A Hustle work place

[Missy]

I am at work wearing panties and a bra under work uniform like every day
coworker asked if I was wearing a bra? told her the truth
later the manager came and ask to speak with me
he told me that I had to not wear a bra any more and that I just may lose my job
was told that I poses a hustle work tension towards the other employees

[LeannL]

Missy,
I don't know if Kansas has a statute protecting transgendered persons but the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals has recently ruled that discrimination against a gender non-conforming person is gender discrimination. Their recent ruling also noted that they are not the first Circuit to have come to this conclusion. There is a thread in the Media section with more information. I would mention to the boss that recent Appeals court decisions would suggest that firing you would be illegal. Here is the link to the actual opinion:

http://http://www.ca11.uscourts.gov/.../201014833.pdf

The 11th Circuit is considered a fairly conservative one and most think that if they have decided this case in this manner, then others will follow.

Good luck,

Leann

[Robertacd]

I think you mean hostile workplace :doh: dang that auto correct... Anyway I guess it really depends on how much you value this job and if it is worth risking your personal privacy pushing the matter.

If other employees view you wearing a bra is making a hostile workplace for them. Then your only alternative to complying is to openly declare yourself as a transgender and check your states employment discrimination laws and see if they offer some protection.

In the end it's probably going to mean you filing a lawsuit, following through, and dealing with the media circus that will follow.

[Clueless]

Is there something in the employee dress code about men wearing bras or women's clothes? How noticeable was it? If it's just a few lines that can be seen, that's kinda lame. A see thru shirt with a bra could make some people wonder. I can't see it raising to the level of sexual harassment or "tension" whatever that is. Maybe you could get the next size up shirt so it fits a bit baggy on you. What kind of job is it?

[sissystephanie]

I am not at all sure I understand what a "Hustle work place" is, or what "Hustle work tension" is! But I also wonder why you told the lady coworker that you were wearing a bra. Could she see it? It was none of her business, and obviously she told the manager!!

Hope you don't lose your job over it!

[sandra-leigh]

What was your attitude when you told your co-worker ? There is "Why yes, you are right, I am", and there is "Ya? What's it to you?!". The latter could be considered a hostile attitude towards other employees even if the other employee should not have been inquiring about such things.

On the other hand, if the employee (or someone she told) happened to have strong religious or moral objections to men wearing bras, then there might have been a "complaint" about it, and then at that point if you were to wear a bra after being told that people objected, you could potentially be considered to be deliberately provoking them. Again, not that it should be any of their business, but you know how people can get huffy about things they ought to ignore.

It is a sad truth that when it comes to something nebulous like strong religious objections, it can be easier to replace one employee (you) than to replace several complainers who are in the wrong to try to impose their beliefs on others.

[LeannL]

All,

I need to be clearer than I was above. If this job is covered by the EEO regulations, sex (gender) discrimination would not be allowed and then, based upon the 11th Circuit's ruling, your boss' actions would also sex discrimination. To wit, the Appeals court said:


A person is defined as transgender precisely because of the perception that his or her behavior transgresses gender stereotypes. “[T]he very acts that define transgender people as transgender are those that contradict stereotypes of gender appropriate appearance and behavior.” Ilona M. Turner, Sex Stereotyping Per Se: Transgender Employees and Title VII, 95 Cal. L. Rev. 561, 563 (2007); see also Taylor Flinn, Transforming the Debate: Why We Need to Include Transgender Rights in the Struggles for Sex and Sexual Orientation Equality, 101 Colum. L. Rev. 392, 392 (2001) (defining transgender persons as those whose “appearance, behavior, or other personal characteristics differ from traditional gender norms”). There is thus a congruence between discriminating against transgender and transsexual individuals and discrimination on the basis of gender-based behavioral norms.

Accordingly, discrimination against a transgender individual because of her gender non-conformity is sex discrimination, whether it’s described as being on the basis of sex or gender. Indeed, several circuits have so held. For example, in Schwenk v. Hartford, the Ninth Circuit concluded that a male-to-female transgender plaintiff who was singled out for harassment because he presented and defined himself as a woman had stated an actionable claim for sex discrimination under the Gender Motivated Violence Act because “the perpetrator’s actions stem from the fact that he believed that the victim was a man who ‘failed to act like one.’” 204 F.3d 1187, 1198-1203 (9th Cir. 2000).

The court is clear, I think, that discrimination based upon your actions not meeting the gender stereotypes is sex discrimination. If your company is covered by the anti-discrimination laws (and 99.99% are due to the interstate commerce clause), then you are protected. As someone said, you might have to sue them if they take action but letting your boss read the opinion (and point out the above quote) and then pass it on to their lawyers should quickly get him off of your back. The threat of back pay, damages and lawyers fees should be enough. (Of course, the guy who lost the Georgia suit was absolutely stupid! So, you can never tell.)

