Please help me understand

[Presh GG]

Ok, I'm a gg , Please don't hold that against me.

I don't understand the phrase " self loathing".
intellectually , I understand the concept of depression , but how does it degenerate to loathing one's self ?

I've met quite a few of the gals on and off this forum and to me they've got it all going on.
It hurts my head to think someone can think so little of themselves
.
Maybe if we talk it out , those who are in turmoil will see the good in all of us.

Thank you for any insight
Presh GG

[gabimartini]

Presh,

I think it's hard to have the kind of secret that we have. There's not much we can do about it, and sharing it not always produces good results. So, I'm afraid a lot of us go into the "why me" mode. With it comes shame, guilt, doubt, rage, and a stream of negative feelings that combined produce self-loathing. After all, it is not easy being different, and having to hide it!

I believe the cure lies in understanding and accepting transgenderism for what it is. It is not a curse or a gift. It is a fact of life, one we can't change. One that poses some operational problems to explore, but also opens up possibilities. TG persons must understand that transgenderism is what we make of it, not what it makes of us.

Guess I'm not making much sense, huh? I don't even know if this is the kind of self-loathing you were referring to.

[prene]

Presh,
THanks for the coment.
I sometime fell bad since I am not in the main stream.
Sometimes I wish my thoughts and desires were different ... but they are not.

It is not easy sometimes.
I feel bad when someone else thing little of me.

But it does not " degenerate to loathing one's self "

[Kelly DeWinter]

It has a lot to do with self esteem, how you see yourself. A lot of times it comes from things others say. you move from disliking yourself to self lothing, hating yourself. Thats why a good self image is very important. It's a very common issue even outside of the Transgender community. Some profession's say its more prevalent in women then men. So since transgendered people identify as female, it's no wonder you find it prevalent on boads such as this one.

[Marleena]

Presh, I think it's great when GG's want to know about our feelings. Being an older person we were lead to believe we had a mental illness at one point in time (decades ago). We couldn't tell anybody, had to hide CDing from everybody. Times are getting better but it's still not easy being a CD'er. We are a turn off to some GG's, and still frowned upon by many people. There is a lot of stress that goes along with it. This forum helps us to realize we are okay, and normal people.

[Leanne2]

Dear Presh,
I am a M to F transgender woman. I've only known this for three years. At first, when I was three or four I thought I was a girl. Then as puberty kicked in I figured that I must be gay. But the problem with that diagnosis was that I was only attracted to girls. I developed a man's body but still felt like a woman so I decided that I was a straight cross-dresser. As the years went by that diagnosis didn't seem right either. As you can imagine this situation caused stress in our marriage so I started counseling with a gender specialist. I learned many things but one thing that surprised me was the fact that gender and sexual orientation are formed at two different times in a fetus. If I would have been attracted to men then I would have believed that I was gay or eventually transgendered and I could have transitioned when I was much younger. Or, the best scenario would have been for my parents to take steps to delay male puberty until I could decide as a young adult on GRS. But that was the 50s and 60s and no one knew about these things then. So, male puberty ruined my body. I'm stuck with this hairy body and deep voice and it makes me want to scream just thinking about that. The average person on the street would say," You're a guy; just get over it." How would you like to hear those words? I hope this helps you to understand how some of us feel. Leanne

[Jonianne]

Ok, I'm a gg , Please don't hold that against me.

I don't understand the phrase " self loathing".....
It hurts my head to think someone can think so little of themselves.....

Presh, I will never hold the fact that you are GG against you. Your input is super important and valid to me.

Depression and ultimatly "self loathing" is genderless. Think of how many people you know, both male and female, that CUT themselves, for example. It is horrendously wide spread. It probably has hit every family. Sometimes we outside of them, just dont see how things are so bad that they have to do something like that. It's the depression.

As far as being a cd'er goes, I went through so much agony with what I now understand is cognative dissosance, which means holding two opposing views at the same time. Tell me that wont drive you nuts. Essentially, it is that deep inside we think something is wrong with us that can't be fixed, so we as a person must be bad, therefore we may start to "loath ourselves".

What brought me out of it was hearing from many people, especially non-cd'ers, that I was OK just as I am and that I was still loved and accepted, no matter what cloths I liked to wear. In time when I had the ability to really let that love and acceptance sink in and settle in my own spirit, then I began to change from hating myself, to loving myself with no strings attached. Connection and communication (wrong kind of) with others caused the problem to begin with and connection and communication with safe others is therefore the solution as well. You have to be repaired where the train went off the tracks.

