"The Lie" (long post)

[LeaP]

I've read too many posts on this topic and decided it needed a focused thread of it own.

The topic is lying and the question is whether not disclosing crossdressing (e.g., before entering a permanent relationship) constitutes a lie in any way that is meaningful or helpful. By that last bit, I specifically wish to avoid narrow technical definitions, as by that standard every one of us are blatant liars for not disclosing everything we've ever done or thought.

The opening stipulation is that crossdressing is presumed to materially impact the SO personally and emotionally, the SO's view of the relationship itself as well as with the crossdresser, and constitute something the SO would have taken into consideration before commencing the relationship, had it been disclosed.

The other statement I'd make up front but isn't really a stipulation, is that the concept of lying critically depends on intent, that is to deliberately hide or deceive for self-centered reasons.

My answer to the question? It depends. Here are some examples:

"The Hobbyist"

In the case of the pure hobbyist who can take or leave dressing, who might be a bit embarrassed but otherwise views dressing as a harmless sidelight, the omission constitutes lying. The rationale is basically that there is little in the way of the disclosure and, when weighed against the SO's concerns, the latter so outweighs the crossdresser's concerns that the SO's take precedence. For the hobbyist to not disclose may actually indicate a basic lack of consideration for the relationship, if not for the SO.

"The Fetishist"

In the case of the fetishist, with or without a serious kink or commitment to the behavior, the omission constitutes lying. My take on this one is that it falls into the category of sexual taste, which is (or should be) a normal discussion point anyway as a relationship progresses. Moreover, as with the hobbyist, it is relatively harmless, assuming the fetish isn't extreme or pathological. Once again, the SO's concerns would trump a point of taste. A second point here is that a harmless fetish isn't typically threatening to the SO's lifestyle and expectations, certainly not in the same way that a disclosure of, say, transsexuality would be. People tolerate (or celebrate!) all kinds of things in the bedroom or for the sake of their sexual relationships.

"The Protector"

In the case of the person who consciously chooses not to disclose for the reason of (supposedly) protecting their SO, my very personal take is that this not only constitutes lying, but compounds the situation by adding several other issues, which I'll decline to list. The only one I will mention is that this motivation amounts to transference. As such, one can look at it as sort of delusional, which might change one's mind on the lying point, but my suspicion is that the protector stance is just too transparently self-serving. The few, true-blue protective situations aren't worth discussing, as they would just confuse the issue.

"The Closeted"

In the case of the deeply suppressed or conflicted transsexual or crossdresser (with or without gender identity issues), trans or cross-gendered people generally, and in the case of trans people coming to late-in-life realization, the omission is not a lie. (I've lumped all into "TG" in this section for notational convenience, with apologies to both the crossdressers who dislike the term as well as the TS population.) The essence of my argument is that the hiding is tied to survival, sometimes psychological, sometime physical, sometimes both. That alone trumps the SO's concerns, even recognizing their seriousness.

As an opening point, I hope it's obvious to all that TG people are often not aware at the start of the relationship. No awareness, no omission, and no lie.

In the case where the behavior results in purges, the TG person is convinced each and every time that the behavior is gone or that it's been dealt with, essentially through self-punishment and compartmentalization. I acknowledge the dissonant or delusional nature of this pattern, but the salient point is psychological inability, i.e., true denial. Further, psychologists have noted that denial often turns to hyper masculine behavior. I.e., rather than struggling to tell - the holding back that the SO suspects and which might constitute the liar's self-serving aspect - the TG person is actually, psychologically running in the other direction!

In the case of "simple" conflict, the issue is the depth of the conflict. The problem here is that cross-gender feelings and behavior are incredibly shameful. This is the case where the argument of trust and betrayal come up the most. Thing is, the denial is based more on the fear of loss for the sense of SELF and self-worth than for the loss of the SO. Something I once read comes to mind. Paraphrased, it was that trans people are "beyond queer," that even the LGB population doesn't really accept or understand them. Trust in or for the SO has nothing to do with the ongoing hiding. Rather, the hiding is deeply conditioned, often lifelong.

