You know where you can stick it.... buddy.

[Jamsey]

My continuing education as Jamsey hit a new low the last time I was out.
I went to my favorite club again, the week after the incident with the boob squeezer. This time I was attractively dressed in a brand new over the knee black skirt, purple patterned top and knee high black leather boots. I also was wearing, for the first time there, some make-up, some foundation, eye shadow, eye brows were penciled, a little blush and lipstick. I'm still rotten at applying it but I thought it was passable, especially in low light.
The club was busy, it was Latina night, with a lot of Latino performers, having a blast dancing to the music. I found a seat at the bar, quietly watched the proceedings, talked occasionally to some of the other patrons. This guy came up, probably in his 30s or so. Not hispanic, they were all polite to me, both female and male. Let me see if I can re-create his thought patterns.

He walks in, scopes out the action, see this woman sitting at the bar alone, Ah, he thinks, there is my target. Getting a little closer he sees it is a male dressed up. All the better he thinks. The closer he gets, he sees that she has to be at least twice his age. Ah, what the heck, no one else around currently so why not?
So he sits at the chair next to her, and, through some kind of fog in his mind, he decided this would be an appropriate openly line.
Hey Babe, you want to suck my #@&*? Apply your own word, you won't be wrong.
After a non-commital response. (I really wanted to tell him where he could stick it, but I'm still new there so didn't want to make a fuss)
Then, for his next line, who knows how his mind operates, he came up with this.
C'mon, that is what all your types are looking for, isn't it?
After somewhat of a more non-commital response, that I think he probably wasn't even aware of what was said, his 3rd comment, a sure fire, can't miss, 100% positive, has to work, offer..
Let's have a couple of shots, that will loosen you up.
I'm sorry, but at that point, I openly laughed at him. I think I may have hurt his itty bitty feelings, but I doubt it. He left, feigning that he saw someone else he knew.
The woman on the other side of me, looked at me when he left, and just laughed too.
I like this club, they have clean bathrooms, you can't underestimate that, and an unisex one too.
They play good music, have interesting shows, make good drinks, but I realize that I should not go alone, or I should find a table or booth away from the bar area. I suppose, just like a gg sitting alone, it is hunting season for any of the players, no matter what the sexual orientation.
I guess I really need a girl friend to go out with. Or find a more quiet establishment where I can go and wear some of the really pretty clothes I have.
So the education continues. I'm looking forward to my next outing. lol

[Michala]

I have the feeling that this guy doesn't have any better luck with other girls. If I wanted to really be with someone, a crossdresser or otherwise I would certainly try to be a little smoother than him. Even if I were dressed and wanted to be with someone, I certainly wouldn't be attracted to a beginning line such as that.

[oliviarub]

what a pick up line!!i wish i would think of it sometimes.
he was off to a great start to that evening.

[Dawn cd]

It might be a generational thing, but it strikes me that when a single girl goes to a club, she is trying to make connections, so it shouldn't come as a complete surprise when a crude customer makes an indecent proposal. It won't happen in a restaurant, or a boutique, or a supermarket, or even a Seven Eleven. So one must either go to the club with a friend (M or F) or in drab. Let's not act astonished when a single F or TG at the bar gets a few f-words planted in her virgin ear.

[Andy66]

You have a complete right to go into a bar and just enjoy the music. Don't let that dummy take that away from you.

[Eryn]

No matter how clean the restrooms, a place where you repeatedly have to fend off undesired approaches isn't the place for you. I suggest that you find another place to go before something really bad happens.

[Cynthia Anne]

I think you handled it just fine! That guy has been alone so much he doesn't know how to talk to a lady! And he always gets what he deserves! KEEP GOING ! Hugs!

[sandra-leigh]

It might be a generational thing, but it strikes me that when a single girl goes to a club, she is trying to make connections, so it shouldn't come as a complete surprise when a crude customer makes an indecent proposal.

Q: What is a four letter word for 'intercourse' that ends with 'k'?
A: "Talk"!

The frequency or acceptability of indecent proposals depends a lot on the establishment. The club I go to most often, if someone were to treat me the way Jamsey was treated, I would just have to lean over the bar and tell the bartender that the person was being offensive, and the person would be asked to leave the bar, and quite possibly told not to come back.

Now I'm not going to innocently claim that my word would be trusted completely "just because it is the right thing to do", but protecting the cross-dressers is the official bar policy, specifically conveyed to to us by successive club presidents. (It happens that my word probably would be trusted: I've been around there long enough to have earned that trust.)

I was indecently proposed to in a completely different establishment, by a severely drunk fellow, who had been indecently proposing to a number of other people; fortunately he was so drunk that he could not be taken seriously. But in that place, the staff just distracted him and jollied him along to not be sitting amongst the patrons. Legally they probably should have asked him to leave (it being illegal to serve alcohol to someone who is drunk), but anyhow. Some of the staff did quietly assure me that they would keep watch to ensure he didn't bother me again.

[Michelia]

You have a complete right to go into a bar and just enjoy the music. Don't let that dummy take that away from you.

I agree. You will find jerks everywhere you go. Some may be rude in an educated way and some are just plain crude. Fortunately I think as long as you are in a pretty nice place this is not likely to happen very often. This guy was a royal SOB. He was probably out to insult you and you did well. As long as the place is nice and you feel safe there, just take it as an experience. One little trick I use is I am very nice and do not let them know how offended I am. I smile and I say I only like girls and I do not like guys at all. I also always have my pepper spray handy and my pepper gun in my purse.

