Bisexuality & Crossdressing

[FurPus63]

I'm might as well let you girls know that I'm Bi. I'm wondering if there are others who are Bi as well? It's my understanding that most of you are Hetro. Am I correct or the "oddball" here? Can I still be accepted here? I'm hoping so and thinking it should be ok. I just want to ad. Unlike others who are Bi I'm not into this just for sex or turn-ons. It's really about trying to be the best girly-girl I can be. It really is about experiencing being a woman. That's my ultimate goal. If sex with a man or a woman comes about as a result it will be due to good friendship. I'm not into this for sexual reasons.

Paulette.

[Julie8181]

Hi Paulette. I am as well. I'd say that I am bigender and bisexual at the same time. That is, I'm interested in dating men while en femme and women while en homme. I don't know if there are many bisexual crossdressers, but we are here and there. I certainly accept you and I think the ladies here are very supportive of all the diversity that the forum has to offer. Thank you for speaking out! - Julie

[Cherry Lynn]

I am in the same category as you.

[Noemi]

Hello Paulette,
Of course you are welcome. This can be a great place, ok it is a great place. And a valuable resource fomoinfo. Say what you like about sexuality, you will find some wisened folks here that will tell you exactly what they think too.
There are many Cd'ers that are married and hetro, quite a few. But there are allot of Tg'ed folks too. I am more girl than guy, but still present as male.
It is good to talk, a confusing thing this TG stuff is. Last night I said...that's it, no more, I am letting my body hair grow back and I am not painting my nails, no night gowns and bras and boobies tonight..I 'll never be a girl..but really I am already a girl. I just do not have time to invest in looking pretty, I am busy, but still.........Anyway honey you are welcome Here.
I was gonna post that I want to quit dressing up but who am I kidding. I am going to go right into it this time, that will help me, acceptance and freedom!

[eluuzion]

Yes you are an oddball. We are all perfectly well-adjusted, normal members of society that never do anything that is not socially acceptable to the conformed society we live in.

Yes, most of "us" are obsessed with telling everybody we are totally hetero, even when nobody even asks us that question in a thread...:heehee: And...you know that nobody "lies" on the Internet, so we are all telling the truth...:brolleyes:

And if you believe any of that nonsense...I have a nice bridge for sale that you can purchase to live under...:D:tongueout:D

If anything is apparent on this forum, it is that there is no such thing as an "oddball" around here...:battingeyelashes:

Welcome to the party...:hugs:

:love:

[Niya W]

I must be an odd ball or just have a bi magnet attached to me. I'd say about 25-30% I know are bi. What I have not encountered yet is a gay CD.

[12Andy777]

I was worrying the same thing as you! Yes I am Bi also (or at least Bi curious...I seem to be attracted to women a bit more than men - but I'm still struggling to fully understand it all...) It's good to see there are a few more here as well :).

[prene]

I always thought I was straight.
But because I have fantasised about being a girl being with a guy. I think I am bi-curious. I guess.
If I was a woman i know i would be a lesbian.

Who knows and does it really matter?

[shybi]

hi paulette

yes i'm bi welcome to the party

wendy xxx

[Princess Chantal]

Some people that are not aware of pansexuality may categorize my sexuality as bisexual. Which is fine and dandy. However, I have an attraction to all gender identities not just limited to the male and female gender identities.

[Shari]

Welcome Paulette.
I suppose I'm bi-curious. I fantasize about being with a man primarily when dressed. When it finally happens, or if it ever happens, then I can be classified as bi-sexual.
Is that the way it works, or am I bi now just for thinking about it?
So many labels, so much to choose from, so much to aspire to.
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
That's it. I'm a rose.

[erickka]

Paulette, there is, in my opinion, no such thing as "normal" because nobody has been able to define it yet. Therefore you can't be classified as an oddball. A warm welcome to you, so c'mon in and enjoy the ride! This place and the folks here are great.

[Aprilrain]

I'm TS but I thought I was a CDer for awhile. I would have claimed that I was a heterosexual male in the past. I got the hetero part right anyway:heehee: well mostly hetero but I like girls too I just wouldn't want to be in a relationship with one. Girls can be so freaking tedious! :battingeyelashes: unlike many people her who say they are only attracted to men while dressed as a woman my sexual fantasies have been pretty consistent since puberty. In them I have always been a girl with a guy, it has never mattered what I was wearing.

[miaTX86]

I am probably bi-sexual, but am more likely pan-sexual.

[Tina B.]

Welcome Paulette, as you can see you are not alone, I'm hetero, but don't hold that against me, and I won't hold your being Bi against you.lol This site is about Gender, not sex, so I don't see where your sexual preference has a lot to do with it. Now from time to time, things do get talked about where sex does come up, but believe me, where it does, every side of the sexual equation will be covered. So jump on in and speak up!
Tina B.

[kimdl93]

don't feel alone. I think there are as quite a few bi and gay members...pretty much in the same proportion as the larger society. Like many of us, I had a bi fling in my youth and although I'm in a hetero LTR, I still consider myself bi in terms of inclination.

[AndreaCD1963]

For me, sexuality and clothing choices are two separate things. I too am bi, and my SO knows it. I told her as part of the same conversation when I told her about the "other side" of my closet :-). But, as I said, being bi is not related at all to being a CD - I'm attracted to GG's and males when I'm drab and when I'm femme.

[OKPink]

I have enjoyed women and men, dressed and not dressed. My fantasies revolve around both. My wife knows these things, and I would have to admit in our relationship it is pretty versatile in our activities, but I prefer when she is "in charge"...

[Marleena]

Paulette, I don't think anybody here will pass judgement on you.:)Oh,and welcome to the forum! I'm straight in the fact that I've only had sex with women. I have had bi/gay guys come on to me, but I'm not interested at all. But I have found some other CD'ers very attractive. I'm not afraid to admit that. Does that make me bi-curious, I don't know. I don't think I could act on it sexually. I think if all of the other CD'ers were brutally honest they probably have been attracted to other CD'ers at some point. We are presenting ourselves as females and some are very convincing! Also keep in mind that GG's have no issues with being attracted to another GG for the most part.

[KrystalA]

I agree with Prene. I'd say I am bi-curious. I've had fantasies about being with another cd'r when we are both en femme. I don't know that I'd ever go through with it, but it is an interesting fantasy nonetheless.

[PaulaAnn]

This is an interesting thread for sure.I'm gay and love it ,however years back I considered myself Bi;obviously as I was married with a daughter.Although I am gay and love men ,I do know that if a really "exceptional woman" came into my life, I know that I would "revert" to Bi . I don't know ....I'm a whole lot gay and a tiny bit Bi ....does that make sense? Just the way I'm wired I suppose.Sex is great ,but for me ,to live as a woman,to think and act as one is a very powerful emotion...sometimes it is better than the physical act of lovemaking.
Paula.

[Lorileah]

I am straight......OK that almost worked. I am not gay so I must be...confused. At one time there were polls here and although the majority (and it wasn't a huge majority) claimed straight the Bi's were not far behind. And then add to the mix what exactly is the criteria for whatever and you get a stranger mix.

welcome to the forum

[ReineD]

Welcome Paulette! CDing spans the range of sexuality here (and everywhere else), so no worries! :)

I'm curious though. Are you attracted to both men and women no matter how you're dressed, or is it more an attraction to women when you're in guy mode, and an attraction to men when you're in girl mode?

[flatlander_48]

I'm might as well let you girls know that I'm Bi. I'm wondering if there are others who are Bi as well? It's my understanding that most of you are Hetro. Am I correct or the "oddball" here?

No, you're NOT the only Bi person here. And No, you are NOT the Oddball. Passed bi-curious close to 20 years ago. Currently the list of male partners is longer than the corresponding male list, but neither is that long. Anyway the point is that my preference is probably close to 50/50. However, note that sexual attraction and sexual identity is a continuum and as Bi people, we are spread all over the continuum.

[Anna Lorree]

I am bi-curious, but married and committed so I guess I won't be satisfying my urges any time soon. Don't worry about being normal. Normal is just the average of all of the oddballs, and who wants to be average? Not this girl! Welcome.

Anna

[DaphneATX]

I am probably bi-sexual, but am more likely pan-sexual.

I agree with this statement, I dont want to exclude any group out of my attraction because for me its not just about gender its about personality and soul (m,f,cd,ts,tv)

[seanmuscle]

All Cds are either gay, bi, or bicurious because CDs are women born in a mans body. They have a feminine personality and enjoy presenting themselves as a woman. it is every CDs dream to be one of the girls and talk about clothes, gossip and men. To be kissed by a tall prince charming is a CDs fairy tale ending. It turns her into the princess she has always wanted to be. When a CD gets affirmation as a girl it sets her female side free....

[steffanie]

Hi all,

My first post in the non-member intro forum. I do consider myself my bi and believe in me I could "give up" being bi if I were to find the right GG who was a 100% supportive of my crossdressing and would actually encourage it.
Steffi

[Anna Lorree]

Hi all,

My first post in the non-member intro forum. I do consider myself my bi and believe in me I could "give up" being bi if I were to find the right GG who was a 100% supportive of my crossdressing and would actually encourage it.
Steffi

Steffi,

First off, welcome. Second, I understand how you feel. I hope you feel welcome here.

Anna

[Cheryl T]

Everyone can be accepted here. The whole idea about this is to disseminate information so that we can eliminate the discrimination we all face as a result of our "other side" and to provide support and assistance to those who need it.

While I'm not bi, I surely wouldn't call you an "oddball" or anything. I have friends that are gay and I'm sure some that are bi, but we are all individuals and have our own needs and desires.

[joannemarie barker]

I'm bisexual leaning much more to gay so come on Sean,whip it out,let's see what ya got LMAO :p

[ThiHi]

Welcome! I rarely post here, life is full and rewarding, but wanted to let you know you are definitely not alone. I'm also Bi/Pan - pick a word, but in a monogamous relationship with my wife. No different than being straight and married, you don't sleep with someone else if that's the rule at home.

[Debglam]

Hi Paulette!

We are what we are and no judgment! Welcome!

Oh yeah, beware the trolls that these types of questions bring out from under their bridges!

Debby

[Mimi_Church]

Hi all, I'm new on here and this is my first post.
I'm bi-curious I think. I like to wear panties bras and stockings. I totally respect every1 here, but I don't find men attractive at all! Now Some TS are lovely!

[Amanda Ellis]

Hi Steff and welcome.
If there's one thing I've learned since cross dressing and dreaming about being female since I was nine or 10 (longer actually, but distinct memories from those ages) is that sexuality cannot be easily defined.
I'm bi. I've always chased women and despite what I said above I chased girls starting from about the same time I wanted to be one. But as a teenager I started to notice feelings of attraction to certain men, in the context that I would be their girlfriend. Of course I repressed those feelings until well into my twenties, when after the breakup of a LTR I finally let myself experiment.
Sorry I'm sort of hijacking your thread to vent, so to speak, here, but I don't think I'm alone in living a life of sexual confusion. There's the 'bi when dressed' theory', which I get, yet I still don't think it's entirely honest.
I've always wanted to be in relationships with women, and I can honestly say I have no desire to be in a relationship with a man. But there was this one time...

[kimdl93]

All Cds are either gay, bi, or bicurious because CDs are women born in a mans body. They have a feminine personality and enjoy presenting themselves as a woman. it is every CDs dream to be one of the girls and talk about clothes, gossip and men. To be kissed by a tall prince charming is a CDs fairy tale ending. It turns her into the princess she has always wanted to be. When a CD gets affirmation as a girl it sets her female side free....

I could not disagree more with the above statement. One might argue that to CD one may be TG, but that doesn't mean all CDs are transexuals, nor does it mean that all CDs are secretly or otherwise longing for a male companion. The statement above ignores an abundance of evidence to the contrary and disregards the vast majority of statements regarding gender identification and sexual preference expressed by members of this forum.

[Marleena]

I could not disagree more with the above statement. One might argue that to CD one may be TG, but that doesn't mean all CDs are transexuals, nor does it mean that all CDs are secretly or otherwise longing for a male companion. The statement above ignores an abundance of evidence to the contrary and disregards the vast majority of statements regarding gender identification and sexual preference expressed by members of this forum.

Well said. You can't put labels on all of us.

[Tammy V]

I thought everyone was bi, lol.

[PrettyFlowingGown]

i'm bi, but i've been with more men recently than women. I was never interested in men at all until i was 26 when i had my first brush with a man. I've found the more feminine i've gotten over the years, the more intrest i've had in men. i dont though, like them, on a whole. moustaches and beards turn me off, yuck, and hairy men i'm not into either.

[JulieK1980]

I'm completely straight, except when I'm with a man. :P

Seriously though, I'm definitely Bi, and it doesn't matter how I'm dressed. Although the term pansexual that someone mentioned probably fits me as well.

[ReineD]

All Cds are either gay, bi, or bicurious because CDs are women born in a mans body. They have a feminine personality and enjoy presenting themselves as a woman. it is every CDs dream to be one of the girls and talk about clothes, gossip and men. To be kissed by a tall prince charming is a CDs fairy tale ending. It turns her into the princess she has always wanted to be. When a CD gets affirmation as a girl it sets her female side free....

Here we go again. Some members have already reported your post for its skewed views. But, it is your opinion such as it is and so your post stays. :rolleyes:

Honestly, don't you get tired of making the same broad brush comments, and getting shot down by the membership here?

To the newbies ... not to worry, Sean is harmless. He comes in here every few weeks/months or so, spews the same rhetoric, gets shot down for applying his theories to *all* CDs, and then he goes away for a little while.

[Alicia_lynn419]

I prefer the term "hetroflexible".

[Shelly K]

Great term, LOL, "hetroflexible"

[Niya W]

I prefer the term "hetroflexible".

Is the what we call sexually flexible ?

[curvious]

Hmmmm.. It took me years to come to terms, but I am definitely bi when I am dressed, straight otherwise...Does that make sense??? LOL... There are times when I feel VERY submissive when I am dressed...VERY submissive....

[MsJanessa]

I'm bi--I prefer feminine men, girls like me, and ggs--not into uber masculine types

[Debglam]

Here we go again.

Reine, if I wasn't already married. . . :love:

[minalost]

I prefer the term "hetroflexible".

That's GREAT! Made my day!

[miaTX86]

All Cds are either gay, bi, or bicurious because CDs are women born in a mans body. They have a feminine personality and enjoy presenting themselves as a woman. it is every CDs dream to be one of the girls and talk about clothes, gossip and men. To be kissed by a tall prince charming is a CDs fairy tale ending. It turns her into the princess she has always wanted to be. When a CD gets affirmation as a girl it sets her female side free....

If this is satire...brilliant. If this is literal, this is one of the least astute comments ever.


I agree with this statement, I dont want to exclude any group out of my attraction because for me its not just about gender its about personality and soul (m,f,cd,ts,tv)

This is exactly what I meant. My attraction to someone is not usually related to gender.

[Maxi]

All Cds are either gay, bi, or bicurious because CDs are women born in a mans body. They have a feminine personality and enjoy presenting themselves as a woman. it is every CDs dream to be one of the girls and talk about clothes, gossip and men. To be kissed by a tall prince charming is a CDs fairy tale ending. It turns her into the princess she has always wanted to be. When a CD gets affirmation as a girl it sets her female side free....


Bi here, but still just a man in a dress. No desire to be a woman.

[Alice Torn]

I like the word heteroflexible. I have often fantasizewd being a lady with a gentlman, so I guess bicurious. But, i have had many near meetups, where i chickened out or got wise, at the last minute, or else, the guy chickened out. If i finally do meet a man, i hope for a patient, flexible admirer, if there are any. I always wanted a certain type of woman, but, up till now, i don't have anything to offer, but friendship, and I have met lots of women, who just don't want or need a man, anymore. Part of me really likes being wanted, as a lady, because as a guy, no women seem at all interested! At least, all dressed up, as a pretty lady, lots of guys are interested!

[DebbieL]

I'll use the old joke, I'm trisexual, I'll try anything once, more if I like it.

I know that my sexual fantasies were always of me as a woman, with a woman, So yes, I'm gay, I'm a Lesbian.
Of course, if my partner is really eager, I can enjoy sex as a man with a woman too (though I have to really fantasize the scene above to reach orgasm).
So that would make me bisexual.

I came out 12 years after I gave up drugs and alcohol. However, I suspect that if I had been able to come out and be accepted by the gay community as a CD/TG/TS and had found a nice lover, I could have enjoyed sex with a man too.

The nice thing about men is that it's much easier to find people in the gay community who want to have sex with a TG/TS, than it is to find women in either a straight community or gay community who want to initiate and seduce a TG/TS who is a bit shy. And I know from painful experience, that you have to be willing to take a LOT of rejection to try and make passes at gay or straight women as a TG/TS. Lesbians don't want a man, Straight women want a "real man". Bisexuals are afraid to accept your offers because once they are marked as bisexual, they would have a harder time finding and keeping either a straight or lesbian lover.

I've had 4 experiences with men, and all were not very pleasant. The first was a close friend who I knew was gay. He wanted to "turn" me gay. He was so aggressive it was more like a rape, and I ended it by "accidentally" honking the horn of my car in front of his house. The second had been working out and smelled horrible, but didn't want to take no for an answer. I was able to negotiate down to a hand job. The only time I gave oral I almost threw up all over him (gag reflex). The last one wanted me to dress him up and dominate him. Unfortunately he smelled really bad too. I was able to get him off with my magic wand.

If I had met a man who was handsome, gentle, smelled nice, was clean, and was willing to treat me like a lady, would I have been receptive to his advances? I think I might have been very receptive. Today, I'm married and have no desire to stray. In many ways both of my wives were very masculine.

In Femme mode, I'm much more aware sensually, more receptive, and more easily stimulated.

In drab mode, nearly all touch is an assault on the senses. Everything either tickles, hurts, or just annoys me.

[12Andy777]

I'm bi--I prefer feminine men, girls like me, and ggs--not into uber masculine types

I'm exactly the same way!

[cassandra54]

Welcome Paulette! CDing spans the range of sexuality here (and everywhere else), so no worries! :)

I'm curious though. Are you attracted to both men and women no matter how you're dressed, or is it more an attraction to women when you're in guy mode, and an attraction to men when you're in girl mode?

i would like to weigh in on this. i guess you could consider me bi, although all but one of my mm experiences were with me in guy mode. for women most of mine were in guy mode. the sexual attraction has nothing to do with me being dressed. haven't been seeking either m or f partners lately, since i've really been into being cassandra whenever i can. it's odd how that happened that once i was more into being cassandra, my desire for playmates has diminished. but if i did find playmates that i was compatible with, either m or f, being dressed would be only something that would happen if they were into it. i would tell them about cassandra, but would not expect them to be intimate with me while i was cassandra

[christina s]

While i consider myself to be bi i'm really not attracted to men outside of being in the bedroom while in fem

[ArleneRaquel]

I'm only bi when in female mode. :2c::battingeyelashes:

[LilSissyStevie]

I'm monogamous, anything else is moot.

[Sophie_C]

Honestly, I think FAR more people are bisexual than they let themselves believe.

This includes people who identify as being gay.

These days there's too much of being on one team or another and in order to not deal with the social consequences, they put walls up and simply never address it.

And, the louder someone proclaims themselves as being one way or another, the harder they're forcing those walls to stay in place.

Personally, I'm probably bi, but the gender identity thing being kept in the closet makes things really cloudy.

In the end, I don't like to define myself by sexuality. I'm a human being and what happens, happens.

Better to be true than to force yourself to be whatever you think it's best for you to be.

[ReineD]

I'm monogamous, anything else is moot.

I LOVE this! Perfect! :D

[Sandy Michaels]

i'm a bisexual, have been most of my life. only recently i started crossdressing. for fun . its the most relaxing part of my day. i don't let what i'm wearing controll who i'm attracted to. single right now and not really looking for anybody. but when i am ready to start a new relationship i have no idea if it will be male or female, or trangender. love is a funny thing. just fallow you intincts and hopefully you'll end up with someone specail.

