Separate TS & IS from TG umbrella

[Julia_in_Pa]

I get annoyed as well that TS and IS people are lumped under the "transgender" umbrella.

This is why there is a very large movement by the TS/IS community to remove themselves from this term.

I'm very active in this movement.

This movement is stemming from the transgender collective borg attempting to gain political legitimacy on the backs of the TS/IS faction.


Julia


QUOTE=Aprilrain;2653157]TS = "desire" to be a woman
TG = umbrella term used to lump us all together

its getting annoying that people think TG = TS[/QUOTE]

[ReineD]

Julia, you had posted the above post in a thread in the MtF crossdresser section that asked if crossdressers are TG or not.

You bring up an entirely different topic, so I've moved it to its own thread here for further discussion.

[kellycan27]

I get annoyed as well that TS and IS people are lumped under the "transgender" umbrella.

This is why there is a very large movement by the TS/IS community to remove themselves from this term.

I'm very active in this movement.

This movement is stemming from the transgender collective borg attempting to gain political legitimacy on the backs of the TS/IS faction.


Julia


QUOTE=Aprilrain;2653157]TS = "desire" to be a woman
TG = umbrella term used to lump us all together

its getting annoying that people think TG = TS[/QUOTE]


What a monumental waste of time and energy IMHO. Who cares? And for those that do care..why? Is this really going to have some sort of negative effect in your everyday life? Personally I have no time for people who constantly complain about discrimination, yet have no problem discriminating because.. they are different, and their cause is more righteous then someone Else's. What a load of BS!

[Julia_in_Pa]

Kelly,

You have stated clearly in your own words that you transitioned early. It is obvious that you have assimilated into society without worry.
You have even stated that you are heterosexual and enjoy life as such.
You are physically very beautiful and hardly are in need of protections concerning being TS.
I am even betting that you no longer consider yourself trans but a normal woman living your life.
That's a wonderful thing however it is not realistic for the remaining majority of TS and IS women.

They struggle every day to exist within the construct of society.

Without legal protections these women suffer at the hands of those that would do them harm.

Is this what your advocating?

Are you saying that everyone is as blessed to have transitioned at an early age like yourself?

Are you stating that since there is no discrimination that there is no subsequent firing from jobs,l loss of public access to accommodations such as restrooms, changing facilities and establishments such as health clubs??

Perhaps you will not acknowledge the discrimination in health care facilities faced by TS and IS people?

You my beautiful fellow member do not have to worry about such things but the majority do.

Perhaps you will clarify for us what you "really" meant?


Julia






What a monumental waste of time and energy IMHO. Who cares? And for those that do care..why? Is this really going to have some sort of negative effect in your everyday life? Personally I have no time for people who constantly complain about discrimination, yet have no problem discriminating because.. they are different, and their cause is more righteous then someone Else's. What a load of BS![/QUOTE]

[Aprilrain]

I would like to clarify that in the thread that my quote was taken from I was getting annoyed that people kept equating the transgender umbrella term with being transsexual because it leaves a lot of people out who identify as more than a CDer or other than a CDer but who do not Identify as TS. I was not implying in anyway that TS should not fall under the TG umbrella term or that TS was better than or should be separate from the transgender umbrella term.

Frankly when it comes to MY transition I rely a whole lot more on cisgendered folks, who know and love me, for support than all the on-line friends I have. They are real flesh and blood people in my life. I greatly enjoy the chats I have with my on-line friends and love the debates around here but in REAL life I only know a handful of other TG folks and other than 1 or 2 I just don't have that much in common with them. being CD, TG, or TS or all of the above or any other gendered weirdness you can think of doesn't seem to matter all that much in the grand scheme of things.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Clarification taken April.

[sandra-leigh]

This movement is stemming from the transgender collective borg attempting to gain political legitimacy on the backs of the TS/IS faction.


You imply there that the "transgender collective borg" (whatever that may be) does not, in your opinion, does not have and can never have any "political legitimacy". Who exactly judges the "You Must Be This Transsexual To Have Any Political Legitimacy" litmus test? Is this, like, a little note that my mother can write to admit me to the Real Transsexuals Class, or will you need evidence-quality recordings of my therapy and medical sessions? What is the address that I would have to bring my preserved "pocket pool set" in a jar to in order not to be judged to be less than human (since every human has inherent political legitimacy) ?

I would compare the idea to a fetid load of dingo's kidneys, except that those are at least useful as fertilizer: the idea seems to me to be more like salting the common fields because some of your neighbors were (oh the horrors!) seen to enjoy dancing.

[kellycan27]

Kelly,

You have stated clearly in your own words that you transitioned early. It is obvious that you have assimilated into society without worry.
You have even stated that you are heterosexual and enjoy life as such.
You are physically very beautiful and hardly are in need of protections concerning being TS.
I am even betting that you no longer consider yourself trans but a normal woman living your life.
That's a wonderful thing however it is not realistic for the remaining majority of TS and IS women.

They struggle every day to exist within the construct of society.

Without legal protections these women suffer at the hands of those that would do them harm.

Is this what your advocating?

Are you saying that everyone is as blessed to have transitioned at an early age like yourself?

Are you stating that since there is no discrimination that there is no subsequent firing from jobs,l loss of public access to accommodations such as restrooms, changing facilities and establishments such as health clubs??

Perhaps you will not acknowledge the discrimination in health care facilities faced by TS and IS people?

You my beautiful fellow member do not have to worry about such things but the majority do.

Perhaps you will clarify for us what you "really" meant?


Julia[/QUOTE]

No, what I am suggesting is that breaking off from the TG label makes no sense... You are fighting the wrong faction. What would you hope to accomplish that would actually do the TS community any good by doing so? Is society , or those who discriminate going to accept you more? Your discrimination argument makes no sense.. Is it the TG community at large who are the one's responsible for employment discrimination and such? Does the TS community have the power to stand on it's own? Do they they have the numbers to try and vote for legislation on their own? While the rest of the TG community may not be the same as the transsexual faction, they have pretty much the same desire for protection. Whether you agree or not that they do in fact need or deserve equal protection.. they do, and how could this be harmful to us? I think I have made myself pretty clear.. Maybe you can explain how being part of the TG spectrum actually hurts the cause?

[Julia_in_Pa]

Google this and understand the movement... " TS/IS liberation ".

You'll be busy absorbing information for quite awhile.

Once finished report back to me your findings.


Julia


You imply there that the "transgender collective borg" (whatever that may be) does not, in your opinion, does not have and can never have any "political legitimacy". Who exactly judges the "You Must Be This Transsexual To Have Any Political Legitimacy" litmus test? Is this, like, a little note that my mother can write to admit me to the Real Transsexuals Class, or will you need evidence-quality recordings of my therapy and medical sessions? What is the address that I would have to bring my preserved "pocket pool set" in a jar to in order not to be judged to be less than human (since every human has inherent political legitimacy) ?

I would compare the idea to a fetid load of dingo's kidneys, except that those are at least useful as fertilizer: the idea seems to me to be more like salting the common fields because some of your neighbors were (oh the horrors!) seen to enjoy dancing.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Please Google the same thing I told Sandra to.

You will understand Kelly.


Julia




No, what I am suggesting is that you breaking off from the TG label makes no sense... You are fighting the wrong faction. What would you hope to accomplish that would acually do the TS community any good by doing so? Is society , or those who discriminate going to accept you more?[/QUOTE]

[Kelly DeWinter]

Julia,

You suggest further fracturing the community ? for what purpose ?

[Julia_in_Pa]

Please Google "dont call me transgender" for many examples as to why.


Julia


Julia,

You suggest further fracturing the community ? for what purpose ?

[Bree-asaurus]

What about all the people who aren't just crossdressers, who identify themselves as somewhere between male and female? Who aren't just crossdressing for the cloths or for the excitement of it? We're going to leave them behind to fend for themselves when they can probably relate more to being transexual than being a crossdresser?

The biggest argument for separation that I could find (but I didn't search very hard because all the websites I found are pretty shitty to navigate) is because transexuals and intersexed people don't want to be affiliated with fetishistic crossdressers and drag queens. While I would agree with some kind of separation from those groups of people would be good, this is a bit selfish and kinda ****s the people who don't identify strictly as male or female.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Perhaps this statement written by Teresa Reeves a Transsexual woman will be of some help.