[suchacutie]

Wow...what a super-smooth guy! ROFL!!!

When I'm traveling on business (in drab) I often eat dinner at the bar because getting a table for one is often quite difficult. As a result I will occasionally be hit on, by either gender. Sometimes it's smooth, and sometimes it's quite direct or a bit crude. I just laugh it off in male mode. Don't all of you?

So why is it different when we are our femme selves? Is it different? Should we consider it differently?

I'm not sure I have an answer for these questions.

tina

[Longing2be-Trisha]

He could not even picked up nympho with those lines! lol

Hugs

[Jilmac]

Sounds like another macho jerk with a one track mind

[Debb]

Sounds to me like 'ol smoothy was looking for a fight .. "that's what all your type are looking for" ... Your reaction seems to have worked for you!

[Babeba]

It's completely not right, but short skirts + alone seems to = looking for action to some asshats. Be careful! If something similar happens and you're alone again, ask a bouncer / staff member to walk you to your car or take a taxi from a reputable company.

[sandra-leigh]

In my opinion, your solution was much better than a kick in the chest (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?163523-I-was-careful)!

[Jamsey]

Good responses, as always, some things to think about. I'm just under 6 feet tall. Though I am 63, I do work out, and I'm in pretty good shape for my age, except for a recently acquired few pounds around the middle, don't know where they came from, diet time. I have not been physically intimidated by these, lets call them jerks, that have approached me. I think I am more astonished or surprised about their vulgarity and total lack of tack or class that I have encountered. As a SA I told my experiences about, she stated, Now you see what we go through, some men are pigs.
If I did encounter a situation that may prove more dangerous than I think I could handle I wouldn't hesitate asking the door man or barkeep for assistance. Most of them know me now, and I think would look out for me if a bad situation developed.
I don't wear short skirts or minis out, I have them, wear them in private, but, in public, I don't think they are age appropriate for me. I like to dress nice, I haven't yet dressed sexy in public, and I don't think I give out vibes that say I'm on the make or looking for some action. Except, of course, sitting at the bar alone.
I also have a wierd sense of humor, and I can laugh at myself too, so, a lot of times I can joke out of bad situations, or change the direction of where the conversation is going. I think one of things I have to do is just learning to look at things from a different point of view. Wearing the clothes is one thing, learning to think and behave differently is another. But what heck, I wanted to do this most of my life, can't let a couple bad experiences stop me now, can I?

[Babeba]

Let me rephrase: over the knee skirt and tall boots to some men = on the prowl. Sad, but true.

[Andy66]

Jamsey, I can relate to that. Sometimes people say things that are so outrageous, I'm too surprised to know how to respond. Then hours later I think, "this is what I should have said..." Haha!

Don't ever think though, that as a woman you have to fit into any stereotype, including weak or submissive. As long as you're reinventing yourself, you're like a blank canvas. Become something that you are truly happy with - even if that has to be a tough broad sometimes. ;)

[Tina B.]

A suggestion, if you find yourself going into a bar alone dressed, a trick my wife used in the old days was, sit at the bar, hiding at a table never works, nuts find you anyway. Sit next to where the cocktail waitress pick up their orders, and talk to the bartender, and waitresses, after they get to know you a little, you have a built in buddy system, and a good bartender will shut a guy like that down, for a regular he knows. After all you have a right to go out, and the bar wants your money, and sorry but if your going to be a girl, it's something you have to learn to deal with. Oh, and the wife had a policy of never accepting a drink from strangers, and if they insisted on sending her a drink she would send one back, with a message, now we're even, lets keep it that way. Just another way of saying, leave me alone, jerk.
Tina B.

[ashlylynn]

It might be a generational thing, but it strikes me that when a single girl goes to a club, she is trying to make connections, so it shouldn't come as a complete surprise when a crude customer makes an indecent proposal. It won't happen in a restaurant, or a boutique, or a supermarket, or even a Seven Eleven. So one must either go to the club with a friend (M or F) or in drab. Let's not act astonished when a single F or TG at the bar gets a few f-words planted in her virgin ear.

DING DING DING ... we have a winner!

Eloquently summarized: the reason crossdressing is not appropriate for nightclubs - it's the mentality with which the typical patron enters:
The GGs are SEEKING male attention and the guys are there to give it to them - and so crossdressing there has a trend of causing violence
when the male acts as expected and is humiliated ( social status thretened and sexual orientation questioned by peers ) when he does not
know he is appraoching a person with a penis. What does an alpha male in a club with a few drinks in him do to another male who makes
him angry?

The OP is very lucky that it went as well as it did.

There are certain places that boys should not dress like girls. It is for everyone's best interest...
The public and the other crossdressers.

As Dawn pointed out ... you can go to a restaurant, or a boutique, or a supermarket, or even a Seven Eleven
... or even a PUB ... ANYWHERE that there is not an INHERENT PURPOSE / EXPECTATION of male hooking up
with GENETIC female in a DARK room. Otherwise, you're playing with fire.