[Jessinthesprings]

I cannot speak for anyone but myself:

It's not a hatred of who you are rather what you are. I hate seeing the male in the mirror. I hate how my body feels wrong somehow. But that's too simplistic, and it never is. You are being torn too. There is a perception by transgendered people (and is probably true) that the outside world at best thinks of us a joke and at worst freaks who need to die. Who wants to present as one gender only to be seen as a freak in the oppisite gender; ie man in a dress. Then there is the fear of rejection of friends and family, and the pain that it will cause them.

There is a lot to hate about being transgendered, and since blame cannot be placed on any external source it falls on you...

[Presh GG]

Thank you all

I understand being depressed over loss of a job, a failed marriage ., In this ecconomy, in this world it , would be unusual Not to have times of depression.
But to Loath ones self , because , face it , we're all a little "differant" This is what I don't understand.
To you all, you are special , you are who you were ment to be. That's pretty cool

Presh

[Kathi Lake]

. . . you are who you were ment to be. That's pretty cool.If everyone's attitudes were like yours, there would be no self-loathing!

Some of us feel as we do because we have been taught by parents, teachers, peers, and pretty much society as a whole, that we are damaged, sick, perverted, wrong, sinning, screwed up, and more. Some of us actually - for a time - believe what we have been taught. Sad, isn't it?

Kathi

[Marleena]

Thank you all

I understand being depressed over loss of a job, a failed marriage ., In this ecconomy, in this world it , would be unusual Not to have times of depression.
But to Loath ones self , because , face it , we're all a little "differant" This is what I don't understand.
To you all, you are special , you are who you were ment to be. That's pretty cool

Presh

Thanks so much Presh! Can we clone you, and replace all the haters out there? :)

[Alberta_Pat]

Presh, I think that the difficulties come from trying to "fit the image".

Many of the members here identify as female in a male body. This by itself will create a great deal of angst. When one adds the "inability" of society to accept this "bilateral-ism", it generates a feeling of inadequacy in the person who does not "conform".

When "non-conformity" becomes an issue, a person wants to try to adapt and conform. If the mind is not willing to do so, conflict develops. This conflict becomes all encompassing in some, and begins a downward spiral of non-acceptance of oneself. Depression can ensue, and when this happens, a person tries to "reason" their way out.

When all logical thought begins to fail, a person can internalize these thoughts, and begin to wonder what is "wrong" with them. This starts the thought process of: "If only I weren't this way, life would be better". So, now the individual is feeling that "they" are the problem, not society.

Left unchecked, this will develop into that "self loathing" to which you refer. EG: This is all my fault, and I can't change it. I wish I were different, If only I were different, etc.

[Just Elizabeth]

, I went through so much agony with what I now understand is cognative dissosance, which means holding two opposing views at the same time. Tell me that wont drive you nuts. Essentially, it is that deep inside we think something is wrong with us that can't be fixed, so we as a person must be bad, therefore we may start to "loath ourselves".



This strikes a chord with me, even though I am an SO. I find myself feeling I should be able to accept my husband's CD'ing. Hey, it's just clothes, as I've read over and over. But something inside me has major problems with this. I feel we are losing the "we" as a couple. And I feel I should be able to fix the situation.. either by fixing me inside my head, or fixing some nebulous something out there that doesn't even have a name.

And yes, it strikes me in my self worth. I should be able to fix it. Or me.

Sorry, Presh, if you just wanted the CD view. But it's here in SO's as well. At least in this one.

Just Elizabeth

[Marleena]

But something inside me has major problems with this. I feel we are losing the "we" as a couple. And I feel I should be able to fix the situation.. either by fixing me inside my head, or fixing some nebulous something out there that doesn't even have a name.

Some people may never accept it. If you have an SO that CD's you have a choice of letting him continue, and hide it from you, or there will be huge problems in the relationship. If you can't find a middle ground and counselling won't help, the relationship is doomed. Just my thought.

[Misti]

Please help me understand

Ok, I'm a gg, Please don't hold that against me. I don't understand the phrase " self loathing". Intellectually, I understand the concept of depression , but how does it degenerate to loathing one's self? ... It hurts my head to think someone can think so little of themselves. Maybe if we talk it out , those who are in turmoil will see the good in all of us.

Dear Presh,
Great question, Presh, and thank you so very much for your GG interest in, and visible support of, "Our Cause!" It is actually a GG (my SO) that is helping me slide smoothly through that narrow door to being what I am fast falling in love with, me being what I am now (However, I’m not completely sure what, yet, though?). I didn't know about all of this until about 18 months ago. Oh, there were other possibility(?) signs along the way, to be sure, but I chose to completely ignore them, until now.

