MtF crossdressing is neither funny nor crazy

[Frédérique]

But that’s how people see us – we have all been stereotyped, my friends... :sad:

Years ago, fictitious Corporal (later Sergeant) Maxwell Q. Klinger could be seen every week on TV, and, unfortunately, I think he made an indelible impression on everyone. The good corporal, a fictional character in a popular sitcom (M*A*S*H*), was trying to gain a section 8 discharge from the Army. Being a heterosexual, he began to habitually wear women’s clothing to PROVE he was crazy. Naturally, being somewhat of a “family” show, the crossdressing was shown for comedic purposes only, indeed why else would this character (or situation) have been written into the script? After all, the idea of crossdressing, or “drag” if you must, is positively (or negatively) hilarious to the average American...

Of course Corporal Klinger, originally meant to be an effeminate male, morphed into a loveable non-passable crossdresser as his character developed. It could be no other way, under the comedic circumstances put forth. Since he was a “normal” guy under the female attire, everyone ignored Klinger’s attempts to have his fake mental instability recognized, in fact he was perhaps the most stable individual amongst the cast of characters. His crossdressing never got in the way of his duties, and he later gave up his discharge attempts altogether, in line with the TV show turning from comedy to drama over time. After all, there’s no need to crossdress in a drama, right?

Klinger was a crossdresser, but his crossdressing was simply a means to an end, done to exhibit “crazy behavior” unsuitable for the situation he found himself in. Apparently this character was based on Lenny Bruce’s earlier attempts to dodge military service by dressing as a WAVE. Then as now, it’s all about the absurdity of wearing the “wrong” clothes, since society feels there is something VERY wrong when a male wears clothes meant to be worn by females. This wrongness is reinforced when our beloved crossdressing is portrayed in this unfair manner and force fed, not so subliminally, to the masses via television. On the British show Blackadder Goes Forth, another military sitcom, the title character pretends to be crazy by wearing his underwear on his head and sticking two pencils up his nose, while crossdressing is presented (in other episodes) more sympathetically...

I notice such things, because they are meaningful to our situation as MtF crossdressers. People form opinions of our inexplicable behavior from what they have seen on TV – crossdressing, in America, is shown only for laughs, or as a blatant symbol of perversion or mental illness. This makes things that much more difficult for a crossdresser who is not mentally ill, does not engage in acts of perversion, and does not see anything funny about it. In the case of Cpl. Klinger, the show he was a part of was extremely popular, so millions of Americans learned to laugh at the comic CD relief he provided. He didn’t pass (joke), he was hairy (joke), and he was a guy in a dress (BIG joke)! Is it any wonder we MtF crossdressers are constantly swimming against the tide of opinion, or against unwarranted prejudice in this country?

This is corporal punishment, pure and simple – we, as MtF crossdressers, have had to absorb many body blows, and it really hurts. The people who watched the TV show in question may have a visual memory of Cpl. Klinger in his inappropriate clothing – he was a small part of a whole, a sympathetic, human character that nonetheless did something “crazy.” Afterwards, if a boy in a family begins to crossdress, the parents may only have these brief visual memories to fall back on for “information.” They may come to the conclusion that MtF crossdressing is inherently wrong, or it is evidence of something being wrong with the person who dresses. Think about it – the portrayal of CD’ing in America is tailored for American audiences by Americans, and its presence is purely there for laughs. If someone from this country comes on the site guilt-ridden and confused, you can thank this insistent brush-off crossdressing gets in the (American) media...

Like I said, these are BODY BLOWS, and they really hurt. First of all, MtF crossdressing is put forth as demonstratively crazy, as in “Why on Earth would a male do such a thing?” He MUST be insane, or in need of immediate, remedial attention. The sooner we nip this urge to wear women’s clothing in the bud, the better, right? Secondly, a man wearing a dress is FUNNY – it always has been, and it always will be, so it will be inserted in an otherwise unfunny situation to insure laughs (case in point – Cpl. Klinger on M*A*S*H*). Thirdly, crossdressing cannot be shown to be a beneficial thing, because that goes against all we’ve been taught, or told to believe. A CD’ing male who is a sympathetic, useful character (or person) cannot be shown in a dramatic context, so the crossdressing is gradually written out of the script until it disappears completely. They (the writers) missed a great opportunity here, but the uneducated, prejudiced American viewing public wouldn’t buy it in any event...