[Niya W]

Here we go again. Some members have already reported your post for its skewed views. But, it is your opinion such as it is and so your post stays. :rolleyes:

Honestly, don't you get tired of making the same broad brush comments, and getting shot down by the membership here?

To the newbies ... not to worry, Sean is harmless. He comes in here every few weeks/months or so, spews the same rhetoric, gets shot down for applying his theories to *all* CDs, and then he goes away for a little while.
You think thats bad. I know a CD that thinks that any MtF CD that likes women while dressed is a freak and she wants nothing to do with them. They are also freaks for talking to gay men.

[Tracii G]

I love ramen noodles.

[Kittyagain]

I fit in with just about everyone here. I have a male friend that I am very close to but in our discussions over the years he looks down on men in women's clothes. I would love for him to know about Kitty as a friend. LOL It is hard to separate feeling when the little head is doing the thinking. :)

Kitty

[Aprilrain]

If I had met a man who was handsome, gentle, smelled nice, was clean, and was willing to treat me like a lady, would I have been receptive to his advances?

Sorry he's taken! You just described my BF.

[Shananigans]

I just don't understand bisexuality having anything to do with what you are wearing at the time. That sounds like a fetish to me. It seems like if you are a heterosexual male that thinks women should be with men then it is the HETEROSEXUAL MALE in you that is saying that when YOU are dressed like a woman, you should also be with a man.

This makes sense to me. Suddenly taking supreme interest in the same sex when you put on a dress does not. It just sounds like you are "one upping" yourself on how much of a woman you can be in your mind.

Bisexuality means that you are attracted to both genders AT ALL TIMES! It doesn't mean I suddenly wear a hat and I am turned on by women. But, I think a fetish would justify that.

This also raises further implication on monogamy. If you don a dress and are into men, where does your SO fit into the equation? That's not bisexuality. I'm bisexual 24/7 365...in a dress...on a plane...on a boat...it doesn't matter. I am monogamous to my SO because my sexual orientation isn't changing suddenly when I am with him.


I'm monogamous, anything else is moot.

AGREED! I think this is how bisexuals get a bad track record with being promiscuous at every turn. The last guy that found out I was bi said, "Bi girls are great...they're the perfect threesome buddies!" Are we REALLY?!? Last time I checked, I would clock someone upside the head that hit on my SO...don't think it makes me the best "threesome buddy."

[Lorileah]

Bisexuality means that you are attracted to both genders AT ALL TIMES!

Oh oh, now I have to change my answer. There are days I am not attracted to either :) Honestly it fluctuates and although I love women almost in any form, guys have to be "special" like April's BF.

[Acastina]

All Cds are either gay, bi, or bicurious because CDs are women born in a mans body. They have a feminine personality and enjoy presenting themselves as a woman. it is every CDs dream to be one of the girls and talk about clothes, gossip and men. To be kissed by a tall prince charming is a CDs fairy tale ending. It turns her into the princess she has always wanted to be. When a CD gets affirmation as a girl it sets her female side free....

I can't decide whether Sean's a closet case, wannabe, admirer who doesn't know it yet, or just a bigot whose dogma will not allow him to question his beliefs. Any time someone lards up an opinion with "all" or "every", illogic alert! He obviously doesn't know many people like us, or he would realize the absurdity of his absolutes. I've known CDs who are so raging femme that Tinkerbell would blush, others who clearly are regular guys in a dress for a while, and every shade of gray in between. I've posted elsewhere about the anomalous brain-wiring theory of how this happens to some males, and I like that theory because it readily explains all the variations of gender and sexuality that are grouped by society under the TG umbrella term.

But really, Sean, this is hardly an appropriate forum to air stereotypes and absolutes.

[Niya W]

Sean is what call a troll. Gets off on us reacting. Stop feeding the troll and it will go away.

[Kittie]

All Cds are either gay, bi, or bicurious because CDs are women born in a mans body. They have a feminine personality and enjoy presenting themselves as a woman. it is every CDs dream to be one of the girls and talk about clothes, gossip and men. To be kissed by a tall prince charming is a CDs fairy tale ending. It turns her into the princess she has always wanted to be. When a CD gets affirmation as a girl it sets her female side free....

You appear to be grossly misunderstanding the difference between transvestism and transsexualism.

While being kissed by a tall prince is a fairytale ending, I'm fairly sure each and every person has there own fantasies and equally personal reasons for taking time to express themselves in such ways, I doubt they can be so predefined as you suggest.

I agree with Shanans point of view. I don't think clothes meant for a specific gender role act as an on and off switch for sexuality. Imagine if they were though!

[Shananigans]

I agree with Shanans point of view. I don't think clothes meant for a specific gender role act as an on and off switch for sexuality. Imagine if they were though!

Exactly. Clothes have Nothing to do with sexuality. Gender has very little to do with sexuality, or we wouldn't have gay people!

I thought this is what CDs get on little stomping fits about anyway. How many times have I heard, "JUST BECAUSE I CD DOES NOT MEAN I AM GAY!" Now, it's "only when I CD am I gay."

Good grief...

I'd say every gay or bi person (every straight person for that matter) identified with their sexual orientation at a very young age, even if they did not accept it. It does not matter if I am naked, or dressed up like Dorothy...I am bi. There is no running from it.

Now, sexuality is very complex. If you dress up and get into kinkier things and want to experiment. There's a few words for that behavior...fetish...experimentation...etc. But, it's not bisexuality...not unless you could be attracted to that certain group of people no matter what you are wearing.

Maybe this is why the gay community is getting so mad at CDs and stopping drag shows in gay bars. They don't want the association of clothing with sexuality. I thought CDs were pretty much in agreement with this, but I guess not everyone is...

[Niya W]

Well the the reason for being mad at DQ is they see DQ as some thing that gets mocked. They want to be taken seriously and DQ detract from that. Paraphrased from a gay man that hates DQ.

[IamSara]

I agree with many of the points made here. 1. I am bi no matter where enfemme or guy mode. 2. i think as someone said most if not all people are bi to some extent or have at least thought about it at some time in their life. 3. the walls built up around being either sexuality are what homophobes are using to make the walls stronger and stronger.
I do believe that people are what they are because of being born that way, just like the majority of CD's, we are born that way.
So all in all I have a wonderful life. I enjoy the best of both worlds being a woman and a man, having enjoyed being with a woman and a man. I am married and believe in being faithful to my wife and that part of my past is past but does that change that I am not bi just because I don't take part in it? No I am still bi but because I love my wife I choose to be with her only.

[Shananigans]

Well the the reason for being mad at DQ is they see DQ as some thing that gets mocked. They want to be taken seriously and DQ detract from that. Paraphrased from a gay man that hates DQ.

I agree, but it also goes beyond that. The big bugaboo right now is the "T" is LGBQT. What does being TG have to do with sexual orientation? And, CDing is under the TG umbrella...what do clothes have to do with sexual orientation?

What we have been saying for years is that sexuality is NOT a choice. I can't choose who I am attracted to. I can't magically take off my hat and just be into men.

Then, there are the idiots that think lesbians are all "butch" or "bull dykes" because obviously how they dress is associated with their sexual orientation. But, when there are a huge number of people like me, they compensate and say, "Well, oh, she's a lipstick lesbian!" No. It's absolutely infuriating.

There are fewer and fewer TG friendly places to go, when usually they were gay bars. But, most gay men don't want to be associated as being CDs. As my gay friend said, "I'm gay. I like men. I don't like men in dresses. I don't like men with boobs. I like penis and I like a man dressed as a man." I was a little put-off by this statement and thought it was a little blunt. But, I see what he means. He doesn't want his sexual orientation associated with CDing and things CDs do...he gets enough flack for being gay. I kind of feel the same way...I get really sick of being the ***** and the threesome buddy because I am bi. I don't want people surprised that I look girly and am ladylike just because I like sn*tch. It's dumb.

In fact, I don't want ANY image, clothing, or action describing or attributed to my sexuality. Bisexuality pure and simple is just being attracted to both men and women. It really has nothing to do with CDing and it has no on and off switch. If it did, I would have found it when I was 12 and thought I was going straight to Hell...do not pass go, do not collect $200.

[Niya W]

Hmm now here is a few questions if You are an MtF CD that likes women But you will date date other MtF Cd's doe that make you Bi ? If your a GG that dates women and CDs does that make you bi.

[Lorileah]

Hmm now here is a few questions if You are an MtF CD that likes women But you will date date other MtF Cd's doe that make you Bi ?
From the guys who have tried to hit on me the answer is no. At least as long as the wig and skirt stay on. When those come off....I tend to make guys suddenly Olympic track stars. It all has to do with the smoke and mirrors. It is like the T-shirt says "I am not gay but my boyfriend is"

(I like the name Shanan...:)) So anyway, I agree with what you say, but as we both know the members here do tend to have separate ideas especially when it comes to "Them" personally.

[Shananigans]

Hmm now here is a few questions if You are an MtF CD that likes women But you will date date other MtF Cd's doe that make you Bi ? If your a GG that dates women and CDs does that make you bi.

Well, going to the definition of bisexual...it just means that you are attracted to both men and women. CDing does not enter the mix. A common misconception when I look at porn is that pre-op TSs are a "bisexual fantasy." I have seen porn that had basically those titles. And, being intrigued, I clicked...and, it's a pre-op TS. Now, bisexuality means attracted to both men and women...a bisexual fantasy would not be someone with both genders wrapped up in one body. It doesn't do a whole lot for me because I am attracted to both men and women...not mixed genitalia. That is a different category and fetish all together that does not have anything to do with being bisexual. (That does not mean that I do not find TSs attractive, or that I would not date one. It just means that their mixed genitalia would not attraction factor for me personally. It would be pretty neutral. I'd be attracted to the fact that they are women. Vice versa for FTMs).

If you were a MTF CD that dates other MTF CDs, you might have a fetish...you might be acting out on gay fantasies, but staying "safe" in the heterosexual realm because the person is presenting as a woman. I don't really know. It's not for me to decide. But, I can tell you it's not really bisexuality unless you are attracted to that person when all the makeup and clothes come off. If you are a MTF CD that is attracted to other MTF CDs, but lose attraction once the makeup and clothes are off...I'd say it was a fetish. But, I'm not a sex therapist.

Same with a GGs that dates CDs. If you are just into the CDing as a kink and aren't really into GGs...I'd say it's a fetish. I think my SO is so f*cking sexy when dressed, and maybe it's a fetish. I don't really know. I do look at her dressed as a woman and I am still attracted when the clothes and makeup come off. I am not attracted to the fact that he is a "man in a dress." I see Cami as a woman. I see Ryan as a man. I am attracted to them both.

Therefore, I don't think I have a fetish towards my SO CDing. The fact that I see Cami as a woman and am attracted to her, may have something to do with bisexuality. The fact that I see Ryan as a man and am attracted to him also has something to do with my bisexuality. We are both pretty gender flexible and like to play around, so maybe we have other things on top of bisexuality. But, being bisexual in its simplest definition is attraction to both genders...not a gender all in one person...not mixed genders...not men in dresses...not women in pants. JUST an attraction to both genders.

Lorileah: I agree. Sexuality is so complex...CDing is so complex. Sometimes these conversation are never resolved. BTW, Shanan has been my nickname since I was like...3. :) I like it too

[Niya W]

Well for me I'd date a GG other TS, CDs but a man . He would have to look pretty fem in boy mode for me . But the idea of strong masculine guy turns me off.

[*Alexia]

I have always been attracted to both genders for the most part. But I have to say that my attraction towards men intensifies when I'm dressed. When I'm not dressed, and hanging out with my friends, I'm chasing women and not thinking twice really about the guys in the room.

I might have a split personality though...who knows? :heehee:

[Shananigans]

Well for me I'd date a GG other TS, CDs but a man . He would have to look pretty fem in boy mode for me . But the idea of strong masculine guy turns me off.

Well, there are people who are "pansexual." This is probably more of what I am because I generally just say that I date people I am attracted to...it wouldn't matter if the person was TS, CD, GG, or GM. But, at the end of the day...I may not know you are TS or a CD. You would just look like an attractive man or woman to me. I wouldn't seek out to date someone who is TS or CD, because at the end of the day I would see you and treat you like the gender that you identify with...genitalia has little to do with it. Just like clothes have little to do with it. So, that's why I think bisexual fits me best even if I am open to people who may fall somewhere differently on the gender spectrum.

But, you know, you say a man would have to pretty feminine for you to be attracted to him. I think obviously you have preferences. It's kind of like the gay or lesbian thing...obviously, I am not attracted to ALL women and ALL men. I am attracted to very feminine women. I am also attracted to men that are kind of taller, leaner and athletic. I have preferences. But, at the same time, I would be open to getting to know and potentially dating someone that I was initially not very attracted to physically. There would obviously have to be SOME physical attraction there, or we would just be sexually incompatible. But, anyway...

[Mistybtm]

Same for me as well I am bi get the best of both worlds :)

[Niya W]

Well at the end of the day we are who we are. We like what we like. Labels are not really needed. Maybe the reason why so many of my trans friends are bi is cause once you through off when sett of shackles it's easier to through them all of. Or is it I'm just attracted to bi people.

[Helen Grandeis]

Human beings need to touch the souls of other human beings. Sex is one of the ways we can do that. Our life programming creates preconceived barriers to whom we are going to allow to touch us. I am glad that I am touched and allowed to touch and am able to experience that profound closeness - although various nonstandard things are going through my head during the process.
-
Cherish your many diverse opportunities to experience this.
-
Helen

[Debglam]

Well the the reason for being mad at DQ is they see DQ as some thing that gets mocked. They want to be taken seriously and DQ detract from that. Paraphrased from a gay man that hates DQ.

Soccer mom question: I take it DQ is not Dairy Queen? No dipped cones today????

[Niya W]

Spanks Mebbie. Dips her in ice cream.

[karynspanties]

I am bi. The only time I am ever with a man is when I am fully enfemme. Otherwise I have no desire for men.

[Julie in Virginia]

I am bi. The only time I am ever with a man is when I am fully enfemme. Otherwise I have no desire for men.

In guy mode, If i am honest, i am into both guys and girls. However, due possibly to society norms (or at least my parents expectations), I had many more experiences with women and only a few (awkward) experiences with guys.

In girl mode, however, I have little/no interest in women. Just totally into guys. Bonus if they are clean cut and athletic.

Now oddly enough, I am not sexually interested at all in other CDs. Ever. I "guess" this all makes me bi, but I totally hate labels. I'm just me.

[kelsey52]

Yes I am bi. I had the chance to be with guys in some type of girl mode and they just go nuts over it believe me the explosion is big. guys really do want to please.

[Julie8181]

I have to say I'm really glad that this topic was introduced. Terminology aside, I had always thought that I was an extremely rare case for the way my brain is configured sexuality-wise. I (we) may still be, but I really didn't think I would meet more than a couple of other people that were on the same page on the boards. What a relief!

[NoraTV]

I am sexual. Period. Whether its bi- metro- omni... doesn't matter to me.

[Ressie]

From the responses it looks like a lot of you have bisexual feelings when dressed. I seem to be in the same boat, but there have been only two same sex encounters in my life. However, there were other situations that could have let to actual encounters. My opinion is if one fantasizes having a same sex encounter enough, they will eventually take the next step to make it happen. "Bi-curious" seems to be a growing trend. Some will remain curious while others will take the next step - enfemme or not.

[StarrOfDelite]

In guy mode, If i am honest, i am into both guys and girls. However, due possibly to society norms (or at least my parents expectations), I had many more experiences with women and only a few (awkward) experiences with guys.

In girl mode, however, I have little/no interest in women. Just totally into guys. Bonus if they are clean cut and athletic.

Now oddly enough, I am not sexually interested at all in other CDs. Ever. I "guess" this all makes me bi, but I totally hate labels. I'm just me.

I tend to have the same tastes as you as far as being attracted to men, women and other CD's in the abstract sense. I am sure that my preferences are based more on psychological conditioning than anything else. In the final analysis I am wearing a masculine body wrapped around an ambivalent mind, so why should it make any difference what clothes either my partner or I are wearing when we begin the mating ritual. The object is to wind up naked, isn't it?

Although I've had minimal sexual intercourse with women for several years, in my own mind I believe that I can enjoy almost any type of physical contact with a compatible human being, from touching fingers to kissing to exploring the positions of the kama sutra, irrespective of his/her gender. So, I wonder why I'm influenced about choosing such a human being by reason of the clothes that we are wearing.

[missynicole]

i am bi also. when i dress i like men and other girls like us. no excuses i am bi.

[cinderellaman]

I am very bi curious. But, it would have to be with a certain type of man. I wouldn't want to be with an overly aggressive hairy man.

[flatlander_48]

Here we go again. Some members have already reported your post for its skewed views. But, it is your opinion such as it is and so your post stays. :rolleyes:

Honestly, don't you get tired of making the same broad brush comments, and getting shot down by the membership here?

To the newbies ... not to worry, Sean is harmless. He comes in here every few weeks/months or so, spews the same rhetoric, gets shot down for applying his theories to *all* CDs, and then he goes away for a little while.

Could we work on increasing the interval?

[OKPink]

I am like that too Cindarella. I am not attracted to hairy guys (I am not hairy) and prefer gentle guys also. But then, I also lie women who are not hairy and aggressive.

[Lace-Is-Great]

I feel that my sexuality is evolving... At the times in my life when I've been in a long-term relationship with women, I've been so much into that one individual woman (emotionally and physically) that I rarely glanced or noticed anyone else (male or female) while the relationship lasted.

I crossdressed a few times with one of my long term girlfriends, but she reacted more lustfully to me in guy mode than in girl mode, so that made it less fun for me to be girly when I was with her, thus lessening the frequency for me dressing up while I was in that particular relationship.

For casual dating, it's been amazing to me how strongly and suddenly my tastes could change from dating one individual to another.

When I put on my silky panties, then it greater intensifies my desire to be with other CD girls or men.

I guess that the two terms which better describe my own sexuality over the years as a whole would be "Pansexual" and "Bisexual".

My most frequent attractions have been for women, but I also have a powerful attraction for feminine males, specifically M2F crossdressers / transgendered, and also to aggressive soft butch genetic women (if those soft butch GG's have a cute face that I like).

It's confusing at times when I step back away from it to compare / contrast the different "objects of my affection" & lust, but while I'm with someone I usually am very blissful and enjoying the moment thoroughly.
:-)

xoxoxo
~ Danielle

[biguy]

I am bi sexual but it seem that I want a lot more body contact and kissing when I am dressed

[Eve II]

Damn - "Who got to be in charge and set up the rules anyway?" I'm in a strong relationship "Hetro", but
I wish Bi was the norm. Or better yet, I wish there was not a norm. I wish that if we had shared feelings
about or with someone that we could be with that person and everyone was happy for us.

[Veronica Electronica]

I guess I am bi-curious. On one hand, I often fantasize about having sex with men, yet I rarely if ever find men attractive. Rather, I am attracted to the idea of having sex with a man. I can go outside and find a girl attractive, but I don't notice men in the same way. On the other hand, I do tend to have an ideal man in mind whenever I fantasize, I just tend to focus on the body as opposed to what they look like. Sometimes I fantasize about being with a man as a woman, but since I don't know what it's like to be a woman, when I do fantasize about men, I picture myself either dressed as a woman (but still a man) or just as myself. What stops me from calling myself bisexual is that I don't know if I would ever find a man attractive in the same way I would find a woman to be attractive.

[Kitty Sue]

Hi there I am bi too. :)

[Julogden]

I used to be active in the transgender support groups in Chicago and have met a lot of us. As a result of that, my experience is that there are a lot of people in the community who are bi, so you've got lots of company. :)


All Cds are either gay, bi, or bicurious because CDs are women born in a mans body. They have a feminine personality and enjoy presenting themselves as a woman. it is every CDs dream to be one of the girls and talk about clothes, gossip and men. To be kissed by a tall prince charming is a CDs fairy tale ending. It turns her into the princess she has always wanted to be. When a CD gets affirmation as a girl it sets her female side free....