In the past 18 months I have become the "happiest and most content person" I could ever be while finding out about this truly magnificent, utterly marvelous, incredibly mysterious, mesmerizing, addicting and fascinating "feminine side" of my personality. My marriage of 26+ years is now the “sweetest, most loving, understanding and fulfilling" of a whole lifetime of turmoil and tumult, not surprisingly, as a man with three (3) previous marriages, three (3) grown children, and a very productive, eventful and successful career in the USAF. Mind you, nothing feminine had anything to do with all of that previous utterly frustrating, sometimes fascinating, but highly successful “previous lifetime”; it was purely and simply just my being a "hard-headed" Scorpio, in the wrong timeframe, circumstances and places, most likely? We’ll never know?


I cannot speak for anyone but myself:
It's not a hatred of who you are rather what you are. I hate seeing the male in the mirror.... But that's too simplistic, and it never is. You are being torn too. There is a perception by transgendered people (and is probably true) that the outside world at best thinks of us a joke and at worst freaks who need to die. Who wants to present as one gender only to be seen as a freak in the opposite gender; i.e. [a] man in a dress. Then there is the fear of rejection of friends and family, and the pain that it will cause them.

Jess, has put a finger right on what my main problem is, so far. I never have liked that male face in the mirror; well, hardly ever, but most definitely not now. I do have a couple of male photos that I can be proud of, but then, that's about it. I seriously want to do some reconstruction to rectify that problem, but I'm afraid it is way too late in this lifetime for all that necessary beautification, sad to say.

So, to the point of your question, there are differing levels of "self loathing," Presh. Luckily mine can be lived with and covered up with good makeup, a wig and earrings. But, not everyone can achieve happiness that way, sad to say. I only sincerely hope and pray that all the others stricken with this "self loathing" affliction can overcome it, and go on to live the "Perfect Life" like they fervently long to do.

GOD BLESS AND KEEP MY SO HEALTHY, LOVING, WISE AND SUPPORTING of “something” that could just as easily and logically be equally as "Loathing" to her, as well, but viewed solely from her side of this perplexing "extreme femininity in men" daunting equation... GOD Bless you, Presh, and all of you supporting SO’s out there, as well! You are priceless to us all.

Now that I think of it, Girls, that may be a real solution to all this, you know; get a loving, supporting SO. Then, the world can go take a flying “leap” (you intuitively know what “explicative deleted” word to re-insert there, don’t you?) at a rolling donut?

Best of luck, always and sincerely,

L&R

[Frédérique]

Please help me understand Ok, I'm a gg , Please don't hold that against me. I don't understand the phrase " self loathing". intellectually , I understand the concept of depression , but how does it degenerate to loathing one's self ? I've met quite a few of the gals on and off this forum and to me they've got it all going on. It hurts my head to think someone can think so little of themselves. Maybe if we talk it out , those who are in turmoil will see the good in all of us. Thank you for any insight

This would be the perfect opportunity to correct the posted injury you once inflicted on me, but I think I will address the topic instead, since you asked for “any” insight…:sigh:

Are you referring to Marleena’s thread OP, where I just came across the term “self-loathing?” What are you having trouble understanding? I think it was quite clear:


I've felt the same as many of you, depressed, shamed, afraid, lonely, etc. I felt like a freak of nature and tried stopping the urges many times, but it never went away. I tried purging to cure myself of it, that didn't work either, I felt worse afterwards. It was a curse for many years but I had to keep dressing. All the years of self loathing took a toll on me emotionally.

Perhaps from your perspective you can’t appreciate what it’s like for a male to dress in female clothing – it goes against everything you’ve been told, everything people expect from you, and everything you tell yourself you’re supposed to be. Add to this the inevitable gay connotations, questions about mental illness, the shame of having to hide what gives you pleasure, and so forth. Some of us take a long time to overcome what can be termed self-loathing, which is another way to describe this underlying feeling that what you’re doing is WRONG. It’s not wrong, but in order to come to that conclusion, an MTF crossdresser has to overcome innumerable barricades, placed between him (soon to be her) and personal happiness. Imagine being burdened with thinking that crossdressing is a curse, or that free expression is not valid in it’s own right, and you may begin to appreciate how one can loathe oneself – it’s not the fault of the individual, rather it’s the general opinion floating around out there, where ignorance rules and conformity reigns…

BTW, there’s no need to tell me you’re a GG – I can read your pseudonym…:doh:

[Kaz]

Presh, you a special person indeed! When I self-'loathe'... it is because of the negative impact that my 'being' me has on others. This applies to me more than just CDing... but yeah... society is against us and this whole closeted thing gets to you sometimes, especially if you have wife, kids, that sort of thing...