"" The word transsexual was one that accurately described us for fifty years and more. Instead it has been subject to erasure and replacement by the word transgender by people who are not us in the service of people who are not like us.

We are people who were born with a genetic or neurobiological imperative to be who we are, to be congruent in mind and body, and to seek treatment including hormonal therapy and surgery toward the correction of a birth defect. That makes us transsexuals because it is our sexual identity that is in conflict with our bodies and we seek to be nothing but the women and men that we truly are.

Many of us who were born with this transsexual challenge have testified before city and county councils, state legislatures and even Congress in seeking our Civil, Equal and Human Rights, to enhance the quality of our lives and to be able to live, work and enjoy all the blessings that come with living a good life in our country that comes with having the freedom to be who we are in safety and with dignity. We seek to smooth the rough road for those who come after us and legislation has been passed and laws enacted to secure our legal status, pubic accommodation and nondiscrimination rights, to provide for public education and awareness and also to provide aid and assistance to those in transition now and in the future.

But there are others who have latched to the coattails of our legitimacy and have defined themselves in contradictory ways while identifying as us and compelling us to identify as them because they outnumber us.

They are the male-bodied women, the ********, ladyboys, drag queens and crossdressers, drag kings and "pregnant men"- most who used to be called transvestites-- who now call themselves "transgender". They have endeavored to assimilate us as "gender outlaws" into their gender variant zoo.

All I ever wanted to be was a woman and nothing but a woman, a respected woman among women, and a female-bodied one at that. I began my transition some 35 years ago and I have not varied, bended or blended my gender or my sex since , certainly not after my sex reassignment surgery when I found congruence of mind and body ---- And I have been that respected woman among women.

We are transsexuals. We are not transgender. Gender is a sociocultural role construct, a cluster of roles and expected behaviors that are given to us at the time of sex assignment that usually occurs at or before birth. Newborns are "sexed" by a subjective inspection of sexual anatomy and are thereby declared "It's a boy!" or "It's a girl" based on the results of that inspection-- This is a "male" or "female".

Parents, family and society shape the child and behave differently toward the child with expectation that he (she) will play the roles of boy, son, brother, and masculinity... to man, husband and father, and manliness (girl, daughter, sister, and femininity... to woman, wife and mother, and womanhood)

Those roles assigned are often arbitrary, suffocating, setting limits and denying people their true nature and calling in this world. We expect that men, in their masculinity should go to war and we give them the rewards of power and influence. We expect women to stay at home and raise children and in history we have victimized women, declared to be inferior and denied the them the keys to power or even the right to own property and vote.

But roles can be changed, as an actor does when playing a part. Gender roles are like Shakespearean actors portraying women because women were forbidden to the stage and parts played like Juliet in Romeo & Juliet are transgender roles that do not suggest or require surgery.

But we are not playing a part. In being the women (men) that we are, we take on the risks that all women(men) face all the time from misogyny (misanthropy).

We are mislabeled and disrespected and less than full and equal partners in LGBT organizations where we can never lead, where power and influence are denied to us and they have discriminated against us in the service of a gay and lesbian majority and their rights over ours.

And we are mislabeled and disespected and we are less than full and equal partners in a community dominated by people who call themselves and us as transgender, yet they have contempt and hatred for us as transsexuals who have sought and attained sex reassignment surgery, congruence and wholeness-- when we refuse to identify with them and refuse to say that we are the same as them. """


This came from a petition called Free the T Allow transsexuals and intersexed to self identify as non transgender and non LGBT on Change. org


Julia

[Melody Moore]

I have no doubts that there is some legitimacy to what Julia is saying, however I am on the fence about this.

[Bree-asaurus]

I would be more in favor of limiting the term transgender to people who identify as a different gender than their body indicated at birth. So people who feel they are some part male or female, or androgynous as well as transexuals and intersexed would be transgender. But people who identify entirely with their body's gender, who just wear cloths of the opposite gender for whatever reason would NOT be transgender.

[Julia_in_Pa]

This also might assist in clarification.

This was written by my good friend Jeanine Ruhsam president of Transcentral Pennsylvania in Harrisburg which I am a member.

This was in Trancentral PA's September 2011 newsletter.


"" I spoke at our last meeting about personal
responsibility…about how each
one of us is a representative with
which those we interact with form
opinions of the entire transgender
community. That’s great when we are
fully aware of the charge of responsibility
placed upon us…we tend to help
form good opinions, which in turn
leads to greater acceptance of trans people, and thence to the legislation that
gives us all full equality under the law. It is also sadly true in the converse, as
is stated in the adage, “one bad apple spoils the barrel”.
As the critical mass of popular support draws near in the often bitterly divisive
ongoing struggle for transgender equality it is so important that each and
every one of us takes our part in this to heart: we must look in the mirror, and
do so critically. Our own behavior matters…it matters that we are the frontand-
center example of all trans people that the observer notices. Our brothers
and sisters fates are often dependant on this.
We have achieved great successes for trans equality here in Pennsylvania
this past year, but in the current political environment that is not guaranteed to
last. Each time an opportunity is presented for angry people to protest,
“There’s a man in a dress in the Ladies room! Think of your daughters and
wives!” we have lost tremendous ground, and open the doors for detractors to
fight to repeal our hard earned rights.
This, too, has lead to divisiveness within our own ranks. There currently exists
a group of (and I hesitate to use the terminology, because we are all one…but
they have chosen their own label) post operative (as in GRS) transsexuals
who renounce the name “transgender” and even the concept of a transgender
“community”. Why? Well, it’s really not hard to see. They see rights given to
people who take them lightly, abuse them, and drag the entire group- yes,
“community”- down. These are people who have struggled to live quiet, honest
and industrious lives…to simply exist fully and completely in the gender
that fits them best.
Neither the intake of hormones nor the suffering of surgery admits one fully to
the gender of ones choice, and acceptance by people as one who belongs
there. Rather, it is a more difficult, introspective journey of the soul, the psyche
and of behavior that does.
Please note the many events and happenings reported in this newsletter we’ve
been busy helping much of this, and we are excited to be a part of it!
With warm wishes ""


I hope this also helps.


Julia

[Lorileah]

Julia, you are very welcome to separate yourself from anything. In fact, maybe we who are not "TRUE" TS's can help you find the door. But remember, when you burn bridges you will have to swim on your own.

Is it so hard to see that until EVERYONE and I do mean EVERY FREAKING PERSON is on an equal ground, then all this "I am not...you are too" BS is just that, BS. So exactly what is a TS? You? Sort of like what makes a perfect dog at a dog show? You set the standard and everyone has to meet YOUR criteria? What if someone doesn't have any surgery? What if someone has just genital surgery? What if you have surgery so that you can sell your body on the street? How about those of us who may very well be Transsexual but we don't want to go through the surgery at all?

This makes me so angry. You think you would be where you are today without people who stood up and stood FOR something? How far do you believe SRS would have come IF there were not people who fought to change standards? They were not just TS you know, there are people who stood up who are "just CD's". This smacks of the "You aren't black enough" of the 1960's and 70's. Where do you draw a line? Can I play on your court if I take hormones? What if I just wear boring clothing?

Get out from under MY umbrella but remember the make up runs in the rain and you are going to get wet

[Julia_in_Pa]

Lori,

It's not just me who believes this, it's thousands of TS and IS women.

I'm pointing it out because their were many here unaware of the movement.


Julia




Julia, you are very welcome to separate yourself from anything. In fact, maybe we who are not "TRUE" TS's can help you find the door. But remember, when you burn bridges you will have to swim on your own.

Is it so hard to see that until EVERYONE and I do mean EVERY FREAKING PERSON is on an equal ground, then all this "I am not...you are too" BS is just that, BS. So exactly what is a TS? You? Sort of like what makes a perfect dog at a dog show? You set the standard and everyone has to meet YOUR criteria? What if someone doesn't have any surgery? What if someone has just genital surgery? What if you have surgery so that you can sell your body on the street? How about those of us who may very well be Transsexual but we don't want to go through the surgery at all?

This makes me so angry. You think you would be where you are today without people who stood up and stood FOR something? How far do you believe SRS would have come IF there were not people who fought to change standards? They were not just TS you know, there are people who stood up who are "just CD's". This smacks of the "You aren't black enough" of the 1960's and 70's. Where do you draw a line? Can I play on your court if I take hormones? What if I just wear boring clothing?