I’m sure everyone breathed a sigh of relief when the fictitious Corporal Klinger closed his closet and accepted his fate. He was born in a more liberal time, and died in a conservative TV era that reflected the current events of the early 80’s. Everything veered to the right, and everybody (briefly) breathed a sigh of relief – the crossdressers were pushed out of sight, where they belong (according to the majority), and we were left holding the purse. I wish to state that I don’t dress because I’m crazy, and I don’t dress to make others (or myself) laugh at the absurdity of it all. I dress because I HAVE to, because I WANT to, and it makes me feel GOOD. In my personal non-comedic situation, the MtF crossdresser is someone worth knowing – he doesn’t represent harm to anyone, he’s not there to upset anyone, and he’s not trying to unravel the fabric of society. He (make that SHE) is just trying to express a nearly un-expressible truth, namely that of a co-joined soul, closer to the ONE...

Have you ever seen a decent, realistic depiction of MtF crossdressing in this country? I haven’t... :idontknow:

[Julogden]

Yes, I have seen a decent, realistic portrayal of crossdressing here. On the Drew Carey, his brother Steve was a recurring character who was a crossdresser, and they did a very good job with him and the situation. Being a sitcom, there was humor involved, but not demeaning humor.

I remember seeing an interview in a trans community publication with John Carroll Lynch, the actor who played Carey's brother, and he was very respectful of the character and the community, I was very impressed with his approach to the character.

And Tony Curtis did a good job (IMO) playing a conventional crossdresser on an episode of Brooke Shields' sitcom "Suddenly Susan", but it was definitely played for laughs. Brooke's character set him up with her mother for a date, which worked well, and it later turned out that he was a CD. They broke up not because he was a CD, but because his political leanings weren't compatible with Susan's mother's.

Unfortunately, that's about all I can come up with.

Carol

[Marleena]

The only realistic movie about a crossdresser I've seen is Ed Wood by Johnny Depp.

The rest are all done in fun, and not realistic from the point of view of a real crossdresser. There is a new TV show coming up about two crossdressing men that I'm sure will not tackle it seriously either.

I missed the one on Drew Carey...

Yes we are stereotyped, and have to live with it. I don't really care anymore, it won't stop me, I am who I am.

Screw the haters!

[Alice Torn]

Freddy, Sad but true. But, I have revealed my cding, and photos, too, to my femake veterans therapist. She is totally accepting, and they actualy have a support group, at Madison Wi, and a special therapist, for it. However, the VAST, VAST MAJORITY, do not accept men wearing ladies clothes, and do consider it sick, shameful, perverted, deviant, clownish, weird, homosexual, yada yada yada. I don't think this will ever change very much. Of course, women wearing clothes designed for men, is totally kosher, now. As some have written, society accepts women in mens clothes, because it is like stepping up,or forward. A man in a dress and heels, is considered degrading his masculinity, stepping down into a woman's role. Society, does not realize it, or most people, but, they really consider a woman's role inferior, yet, because it is considered a step down, and degrading for a man, to wear a dress.

[Longing2be-Trisha]

Hi All!

Has any one seen the new commercial for two guys dressing to get a job? A spin on a previous show with two men getting an apartment. I don't think they are going to paint a good picture about CD or Tg/tv/ts, except to make fun of us in general.

Hugs

[ReineD]

We all are stereotyped, Freddy, not just crossdressers: jocks, blondes, nerds, hippies, emos, geeks, goths, druggies, alchoholics, artsy-fartsies, yuppies, to name a few, and that's not mentioning stereotypes based on race, religion, political affiliation, career choice, educational level (both ways), or sexual orientation.

I found an excellent teaching resource to help students identify the many ways we all stereotype people. We need more of this in schools, together with comprehensive education about gender and sexual variance.

http://remember.org/guide/History.root.stereotypes.html

[JenniferR771]

Insightful and right as rain, Freddy. It may be a long time for our misunderstood minority to gain any kind of acceptance. We can only hope and struggle--and perhaps try to explain cd to whomever we have the courage to meet (as our real selves) in a clear and sympathetic way.