Oh yeah, baby, we all just dream of meeting a real man like you. :lol2::lol::lol2::lol::lol2::lol:

Carol

[marcy77]

Shari,
I'm in the exact same position as you. I struggled with that question for many years. I like to tell my friends that I'm bi-curious and tell myself that I'm bisexual. Bisexual sounds more committed more in to it. That with which we call ourselves makes us lean towards sterotypes. When you tell someone what kind of person you are you are telling them what you think that title means.
When people think of a bisexual, they think of someone who is actively having sex with males and females at the present moment . And because of that
if you do not fit this narrow description you are just bi-curious. People have forgotten the meaning of these titles. Like the fact that one of them is not actually a title. Bi-curiosity is just a curiosity for mere moments. And the moment that that curiosity becomes sexually pleasurable for you is the moment that you become a bisexual person. After that, it is simply a matter of your degree of bisexuality.

[alice clair]

I am bi too but like others i only want a man when i am dressed but i will check out a man anytime without him noticing. My wife is also bi.

[Julie8181]

This describes me precisely as well. Except every time I fantasize about being with a man, it's as a woman rather than a man dressed as a woman.


I guess I am bi-curious. On one hand, I often fantasize about having sex with men, yet I rarely if ever find men attractive. Rather, I am attracted to the idea of having sex with a man. I can go outside and find a girl attractive, but I don't notice men in the same way. On the other hand, I do tend to have an ideal man in mind whenever I fantasize, I just tend to focus on the body as opposed to what they look like. Sometimes I fantasize about being with a man as a woman, but since I don't know what it's like to be a woman, when I do fantasize about men, I picture myself either dressed as a woman (but still a man) or just as myself. What stops me from calling myself bisexual is that I don't know if I would ever find a man attractive in the same way I would find a woman to be attractive.

[melissapghcd]

Wow, interesting stuff! I'd come to terms that I was at least bi-curious a good while back. I've had a couple awkward experiences with other CD's while dressed. I liked it, but it never went very far. I've wanted to experiment more but haven't really had the chance.

I definitely like GG's. A lot :) That is my main preference. With that said, CD's turn me on a lot too. It was mentioned earlier that maybe that's more fetish than being Bi? I dunno. I could absolutely be with a CD while I was still my normal male self. I prefer for both of us to be dressed though. Regular guys don't do anything for me. I don't even pay attention to them in public generally where as I get whip lash from checking out girls regularly :p Of course half the time I'm checking out what they're wearing as much as I am them!

So, does that place me Bi, a fetishist, a CD lesbian, or something else?

Not sure it matters in the end, but it is interesting to see the cross section that we have here and how people see themselves.

[Jenniferathome]

Paulette, I seriously doubt any cares if you are bi or gay or straight. The forum is for crossdressers not corssdressers-with-a-sexual-preference. While most crossdressers are straight, bi and gay will run will be represented here as in the overall population. Welcome.

[LaurenB]

I guess I'm bi. I can't say definitively because I am committed to my wife.

[Regan]

Paulette

I am also bi and I totally agree with your posting. I am here mainly for the support and if more comes of it great. I would love to chat with you or others about this.

[Jenniferathome]

All Cds are either gay, bi, or bicurious because CDs are women born in a mans body. They have a feminine personality and enjoy presenting themselves as a woman. it is every CDs dream to be one of the girls and talk about clothes, gossip and men. To be kissed by a tall prince charming is a CDs fairy tale ending. It turns her into the princess she has always wanted to be. When a CD gets affirmation as a girl it sets her female side free....

Dude, you are whacked out. You haven't a clue what crossdressing is or what is means to the man who does it. Crossdressing is completely unrelated to any sexuality. It is an expression of personality, not sexuality. As a straight, monogamous, married man, I can state with certainty you are wrong. Crossdressers are straight, or gay, or bi or whatever, in equal percentages as they are in the general population. Nothing more. Read a book, go to Wikipedia or get a clue. You are offensive.

[RuthieER]

I am very definitely bi. I discovered my bisexuality at the same time I discovered crossdressing, and the two are linked in me. I used to say that I am attracted to men as a woman, and to women as a man, but on closer inspection it is a lot more complicated than that. I am attracted to men for sex, and women for relationships. I am the passive partner when dressed, regardless of the sex or gender of the person I am with. I doubt that I could be the active partner with a man, no matter how I was dressed (or undressed). I would like to do more exploring of being the active partner, while dressed, with women or TGs.

I have found that many TGs are bi, probably in a larger proportion than the general public. One may call oneself hetero, but if one is presenting as female and being with a woman, it sure looks bi to me.

Ruthie

[JamieRog]

I'm glad someone started this thread. It feels good to know so many CDs have the same, or similar, attraction to men that I do. And maybe bi OR pan would be the right definition of my orientation, but I'm a vague constantly evolving person, so maybe I could just say I'm un-strait...

[kerilynn]

Hi Paulette,

Although I've never been with a guy I have always fantasised about them no matter how I'm dressed even when with my so. I have kind of put myself out there to guys I've had crushes on but it hasn't happened for me yet, but never en femme. That would come after. I think that would complete the woman in me.

Keri

[paulaprimo]

i was on this italian cruise ship, we hit some rocks and the ship rolled on its side. as some tripped and fell into lifeboats, i must of landed on a guy...lol i love women and totally in love my GF. i am not attracted to men or other CD's. i do not even want relations with my GF when dressed. BUT, and a big BUT, when dressed i seem to prefer men. don't know if its part of the fantasy or the ultimate validation. but this is when my "hetroflexible" or my "bi-curious" appears. i guess its kinda like being slightly pregnant...

[Tamara Croft]

All Cds are either gay, bi, or bicurious because CDs are women born in a mans body

And you quite obviously need to get a clue :rolleyes: We await your next stupid thread....

[Cindia]

I started out thinking I was straight, but the more I dressed, the more I thought about being with a man. Does it count as being straight if I only have sex with men when I'm in girl mode?

[whowhatwhen]

Maybe imagining yourself as a woman makes it "okay" to be attracted to guys, I mean for your entire life society has been actively preaching that men go with women and you're broken/evil if you think otherwise.
Unless more CDs are actually TS, but I imagine that's going to be pretty rare.

I label myself BI because of the possibility to be attracted to guys, it's rare but saying I'm "straight" would not be very true.
Likewise, coming out as gay wouldn't make me less attracted to women and more attracted to men.

I don't have the resources or space/privacy to dress atm so I've left CD out of my equations.
It does get easier if I imagine myself as female though, but my dreams are still 99% male/male.

[kobe]

I consider myself hetro because when I’m in guy mode I think about girls. I also consider myself hetro because when I’m dressed I think about guys. When dressed I embrace my female side and just consider my thoughts towards men as normal. I don’t think I would ever label myself or think twice if I acted one way or another.

[JaniceP]

I identify as Hetro, BUT when I'm dressed pretty with a cute wig, pretty makeup and jewlery.

Wearing a FEMININE dress or skirt and blouse. Underneath having on pretty pastel, lacy panties, a control padded hip and butt padded panty. A cute lacy underwire Bra that matches my LLPG whitch has garters that hold up my stockings and the most FEMININE, Girly, nylon slip that has lots of pretty lace coming up from the hem.
After all of this, I sometimes pretend that I'm with a cute guy who has his arm around me and holds me close. I'm just so submissive and put my head on his sholder. He lifts my chin off his sholder and tastes my lipstick as his hand carresses my nylon covered legs and works it way up my skirt toying with the garters of my Girdle.

[larry]

I am Bigaystraightual. Anybody got
a problem with that ? Hehe

[latanya]

same here but never been out as latanya. but i see myself as hetero! when I'm male I am only interested in women. but if i ventured out as latnaya i would want to be perceived as a woman and i guess everyting that goes along with that!

[Annaliese2010]

I'm near 100% female identified, have no desire to be with a male, only girls. By girls I mean GG girls and/or other M2F TG girls who are likewise really truly female identified, on the 'inside'. I don't consider the latter as being 'bi' cause sex begins n ends in the mind. Two female minds having sex is lesbianism not bisexuality even tho, paradoxically, we have male bods. Oh well...shit happens eh. :battingeyelashes:

[JessicaM1985]

Count me as anothet pansexual. I have strong preferences for m2f transgenders but can date and be intimate with cismen, ciswomen and ftm transgenders in either mode as well.

I'm one of the "oddballs" in that I'm truly genderblind and in such I fail to see what the big deal is in terms of gender. Love people, not gender I say. But if it's not for you, more power to you and I'm in no position to judge or say otherwise at all.

I will say that I see myself as a woman in any case, therefore what is considered "straight" sex is kind of backwards from what my anatomy would suggest.

[KiwiHeather]

I am not sure about this anymore, been thinking on it (and have edited my response), previously I was happy to accept the 'Bi label' but now I am not so sure. The occassional thought doesnt necesarrily make me that way. Perhaps its more a curiosity of something taboo/forbidden and less of an action I would actually carry out.

[busker]

that sexuality is NOT a choice. I can't choose who I am attracted to.

.
there was an article recently in the nytimes about nixon.
What is your take on Cynthia (?) Nixon [from sex in the city program]who now has a female lover who now has a baby from a male or donor? She seems to think that YOU CAN make a choice. She seems to think one can SWITCH ON gay.

[ReineD]

there was an article recently in the nytimes about nixon.
What is your take on Cynthia (?) Nixon [from sex in the city program]who now has a female lover who now has a baby from a male or donor? She seems to think that YOU CAN make a choice. She seems to think one can SWITCH ON gay.

No. It means that you can't control who you will feel attracted to. I'm hetero and you could put 30 guys in a lineup in front of me. I'd be attracted to a few more than most, and I'd likely fall in love with only one. Do I "pick" which person I'm attracted to? I don't think so. It just happens based on things that are beyond our ability to measure or rationalize.

If someone has the ability to be bi, they don't pick and choose who they become attracted to either. Granted they're bi, but it doesn't mean they can be in a relationship with every Tom, Dick, Harry, Jane, Suzy, or Flo that comes along. :p

[whowhatwhen]

there was an article recently in the nytimes about nixon.
What is your take on Cynthia (?) Nixon [from sex in the city program]who now has a female lover who now has a baby from a male or donor? She seems to think that YOU CAN make a choice. She seems to think one can SWITCH ON gay.

F List actress stirrs the biggest pot for attention, it works.
Sorry, if you're attracted to the same gender you can't call yourself straight. Or you can, but expect people who know better to call you out. :)

[Mona]

I am attracted to people who are sweet, gentle and intelligent. I guess that makes me sweetsexual.

[kelsey52]

Yes Iam Bi I have had sex with men while dressed and not dressed well not like loving bed room stuff just quick wam bam thank you sir type stuff. I really love being dressed while doing it.

[Shananigans]

there was an article recently in the nytimes about nixon.
What is your take on Cynthia (?) Nixon [from sex in the city program]who now has a female lover who now has a baby from a male or donor? She seems to think that YOU CAN make a choice. She seems to think one can SWITCH ON gay.

I think you can find acceptance in your sexuality, but there are no on/off switches. Gay people have been saying this for years. We have finally been taken seriously by society when we say that this is not a choice...it's just who we are. I'm sure some CDs and TGs can relate in that statement. Back when it was viewed as being a choice and having an on/off switch, we were mentally insane and receiving electroshock therapy.

I will never perceive my sexuality as a choice. I can accept that people admit to their sexuality late in life, but I do believe it was there all along. I also will maintain that there is no off switch...no change in clothing will change sexuality.

I raised these views (actually from a different thread) on a LGBT meet and it was a sh*t storm. It's a pretty powerful thing that the majority of us hold on to that this is not a choice and does not go away. I had actually never heard of people claiming to be bisexual only when donning certain clothing items until I came to this site.

I'm not sure what that should tell you... But, if sexuality continues to bother you, I'd join my local LGBT group. If you told them you only have fantasies of men when you are dressed as a woman and sent actually attracted to men otherwise, they might call you a fetishist. They might also call you a fetishist if you say you are into CDs only when they are dressed and only attracted to TSs if they ate pre-op. But, at least you'd meet more people and maybe discover more about yourself. Heck, you may realize deep down you are flamingly gay and in denial....in that case, just get on the bus. My lesbian friend is waiting like a wolf because she thinks I'm a lesbian and not bi, but I keep disappointing her. Either way, they are good people and can answer your questions.

[danielletorresani]

Under the right circumstances I'd totally fool around with another CD. She'd have to be a pretty hot one, though... So I guess that makes me bi-curious?

[JessicaM1985]

Sexuality is most definitely NOT a choice. I didn't choose to be pansexual any more than I chose to be born white. It just happened. Rather than spend the rest of my life in denial, I learned to just accept it and with enough time, I will even learn to embrace it.

To those that think there is an on/off switch to it, sorry but you're deceiving yourselves. Learn to love whomever you want, but most importantly, learn to love and accept yourself first. I, like shenanigans, have never heard of people being attracted to same sex when dressed (if we are going by birth anatomy. Apologies if this comes off as offensive), so it's something I'd honestly like to learn more about, since I'd like to learn more about both gender and sexuality

Is it a case of where you are legitmately only interested in men when dressed, or is it a case of where your inhibitions to it are lowered and find yourself more accepting of the idea when you can express femininity?

If the latter, then it strikes me as a form of denial. One where it's ok to like men because you are a girl and it becomes "straight sex". In that scenario it's wanting to reap the benefits of m2m intimacy, but without negative societal stigma attached to it. And in no way am I judging that, but am merely trying to better understand the how and why of it, as well as explain how it can strike an LGB as odd.

[seanmuscle]

I think you can find acceptance in your sexuality, but there are no on/off switches. Gay people have been saying this for years. We have finally been taken seriously by society when we say that this is not a choice...it's just who we are. I'm sure some CDs and TGs can relate in that statement. Back when it was viewed as being a choice and having an on/off switch, we were mentally insane and receiving electroshock therapy.

I will never perceive my sexuality as a choice. I can accept that people admit to their sexuality late in life, but I do believe it was there all along. I also will maintain that there is no off switch...no change in clothing will change sexuality.

I raised these views (actually from a different thread) on a LGBT meet and it was a sh*t storm. It's a pretty powerful thing that the majority of us hold on to that this is not a choice and does not go away. I had actually never heard of people claiming to be bisexual only when donning certain clothing items until I came to this site.

I'm not sure what that should tell you... But, if sexuality continues to bother you, I'd join my local LGBT group. If you told them you only have fantasies of men when you are dressed as a woman and sent actually attracted to men otherwise, they might call you a fetishist. They might also call you a fetishist if you say you are into CDs only when they are dressed and only attracted to TSs if they ate pre-op. But, at least you'd meet more people and maybe discover more about yourself. Heck, you may realize deep down you are flamingly gay and in denial....in that case, just get on the bus. My lesbian friend is waiting like a wolf because she thinks I'm a lesbian and not bi, but I keep disappointing her. Either way, they are good people and can answer your questions.

You took the words right out my mouth. Exactly. A lot of the females that like CD are BI. Many women that identify as hetero prefer men, not CDs

[seanmuscle]

I am very definitely bi. I discovered my bisexuality at the same time I discovered crossdressing, and the two are linked in me. I used to say that I am attracted to men as a woman, and to women as a man, but on closer inspection it is a lot more complicated than that. I am attracted to men for sex, and women for relationships. I am the passive partner when dressed, regardless of the sex or gender of the person I am with. I doubt that I could be the active partner with a man, no matter how I was dressed (or undressed). I would like to do more exploring of being the active partner, while dressed, with women or TGs.

I have found that many TGs are bi, probably in a larger proportion than the general public. One may call oneself hetero, but if one is presenting as female and being with a woman, it sure looks bi to me.

Ruthie

You hit the nail on the head. Finally somebody who gets it. Loving a man makes a CD into a complete woman. Taking care of a man in the bedroom and being treated like a lady is the must fulfilling and feminine experience.

[Shananigans]

You took the words right out my mouth. Exactly. A lot of the females that like CD are BI. Many women that identify as hetero prefer men, not CDs

Meh that's not what I said really. Many (if not most) bi women I know aren't really interested in CDs. The whole "best of both worlds" thing doesn't really work because bi people like women and they like men. The mixed genitalia thing I think is something different all together. But, there Are bi women that like CDs...obviously, I'm one of them. But, I do view my SO (Cami) as a woman when dressed. The fact my SO looks like an attractive woman is what attracts me. So, I can see a lot of bi women being okay with CDing. But, I don't think being bi automatically equals attraction to CDs. On a similar note, I DO know a few straight women into CDing. It's more of a domination/fetish thing for them...they aren't really attracted to women, but do find the change exciting and enjoy being in the dominant role. These women are straight with a kink. This is why I say CDs that limit themselves to bi GGs are doing themselves a disservice. A bi GG may be open to it, and she might not. A straight GG might be into and she might not. It all depends. A bi girl might really get into it if the CD looks enough like a woman. (Many lesbian couples use assisting devices, so a CD "something extra" isn't really That off putting to women interested in women...but, it could be off putting to some...you never know). Likewise, a straight girl might get into it because it's taboo and fun and offers flexibility that a "normal" sex life would not. People are interesting...and, surprise the Hell out of me every day.

[Shananigans]

You hit the nail on the head. Finally somebody who gets it. Loving a man makes a CD into a complete woman. Taking care of a man in the bedroom and being treated like a lady is the must fulfilling and feminine experience.

I'd say most lesbians disagree that making love to a man makes you into a complete woman. I'd also argue that the most feminine experience would be a lesbian experience. But, hey, what do I know? I was just born a woman and love women. I some how have some natal instincts on how a lady wants to be treated. You're probably right though Men know how women want to be treated...that's why they do so well at it and why women are crying to Cosmo about unfulfilling sexual relationships and pre-mature ejaculation. But, I'm probably highly biased. ;)

[Rachel Flowers]

Lots of CDs in past research have declared themselves heterosexual, but to me the whole point of forums like this is to help us cope with the fact that everybody's different.

I believe I am bisexual in orientation, though I've never had any experiences with men. My wife regards herself as bisexual and similarly has never had any experiences with women. So it sounds like Shananigans' experience is very similar to hers.

It seems to be trendy to say "a man is the ultimate femme accessory". Given that in other cultures and at other times (especially when less sex-obsessed religions held sway over public mores) bisexuality was more commonly acknowledged and expressed, I wonder whether CDs who are attracted to men while en femme are in fact simply expressing a natural inbuilt desire that they've been conditioned to suppress while en homme.

In short, we are all bisexual. There's no such thing as straight. ;)

[whowhatwhen]

Is it a case of where you are legitmately only interested in men when dressed, or is it a case of where your inhibitions to it are lowered and find yourself more accepting of the idea when you can express femininity?



At least for me this is pretty accurate, I can still find some guys attractive normally but the reduction of inhibitions makes it 1000x easier.

I still find women more attractive generally though, but being a passive bi cd is going to be in "needle in a haystack" territory.

I'd also like to thank that actress for selling us out in exchange for her name in the news.
Nope, that certainly won't give bigots more ammo!

[seanmuscle]

Meh that's not what I said really. Many (if not most) bi women I know aren't really interested in CDs. The whole "best of both worlds" thing doesn't really work because bi people like women and they like men. The mixed genitalia thing I think is something different all together. But, there Are bi women that like CDs...obviously, I'm one of them. But, I do view my SO (Cami) as a woman when dressed. The fact my SO looks like an attractive woman is what attracts me. So, I can see a lot of bi women being okay with CDing. But, I don't think being bi automatically equals attraction to CDs. On a similar note, I DO know a few straight women into CDing. It's more of a domination/fetish thing for them...they aren't really attracted to women, but do find the change exciting and enjoy being in the dominant role. These women are straight with a kink. This is why I say CDs that limit themselves to bi GGs are doing themselves a disservice. A bi GG may be open to it, and she might not. A straight GG might be into and she might not. It all depends. A bi girl might really get into it if the CD looks enough like a woman. (Many lesbian couples use assisting devices, so a CD "something extra" isn't really That off putting to women interested in women...but, it could be off putting to some...you never know). Likewise, a straight girl might get into it because it's taboo and fun and offers flexibility that a "normal" sex life would not. People are interesting...and, surprise the Hell out of me every day.