My wife said to me a while back... "I didn't sign up for this"... which means that I have let her down in her expectations... not good?

[Jonianne]

......I find myself feeling I should be able to accept my husband's CD'ing. Hey, it's just clothes, .....

Elizabeth, what you are going through is exactly why my heart goes out to gg's who have to face this. First don't let anyone ever tell you that "its just cloths". The issues are far deeper and likely go all the way through to the most fundamental levels of crossdressers. This takes years and maybe a lifetime is not enough for the cd'ers, much less the ones who love them. So what you have to face is so much more and only love will see you through this. Hopefully your SO will give you as much love and understanding as he possibly can.

Second, accepting your husband's dressing is not your responsibility. You may be OK with it in time, you may never be OK with it. That is OK, either way. The real issue is finding a way to work it out so both of you can be happy. It should NEVER, NEVER be forced on you to accept it, that would not be real anyway and would only last temporally.

I don't know how you two can work it out, but just know that it is possible. It just takes a lot of love and work and even standing your ground when necessary. You must set boundries that give you a safe place, so that you can maintain a healthy sense of self and while allowing your cd'er to be himself in reasonable ways that both find, if not acceptable, but doable.

When you both feel respected then the love can grow stronger, whether or not you actually become more accepting. I hope this is an encouragement to you. Please stay on the forum and connect with all the other gg's that feel the same way and don't by any means allow false guilt to make you miserable because some of the other gg's may have a different situation. We all are different. But we love to hang in here and help each other.

[Rianna Humble]

This strikes a chord with me, even though I am an SO. I find myself feeling I should be able to accept my husband's CD'ing. Hey, it's just clothes, as I've read over and over. But something inside me has major problems with this. I feel we are losing the "we" as a couple. And I feel I should be able to fix the situation.. either by fixing me inside my head, or fixing some nebulous something out there that doesn't even have a name.

And yes, it strikes me in my self worth. I should be able to fix it. Or me.

Sorry, Presh, if you just wanted the CD view. But it's here in SO's as well. At least in this one.

Just Elizabeth

Hi Elizabeth, thank you for sharing this with us but also thank you for being the sort of exceptional person who comes here to learn more when faced with a cross-dressing husband. Far from having a downer on yourself for not being able to "fix it", you should be proud of the positive way that you have sought to adapt your understanding.

If your husband's cross-dressing was "just clothes" then he would be able to take it or leave it, but I have not met many cross-dressers who are able to do that.

I hope that your husband is able to listen to your feelings as you come to terms with this new reality in your relationship, only that way will you be able to grow as a couple again. Please try to remember that your husband has spent nearly his whole life trying to figure this CD thing out, so it is not surprising if you still feel a bit disoriented by the concept.

If you are worried that you could be losing the "we" in your couple, then you need to talk this through with your husband. Don't forget he's a man and men don't feel these things as intuitively as we do :heehee:

Whatever else you take from my words, please believe me that you don't need to "fix" yourself, you are already an outstanding human being. If anything needs to be fixed, it should be both of you working together to recapture the feeling of bring one as a couple - neither of you can do that on his/her own.




Ok, I'm a gg , Please don't hold that against me.

I don't understand the phrase "self loathing".
intellectually , I understand the concept of depression , but how does it degenerate to loathing one's self ?

Hi Presh, I hope you know me well enough not to expect me to hold against you the fact that you are a GG - that is not something to be ashamed of, it is part of what makes you such a wonderful person.

I can only try to answer your question with reference to my own experience in my former life.

When I first became aware that my body was not right, I didn't know how to tell my parents and I didn't want to let them down so I said nothing. Later on as puberty betrayed me even further, I began to "understand" that I was just meant to be ugly and not like the other girls. This also contributed to making my shy and not a little gauche. How could I expect people to warm to this ugly frame and confused mind?

Getting involved with a religious group who believed that anything other than cisgender heterosexual was a result of sinful choices only served to deepen my disaffection with who I was. From time to time, I would dress to experience the freedom of being me, but immediately afterwards I would hate how weak I had been in not "choosing" to be a man.

I developed a sort of coping mechanism by making myself useful, but this only really deepened my feeling that no-one could like me for myself because there was nothing likeable in who I was. I actually confided to one person who I did see as more of a friend that I believed the only reason anyone could like me was for what I could do for them not for who I was.

I don't think that I necessarily used the term self-loathing until my gender dysphoria got to the point where I planned about 6 different ways of ending my life. Suddenly at 3 o'clock one morning, I knew I could not go on living unless I could come to terms with who I am. Luckily for me, I decided that there was more future in coming to terms with myself than in ending my life; but I was sincere when I told my doctor that I would rather face a lonely life as an ugly woman than spend another day as the man I have never really been.