In the case where the TG "progresses" or emerges in the sense of self-realization unfolding (i.e., not progressing in the sense of one thing leading, as a consequence, to another), you might think there would be disclosure at some point, but it's really a variant on the basic conflict point, above. Trust in other contexts doesn't mitigate against psychological survival. This segues into suppression.

Suppression is not about hiding or holding back. Suppression is an unconscious reaction pushing away that which is unacceptable to one's sense of proper self. The TG person's psyche does not allow the forbidden feelings to co-exist with their daily life. There's always a consequence and it's usually depression and/or withdrawal. At its worst, people push away their real personalities and identities to such an extent that they are virtually unrecoverable without serious therapy. To suggest that a suppressed person is lying in not disclosing is absurd. In fact, a really deeply suppressed person might not even know what you are talking about until the point of realization and coming out.

Role expectations play a larger role (sic) than people think. Couples enter relationships with role expectations, whether explicitly understood or not. It is 100% impossible not to do so, as every culture and every last individual has gender role notions. (Hopefully THIS is inarguable, in this forum of all places, else the very notion of gender has to be discarded!) Relationship building depends, in large part, on identifying and finding commonalities. People do not focus on the outliers. In fact, the biology of attraction in the early phases is such that we minimize or dismiss them entirely, if we allow them to creep in at all. What's the pattern? "She's just like me!" "We think so much alike that we're almost the same person!" Love is a wonderful thing. It can change people and we always think that will apply to us. That nagging little dressing thing? Pshhh - doesn't matter a bit! Until we come down from the clouds. Sometimes that's a week after the honeymoon, but more likely years later and maybe after a child or two. By then, the role expectations are the subject of marital pressure and fights. Which leads to power issues.

Once in a relationship, the ongoing lack of disclosure plays into a couple's power dynamics. The very best illustration for this is the accusation of lying itself! Accusations by their nature have a strong aspect or assumption of moral superiority. It's bad enough that role pressure increases the TG's internal conflicts, pushing them further into the closet. Adding power struggles into the mix brings in other complications, including T-triggered anger and rage, and winds up driving cisgender behavior like aggression that plays into the typical TG self-loathing cycle.

For the TG person, disclosure itself - talking - raises a point few mention. TALKING about gender issues immerses the TG person full bore INTO their inner conflict. Dressing (and other closeted behaviors) by contrast, RELIEVE it. The closer to the surface that the discussion goes, the more the alarms go off. Talking about cross-gendered behaviors is felt by the TG as extremely risky. It can trigger panic, flight, fighting, withdrawal, and depression. Dressing is "in the zone," a coping mechanism. Talking is in the here and now and the TG person knows (or fears) exactly where surfacing the issue before the time is right leads - to personal destruction, no matter how conceived.

There's an additional point related to risk that also goes unrecognized by most SOs: that they are the riskiest people of all to talk to because they matter the most! That's a weird kind of validation, but it happens to be true. As a result, the lie accusation cuts to the heart.

I have a functional objection to the lie accusation in that what underlies suppression and hiding is shame and guilt. What does the accusation trigger? Shame and guilt! The TG goes immediately to psychological defense, i.e., exactly where it started. The SO disconnects. Things get worse immediately.

My summation for the closeted category - for the TG person - is that to term lack of disclosure a lie is to utterly and completely miss the point of what's really going on. It's also a one-sided misrepresentation, itself based on personal need. There's an entitlement aspect to it. Strip away the emotion attendent to the situation and you'll find a SO who is at one of two poles: non-understanding or disgusted. The first is understandable. The second is behind comments to the effect that the SO would have run in the other direction if the situation were known

I do understand where the impression of lying comes from. I do understand the feelings of betrayal. I understand the concern for the relationship and for self. The reactions and emotions are real. Properly, those feelings belong to the post-disclosure period before one understands the realities. At that point humanity and empathy should prevail as regards the disclosure question itself.

Understanding, of course, has nothing whatsoever to do with any issues consequent to the disclosure. The relationship still might not survive or be wanted. Lives may be wasted or devastated. There might be fallout with children and family. Nothing, however, changes the fact that the disclosure can't happen before it can happen. And it's exactly the same with many similar things in life, from eating disorders, to adoption, abuse, psychological issues, learning disabilities, birth defects, and a hundred other things. All of which, by the way, are extended a level of heartfelt empathy of which those with gender issues can only dream. Beyond queer indeed.