Bi girls are generally more open to Cds. However, straight women by large prefer a masculine type man if we speak in general

[Erica Marie]

Ok, this may be a tough one. I would call myself bisexual also. But I have no attraction to regular guys. I do have an attraction to other crossdressers when they are en femme but not in the genetic male role. I would like to experience life as a female, to be able to live the role of a female and experience love from a female perspective. Yet when it comes down to it, I am still ok with myself as a male. I know confusing.

[ReineD]

Bi girls are generally more open to Cds. However, straight women by large prefer a masculine type man if we speak in general

Sean, I've gotta say ... you're learning! :D It's just so nice to see you use the word "generally" instead of "all". lol

But just so you know, remember all the non-macho guys in your high school? The book-worms, nerds, all the guys who didn't play sports? Well, they all found women to marry and have kids with too. This means there are plenty of women who love non-stereotypical, non-macho guys. There's a big world out there with lots and lots of different types of people. :)

[moondog]

If we're speaking about masculine "macho" men in general, well, most people don't like them because they're arogant jerks. Just listen to them when they're watching a football game or listen to their misogynistic comments when an attractive woman walks by them. Uber male bravado, perhaps, showing off for the pals, could be, but still pretty rude and, dare I say, antisocial.

[Shananigans]

God, I just love nerdy guys. I apparently love computer scientists, because the last 3 guys I dated were in that field. It really is too much of a sweeping statement to say women just want "macho men." I'd take smart a$$, nerdy guys any day of the week. I do notice that the girls that really go for the stereotypical, macho, football player guys tend to be women that aren't...the brightest crayons in the box. (?) I do think people pair based on similar intellects and interests, so I think I tend to be drawn to nerdy guys because I am also a nerd. Attraction only goes so far on a purely physical perspective.


Sean, I've gotta say ... you're learning! :D It's just so nice to see you use the word "generally" instead of "all". lol

But just so you know, remember all the non-macho guys in your high school? The book-worms, nerds, all the guys who didn't play sports? Well, they all found women to marry and have kids with too. This means there are plenty of women who love non-stereotypical macho guys. There's a big world out there with lots and lots of different types of people. :)

[Misskelly]

God, I just love nerdy guys. I apparently love computer scientists, because the last 3 guys I dated were in that field. It really is too much of a sweeping statement to say women just want "macho men." I'd take smart a$$, nerdy guys any day of the week. I do notice that the girls that really go for the stereotypical, macho, football player guys tend to be women that aren't...the brightest crayons in the box. (?) I do think people pair based on similar intellects and interests, so I think I tend to be drawn to nerdy guys because I am also a nerd. Attraction only goes so far on a purely physical perspective.


I love nerdy guys too I mean who else am I gonna have work on my computer ** giggles ***

[busker]

I think you can find acceptance in your sexuality, but there are no on/off switches. Gay people have been saying this for years. We have finally been taken seriously by society when we say that this is not a choice...it's just who we are. I'm sure some CDs and TGs can relate in that statement. Back when it was viewed as being a choice and having an on/off switch, we were mentally insane and receiving electroshock therapy.

I will never perceive my sexuality as a choice. I can accept that people admit to their sexuality late in life, but I do believe it was there all along. I also will maintain that there is no off switch...no change in clothing will change sexuality.

I raised these views (actually from a different thread) on a LGBT meet and it was a sh*t storm. It's a pretty powerful thing that the majority of us hold on to that this is not a choice and does not go away. I had actually never heard of people claiming to be bisexual only when donning certain clothing items until I came to this site. [I would probably say it was just a rationalization.]

I'm not sure what that should tell you... But, if sexuality continues to bother you, I'd join my local LGBT group. If you told them you only have fantasies of men when you are dressed as a woman and sent actually attracted to men otherwise, they might call you a fetishist. They might also call you a fetishist if you say you are into CDs only when they are dressed and only attracted to TSs if they ate pre-op. But, at least you'd meet more people and maybe discover more about yourself. Heck, you may realize deep down you are flamingly gay and in denial....in that case, just get on the bus. My lesbian friend is waiting like a wolf because she thinks I'm a lesbian and not bi, but I keep disappointing her. Either way, they are good people and can answer your questions.

Bruni has an article in today's TIMES and now it seems that she admits to Bi but doesn't like the term. If I understood your reply, there is only lesbian, bi or straight. She is obviously not straight so is this just semantic games she is playing and not just a label-hater? and, if she is in a long term relationship with a woman, shouldn't she consider herself a lesbian?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/opinion/sunday/bruni-gay-wont-go-away-genetic-or-not.html?hp

there is a nice thing about being old and having one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel. I know what I am, and I won't have to be confused about what other people are for very much longer.

[ReineD]

shouldn't she consider herself a lesbian?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/opinion/sunday/bruni-gay-wont-go-away-genetic-or-not.html?hp

I read the article. Cynthia Nixon did say that for her, homosexuality is a choice. And I agree with the article's author: she has a right to her opinion.

If I were bi like Cynthia Nixon, I would also say that I have the ability to choose between being in a relationship with a man or a woman, since I am attracted to either one. My attraction to a person would not be influenced by their gender. After having been married to a man for 15 years and now engaged to be married to a woman, Cynthia can hardly say she is hetero. Even if she "chooses" to be hetero, her history proves that she is not. Her gendered sexual preference is flexible. A hetero person's is not.

Likewise, this does not mean that Cynthia could be attracted to every woman on this planet, or every man. She will be attracted to some people more than others and in this, she also has no choice.

[Jennifer8]

Taking care of a man in the bedroom and being treated like a lady is the must fulfilling and feminine experience.
Im new here and to all of this but i know for sure if i said that to any girls i know id prob get slapped or kicked in the balls! come on like do you really think that?

[Nigella]

Originally Posted by seanmuscle

Taking care of a man in the bedroom and being treated like a lady is the must fulfilling and feminine experience.


Im new here and to all of this but i know for sure if i said that to any girls i know id prob get slapped or kicked in the balls! come on like do you really think that?

glad someone else noticed this, I wonder is Mr Muscle is talking from experience???

[Gianna]

Im new here and to all of this but i know for sure if i said that to any girls i know id prob get slapped or kicked in the balls! come on like do you really think that?


glad someone else noticed this, I wonder is Mr Muscle is talking from experience???


I do. I have been happily married for 25+ years to a woman I love but can understand what seanmuscle is referring to. To me it would be taking the need of crossdressing to the highest degree to know what it feels like to be a woman. Eight or nine years ago, after many drinks at a work party (150+ guests), I let my defenses down and quietly revealed this very thought/desire to a visiting female co-worker (who would be flying back to the east coast the following morning.) Instead of slapping me or kicking me in the balls she told me she totally understood my feelings and asked if I knew where to go (GLBT) where I could talk to someone about it.

Maybe I'm missing something here but I think Mr. Muscle was being genuine and honest.
Gianna

[Contessa]

I have to consider myself as bi-curious. I want to say I'm straight but if I want to have sex with a woman when en drab and then I want to have sex still with a woman en femme then I am probably not straight. So wierd might work too. I am not attracted to men. But I am attracted to femininity and girly. I will not however act on my curiousity and do not want any attention paid to me. Well maybe from women! So Bi - Curious I believe.

Contessa Marie

[Renihoward]

I am bi and loving it.

[ArleneRaquel]

I am bi and loving it.

Amen sis! :battingeyelashes:

[Shananigans]

Couldn't have said it better, Reine.


I read the article. Cynthia Nixon did say that for her, homosexuality is a choice. And I agree with the article's author: she has a right to her opinion.

If I were bi like Cynthia Nixon, I would also say that I have the ability to choose between being in a relationship with a man or a woman, since I am attracted to either one. My attraction to a person would not be influenced by their gender. After having been married to a man for 15 years and now engaged to be married to a woman, Cynthia can hardly say she is hetero. Even if she "chooses" to be hetero, her history proves that she is not. Her gendered sexual preference is flexible. A hetero person's is not.

Likewise, this does not mean that Cynthia could be attracted to every woman on this planet, or every man. She will be attracted to some people more than others and in this, she also has no choice.

[whowhatwhen]

That's the problem though, her opinion that she "chose" is ultimately damaging what was already worked so hard for.
My issue is that it's a flat out lie used to boost her popularity at the expense of others.

[Jodygurl]

Since it seems that everyone is "fessing up" I will too. Well, "fessing up" sound like an admission of guilt so I suppose I'm declaring since I really have nothing to be ashamed of (well, except for my dismal ability to apply eyeliner). So, I'm bi too, Paulette.

I suggest that you stop worrying about it and just enjoy the expansion of your horizans.

[Sammy777]

I do. I have been happily married for 25+ years to a woman I love but can understand what seanmuscle is referring to.
To me it would be taking the need of crossdressing to the highest degree to know what it feels like to be a woman.

I revealed this very thought/desire to a visiting female co-worker. she told me she totally understood my feelings
and asked if I knew where to go (GLBT) where I could talk to someone about it.

Maybe I'm missing something here but I think Mr. Muscle was being genuine and honest.
Gianna

First off - what does being married for 25 yrs have to do with any of this if you revealed that desire to a co-worker and not your wife?

Are you sure "asked if I knew where to go" didn't mean oh I don't know as in go to hell :lol2:
And "where I could talk to someone about it" didn't maybe mean -
You seriously need to see a shrink now go away. :heehee:

"it would be taking .... cross-dressing to the highest degree"
Would DRESSING like a mechanic take changing your oil to the highest degree too?

I agree with the others that pleasuring a man in bed does not equate to the pinnacle of womanhood.

[Shananigans]

I agree with the others that pleasuring a man in bed does not equate to the pinnacle of womanhood.[/COLOR][/B]

Thank you for this! I'm always very disappointed when men tell me that the highest womanly experience I can achieve is having sex with a man.

Haven't heard any GG say this...hmmm....

Here's your sign.

[StephanieDragg]

I am proud to say I am also bisexual so you are not alone by any means

[Sammy777]

Thank you for this!
I'm always very disappointed when men tell me that the highest womanly experience I can achieve is having sex with a man.

Haven't heard any GG say this...hmmm....

You are very welcome,
And I don't think you will hear it anytime soon [from a GG or at least this TS] either ;)

And if a guy tried that line on me he better be able to back up his claim with a verifiable pornstar resume' first then we would see. :lol2:

[CDTracey2U]

I can be a tad on the "Bi" side...with the right T-girl.

[Cindia]

Thank you for this! I'm always very disappointed when men tell me that the highest womanly experience I can achieve is having sex with a man.

Haven't heard any GG say this...hmmm....

Here's your sign.


For some CD types, (yes, me included), there is a strong sexual part of our crossdressing. In that respect, playing a female role in a sexual encounter with a man is pretty much the ultimate CD experience.

Any GG or TS that would feel that this was true would have some serious self esteem issues at the very least.

[Shananigans]

For some CD types, (yes, me included), there is a strong sexual part of our crossdressing. In that respect, playing a female role in a sexual encounter with a man is pretty much the ultimate CD experience.

Any GG or TS that would feel that this was true would have some serious self esteem issues at the very least.

It's kind of even sad that it is the "ultimate CDing experience" because of the fact that it relies on some faceless outsider to give you an "ultimate experience". It is also implicating that CDs can only fulfill a feminine role in bed with another male...however, lesbians have been doing quite the opposite for centuries.

Either way, I feel horrible for people with such a low self-esteem that validation from others is a necessary component to feeling better about themselves.

[sonna]

i'm something don't know what but i'm something. and i am happy about it

[Cindia]

It's kind of even sad that it is the "ultimate CDing experience" because of the fact that it relies on some faceless outsider to give you an "ultimate experience". It is also implicating that CDs can only fulfill a feminine role in bed with another male...however, lesbians have been doing quite the opposite for centuries.

Either way, I feel horrible for people with such a low self-esteem that validation from others is a necessary component to feeling better about themselves.

I don't mean to speak for all other CD's and don't think I implied that all CD's feel this way. From reading across this entire forum, I don't seem to share this part of the CD experience with the majority of those here.

I was trying to point out that some of us bisexual crossdressers feel this to be an ultimate sexual experience, not a definition of who we are.

Sex with a man is not what my crossdressing is all about. But it is sometimes, and being treated as a female sexually by a man is the ultimate sexual CDing experience for me and others, but of course not all. I'm sure for some CD's (if they have the sexual part) it would be a lesbian thing.

Either way, definitely not the ultimate life experience by any stretch.
It may be sad to you but to some it's just sex.

[Sammy777]

some of us bisexual crossdressers feel this to be an ultimate sexual experience.
being treated as a female sexually by a man is the ultimate sexual CDing experience for me. to some it's just sex.

I'm sure for some CD's (if they have the sexual part) it would be a lesbian thing.

To quote Tom Hanks in the movie Big "I don't get it".

Care to elaborate on how being dressed like a girl transforms sex with another guy from being "just sex" into the "ultimate sexual experience" for you.

And while you're at it - can you explain that "lesbian thing" remark to me too? :battingeyelashes:

[ReineD]

Care to elaborate on how being dressed like a girl transforms sex with another guy from being "just sex" into the "ultimate sexual experience" for you.

I can elaborate on this. For a CDer, it's the realization of a sublime fantasy that is fueled by the love of oneself as a woman. The term for this is autogynephilia, if you ignore Blanchard's theory that limits AGP to transsexuals. Actually if an individual is transsexual and is attracted to men, then the heightened feeling of arousal when she experiences sex as the woman she was meant to be, is not AGP in my opinion.

Back to Tami, it is what it is. There is nothing wrong with it if it makes you happy, and you can find sexual partners who also enjoy indulging in the fantasy with you.

[Gianna]

I don't mean to speak for all other CD's and don't think I implied that all CD's feel this way.

Tami,

I didn't take it that you implied that all CD's feel this way, just some. I also found it easy to understand your point that some MTF crossdressers, without the biological equipment needed to consumate hetero sex with a man could understandably elevate their ideal of being a complete woman through experiencing the physical and emotional sensations a true female would have during normal intercourse. More importantly, I agree with you that just like a GG, a CD'r can periodically give in to her urges for intimacy while still prudently exercising the same discretion and personal esteem in choosing a partner that isn't a 'faceless outsider' for 'just sex'.

Gianna

[ReineD]

I agree with you that just like a GG, a CD'r can periodically give in to her urges for intimacy while still prudently exercising the same discretion and personal esteem in choosing a partner that isn't a 'faceless outsider' for 'just sex'.

I understand what you're saying if this person is gay or bi. But I don't get the "periodic" part. I mean, if the CD is into the male partner because there is a real attraction there, why should being dressed make any difference?

Also, would this person's partner feel that he is having sex just as he would with a GG? If not, wouldn't there be a disconnect somewhere?

[Cindia]

I can elaborate on this. For a CDer, it's the realization of a sublime fantasy that is fueled by the love of oneself as a woman. The term for this is autogynephilia, if you ignore Blanchard's theory that limits AGP to transsexuals. Actually if an individual is transsexual and is attracted to men, then the heightened feeling of arousal when she experiences sex as the woman she was meant to be, is not AGP in my opinion.

Back to Tami, it is what it is. There is nothing wrong with it if it makes you happy, and you can find sexual partners who also enjoy indulging in the fantasy with you.

You have it pretty much right. I didn't mention autogynephilia because of Blanchard's application of it to transsexuals. I think he is way of base there. According to that idea, the late transitioning TS is doing for a sexual need to be a woman. I don't buy that.

The term should apply really to crossdressers like me that get sexual gratification from dressing and acting female.

Sammy; the lesbian thing was meant to say that while for me it would be sex with a man, for others it could be with a woman in a lesbian type way. Of course when you get to down to it, I'm having gay sex and those with a woman would be having straight sex, our crossdressing helps with our fantasy, illusion, what have you.
I'm talking crossdressers only here, not transsexuals.

If I didn't make it clear, amend "ultimate sexual experience" to "ultimate crossdressing sexual experience" . If it was the the ultimate ultimate, I'd be seeking that for every time.

[Eve II]

No question - I'm sooo Bi-Curious. Because of my relationship, I'll probably won't take the next step,but
I would love to be dressed to the "nines", be wined and dined, accept his "first move" and make out.

... and you know the rest.

That feeling/act is something women have been experiencing since the dawn of man.

[Regan]

Eve

I love your response, you and I think a lot alike.

Regan

[JessicaM1985]

I understand what you're saying if this person is gay or bi. But I don't get the "periodic" part. I mean, if the CD is into the male partner because there is a real attraction there, why should being dressed make any difference?

Also, would this person's partner feel that he is having sex just as he would with a GG? If not, wouldn't there be a disconnect somewhere?

Just my opinion, but I feel that there are suppressed bisexual tendencies that are allowed to surface only when said person is dressed. Once the clothes are put away and the makeup comes off, the inhibitions are put back on. When it comes to the issue of sexuality, a lot of men are stubborn. It becomes an issue of chest-beating to prove that they are manlier than most and go to great lengths to prove that they are not gay/bi. The thing that has baffled me senseless is that I still see the same behavior even on these forums and even in this thread. :lol:

I'm sorry to have to be the mean girl that breaks it to you ladies, but dressed or not, if you have thoughts of being with a man, you are at the very least bicurious. Understand that it's OKAY to feel that way, but please don't lie to yourself. You're too nice of people to allow yourselves to be lied to. By all means dress as part of a fantasy, but recognize it for what it is; a fantasy.

[Gianna]

Oh Eve! I think you nailed it! It just is.
Gianna

[Miss Lisa]

If I were to be honest I would say I am definatly bi curious. When I was younger I did have some sexual experiences with men that basically took advantage of our friendship, older men in fact that I would not even think about having sex with now. My memories are very dulled but am curious about trying it again now I am older but like a lot of the others here I do not want a rough tough hairy man. I think that would be way too intimidating to enjoy. Yeah put me on the curious list. Lol:heehee:

[candice44]

I am a straight male right now. I don't know how I will feel but when I transition to become a woman I have a feeling I will be bi.

[Gianna]

I understand what you're saying if this person is gay or bi. But I don't get the "periodic" part...




Sex with a man is not what my crossdressing is all about. But it is sometimes.

I used the word periodically out of respect for Tammy when she said her crossdressing was about sex only sometimes. Also, I wanted to stay away from the sweeping generalizations of the few prior posts and say that a crossdresser can be selectively intimate with an attractive man on more than a physical level (regardless of whether or not she is dressed.)

Sorry if I my post was confusing.

Gianna

[Chrissy.Sexton]

Only with another CD - and then very selectively.

[thickCDgirl]

Being treated as a female sexually by a man would be nice, if i found the right guy.

[ME2.0]

Hi Paulette. I want to welcome you to a place where you are definately NOT the oddball. This is the place where there are so many oddballs, that we are now the norm and the previously normal people are now the oddballs. You will always be accepted here. This forum serves many purposes-and one of them I've found out personally-is a support group.

Personally I don't think that people fit into the three categories of straight, bi, or gay. I think of it this way: straight is at one end zone, bi is the 50 yard line, and gay is the other end zone. Where you stand on the field is up to you. I'd say I'm somewhere around the 25 yard line towards the straight end zone. But no matter where you stand on this field, if you're a good positive person, I'd like you anyway. I tried the rational that since I crossdress I must be gay. I almost forced myself to try bi activities before I figured out (with the help of this forum) that sexuality and crossdressing aren't so intertwined for some people as they are for others.

If you are into this hobby for "sex and turn-ons", there's nothing wrong with that either. I'll admit I'd love to find myself sexy in photos, but I don't do this to have sex or masturbate (And mess up THIS skirt, you've gotta be kidding!!)

You can relax. You're normal. Everyone here is normal. We just define normal a bit differently than the neighbors.

If you love us, we'll love you

Staci

[ReineD]

Personally I don't think that people fit into the three categories of straight, bi, or gay.

Kinsey came up with a six level scale of sexual preference:

http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/resources/ak-hhscale.html

There is also a seventh category not included in this scale: asexualily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexuality)

[Tuesday Theriot]

Both my wife and I are more or less bisexual, but neither of us could score easily on those sexual preference scales. We'd be all over the scales during different parts of our lives and even somewhat from day to day. We always believed that people's sexuality is more fluid with personal experiences and shifting interests tilting the scales in different directions.