Get out from under MY umbrella but remember the make up runs in the rain and you are going to get wet

[Julia_in_Pa]

Lori,

I exist within a stealth environment.

If someone asks then of course I tell them but otherwise I lead a seamless and very normal life as the woman I am.
I simply support those that I identify with concerning this cause.

I need no umbrella Lori.

Julia



Julia, you are very welcome to separate yourself from anything. In fact, maybe we who are not "TRUE" TS's can help you find the door. But remember, when you burn bridges you will have to swim on your own.

Is it so hard to see that until EVERYONE and I do mean EVERY FREAKING PERSON is on an equal ground, then all this "I am not...you are too" BS is just that, BS. So exactly what is a TS? You? Sort of like what makes a perfect dog at a dog show? You set the standard and everyone has to meet YOUR criteria? What if someone doesn't have any surgery? What if someone has just genital surgery? What if you have surgery so that you can sell your body on the street? How about those of us who may very well be Transsexual but we don't want to go through the surgery at all?

This makes me so angry. You think you would be where you are today without people who stood up and stood FOR something? How far do you believe SRS would have come IF there were not people who fought to change standards? They were not just TS you know, there are people who stood up who are "just CD's". This smacks of the "You aren't black enough" of the 1960's and 70's. Where do you draw a line? Can I play on your court if I take hormones? What if I just wear boring clothing?

Get out from under MY umbrella but remember the make up runs in the rain and you are going to get wet

[Lorileah]

I think that those who want to be aware, i.e. those who are trying to change the world and not hide in a closet are well aware of what you are saying. It is no different that the L & G communities wanting to be apart fro the B & T's But you know what, I don't care. Go, play, do your thing but don't come to the lowly CD's when a TS gets mugged, or a Post OP had issues with their minds. There are THOUSANDS who will have your back. Of course as those THOUSANDS make their way along, they won't have time or initiative for you that follow, because after all...They are not TS any more they are women now and why should they work for your rights?

OH and BTW


I'm a Thelemite we follow the teachings of Alester Crowley we have a saying from our Book Of The Law which is "Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law"

In other words find what you were meant to do regardless.


There is no double standard if you do not acknowledge it.


Julia do you remember writing that?

[Proteus]

Julia, you are very welcome to separate yourself from anything. In fact, maybe we who are not "TRUE" TS's can help you find the door. But remember, when you burn bridges you will have to swim on your own.
That's right. You won't be able to have an intelligent discussion with other people as long as you stick so stubbornly to your own system of nomenclature. I welcome you to express your thoughts, but right now they are very hard to follow, and the copypasta and repetition doesn't really help.

[Melody Moore]

As it has been said many, many many times in the past, there are LOTS of transsexuals
who seen themselves as cross-dressers before they finally realised they were transsexuals.

The first problem I see from separating or fracturing the transgender community is that it
WILL create lots of isolation and many transsexuals will never work out where they fit in
because this other elite group will be far too busy scrutinising and discriminating against
others on the basis they are "attempting to gain political legitimacy" or some other bullshit.

I think divisions like this only make it a lot harder for others to find themselves because they are
expected to fit neatly into some tight little box. So yeah the more I think about this, the more I
realise why I am not accepting of these moves. We don't want more of the same issues that have
kept so many transsexuals confused & repressed for so long as we have seen in the past.

However I don't think anyone has any legal right to just put on a dress and walk into any public
bathroom or toilet if they are not living true to their gender. There has already been a number of
cases where paedophiles have posed as women to enter girls toilets and bathrooms and this is what
concerns me the most. I think we need much harsher penalties for these types of violations if you
are not legitimately identified as a cross-gendered person. So if you enter such a private area without
having proper legal identification showing your gender marker, then you should face the consequences.

However I see all these other gender variants within the TG spectrum should also be entitled to live a
peaceful and happy life without the threat of discrimination, humiliation, vilification, violence or other
abuse. But I still don't think they should be entitled to all of the same legal rights for obvious reasons.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Proteus,

It doesn't assist you if you do not read the material provided.

Please provide me with material or opinion as a counter argument or else you fall upon blind eyes within the intellectual sense.

Good day

Julia


That's right. You won't be able to have an intelligent discussion with other people as long as you stick so stubbornly to your own system of nomenclature. I welcome you to express your thoughts, but right now they are very hard to follow, and the copypasta and repetition doesn't really help.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Lori,

Do you now wish to entertain a debate concerning Thelemia ?

Perhaps a lively discussion concerning the teachings of Anton Lavey?


I think that those who want to be aware, i.e. those who are trying to change the world and not hide in a closet are well aware of what you are saying. It is no different that the L & G communities wanting to be apart fro the B & T's But you know what, I don't care. Go, play, do your thing but don't come to the lowly CD's when a TS gets mugged, or a Post OP had issues with their minds. There are THOUSANDS who will have your back. Of course as those THOUSANDS make their way along, they won't have time or initiative for you that follow, because after all...They are not TS any more they are women now and why should they work for your rights?

OH and BTW do you remember writing that?

[sandra-leigh]

Once finished report back to me your findings.

You aren't authorized to hand out homework assignments. If the idea is worthwhile, you can defend it yourself. You are an active member of the cause, right? So you know enough about the ideas to be able to explain them to other people?


Perhaps you will not acknowledge the discrimination in health care facilities faced by TS and IS people?

And there isn't any discrimination in health care facilities for "mere" TG? It's good to know that my general practitioner didn't really fire me as a patient, and didn't really threaten to have the medical licenses of the provincial HRT experts yanked. (Around here, the waiting lists for a new family doctor are approximately one year long, so few people dare annoy or even question their existing doctor.)


They struggle every day to exist within the construct of society.

And I don't?? Have you tried being publicly mixed-gender for years on end, when even people here in this forum deny the reality of mixed gender?



We are people who were born with a genetic or neurobiological imperative to be who we are, to be congruent in mind and body, and to seek treatment including hormonal therapy and surgery toward the correction of a birth defect. That makes us transsexuals because it is our sexual identity that is in conflict with our bodies and we seek to be nothing but the women and men that we truly are.

I have that "genetic or neurobiological imperative" to be congruent in mind and body. But who says that congruent in mind and body requires full GRS?

I've been on HRT for 10 full months and I am living with the unpleasant side effects. I've got enough boobs to be obvious (at least when I'm sitting down), and I do not bind them or hide them away or fold my arms over them to minimize them. My hair is the longest of any "guy" at work; I wear tops or blouses and (when I still fit) jeggings at work. My favorite earrings these days, which I wear for weeks at a time, are black pearl and dangle 1 inch below my earlobes. If that is congruent enough in body and mind to get me through the day, then who is to judge that I do not have a "genetic or neurobiological imperative" ?


post operative (as in GRS) transsexuals
who renounce the name “transgender” and even the concept of a transgender
“community”. Why? Well, it’s really not hard to see. They see rights given to
people who take them lightly, abuse them, and drag the entire group- yes,
“community”- down. These are people who have struggled to live quiet, honest
and industrious lives…to simply exist fully and completely in the gender
that fits them best

And I haven't struggled to live an honest and industrious life? I've been passed over for promotion more than once because I refused to play politics, because I insisted that the rights of employees be respected, because I wouldn't put the good of my group above the good of the organization. My boss has said outright more than once that my problem is that I am too honest. When, that is, he isn't saying that my problem is that I am a perfectionist (a point that speaks to the "industrious" part of the quote.)

Am I worth less (or even worthless) just because I have perhaps not been "quiet" enough, in that I have spent decades working long long days giving free public technical assistance in my fields of specialization? I've lost track these days of how much I've published... somewhere over 50,000 assistance replies. Is giving free technical assistance dishonest? (If you don't feel it is "industrious" enough to qualify, you are welcome to visit and try to keep up with me.)

[Julia_in_Pa]

Sandra,

I am by the very definition mixed gender.

I am intersexed so unless you are (and you might be) then perhaps this long pause I now give you............................................... .................................................. .................................................. .............................. will give you adequate time to regroup and respond in a knowledgeable way.