Though I do suspect the guy who asked you to suck his #@&*?
was either a closet homo or one of the a-hole alphas who would
put his #@&*? in the mouth of his best buddy who passed-out
drunk and take photos of it and email them to everyone.
All about control.


It's completely not right, but short skirts + alone seems to = looking for action to some asshats. Be careful! If something similar happens and you're alone again, ask a bouncer / staff member to walk you to your car or take a taxi from a reputable company.

CAUTION: In some places, those bouncers will beat the &^#%$ out of you on the way for being a guy in a dress who is making them look like THEY work in a "GAY BAR".


No matter how clean the restrooms, a place where you repeatedly have to fend off undesired approaches isn't the place for you. I suggest that you find another place to go before something really bad happens.


This is good advice for all.


You have a complete right to go into a bar and just enjoy the music. Don't let that dummy take that away from you.

A bar - yes.
A pub, tavern, jazz club, blues club, airport lounge ...

A nightclub with a DJ .... ? A "right" ... I won't disagree.

However. ... a white guy has a right to walk through East L.A.
carrying a big banner that says "I hate ( Hispanics / Blacks / etc etc )"
just as a black man has a RIGHT to go ALONE to a southern state
and protest in front of a known KKK meeting location at midnight.

But is it a GOOD IDEA?
Is it DANGEROUS?
And will THE RESULT have an effect on how
these groups will relate in THE FUTURE?

You have the right to go into the woods and try to pat the bears and cougars but when you understand the psychology of those groups IN THE WILD ...

[Babeba]

CAUTION: In some places, those bouncers will beat the &^#%$ out of you on the way for being a guy in a dress who is making them look like THEY work in a "GAY BAR".

Probably not an issue in a place that has both a unisex bathroom and a men's room.

Other than the fact said bouncer is going to be easier to trace by police if something bad happens on your way home than some random pervert who followed you or waited for you to leave... After all, a place where the staff paid to keep people safe actually beats them up can't afford that reputation, the bouncer WOULD get caught and fired, and even the 'stigma' of working in 'a gay bar' isn't as bad as losing your job for being a homophobic asshat, or arrested for perpetrating a hate crime if the victim feels up to the criminal trial. If it makes you feel more comfy, ask your server which of the staff it'd be best to ask for escort. They would know, especially if female.

To be honest, if your thoughts are that everyone is likely to beat you up if you step outside in a dress, then maybe you shouldn't be wearing that dress outside until you're more okay with yourself and the surroundings.

[Jamsey]

Sorry for the confusion, I should have been more clear, this club is a gay bar, though because of the shows they put on they get a broad crosssection of clientele. The guy that approached me was definitely gay. As were the other jerks I met there, but that is not to say I haven't met a lot of really nice people of all sexual orientations, more of them than the jerks.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

sorry that happened to you..

unfortunately that is what is gonna happen... gay bar or not...a crossdresser sitting alone at the bar has a big target on her back...

it's just the way it is...the more dressed up you are, the more you will stick out...

there is NOWHERE that you can get dressed up and hang out alone without the risk of a bad, worse or worst experience...

as you say, there are nice people too, and you can have lots of good experiences, but the unfair reality is that one or two bad experiences will impact your night out..

[ReineD]

C'mon, that is what all your types are looking for, isn't it?

Herein lies the problem.

And if any of these guys come to this forum and read the "do you want to have sex with men when you're dressed" threads, their opinions will be reinforced. :straightface:

[Shelly Preston]

When you look like a lady there is always the chance you will get some attention in any bar.

I think you just had the misfortune to be the target of a guy with no manners.

You just have to try let them know you not interested without being rude if you can.

[Sophie86]

Herein lies the problem.

And if any of these guys come to this forum and read the "do you want to have sex with men when you're dressed" threads, their opinions will be reinforced. :straightface:

You don't mean that, because some CDs imagine they might enjoy sex with a male, that means they deserve to be crudely propositioned when they go out to a club en femme, do you?

[ReineD]

^ No, not at all.

I'm saying that if admirers spend any time reading the fantasy threads here and in other places online, they will continue assuming "this is what all your types are looking for, isn't it?", as quoted.

Or, maybe the admirers get that impression because there are a lot of CDs in tranny bars who are happy to oblige? I don't know about this since I don't hang out in such places, but I do read many threads here. :p

[DonniDarkness]

fantasy threads here and in other places online, they will continue assuming "this is what all your types are looking for, isn't it?",
Reine is right here. How many sites do you think there are out there who cater to people with TG fantasies? She is just stating the obvious.

Second, i know im going to catch hell for this but im going to outright say it. As jerkish as this guy was about his approach, at least he was honest and straightforward. Then after the op declined, he left her alone. Thast makes him a predator? or just a jerk whos not afraid to just say what he wants? Was it appropriate?.....absolutely not.

Some of the fantasy stories ive read are just about exactly the same....except they end a little differently.

-Donni-

[Sophie86]

^ No, not at all.

I'm saying that if admirers spend any time reading the fantasy threads here and in other places online, they will continue assuming "this is what all your types are looking for, isn't it?", as quoted.

Only if they're ignoring all the other threads in which the hetero CDs are saying, "No way, NE-VER!"