[TGMarla]

Those with little understanding except for the ongoing stereotypes will work to progress those stereotypes. So we get an ongoing littany of that stereotype in the media, especially on television. The people who produce this stuff must have never felt the nagging and ongoing, irrepressable desire to crossdress as we do. There are very few of us who crossdress only for fun, making a mockery of it while doing so. The vast majority of us do so with a genuine desire to appear as normal as possible when we are en femme. I mean, who wants to make a laughingstock of oneself? You look at the usual depiction of a crossdresser on TV, and it's some guy with a 5:00 shadow in lipstick, a deep voice, walking bowl-legged with chicken legs in high heels. It's very rare that you get anything more than that. Could we not see, just once on television, a woman who is noticed, respected, accepted, even sought after, who turns out to be that same man in the neighborhood that everyone likes, respects, and accepts?

I guess it's human nature to mock that which one does not understand.

[stacycoral]

Freddy, i have a copy of a movie called JUST LIKE A WOMAN, it is the best movie i have seen about a true life story of a CD, a american living in London, if you have not seen it, it is worth purchasing it and watching what she was to put up with. IBy the way i purchased my copy at ebay.

[Violetgray]

Wow, A Frederique post that I was able to get almost 90% of the way through!

As someone who wears underwear on my head and pencils in my nose, I find this post offensive.

In fact, I DEMAND the moderators open an "underwear on head, pencils in nose" section in the message board (The underwear is panties, and the pencils are pink.)

To be fair, Reine those groups you mentioned aren't even in the same league with the crap that we have to put up with. I've never read "My wife found out I was goth and divorced me."

[Stephenie S]

Dear Violet,

Please don't run with the pencils in your nose, no matter what color they are.

S

[ReineD]

To be fair, Reine those groups you mentioned aren't even in the same league with the crap that we have to put up with. I've never read "My wife found out I was goth and divorced me."

You've heard of the killing of 6 million jews and the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII? What about slavery and the prejudice against African Americans that still exists in many pockets of society? The treatment of women in Afghanistan and in other parts of the world? Some people have it even worse, Violet.

[Violetgray]

Reine, that's my fault I should have clarified. Religious Minorities, People of color and women? Definitely. jocks, blondes, nerds, hippies, emos, geeks, goths, druggies, alchoholics, artsy-fartsies, yuppies? Not so much.

[ReineD]

Violet, not to be a pain, but if you're not accepted in high school for whatever reason, you stand to be bullied and suffer just as debilitating an experience as a young crossdresser. Some kids have committed suicide over this. Former alcoholics are denied jobs if they mention rehab or prior DUIs on application forms. And the list goes on.

[suchacutie]

In fact, I have seen a portrayal of a transition (including SRS) but it was 25 years ago and I'm having trouble remembering the sitcom because I hadn't thought of this episode in all these years. It might have been Newhart, or Mary Tyler Moore, but there was a courtroom scene and the meeting of an old friend, the intro being that "she" used to be a he, and although the friend was startled, it was handled very well, as I recall. I'll have to see if I can find it!

tina

[Violetgray]

Reine, You're not being a pain, I enjoy these discussion! :-) And of course people find any excuse at all bully each other. I knew a Chinese girl in college who was shunned by the other Chinese girls because she wasn't from Beijing. I mean really!?!? Geez!

But those people don't get the Bible quoted at them, and there's not the same sense of.. unnaturalness that people feel toward crossdressing!

[ReineD]

But those people don't get the Bible quoted at them, and there's not the same sense of.. unnaturalness that people feel toward crossdressing!

No, they don't get the Bible quoted at them. There are also many people who are Bible thumped and who don't care, since they see the Bible as an historical text more than a definitive guide to living their lives. It is being shunned and vilified that is devastating. We all need to be accepted. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "yuppie", but if any one person that presents as one of the stereotypes I mention above doesn't have a peer group to hang out with and thus invalidate them, their social experience is very bleak.

I can see why CDers would believe that no one has it as bad as they do, but everyone who is ostracized feels this way.

[Laurie A]

Frederique,

There are theories regarding comedy (why something is seen as funny) dating back from Aristotle to Freud and beyond, but two theories could apply to your example of Klinger in MASH.