Depending upon where you work and if you have an HR department, I would quickly have a quiet conversation with HR first. After that, they should talk to your boss. At that point, it would be wise for you, HR and your boss to then meet and have a conversation. If you don't have an HR department, then I would have a non-confrontational conversation with your boss where you point out that the courts have been supporting transgendered people such as yourself. I would emphasize that you are are not trying to make a big deal out of this but you need to be yourself and ask him to support you. While having the court's opinion in your favor, be careful in your attitude and tone. Use it to point out that you are helping your boss and the company avoid a sure loss if they weren't aware of the law and therefore didn't follow it.

Good luck,
Leann

[Rachel Morley]

"Hustle work place"?? .. if you mean hostile work place then yes, I get what you're saying. In California where I live it doesn't matter what your intention was, it only matters what the impact is to your co-workers (we all have to take training in this) ... having said that I fail to see how the outline of your bra is "hostile" or making a co-worker feel uncomfortable, but then again, it's not the intention, it's only the impact that matters. i.e. the law is on the side of the person who feels violated. :sad:

[KandisTX]

One other thing to consider is the work place. What kind of business is it? There are many reasons why the manager would say something to you about no more wearing a bra to work. There are laws to protect you out there, but as Rachel pointed out "Intention is not the issue", "Impact on those around you" that is the issue. While you may not feel that your wearing a bra is anyone's business but your own, the others around you may well feel "put off" by it, and that could create a "hostile work place". I'm sure many of us wish we could wear what we wanted to work. I work 4 days a week myself and for two of those days I am the only one in the office. I wear panties and pantyhose daily, and on those days when I am the only one there, I wear a bra or a body briefer as well, BUT as I said, I am the only one there. Could I dress completely? Probably if I weren't in the transportation industry and did not care about how those I come in contact with (truck drivers and some vendors) thought of me. I do not dress fully because it is not wise in my position, not worth the risk of certain co-workers whom are also outside friends of mine. We must make our decisions carefully and in this economy, is wearing a bra worth risking gainful employment?

[Vanessa Storrs]

Time to lawyer up. Call the ACLU and get their advice. Even if you have decided to take no action it is best to have this on the record in case. The company does something to you later. It appears that you have a strong case for harrasment, discrimination and a hostile work environment.

[Miranda-E]

There are only two options at this point. Lawyer up and fight for your rights or cave to discrimination.
I'd have my lawyer contact the HR department directly the have HR come to me or my lawyer with their solution offer and go from there.

[DanaR]

Next time don't answer the question, your co-worker shouldn't have asked anyway. Many times people give too much information.

[Renee W]

Your co-worker sexually harassed you first by questioning what type of undergarments you were wearing. Asking if you were wearing a bra is no different that asking if you were wearing boxers or briefs that day.

Problem is that in today's society, we all tend to think of sexual harassment as being primarily women getting bothered by men, very rarely the other way around. What if you had asked her the same question? You'd be out the door in no time.

[LeannL]

With respect to this being a "hostile" workplace, Missy, by wearing a bra or any other piece of clothing (assuming there is no offensive writing on it), cannot make the environment hostile. She is not picking on anyone nor actively harassing anyone. On the other hand, her boss is creating a hostile environment because he/she is telling her that her "kind" aren't welcome there. This is no different than if she were gay, African-American, or a GG.

With respect to Missy wearing a bra causing someone distress based upon religious or other beliefs, the courts have put the expression of one's being (in this case Missy feels that she is a woman and needs a bra) comes ahead of someone else's belief as long at it is not truly (physically) disruptive. For example, someone can't get fired because he/she now wears a wedding ring from their gay marriage. Missy could wear a dress if she wanted to and the act of doing so would not create a hostile environment. Now, if having bare legs would cause a safety issue, the workplace could exclude a dress from acceptable clothing but it would apply to both men and women. (I work in such an environment - a chemical lab.)

Missy, just let HR know that you feel that you are being sexually harassed if things don't change.

Leann

[Foxglove]

Missy, I think there's been a number of good posts on this thread. Like this one from Renee:


Your co-worker sexually harassed you first by questioning what type of undergarments you were wearing. Asking if you were wearing a bra is no different that asking if you were wearing boxers or briefs that day.

Problem is that in today's society, we all tend to think of sexual harassment as being primarily women getting bothered by men, very rarely the other way around. What if you had asked her the same question? You'd be out the door in no time.

In my view, your underwear is your business and nobody else's. And Renee is right: would anyone these days ask a woman about her underwear? This is sex discrimination--even though people tend to think that men can't be victims of that.