[ReineD]

We always believed that people's sexuality is more fluid with personal experiences and shifting interests tilting the scales in different directions.

I once read (can't remember if it was a study, or someone's opinion in the field), that bisexuality can be a stepping stone to homosexuality, because homosexuality still carries a strong stigma. Even if someone is bisexual, they have a relationship/sexual preference for either males or females, and this can change over time to strongly preferring the same sex over the opposite sex.

The Kinsey scale concept would make sense for someone who travels through level 2 to level 5 or 6, say over the course of 10-20 years.

[Mistybtm]

I fall in the 3 to 4 area using the Kinsey scale, been there my whole adult life and most likely my teen years as well but never ackted apon it much back then. But i did start cross dressing when in was in my young teens.

[ArleneRaquel]

Since I went female 24/7 my Bi side had grown by leaps & bounds.

[Tuesday Theriot]

-Originally posted by ReineD-
I once read (can't remember if it was a study, or someone's opinion in the field), that bisexuality can be a stepping stone to homosexuality, because homosexuality still carries a strong stigma. Even if someone is bisexual, they have a relationship/sexual preference for either males or females, and this can change over time to strongly preferring the same sex over the opposite sex.

You know, Reine, I heard the same thing and it probably does happen. In my random, rambling belief system, I believe it happens to people that are mostly gay and going through a stage of "finding themselves."

Plus, I've also found that older bisexuals often wind up almost fully immersed in the gay lifestyle. It's a little bit more accepting and easier to navigate. Self identified straight people can make life difficult even if they claim to be completely open minded. Even simple curiosity spawns some fairly strange and often patronizing questions. Some straight folks, newly confronted by people different than they are, can seem like they have multiple personalities, changing attitudes to conform to others on the scene.

Despite living in a small, ridiculously conservative, southern town, the majority of our closest friends are bi, gay or really don't care. (Unfortunately, we know no CD's or TS's) Some may self identify as gay while dating the opposite gender. Others claim to be bi and are only intimate with their SO's. I respect the way they self identify. How they feel about themselves is really the most important consideration.That's why my wife and I believe that sexuality is fluid for all but the most intransigent.

Young boys and girls in private, single gender schools affect courtship behaviors usually reserved for the opposite gender. For instance, best girlfriends can swap jackets or rings and hold hands in the hallways. The gender isolated boys seem more likely to 'experiment' with same sex activity. Even with adults, most folks that would feel obliged to hurt you if you even suggested that they're gay will readily enter into same sex activity and even courtship rituals once they're segregated from society at large.

I'm not saying that some folks can't be 100% straight or 100% gay. I'm just trying to say that through my a priori reasoning combined with my own limited experiences, once we strip everything down to the bare essentials, those people would likely be the exceptions rather than the rule.

As for me, my general preference typically leans toward what I can't have at the time.

[Sammy777]

What I do not get is this apparent need to transpose one "taboo" subject [Bisexuality] on top of the other [CD'ing] in order to somehow justify it by saying the second [Bisexuality] is only present when the first [CD'ing] is.

In English:
What is so inherently wrong with wanting to take part in a Bisexual encounter.
Why the need to use Cross dressing as a crutch to justify it.
Is there something so wrong with wanting to take a [male] sexual partner that it can only be [mentally] done while under the guise of being thought of as a woman?

Granted there is more of a stigma regarding males being Bisexual then there is for females. Reflected in the fact that more often then not males are less willing to openly admit being Bi.

Why not just get past the BS, cut out the middle man and get straight to it.
Why dress when ultimately once the clothes come off the end result is the same as above.
Doing this seems to marginalize the act of dressing to mere role playing and costumes.

The above is in no way meant to encompass all CD'ers or Bisexual acts. :battingeyelashes:


http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt230/samanthaM76/open%20album/jedi2.gif

[HairyBethCD]

I once read (can't remember if it was a study, or someone's opinion in the field), that bisexuality can be a stepping stone to homosexuality, because homosexuality still carries a strong stigma. Even if someone is bisexual, they have a relationship/sexual preference for either males or females, and this can change over time to strongly preferring the same sex over the opposite sex.
I know an anecdote is <> data but in my experience, I find the opposite. As I get older, I'm less fussed about any man action. The only bi male I know who has gone the other way is because his wife is totally uninterested in sex so it's his only outlet whilst staying true (i.e. no females) to his wife.

[Shananigans]

I once read (can't remember if it was a study, or someone's opinion in the field), that bisexuality can be a stepping stone to homosexuality, because homosexuality still carries a strong stigma. Even if someone is bisexual, they have a relationship/sexual preference for either males or females, and this can change over time to strongly preferring the same sex over the opposite sex.

The Kinsey scale concept would make sense for someone who travels through level 2 to level 5 or 6, say over the course of 10-20 years.

I think this is pretty true for a lot of people. Sometimes we joke in the community that bisexual is the definition of "60/40". Meaning, you prefer sex with one gender 60% of the time and the other gender 40% of the time. (It's just a joke though, because no one can really say that this is true, but it seems like the case for a few people). It seems to fit well in Kinsey's scale. And, we would say, that depending on how your relationships go with one gender, might make you lean away from it and start dating the other more frequently.

I think over the years, I have come to pursue women more. And, found a happiness in my SO. Last night at dinner, my SO and I were talking about our gay friend and one of his "down low" encounters with one of our "straight" friends. In the middle of dinner, I put my hand up and said, "STOP! I am getting a visual and it's freaking me out!" And, because I am kind of ADHD I off-handedly examined this concept and said, "Why is it that the image of two dudes going at each other really grosses me out?" My SO kind of became a sounding board for what was going on in my head at this point. I explained that two girls having sex is attractive to me, heterosexual sex is attractive to me...but, two dudes having sex absolutely does nothing for me. I joked and said, "I think penises look pretty weird...I have never understood why guys insist on taking pictures of their junk for me. I'd be worried about this if I didn't find p*ssies to be pretty weird looking too. But, overall, women are more attractive and make up for a situation involving men." My SO was silent for a while and then said, "Sometimes, I feel like I am dating a lesbian...and, I strangely I am OK with this lol." I guess my appreciation on many levels for Cami (my SO's feminine half) adds a whole new dimension to our relationship.

But, I feel like this DEFINITELY evolved over my relationship with my SO and the lesbian relations that we have in the bedroom. I think there is a lot to be said about the evolution of sexuality theory. However, I still find men attractive and would date them. I love Ryan (my SO) and find him very attractive. Still, I find myself involved more in lesbian encounters with my SO and more comfortable in those situations.

[ReineD]

The only bi male I know who has gone the other way is because his wife is totally uninterested in sex so it's his only outlet whilst staying true (i.e. no females) to his wife.

Why would your friend believe that having sex with another man doesn't count? This is rationalization to the extreme.

[FeminineFantasy]

I am a straight CD who has never done anything with a man as a man or enfemme. I am just not attracted to men. I have to admit tho, when I am enfemme, I am totally bi-curious, but just orally. And that is as far as that goes. I wouldnt want to be a top nor a bottom. I love females!! Confuzzled!!! lol

[Marleena]

These threads come up quite often. Remember that a fantasy is just a fantasy unless acted upon.

Now, wouldn't it be great if society progressed to a point where all labels were gone. You know, no more if you do this, you are this...

Shouldn't it be if you are single and attracted to somebody of either sex and it's mutual, you just have sex? As long as it's between consenting adults who cares? I really don't care what other people do in their bedrooms it's none of my business. Hopefully we'll get to that point some day where it really doesn't matter about one's sexual preferences.

[whowhatwhen]

People like boning, people like being boned.
People like crossdressing, some people like being boned while crossdressing BI or not.

I can see where it's confusing but I suppose it's just one of those things that feels good, maybe he wants to be the girl in bed for a night.
Hopefully not TMI but I'm trying to think about Sammy's post.

[Acastina]

I agree, but it also goes beyond that. The big bugaboo right now is the "T" is LGBQT. What does being TG have to do with sexual orientation? And, CDing is under the TG umbrella...what do clothes have to do with sexual orientation?

Potentially, a lot. One rational view of the terminology is that there should basically be a capital "T" followed by lower-case "gbq". Conventional wisdom used to be that TG was a subset of gay, but now it seems that TG as an umbrella term denotes anything that transgresses cultural norms regarding sex and gender. In that view, gender identity and sexual orientation are discrete issues within the TG cluster of phenomena. Human sexuality is definitely expressed, at least in part, through clothing and other decoration such as makeup and jewelry, as well as, obviously, behavior, which in turn is also often gender-coded. Sexuality is obviously gender-related, since sex and gender are used interchangeably more often than not. In fact, the whole hetero-homo-bi concept is gender (sex) dependent, since the labels vary with the physical sex (gender) of the partners.


There are fewer and fewer TG friendly places to go, when usually they were gay bars. But, most gay men don't want to be associated as being CDs. As my gay friend said, "I'm gay. I like men. I don't like men in dresses. I don't like men with boobs. I like penis and I like a man dressed as a man." I was a little put-off by this statement and thought it was a little blunt. But, I see what he means. He doesn't want his sexual orientation associated with CDing and things CDs do...he gets enough flack for being gay.

This is bigotry, an intolerant attachment to one's own beliefs. Your friend is so centered on his identity as a gay man that he is intolerant of other variations under the umbrella. The first label is "men", and then he lists the things he doesn't like about some "men". I read his sentiments as being highly intolerant, and I'm quite familiar with their prevalence in gay communities. To each his or her own, but he is condemning out of hand the lives of people he cannot understand or accept. In short, he won't grant "to each his own" to others who aren't different from the majority in the same way that he is different. I've met a lot of gay men and women I like and respect a lot, and a lot of others I can do without, but I don't condemn any of them for being who they are just because I'm not the same.


In fact, I don't want ANY image, clothing, or action describing or attributed to my sexuality. Bisexuality pure and simple is just being attracted to both men and women. It really has nothing to do with CDing and it has no on and off switch.

No nuance here, just more projection. To many people, especially here, their sexuality IS tangled up with images, clothing, and actions. Pure and simple, that's just the way it is, and for many CDs, clothing IS an on/off switch. Look at TG-related personals ads and see how many identify as "bi-CD". It is quite common for CD/TGs to be open to anatomically homosexual contact when dressed but not otherwise, and I make no judgments about that; I am one, in fact.

The human brain is extremely complex, and it's pretty clear that our sense of gender-self and reproductive-instinct responses are ongoing mysteries of the brain and human culture that exhibit normalities and anomalies that fall into some pretty familiar categories, which we call gender identity and sexual orientation. Within those, how many shades of gray can you count?

[Shananigans]

Acastina,

I think you misunderstood my quote. When I said, "What do clothes have to do with sexual orientation?" I wasn't implying that gender was separate of sexual orientation. Obviously, genders come into play because your attraction to certain genders determines your sexuality.

Now, being TG in terms of LGB...I think implying TG with any sort of mode of sexual orientation is misleading at best. Transgender in itself is a way to describe someone's gender identity. Their sexual orientation may be influenced in ways by being TG, or it might not be influenced at all. Whatever gender identity you ascribe to, it seems the main sexualities are heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual, and pansexual. This is why gender is seen as part of sexual identity, but not inherent of it. No matter what your gender identity may be, you can fall anywhere in a line of sexual orientations.

I also see a difference in "sexuality" and "sexual orientation." I do not argue with you that clothing and jewelry can be part of someone's sexuality, but you are not selling me in what it has to do with sexual orientation.

As for my friend, I agree the statement was somewhat bigoted. But, I also see quite often on here that CDing does not automatically mean that you are gay. Many people in society still have these notions (that all CDs are gay). Just as CDs get angry that someone would automatically think they are gay, my gay friend gets mad that gay is associated with CDing (and, people expect him to act feminine).

And, I definitely don't disagree with you that many CDs have sexual orientation tied up with clothing and actions. I just finding it very interesting that it seems to be a largely a CDing phenomenon. I don't doubt for these people that there are on/off switches for them and they can say that they are straight in "male mode" and homosexual in "female mode"...wrapping up with a somewhat crooked definition of bisexuality. (lol) This is partially where I diverge in my understanding. I do not understand how some CDs have two distinct personas...the "female" is of different sexual orientation, enjoys different activities/hobbies, acts/talks in different mannerisms. I have only really seen this behavior in psych rotations (though these people were not CDs to my knowledge)...and, here. I wish there were more literature on this subject. I am sure for people that assume a completely different life when they are "en femme," it can be quite easy to create a mental on/off switch with clothes. In fact, there is an on/off switch with many things they are doing...the hobbies, the activities, the sexuality, the walk, the speech, and the sexual orientation. I will admit that this behavior completely throws me and that I do not understand it. My experiences are mainly with my SO who embraces more of his feminine side, but still acts like the person I have always known.

I think until I can understand dual personalities and the on/off switches that some CDs can create in basically every aspect of their personalities, I will never quite understand how sexuality orientation can be turned on and off. However, I fall pretty clearly as having just one personality, one sexual orientation, and basically just being one person with her own set of beliefs, hobbies, and mannerisms.

Still, I can suspend my judgements for people that fall into these "two distinct personality categories" because I do realize how complex people are, and I do not know what deeper force that is causing them to create two personality halves. If it does not cause distress for this person to switch between two different personalities, and he can function normally in society...then, it really isn't a problem. But, I would definitely say that it is a very different "shade of grey" that probably needs to be studied more thoroughly to understand why certain CDs cope with this aspect of themselves by creating a different person with different interests/values than their "male mode."

[busker]

[B][COLOR="blue"]
In English:
What is so inherently wrong with wanting to take part in a Bisexual encounter.
Why the need to use Cross dressing as a crutch to justify it.

I would say that we are socialized in many ways and that is part of it. We need permission. Rationalization for the things we do. If you want to kill people, join the army, if you want to enforce the laws, be a cop, if you want to build buildings, be an architect. If you want to do A, you HAVE to do B, especially when it comes to having a sexual encounter with your own genetic sex. (I'm generalizing to make a point) I think we (men) easily accept women hugging, kissing, going to the bathroom together ( there seems to be lots of reasons for company) and think nothing of it, but on the other hand, it could be a lot of lesbian stuff going on and we , as males, are clueless about it. Two guys going to the bathroom together. Yeah, right. Hey look at those 2 Q's.

The other point is that sex between 2 males has to be homosexual sex--dressed or not. A person can be bisexual but an encounter cannot be.

[busker]

Acastina,


But, I also see quite often on here that CDing does not automatically mean that you are gay. Many people in society still have these notions (that all CDs are gay). Just as CDs get angry that someone would automatically think they are gay, my gay friend gets mad that gay is associated with CDing (and, people expect him to act feminine).

I grew up in the 50's and 60's and that is the stereotype of gay for that period. If you saw someone with a "limp" wrist, who spoke with a lisp , who looked a bit effeminate and dressed like it, they were gay. I was not aware of crossdressing as a classification, and I think most of us that grew up in that time period probably felt we were the "freaky gay guy", rather than having some other identity. I also think for a lot of modern society, CD's will always have a problem because that is what folks think--if you crossdress -- you are gay. No ifs ands or buts.

[ReineD]

I do not understand how some CDs have two distinct personas...the "female" is of different sexual orientation,

I might be oversimplifying it, but I believe that autogynephilia is the root cause, unless a CDer is attracted to both men and women in guy mode, in which case he would simply be bi. A change in clothing would make no difference.

By autogynephilia, I mean the love of oneself as a woman, and it is not only auto-eroticism while dressed. The love and sexualization of oneself as a woman does extend to a strong desire to gain the utmost accessory, a man, in order to heighten idealized feelings of femininity. In other words, it's a fetish for the CDers who are not attracted to men in guy mode. Would a self-defined hetero autogynephile (not a bisexual) be attracted to men in guy mode even if he wanted to?

To take this one step further, it could well be that an autogynephile CDer is not AGP at all, but is rather a late onset TS in denial who is merely expressing her natural sexuality as a hetero female. But only this TS can tell us whether the attraction to her GG wife was real all these years, or if the TS had lived behind a male mask so stringent that she only thought she had been attracted to GGs. Can the denial about sexual attraction and being TS be this deep? This is what I have difficulty understanding. I don't disbelieve it, I just can't imagine being so disconnected from the self for so many years. However, I've not been raised as a male in a homophobic society.

If a TS had been male-attracted from the beginning even in guy mode, then I can hardly see that when he believed he was a male CDer, he would have fantasized about being with a GG while dressed. Therefore, this TS would not be autogynephilic, since her sexual attraction does not change based on her presentation.

As a tangent, the CDers who come to believe they are bisexual: do they say this because they are attracted to men and women no matter how they're dressed, or do they prefer to say they are bi in order to explain an attraction to men only while dressed? I should ask the question in a thread some day. Also, do they say they are bi based on desires or fantasy, or has the desire been tested and approved in the bedroom with an actual man?

Shannon, to answer your question about different personalities (not sexual attractions) while dressed, I believe that some CDers form a thick wall around their feminine selves when they are young in order to hide who they are from a cruel world. And in the process they repress aspects of their fundamental personalities that they would not fear expressing if they were not CDers, especially past the teen-age, early manhood stages. There are men who like to do many things that CDers put in the "girly" camp. :p

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Shannon, to answer your question about different personalities (not sexual attractions) while dressed, I believe that some CDers form a thick wall around their feminine selves when they are young in order to hide who they are from a cruel world. And in the process they repress aspects of their fundamental personalities that they would not fear expressing if they were not CDers, especially past the teen-age, early manhood stages. There are men who like to do many things that CDers put in the "girly" camp. :p

I actually would take this a step farther and suggest that the feminine self is itself part of that thick wall. In the case of folks who identify as crossdressers, and not so much as elsewhere down the TG spectrum, I think a lot of that repressing of their personalities is what leads to developing the "female side" of themselves. I really do believe that is why we see so many more MtF transvestites/crossdressers than we do FtM, because women have for the last century or so given themselves more freedom to do things that some might put in the "guy" camp the way CDers will put some things in the "girly" camp. I wonder if so many CDers would have ever developed the girl side of their personalities if they hadn't been worried about expressing the more "girly" sides of their personalities at a younger age, before they boxed it away.

[Shananigans]

I really do believe that is why we see so many more MtF transvestites/crossdressers than we do FtM, because women have for the last century or so given themselves more freedom to do things that some might put in the "guy" camp the way CDers will put some things in the "girly" camp. I wonder if so many CDers would have ever developed the girl side of their personalities if they hadn't been worried about expressing the more "girly" sides of their personalities at a younger age, before they boxed it away.

I just got back from dinner with my SO. When the subject of the check came around, I told my SO that I would pay since dinner/drinks were my suggestion. He kind of laughed and said, "I think the waiter just might hand you the check anyway since you kept ordering for me." I was a little confused and I said, "Oh sh*t...I guess I did order for you. I guess I also was the one who put our name on the list, but gave your name." My SO said I always do this, and he joked about me wearing the pants in the relationship. As I have said before, I am, of course, not FtM. However, I do tend to be the one who takes the lead in the relationship and am quite comfortable in my role. (I did ask my SO if it bothered him and he said he kind of liked it). It's funny that the decisions that I make and the position I play in the relationship is usually one that would be the more "masculine" side. (Even if I do not look the part). It also seems that I know quite a few women like myself. I also wonder if since my SO gets a lot of acceptance from me, his family, and his friends if it is easier for him to NOT compartmentalize. Instead, it is OK for him to integrate both his "male" and "female" sides into a whole person. Now, this is bothersome because it implies that CDs that DO compartmentalize are not "whole." Is it instead autogynephilia? I don't know.