The notion that lack of disclosure for the closeted is a lie is, well, a lie.

Your turn.

Lea

[DebbieL]

The real issue is why we have to lie in the first place.

The secret isn't all that serious, and often, people guess our little secret long before we are ready to tell them, but they don't want us to feel threatened.

The problem is that dressing and gender issues are so important to us that we are not only not willing or able to give it up because it's such an integral part of our personality, and at the same time, we cannot trust our girl-friend, lover, spouse, with a secret which to us is so important and to them may seem really trivial.

The bigger problem is that we often go way too far in the lie. Some try to over-compensate for their feminine side by being ultra-masculine in public, and in dating, and even in marriage. If our GF/ Lover/ Spouse fell in love with "Mr Macho" and wanted that right wing conservative alpha male, she is not going to be at all happy when we tell her we'd like to wear satin panties, stockings, heels, skirts, and satin blouses, along with make-up and a wig.

On the other hand, if we let our feminine side show in subtle ways when were in "drab" mode, they are likely to be attracted to those feminine traits and may be only slightly put off when they find out that we want to wear the skirt in the family.

Many women rebelled against feminine stereotypes and the thought of wearing anything other than loose pants, comfortable shoes, and baggy sweatshirts or sweaters - makes them break out in hives. They probably find it inconceivable that we would want to wear the kinds of clothes they were forced to wear as kids, and couldn't wait to stop wearing when they were financially secure enough to do so.

The irony is that if we let our feminine side out from the very beginning, and own it, we tend to attract the kinds of women who actually like the idea of a man who like being the girl - whether it's once in a while, or all the time. If we know exactly where - around the bra line, to scratch, that gives such great relief, we'll be loved all the more.

The other thing a woman will often want to check for is whether a man ONLY wants the dress, or if he wants the whole package. For example, if he is a great cook, washes and folds the laundry, vacuums the house, and does the dishes, and wants to go out in a skirt and heels on a Friday or Saturday night, she might want to be our dance partner, and might even be willing to wear a suit, or her own skirt and heels.

On the other hand, if he can't lift a finger to clean, thinks cooking is sticking a hot-dog in the microwave, and won't even load the dishwasher, let alone wash a pot, and he wants to wear HER clothes - stretching them out of shape, because he doesn't want to buy his own, then it's quite likely that she might be much less receptive to his dressing.

The bigger problem is that often we have trouble being honest with ourselves. Do we really just want to dress in our bedrooms on a Saturday afternoon while everybody else is off at soccer practice, shopping, or doing whatever they want to do? Or, if they won the lottery tomorrow, would they want to pay the money and take the time off to change their sex and dress they way they really want to all the time?

Often, women are more perceptive about these things than we are ourselves. I could claim that I just wanted to dress up once in a while, but I knew from the time I was 6 years old that I wanted a sex change. I let circumstances and good reasons be my excuse for not making the transition, but at a more fundamental level, there was that secret fear that I might be unable to transition effectively, and that I might have to live the rest of my life as a man, or at least as a male.

When confronted with that reality, or that almost certain future, that I would have to spend the rest of my life trapped in a man's body, the mere thought of it brings up such despair that, at times, I have attempted to make that time trapped in a male body as short as possible.

For a transsexual, every day I put on boys clothes, or shave, or comb my hair, or do all the other things I have to do to "pass" as a male, is the ultimate in dishonesty. I have to pretend to be something I never wanted to be, to please people who wouldn't like me (or love me) if they know who I really was, and all to avoid consequences which I will probably have to deal with anyway.

How can one have integrity, authenticity, sincerity, honor, courage, and commitment, when every waking moment is spent in lies, pretending to be something I'm not, conning and sneaking, because I fear the reprisals, and it's easier to "go with the flow" than actually take a stand for the most important thing in my life.