The first theory of why it is funny is that of "incongruity". An army soldier, dressed in pearls and heels is very inappropriate, and the "wrongness" of the situation is said to be humorous.

Another explanation of why it is funny is that of "superiority". An army soldier, dressed in pearls and heels, is in essence, morally defective, and as viewers we see ourselves as superior to that person and therefor it is said to be humorous.

Let's remember that there have been examples of cross dressing in theater (I think of television and the movies as an extension of dramatic literature) dating back to ancient times. Through out western history, I am hard pressed to think of an example of a crossdressed character (male to female) portrayed for anything other than laughs, until the last fifty(?) years or so. What I am trying to say is that crossdressing is deeply coded into our cultural heritage as ridiculous and morally corrupt. (Is it no wonder that many of us are afraid to step outside our homes whilst dressed?)

There are similar examples of how women and ethnic minorities have been portrayed comically through out literary history, and they are no less offensive to our modern view. But slowly those old ideas are evolving... In regards to your example of Corporal Klinger though, we have a long way to go to change the hearts and minds of our collective culture.

[TGMarla]

Suchacutie, that sitcom may have been "Night Court". I remember Dan (John Larroquette (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0488662/)) was looking forward to meeting up with an old college buddy, one that had joined in many manly escapades with him, and he turned up as a woman. This person was accepted, not without a little shock, but accepted nonetheless. I remember Dan telling her, in regards to the fact that she was no longer a man, "But you were so good at it!!!"

Reine, I understand completely the correlation you are trying to make in regards to exploited, ridiculed, and ostracized peoples, however, if you put "jocks, blondes, nerds, hippies, emos, geeks, goths, druggies, alchoholics, artsy-fartsies, (and) yuppies" in a room with a crossdresser, the bully will beat the hell out of the crossdresser before he even bothers with any of the rest of the crowd. The crossdresser will also likely lose his job, his wife, and the respect of his neighbors before any of the others do, too. Had Rush Limbaugh been outed as a crossdresser, rather than admitting to substance abuse, he'd no longer have a radio show. Marv Albert was outed as someone who had an affinity for wearing lacy lingerie, and he lost his career (at least temporarily) over it. This would not have happened had it been substance abuse, or if he was blonde, Japanese, a geek, or an alchoholic. Howard Cosell was an alchoholic, and he was considered an icon in his field.

So forgive me if I agree with Violet on this one. Crossdressing is more often a complete deal breaker, while other nuances of one's existence are more often overlooked or accepted, even begrudgingly.

[Rachel Flowers]

We have a sitcom My Family here in the UK. In one of the greatest episodes, Ben is perturbed to find his old school friend Charlie is now a woman. The humour is well handled, focussing first on Ben's struggle to adjust, but finishing his robust Defence to another character of Charlie's right to be who she is.
I've got to say, Freddie darling, you write beautifully but like Reine, I'm not convinced this is special ill-treatment for CDs, as all comedy consists of mocking stereotypes.

[dsmth]

I just found this wiki link that seems relevant although I have not read through it all yet... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-dressing_in_film_and_television

[Stephanie47]

Television shows have to pass muster with the general audience in order to be successful. To be successful the show has to sell advertisements. Just look at the DVD selections on Amazon or in a store. Shows from long ago had 39 episodes. Then they had 26 episodes. Then they had 13 episodes. Now some of my favorite shows appear for six episodes.

Corporal Klinger was a character in a very successful show- MASH* (1972-1983). I believe Klinger's appeal as a character was directly related to the age of the viewing audience, who experienced the absurdity of serving in the military and the front lines. Amid all the mayhem of war there are always 'unusual' characters and situations that existed. I think Klinger was necessary to counter act the seriousness of war. If Klinger was a bona fida cross dresser he would have been discharged. In an ongoing sitcom with serious topics, I think it was necessary to portrait Klinger as a sane person looking for a section eight discharge. Didn't Radar O'Reilly have a Teddy Bear?

Wearing a dress does not make a cross dresser!

[Acastina]

Of course, women wearing clothes designed for men, is totally kosher, now. As some have written, society accepts women in mens clothes, because it is like stepping up,or forward. A man in a dress and heels, is considered degrading his masculinity, stepping down into a woman's role. Society, does not realize it, or most people, but, they really consider a woman's role inferior, yet, because it is considered a step down, and degrading for a man, to wear a dress.