I did find this research on the subject of autogynephilia and sexual orientation:

"The results showed that, overall, transsexuals tended to place more importance on partner’s physical attractiveness and reported higher scores on Blanchard’s Core Autogynephilia Scale than biological females. In addition, transsexuals classified as autogynephilic scored significantly higher on Attraction to Feminine Males, Core Autogynephilia, Autogynephilic Interpersonal Fantasy, Fetishism, Preference for Younger Partners, Interest in Uncommitted Sex, Importance of Partner Physical Attractiveness, and Attraction to Transgender Fiction than other transsexuals and biological females. In accordance with Blanchard’s theory, autogynephilia measures were positively correlated to Sexual Attraction to Females among transsexuals. In contrast to Blanchard’s theory, however, those transsexuals classified as autogynephilic scored higher on average on Sexual Attraction to Males than those classified as non-autogynephilic, and no transsexuals classified as autogynephilic reported asexuality."

Source: Veale, J. (2008). Sexuality of Male-to-Female Transsexuals. Archives Of Sexual Behavior, 37(4), 586.

I'll do a bit more research on this subject in my spare time. I'm trying to find articles that are all still relevant (last 5 years).

[girlalex]

I'm pretty sure I'm bi as well. Ye, I also would be happy to go on a date with a man all dressed up more so than with a female, cuz then I'll have to be wearing guy clothes which i don't like very much. Guy clothes are all the same dull color and designs. Living as a male is straight up boring. Maybe that's why I'm board even when I have stuff to do lol.

[Shananigans]

Here's what got the ball rolling, btw:

"The favorite fantasies of many autogynephilic men involve the thought of themselves, as women, engaging in sexual intercourse or other erotic activities. Male patients at this gender identity clinic, for example, commonly report inserting ***** into their rectum while masturbating; this behavior is accompanied by the fantasy that their anus is a vagina." (Edited for the forum).

"Some autogynephiles fuse the idea of being a woman with their sexual attractions toward real women in sexual fantasies in which they are lesbians engaging in lesbian interactions. The erotic idea of interpersonal sexuality in the cross-gender role may also find expression in the fantasy of having intercourse, as a woman, with a man. The male partner represented in these fantasies is usually a vague, anonymous figure rather than a real person and probably has little excitatory function beyond that of completing the fantasy of vaginal intercourse in the female role."

"In this study I examine the second hypothesis suggested by Hirschfeld's (1948) observation, namely, that autogynephilia and normally directed heterosexual interest are competing drives (or behaviors or orientations). The subjects were adult male outpatients who reported histories of dressing in women's garments, of feeling like women, or both. These were selected without regard to sexual orientation, and the sample included men who reported all degrees of sexual attraction to adult women."

"The first hypothesis predicted that men who reported little interest in (real) women would also report little autogynephilia; as one would move along the continuum from subjects with low levels of heterosexual attraction toward subjects with intermediate levels, the amount of observed autogynephilia ought to increase. The second hypothesis concerned the middle-to-high range of the heterosexual interest continuum. The notion of intrinsic competition implies that high degrees of interest in the one type of sexual object preclude high degrees of interest in the other. Thus, as one would move further along the continuum from subjects with intermediate levels of heterosexual attraction to subjects with high levels, the amount of observed autogynephilia ought to reverse direction and begin to decrease again. In operational terms, the combined hypotheses imply that a plotted function to relate measures of autogynephilia and heterosexual interest would take the form of an inverted U."

Results: "As already stated, the hypothesis that autogynephilia arises in association with heterosexuality but also competes with it leads to the prediction that the highest levels of autogynephilia will be found in association with intermediate rather than high levels of heterosexual interest. Figure 1 shows that the core autogynephilia curve displayed the predicted, inverted-U shape, as did the curve for autogynephilic interpersonal fantasy. In contrast, the functions for androphilia and gender dysphoria showed a monotonic decrease, also as predicted."

Discussion: "The results of this study support the hypothesis that autogynephilia and normal heterosexual attraction are competing phenomena. It is not possible at this time to specify exactly how or when they compete; we do not know how sexual orientations, including heterosexuality, develop in the first place, let alone precisely how they interact. There are, however, some bases for speculating that autogynephilia and heterosexuality may compete in two distinct ways.

In some if not most sexual variations, a man's sexual attraction to a variant object commonly occurs at the expense of sexual interest in physically mature women. Sexual attraction to the male body is usually accompanied by sexual indifference to the female body (Freund, 1974; Van Wyk & Geist, 1984), and strong attraction to the prepubescent female physique is frequently associated with diminished interest in the mature physique (Barbaree & Marshall, 1989). Similarly, a powerful sexual attraction to such nonreproductive structures as the feet is generally associated with unresponsiveness to the vulva (see Ellis, 1936). Such trade-offs usually stabilize by adolescence, although the relative strengths of a man's heterosexual and variant tendencies may not be reflected in overt behavior until much later, because of guilt, fear, or limited opportunity. These models suggest that one type of competition between autogynephilia and heterosexual attraction primarily operates during psychosexual development, with permanent consequences for the mature man's relative responsiveness to autogynephilic versus heterosexual stimulation. I refer to this type of competition as developmental competition.

Clinical experience suggests that there may be a second type of competition observable in men who reach sexual maturity with substantial levels of both heterosexual and autogynephilic motivation. This type of competition occurs when a previous equilibrium between these erotic interests is disturbed by another sexual development, namely, romantic love. It is not rare for a heterosexual male cross-dresser or gender dysphoric to report that when he first met a woman and fell in love, his desires to cross-dress or engage in other cross-gender behaviors diminished or disappeared, sometimes for longer than a year. When, however, the intensity of passionate love resolved into the mellower comforts of married life, his desires to dress or live as a female reasserted themselves. This type of competition I characterize as dynamic competition.

In this two-component competition model, developmental competition determines an adult man's baseline levels of heterosexual and autogynephilic motivation, whereas dynamic competition—in autogynephiles who fall in love—produces local fluctuations in these levels, temporarily increasing heterosexual motivation at the expense of autogynephilic motivation.

Although this model implies that developmental and dynamic competition conjointly determine an autogynephile's behavior at any given time, it is likely that my data primarily reflect developmental competition. That is because patients usually present before they have fallen in love or after they have fallen out of it; they rarely present while they are falling in love (and losing interest in cross-gender activities). Perhaps they prefer, in that state, to forget about problems that seem to have cured themselves anyway. At any rate, patients' uniform tendency to seek help when they are not in love means that the great majority are assessed when they are at or near their baseline levels of heterosexual and autogynephilic motivation. Thus, the main finding of this study probably reflects individual differences in baseline levels—the end results of developmental competition —more than it does individual differences in current amatory status.

This investigation did not find that significantly lower levels of transvestism were reported by subjects who experienced the highest levels of heterosexual attraction. This result suggests that heterosexuality and transvestism are relatively compatible orientations. That conclusion seems to contradict Person and Ovesey's (1978) clinical observation that in transvestism “interpersonal sexuality is almost always attenuated” (p. 307). My findings for transvestism, taken together with those for autogynephilia, suggest that it may not be transvestism per se that competes with normal heterosexual attraction so much as the autogynephilia that often accompanies transvestism.

The methodology of this research was suggested by a finding from Blanchard and Hucker's (1991) large-scale study of autoerotic asphyxial fatalities. They investigated the relations among paraphilic activities carried out concurrently with self-asphyxiation. The two most common activities were bondage (the self-application of ropes or other constraints mechanically irrelevant to the asphyxial apparatus) and transvestism. The curve relating the number of constricting devices to the number of feminine garments on the corpse took the form of an inverted U. Blanchard and Hucker suggested a twofold explanation of this result: The occurrence of the one interest increases the likelihood of the other, at the same time that it competes with it for attention or expression. They conjectured that other erotic interests, when examined pairwise, might also prove to have inverted-U-shaped relations, and they cited in this connection Rooth's (1973) remark that those exhibitionists with the highest rates of exposing might be less prone to acts of sexual violence than exhibitionists with lower rates of exposing.

This study is probably the first to predict a nonmonotonic relation between psychosexual variables beforehand, and its results reinforce Blanchard and Hucker's (1991) conjecture that such relations may not be rare in sexology. These empirical findings underscore the general principle that one must examine the curves relating pairs of variables before using statistical procedures that assume linearity (e.g., correlation or correlation-based techniques). The inappropriate use of such procedures will produce misleading results in factor-analytic or other exploratory studies of variant sexuality designed to identify clusters of related paraphilias (e.g., Paitich, Langevin, Freeman, Mann, & Handy, 1977)."

Source: Blanchard, R. (1992). Nonmonotonic relation of autogynephilia and heterosexual attraction. Journal Of Abnormal Psychology, 101(2), 271-276. doi:10.1037/0021-843X.101.2.271

[Sammy777]

I also would be happy to go on a date with a man all dressed up more so than with a female, cuz then I'll have to be wearing guy clothes

Why the need to be dressed/seen as a guy while on a date with a girl?

[Shananigans]

Why the need to be dressed/seen as a guy while on a date with a girl?

Because, lesbians aren't real.

Also, these sound like heterosexual inclinations from girlalex...so, putting things in terms of two lesbians would break those inclinations.

Man dates someone portraying woman (heterosexually viewed if passable); male dates GG (heterosexually viewed).

[ReineD]

Instead, it is OK for him to integrate both his "male" and "female" sides into a whole person. Now, this is bothersome because it implies that CDs that DO compartmentalize are not "whole." Is it instead autogynephilia? I don't know.

I know you've researched and quoted some theories about autogynephilia since you wrote the above, but I just want to clarify: AGP has to do with sexual behaviors and preferences only, not different personality traits when dressed vs. guy mode, such as being more outgoing, liking different music, enjoying different hobbies, or preferring doing housework.

[Sammy777]

Because, lesbians aren't real.

:lol: :lol2: :lol: :lol2: :lol: :lol2: :lol:

How silly of me to forget that.

[Sammy777]

I've read and re-read this thread several times now.
What I find is a disturbing trend among CD'ers here who continue to hold the belief that their Male side is a distinct and separate [personality] from their Female side.

Thus giving way to the phenomenon of being able to seemly adjust a purportedly fixed aspect of ones personality, their sexual orientation, based solely on how they present themselves at any given time.

I realized there is a classification for people who display this characteristic.

Psychosis (redirected from a psychotic break) (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/A+psychotic+break)
Definition- Psychosis: is a symptom or feature of mental illness typically characterized by radical changes in personality, impaired functioning, and a distorted or nonexistent sense of objective reality.

[Shananigans]

Sammy, I don't think psychosis is really right. At the surface it sounds similar, but when someone is psychotic they usually can't "switch back to normal." The disconnect with reality is so great that they cannot function in society. It seems like a lot of CDs that DL this are still functioning and are able to switch back and forth at will to more appropriate thought processes.

Also, there HAS been a lot of research on changing personality ONLINE. I mean look where we are and posting. Many people are not who they portray online...perhaps, a CD would take that to a whole different level?


I know you've researched and quoted some theories about autogynephilia since you wrote the above, but I just want to clarify: AGP has to do with sexual behaviors and preferences only, not different personality traits when dressed vs. guy mode, such as being more outgoing, liking different music, enjoying different hobbies, or preferring doing housework.

Yep, you're right, Reine. It seems like no one has done research into that area... It's actually kind of disappointing that we have been doing a whole lot of expanding on the AGP theory or MTF sexuality in the past 5 years. I doubt there will be a lot of research into seperate personas thing.

God, if only I could somehow turn that into a nursing problem, research it, chunk out a paper, and get a scholarship.

[darla_g]

wow long thread. to turn this discussion around 180 degrees my wife told me that this whole notion of being with someone of the same sex is why some women (not saying all women) are really turned off by crossdressers in general. They don't want to be with another woman and this is why they might have an issue accepting it.

As for male crossdressers, I dunno. when dressed i have no attraction to men. I guess the only way i could have ever seen anything like this happening is if there were a woman involved too. Personally i think with some people (not saying all) the pink fog prevails and they get the notion that their feminine persona is so strong that they could see themselves with a man.

[Acastina]

This thread is drifting and wandering.

1. I certainly don't consider my dualness to be a multiple-personality manifestation. Far from being "discrete" personas, there is tremendous overlap between one's guy and girl modes. Multiple personality situations are essentially psychotic; the person doesn't realize that the other personas exist while in one. I never forget or disregard my entire life history, preferences, interests, and so forth while exploring and exercising my advanced and manifested feminine side, and I don't think others do, either.

2. Dr. Blanchard's autogynephilia theory is just that, a theory, not a proven fact. It is but one way of attempting to describe transgendered behaviors, and the sexual arousal patterns of some TG/CDs in particular. Like all such informed theories, it has substantial conceptual appeal, but exceptions abound, which certainly calls into question both its validity and its general applicability. IMHO, quoting at length from 20-year-old clinical writings adds little to this conversation. Blanchard's theory has plenty of critics, and AGP doesn't really address bisexuality (the topic here) in any meaningful way. My personal take on AGP, dating back to its first entry into TG science, is questioning whether it states a causal relationship to TG/CD sexual-arousal patterns or simply compiles and describes behaviors. In other words, is AGP a pathology that distorts TG/CD sexuality from some kind of posited "normal", or is it merely a conceptual description of common TG/CD sexual behaviors? If the latter, it's useful as a tool for understanding and comparing; if the former, welcome to a debate that has raged out in the open for decades without reaching a consensus. As a way of explaining the causes of TG behaviors, it's inadequate psychobabble compared to real possibilities like brain-wiring anomalies in utero, many of which have been verified in lab-rat experiments that tinker with prenatal hormone doses to produce male rats with female sexual behaviors and vice-versa. I place it somewhere above Freud's classic, discredited strong-mother/weak-father nurture theories but below real, verifiable agents of causation, whatever they may someday be found to be.

3. Viewing male-male sex as homosexual by definition flies in the face of the experiences of many TG folk. Male/female is anatomy; man/woman is a social construct of expectations and behaviors. I don't know how anyone with an open mind could watch gay porn and ******* porn without noticing the difference and realizing that the TG "women" in the latter may be anatomically male but appear to approach sex from a female perspective, albeit with all kinds of variations that are more of commercial value to the industry than they are indicative of typical TG sexuality (e.g., BDSM, ******* topping male, and so forth). ******* porn looks a lot more like straight porn than it does like gay porn, and it's not just the clothes. As Shannon's intolerant gay friend said, he doesn't like "men" acting like "women"; he wants a man, and that's homosexual. Male with TG/CD male is something different.

So, I think the "bi-CD" phenomenon is just one more of the mesmerizing aspects of TG people and behaviors, common but hardly universal. It's not psychotic, and it's heterosexual in the context of those binary expectations and behaviors of a gendered culture. I'll close with a line from one of my songs: "As the hand of fate takes the gift of time/There's little we can do/But marvel at the mystery we often misconstrue".

It is a marvelous mystery, no?

[ReineD]

Like all such informed theories, it [AGP] has substantial conceptual appeal, but exceptions abound, which certainly calls into question both its validity and its general applicability.

It makes sense there are exceptions when theorizing about any human condition since there are many variables that determine people's motives. I do not presume to come up with a single explanation as to why some CDer's sexual preferences change when they are dressed. But, the AGP theory seems to fit the CDers in this forum (not the TSs) who have read it and acknowledge that the thought of themselves as women is the driving force behind a sexual manifestation of the CDing.



Blanchard's theory has plenty of critics,

Yes it does, and deservedly so, among the heterosexual TSs who do not feel their gender dysphoria is paraphilic. I don't know enough about Blanchard to determine why he limited his theory to transsexuals and did not take into account the CDing population. But, in a CDing context, the theory has been validated by some of the members here as being true for them.



and AGP doesn't really address bisexuality (the topic here) in any meaningful way.

I also don't know how Blanchard would have defined the patients who reported a sexual attraction to males and females before transition. Would he have classified them as homosexual, and therefore not paraphilic? At any rate I also do not see in this particular article any mention of bisexuality. But again, Blanchard's theory attempted to explain a TS's motive for transition and not a CDer's changing sexual preferences while dressed. From a common sense point of view without necessarily finding proof in academic research (if this is possible :p), doesn't it stand to reason that if someone is bi, he will be bi even in guy mode, especially if sexual attraction is thought to be independent of gender identification?



In other words, is AGP a pathology that distorts TG/CD sexuality from some kind of posited "normal", or is it merely a conceptual description of common TG/CD sexual behaviors? If the latter, it's useful as a tool for understanding and comparing; if the former, welcome to a debate that has raged out in the open for decades without reaching a consensus.

I think the pathology lies in the concept of a sexual manifestation of a CDer's self-love as a woman, as an object not dissimilar to any other object-oriented fetish, as opposed to a sexual attraction to another human being. Herein lies the difficulty: how can one measure whether there is a true attraction to a male, or if the male serves as an accessory to emphasize the occasional thoughts of being a woman? Again, I find it hard to understand that if there is a true attraction to males, why it would not be present in guy mode. I suppose a theory might be that fear of homophobic repercussion can cause some men to stay in denial over a real attraction to other males, but then why would they have difficulty with this yet embrace the CDing, which is equally stigmatized in our society?



******* porn looks a lot more like straight porn than it does like gay porn, and it's not just the clothes.

This is true but doesn't published ******* porn, either commercial or otherwise, cater to the fantasy of adopting opposite sex gender and sexual roles?

[Badtranny]

What an awesome thread. I have to admit after reading through it, that I'm beginning to feel some sympathy for the CD that feels an attraction to men only when he is "dressed". It seems bizarre on the face of it, but maybe the clothes are serving as a kind of license to get your freak on. I definitely have compassion for the closet queens who use being "bi" as a get out free card because I used to do the same thing. Before I finally accepted that I was strictly dickly, it was soooo much easier for me to believe I was bisexual. Even though I was clearly not aroused by women. I can only imagine how difficult self discovery would have been, if I had been cross dressing as well. Wow.

[busker]

I suppose a theory might be that fear of homophobic repercussion can cause some men to stay in denial over a real attraction to other males, but then why would they have difficulty with this yet embrace the CDing, which is equally stigmatized in our society?


par·si·mo·ny (pärs-mn)n.

2. Adoption of the simplest assumption in the formulation of a theory or in the interpretation of data, especially in accordance with the rule of Ockham's razor.


I don't claim to understand all of this, but I wonder if there is all this attempt to explain and rationalize behaviour by Blanchard and others --because it's "fun" to put all these what ifs, etc into consideration, but don't you think that the "simplest" explanation--which you have already listed--e.g. denial--is the real root of the CD/BI experience? Isn't it more likely to be homosexual denial as the root explanation. Why try to run around fitting pieces in here and there and then the "theory" only fits part and not the rest. That isn't scientific in any sense and I realize that when dealing with humans one can't necessarily quantify all the varieties of behaviour. But, if it is a working theory, it should fit most or more of the subjects than it seems to fit. How can it be an explanation when it applies to only 1 or 2 percent? Since there is a great frequency of the"fantasy" wouldn't it be easier to say that it is denial and then if something in research turns up to put that notion on its head, then call it something else. At the moment, as I read this, it seems to my only somewhat informed brain that rationlized denial is the problem, and that the CDers in questions are non-accepting homosexuals. Even with humans one needs to take to most basic, logical explanation for the behaviour.
just a thought.
remember my jammies aren't flame retardant

[ReineD]

OK, I shouldn't have said "theory". I should have said "question". lol

So if it is simple denial, then why would someone not want to admit they are gay, when they willingly embrace the wearing of women's clothes? How can the barriers break down for one and not the other? Don't forget, we are referring to the self-identified, hetero CDers (who identify as male, who like being male, and who like women), but who feel their sexual orientations change when they dress and only when they dress. We're not talking about TSs or CDers who straddle the line between CD & TS.

[GBJoker]

Thread = tl;dr

OP: I am also bisexuality and after being here... five-ish? months, it just simply isn't a factor here on this site. You're accepted because you're a transgender and/or dating/married/whatever to a transgendered. At least, this is what I have personally seen. I don't know what every one else sees.

[Sammy777]

1. I certainly don't consider my dualness to be a multiple-personality manifestation.
Far from being "discrete" personas, there is tremendous overlap between one's guy and girl modes.
Multiple personality situations are essentially psychotic; the person doesn't realize that the other personas exist while in one.
I never forget or disregard my entire life history, preferences, interests, and so forth while exploring and exercising my advanced and manifested feminine side, and I don't think others do, either.