Julia



You aren't authorized to hand out homework assignments. If the idea is worthwhile, you can defend it yourself. You are an active member of the cause, right? So you know enough about the ideas to be able to explain them to other people?



And there isn't any discrimination in health care facilities for "mere" TG? It's good to know that my general practitioner didn't really fire me as a patient, and didn't really threaten to have the medical licenses of the provincial HRT experts yanked. (Around here, the waiting lists for a new family doctor are approximately one year long, so few people dare annoy or even question their existing doctor.)



And I don't?? Have you tried being publicly mixed-gender for years on end, when even people here in this forum deny the reality of mixed gender?

[Julia_in_Pa]

I am intersexed so I am authorized to hand out "homework assignments" to Proetus that was obviously in need of a work assignment concerning something they knew nothing about



You aren't authorized to hand out homework assignments. If the idea is worthwhile, you can defend it yourself. You are an active member of the cause, right? So you know enough about the ideas to be able to explain them to other people?



And there isn't any discrimination in health care facilities for "mere" TG? It's good to know that my general practitioner didn't really fire me as a patient, and didn't really threaten to have the medical licenses of the provincial HRT experts yanked. (Around here, the waiting lists for a new family doctor are approximately one year long, so few people dare annoy or even question their existing doctor.)



And I don't?? Have you tried being publicly mixed-gender for years on end, when even people here in this forum deny the reality of mixed gender?

[Inna]

I am sorry I have sort of skimmed over the top of the posts and didn't really get deep into the essence of discussion, however, I like to write few words regarding TG /TS /CD ect.

As I was living my life in the shadows of deception and fear, term Transsexual always made me shiver and the feeling of dread and disease overwhelmed my psyche. When I let go and after months of sessions with therapist I was pronounced a Transgendered individual, such term explained in the laymen's term exact condition however, it no longer carried the abnormality label with it. Just a word, but missing a key classifier, "SEX" which makes all the difference for those who did not have any prior exposure to such condition. Shortly after my therapist pronounced me a Transsexual, and I clearly understood the term by then.

Time had passed and I am very proud to say "I am a transsexual woman" I do understand every bit of every syllable through exposure and education, but when I speak with someone clearly novice to this realm, I use Transgender and lord be hold, they grasp it right away and feel sympathetic where if transsexual term is used, their mind goes for sexual deviation especially when raised in an American sexually repressed culture.

So umbrella or not, transgender is a term describing Transient, fluid, changing condition which clearly describes and is bound to individuals gender.

[Melody Moore]

I am intersexed so I am authorized to hand out "homework assignments" to Proetus that was obviously in need of a work assignment concerning something they knew nothing about
WTF? I am intersexed as well, but I don't think I am in any position to dictate to others what to do.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Melody,

Neither you or I originally used the term "homework assignments" that term was coined by Sandra in a misguided attempt to coerce me into a response that would be less than stellar.

I simply used it within the context that Sandra presented it in.


Julia


WTF? I am intersexed as well, but I don't think I am in any position to dictate to others what to do.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Inna,

A reply that is both well written and showing of your convictions as to who and what you are and how you identify.

I thank you for it.


Julia


I am sorry I have sort of skimmed over the top of the posts and didn't really get deep into the essence of discussion, however, I like to write few words regarding TG /TS /CD ect.

As I was living my life in the shadows of deception and fear, term Transsexual always made me shiver and the feeling of dread and disease overwhelmed my psyche. When I let go and after months of sessions with therapist I was pronounced a Transgendered individual, such term explained in the laymen's term exact condition however, it no longer carried the abnormality label with it. Just a word, but missing a key classifier, "SEX" which makes all the difference for those who did not have any prior exposure to such condition. Shortly after my therapist pronounced me a Transsexual, and I clearly understood the term by then.

Time had passed and I am very proud to say "I am a transsexual woman" I do understand every bit of every syllable through exposure and education, but when I speak with someone clearly novice to this realm, I use Transgender and lord be hold, they grasp it right away and feel sympathetic where if transsexual term is used, their mind goes for sexual deviation especially when raised in an American sexually repressed culture.

So umbrella or not, transgender is a term describing Transient, fluid, changing condition which clearly describes and is bound to individuals gender.

[Melody Moore]

Julia, I don't like the way you try to exert some type of authority over others in your arguments
because of your intersex condition, because the reality is it just negates your whole argument.

I am really over this elitist attitude we see in the community because it only scares others off who
might also be transsexual or intersex and might want to seek help & guidance & wish to transition.

The more transsexual people I talk to all agree that it is intimidating feeling so segregated & so scrutinised
by this elitist group when they started their transitions. Many left and went out and did it on their own. I
have seen a number of transsexual women come back to my group since we adopted a policy whereby members
were not to do this anymore, but we are there to guide others who might be trying to find out where they
fit in the transgender spectrum. Recently I was contacted by a guy who wants to learn about being a drag
queen, so I told him that I could put him in contact with the local drag troupe. Instead of just shutting him
out, I spoke to him a bit more about his need to express himself as a female and it sounded to me like he has
a lot deeper issues, so I suggested to him to see one of the therapist at our gender clinic which he is going
to do now before he proceeds any further.

If I get people that contact me and they are crossdressers, I refer them on to the appropriate groups because
our group mostly focuses on the needs of those in transition. And if the wannabe drag queen decides transition
is what they really want more than to just be a performer then they know our group is there for them. As a group
we identify now as a Transgender group, however as I said our focus is on helping those in transition and NOT to
discriminate against others but offer some guidance and support to helping them find out where they best fit it.

So this is why I am not for any division in the transgender community and why I think that different groups need
to be working together. We have some new initiatives coming up in our own state that will enable groups to do that.

[Julia_in_Pa]

I respect your position Melody and agree with quite a bit of it.

My argument is when those that have no intention of transitioning demand the same rights as those that must live full time 24-7 in which to survive.

This is when municipalities, townships, cities and states step in and use the part time person's demand for equal rights as a wedge to defeat bills that would benefit those that place their life on the line 24-7.

Representatives here in PA have successfully used the term "transgender" and the people covered under it as a tool to defeat civil rights bills here..
Full time TS and IS women were the losers in this because they overwhelmingly have the most to lose.

Part timers and cross dressers can simply slip into clothes of their other gender presentation and move on.

The full time woman cannot do this!

She has to live with the discrimination as it affects her very daily activities.

This is why this movement is large and growing larger.

It has nothing to do with liking or not liking CD's, part timer's, drag queens or any other gender variant person. It has everything to do with the day to day survival of full time TS and IS women.


With respect


Julia

[JulieK1980]

I'm pointing it out because their were many here unaware of the movement.



No, you said you are actively engaged in the movement. Not just pointing it out.

It's really quite simple, united we stand, divided we fall. It's NO more complex than that. Dividing a community that is already so fractured just weakens every "faction" <what a bizarre turn of phrase that is. Are we mortal enemies at war?

[Julia_in_Pa]

Jody,

Please read my post under your reply. Yes I am involved in it and pointing it out.

Because of total inclusion we have become weakened.

BTW you have yet to answer my message to you concerning the Keystone Conference in Harrisburg.

Thanks. :O)


Julia


No, you said you are actively engaged in the movement. Not just pointing it out.

It's really quite simple, united we stand, divided we fall. It's NO more complex than that. Dividing a community that is already so fractured just weakens every "faction" <what a bizarre turn of phrase that is. Are we mortal enemies at war?

[JulieK1980]

I understand your thought on this, (at least I think I do.) You feel that including everyone that is under the TG spectrum (specifically fetishistic crossdressers) as weakening the movement and giving opponents fuel to fight laws that protect us. I personally reject this notion. The average person, (and these are the people lawmakers cater to) see us all as freaks and perverts. Just because WE reject association with the different sides of being TG does not change the general perception of us. The average person doesn't really care to know why we are the way we are. They've already made up their own mind that we are all freaks and perverts. Nothing we say or do is going to change that perception (except time and exposure.) For this reason I feel it's paramount to stick together. There IS strength in numbers.

Aside from the strength in numbers, I simply see it as the "right" thing to do. When running from a predator, is it okay or appropriate to trip the person running next to you simply to save yourself? I suppose in the long run, you are the only one that knows, and has to live with it, but that doesn't mean it's ethically appropriate or makes you a good person.