Since then I have discovered that I really do have some amazing friends, and I have had the privilege of making the acquaintance on-line of some extraordinary people such as the OP in this thread and Elizabeth (top name but 2 of many). I have also discovered that life can be something to be enjoyed.

[Pythos]

kk, I for a long time after 9/11 was self loathing. My life had gone from having fun with friends, flying every weekend, having good jobs....to having my life be one thing and one thing only and that was as a Road Supervisor at a paratransit company. The title meant nothing. I didn't supervise squat. Every time I tried to do something with friends my plans got ruined in some way or another by the job.

It got to the point all I wore on my time off were the lower part of the dull uniform I was to wear while on duty. EVEN WHEN HOME. It sucked.

Relationships failed, and life sucked. I hated myself, my life, and my existence. I felt I was responsible for what I had become. There were no other jobs hiring, my flying had gone comatose.

Now when it comes to CDers hating themselves, I think this is a result of CDing being aproached as if it is some sort of disease. This is something I see CDs here doing, and it irritates the bejeezes out of me, but I have refrained from my usual "THIS IS NOT A DISEASE, quite treating it as such" line, cause it just seems to fall on deaf ears.

Not sure if that helped answer your queery, but that is the best I can muster.

[Presh GG]

Since someone asked , no I was not aware of Marleena's post/ thread about self loathing. This is from a phone conversation I had with a friend.

Thank you all, It was the first time I had really felt her pain ..and it hurt me to think where it was comeing from., so much so I needed to ask your guidance.

Elizabeth,Any and all of my threads are open to everyone.
I'm so sorry you are hurting . It does take a leap of faith to know your husband still loves you as before you knew.
Please, know that things will get better , they always do. We're here to help in any way you need.

Presh

[KellyJameson]

Hi Presh I hope a GG is never mistreated here due to her gender that would be disgraceful. There is the occasional scuffle but in general every post I have read has been very open, non-judgemental and at times loving.

Self loathing, self hate, ect..(there are other expressions) usually builds up over a lifetime of abuse, rejection, humiliation, exclusion, cruely, criticism, ect... but regardless of the words used it is an attack on a persons very right to exist so they are left feeling that they do not have the right to breath the very air others breath. This is done in a million little ways or sometimes in a instant such as rape where the victim blames themselves but the important word is " attack" against your very value as a human being. It is always relational so it is a form of measurement, of comparison with the end result of feeling less than others, inadequate, insignificant, ect... always inferior to others in some important way.

We take all those attacks by others and make them are own by running the words inside our heads in the form of beliefs sitting in judgement of ourselves. It is a type of brainwashing that is always done by those who have authority over us. Parents,Teachers, Religion, Someone with larger body strength, ect.. always by those who have an unfair advantage and abuse it due to a combination of ignorance, fear and or hate.

Historically men and women have been controlled in different ways. In the past women who enjoyed sex were labelled *****s so they than were at risk for experiencing guilt and sometimes self loathing if they had sexual desires.

Masturbation was another act that both sexes were made to feel guilt and sometimes self loathing over.

Men who showed fear of injury or of death in battle were labelled cowards so feeling the very natural reaction of fear and the desire to survive created self loathing by labelling oneself as a coward in the privacy of ones own mind. This is why many men are violent, to prove to themselves they are not cowards so they can escape the self loathing but they walk into a trap now always needing to prove they are not cowards thru violence. It is hating something fundamental to who you are, a part of you that cannot be cut out.

It is a paradox that the truly evil always blame others for their behavior and the good always seem to blame themselves but the truth always lies somewhere in between.

[Badtranny]

Self loathing? I didn't hate my body. I didn't hate my life. I hated looking at myself every morning, and knowing that I was a coward.

[docrobbysherry]

For many of us closet dressers, anyway! What's makes it even WORSE for me is; I enjoy it so much and it turns me on! :o And, I can't tell ANYONE!

Add to that the fact that I spend a lot of time and energy on it. Time that mite be better spent maintaining my business and other material possessions? Or, socializing with my friends and family? :sad:

If our continuing deception, guilt for various reasons, and "perverted" sex aren't enuff to create some degree of self loathing, I just don't know what will!?:straightface:


If everyone's attitudes were like yours, there would be no self-loathing!

Some of us feel as we do because we have been taught by parents, teachers, peers, and pretty much society as a whole, that we are damaged, sick, perverted, wrong, sinning, screwed up, and more. Some of us actually - for a time - believe what we have been taught. Sad, isn't it?
Kathi

That's so well stated, Kathi!:thumbsup:

[Aprilrain]

I don't understand the phrase " self loathing".
intellectually , I understand the concept of depression , but how does it degenerate to loathing one's self ?