But Rachel's reply has to be considered:


In California where I live it doesn't matter what your intention was, it only matters what the impact is to your co-workers (we all have to take training in this) ... having said that I fail to see how the outline of your bra is "hostile" or making a co-worker feel uncomfortable, but then again, it's not the intention, it's only the impact that matters. i.e. the law is on the side of the person who feels violated. :sad:

This is the sort of law that irritates me no end, and I think it's wrong. The problem with this sort of law is this: you often have no way of knowing whether what you're doing is wrong or not. If it's a question of stealing a car, that's easy: you know it's wrong. But you can't always foresee what others might or might not object to. It leaves it up to them to decide whether or not they dislike something that you're doing. If they decide they do dislike it, you're in trouble. If they decide they're cool with it, you're OK. But it's left to you to try and guess what other people might or might not object to. And you can't always know. Law should specify what's permitted and what's not, so that you know where you stand. This sort of law allows people to declare something permissible or otherwise accoring to their whims.

In the case of your wearing a bra to work, I think it could be foreseen that there would be objections. But whose business is it what you wear? This sort of law allows people to declare that things that aren't really their business are their business after all. Rather than encouraging people to be tolerant and accepting, this law allows everybody to be a little tyrant whenever it suits him/her. That said, as Rachel points out, it is law (at least in California) and you have to go along with it until it's changed.

People are advising you to lawyer up. I think I myself would talk to a lawyer, perhaps even contact the ACLU. But I think you need to decide first and foremost whether you can afford to lose the job, which might be a possibility if you press the issue. I'd certainly look into the legal side of things, but maybe a bit of caution is also warranted.

[LeannL]

Annabelle, Rachel and others,

You are suggesting that Missy's wearing a bra could create a hostile environment simply because someone can take offense to it. You are right that something someone does or says can, at times, be found to create a hostile environment based upon the other (affected) party's interpretation. However, this requires Missy to actively do something. For example, if Missy were to say to a woman (or a man), depending upon Missy's position in the company, that she thought they looked cute (or handsome), then that person could interpret that as a sexual advance and thus she would be creating a hostile environment. On the other hand, if I were to wear a pink shirt to work and some guy thinks that men should wear pink, his belief that men shouldn't wear pink, even if I am doing it on purpose, doesn't create a hostile environment. The jump from a pink shirt to a bra is non-existent. Therefore, wearing a bra under your shirt (blouse) cannot create a hostile environment even if someone believes it to be wrong. What if Missy has gynecomastia and needs to wear a bra to prevent chaffing? Someone's belief that she shouldn't does make this a hostile environment for anyone else.

Hope this helps.

Leann

[sandra-leigh]

Leann, I own a sweat-shirt that has a line-drawing of a Matisse nude female figure. I used to wear it at work until I realized that in doing so I could be considered that I was creating a hostile workplace environment. It was "art", but it could still certainly be considered uncomfortable and thus hostile, just as if I was using "artistic nudes" as my screen-saver.

The act of wearing something is legally considered to be doing or saying something -- otherwise publicly wearing T-shirts with "offensive" messages would not be considered to be protected speech under the First Amendment in the USA.

The situation is unfair, and might legally constitute sexual discrimination if women in the company are permitted to wear bras under the uniform (as seems likely), but we need to cite the right law.

[Foxglove]

Annabelle, Rachel and others,

You are suggesting that Missy's wearing a bra could create a hostile environment simply because someone can take offense to it. You are right that something someone does or says can, at times, be found to create a hostile environment based upon the other (affected) party's interpretation. However, this requires Missy to actively do something. For example, if Missy were to say to a woman (or a man), depending upon Missy's position in the company, that she thought they looked cute (or handsome), then that person could interpret that as a sexual advance and thus she would be creating a hostile environment. On the other hand, if I were to wear a pink shirt to work and some guy thinks that men should wear pink, his belief that men shouldn't wear pink, even if I am doing it on purpose, doesn't create a hostile environment. The jump from a pink shirt to a bra is non-existent. Therefore, wearing a bra under your shirt (blouse) cannot create a hostile environment even if someone believes it to be wrong. What if Missy has gynecomastia and needs to wear a bra to prevent chaffing? Someone's belief that she shouldn't does make this a hostile environment for anyone else.

Hope this helps.

Leann

Hello, Leann! I won't speak for the others, but I think you've misunderstood what I said.

"You are suggesting that Missy's wearing a bra could create a hostile environment simply because someone can take offense to it." No, this isn't what I'm saying. I think this is what the law is saying, and I disagree with the law.