We're a diverse bunch. :)


Or, maybe the admirers get that impression because there are a lot of CDs in tranny bars who are happy to oblige? I don't know about this since I don't hang out in such places, but I do read many threads here. :p

I wouldn't know either. I've never picked anyone up, or been picked up, whether en femme or in drab. I don't have any first hand knowledge about goes on, and my second hand knowledge is about male/female hookups.


Reine is right here. How many sites do you think there are out there who cater to people with TG fantasies? She is just stating the obvious.

There are sites out there that cater to male/female fantasies too, but you wouldn't say that a guy is correct to make such assumptions about women.


Second, i know im going to catch hell for this but im going to outright say it. As jerkish as this guy was about his approach, at least he was honest and straightforward. Then after the op declined, he left her alone. Thast makes him a predator? or just a jerk whos not afraid to just say what he wants?

No, I agree. He was a man on a mission, and he was very straightforward in stating what he wanted. I actually have a problem with the OP's "non-committal" responses. The guy was on a schedule, and she was wasting valuable time. Just tell him 'no', and let him move on.

Although I've never had to fend off such a pass myself, I've dealt with a lot of phone solicitors, and it's kind of the same thing. You have to make your 'no' emphatic, or they will just keep trying to make the sale. All that does is waste your time, and theirs. :p


Was it appropriate?.....absolutely not.

And I guess that depends on your view of what ought to go on in clubs. Those who use them as a meat market will see the OP's response as something like: "OMG! I went to a car dealership, and the salesman just up and asked me if I wanted to buy a CAR!" Those who want to be able to hang out in the club, listen to music, dance, and socialize without being asked to perform sex acts on someone will definitely view such behavior as inappropriate.

[Stephanie47]

Frankly there are many guys and dolls on the prowl who do not want to waste time "courting" their hookup. They want to get to the chase right away rather than spend $$$ and come up with nothing for their efforts. And, if you think you do not get crude remarks elsewhere, you haven't ridden the New York City subway. I was totally in guy mode and not even a practicing cross dresser yet, and, some guy offered to suck my @#$% (fill in the blank). And, as an older guy you definitely encounter "mature" women trolling the vegetable aisle in the supermarkets.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

this forum is not a good cross section of crossdressers.
there is alot of sex and hookups in the crossdressing community, and the people having the sex are not your average crossdressers.com forum poster..
there are many message boards and forums that are sex related and very highly populated..

as i traveled from the closet to the mall to the bars to the events, i was hit on primarily by crossdressers...

if you are straight and uninterested in any kind of sexuality when dressed..i bet you never go to those bars anyway....

there is a bottom line...it is not fair...but if you go to a bar dressed and alone, the assumption is you want something....and if you have a male hook up fantasy, and its only a fantasy,
a bar is the absolute LAST place you want to be alone and chatting with any guy...

i can't say this with certainty, but isn't it the same for gg's as well???

[ReineD]

Sophie, do you know what's out there? This site and a few other CD boards are islands in a sea of hook-up sites for CDs & men.

I can't post a link due to content, but when you google "crossdresser porn", you are served 7 million results with pics galore of TGs doing you know what with men and with each other ... not with GGs.

That's not mentioning the thousands of over 18 Yahoo chat rooms for CDs/TSs & admirers where they organize live meetups and parties, plus thousands of other chat rooms including the one associated with cd.com. You should join one or two. You will not find GGs hanging out there, and believe me, your eyes will be opened.

And it didn't take me long at all to find these dating sites. I guarantee you the purpose isn't to meet GGs (except maybe URNA where some CDs do try to meet GGs, although there are plenty more who are there for men).

http://www.dateacrossdresser.com/

http://tgdate.org/trialOpen_0.htm

http://transgenderdate.com/index.php

http://www.transpassions.com/

http://transgendered-personals.com/

http://www.tsgirlfriend.com/

http://urnotalone.com/

Not to mention the Craig's List "t" categories: t4m, m4t, t4mw, mw4t. Funny they don't have any t4w. :p

The statistics say the majority of Crossdressers are hetero. But, I'm afraid the hetero (?), FAITHFUL, married CDs aren't the visible ones, when you go out there and see what's available.

So, I really do understand why admirers think "this is what all your types are looking for, isn't it?", as quoted above. They're online and in tranny bars too.

[DonniDarkness]

There are sites out there that cater to male/female fantasies too, but you wouldn't say that a guy is correct to make such assumptions about women.

No. Inappropriate is Inappropriate. Fantasies are not reality, some have a hard time discerning one from the other. However this guy obviously had a fantasy about sex with a crossdresser. Some crossdressers do like men, he didnt know the OP wasnt interested.

Besides we wouldnt want to assume that ALL women have male/female fantasies exclusively.....and truth be told there is only one way to find out...ASK


that depends on your view of what ought to go on in clubs.

Doesnt matter, appropriate is appropriate. He could have still propositioned the op and not been a crude and tasteless conversation. "Hi, i think your attractive. Are you interested in any company this evening?.....No? Well, can i buy you a drink instead?....."

Still very straight forward and to the point.

But your right if your going to the clubs alone your going to get hit on. Ive been hit on in guy mode while out clubbing with my wife.... butt grabbers, inappropriate propositions, comments, ive even been goosed..... it happens(<--Tall thin femmy guy with tattoos)....but you have to remeber your in a place that single people do go to to hook up. I agree that the op shouldnt be shocked to get hit on, only the manner in which it was presented should have been shocking.