I hope you never have to find out, trust me it sucks!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Self loathing is a function of shame.. it's different than guilt or depression...its different than everything else...
depression is the inability to ever see the bright side...every little thing just seems lousy...its a grind...it feels hopeless..nothing tastes good, nothing sounds good etcetc...
guilt is the feeling you've DONE something wrong...you know its wrong, but you did it, you feel guilty...

shame is a feeling of actually being a wrong person..... not just the commonly trapped in the wrong body idea that people have about ts..
you didn't do anything wrong, but your own existence is that of a lower life form...its the feeling that because of WHO YOU ARE, you are lesser person..its not depression, its about YOU.
over time its very easy to start hating or loathing yourself , just for being such a worthless creature..

its a terrible feeling.

[Aprilrain]

its very easy to start hating or loathing yourself , just for being such a worthless creature..

its a terrible feeling.

very good description Kaitlyn, and yes it is!

[Tina B.]

Presh, for me self loathing came early in life. I must have been around eight or nine when my father caught me in a skirt and blouse, the look on his face, a man that was my hero, said it all, I could see the deep disappointment he felt, and the cold hard way he looked at me, when he told me too never let him catch me like that again. I tried hard to be what my father wanted and expected me to be, but I just didn't have it in me. I didn't like to hunt, or fish, I didn't like, nor was i good at sports like my big brother, and that was a let down for dad also. It seemed there was nothing I could do that would put that look of pride in my fathers eye, that I saw when he looked at my brother. I didn't want to grow up being the biggest disappointment in my fathers life, but I always felt like I was. as a kid I tried to live up to what a kid of my generation was expected to be, but there was always those clothes hanging there in my sisters closet that kept calling to me, and I couldn't keep my hands off of them, so I hated myself for my weakness, in the fifties, a guy showing any form of weakness, was a pansy and not worth much in my world. It was a cold war, and we where suppose to be manly and ready to fight at all times, and what am I doing, I'm hiding stolen panties under my mattress and living in fear of being caught again by dad.
Self loathing came easy, a lot easier to get, than it was to get rid of, thats for sure. My second wife, when i came clean to her, about being a CD was the first person that ever said, so that's all, I thought it was something terrible. After a few years I started to believe she meant it, and I started to learn to accept myself for what I am, but it took a long time, and there are still days when i feel it still kicking around in there.
Tina B.

[marlaNYC]

personally, self loathing, low self esteem and poor self regard was well conditioned into me, and had nothing to do with any gender issues whatsoever. it stemmed from the need to have my father's approval and support, which was never forthcoming. i pushed myself harder into all kinds of academic and athletic pursuits to try and get some acknowledgement, but no matter what i achieved, no matter how many tests i aced or medals i won, it was never ever good enough.

and then one day, in the middle of a major race i was a favorite to win, i realized that i was never going to be good enough, that i couldn't win, that to do better was causing him greater resentment of me, and i just stopped. walked off the course. and all this before i was 16. so ingrained in me is this feeling that it still affects my relationships with everyone.

it took a long time, but i discovered that dressing was a conduit out of that state. i've never felt any shame at dressing, just good, calm, confident.

[kimdl93]

There's little I can add to the many comments above. I can tell you that for me, the "self loathing" began in childhood - with those earliest realizations that I wasn't exactly like other little boys. From the age of perhaps 3 or 4, I felt flawed or damaged. I saw imperfection in every aspect of myself.

I don't blame it on my parents, siblings or peers...it was something internal. And like most of us, I compensated, sometimes effectively and sometimes not, but never really got free of that feeling until I went to counseling.

[Nicola]

I too have periods of self loathing over what I do. Sometimes when I dress it's almost because I have to, rather than because I want to - and I wish I didn't feel like that.
At other times I see myself in a mirror, think OMG a bloke in a skirt! and take everything off as quickly as possible due to feelings of disgust. We have all been brought up to see crossdressing as some kind of perversion and no one wants to be that.

However, at other times, I am happy and relaxed to be dressed or underdressed, and feel great calm at this time out (or escape) from my normal life. Nicola can express feelings that I find difficult to express as a man.
Both "the man" and Nicola can be very moody at times but that's because we are both human.

Nicola

[Denise69]

Ok, I'm a gg , Please don't hold that against me.

I don't understand the phrase " self loathing".
intellectually , I understand the concept of depression , but how does it degenerate to loathing one's self ?

I've met quite a few of the gals on and off this forum and to me they've got it all going on.
It hurts my head to think someone can think so little of themselves
.
Maybe if we talk it out , those who are in turmoil will see the good in all of us.