I think our major difference here is that you follow utilitarian ethical principles and believe that the good of the many outweighs the needs of the few. I contrast deeply with that by being a Kantian.

[Katesback]

I am just a woman. That keeps it simple. The gender screws, freeks, nut cases, activists, trannys, and all the rest of the stuff can use whatever term they want.

[Kathryn Martin]

I am sorry I have sort of skimmed over the top of the posts and didn't really get deep into the essence of discussion, however, I like to write few words regarding TG /TS /CD ect.

As I was living my life in the shadows of deception and fear, term Transsexual always made me shiver and the feeling of dread and disease overwhelmed my psyche. When I let go and after months of sessions with therapist I was pronounced a Transgendered individual, such term explained in the laymen's term exact condition however, it no longer carried the abnormality label with it. Just a word, but missing a key classifier, "SEX" which makes all the difference for those who did not have any prior exposure to such condition. Shortly after my therapist pronounced me a Transsexual, and I clearly understood the term by then.

Time had passed and I am very proud to say "I am a transsexual woman" I do understand every bit of every syllable through exposure and education, but when I speak with someone clearly novice to this realm, I use Transgender and lord be hold, they grasp it right away and feel sympathetic where if transsexual term is used, their mind goes for sexual deviation especially when raised in an American sexually repressed culture.

So umbrella or not, transgender is a term describing Transient, fluid, changing condition which clearly describes and is bound to individuals gender.

Your response is well measured and I like it a lot. My only caveat would be that I was born a female with a transsexual condition and soon will be complete as a woman. Essentially, there have been no doubts about my gender for me and those that existed were simple exerted as pressure from the outside.

I also have trouble identifying as "transgendered" I am not part of any movement however. I don't like to be called transgendered and I identify always as transsexual if at all required. I do so because my biographical history applied against the WPATH definitions and DMV 4 definitions says I am.

I am simply female and a woman.

[Melody Moore]

I am just a woman. That keeps it simple. The gender screws, freeks, nut cases, activists, trannys, and all the rest of the stuff can use whatever term they want.

Kate, that is really lovely of you to be so disparaging of other people in this community - NOT! :angry:

Seriously, what the hell are you even here? Go live your life as a woman and let us get on with our lives.

[Kathryn Martin]

I understand your thought on this, (at least I think I do.) You feel that including everyone that is under the TG spectrum (specifically fetishistic crossdressers) as weakening the movement and giving opponents fuel to fight laws that protect us. I personally reject this notion. The average person, (and these are the people lawmakers cater to) see us all as freaks and perverts. Just because WE reject association with the different sides of being TG does not change the general perception of us. The average person doesn't really care to know why we are the way we are. They've already made up their own mind that we are all freaks and perverts. Nothing we say or do is going to change that perception (except time and exposure.) For this reason I feel it's paramount to stick together. There IS strength in numbers.

Aside from the strength in numbers, I simply see it as the "right" thing to do. When running from a predator, is it okay or appropriate to trip the person running next to you simply to save yourself? I suppose in the long run, you are the only one that knows, and has to live with it, but that doesn't mean it's ethically appropriate or makes you a good person.

I think our major difference here is that you follow utilitarian ethical principles and believe that the good of the many outweighs the needs of the few. I contrast deeply with that by being a Kantian.

So what ethical principles do you follow? I have some difficulty understanding what ethical moral principle makes running with the masses because there is "strength in numbers" the "right thing" to do? I wonder what makes someone think that subsuming every version of gender variance and then claiming transsexuals because they lend credibility to the effort is the "right thing". And to deny that this is the reason for which transsexuals are subsumed is disingenuous, because transsexuals lend their diagnosis and treatment plan, which is then reduced to women with penises, to achieve some form of legitimacy as "women".

[Bree-asaurus]

Ok, well let's just break it up even further then...

The post-ops can fight for their rights

The pre-ops can fight for their rights

The non-ops can fight for their rights

The in-betweens can fight for their rights

The androgynous can fight for their rights

The crossdressers can fight for their rights

Maybe we can break it down even further than that so that every group excludes everyone that isn't exactly like them so we can all fight for our own rights all by ourselves. This will be great because we all know that the voices of two or three people can definitely shout louder than the voices of thousands.

EDIT: Oh and then Kate, who is no longer transexual because she somehow changed her birth sex and her chromosomes, and who is clearly better than all the "gender screws," can fend for herself. Hope no one ever does a background check on you Kate!

[JulieK1980]

Ok, well let's just break it up even further then...

The post-ops can fight for their rights

The pre-ops can fight for their rights

The non-ops can fight for their rights

The in-betweens can fight for their rights

The androgynous can fight for their rights

The crossdressers can fight for their rights

Maybe we can break it down even further than that so that every group excludes everyone that isn't exactly like them so we can all fight for our own rights all by ourselves. This will be great because we all know that the voices of two or three people can definitely shout louder than the voices of thousands.


Precisely what I was getting at!

Kathyrn, I follow Kantian ethics. As I already stated. If you are unfamiliar of the current types of ethical principles, I recommend Google, so as to not derail the thread. Or you can PM me questions.

Also, someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but WE ALL have a Y chromosome. No matter how much surgery, or hormones or blending in any of us do, we are all still biologically physically male. I know this may be difficult for some to grasp, but that is societies definition of us. We can trod on and on and on about being a "woman", or correcting a "birth defect", but society will still spit on you, and call you a dude in a dress anyway.

[Michelle.M]

Sorry, I ain't buying it.

I have enough challenges with finding my own place in society without having to sign up to a fresh new philosophy of militancy and discrimination. It's hard to see the difference between anti TG bias that comes from the cisgendered community at large or from TS against those TG who are not deemed worthy.

If ts-is-liberation.org is the voice of TS liberation then I'll have to pass. Perhaps the extreme imagery and invective are appropriate for the "cause" but it looks too much like kooky fringe politics for me to take it seriously.

I wish you the best of luck in your mission, but as for me I am too busy trying to live life as a woman to really care.

[sanderlay]

I get annoyed as well that TS and IS people are lumped under the "transgender" umbrella.

This is why there is a very large movement by the TS/IS community to remove themselves from this term.

I'm very active in this movement.

This movement is stemming from the transgender collective borg attempting to gain political legitimacy on the backs of the TS/IS faction.


Julia



TS = "desire" to be a woman
TG = umbrella term used to lump us all together

its getting annoying that people think TG = TS



Google this and understand the movement... " TS/IS liberation ". ...

My homework...
I went to http://ts-is-liberation.org/Our+Mission ... and found no mission statement. I went to the home page... and found... "The mission has changed, drastically."

I went to http://www.ts-is-liberation.org/blog/ and found issues that women face like rape and sex offenses. Then an article entitled, "Transgender Inc. and The Transgender Borg Collective and Why I Use those Terms for the “Transgender Community”"

Is this blog entry the meat of what what you are talking about? if not... and if possible... please put a link in this thread.

As to labels...
Like... transgender... and many others... and lack of a voice...

I understand your frustration... and feeling like you've just been assimilated into a larger group without your consent. But so has every male, female, or human for that mater. (like the 99%) Where is my representation? Who is speaking for my issues? And yet it has improved greatly in the past twenty years. Before medical professionals thought we need to be cured. Speaking openly had dire consequences for that individual's reputation.

But I'm happy to say things have greatly improved. But it is not perfect and there is certainly room for improvement.

About myself...
I'm a bi-gender or two-spirited person who dresses full time with a mixed gender presentation. I'm a non OP person, a GM, genetic male, in my late fifties who is now happy with who I am.

I'm been labeled a transvestite, a crossdresser, transgender, bi-gender or two-spirited, a genetic male, white, Caucasian, and a human. I'm sure their are more, and some I find offensive and will not repeat here. But society likes to categorize persons so they can lump us in to certain categories. And many of these labels give an inaccurate and biased view of who I am as a person.

But I pick my own battles. A bi-gender or two-spirited is mine and I try to help those similar to me with my story and experience.

Is life perfect for me? Certainly not. But is it for anyone? There is room for improvement and education for myself and all of society to better understand us and accept us.