-Donni-

[ReineD]

When my SO and I were first dating, we went to a tranny/gay bar in the next town over. My SO had never been there before. We were sitting at the bar, when someone brought a napkin with a message on it, placed it between the two of us, and pointed to some creepy looking guy sitting behind us. I opened up the napkin, full of curiosity *naive me*, and it was a proposition. Not for us, but for my SO!

Imagine my surprise ... I had never even been to a gay bar before, and so the concept that someone would proposition my SO *while I'm right there sitting next to her* was an eye opener for me.

Another time we were at our local gay bar, and some dude had eyes only for my SO and they spent a long time talking together. I kinda felt like an outsider until I forced myself into the conversation, and then I discovered that I had actually heard of this guy from a female friend of mine. He had not treated her well at all.

My SO never wanted to go back to the first place again, although we have gone back to the local bar for the drag shows. There was one of those Yahoo group T-girl parties she wanted to go to in a different town though, to see what it was about, but she changed her mind. I'm glad she did. I think that something in our relationship would had changed if she had gone. A part of me would have closed off from her.

[Sophie86]

The statistics say the majority of Crossdressers are hetero. But, I'm afraid the hetero (?), FAITHFUL, married CDs aren't the visible ones, when you go out there and see what's available.

So, I really do understand why admirers think "this is what all your types are looking for, isn't it?", as quoted above. They're online and in tranny bars too.

I don't understand what your point is, unless you're suggesting that more hetero, faithfully married crossdressers should come out of the closet in order to counteract the negative stereotype created by internet porn.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I don't understand what your point is, unless you're suggesting that more hetero, faithfully married crossdressers should come out of the closet in order to counteract the negative stereotype created by internet porn.

Well what is your point?
You brought up the idea that reine said the op "deserved" it....and people are demonstRating that it's a reality of the bar scene...and if a heterosexual cross dresser wants to enjoy dressing at a bar, it's a tough situation....and the reason is that lots of cd's go to the bars for just that...

[ReineD]

I don't understand what your point is, unless you're suggesting that more hetero, faithfully married crossdressers should come out of the closet in order to counteract the negative stereotype created by internet porn.

Thanks, Kaitlin. :)

My point? It is what it is. It's not just the porn, it's the behaviors of all the CDs who are in it for the sex. I didn't make these people up, they're out there in droves (see my prior post), and this is why obnoxious guys in bars believe, "This is what all your types are looking for, isn't it." In other words, this guy's expectations are understandable, given what he knows based on the internet and the parties or bars he likely goes to.

What will change this? You tell me. :)

But if someone doesn't want to get hit on, they should go to places where admirers aren't looking for Tgirls. Or, they should develop firm ways of establishing boundaries.

EDIT

We had a thread, I think in Loved Ones, from a GG who was upset that her bf's femme profile kept getting hit on on facebook by the same type that was in the OP's bar. Ask any CD who has a public profile and they'll tell you how many guys proposition them, assuming they're in it for the sex. The only way to stop this is to keep the profiles private and only accept friend requests from people you know. But, there are many CDs who are in it for the sex, who do like getting hit on, and so these admirers will continue to think "this is what all your types are looking for, isn't it."

[Anita Luken]

Hi Jamsey, You look great in your picture. Sounds like the Cardinal bar where you had trouble with the Perv.. I have been there several times and felt welcome. So sorry he ruined your day. Maybe we will run into each other there sometime. Would love to talk. Anita

[Sophie86]

Thanks, Kaitlin. :)

My point? It is what it is. It's not just the porn, it's the behaviors of all the CDs who are in it for the sex. I didn't make these people up, they're out there in droves (see my prior post), and this is why obnoxious guys in bars believe, "This is what all your types are looking for, isn't it." In other words, this guy's expectations are understandable, given what he knows based on the internet and the parties or bars he likely goes to.

Everything you've said here could be said about women. Women work in the porn industry. Women post seductive pictures on their FB profiles, and collect admirers. Women go out to bars dressed in trashy ways, and let guys pick them up for one night stands.

So the next time you're in a bar, and some jerk asks you if you want to suck his #@$%, don't be shocked. It's just a situation "you women" have created.


But if someone doesn't want to get hit on, they should go to places where admirers aren't looking for Tgirls. Or, they should develop firm ways of establishing boundaries.

You give your female friends the same advice, right?


Ask any CD who has a public profile and they'll tell you how many guys proposition them, assuming they're in it for the sex.

I don't have to ask, I have a Facebook profile. I have exactly two non-CD male friends on it, neither of which have ever hit on me. I don't get swarms of friend requests from non-CD males, but the ones I do get, I've learned to ignore.

[ReineD]

If you're thinking that I'm accusing all CDs of being in it for sex, I'm not. Just a large chunk. This isn't a fetish or a dating site, but it doesn't mean that fetish CDs don't exist.

There may have been a time when men assumed that all GGs were "loose", and a woman in a bar warranted crude behavior. I guess there was a time when there were two separate doors to the bars, one for "gents", and one for "ladies & gents". Nice women didn't go in unaccompanied. Actually, it hasn't been that long since rape attitudes have changed, to dismiss the idea that if a woman was raped it was because she "asked" for it. Women have come a long way since the days when we were seen as objects.