When people meet Debbie, it's a shock. They are astonished at how much more alive I am, they see the courage it takes, there is no hiding out, no "blending in", I need to be 100% responsible for everything, how I react to others, how they react to me. I have to have compassion for their fears, respect for their acceptance, and gratitude for their love. They get to see me for who I really am, and they discover that Debbie is a completely different person, someone they want to know.

And yet, I am still willing to put on the baggy pants, the clown shoes, the baggy shirt that hides the curves, and the suit-coat that hides the curvy butt, and even strip off the nail polish, and get a short hair cut - just to avoid consequences that are the fears of a 6-9 year old boy.

Yes - that is the ultimate lie and the ultimate betrayal - of everyone I pretend to know and can't trust enough to reveal my true self.

[elizabethamy]

Wow, Lea. A lot to think about. Amazing post! For me there is an ongoing inner struggle about how much the SO needs to know/wants to know/can handle knowing...I live with my cd/tg issues 24-7 (in mind if not in body) and she has only a couple of hours when not working to think about everything, of which my situation is only one aspect. So to blurt everything at once is clearly a mistake, overwhelming, unfair...on the other hand, to withhold some of what I've done and know is perhaps a form of lying....one thinks about one's own survival, one's SO's mental/emotion state, and the state of the relationship. I like your categories, Lea, though I think it's possible that for most of us, much of the challenge is that we move between categories at different times.

I agree that "lying" should be an ongoing discussion. It's really, really fundamental to resolving the challenges we face.

elizabethamy

[Marleena]

I found this thread was well thought out. I cannot really add anything to it. I consider myself TG.

The only lie I was living was to myself.

The Big Lie that GG's often talk about is not a conspiracy, or anything intentional it is the CD/TG/TS coming to terms with the lie that they had been living. They finally found the truth to who they are.


If a CD/TG/TS enters into a relationship knowing full well who they are and don't tell their SO then it IS a lie.

Again I cannot speak for everybody...

[ArleneRaquel]

Very well stated Marleena! :)

[Lorileah]

I am staying with my stance that it is a lie. While I believe that some things that are done before you get into a relationship are best kept secret, this is not one of them.

I hope by the time you have decided to make a life together you have discussed many things. All these things give you insight into your partners feelings and ideas. You discuss children for example. You discuss lifestyle I am sure. You discuss food, you know they like certain things and they dislike others. You know ahead of time that they are vegan, vegetarian or if they only eat certain meats. You know basically their religion. You may not understand that religion but you know they have certain beliefs. They like a color, flower, region of the world. Some of these are immensely important to the relationship. You know she won't wear yellow. No big deal. You know she likes daffodils over roses. Yo know she won't eat beef. All these things have a bearing on you. Maybe you can't be with her because she doesn't like dogs (or you don't). You negotiate things like that. Is it an absolute or is it negotiable.

Now I know, nothing stays the same and that both sides believe they can change for you or you will change for them. That is all part of the ritual. Being perfectly suitable would be a one in a million deal. We all know that in the beginning he opens the door and she wears sexy clothing. We all understand that will wane. Maybe not quite "givens" but "almost certains".

One out of two will not make the "forever" but that is an assumption usually also. And when you assume a "forever" you assume a certain amount of equity in a situation. This equity builds with time. It is monetary and it is emotional equity. Monetary you see. You get the house, the car, the 2.3 children and all that goes with parenthood. The emotional equity is different. You become comfortable. You assume that certain things will stay certain. You come home and expect food, shelter, the comfort of a family. You share this. Over time emotional equity outweighs monetary equity. You have your equity, she has hers. You both see each other in a specific light. I am not talking about you lose your hair, she changes her color thing. I am talking about seeing the inner person. Yes it is a fairytale for both of you. But it is a foundation you have.

This foundation isn't rock slid in some cases. You have a religion, she doesn't like that religion but thinks with time that won't matter and then somehow she breaks a tenet of that religion in your life. It will shake the relationship and how you handle it will make or break your life. Can you live with the change? Maybe, maybe not. Change the religion part to anything that one or the other thinks is a bedrock part of your foundation, sex, drugs, rock and roll, sushi...whatever. The thing is in most cases you know basically what the other believes early on. When you don't have a lot of emotional (and I don't mean the emotion of early head over heels love...more the deep love) equity, it is easy to discuss, negotiate or walk away. It is harder when you hide a part away that you know (or strongly believe) they can't or won't agree with. Maybe it is how many times you were married before. Would this NOT be important? Maybe you had a child. Don't you think maybe that could be important or would you rather wait to see if said child shows up on your doorstep? It is part of the basis of the relationship.