Thank you for any insight
Presh GG

Well, as far as it was for me, it stemmed from not being socially acceptable, of not fitting into that predetermined mold that men/fathers/military that we are TOLD we are supposed to be in. After 2 failed marraiges(neither directly due to dressing) I began digging deep within myself to find and DEAL with my personal demons. After coming to terms with who I am. I am much happier & stable. But it was a long road. Maybe we all need to put our collective heads together and create a 12 step program for self acceptance...

[suchacutie]

I've been unsure about posting in this thread. Why? Simply because that stage of self-loathing has never been a part of Tina's 6-year existence. How is that?

1) I never had parents bothering me about my gender because I could do "nominally" girl activities while still being a boy. I didn't know it at the time, but being a nerd in school meant that I associated with girls, and life was simple!

2) I never associated sensitivity and empathy with being feminine. It was just me, and I found a wonderful wife, married and all the rest without knowing that I might have a feminine part of me. How naive could I be, huh?

3) When Tina finally arrived, she did so with the encouragement of my wife. We treat Tina as a joint "project" so as far as we are concerned there is nothing unnatural about expressing who you really are within our marriage. It's just "normal" for us!

So, as you can see I've decided to post because if we are going to get a handle on these negative ideas we can all have about our selves, it might be a good idea to talk about how we avoid them or surpress them. One thing I have going for me is that I'm not alone, and no one is judging me negatively. I can see how it would be a nightmare to be told constantly that who we are is wrong, or worse. My heart goes out to all who have battled and struggled just to be themselves.

tina

[ArleneRaquel]

Presh, I think it's great when GG's want to know about our feelings. Being an older person we were lead to believe we had a mental illness at one point in time (decades ago). We couldn't tell anybody, had to hide CDing from everybody. Times are getting better but it's still not easy being a CD'er. We are a turn off to some GG's, and still frowned upon by many people. There is a lot of stress that goes along with it. This forum helps us to realize we are okay, and normal people.

Fantastic post Marleena. This site has been a great help to me,and has helped me make new friends.

[Stacye Rose]

Fear of discovery, shame from the fear, self-loathing from the shame

[Chickhe]

Presh..

Your use of depressed is not really correct. Most people feel sad when a bad thing happens. Some people who have many stresses in their life get depressed over time and a bad event can make them become clinically depressed. Self loathing, perhaps can be connected to someone who is depressed because when in this state, the normal mechanism to bounce back out of sadness isn't there and you are often sad, so you might really hate yourself for not being able to pull yourself back to a happy state.

[Kate T]

Presh
As a few others have said, true depression and self loathing I think stem from an inability to love oneself. I think it is almost impossible to understand this if you haven't felt it (and sorry, I haven't). I do believe a lot of self confidence and ability to love oneself stems from ones relationships with other people and particularly whilst growing up. I was extraordinarily fortunate to have a very loving family and despite being the only child of a single mother I was surrounded by love and encouragement. I think many people grow up in an environment that is not loving or encouraging, where they are constantly criticised or put down for their efforts. I think this affects the way we see ourselves and our ability to love ourself.

I believe we have to love ourself before we can give our love completely to others. I suspect this is why most TG's relationships improve after they come to terms with their TGism.

The self loathing you refer to I believe is a psychological and possibly even medical problem (evidence points to imbalances in brain chemicals and signalling). I think the only way of truly treating it is with love. We have to show those who do have self loathing that they are truly beautiful people and they should love themselves. This is not always easy.

I consider myself blessed that I have never suffered from this problem. I extend my sympathy and support to those who do and can only offer this. We are all different, we are all beautiful.

[LeaP]

For me, the worst bouts of self-loathing are in connection with extending myself, getting slapped down, then turning on myself for being so f******, unutterably stupid for putting myself in that position. It's swift confirmation that everything I fear is true. You can't imagine just how much you can verbally abuse yourself standing in front of a mirror, or for how long! Self-retribution cycles can go on for days or weeks. I'm mostly past the extended cycles these days, and the post-CD purges are long past, but am still prone to the sudden reaction at times.

Lea

[Debutante]

Thank you, Presh, for reaching out and trying to understand... we all appreciate you very much!

[Eryn]

For those of us who are older, we were brought up believing that what we did was weak and deviant. We were strongly discouraged from discussing our perceived mental illness with anyone. If I had discussed it my career would have been over. Against this background it is understandable that we would learn to loathe the fact that our perceived weakness led to these "deviant tendencies." This loathing was enough to keep me believing in my deviance to the point of not permitting myself to research CDing on the Internet for years.