Separation from the "transgender" umbrella for the TS/IS community...
I'm sure you already have separate support groups for TS and IS persons. Beyond that I personally don't see the benefit. You already have the TS/IS community which I assume looks at their own issues, TS/IS. I look at this from the point of view of the individual getting the help they need in the TS/IS community and other persons who experience gender issues in other communities.

The other issues written about like, rape and sex offenses apply to everyone equally, not just one group. The person's identification gender will be their gender's restroom or locker room no mater what their clothing.

I've personally always tried to follow this and be sensitive to others who might have issues with my attire as I use group facilities.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

go get em julie!! you are so clever... Alistar Crowley!! LOL... i enjoyed my acid trips too...i just listened to music, i forgot to invent a religion..

there are 18 people surfing this forum right now..

I guess we need to stand up to the 229 people cruising the MTF forum and presumably stomping all over my civil rights..who needs them!?!

blowhards like you do ten times more damage to my rights as a ts woman than 100 of those nasty crossdressing fetishistic drag queens that you are railing about.....

i could care less about being lectured by the likes of you...and i can guess that is a reaction you get quite alot..

[Zenith]

go get em julie!!...

Whoa Cait-Sith...are you confusing Julia with Julie? :confused: I'm Julie... :D

[Jorja]

I have sspent the past couple of hours reading through the links and Googling the information Julia gave us. I have attempted to write a reply but the words just won't seem to come tonight. Then I stumbled across this by Mercedes Allen http://www.bilerico.com/2011/06/the_death_of_transgender.php which pretty much sums up what I was attempting to say. I think it is worth a read for everyone who has posted in this thread.

For me this was a key statement:

Part of this will require us to stop making assumptions about everyone else and start listening to how they define who they are, what they need and what their life experiences mean. Which means to stop assuming that everyone who isn't exactly like us should be dismissed as "not real." And means to stop assuming that third-sex or third-gender identification is any less valid than binary identification or that accommodation of both is irreconcilable.

[Persephone]

I would love to say that the premise shared by Julia and her blog buddies is a bunch of dingoberries, but frankly I would like to see the whole labeling cult come crashing down. The whole idea that we have to be labeled and herded into some type of rank-and-file is nothing but groupthink. What's the next step, the unionization of LGBT with dues to be paid to the SEIU?

Given the love affair between the LGBT movement, the unions, and the left (one such sample discussion can be found here (http://www.metroweekly.com/news/opinion/?ak=6068)) that's not really so far fetched.

Excuse me, but I've been living my life as a CD/TG/TS whatever-the-Hell-I-am for a very, very long time now. And I've been reading CD/TG/TS etc., etc., ad nauseum, threads and posts since long before there was an internet -- back in the days of dial up at 300 baud and $'s for long distance -- and I've come to one conclusion, that each of us is unique, a single individual who should not be exploited for someone else's political advancement.

I am ME, not an agenda. You are YOU, and you should never allow yourself to be a pawn in somebody's else's game.

There are legitimate reasons for us to get together. This forum is one of them, a place where we can read and learn, help others, and where each of us can expand our own potential, but this entire disability-oriented poor-poor-pitiful-me social label thing is a bunch of crap.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Bree-asaurus]

We live in a society of labels.

We also live in a society of discrimination.

In order for us to fight for our rights and end discrimination towards people who do not fit the binary gender roles, we have to rally behind some name, some cause.

I'm ME, you're YOU, blah blah won't get us equal rights. Standing up for ourselves with a united voice will get us heard. A bunch of random people saying "I'm ME, GIVE ME RIGHTS" in their living rooms isn't going to get us anywhere.

[kellycan27]

go get em julie!! you are so clever... Alistar Crowley!! LOL... i enjoyed my acid trips too...i just listened to music, i forgot to invent a religion..

there are 18 people surfing this forum right now..

I guess we need to stand up to the 229 people cruising the MTF forum and presumably stomping all over my civil rights..who needs them!?!

blowhards like you do ten times more damage to my rights as a ts woman than 100 of those nasty crossdressing fetishistic drag queens that you are railing about.....

i could care less about being lectured by the likes of you...and i can guess that is a reaction you get quite alot..

Thank you... Well said!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Whoa Cait-Sith...are you confusing Julia with Julie? :confused: I'm Julie... :D

Sorry zena! Ummmm....

[Persephone]

I'm ME, you're YOU, blah blah won't get us equal rights. Standing up for ourselves with a united voice will get us heard. A bunch of random people saying "I'm ME, GIVE ME RIGHTS" in their living rooms isn't going to get us anywhere.

And making fools of ourselves so that we can be manipulated by others isn't going to do it either, Bree.

Edwin Bok said, "Make the world a bit better for having been in it." I've lived by that philosophy most of my life.

I'm out there every day, with my FAB spouse, up front in public with people. Hundreds of people in social communities where "he" was loved and highly respected as a leader; social groups, public service groups, religious congregations, you name it. That's how I make my contribution to "social change."

The "activists" are the ones who undercut those efforts, creating and encouraging polarization and "enemies" rather than making us any friends. They do not forward our progress with the rest of humanity, instead, there is considerable likelihood that they retard it.

Maybe if we defined our role as being part of the greater community, contributors to that community at large, the public would respect us rather than the animosity that occurs when fanatic "groups" work to shove views down their throats in the name of "political activism."

The bottom line here is that there are divergent methods by which we can achieve full and equal participation in society and the notion that we must all salute the CD/TG/TS LGBT label-based agenda is absurd.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Kate T]

It would seem your "movement" of thousands of TS has few members here. Perhaps you need to reassess your assumptions? As with many others who have already stated things elegantly, your argument and movement still comes down to boxing and labelling not only yourself, but making judgement of others (i.e. drag queens etc.). It is difficult to work out if it is arrogance or misguided youthful enthusiasm that has lead to your position.

[Starling]

I want to take my place in the world, and not on a chart, but I do need a concise way to explain to friends what's up with me. I'm seeking not to make distinctions, necessarily, but to clarify who I am, so that others who support me can do so with knowledge, as well as their good intentions. I will accept help from anyone who will be an ally in my personal journey; and I will give whatever help I can to others, as I learn more. I have already gained immeasurably from what I have absorbed in a few short years here.

Sometimes, I think, the very act of sitting down at the computer brings out the urge to distinguish our experience from others' in this group of people, whose nature has forced us to think long and hard about issues that don't even exist for the rest of the seven billion souls we share the planet with. But we have much more in common than our long pondered self-concepts will permit us to accept.

:) Lallie

[Melody Moore]

Right on the money Adina, I would like to know where these thousands of TS folk are that support these movements
as well because when I have checked the membership lists for many of these groups, I found that they are still really
only a minority group. The general consensus I have found is that most transsexuals want more inclusion, especially
pre-op and non-op transsexuals and this was also reflected recently in a vote by my own support group which is 100%
transsexual. I put this question to my group and asked them we should be more inclusive of gender diversity and asked
them to vote on whether or not as a group we should support other gender variants and it was supported overwhelmingly.

The new WPATH SoC are also more inclusive of gender variance and this is where this panic has started with some of the
old hardliners that still believe that the original Harry Benjamin Standards of Care still holds more political weight than the
newer standards of care. I first encountered this with Charlotte Goiar's Harry Benjamin Syndrome Facebook Group. Also see
http://www.shb-info.org and up until recently I was a member of that group until Charlotte decided to remove me from the
group because I held conflicting idea's to her own. I messaged her to ask her why and her reasoning was as clear as mud
to me, but she did say I was welcome to rejoin the group after I had defined our group's policies to be more 'definitive'. She
said that the WPATH SoC differentiates betweens gender variants and was implying in her message that we had to be more
selective about who we supported. When she said this to me, I sent her a reply and told her not to worry that I won't ever
ask to rejoin her group ever again.

People like Charlotte Goiar were once a very strong political voice, however over time their arrogance and out-dated policies
have meant the end for them. These people have hung onto beliefs that were first formed when transgender health was in it's
infancy but since then there has been a lot learned by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH)
which was formerly known as the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association, Inc. (HBIGDA), which is why
the new SoC are more inclusive. So the way I see these traditional groups are still living in the dark ages and they forget
where they have come from. Meaning they too were transvestites, crossdressers, gender screws, freaks, nut cases,
activists, trannys or whatever other insulting or disparaging names that people like Kate can come up with. People like
this have actually caused more problems and driven people to suicide and I have been talking a fair bit about this lately
with quite a few transsexuals who have been pushed to that point by other pushing this old rhetoric down their throats.