Unfortunately, this is not the case for CDers. By and large, many people in our society, especially the admirers, believe the majority of the CDers are in it for the sex. And the truth is, it appears as if there is a higher percentage of the total CDs who are in it for the sex than are women who do the same. See all the resources in my prior post ... the chat rooms, the meet-up sites, the porn, even some of the threads here, etc.

Do some women do these things? Yes, there are women in the porn industry, which is predominately geared to men. Are women into porn? I'm no expert, but I'm guessing that women like to watch porn with their bfs. Do women look for sex with other women as much as CDs look for sex with men? If they do, they're certainly a lot more quiet about it. :p

[Kaitlyn Michele]

we aren't talking about women...we are talking about cd's
we arent' talking about a person's right to sit alone at a bar with out being propositioned, we are talking about what happened and why you should expect that its gonna happen..

i never said that i condone a guy walking up to you and talking dirty talk...i said it happens.....the OP's story was a good description of something that happened...i'm sorry that happened ...if she goes again, there is a good chance it will happen again...

i said that cd's sitting alone at a bar have a target on them...that lots of cd's want to be targets, that there is nothing wrong with that..and that hetero cd's that want to hang out at bars need to deal with it...it is what it is.

btw women do not generally go to bars alone...let alone hang out all night on a bar stool by themselves...

[Sophie86]

There may have been a time when men assumed that all GGs were "loose", and a woman in a bar warranted crude behavior.

Well, I'm glad those days are behind us.

I still have a mental image of a girl I saw once on the dance floor of a bar. She was "dancing" with two guys, by which I mean she was simulating sex with them. I don't mean that she was rubbing up against them suggestively, I mean they were acting out a very popular threesome position complete with hip thrusts and head bobs.

But not all women go to bars for the sex. Just a large chunk.

[ReineD]

Well, on the lighter side, my SO and I went to a drag show and during the intermission, 6 younger women got up on stage and mimicked lesbian sexual positions in their dancing. They were also clothed rather suggestively, and they had every eye on the place riveted on them, which was their sole reason for doing this. LOL. My mother would have been *shocked* to see this.

And I know a few of these women. They are straighter than door nails. But, they also know that guys think it is incredibly sexy to see two women being sexual together. :p

The times' they are a changin', with all the grinding, bumping, and suggestive wear among the younger crowd, compared to even a decade ago. But, this is all show.

Sophie if you want to believe that CDs aren't after sex any more than women, then I think you just aren't opening your eyes.

[Sophie86]

Sophie if you want to believe that CDs aren't after sex any more than women, then I think you just aren't opening your eyes.

What I believe, Reine, is that if a female friend related a similar story to you, you would have reacted with shock at the man's behavior. You would have said that it was really wrong of him to say such a thing to her. You would not have suggested that the way young women currently behave makes the man's behavior "understandable".

I honestly didn't know you had such a negative view of crossdressers.

[ReineD]

What I believe, Reine, is that if a female friend related a similar story to you, you would have reacted with shock at the man's behavior. You would have said that it was really wrong of him to say such a thing to her. You would not have suggested that the way young women currently behave makes the man's behavior "understandable".

I honestly didn't know you had such a negative view of crossdressers.

Well, actually, I would have said, "just ignore him, he's a jerk".

I also would have asked her to tell me what preceded this. What was she wearing, did she engage him in conversation that would make most men feel as if she might be interested. Believe it or not, a lot of men have huge egos and things are pretty black and white for them. Wise women learn to judge character and nip it in the bud when they see it coming. In other words, we know there is not "just a little bit of fun flirting" with the jerks. It's all or nothing for them, and so we don't encourage any of it.

Also, I know that women aren't responsible for the world's jerks, and it is true that when we get treated poorly by men it's not because we "asked for it", but still, there are things we can do to minimize our risks.

By this I mean there was a story of a young college student who was gang raped. Yes, each and every one of those boys needed to be kicked out of school and suffer the full strength of legal ramifications for what they did. But, it turns out the young girl in question got severely drunk at a frat party and she was wearing suggestive clothing. She would have avoided herself a lot of pain had she been wiser about her surroundings, her behavior, and her choice of clothing. It's true that she shouldn't be penalized for her naivete, but honestly, what was she thinking, being alone, drunk, and scantily clad at a frat party? It's not a position I would ever put myself in.

[eluuzion]

What I believe, Reine, is that if a female friend related a similar story to you, you would have reacted with shock at the man's behavior. You would have said that it was really wrong of him to say such a thing to her. You would not have suggested that the way young women currently behave makes the man's behavior "understandable".

I honestly didn't know you had such a negative view of crossdressers.


I did not interpret Reine’s comments as voicing any personal views about Cders. I interpreted her posts as just stating the obvious, based upon supported evidence. I believe it was meant as an objective presentation of reality, (which I happen to agree with) not a subjective personal perspective on her part (as you have implied). I have certainly not read anything RD has posted on the forum that ever suggested to me that she has a negative opinion of Crossdressers in general. I have found the opposite to be the case.

Your last statement is a personal perspective and subjective opinion leveled at RD that I do not happen to share.

Nothing personal intended here. You are certainly entitled to voice your opinion and I respect that. But sometimes I feel compelled to do the same. This is one of those times…where we can just agree to disagree without being disagreeable, eh? :hugs:

:love:

[sara.s]

Reine is correct in the sense that public perception of CDers is mostly associated with Craigslist, gay bars, crossdresser dating sites etc so it is quite natural for a third person to wrongly assume a TS/CD (who is out dressed) to be gay and in it for sex.