Bingo. It's sexism, and that's why more GGs should try harder to accept and understand us. It's why FtM transsexuals fare better generally; they're aspiring to the superior role.

It does kind of make you wonder what we would be if human society had never divided clothing up into gender-appropriate categories. Like the old Maoist unisex look in China or dystopian sci-fi. How would our sense of differentness manifest itself? Hmmmmmm.

[Genivieve]

My first degree was in film and media studies. In a lot of my classes there were discussions of minority representation in cinema and television. In most cases the first appearance of a group is treated with excess stereotype and cheap humor. For instance, when African Americans began to make a presence on screen, they were often goofy clownish characters, servants, ect. Even in the 80's there was that dumb movie Soul Man where a white guy goes in blackface...it is sooo badly exaggerated.

Then there are the million creepy gay characters, hispanics, Asians (Mickey Rooney Breakfast at Tiffany's, Long Duk Dong 16 Candles)....

Now we've gotten much better at having some semblance of respect.

On the other hand, I have trouble feeling hopeful about cross dressing. Just now, There's Something About Mary was on T.V. and her creepy boyfriend hugs all her shoes. I constantly see CD's associated with madmen. We're barely inching towards trans acceptance but crossdressing seems to be several tiers lower on the respect scale. Oh yeah, I also just saw an MTV show where friends set friends up on horror dates. Yup, the horrible guy was a crossdresser, and a bad one at that.

Ugh.

[ReineD]

Reine, I understand completely the correlation you are trying to make in regards to exploited, ridiculed, and ostracized peoples, however, if you put "jocks, blondes, nerds, hippies, emos, geeks, goths, druggies, alchoholics, artsy-fartsies, (and) yuppies" in a room with a crossdresser, the bully will beat the hell out of the crossdresser before he even bothers with any of the rest of the crowd.

There are two layers here. The first is at the high school level or younger, where children are punished for not fitting in. A young boy committed suicide in my area recently. He was a very smart boy (a geek or a nerd) who was teased without mercy. There are thousands of stories like his. Be a yuppie or a preppie and walk into a biker bar late at night. You'll get a thrashing if you're in the wrong bar.



The crossdresser will also likely lose his job, his wife, and the respect of his neighbors before any of the others do, too. Had Rush Limbaugh been outed as a crossdresser, rather than admitting to substance abuse, he'd no longer have a radio show. Marv Albert was outed as someone who had an affinity for wearing lacy lingerie, and he lost his career (at least temporarily) over it. This would not have happened had it been substance abuse, or if he was blonde, Japanese, a geek, or an alchoholic. Howard Cosell was an alchoholic, and he was considered an icon in his field.

Not in every case, which brings us to the adult layer. Recovered alcoholics have been refused jobs because of their past. If this is not severe discrimination, I don't know what is. On the other hand, Amanda Simpson is a political appointee in the Obama administration who is also a transwoman. There are college professors, doctors, lawyers, and many others who are successful despite being trans. There are many sites that list them all, if you care to google. My SO and I go out frequently and we are treated with respect, even when people know she is trans. These people have no way of knowing whether she is a CD or TS, since most people are unfamiliar with the difference between the two, and also my SO doesn't wear a sign. But, we are not beaten up when we go out. :)

My earlier point was not to create a contest to see who is most punished, but to rather point out there are many groups of people and individuals who are discriminated against, not just crossdressers.

[Violetgray]

I can see why CDers would believe that no one has it as bad as they do, but everyone who is ostracized feels this way.

Ah, see right here is where the misunderstanding is. I don't think anyone claims that CDs have it the worst. Transsexuals get it WAY worse than we usually do, and shell out money for transition on top of it all. But at the same time it's just not the same as being picked on for being a nerd.

This is coming from someone who got picked on a LOT for being a nerd.

[Genivieve]

Can you think of many groups in today's society who are looked down upon, freaky, or downright taboo on the same level as crossdressers? A jock or alcoholic wont get beaten up for walking down the street.

[ReineD]

Ah, see right here is where the misunderstanding is. I don't think anyone claims that CDs have it the worst.

Point taken. :hugs:

I don't know why I felt it necessary to point out that other folks also suffer. I didn't mean to take away from the very real fact that CDs are discriminated against and it is a source of frustration for everyone here, including me (for my SO).

