that in my interest and concern for you as a person and as a friend no matter how old and experienced you may be.

[Sara Jessica]

I think I recall the thread you are talking about Melissa and IIRC, I think the words "pink fog" were used.

My own definition for pink fog is "excuse for poor behavior". YMMV but my point is that if you take any TG individual who has limited experience in the outside world, let alone in a "hook-up" situation as this clearly was, I think there is a lot of space for admonishment, whether it be "be careful in bed" or "be careful in where you meet", etc.

Not only do you have the supposed pink fog in play but also an individual with the real world equivalent of a young female teenager's filters. Cooler heads would likely prevail but still, on paper it looks like a recipe for potential disaster.

[Shananigans]

See, I read Presh's comment on the thread in question completely differently. I took it to mean that as GGs, we sometimes know a bad apple when we see it. As you have stated, we have experienced different lives. I think Presh may have been alluding to the fact that we were born dealing with it and continue to do so. The fact is that I'll never quite know your life experiences, and at the same time you will never know mine. As women, we just need to be cautious though. I hope a TS woman would be just as aware, but it merits repeating I think for Any woman. I didn't take it to mean that a TS is any less able to understand a man's wants or needs than a GG. I feel like men are pretty simple creatures in that regard :) Maybe this is why the complexity of a woman is so appealing to me.

I think that often, care can come off as "preachy." But, I don't think that this is most people's intentions and they certainly aren't my own. I do have a person story, since I know you like to often take things personally :) I'll do it myself now.

A friend of mine from college met a man online that she had been talking to for a few months. I did not actually know when she was meeting up with this guy, but she told a member of our group that she was meeting this guy she had been talking to. Our friend told her to have fun and text her if she wanted to get together the next day. I guess things were a lot of fun, because they decided to be intimate. But, from what we know from the man's account (who admitted this), at one point in the encounter our friend became uncomfortable with how aggressive he was being in the act. (Rape is not about sex, but power as we know). When he couldn't calm down, she asked him to stop. He didn't. She tried to get away from him, after which he began to rape her aggressively and beat her to death. (This happened 4 years ago and was on the news, so you may remember this story). My friend never got the text the next day, and called the girl's mother. (After repeatedly calling her, and having the gut woman's intuition that something was very, very wrong). Since my friend had said who she was with (though we didn't really know the guy's name), the police found him and he admitted to the crime.

I have 10 close girl friends who are very smart, college-educated women. 3 out of the 10 have been victims of rape. They all know their risks and to be careful. But, being that we are all very smart and educated (and all under 25)...30% of the group has still been raped. I wonder what it will be in 5 or 10 more years. Hopefully, it stays at 30%.

I think this may be what Presh was alluding to with "male intentions." I'm a bit hyper aware that I am not physically stronger than most men. I could never fight off a guy that wanted to have his way with me, even if I tried. I also know that I am a very attractive woman and that I am very flirtatious and this might send the wrong messages to the wrong people. Male intentions and all, you know.

But, remember when I said that 3 of my friends had been raped? What's really sad is that they were all from men that we knew very well. I think that my friends had their guard on low because they trusted these guys and did not expect them to try to hurt them. Again, it makes me think back to what Presh said.

So, I do apologize if care can come off as preachy, but just as you often take things to a personal level...so, do we. I may not go into great detail about why I am getting so passionate about a topic, because I don't really think it's very helpful. But, what I do try to do is use my experiences in life to just give the best advice that I possibly can.

And, that's why I tell people to be careful. It's sound advice. Even the smartest girls that I have known were not careful enough. I could also get into the stigmas with STDs and how the most intelligent people I know have also had STDs. But, I know this gets everyone upset when we would like to think it's just the dumb, poor, drug users with STDs.

The fact is that people will speak from the heart and most of the time will give advice based on their personal experiences. It seems that things have been going excellently for you are your own right now. But, sadly, that hasn't been the experience with the women in my life. And, I can tell you that we all went to a private college that charged us 36k a year in tuition. (Thank God for scholarships!). We aren't poor, we aren't dumb, we aren't on drugs...but, life happens sometimes and I can't help but think about the things that could have been said or done that would have saved my friends a lot of heartache.