"You are right that something someone does or says can, at times, be found to create a hostile environment based upon the other (affected) party's interpretation." Exactly, and this is the problem with the law. It allows somebody else to interpret my act, regardless of my intentions, as hostile to them, and it therefore gives them the right to veto my actions simply on the basis of how they feel about them.

Let's say that I wear a bra to work. Jack hates it and he complains. I'm breaking the law because I've created a hostile environment for Jack. But Joe's cool with it, so I'm not breaking the law because I haven't created a hostile environment for Joe.

The same act is legal or illegal, simply depending on how some random citizen/colleague feels about it. And that's poor law in my view. Rather we should look at the act in itself and decide if it's OK or bad, harmless or harmful, permissible or forbidden.

Nobody wants their property stolen, so we all agree that theft is harmful and we forbid it. But wearing a bra to work? Where's the harm in that? So why forbid it, just because somebody else doesn't like it? If Jack doesn't think a man should wear a bra, he doesn't have to wear one, and who's going to get upset about that? But Missy's act is harming no one, and giving someone the right to declare, "I don't like this, so you can't do it," gives everyone the right to butt into everybody else's private life and life-style. That's poor law in my view.

I think we agree with each other, Leann.

All the best, Annabelle.

[Melissa Rose]

Just the act of wearing a bra would not constitute creating a hostile work environment. Harassment or hostility is prohibited, but making others uncomfortable is not. If that was the case then some people's personalities could be considered creating a hostile work environment. There is a common sense component to work place harassment laws. It is usually worded using the terms "usually" or "normally" and often societal norms are used as a guideline. It is there with the intention to prevent trivial or unreasonable complaints from being used. It is a gray area, thus the reason some cases end up in court. I don't like snakes, but I can't reasonably claim harassment or hostility if someone wears a shirt or has a calendar in their cubicle depicting snakes. If they brought a live snake into work and it would be in my presence then I could possibly claim a hostile work environment if I voiced a complaint about my fear of snakes and the snake was not related to the work done at the company.

IMHO, a better approach instead of going right for a legal solution is try to work out a compromise. Perhaps offering to wear clothing where the bra is not readily visible or noticeable is something everyone can live with. There is probably some type of solution or compromise everyone can comfortably and easily agree with. Speaking from experience as a long time manager, if you jump immediately to a legal solution, you will be a marked person for the rest of your tenure at that work site, and branded as a troublemaker and difficult. While it is not fair and often misguided, there are legal ways to deal with problem employees and in ways free from entanglements with the original issue. It is a form of retaliation, but it can be done so it is transparent. It may not involving firing you, but it could cost you promotions, better work assignments and other perks. Finding a compromise is a much better solution and one that will not create so many bad feeling and emotions. Your manager or employer is wrong, but try to work it out first. Know and exercise your rights, but use legal means as a last resort and make sure it is a battle you want to fight.

[Chickhe]

This is why you should never answer a question that is not related to work to a co-worker. You should always respond in a very friendly way, "Why are you asking me a question like that?". This allows the person who thinks you are doing something wrong the opportunity to express themselves....you then record in email or on paper, the date, time and place and exactly what the person said. This can then be used to justify your case later, if the problems happen a second time. Also, do not agrue with anyone, just tell them you do not feel comfortable discussing your choice of underwear with them.

...with your manager... you must respond by saying how deeply offended that they and your coworker have made a comment about your choice of underwear and copy HR if your manager doesn't change their tune. I would probably leave the bra at home until the dust settles (it shows good will on your part...it doesn't mean you are wrong). The funny thing about the term 'hositle work environment', is it is a legal term used to describe what an employer does to a an employee....its not employee to employee and it doesn't go employee to work place. ...basically, they are bending the laws for their own purpose and that is a big no no in discrimination law.

[DonnaT]

Although there have been a couple of District or Circuit Courts to support trans rights, these courts do not have precident setting decisions over other distrct courts. Kansas is under the 10th US District Court.

In Kansas, a hostile work environment exists when an employer maintains an overly sexual work environment. Your employer's allowing or not allowing you to wear a bra does not create a hostile work environment for your coworkers or you.

Also, in Kansas, it's illegal for an employer to terminate an employee for reasons not contained in the employment contract, if one exists.

Legally, however, you wouldn't have any support outside a long (many years?) court battle.

If you wish to continue to wear a bra, then I suggest getting a doctor to provide a medical reason, if possible.

[Marleena]

Missy, it sounds like you have a hostile coworker, and now your boss. It's probably best to comply with his wishes but if you comply and are let go from your job it is best to have this documented. It will become a legal matter if it plays out that way. I have no idea what laws in your workplace and geographical area are.