[Sarah Doepner]

Public attitudes and expectations come back to the stereotypes that are used by the majority of the population. Unfortunately crossdressers are not the ones who control, or even influence, the main stream of culture where those stereotypes are created and grow. How do we gain some kind of input into society so there is a broader definition of crossdressing that works to change the existing stereotypes? As long as opinion is based on "funny" or "mentally ill", it will be difficult to have an adult conversation.

On the subtopic of portrayals on tv, there was an episode of The Closer titled Make Over with Beau Bridges appearing as a T.S. that was very well done. Here's a link; http://www.tv.com/shows/the-closer/make-over-1284821/

[LilSissyStevie]

Some of us are crazy and funny looking. What's wrong with that?

[Claire Cook]

Have you seen the movie "Just Like a Woman"? It comes as close as anything I've seen to conveying what CD'ers are about. I thought it honest and it hit home. The scene where the title character is pulled over by a cop had me really on edge (like when it happened to me...) and the final scene in the board room was a real :thumbsup:

Hmmm .. come to think of it, it might have been made in the UK, not here....

[GBJoker]

You've heard of the killing of 6 million jews and the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII?

Plus 3 million LGB's, 2-3 mil Russians, at least 4000 TG's (Yes, TG's, from across the spectrum), at least 1 million disabled, and at least 1 million others that fit into a variety of demographics.

BUT!!!, to stay on topic... I recommend an episode from The Closer. I forget which exactly season it's in (maybe 3 or 4), but there is an episode where the old guy's former partner comes back into town to re-open some case, and he has now transitioned fully, through CD'ing all the way past SRS, into a she. Old guy hates it, the rest of the cast seems fairly cool with it, and old guy eventually is cool with it by the end of the episode.

Also, whenever anything concerning the TG spectrum is brought up on NCIS, they seem to treat it with extremely high levels of dignity. Of course, maybe that's just because Gibbs is there... Ah, Gibbs... (Starts day-dreaming...)


Some of us are crazy and funny looking. What's wrong with that?

I say nothing. Hence the name. But then again, who am I to call people crazy?


Can you think of many groups in today's society who are looked down upon, freaky, or downright taboo on the same level as crossdressers? A jock or alcoholic wont get beaten up for walking down the street.

Disabled, LGB's... Uh... Maybe Islamics, depending on where you're at (in several parts of America at least)... Child Molesters are pretty high up there, what with basically their entire lives being put on display for every one to see. I can think of others later.

[Julogden]

We all are stereotyped, Freddy, not just crossdressers: jocks, blondes, nerds, hippies, emos, geeks, goths, druggies, alchoholics, artsy-fartsies, yuppies, to name a few, and that's not mentioning stereotypes based on race, religion, political affiliation, career choice, educational level (both ways), or sexual orientation.

I found an excellent teaching resource to help students identify the many ways we all stereotype people. We need more of this in schools, together with comprehensive education about gender and sexual variance.

http://remember.org/guide/History.root.stereotypes.html
Reine, you're right about all that, but keep in mind that there are a lot of people fighting hard to prevent LGBT (especially T) people from getting equal rights protection under the law and to reverse our protections where we've got them already. They're working hard to be able to legally discriminate against us.

And as badly as women are treated in some parts of the middle east, trans people are treated at least as badly if not worse, as they are jailed or even killed simply for being trans in many cases. In Iran, trans people are technically accepted by the government, but the reality is that they are not accepted by society and often end up as sex workers, and gay people in Iran are forced to either renounce their ways or lie and say that they're TS, but then they have to undergo SRS. Transwomen in Kuwait and Iraq are arrested, beaten and humiliated, then forced to shave their heads in an effort to "cure" them. Check out this page (http://www.tsroadmap.com/notes/index.php/site/comments/trans_women_in_middle_east_face_more_crackdowns_an d_abuses/#). Be sure to watch the video at the bottom about the Iraqi trans woman who was humiliated and killed by the government for being transgendered. And watch this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROUBqSkhO9U&feature=related) too.