[skirtsuit]

In my experience, there are really, really creepy idiotic men everywhere but they are fortunately uncommon. There is a small subset of men who are simply complete jerks during the day & night. I only go out during the day and every once in while some a$$hole will stop in his tracks and pivot and maybe pull his sunglasses down or some such thing, which makes me want to kick him in the 'nads but I'm a proper lady so I just smile and walk past. I think the best response to such people is to ignore them or do as a pretty woman might do and try to make them feel as small and stoopid as possible.

Best,
SS

[Nicole Erin]

that guy probably had a tiny wingily wang anyways.
Male reproductive organ is called a "penis" but some guys like the creeps have an "inadequacy".

[docrobbysherry]

Ok, maybe it's time to get back to Jamsey's thread!?

I think u handle yourself beautifully, Jamsey! I wish I had your confidence to be out at clubs dressed, alone!

[AllieSF]

I have been in several clubs and bars and have never really seen that type of situation. I think that the guy was more than way overboard in his actions and that the bartender should be notified and let them handle the guy. That is why, when possible I try to get to know the bartender, even if I do not know if I will ever be back. Not all men nor guys are like that. As the saying goes, one bad apple can ruin the barrel.

[Loni]

Q: What is a four letter word for 'intercourse' that ends with 'k'?
A: "Talk"!

The frequency or acceptability of indecent proposals depends a lot on the establishment. The club I go to most often, if someone were to treat me the way Jamsey was treated, I would just have to lean over the bar and tell the bartender that the person was being offensive, and the person would be asked to leave the bar, and quite possibly told not to come back.

Now I'm not going to innocently claim that my word would be trusted completely "just because it is the right thing to do", but protecting the cross-dressers is the official bar policy, specifically conveyed to to us by successive club presidents. (It happens that my word probably would be trusted: I've been around there long enough to have earned that trust.)

I was indecently proposed to in a completely different establishment, by a severely drunk fellow, who had been indecently proposing to a number of other people; fortunately he was so drunk that he could not be taken seriously. But in that place, the staff just distracted him and jollied him along to not be sitting amongst the patrons. Legally they probably should have asked him to leave (it being illegal to serve alcohol to someone who is drunk), but anyhow. Some of the staff did quietly assure me that they would keep watch to ensure he didn't bother me again.

doing the devil thing. maybe it was a good thing to keep him there till he was not so drunk..could save a life or six on the rd.

[Jamsey]

Hmmm, didn't expect all this when I started the thread. I thought I handled the situation pretty well, nobody got hurt, no scene, no drama, the jerks feelings might have been momentarily hurt, but I bet he got over it real fast.

I don't like porn and haven't watched much since I was in my early 20s. I find it boring and repetitive. But, to further my education I went and purchased some tgirl porn, 3 for $9.99. Never seen any before and I wanted to see what it was about before I commented on it. Well, after the first couple of minutes, how is tgirl porn different from any other porn? That is, if the clothes the tgirl is wearing actually stay on her for that long. Boring.
The porn I watched in the late 60s, peep show stuff where you kept feeding quarters, because I was young and inexperienced, I was interested. In the early 70s, porn, or soft core, became more mainstream. I am Curious Yellow, O, Behind the Green Door, the Opening of Misty Beethoven, etc, probably have some of the names wrong, started playing in regular theatres and attracted a more diverse group of people, just not the perverts in raincoats. lol. It resulted in regular movies having more nudity and sexual scenes, and as a result, I think, the regular porn movies went back to what they did best.
Look at porn now, how is one porno flick really any different from any other? The tgirl stuff, same thing, from my small sample. What does that have to do with anything, I don't know, just rambling because it was brought up.

I do have to rethink what, where and how I choose to crossdress now. The place I go to has drag shows almost every saturday, and I find them fun and entertaining. I figured, probably wrongly, that if there are a lots of drag queens running around, that a guy in a dress wouldn't be that noticeable. Maybe, instead of wearing nice, matching outfits, maybe I should dress in the outlandish drag queen outfits. I have a couple outfits, I think, that would give them a run for their money. But maybe not, because they aren't short enough.

I'm a little depresseed now, have to think it through.

Thanks to all for all the varying opinions, comments and viewpoints.
Big hugs,
Jamsey

[ReineD]

I'm a little depresseed now, have to think it through.

I'm sorry for playing a part in taking your thread off track. Maybe I should not have made that first comment.

I hope you're not depressed because of this thread. :hugs:

Anyway, here's another way to look at it. Some bars have more admirers than others. Is this place full of guys like that or was he the odd one? If the rest of your evening was spent having a good time with the other patrons there, then I'll tell you the same thing I'd tell a GG. Just ignore him, he's a jerk. And next time he comes up to you, don't even chat him up. Just tell him you're not interested.

But, if this sort of thing happens a lot there (like I said earlier, some places are geared towards CDs & admirers), then maybe you could find a different bar. Our local GLBT bar has drag shows. It's predominately a gay bar, so most of the men there are not interested in CDs. There are also many hetero couples who go there on drag show nights, so it then becomes more like an alternative bar. You might also like to check out the lesbian bars.