These people don't have the first clue about supporting others with compassion & empathy in transition, these people like
to try and dictate to you that "It is their way, or the highway" if you are to transition. They forget that other transsexual
or transgendered people are not like them, they don't consider what other issues you might have to deal with, or what other
hurdles you might have to overcome. They don't even consider the fact that some transsexual people just don't have the
funds for SRS, or they cant have it for other health reasons, but according to groups like this and people like Kate here, these
poor souls are nothing but gender screws, freaks, nut cases, activists or trannys. Do these arrogant people realise how bad
they make the pre-ops and non-ops feel? Do they realise that they also contribute to the suicide rate with transgender people?

So as far as I am concerned, any policies like this have no place in real transgender health.

[Julia_in_Pa]

I didn't invent Aleister Crowley nor did I misspell his name Kaitlyn.
Perhaps if you took the time to get my name correct as well as his perhaps you will gain a respectable answer from me.
I'm not here to debate Crowley. I quoted him just like some Christians quoted the bible in another post of mine in the CD forum.
Actually my " lecturing " was done in PA state government offices in which to push through Gender marker provisions for trans people.
Perhaps it is you hiding behind the avatar that should stand up and be counted Kaitlyn.

Julia


go get em julie!! you are so clever... Alistar Crowley!! LOL... i enjoyed my acid trips too...i just listened to music, i forgot to invent a religion..

there are 18 people surfing this forum right now..

I guess we need to stand up to the 229 people cruising the MTF forum and presumably stomping all over my civil rights..who needs them!?!

blowhards like you do ten times more damage to my rights as a ts woman than 100 of those nasty crossdressing fetishistic drag queens that you are railing about.....

i could care less about being lectured by the likes of you...and i can guess that is a reaction you get quite alot..

[Julia_in_Pa]

That's very kind of you to refer my fight as misguided youthful enthusiasm. I'm 45 years old.
I physically appear around 30.

I've been in this fight for over 15 years with five of those years spent transitioned.

I gladly label myself Adina. I'm intersexed and very proud of that fact.

I have grown weary of explaining to the public what I am not.

I've gotten comments like " your a cross dresser right? "
Or "you do this for the sexual thrill of it don't you!"

The public sees the seedy and degrading behavour shown by those that are less than human about what turns them on sexually.

I could hide myself away and be stealth, thats very easy for me to do.

I choose to be the bully in a society filled with those that would beseech my sisters.

Enough is enough.


Julia

It would seem your "movement" of thousands of TS has few members here. Perhaps you need to reassess your assumptions? As with many others who have already stated things elegantly, your argument and movement still comes down to boxing and labelling not only yourself, but making judgement of others (i.e. drag queens etc.). It is difficult to work out if it is arrogance or misguided youthful enthusiasm that has lead to your position.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I didn't invent Aleister Crowley nor did I misspell his name Kaitlyn.
Perhaps if you took the time to get my name correct as well as his perhaps you will gain a respectable answer from me.
I'm not here to debate Crowley. I quoted him just like some Christians quoted the bible in another post of mine in the CD forum.
Actually my " lecturing " was done in PA state government offices in which to push through Gender marker provisions for trans people.
Perhaps it is you hiding behind the avatar that should stand up and be counted Kaitlyn.

Julia

Spelling is for the birds...are you making fun of my poor grammar and inability to spell? have at it... i never said you invented anything... i said mr crowley did..

Btw...on wednesday i spoke to my daughters high school class... i got up in front of about 50 high school students (where i didn't have to spel) , and i told them how proud i was to be my daughters dad...
I got a standing ovation.

I've also lectured at multiple universities, and especially I've focused on speaking to physician's assistants about how to treat tg patients of all kinds. In the last two years, I've personally inspired 2 young people have decided to get into practices that serve the LGBT community

of course, that implies that i'm one of those people that "breed"..

my avatar and pictures littered this site for many years and thousands of posts...

btw btw...i'm a mathematical genius..i have a degree in mathematics from swarthmore college, where i also learned the arts and learned much about real philosophers and religious thinkers..
i also have an ivy league MBA in finance and economics...

as a math genius i'm aware of the idea that 229 is a bigger number than 18, (btw this is an open forum)...we have crossdressers here... in the TS only forum there was just me last i looked, it averages a post or two a day...

you are not a bully, you are a bigot and a fool.

[Sara Jessica]

What about all the people who aren't just crossdressers, who identify themselves as somewhere between male and female? Who aren't just crossdressing for the cloths or for the excitement of it? We're going to leave them behind to fend for themselves when they can probably relate more to being transexual than being a crossdresser?

Thank you Bree.

And thank you too Kaitlyn.


This also might assist in clarification.

This was written by my good friend Jeanine Ruhsam president of Transcentral Pennsylvania in Harrisburg which I am a member.

This was in Trancentral PA's September 2011 newsletter.

" I spoke at our last meeting about personal responsibility…about how each
one of us is a representative with which those we interact with form opinions of the entire transgender community. That’s great when we are fully aware of the charge of responsibility placed upon us…we tend to help form good opinions, which in turn leads to greater acceptance of trans people, and thence to the legislation that gives us all full equality under the law. It is also sadly true in the converse, as is stated in the adage, “one bad apple spoils the barrel”.

And this is precisely how I have conducted myself for many many years.

I expect to be read by The Muggles as a trans-something. Thing is, they have no way of knowing which trans I am unless I tell them. But fact of the matter is that many of us underneath the transgender umbrella you reject will be read as being male to some degree. My presentation, my behavior, is not only with 100% respect for women but also any of the trans-whoevers that follow in my wake who also share the same respect for women and their peers in the community.

This little movement would separate me from your little club. Frankly, I really don't care how you perceive it. Your lack of respect does not earn you anything from me.


...I was born a female with a transsexual condition and soon will be complete as a woman. Essentially, there have been no doubts about my gender for me and those that existed were simple exerted as pressure from the outside.

Nice way to state it Kathryn. This describes me as well with the exception that I am choosing not to do so much about it short of continuing along with my middle-path existence.


That's very kind of you to refer my fight as misguided youthful enthusiasm. I'm 45 years old. I physically appear around 30.

Get over yourself.


I gladly label myself Adina. I'm intersexed and very proud of that fact.

Those who are intersexed have a unique perspective on things along with challenges they can call their own. But my perception in reading your words is that you see yourself on the top of the trans-heap.


I have grown weary of explaining to the public what I am not.

I can just hear it, "gosh knows I am not one of those...those...those CROSSDRESSERS, eeeeewwwwww!"

Like I said above, if you are perceived as being trans-anything, Jane or John Q. Public has no clue what you are. If educating The Muggles causes you to be weary, then simply stop doing so.


I've gotten comments like " your a cross dresser right? "Or "you do this for the sexual thrill of it don't you!"

That's funny, I've never heard that second part before and I've been around the block once or twice. As for the first part, if I'm engaged in conversation with someone who doesn't know my history and TG comes up, I will educate them on terms used to describe those underneath the TG umbrella...oops, there is is again, and my place under it.


The public sees the seedy and degrading behavour shown by those that are less than human about what turns them on sexually.

Yeah, I get it, humans having sex and having sexual proclivities is really gross.

But why worry about those individuals who are in a very distinct place under the umbrella...who perhaps don't even identify themselves as being in such a place. Most of such behavior is in the shadows of the closet. The ones people hear about are those who find themselves in some sort of criminal mess or have voyeuristic tendencies and try to rope in unsuspecting folks into their games. Yes, it was said before that a bad apple can spoil the barrel but your premise speaks to tossing out a vast number of good apples as well.

There was a thread in these pages years ago, before my membership, where such a person proudly proclaimed the nature of his games with an unsuspecting public. He was afforded the same protections in these pages as anyone else in our community.


I could hide myself away and be stealth, thats very easy for me to do.

Please do.


I choose to be the bully in a society filled with those that would beseech my sisters.

You choose to present your thoughts in a condescending manner, bullying those who for the most part proudly and respectfully stand by the sides of those who take the fateful steps towards transition and living full time as the females we are.