Carol

[LeaP]

Freddy, this is a really good deconstruction. I tend to agree with most of it, largely because Klinger's crossdressing is used ONLY as comic relief. Everyone in the cast comes in to plots for a comic turn once in a while, and the writers spare few sacred cows, but no others are used in such clownlike fashion - not even Frank Burns. The movie handled the complexity of the characters better, I think. The TV show reduced things to caricatures and politics.

I have not seen a really good or sensitive depiction of crossdressing. The closest I can cite is "The Extra Man", which touches on it briefly without judgement, but it's a very minor theme in the film.

Lea

[Veronica27]

Crossdressing is usually played for laughs in movies and television, but, after all, we are usually talking about comedies. Many aspects of life are lampooned, satirized and poked fun of, but because of societal attitudes about crossdressing, it usually comes out appearing to be hit the hardest by the jokes. There have been some excellent portrayals of crossdressing, despite the usual trend, over the years, and many have been mentioned here. The best, I think, was Steve on Drew Carrey whose normal appearance and acceptance by everyone was somewhat of a counter foil to the outlandish appearance of Mimi, the character he later married, who demanded that he quit his crossdressing, while carrying on her ridiculous makeup and clothing. Mimi was the character everyone loved to hate.

Another show that presented it well was "All in the Family", which made the joke be about Archie's intolerance, rather than the crossdresser's activities. The CD was made to be the sympathetic character. The John Laroquette show, as mentioned, also treated it well, although it was so well presented, I can't remember whether it was CD or TS. On Becker, there was an episode where a former friend of Becker's showed up following SRS. This was also handled very well, although I have found that TS is usually treated with more dignity as a rule on comedies, than simple crossdressing.

The new show coming out is like all the movies, and the old Bosom Buddies show. They are not really CD's, but just do it for some specific reason. The humour usually revolves around the scrapes they get into, and their lack of passability. I don't think that most of these cases have the same impact of poking fun at CD's as when the character is really a CD and is the butt of the humour because of that.

Other than Just Like A Woman, I don't know of any dramatic presentation of CDing that presents a sympathetic view of the topic.

I loved the British series that has been mentioned, My Family. I seem to recall an episode where son Nick decided he was going to be a tranny. His character made the show a success, and this was just one of many zany activities, jobs and situations that he was always dreaming up for himself. He was laughable as a tranny, but then his character was so laughable normally that it did not hurt the CD cause in my estimation but was just plain funny and fun.

Veronica

[janet p]

I know I'm old but I heard no mention of Tootsie,Bussom Buddies or Victor Victor.

[5150 Girl]

I think the OP is a little hard on Klinger... Yes, his chericatrer was for comic relife, but his stunter were not confine to CDing.... One time he had an imaginary camel, he sat on top of a basketball pole, tryed to eat a jeep, took off on a hang glider, among other things.
I love Klinger, and actualy have a t shirt that says MASH 4077 on the front and KLINGER on the back

[LeaP]

I think the OP is a little hard on Klinger... Yes, his chericatrer was for comic relife, but his stunter were not confine to CDing.... One time he had an imaginary camel, he sat on top of a basketball pole, tryed to eat a jeep, took off on a hang glider, among other things.
I love Klinger, and actualy have a t shirt that says MASH 4077 on the front and KLINGER on the back

And being lumped in with all this helps CDs and TGs how?

Lea

[kimdl93]

I used to cringe every time Klinger came on screen. I was afraid people would see the connection between me and that fictional crossdresser.

[Genivieve]

Plus 3 million LGB's, 2-3 mil Russians, at least 4000 TG's (Yes, TG's, from across the spectrum), at least 1 million disabled, and at least 1 million others that fit into a variety of demographics.

BUT!!!, to stay on topic... I recommend an episode from The Closer. I forget which exactly season it's in (maybe 3 or 4), but there is an episode where the old guy's former partner comes back into town to re-open some case, and he has now transitioned fully, through CD'ing all the way past SRS, into a she. Old guy hates it, the rest of the cast seems fairly cool with it, and old guy eventually is cool with it by the end of the episode.

Also, whenever anything concerning the TG spectrum is brought up on NCIS, they seem to treat it with extremely high levels of dignity. Of course, maybe that's just because Gibbs is there... Ah, Gibbs... (Starts day-dreaming...)



I say nothing. Hence the name. But then again, who am I to call people crazy?