[BRANDYJ]

This is not going to be a popular response, but it's how I feel about it. If you "need" a bra for support I might fell differently. But if you are a crossdresser and not going through transition as would a transsexual, then I can only assume you wore it because you like to underdress for the many various reasons that a crossdresser might feel right about it. I also assume you otherwise were presenting as a male. I don't blame any employer for not wanting a male to wear a bra under his male clothes and create discomfort among other employees, or worse yet, that employer's customers should your job require you to interact in person with them. I am a crossdresser and even I as an employer would ask you not to wear a bra under your male clothes where other employees or my customers and clients can be made uncomfortable around a man wearing a bra. Do as you wish, dress the way you wish, but not in the work place. I sometimes underdress in panties at work, but no one is ever going to see them, so that's different. I feel every employer has the right (or should have), to employee only those that represent the business in a professional manor. A man wearing a visible bra distracts not only other employees, but the potential loss of business to those that think it's weird, strange or some sort of sexual kink.
I value my job, my being accepted by all employees, customers and the employer to much to risk wearing a bra or any other garment that can be detected easily. It is not considered acceptable behavior in our general society, so it is improper to wear a bra when at work and dressed as a man when your outer clothes is thin enough, see thru enough to let it show or see the outline of a bra. Any male that would do this is being very foolish in my opinion. Why do some of us think we have the right to force our kinks or lifestyle on others that don't like it or don't understand? Again, if you are a transitioning TS and the topic was discussed before hand with the employer, then and only then would I agree with all this lawyer and sue nonsense.
I don't force my choice of clothes on anyone that may be offended or made to feel uncomfortable around me. Yes I do care what others think...sorry.
If you can't be fired for wearing the bra, a smart employer can concoct other reasons to let you go. If you did not conform with my wishes as an employer, I know I would.

[Stephenie S]

Yeah. I agree. Leave the darn bra at home. Is it really worth it? Why bother with all that animosity?

Stephie

[Miranda-E]

Someone in the workplace makes unwelcome comments or questions about a workers underwear and the boss supports it, and people thinks its ok.
This is exactly why the OP needs an attorney and a dated filed complaint to prove retaliation if fired at a later date.
Its that or cower in the closet, other are no other options.

[Raychel Torn]

Several people have done a good job of outlining the law in your situation. But just to make it clear. You can not be found to have created a hostile work place by underdressing or otherwise expressing your sexuality in a way that is not aimed at others (underdressing clearly is not). Just because someone else is offended by your actions does not mean you have created an hostile work place. Point of fact, the complain and order for your to stop is a step moving in the direction of creating a hostile work place for you. So, even if your co-workers "feel violated" so long as you are only expressing your personal sexual identity in a way that is not directed at another person "YOU" are the person who is having hostility directed at them and YOUR rights are the ones being violated. I will bet my law degree on this one.

[LeannL]

Raychel,
You are absolutely correct. I have been trying to convey the same. The question here is not if Missy is creating a hostile environment - she isn't. The question is if the courts would find what her boss and coworkers are creating one. Now, as has been pointed out, Kansas is not in the 11th circuit, however, at least three other circuits have concluded the same. The conclusion was based on Supreme Court ruling on Price Waterhouse which was discussed by the 11th circuit thusly:


The question here is whether discriminating against someone on the basis of his or her gender non-conformity constitutes sex-based discrimination under the Equal Protection Clause. For the reasons discussed below, we hold that it does. In Price Waterhouse v. Hopkins, 490 U.S. 228 (1989), the Supreme Court held that discrimination on the basis of gender stereotype is sex-based discrimination. In that case, the Court considered allegations that a senior manager at Price Waterhouse was denied partnership in the firm because she was considered “macho,” and “overcompensated for being a woman.” Id. at 235. Six members of the Supreme Court agreed that such comments were indicative of gender discrimination and held that Title VII barred not just discrimination because of biological sex, but also gender stereotyping–failing to act and appear according to expectations defined by gender. Id. at 250-51 (plurality opinion); id. at 258-61 (White, J., concurring); id. at 272-73 (O'Connor, J., concurring). The Court noted that “[a]s for the legal relevance of sex stereotyping, we are beyond the day when an employer could evaluate employees by assuming or insisting that they matched the stereotypes associated with their group . . . .” Id. at 251.


I read the above, and more importantly several appeals courts read it to include transgenderism.

I agree with the suggestion that Missy see a professional to document her transgendered nature so that she is legally covered. I would also suggest she seek a conciliatory meeting with HR and either bring the documention or offer to bring it at a later date (seeing that you don't normally get such a letter until you need it, the wait would be expected.) We should all avoid litigation (unless you are a lawyer) but it always has to be the back up plan.