Good luck! :)

Edit .. here's a list of bars in the Madison area:
http://www.quest-online.com/NewFiles/BarGuide.html

And this looks like a pretty good write up:
http://gaytravel.about.com/od/gaynightlifeoverviews/qt/Mad_Gay_Bars.htm

Stay away from the leather bars. Check out Walker's Pint in Milwaukee, if it's not too far. It's a lesbian bar.

[AllieSF]

Jamsey, I think that you handled it just fine. Yes, I still do recommend letting the bartender know, which is good for that moment and for the future. You would also find out real quick if the bar/club cares about your personal safety. I have been to some dive bars with no problems. I have had my butt (padding so no real feeling on my part) squeezed once, but it was by someone that I had just spent several hours talking to in a group. I was not insulted, nor felt threatened. It was all good natured fun at that moment and it went no further, and I would not have let that happen. So, don't alter your thought processes just yet, nor your going out routine. Being aware and having some street sense is needed when we go out to the really fun places. Have fun and thanks for an interesting thread.

[Babeba]

I went and re-read the OP- in the course of one whole evening, if you only had one guy come and ask you (without trying to touch you) something you did not like, you're winning there. It sucks that he was persistent-but, well, eventually you'll have a stockpile of weirdo stories to share on those girls' nights.

It doesn't matter where you are or how new there you are, Jamsey, saying 'no, thank you' is always a good option.

[StarrOfDelite]

Herein lies the problem.

And if any of these guys come to this forum and read the "do you want to have sex with men when you're dressed" threads, their opinions will be reinforced. :straightface:

And, speaking of which, where is Sean's comment on this thread?

[ReineD]

^ Shhhhhhhh!!!! :shush: (If we're very quiet, maybe he won't see this thread).

[Jamsey]

Well, I won't have much opportunity to dress over the next couple of months anyway. I'm pretty involved in the Wisconsin Recall Governor Walker and LT Governor drive, and I'm volunteering a lot of hours to help out. It is absolutely scary and disheartening what he and his Republican cohorts have done to Wisconsin in the almost year since he was elected. He has no respect for anyone except the rich, no matter how many commercials the rich people pay for saying otherwise. (say Koch Brothers) He hasn't directly attacked the LGBT community yet, but if this recall fails, and given some of the comments already coming out of certain areas of the state, there is no telling what may happen in the next 2 years of his rule. He has a lot of people scared, with attacks on Medicaid, Medicare, and Badger Care, a program to help the uninsured, inlcuding 1000's of kids, which he is ending.
Sorry, I don't think this is the right forum for this, but I'm blowing off steam, well I would if I wasn't so cold from standing outside trying to get signatures, lol.
Big hug to all.
Jamsey.

[Anita Luken]

Jamsey, I have been in the Rotunda since day 2 of the protests and at the singalongs regularly in male mode unfortunately but always underdressed. So exciting.

[Alice Torn]

To me, going pretty to ANY bar, is like jumping into a pond full of pirrannas! I can't get myself to go to a bar. Alcoholism has caused big trouble in my family, and with my relationships, too. I am thinking of going to some symphony concerts dressed up. Getting read there, people are not allowed to make noise, and they will have to be quiet about me, until after the concert!! Seriosly, there would be a higher caliber of people there, too. I don't understand why anyone would go to a loud club to meet pople. It is too loud to hear yourself, even!

[Jamsey]

Anita, isn't that funny, I have been down to the Rotunda a lot too, to the singalongs occasionally, though I seem to miss all the fun ones, where someone causes a ruckus. One of my best friends, Diane W, has been to most of them, she is our age, and hands out singalong books. You probably know her and I may know you oo. Isn't life strange. I have been to many of the major rallies there, though I'm missing todays because I'm collecting signatures locally.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

you did handle it well jamsey...

i think its a valid point to make though that as a hetero sole dresser, you will have to deal with this over and over... which frankly i can understand how this is disappointing..

[faltenrock]

I just found this very interesting threat. During my many visits to clubs and bars, I've experienced a lot of different chats and contacts with people, GG's, other CD's, TS's and men. Usually, if there is someone interested to chat or in me, because I'm a CD, I know how to handle the situation. Generally, I don't feel comfortable, if a guy shows sexual interest, I'm a married heterosexual guy. At my age, it might be easier to deal with these situations.
For example, I went to a club about 10 days ago. I've been there 5 or 6 times already and always enjoyed the atmosphere, music and dancing. It's a gay club with many lesbian and homosexual couples, but also many heterosexual people as well, a mixed crowd. Normally there are a few drag queens or very few CD's like myself.

However, as soon as I had a drink and sat at a table, it was still not very crowded, another CD came up to me and took the next seat. He started talking to me, which was difficult, his English was bad and he didn't speak any German. The club is in Holland. It didn't take very long and he asked for my sexual orientation. I told him I'm not bi or gay. He still tried to convince me to go out to another place with him. I rejected and said I like the atmosphere and that I intended to dance later on. After another few minutes he left the club.

I don't mind talking to those people, as long as it is just a conversation with a smart and polite person but that's it.
Anyone going to clubs like that one in Holland or any other places where admirers will go need to keep in mind what some people are looking for. Be always prepared for something and be careful when you leave the place on your own.