I have to disagree, from a purely clinical, academic and/or psychological point of view anyway.
Many CD'ing traits [this one in particular] can be looked upon as symptoms of Multiple Personality Disorder.

Definition (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/multiple+personality+disorder): Multiple personality disorder [MPD] or Dissociative Identity Disorder [DID]
is a mental disturbance classified as one of the dissociative disorders. MPD or DID is defined as a condition in which "two or more distinct identities or personality states" alternate in controlling the patient's consciousness and behavior.

As with ANY medical condition, not all symptoms need be present to be diagnosed as such.

Again, I am in no way saying any or all CD'ers suffer from any kind of disorder in general. All I am saying is that if you were to remove the want/need aspect of dressing and look at all the other factors then there is a possibility that people could misconstrue all these other traits as being symptoms of the disorder above.



3. Viewing male-male sex as homosexual by definition flies in the face of the experiences of many TG folk.
Male/female is anatomy; man/woman is a social construct of expectations and behaviors.
I don't know how anyone with an open mind could watch gay porn and ******* porn without noticing the difference
For obvious reasons I'm omitting MtF and FtM TS's from the equations below.
I tried to skirt this one in my last post by using "bisexual encounter".

But why should it? Let's just call a duck a duck here for a minute shall we.
Why should sex between two people that are both anatomically male and identify as male be called anything other then homosexual sex?

I don't care if you wear a dress or a chicken suit, once the clothes [and the fantasy] are removed you are left with - drum roll - homosexual sex plain and simple.
Just because one of the participants wishes to portray themselves [being seen/treated] as a woman does not change or dismiss the act as anything but what I just described above.

Who gets to be Man or Woman is NOT decided by who does the dishes or takes out the trash.
The only "social construct" is how men and women are expected to act and behave within a set society.
You are trying to completely dismiss the inherent qualities [and differences] that make up what it is to be a Man/Male and Woman/Female.

Man = Male, Woman = Female is an innate feeling, ones sense of self, something that while connected to "anatomy" is much, much more deeper then that. While it is more then "JUST" anatomy, anatomy does play a crucial role in what it is to be Male or Female as well.

Rule #34 (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Rule%2034) - If it exists there IS porn of it.
You are forgetting that the porn industry is there solely to cater to specific demographic and that "She-Males" are just another viewer demographic and another way for them to make money.
Although the exception to this rule is that "she-males" are for the most part the sole construct of the porn industry and a quite rare "in the wild".

[Sammy777]

Sammy, I don't think psychosis is really right. At the surface it sounds similar, but when someone is psychotic they usually can't "switch back to normal." The disconnect with reality is so great that they cannot function in society. It seems like a lot of CDs that DL this are still functioning and are able to switch back and forth at will to more appropriate thought processes.

Also, there HAS been a lot of research on changing personality ONLINE. I mean look where we are and posting.
Many people are not who they portray online...perhaps, a CD would take that to a whole different level?

True, It is not correct once you get past the surface, but an interesting thought none the less.
The one that better encompasses the idea and explanations of my hypothesis [on a
Psychological/Clinical level] behind such behaviors was originally omitted.
Acastina actually mentioned it and gave me opportunity to delve into it a bit above.

I guess "changing personality [while] online" is what is implied above.
I per pose an analogy of the phrase: A drunken mans words are a sober mans thoughts.
That while, yes, some people do feel free to more openly express themselves in anonymous online environments such as this forum. It seems to me that many of the desires portrayed here, especially this one, are more so then not expressions of their true selves and not merely some fictitious "online only" personality.


I also don't know how Blanchard would have defined the patients who reported a sexual attraction to males and females before transition. Would he have classified them as homosexual, and therefore not paraphilic?
At any rate I also do not see in this particular article any mention of bisexuality.
In his work here:
The concept of autogynephilia and the typology of male gender dysphoria.
Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease, Vol 177(10), Oct 1989 (http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1990-07710-001)

Blanchard uses 4 groups: 1 homosexual [Androphilic] and 3 nonhomosexual [Autogynephilic].
The nonhomosexual groups were heterosexual, bisexual, and analloerotic

But then later takes those 3 groups and combines them all into nonhomosexual.

My guess for this is that he was looking to separate all "other" TS' from his "Core" "True" TS's who suffer from Androphilia

[Carol123]

well I love being as fem as possible and I love being a woman with a man

[Patsy]

I understand where you're coming from Paulette, and no you're not odd. Good luck. I'm pretty much bi-sexual myself. I hope you meet that special friend.

[Sammy777]

well I love being as fem as possible and I love being a woman with a man

Care to explain that a bit further? http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt230/samanthaM76/open%20album/banghead.gif

[KiwiHeather]

I wonder if with the willingness to try things which were taboo years ago (expanding our sexual horrisons) we are inadvertantly confusing desires and fantasies. In years long gone by anal play used to be completely taboo and was seen as a purely homosexual act, but now it has become more accepted by some couples as normal and in some cases it is the male partner on the recieving end. It isnt a homosexual act when a wife dominates a husband in the bed room and perhaps the "bi curious" amoung us are substituting another more receptive ficticious male for the role they would rather have their SO take, because of their SO's and their inhibitions to discuss what could be an undesireable in their eyes addition to the bedroom play. Perhaps we are not bi curious at all but rather feeling that we couldnt ever experiment with one we love and so create a fiction in our minds that this other person would be acceptable. Perhaps being dressed makes us less inhibitted to things we would otherwise find hard to consider. we are for a while freed from our usual constarints and free to think outside the box we stepped out of.

Or I could be completely wrong, but food for thought.

H

[NCAmazon]

II tried to skirt this one in my last post by using "bisexual encounter".

But why should it? Let's just call a duck a duck here for a minute shall we.
Why should sex between two people that are both anatomically male and identify as male be called anything other then homosexual sex?

I don't care if you wear a dress or a chicken suit, once the clothes [and the fantasy] are removed you are left with - drum roll - homosexual sex plain and simple.
Just because one of the participants wishes to portray themselves [being seen/treated] as a woman does not change or dismiss the act as anything but what I just described above.




Well you can't really call it a Personality Disorder if one is falling into a character while dressed in girl mode. It could be a character they are playing that is the way I act. Do we say actors have a personality disorder when they are playing their role? I don't think so.

You are right that anatomically sex between two males is physically homosexual sex. But if you look at someones preference. They could still be hetero.

Take a man who engages in a activity with a TS and doesn't know the TS has male parts. That is a homosexual encouter but the man may still be hetero.

A CD who falls into a mode believign she is a female has an encouter with a male, that is a homosexual encounter, but the CD could be in a autogynophilia state fantasizing about being the woman during the encounter, and could still have a preference for being hetero.

Mental state and physical definition will often contradict.

[Badtranny]

So if it is simple denial, then why would someone not want to admit they are gay, when they willingly embrace the wearing of women's clothes? How can the barriers break down for one and not the other? Don't forget, we are referring to the self-identified, hetero CDers (who identify as male, who like being male, and who like women), but who feel their sexual orientations change when they dress and only when they dress.

Well I think you answered it RD, they IDENTIFY as male and say over and over that they like women, some have even regaled us with stories of gleeful violent retribution for a smack on the bottom from some poor admiring guy. These "straight" CD's have indeed somehow accepted that they have a "fem" side but apparently only under the condition that they remain faithfully attracted to the Vag. I can speak to the power of denial and I can totally understand that the "fem side" is an attractive loophole.

You know that for me the most important lesson that I've learned from this journey is to be honest with yourself and be proud of who you are. I believe denial is a significant barrier to self acceptance and being allowed to be situationally gay, only serves to prolong and perhaps deepen the denial. A man in deep denial is a creepy man and that creepiness will manifest itself in other areas of his life. This I know to be true.

For me, being bisexual was just a way to continue denying my real desire. Being bi is freaky and fun, being gay was a total surrender of whatever masculinity I had. A masculine CD can live with wearing a dress, as long as he can kick your ass because he's still a man. Maybe better than a man, but to admit an attraction to other men is something he cannot do. Dressing like a woman is bad enough, but there's nothing worse than being something less than a man. This is where the denial is rooted.

[busker]

OK, I shouldn't have said "theory". I should have said "question". lol

So if it is simple denial, then why would someone not want to admit they are gay, .

There is an article in today's NYTIMES
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/05/fashion/open-marriages-new-15-minutes.html?adxnnl=1&hpw=&adxnnlx=1328380118-2fgQLaEIQOFmQj/NRS2p1A
February 3, 2012
Open Marriage’s New 15 Minutes
By ALEX WILLIAMS
re-opening the old can of worms about NEWT's desire to have an "open marriage" and his wife saying NO. It was a popular idea in the 70's that lost gas pretty quickly, but with the advent of the internet, it has apparently reared its head again in several forms, some orgs even run by women. But to read the NEW description, it seems to nothing more than the old description which was just an excuse to fool around and have lots of sex with everyone and call it open marriage. Basically what it seems to me is the need for "an out", "a rationalization", a denial that perhaps the marriage isn't all what it is cracked up to be and rather than loose a bundle through divorce, everyone just decides to screw around. It is what we all, at one time or another, look for--an excuse for the things we do or who we are, that we aren't willing to admit to.
just an opinion

[Acastina]

I have to disagree, from a purely clinical, academic and/or psychological point of view anyway.
Many CD'ing traits [this one in particular] can be looked upon as symptoms of Multiple Personality Disorder.

Definition (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/multiple+personality+disorder): Multiple personality disorder [MPD] or Dissociative Identity Disorder [DID]
is a mental disturbance classified as one of the dissociative disorders. MPD or DID is defined as a condition in which "two or more distinct identities or personality states" alternate in controlling the patient's consciousness and behavior.

As with ANY medical condition, not all symptoms need be present to be diagnosed as such.

Again, I am in no way saying any or all CD'ers suffer from any kind of disorder in general. All I am saying is that if you were to remove the want/need aspect of dressing and look at all the other factors then there is a possibility that people could misconstrue all these other traits as being symptoms of the disorder above.

With respect, this assertion requires an extended response. It is a superficial understanding of DID/MPD, and the quoted definition doesn't begin to describe the disorder. I think it's important to know the difference because dismissing the kind of dual nature that TG/CD folk experience as a multiple personality disorder is all too tempting. From WebMD:

"Most of us have experienced mild dissociation, which is like daydreaming or getting lost in the moment while working on a project. However, dissociative identity disorder is a severe form of dissociation, a mental process, which produces a lack of connection in a person's thoughts, memories, feelings, actions, or sense of identity. Dissociative identity disorder is thought to stem from trauma experienced by the person with the disorder. The dissociative aspect is thought to be a coping mechanism -- the person literally dissociates himself from a situation or experience that's too violent, traumatic, or painful to assimilate with his conscious self.

Is Dissociative Identity Disorder Real?

You may wonder if dissociative identity disorder is real. After all, understanding the development of multiple personalities is difficult, even for highly trained experts. But dissociative identity disorder does exist. It is the most severe and chronic manifestation of the dissociative disorders that cause multiple personalities.

It is now acknowledged that these dissociated states are not fully-mature personalities, but rather they represent a disjointed sense of identity. With the amnesia typically associated with dissociative identity disorder, different identity states remember different aspects of autobiographical information. There is usually a host personality within the individual, who identifies with the person's real name. Ironically, the host personality is usually unaware of the presence of other personalities.

What Roles Do the Different Personalities Play?

The distinct personalities may serve diverse roles in helping the individual cope with life's dilemmas. For instance, there's an average of two to four personalities present when the patient is initially diagnosed. Then there's an average of 13 to 15 personalities that can become known over the course of treatment. While unusual, there have been instances of dissociative identity disorder with more than 100 personalities. Environmental triggers or life events cause a sudden shift from one alter or personality to another."

There are several pages on the topic in WebMD for those who want to know more. My original comment was "Multiple personality situations are essentially psychotic; the person doesn't realize that the other personas exist while in one. I never forget or disregard my entire life history, preferences, interests, and so forth while exploring and exercising my advanced and manifested feminine side, and I don't think others do, either." I can't speak for the "others", of course, but that opinion certainly squares with the majority of comments on this site, which nearly constantly reference a full conscious understanding of their "normal" lives and the phenomenon of their CD. In fact, expressing one's feminine side through CD appears to be just that, a separate facet on the same personality jewel.


Let's just call a duck a duck here for a minute shall we.
Why should sex between two people that are both anatomically male and identify as male be called anything other then homosexual sex?

I don't care if you wear a dress or a chicken suit, once the clothes [and the fantasy] are removed you are left with - drum roll - homosexual sex plain and simple.
Just because one of the participants wishes to portray themselves [being seen/treated] as a woman does not change or dismiss the act as anything but what I just described above.

Who gets to be Man or Woman is NOT decided by who does the dishes or takes out the trash.
The only "social construct" is how men and women are expected to act and behave within a set society.
You are trying to completely dismiss the inherent qualities [and differences] that make up what it is to be a Man/Male and Woman/Female.

Man = Male, Woman = Female is an innate feeling, ones sense of self, something that while connected to "anatomy" is much, much more deeper then that. While it is more then "JUST" anatomy, anatomy does play a crucial role in what it is to be Male or Female as well.

I'm not sure I even understand what's being said here. "Man = Male, Woman = Female" is the anatomy-is-destiny formulation, and it begs the question. My whole point was that male/female is anatomical and biological, while man/woman is social and cultural. In fact, the last quoted sentence doesn't go far enough. The role of anatomy in male/female is not only crucial, it's total, with the exception of intersex phenomena.

The recent thread about third-gender Samoans, and the Native American Two-spirit traditions, illustrate my point exactly. Those cultures disregarded the anatomical binary when male children exhibited TG behaviors early, and those children were assigned to and lived out social roles typical of females.

If one proceeds from anatomy alone, of course two males having sex is homosexual. But if one of the males identifies as male and plays a man's role exclusively, while the other male identifies as woman (even if temporarily with a full, non-psychotic realization that s/he is anatomically male) and plays a typical heterosexual woman's role (to the extent possible), we have something that is more in the nature of ordinary heterosexual mating than two gay men (males) who identify as and relate sexually to other males (men). It's the difference between the anatomical binary and the social-role binary (which of course has many shades of variance). An illustration of this would be the question whether one is perceived as a woman (perhaps large, broad-shouldered, Adam's apple-d, and husky voiced, etc.) or a man in a dress. The parenthetical characteristics are anatomical, but the perception is social.

Plenty of observers have noted that man/TG sex looks a lot more like straight sex than it does like gay sex, and that requires separating anatomy from social behavior.


If it exists there IS porn of it.
You are forgetting that the porn industry is there solely to cater to specific demographic and that "She-Males" are just another viewer demographic and another way for them to make money.
Although the exception to this rule is that "she-males" are for the most part the sole construct of the porn industry and a quite rare "in the wild".

This is internally contradictory. The logic: If there is porn of it, it exists; but ******* porn is purely a creation of the porn industry; and they don't really exist outside of the industry. Say again? The existence of the non-op TS or anatomically homosexual CD preceded their exploitation by pornographers, or your first statement is false. If the first statement is true, your third statement is necessarily false; the industry didn't create it out of pure fantasy, but rather made it part of the categories catalog precisely because it does exist "in the wild" and appeals to some viewers. And one doesn't have to make an extended study online :o to note that the anatomical maleness of the "woman" partner runs the gamut in terms of functionality and what the couple or group does with the anatomy.

The more potent and active she is, the more it looks like gay sex in a costume. The less potent and more passive she is, the more it looks like straight sex.

And that was my point.

[StarrOfDelite]

To Sammy777: No. 1. I don't think transgenders who look like porn star ******** are any more rare "in the wild" than genetic girl pornstars with breast implants, liposuction waists, brazilian buttlift glutes, and ten thousand dollars of dental caps and whitening, if you compare the ratio of ******** to ordinary crossdressers, and Pornstar genetic girls to ordinary girls, I suspect the ratios aren't all that different. No. 2. I personally know two transgenders who have had implants and some other cosmetic surgery, and who are not involved in the porn industry. No. 3. Not all transgender porn stars are surgically enhanced ********. There are very many who happen to be lean, flat chested individuals with wigs or long natural hair, makeup, and hairless bodies, and the porn in which they are involved looks just as much like male/female sex as the stuff involving enhanced ********. No. 4. What happens to the ******** when they get old and heavy in your universe? I don't know if it's still true, but it used to be said that many of the stars of ******* porn only worked in the industry long enough to pay for their surgeries, and then they left it to pursue private life, or in your parlance, "in the wild."

[NCAmazon]

Well I think you answered it RD, they IDENTIFY as male and say over and over that they like women, some have even regaled us with stories of gleeful violent retribution for a smack on the bottom from some poor admiring guy. These "straight" CD's have indeed somehow accepted that they have a "fem" side but apparently only under the condition that they remain faithfully attracted to the Vag. I can speak to the power of denial and I can totally understand that the "fem side" is an attractive loophole.

You know that for me the most important lesson that I've learned from this journey is to be honest with yourself and be proud of who you are. I believe denial is a significant barrier to self acceptance and being allowed to be situationally gay, only serves to prolong and perhaps deepen the denial. A man in deep denial is a creepy man and that creepiness will manifest itself in other areas of his life. This I know to be true.

For me, being bisexual was just a way to continue denying my real desire. Being bi is freaky and fun, being gay was a total surrender of whatever masculinity I had. A masculine CD can live with wearing a dress, as long as he can kick your ass because he's still a man. Maybe better than a man, but to admit an attraction to other men is something he cannot do. Dressing like a woman is bad enough, but there's nothing worse than being something less than a man. This is where the denial is rooted.

Ok can someone answer this for me. If a CD enjoys the feeling of being made to feel like a woman and has a man do that for her, but she is not really attracted or turned on to the man in a sexual way that is Autogynophilia. Is there any issue with that if the man is ok with it? Is that bisexual? She is attracted to the feeling of being made a woman.

So when someone says its not about the clothes, then why even dress, why don't they have a full beard and and mens dress pants and feel fem. It is about the clothes in my opinion.

[Acastina]

To Sammy777: No. 1. I don't think transgenders who look like porn star ******** are any more rare "in the wild" than genetic girl pornstars with breast implants, liposuction waists, brazilian buttlift glutes, and ten thousand dollars of dental caps and whitening, if you compare the ratio of ******** to ordinary crossdressers, and Pornstar genetic girls to ordinary girls, I suspect the ratios aren't all that different. No. 2. I personally know two transgenders who have had implants and some other cosmetic surgery, and who are not involved in the porn industry. No. 3. Not all transgender porn stars are surgically enhanced ********. There are very many who happen to be lean, flat chested individuals with wigs or long natural hair, makeup, and hairless bodies, and the porn in which they are involved looks just as much like male/female sex as the stuff involving enhanced ********. No. 4. What happens to the ******** when they get old and heavy in your universe? I don't know if it's still true, but it used to be said that many of the stars of ******* porn only worked in the industry long enough to pay for their surgeries, and then they left it to pursue private life, or in your parlance, "in the wild."

Excellent points all.

[kelsey52]

Oh boy this thread has really got deep, if you want to try a guy then just do it, if you dont like it then stop, if your bi great, if not great. If you are really curious then try it if you can or it will haunt you forever am I or am I not humm. I have told my wife I had been with guys before we were married and well Iam still here got it out of the way and prepared to move on if she did not like it. I will tell you this, sometimes so goes nuts during our time in the bed room and when its her time to play the man.She gets into that horny angry guy mode and pounds me like a street walker. " NOW YOU KNOW HOW IT FEEL, TAKE LIKE A MAN, STOP COMPLANING". I love her so much.