Leann

[Beth Mays]

I am a Teamster job steward, I wear nail polish, an ear ring and other items under my "Brown". My boss HATES these beyond words, BUT. not a damn thing he can do about them. I am out to a few guys thanks to my wife posting twice on my Facebook page, and to the women in the office by my choice.
many states are an "employment at will" basically that says unless you CAN prove discrimination you can be let go at any time.
Contract spells out what we can and can not do in many things, it also protects us from the BS just because management don't like it.
I would first go to HR and ask for a written copy of the dress code, I would give a written account of what happen and ask HR to make a copy and sign both with the date and time. This one act will convey you mean business. as soon as you walk out of HR phones WILL start to ring.
If you want to keep this job, don't give in now or they WILL find something to let you go for in a couple of weeks or a month. Should you ever be confronted by your boss/supervisor ever again, as soon as it starts respond " would you please just put it on paper for me. If you show you know your rights, you will get to keep your rights… give them up and they will never come back.

[MovieTheaterLad]

I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense.

"OH GOD! THAT GUY IS WEARING A BRA! HOW WILL AAAAAANYBODY GET THERE WORK DONE!"

But as was said before, if you don't really need it, there's no point in wearing it. The panties shouldn't be a problem.

[sandra-leigh]

If you "need" a bra for support I might fell differently. But if you are a crossdresser and not going through transition as would a transsexual, then I can only assume you wore it because you like to underdress for the many various reasons that a crossdresser might feel right about it. [...] even I as an employer would ask you not to wear a bra under your male clothes where other employees or my customers and clients can be made uncomfortable around a man wearing a bra.

Brandy,

Let me think... My breasts are firm enough that I do not need a bra for support. And whether or not I am transsexual (possible, but not how I classify myself), I am not going through "transition".

It would seem, then, from you posting, that if I wore a bra, it would be just because I "liked to", and that in your opinion I should refrain from doing so where my co-workers or clients might feel uncomfortable.

I would suggest to you that my not wearing a bra is more disconcerting to the average person, seeing as without a bra, my shirts are tented visibly, showing what is clearly a bust. I would probably measure around 40A+ or so; in terms of volume, my bust is larger than my wife's 36B+ . Mine are "teenage boobs", conical and protruding, not rounded.

When I wear a bra, the bra smooths down the cones and redistributes downward without providing any lift, thus hiding my bust. Fewer people are going to notice the bra outline than will notice the bra-less outline in my shirts.

By the way, if you were my supervisor where I worked, and you were to ask me not to wear a bra, I would snicker and tell you to take it up with HR. I already checked with our HR, and the only clothing rule for us is that if we are doing a task for which there is safety equipment, we have to wear that equipment.

One of our two HR people is a pretty and nubile woman with a penchant for showing her cleavage. Lord knows it is difficult for me to work with her without spending most of my time either looking at it or thinking about looking at her. HRT hasn't damped my enjoyment of such views one bit -- and, of course, I spend even more time studying out of envy or wishing I looked like that! Interferes with my doing my work, it does :D

[Vickie_CDTV]

Unless the person asking is a close friend, never ever answer a question like that. There are previous posts here about sexual harassment that shed light on this; even though she was the one who asked, given she is a woman I wouldn't hold one's breath that she would be the one to be bought up on charges.

Could you *imagine* the hell and damnation that would come down on a man who complained to his boss that a female coworker (even a large breasted one) was not wearing a bra?

Regardless, since the economy is plummeting towards oblivion and you probably need that job badly, I'd leave the bra at home and keep the job.

[BRANDYJ]

Brandy,

Let me think... My breasts are firm enough that I do not need a bra for support. And whether or not I am transsexual (possible, but not how I classify myself), I am not going through "transition".

It would seem, then, from you posting, that if I wore a bra, it would be just because I "liked to", and that in your opinion I should refrain from doing so where my co-workers or clients might feel uncomfortable.

I would suggest to you that my not wearing a bra is more disconcerting to the average person, seeing as without a bra, my shirts are tented visibly, showing what is clearly a bust. I would probably measure around 40A+ or so; in terms of volume, my bust is larger than my wife's 36B+ . Mine are "teenage boobs", conical and protruding, not rounded.

When I wear a bra, the bra smooths down the cones and redistributes downward without providing any lift, thus hiding my bust. Fewer people are going to notice the bra outline than will notice the bra-less outline in my shirts.

By the way, if you were my supervisor where I worked, and you were to ask me not to wear a bra, I would snicker and tell you to take it up with HR. I already checked with our HR, and the only clothing rule for us is that if we are doing a task for which there is safety equipment, we have to wear that equipment.