Disabled, LGB's... Uh... Maybe Islamics, depending on where you're at (in several parts of America at least)... Child Molesters are pretty high up there, what with basically their entire lives being put on display for every one to see. I can think of others later.


Eeek thats what happens we get lumped with the likes of child molesters. Yet, they don't exactly wear molester hats so we can easily pick them out. I know they are on a website, but they actually harmed someone where we do it to ourselves.

Also, mentioning others who suffered more in the past kind of derails the topic. That logic could be used for anything. Like oh poor Cd'ers can't buy their high heels without discrimination. What about the guy who has no feet!

[drushin703]

F.

If I weren't such a limp wristed, boody twitching, makeup wearing cd, I too would find it (the depiction of cds in film and on tv) funny.


I remember Klinger and although I did not enjoy even the comic depiction of war, when he appeared on my tv screen I was revited to his image.
I was constantly asking myself, "is that me"? Do I, in any way, look like that? Or worse, act like that?What is funny today is certainly not
the same funny as thirty years ago but humor, all humor, follows the same laws and an equal equation.Humor is an anecdotal account of
an event or happening to a target audience in real time.Thats why racial jokes or jokes demeaning women or handicapped individuals are
TODAY in such bad tast.Friends, get in your cars or take a walk in any direction and to any location.When you return home stressed by road-rage
or your feet tired, count the number of cds that you saw..probably none. Zip, zero. What comes across as funny is nothing more than
our absence to a general society. It is hard for some to imagine us speaking, holding a conversation, liking sports or swallowing liquids.


To cd is to live in the moment; waiting for his cue to throw the confetti in the air......dana

[Acastina]

Uh... Maybe Islamics, depending on where you're at (in several parts of America at least)... Child Molesters are pretty high up there, what with basically their entire lives being put on display for every one to see. I can think of others later.

Not to get overly PC, but isn't that term a bit like "Christianityists"? Followers of Islam are called Muslims, and they do indeed endure needless and unjustifiable prejudice, witness the Lowe's advertising scandal (The Learning Channel has a reality show that documents the everyday lives of American Muslims in Michigan, and, because one bigoted "Christian" group from the South objected that the show did NOT show them as terrorists, the group demanded that sponsors boycott the show; Lowe's took the bait, and now Lowe's is being boycotted).

And noting that child molesters are treated with the same disdain as CDs posits a false equivalence between harmless activity and conduct that is inherently extremely harmful. Just sayin'.

[Alice Torn]

I was always picked on in every school, and picked on at home by older brothers, for being a bed wetter, the baby of the family, and talol and skinny. I was picked on for being a Christian also, and some called me a Jew, because i rest on Saturday. But, crossdressing is in a new level, where almost no part of the world accepts it, and I would be blasted, considered a deviant, if i told regular people.

[Kathy Smith]

I always liked the "Denise Bryson" character in "Twin Peaks". http://uk.stars.ign.com/articles/838/838351p1.html
I'm not saying that the character was presented without humour, but I feel that s/he was written relatively sympathetically allowing for the collection of odd characters in this series!

[Kathleen]

I always liked the "Denise Bryson" character in "Twin Peaks". http://uk.stars.ign.com/articles/838/838351p1.html
I'm not saying that the character was presented without humour, but I feel that s/he was written relatively sympathetically allowing for the collection of odd characters in this series!

Kathy - excellent, totally agree. I had almost completed a long post yesterday on exactly that when my connection died and I lost it!

Yes, Denise was the first intelligently-presented CDing character I can ever remember seeing, and this was in 1990. I remember watching with my wife (only married a few years then) who was digging the character and thinking wow, maybe there's hope!

I loved that while the irony and the initial shock value was played up, as usual for a David Lynch work, after each introduction the plot advanced regardless of her dressing. Which is as it should be. It also helped that David Duchovny looked awfully good in a skirt, too.

I was rewatching these shows recently in the boxed set, and was amazed to find 20 years later how much I wanted to be like her.

[5150 Girl]

And being lumped in with all this helps CDs and TGs how?

Lea

Because the audience was not inteded to see Klinger as a crossdresser per-say... They were to see his cross dressing as just anohter trick in a long line of stunts to get out of the Army. The distinction is vauge I grant you.