I have a better outlook now, but I still have to work against the engrained perceptions of decades.

I hope that adds to your understanding. None of this is any fault of yours. It's simply the way society rolled the dice.

Eryn

[Anna Lorree]

I can only speak to my personal experience. I have dressed for most of my life. I stopped through most of my 20's, but the want was still there. From the time I was a small boy until now, society has told me that what I am doing is bad. Some say it's immoral, others that it is perverted, sexually deviant, against God, or just plain weird. I know that non-TG people don't understand how it feels to have your gender be incorrect as defined by society. That constant and consistant message wears on you, especially when you hear it through your childhood. Eventually, you start to believe it.

When you are doing something you "know" to be wrong (at least by the standards of popular society), you start to feel ashamed and down. Most of us try to stop, try to be "good" people. We often find that we can not stop. This led me to believe there was something wrong with me, that I was broken, sometimes even evil. And this is where self-loathing creeps in. This is where thoughts of suicide gain a footing. This is where my needs came into conflict with society's moral code, and I assumed the majority must be right.

The only thing that kept me from suicide when I was a teen was a fear of Hell. That's how bad I viewed myself. That continued until 2009, when I told a few people, including my wife, that I am transgendered. They accepted that (not easily in my wife's case, but she did accept it), which allowed me to accept myself. My self-image and views of society have improved since then.

Anna

[sanderlay]

Presh... Thank you for your questions... and thank you for your participation here. Your point of view is valuable and you are treasured as a person.


For those of us who are older, we were brought up believing that what we did was weak and deviant. We were strongly discouraged from discussing our perceived mental illness with anyone. If I had discussed it my career would have been over. Against this background it is understandable that we would learn to loathe the fact that our perceived weakness led to these "deviant tendencies." This loathing was enough to keep me believing in my deviance to the point of not permitting myself to research CDing on the Internet for years. ...

Eryn states this rather well as I came from an older generation as well. This secrete desire, which I tried to purge from my life multiple times, was still there. And yet people in my life must have also noticed my feminine character as well.

Remembering back as a child... One time, in my early teens, when I was caught by my mother in her lingerie she asked, "Are you Gay?" I knew I was not gay or attracted to men so I told her... "No" ... and gave her some lame excuse that I was cold and these clothes were warm. I did not understand myself. Why was I continuing putting myself in this position?

From my religious upbringing I learned what I was doing was considered a sin. And this message was repeated to me over and over again. This does not help one's self esteem which remained low through out much of my life. Thoughts of suicide were always there but I knew that was also a sin. There was no escape... so I persevered.

Over time I re-evaluated my religious beliefs and did my own research into the issues. I came to the conclusion that The Creator did not hate me for my secret desires. I was special and different. Exactly how I did not know. But I got out of a cult church and got my life together and excelled at my job. And thanks to the internet I found out I was not alone in these desires.

That was about fifteen years ago now and I have learned much since then. I am still spiritual, and know I am blessed in many ways, as I seek the truth about life. I'm also learning more about this desire of mine which is no longer a secret. I've stopped hiding the feminine inside myself and I've allowed her to express herself with clothing and mannerisms. This is the yin and yang of myself that feels more in balance.

I feel more at peace and a happiness of being able to express who I am. I forgive myself of my mistakes in the past and look forward to the future. I've learned the value of a smile no mater what my day might be like or what a person might say.

“You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view... Until you climb inside of his skin and walk around in it.”
― Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird

[Dana7]

personally, self loathing, low self esteem and poor self regard was well conditioned into me, and had nothing to do with any gender issues whatsoever. it stemmed from the need to have my father's approval and support, which was never forthcoming. i pushed myself harder into all kinds of academic and athletic pursuits to try and get some acknowledgement, but no matter what i achieved, no matter how many tests i aced or medals i won, it was never ever good enough.


Marla, you have just described exactly what I felt in my relationship with my own dad. I don't think that crossdressing had anything to do with it either.

I too felt that dressing was a way to feel good, calm and relaxed. It is definitely a comfort for me, although at times I still experience feelings of self loathing. My father never has given me a sense of approval, but I guess that is just part of life.

[Eryn]

... and gave her some lame excuse that I was cold and these clothes were warm...

Oh wow, that strikes a chord. Even while I was in self-enforced denial about my "problem" there were always those excuses, even to myself. Carrying a "man bag" because it was more convenient/roomy/easier on pockets/etc. Wearing panties because they were seamless and prevented irritations. It was my hidden self desperately trying for an outlet, any outlet, that it could find.

In hindsight it is clear what was going on, but if you had asked me at the time I would have vehemently denied it. I am so glad I am beyond that now.