One of our two HR people is a pretty and nubile woman with a penchant for showing her cleavage. Lord knows it is difficult for me to work with her without spending most of my time either looking at it or thinking about looking at her. HRT hasn't damped my enjoyment of such views one bit -- and, of course, I spend even more time studying out of envy or wishing I looked like that! Interferes with my doing my work, it does :D

In your case, from what you say, you do need to wear a bra to hide the protruding breasts. So you do have a reason without it being just for your pleasure. But if you want to hide the visable signs of the effects of HRT, I would think you have the good sense to wear something that will minimize the lines of your bra.

[linda allen]

I have to wonder what kind of place you are working at where women can wear bras but men cannot. Is there a dress code and does it actually cover underwear?

Does your boss reserve the right to force employees to undress so he (or she) can inspect their underwear?

On the otherhand, sometimes, to get along at work and have the chance to be promoted or to not be the first one layed off, you have to "get along", so it might be best to leave the bra home for a while.

[Foxglove]

Hello, Brandy. If I could ask you one question about your post, specifically this statement:



If you can't be fired for wearing the bra, a smart employer can concoct other reasons to let you go. If you did not conform with my wishes as an employer, I know I would.

I take it that you're saying that if you can't legally fire someone, you'd concoct a reason to do so. That is, you'd employ an artful dodge, so to speak, that would allow you to deny someone what is after all their legal right. Do you really think that's right?

Best wishes, Annabelle.

[linda allen]

Hello, Brandy. If I could ask you one question about your post, specifically this statement:
I take it that you're saying that if you can't legally fire someone, you'd concoct a reason to do so. That is, you'd employ an artful dodge, so to speak, that would allow you to deny someone what is after all their legal right. Do you really think that's right?.

Different jobs have different circumstances and different states treat employee "rights" differently. Imagine this: I own a service company. Plumbing, electrical, appliance repair, something along these lines and I send my employees out to people's houses to do service work. It's not hard to imagine some of the customers being uncomfortable with a male technician dressed in female clothing, makeup, etc. And they may call and complain or they may just use another company the next time they need service.

The employee may have a legal right to dress as a female, but if I allow him to, it will cost me business and possibly put me out of business. I'm going to have to either get him to dress as people expect or find a way to get rid of him to protect my business and the jobs of the other employees.

[Julogden]

Different jobs have different circumstances and different states treat employee "rights" differently. Imagine this: I own a service company. Plumbing, electrical, appliance repair, something along these lines and I send my employees out to people's houses to do service work. It's not hard to imagine some of the customers being uncomfortable with a male technician dressed in female clothing, makeup, etc. And they may call and complain or they may just use another company the next time they need service.

The employee may have a legal right to dress as a female, but if I allow him to, it will cost me business and possibly put me out of business. I'm going to have to either get him to dress as people expect or find a way to get rid of him to protect my business and the jobs of the other employees.
So what would you do if you had hired someone who was black or Hispanic or Asian and you started getting complaints from several customers who were racists, complaining that they didn't like having your employee in their homes and won't use your services anymore if you send black, Hispanic or Asian workers to their home? You start losing a significant amount of business. What would you do in that circumstance?

Carol

[SandraAbsent]

This is the second time in this forum tonight that I have posted something to the regards of taking into consideration the challenges we within the TG umbrella create for others by our actions.

Yes you violated no law by under-dressing, yes you violated no law by admitting to it, but by not sitting down and having a logical discussion with your employer about this issue once the immediate shock is over and jumping on the "get a lawyer to defend my rights" wagon, you create an open door for further discrimination and/or humiliation. Sit down with your boss/HR and discuss this on a deeper level before going off half loaded. Document it, and only if no resolution is found should legal action be considered. This is the best way to protect yourself not only from discrimination or worse loss of income.

I know I may be controversial by saying this, but when someone decides to under-dress or sneak dressing in on breaks (example), they are taking a huge risk. By most this peoples viewpoint this would be viewed differently than a situation where an out or discovered outside of work transsexual/transgender employee is discriminated against. I just spent the last month of my life coming out to my employers, co-workers, and clients. If I had just showed up one day in dress with no discussion, I would never feel that I had the right to not be scrutinized for this action.

So here we go right? If something like this action does end up in court, the result is precious resources lost on both sides, and the side of the courts spent trying to resolve something that really comes down to a $10 garment. Can you live without that garment? If yes dont do it, and dont risk a tender legal situation that is being waged for those that are trying to gain serious legislation for the transgender community. If no, see a therapist to guide you through your gender issues so that you do not put yourself at risk emotionally, psychologically, or financially with your gender issues. Again please, please, please everyone! Consider how your actions weigh against others they may affect.