I think it was mentioned above that there has been some similar debate in the LGB community about booting out the T. Their argument to do so in that sexual preference is not the same as gender identity has much more traction on the surface than this little premise you brought up which would fracture the entire concept of the T.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Perhaps my dear I'm a fool for speaking with you.
Speaking of educational attainment, I need not brag about the four degrees I hold in various disciplines.
What I do brag about is the work being done to separate the TS/IS community from less than legitimate concerns.
Sadly it takes a radical removal of such to clean up what needs to be cleaned up in order to enure discipline within the ranks.

[Julia_in_Pa]

The bottom line people is if your not at least full time you have no idea what discrimination is truly about.


Julia

[Julia_in_Pa]

I'm finished with this post.

Thank you everyone for participating.

Have a good Sunday.


Julia

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The bottom line people is if your not at least full time you have no idea what discrimination is truly about.


Julia

just skip over the facts ....speak to the point...thousands out of hundreds of millions is not gonna cut it.

The simple idea that ts people have it rougher than others is well known and not disputed.

You attack personally, someone responds personally and you attack them for responding personally..nice..

you have come here recently and berated and condescended to people...you have disdain for the human race and its propensity to breed, and especially for transgendered people that are not as transsexual as you.

your brain is big, but your heart is small, and your common sense is nowhere to be found..

You are damaging the ts community not helping it..and i won't sit here and let you do it here.

[Kelly DeWinter]

I started reading this post and thought hey, possibly an interesting topic, and it has turned into one of the most hate filled threads i've ever read. To quote Saint Rodeny King " Can't we all just get along ?" We are all in the same boat in a very large ocean. If we don't row in the same direction and in unison we have no chance of reaching shore. I for one can't wait for this thread to close befor it gets any nastier.

[Julia_in_Pa]

I already closed it concerning my responses.

Posting is complete.

Thank you everyone


Julia

[CharleneT]

whew, getting kinda hot in here .... time to cool off folks !!

I'll offer up this link to a video, please watch it, calm your mind, cool your brow and (for those old enough) harken back to those days of listening to music, dancing like a fool and creating your own religion ;) ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rRo9MwqmuEM

Ok, now talk civil ... please :doh:

[Melody Moore]

I already closed it concerning my responses.

Posting is complete.

Thank you everyone


Julia

Really? So what did you learn from this experience Julia?

I am one of those people who live full-time and understand very well what discrimination
is about and not only that I am also intersex, but still that does not qualify me or mean
that I am am always right about everything transgender - I constantly learn on daily basis.

As you can see there are a number of transsexual and intersex people here who are strongly opposed
to segregation of the transgender community. Sara Jessica nailed it right on the head when she said...

"Those who are intersexed have a unique perspective on things along with challenges they can call their
own. But my perception in reading your words is that you see yourself on the top of the trans-heap."

The intersex people I know don't usually discriminate against anyone & realise how diverse sex & gender really is.
I think you are a very bad role model for others in the community as long as you continue to preach this rhetoric.

[Lorileah]

The bottom line people is if your not at least full time you have no idea what discrimination is truly about.


Julia

That is the worst self centered arrogant thing I have ever heard. Discrimination takes many forms. That is why I believe it is imperative that all people work together to stop it. You cannot have discrimination unless there are at least two sides. So your solution is to decrease the number of your supporters AND discriminate against others because they don't understand you.





I have grown weary of explaining to the public what I am not.

I've gotten comments like " your a cross dresser right? "
Or "you do this for the sexual thrill of it don't you!"

The public sees the seedy and degrading behavour shown by those that are less than human about what turns them on sexually.


Julia Then educate, don't bully. Explain, don't respond in anger. People are people. They only know what they have been told, what they see in th media. What sells more ads, sex or the everyday? When was the last time you saw a positive story on a TG person? When she was appointed to a top level position in the government (or maybe Chaz Bono as a spokesperson). But that didn't grab attention. The guy in the dress in the park...that did because it is prurient. And he may be for all you know a TS who has decided to make a statement.

Walk away from this. That is the best way to prove you are right. Walk away,just like those people who see you on the street.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

look guys...you can't come into a room spouting awful things and not get blow back...don't be so afraid to step up and get your hands dirty...

can't we all just get along? actually no!.. there is much more to life than getting along...there are bad ideas, there are bad things...there are conflicts, and they get resolved or don't get resolved...

i'm living the life day to day, and its going quite well... and people like the OP make me look bad...

[Zenith]

Julia, what I find ironic is that you, as a non-op, have gained many rights from the work of the people in the TG umbrella. It used to be that you needed SRS to be legally female. It's still that way in many places including my home state. But you can get your "F" on Passports, Social, and in many states, Driver's. To be recognized as a woman and still have a penis has been, and still is, a fight.

[JulieK1980]

It's really quite sad. I don't know you Julia, and I don't know what made you so bitter and hateful towards others. Truly I WANT to respect you, even if I disagree with your premises, but I can't. Until you learn to respect others, and if you are in your 40's I doubt that will happen, you will never gain my respect, nor will you likely receive the respect of anybody that doesn't also hate people. I hope that you learn from your arrogance and become a better person. Reading your posts, I see someone that is like a wounded dog lashing out at everyone around them. Why don't you seek help to heal those wounds, and stop biting at those that would help you.

[Katesback]

Hey now. Julia has her opinions. You do not have to agree with them. If you feel shes doing something you dont support then thats fine. I have been very clear that for the most part I think activist are idiots that do nothing to help me. You dont have to agree with me but when you start throwing shit at me it or Julie your doing nothing but acting like......an idiot.

[Zenith]

Hey now. Julia has her opinions. You do not have to agree with them. If you feel shes doing something you dont support then thats fine. I have been very clear that for the most part I think activist are idiots that do nothing to help me. You dont have to agree with me but when you start throwing shit at me it or Julie your doing nothing but acting like......an idiot.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! People please...there is JULIE and JULIA...we are not the same person. :doh:

[Persephone]

Actually my " lecturing " was done in PA state government offices in which to push through Gender marker provisions for trans people.

Is that why the new PA state driver's license criteria are more restrictive than the new U.S. passport criteria?

[JulieK1980]

Pot.....Kettle.....Black.:straightface:

[ValRom]

Before this thread turned into name-calling, it had a topic very worthy of debate. Whether one agrees with the premise of the TS-separatist movement or not, it is a reality.

Did anyone ever define "TG umbrella"? My understanding is that includes, in NO order of importance or significance:
Drag queens/kings
Transgendered (anyone care to define the qualities of some who's transgendered?)
Transsexual (again, anyone want to define this?)
Crossdresser
Intersex
Gender queer (another term up for definition)

My comments about definitions are rhetorical. My point is that these are very fluid categories, open to self-identification and we won't define those terms HERE (lol).

Any one want to add other categories? Delete any?

Wouldn't a better name for "TG umbrella" be "gender-variant umbrella" (I know no one would use this term)?

Except for those people who rightfully belong to another category, but who aren't yet aware of his or her true condition - do any of the following categories have a gender identity conflict?

a) Drag Kings/Queens
b) Crossdressers
c) Transsexuals - for example, I always knew I was female, felt myself to be female: my issue was not gender, but anatomy

Self-identification: post-op, do not consider myself to be at the top of any pyramid (gender-related or not), 65 years old and aware of my condition since I was 6 years old.

[Rianna Humble]

Before this thread turned into name-calling, it had a topic very worthy of debate. Whether one agrees with the premise of the TS-separatist movement or not, it is a reality.

You are perfectly correct that it is a reality, whether it is worth debating the views of any group of self-opinionated elitists is another question. Their movement's title an aims are in an of themselves an anomaly - they don't want any group speaking for them so they form a group to say so.


Except for those people who rightfully belong to another category, but who aren't yet aware of his or her true condition - do any of the following categories have a gender identity conflict?

a) Drag Kings/Queens
b) Crossdressers
c) Transsexuals - for example, I always knew I was female, felt myself to be female: my issue was not gender, but anatomy

Self-identification: post-op, do not consider myself to be at the top of any pyramid (gender-related or not), 65 years old and aware of my condition since I was 6 years old.

Unless I have misunderstood your question (always possible) I can tell you that this transsexual had a gender identity conflict for several decades. When it became such that it impaired my functioning to the point of planning suicide, I decided that it was time to resolve the conflict.