If these things are taken in the wrong way, I truly apologize.

[Sally24]

I don't know any of these previous posts or conversations but anyone who assumes they can't learn something from another on any subject is most likely wrong. I think that it sounds more like a case of infering intent rather than the speaker implying some kind of superiority. In my circles its not uncommon for a mother, or father, or friend to say "you be careful". The world can be uncertain and dangerous even for the experienced and strong. It's an expression of love and concern for someone they care about. When did showing love get equated to condescension?

No one has all the answers or experienced all there is. A closed mind is one that is no longer learning. Leave the attitude at the door and you might find that people are mostly trying to be helpful and not trying to stir up drama.

[Badtranny]

No one has all the answers or experienced all there is.

I don't recall saying that I did, on the contrary I'm quite open and honest when my position is challenged by a great argument. (see the battles with Kaitlyn)

Kelly and Allie there's a huge difference between you girls and the rest of the board. Kelly, I've been chatting with you online for what 2 years now? We've shared a lot of things and we both know the other is real. I care about you as much as I could anyone who I've never met. Allie, we actually know each other. You've been to my house a few times, hell you even gave me a ride home from my colonoscopy and put me to bed! I would expect you to care about me as I do you. My post is not about friends who care, it's about anonymous people who feel like they have to act concerned for some reason. It's about genetic women who talk down to us because we're only TS and we couldn't possibly know anything about life or men.

They don't all do this of course, but the ones that do just bug me. I'm 43 damn years old and I've had an interesting if not satisfying life so far. I've slept with many men and many women, I've been married and divorced twice, I'm an adult who has learned a thing or two along the way. Do I know everything? Not hardly but I haven't had a mother since I was 16 and I most certainly don't need one now. Especially one who doesn't even know me.

Sally, how can someone who only knows me through this forum show love and concern?

Babeba, your post was well received. (and very sweet) Thank you.

[Risque_Christine]

One of humanity's greatest problems is the apparent desire to create hierarchies, dividing the world into bad, OK, better and terrific. I don't really understand why this happens, but mostly I think that people either want to feel superior to others or eliminate competition for scarce resources--food, money, spouses, whatever. Many GG's will simply view you as either competition or an inferior life form. But many others will treat you with respect and decency and understand that you share many things in common. And I respectfully decline to make the most important point of discussion to be "What do men want?" Without wishing to seem narcissistic, more important is "what do I want? how can I be a better person?" Sadly, I cannot say that I could answer either question, but I hope with help from others to be able to do so. So after all this philosophizing, the real message is to be happy with who you are, even if others are not. And, may I say, that you have much of which to be proud.
Best, Christine

[Nicole Erin]

Usually when I go out on a date with a strange guy, when I tell people they say, "don't hurt anyone".
ONE lousy incident and they act like I am a threat.

[ReineD]

Somebody just posted in another thread that as women they might have something to teach us about what men want. That statement is patently ridiculous. No offense but what in the world is a genetic woman going to teach me about men?

Melissa, I think the GG meant that as a woman, she has had to learn to guard herself against potential threats from men all her life. I tried to explain this to my 6' 4", 190 lbs, 22 year old son last summer. He could not understand the abject fear I feel when walking to my car at 10:00 PM in a dark parking lot, just one block from a well populated main street. I can't always arrange for an escort.



I have spent my whole life being socialized as a man and in fact, trying like hell to be one and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I know exactly what men want.

This is why I think you misconstrue her remark. You have been socialized differently than she has and so you may not be able to identify with the same type of fear she alluded to.



There's a patronizing attitude toward us on this board that really bugs me sometimes. If my best friend told me she was meeting a guy, which she does on occasion, I would never tell her to "be careful".

Telling someone to be careful is caring and nurturing, and not patronizing at all. I don't think I'll ever stop telling my son, who is well able to take care of himself, to be careful when he leaves home to drive back to college. I translate "be careful" to "it is my wish that you will be safe and that nothing bad will happen to you". When people say, "be careful" to me, I take it they care. :)

[Tamara Croft]

And starting a thread to bitch about a comment that you took the wrong way ain't gonna fly with me, thread closed. And whilst I'm at it, grow up!