[BRANDYJ]

Hello, Brandy. If I could ask you one question about your post, specifically this statement:



I take it that you're saying that if you can't legally fire someone, you'd concoct a reason to do so. That is, you'd employ an artful dodge, so to speak, that would allow you to deny someone what is after all their legal right. Do you really think that's right?

Best wishes, Annabelle.


Yes, that's what I'm saying IF any employee of mine was doing anything that would cuase a loss of business or disrupt the workl place in such a way that it hurt my buisiness.
They may have a legal right to wear what they want. But If I was a business owner, I have a right to protect my business. That's all I hear is somebody's rights, ACLU, lawyers and suing. Common sense is lost. When any one person thinks their rights to ignore common sense mode of dress and make fellow employes and customers/clients uncomfortable and ruin the productivity and profitability of a business, then I am questioning where are therights of a business owner? Remember, we are talking about a crossdresser and NOT a transsexual. The wearing of a bra would be acceptable and normal for a transitioning TS that also presents as a female. But IO draw the line at a crossdresser wearing one just because he wants to flaunt his crossdressing activities to the worls at the work place.
Like I said with my first response....may opinion would not be popular. But where is common sense, good taste and appropriate dress at work become a legal issue? So yes, If such a person that worked for me presenting as a male, other then his lack of self control and good taste felt the need to wear a bra that showed to fellow employess and my customers, he is out the door one way or the other.
Don't forget, I am a crossdresser, but I damn sure have self control and better sense then to wear a bra and to hell with other's feelings about it in a business envirorment.

[MissMarcie]

Time to lawyer up. Call the ACLU and get their advice. Even if you have decided to take no action it is best to have this on the record in case. The company does something to you later. It appears that you have a strong case for harrasment, discrimination and a hostile work environment.
Get real. Kansas is a right to work state. Kansas ain't California. This person will be sent packing and have no recourse whatsoever. Some woman says she was threatened, that's all it would take.

[Foxglove]

Yes, that's what I'm saying IF any employee of mine was doing anything that would cuase a loss of business or disrupt the workl place in such a way that it hurt my buisiness.
They may have a legal right to wear what they want. But If I was a business owner, I have a right to protect my business. That's all I hear is somebody's rights, ACLU, lawyers and suing. Common sense is lost. When any one person thinks their rights to ignore common sense mode of dress and make fellow employes and customers/clients uncomfortable and ruin the productivity and profitability of a business, then I am questioning where are therights of a business owner? Remember, we are talking about a crossdresser and NOT a transsexual. The wearing of a bra would be acceptable and normal for a transitioning TS that also presents as a female. But IO draw the line at a crossdresser wearing one just because he wants to flaunt his crossdressing activities to the worls at the work place.
Like I said with my first response....may opinion would not be popular. But where is common sense, good taste and appropriate dress at work become a legal issue? So yes, If such a person that worked for me presenting as a male, other then his lack of self control and good taste felt the need to wear a bra that showed to fellow employess and my customers, he is out the door one way or the other.
Don't forget, I am a crossdresser, but I damn sure have self control and better sense then to wear a bra and to hell with other's feelings about it in a business envirorment.

Brandy, I understand your point of view. You're living in the real world, and so am I. You're concerned, e.g., with what your other employees and your clients and customers would feel about it. That I understand. But what I say is that at the end of the day someone's underwear isn't their business, either. Whatever their own personal feelings in the matter, they don't have the moral right to prevent someone else from doing something that's harmless in itself, simply because they themselves don't like it. This is the way minorities get controlled: I don't like it, therefore you can't do it. People need to be more accepting and tolerant. I understand that often we aren't. But if you were tell me, "You can't wear your clothes because my customers wouldn't like it," my question would be, "Well, what gives them the right to tell me how to dress?" I know as well as you do what people are like, but do I forever have to agree not to enjoy a legal right simply because other people don't want me to exercise it? I believe in common sense, too, but I believe in people being fair to each other.

You've also said that we're talking about a crossdresser, not a transsexual, as if a crossdresser's need might be less than a transsexual's. I don't know that that's true. I'm not sure exactly what category I fall into, nor do I know how strong my need is compared to others', but I'd like to have the right to decide for myself rather than allowing someone else to decide for me.

One problem with this whole discussion is that Missy has really given us very little information about the circumstances. You said, for example, something about "flaunting his crossdressing tendencies." We don't know that she was flaunting them. We don't know how visible her bra was. I myself quite often go out wearing a bra, but I certainly don't flaunt it. Quite the opposite. But that doesn't mean that a bra can't be discovered if something goes wrong. Anything you're wearing can be discovered, given the wrong circumstances. I'd like to know more about the circumstances of the case.