[Robyn7778]

It's a shame no one here ever takes time to consider this issue. ;-) But seriously, I have devoted a good amount of time in my life considering my sexuality and its evolution. I started my life straight. I had no feelings for a man whatsoever. And if I had, I'm certain I would have been scared straight by the ridicule heaped on kids that show even a hint of being "gay." It was the ultimate insult growing up! Then I went to a college with a very high gay population. And I learned that there is nothing wrong with a person who identifies as gay and they certainly pose no threat to me whatsoever. Still, I was straight. I moved back to NYC and began a career in a creative industry. I have worked with and become friends with some incredibly talented and wonderful people in the LGBT community. In my late 20's I discovered an infatuation with crossdressing at first an admirer and eventually crossdressing myself, which led me to consider whether this made me "bi-curious." I've dressed part time, on of for a number of years now. I love it. It's exhilarating and liberating. And when I do, I do feel the desire to be treated like a woman by a man. And I have acted on it. So, I have come to terms with the fact that I am out and out bi-sexual. I enjoy relations with men and women equally, depending on the person and the situation. So in the end, I guess what I am is sexual. In the end, it matters little what others think or how others label you. It matters only how you feel about yourself.

[Acastina]

It's a shame no one here ever takes time to consider this issue. ;-) But seriously, I have devoted a good amount of time in my life considering my sexuality and its evolution. ...
I've dressed part time, on of for a number of years now. I love it. It's exhilarating and liberating. And when I do, I do feel the desire to be treated like a woman by a man. And I have acted on it. So, I have come to terms with the fact that I am out and out bi-sexual. I enjoy relations with men and women equally, depending on the person and the situation. So in the end, I guess what I am is sexual. In the end, it matters little what others think or how others label you. It matters only how you feel about yourself.

You hit the key word in your second-to-last sentence: label. That's what most of this long, interesting thread has been about. Some begin with anatomy and draw simplistic conclusions from that alone. Others begin with brain gender and its myriad manifestations, and arrive at different conclusions. Your experience is hardly atypical, other than adult-onset CD. Blanchard's TS work implies that bi-CDs have no real interest in their male partners as people and friends, solely and selfishly relating to the penis as if it wasn't connected to a sentient human being. Many of us know that's nonsense, because we've had contrary experience and know that we weren't the only ones. Viewing it as a type of multiple-personality disorder ignores the severe clinical definition of that condition, as well as the fact that we're perfectly conscious of our male manifestations while working the other side of the aisle. Saying that all male-male contact is homosexual, and that's it, disregards the striking similarities between straight porn (the only chance most of us have to observe sexuality fully expressed by others) and TS/TG/CD porn, and the dissimilarities between those genres and gay porn. Overlap, yes, but dissimilar.

Like you, I know, like, admire, and enjoy a number of gay people, but, much as I may love some of them, I also know that that's not who I am. I certainly could have explored being gay, but I was never the least motivated in boy mode to go down that road. In girl mode, it's been, "Why not", and acting on it came naturally. That's the difference. It's not that we're gay-but-in-denial-and-dressing-up-makes-it-OK. It's that what we are is something different from gay man. Labels again...

[ReineD]

Ok can someone answer this for me. If a CD enjoys the feeling of being made to feel like a woman and has a man do that for her, but she is not really attracted or turned on to the man in a sexual way that is Autogynophilia. Is there any issue with that if the man is ok with it? Is that bisexual? She is attracted to the feeling of being made a woman.

If she's into if for the fantasy, and he's OK with that because he's into it for the sex and his own fantasy, then it's not hetero sex. They both know they are two males who are having sex. Is she bisexual? Bisexuality is defined as follows: physical or romantic attraction to both men and women. If she's not attracted to him when she's in guy mode, and her arousal in femme mode stems from the thought of herself as a woman vs. an attraction to him, then in my opinion and according to our current understanding of bisexuality, she is not. Is he bisexual? That all depends on whether or not he is also attracted to women. If he is not, then it is my opinion that he is gay.


Blanchard's TS work implies that bi-CDs have no real interest in their male partners as people and friends, solely and selfishly relating to the penis as if it wasn't connected to a sentient human being. Many of us know that's nonsense, because we've had contrary experience and know that we weren't the only ones.

I agree, there are bi CDs for whom sex with a man is not related to AGP. But there are others for whom it is.

Wouldn't the bi CDs also be attracted to men while also in male mode, after a period of coming to terms with it all? And is there a possibility that if the CD is AGP, then the fantasy serves its purpose until the act is consummated, at which point the experience becomes a turn-off?

We've had thread after thread of members who say they are attracted to men while dressed. But most don't say whether they've physically acted on it. A few have said they had and realized that sex with another man wasn't for them. A few others have said they enjoyed it but they also acknowledge they are either gay or bi.



Like you, I know, like, admire, and enjoy a number of gay people, but, much as I may love some of them, I also know that that's not who I am. I certainly could have explored being gay, but I was never the least motivated in boy mode to go down that road. In girl mode, it's been, "Why not", and acting on it came naturally. That's the difference. It's not that we're gay but in denial and dressing up makes it OK. It's that what we are is something different from gay man. Labels again...

Yes, ... labels. We just don't have enough words to describe the myriad variations of gender combined with sexuality that is now coming to the forefront of human knowledge.

[latanya]

ditto me to my feeling is that im hetero both ways when im male im only intereseted in women but i feel that if i want to expereince being female being with other cd/tg or gay guys just wont fulfill that need. i would want the attention of hetero males and be excepted not as a cross dresser but as female. now how far i would go or capable to put my male perceptions aside i dont know!

[Shananigans]

1. I certainly don't consider my dualness to be a multiple-personality manifestation. Far from being "discrete" personas, there is tremendous overlap between one's guy and girl modes. Multiple personality situations are essentially psychotic; the person doesn't realize that the other personas exist while in one. I never forget or disregard my entire life history, preferences, interests, and so forth while exploring and exercising my advanced and manifested feminine side, and I don't think others do, either.

It is true that there is a personality disorder that manifests in different personality types that are unaware of each other...I would call this Dissociative Identity Disorder, but it was called multiple personality disorders. However, there are plenty of personality disorders that involve levels of disassociation that are not DID. In most personality disorders, there is a manifestation in dysfunctional coping behaviors. These disordered coping behaviors may manifest with identity disorders (which, may include gender identity disorder). We like to look at ourselves as whole individuals. So, when someone compartmentalizes themselves into distinct personalities, we would say that this is an abnormal behavior pattern. The causes of these behavior patterns may be due to many factors. But, what we generally would like to see is a patient that begins to view themselves as a whole and takes responsibility for their behaviors and actions...instead of compartmentalizing them. Does that make sense? A key thing to remember is that someone with a personality disorder won't see their behavior as maladaptive. Why? Because, he/she has integrated this as part of his/her personality. So, you will see a lot of blame. "People just don't understand me...no one listens...no one cares." This often affects personal relationships. It is affective therapy you can get a patient to see themselves as a whole person, instead of compartmentalizing aspects of their personality that they have evolved defense mechanisms for coping.

It may very well mean that these people have some kind of gender identity disorder, but the way in which they are coping by compartmentalizing is considered maladaptive behaviors by society. And, that may not be considered "fair," but this is how most people view themselves...as one whole individual that is constantly responsible for their behaviors and actions. Therefore, I would say that saying you are bisexual while en femme (or, acquiring other characteristics while only en femme) is an ineffective coping behavior as evidenced by the lack of ownership to the behaviors while "en homme."


2. Dr. Blanchard's autogynephilia theory is just that, a theory, not a proven fact. It is but one way of attempting to describe transgendered behaviors, and the sexual arousal patterns of some TG/CDs in particular. Like all such informed theories, it has substantial conceptual appeal, but exceptions abound, which certainly calls into question both its validity and its general applicability. IMHO, quoting at length from 20-year-old clinical writings adds little to this conversation. Blanchard's theory has plenty of critics, and AGP doesn't really address bisexuality (the topic here) in any meaningful way. My personal take on AGP, dating back to its first entry into TG science, is questioning whether it states a causal relationship to TG/CD sexual-arousal patterns or simply compiles and describes behaviors. In other words, is AGP a pathology that distorts TG/CD sexuality from some kind of posited "normal", or is it merely a conceptual description of common TG/CD sexual behaviors? If the latter, it's useful as a tool for understanding and comparing; if the former, welcome to a debate that has raged out in the open for decades without reaching a consensus. As a way of explaining the causes of TG behaviors, it's inadequate psychobabble compared to real possibilities like brain-wiring anomalies in utero, many of which have been verified in lab-rat experiments that tinker with prenatal hormone doses to produce male rats with female sexual behaviors and vice-versa. I place it somewhere above Freud's classic, discredited strong-mother/weak-father nurture theories but below real, verifiable agents of causation, whatever they may someday be found to be.

Blanchard is often brought up on this site, and I had this feeling that no one actually had READ the paper. So, I saw it as a relevant read if we were going to continue to discuss it. I also would not call it a "theory." Gravity is a theory. I'd call it more of a hypothesis that psychologists today are still debating as possibly very relevant to TG issues. This is why it's still mentioned in scientific literature and being tested 20 years later. Focus has now turned to the female version of the phenomenon and there are overwhelming scientific papers available to you on this subject.


3. Viewing male-male sex as homosexual by definition flies in the face of the experiences of many TG folk. Male/female is anatomy; man/woman is a social construct of expectations and behaviors. I don't know how anyone with an open mind could watch gay porn and ******* porn without noticing the difference and realizing that the TG "women" in the latter may be anatomically male but appear to approach sex from a female perspective, albeit with all kinds of variations that are more of commercial value to the industry than they are indicative of typical TG sexuality (e.g., BDSM, ******* topping male, and so forth). ******* porn looks a lot more like straight porn than it does like gay porn, and it's not just the clothes. As Shannon's intolerant gay friend said, he doesn't like "men" acting like "women"; he wants a man, and that's homosexual. Male with TG/CD male is something different.

I can't even comment on "*******" behavior because I don't watch this porn.

[jaglover]

This extraordinary thread is somewhat over my head - especially since I don't understand quite all the abbreviations. It does make me feel like a very dull old Hector indeed. If and when I get my chance to go out in the world en femme I'd love for people to mistake me for a woman - but any kind of 'attention' from an actual man would put me off big-time and I'd probably run (well, totter) straight back to the closet. To the extent that I fantasise about sexual situations in the CD department, I dream of being with a girl who for some strange reason gets turned on by being with a man who likes to dress as a woman.

[whowhatwhen]

well I love being as fem as possible and I love being a woman with a man

Care to explain that a bit further? http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt230/samanthaM76/open%20album/banghead.gif

Maybe not, but you can pick at my brain if you'd like but it might be a bit different.

It kind of makes sense, at least for me, CD would be to get as far away from my male self as I can.
As confusing as that sounds, they are not seperate entities but more a set of rules based in denial, fear, ect.. of what I'm allowed to do.

It's likely that I'd have no problem boning with guys as a guy, but even if I come to accept that; I'd still like to be with a guy
while being as close to female as superficially possible. Why? I don't know.
Clothing isn't the license here, it's however I feel inside at the time.

For example, I still have a long way to go in terms of work on my body and gaining enough to CD properly but I can still feel jealous of girls
being intimate with guys. Around that state men become more physically attractive which, possible due to denial, is so much more rare every other time.

I can't watch gay xxx either unless there is a woman involved, even in the room doing nothing, because most of the time male features are
harder to hit a note with me. Harder, but not impossible as there have been some guys where I think daaaaaaaamn.....

I don't mind explaining anything further, who knows, maybe it'll help me understand myself more.

[StarrOfDelite]

It's a shame no one here ever takes time to consider this issue. ;-) But seriously, I have devoted a good amount of time in my life considering my sexuality and its evolution. I started my life straight. I had no feelings for a man whatsoever. And if I had, I'm certain I would have been scared straight by the ridicule heaped on kids that show even a hint of being "gay." It was the ultimate insult growing up! Then I went to a college with a very high gay population. And I learned that there is nothing wrong with a person who identifies as gay and they certainly pose no threat to me whatsoever. Still, I was straight. I moved back to NYC and began a career in a creative industry. I have worked with and become friends with some incredibly talented and wonderful people in the LGBT community. In my late 20's I discovered an infatuation with crossdressing at first an admirer and eventually crossdressing myself, which led me to consider whether this made me "bi-curious." I've dressed part time, on of for a number of years now. I love it. It's exhilarating and liberating. And when I do, I do feel the desire to be treated like a woman by a man. And I have acted on it. So, I have come to terms with the fact that I am out and out bi-sexual. I enjoy relations with men and women equally, depending on the person and the situation. So in the end, I guess what I am is sexual. In the end, it matters little what others think or how others label you. It matters only how you feel about yourself.

Had to say that I was really interested in your story about how you transitioned from straight male to bi-sexual crossdressers, because it is very similar to my personal history. I was in my mid 40's when the light came on for me and I began the journey, and I must admit I'm envious you had more of your life ahead when it happened for you.

[laura.lapinski]

I think I am the same. I think, if I was single and had the opportunity, I would date a guy if I was dressed as a girl, or I would date another CD/Trans if I am dressed as a guy (or girl), and I would date women if I am dressed as a guy. Don't ask me why, but I don't think I could do anything with a guy if I am dressed as a guy. So far, I've only been with women, but these are my thoughts and fantasies. Call me Bi, I won't get mad. :).

Laura

[Davena Doll]

For me, I wanted to have sex with a guy, so I got all dolled up a wig hells the works................it was fun.

[Sophie_C]

I don't believe I have posted this before, but I seriously suggest reading this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Billion-Wicked-Thoughts-Largest-Experiment/dp/0525952098

It's relatively new and basically taking Kinsey to the next level, and is beginning to be referenced to, as fact.

And, it is based on an academic study of sexuality in relationship to neuropsychology, which has not yet been done before. It explains EVERYTHING we're talking about here, in terms of key points, internal body maps, and various other things which can be described as essentially systems that exist in our minds.

It is too much to explain here, but if you're hesitant to buy an e-book, this Google Talk covers it on a high level:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-A8GvUehq4

I don't generally promote something as being "pretty much right" but this is really good and goes along with what I thought all along (but is much more thorough). In comparison, Blanchard's work is like inventing the wheel versus creating a Ferrari.

Watch or read it if you like.

[Robyn7778]

For the record, because I'm not sure if it was clear from my initial reply based on some of the very thoughtful and appreciated responses here as well as messages to me too, I have been, selectively, with guys when in boy mode - not just when en femme. Though, the incidence is higher when in girl mode. Make what you will of that, I've simply come to accept it. It's about facing your self-doubts and not letting labels dictate what makes you happy.

[Josie M]

Hi Paulette. I am as well. I'd say that I am bigender and bisexual at the same time. That is, I'm interested in dating men while en femme and women while en homme. I don't know if there are many bisexual crossdressers, but we are here and there. I certainly accept you and I think the ladies here are very supportive of all the diversity that the forum has to offer. Thank you for speaking out! - Julie

Getting in this very late I realize, but I've heard of the above referred to as "Hetero-Gender"

[Donniesr]

I would say that you are one of the few NORMAL ones here. Most of us are bi sexual or bi curious in one way or another. That is society's say so.. We are all born naked, so I doubt that God cares much what clothes we wear.
Just be who and what you want to be, and never mind the rest.

[lost alice]

i know I'm very laid to the conversation and i do admit that no matter how much i would love to dress up more i will say I'm am bi and i think it helps in making me want to be beautiful for some one I'm with be it friends or date

[seanmuscle]

A man and a CD can have very successful and rewarding relationships. To me if you look, act and present yourself as a girl then you are a girl.

[cindi cinnamon]

To answer the original poster: NO, you're not an "oddball" here. I also am bisexual, with a strong predisposition to be in "intimate" touch with my feminine side. My sexual experiences started very early, and they were ALL with boys. I wasn't intimate with a female until I was 21 years of age, and I enjoyed it thoroughly. I've been married now for 36 years and wouldn't change that for anything. I love my wife deeply...... But, I still fantasize about being with the "Right Guy". I've actually acted out on the "URGE" a few times while I've been married (with the full knowledge, understanding and consent of my wife)..... I'm a lucky guy !!!! I just remember to be careful.... VERY, VERY, CAREFUL, INDEED..... I don't want to bring anything home that would cause harm to the love of my life.

[Leeiah]

never been with a guy, but I am pretty sure I am bi. When i am dressed I seem to attract nothing but striaght men who are fascinated in the ideal of a CD apparently they say they aren't gay and being attracted to me is normal etc. Then they beg to do stuff with me, it leaves me feeling confused but I think they are expecting me to pounce on them so to speak which I never do. Never enjoyed the thought of turning anyone to something else and I know if I did do it with them and rock there world, they would be different from that point on..

But everytime I am dressed, I do crave a man.

[Daliah]

I considered myself straight. I am not attracted to men at all. However, I am attracted to many CDs including some who post here (sorry I am not naming names). I am in closet but given a chance I would love to hang out with other CDs and even engaging sexually. Does that make me bi-curious? Whatever I am I can accept myself for who I am.

Daliah

[StacyCanada]

This is a question I myself struggled with for years. All of my first sexual experiences were with women and I enjoyed it thoroughly. However, I did begin to fantasize about both guys and girls about the same time. I just never acted on my feelings towards men. Now, later in life, I have swung both ways. And I have to say I enjoy sex with women much more. Haha. That isn't to say I'm not bi, I quite likely am, but all in all, I find I love women, and sex with guys can be hot.

[drushin703]

The original poster (furpus63) started this post with the innocent admission that he was bi and had wondered whether others, (crossdressers I suspect since
this is a forum for and about crossdressers) were bi as well. I read thru all the posts and can fully understand why a yes or no answer could not and would
not be possible. My answer for you furpus63 is that I am not but with qualifications. I go out every weekend and have never gone out without being hit on by
a man.Some are polite, some aggressive, some kiss me on my neck, all hug me and most try to feel my ass.Even without knowing the sexual status of the men,
whether they are bisexual, straight or homosexual, I know that I, with great intention, try to appeal to their innermost American fantasy; Short skirt or dress,
long pantyhosed legs, big breast forms, long wig, tall heels, perfumed, talkative, standing with my legs apart. I get a thrill out of the female display and a
greater thrill out of the attention it brings.But I have never NEVER acted on their advances, never called their numbers, never sat in their cars with them,
and never gave them my correct phone number.I often wonder how I would feel if I ever took it seriously. I dont know how I would act or feel in the morning
if I had been with a man that night.

I am a glam queen. My greatest fear is that my mother nor my close male friends, the members of my church, my co-workers, my big-mouthed
neighbor, my friends at the ballroom dance class, or good god my daughter, find out that I am a queen at all.

Bi, pan, straight, heterosexual, homosexual, hetroflexible(?), hetero-gender, otherworldly, triassic, jurassic, cretaceous.....their all just bones
in the ground...dana

[ReineD]

Even without knowing the sexual status of the men, whether they are bisexual, straight or homosexual, I know that I, with great intention, try to appeal to their innermost American fantasy; Short skirt or dress, long pantyhosed legs, big breast forms, long wig, tall heels, perfumed, talkative, standing with my legs apart. I get a thrill out of the female display and a greater thrill out of the attention it brings. But I have never NEVER acted on their advances ...

Side note, but this is what is so perplexing to me, even after all these years in this forum. Why would a CDer who is not into men, dress to attract them as if he was? :strugglin

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Side note, but this is what is so perplexing to me, even after all these years in this forum. Why would a CDer who is not into men, dress to attract them as if he was? :strugglin

It is an interesting mental puzzle, but I think it probably has a lot to do with just the fact that the attention gives a tangible reaction to how one is dressed, so it makes someone feel that they look good and even sexy while en femme. Even I, who usually don't even dress as a woman most of the time, will admit there's some degree of satisfaction from knowing someone, male or female, finds me attractive when I do. I made a brief foray into trying to make a little side money last year by posing for some amateur pin-up photos on a website that had a "crossdressers" section. Posing for sexy pictures in turn made me feel more sexy, and there was definitely some appeal to the idea that others would find them erotic. The idea of being a burlesque dancer or lingerie model still linger in me even though I know it would never work with my body. Reality also breaks through when I remember that the men who find me attractive do so specifically because I'm transgendered and that's what their attraction is based on and not really in responding to my feminine sensuality. It just sparks their fetish.

I don't think it's all that unusual for one to seek out attention like this though, when you think about it. I know plenty of girls, GG girls I mean, who go out for "ladies night out" even when they're in committed relationships and who will get annoyed when their friends will brush guys off with "Sorry, she's taken" type comments because they still like the attention even when they know the won't act on it.