I agree that the "hobbiest" may not really be a stone in the foundation. If you can give up the Corvette (True story one of my friends was given the ultimatum of the car or the woman...bye bye car) and even though you may have a twinge of regret later but you KNOW before you get in deep, then it is OK. The fetishist doesn't know if they will out grow it, but most do. Everything else you have a deep feeling about. And in the course of dating you watch Mrs Doubtfire,, Too Wong Foo or you see a drag show, you know how your partner reacts. If she says "it is wrong" you know that and you make the decision. The decision should be to negotiate or walk away so that each of you have a chance to make a life later. But you know.

Maybe I have lived a charmed life but in the case of TGism, it was discussed early. It always will be. However, those were not the issues that came up later. These issues were hurtful when they came up and unfortunately they were brought up on the loss of my partners. Things that I would have liked to know. Things that I believe would not have changed the relationship but they though would. The point is I was not given the chance to decide on my own, it was decided for me. Would it have changed anything? It would have changed the dynamics of the relationship, thus yes things would be different. In may case I wouldn't want to change that dynamic but the point is that I was kept from making that decision. I was not trusted enough to make that decision. The reason may have been a protective one but it came out anyway and that hits you like a sucker punch. A male friend of mine asked me last week if the ache in my stomach had gone away. He still has his ache 20 years after his divorce.

So yes it is a lie, albeit a lie by omission, when you know that it will effect your SO in some way. There may be some out there who prefer a don't ask don't tell but you should allow them the chance to make that decision and to be able to make it early before you build up equity.

[Marleena]

Good points Lorileah. I missed the part about entering into a relationship knowing who you are and hiding it from your SO.

I edited my own post accordingly.

[Genifer Teal]

I do understand where the impression of lying comes from. I do understand the feelings of betrayal. I understand the concern for the relationship and for self. The reactions and emotions are real.

Your above statement trumps all logic in this matter. Feelings can not be explained away. We don't get to tell anyone else how they should feel. Hiding something may not hold up in court as a lie but when it comes to courtship and relationships, feelings are the presiding factor. If you hide something from your mate, expect it to matter some day.

[Raychel Torn]

Lea,

This is a great post. Well done!!!!!!

[Kelly DeWinter]

Lea

I am really surprised at this thread, despite the well thought out construction of your thred, what you are really saying is that with the right justification that lying is OK.

"..... The other statement I'd make up front but isn't really a stipulation, is that the concept of lying critically depends on intent, that is to deliberately hide or deceive for self-centered reasons.

My answer to the question? It depends. "


The one thing that GG's post time and time again is that being lied to and decieved makes them feel like the relationship has been false and that 'what else' has been lied about.

There was a infamous president who went on national tv AND TRIED TO JUSTIFY LYING and we know how that turned out:

"Years from now, when we look back on Bill Clinton's presidency, its defining moment may well be Clinton's rationalization to the grand jury about why he wasn't lying when he said to his top aides that with respect to Monica Lewinsky, "there's nothing going on between us." How can this be? Here's what Clinton told the grand jury (according to footnote 1,128 in Starr's report):
"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the--if he--if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement....Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true." "

So don't try to give people a reason for their character flaws, that with a little effort can be fixed.

[Barbara Ella]

It is possible to go so deeply into the psychology of individual situations that cases can always be made that something is not a lie or is a lie because there is justification to one level or another. This post is a good one, and opens the discussion into these levels, which is good. I certainly lack the psychological insight to go into a deep discussion, and it will fall on each individual to make up their mind about the guilt they are willing to take on themselves. In my mind, regardless of the situation, if you feel you should tell but the consequences are too great, it is still a lie. It may be understandable, but it is still a lie.

Babes

[LeaP]

Lea

I am really surprised at this thread, despite the well thought out construction of your thred, what you are really saying is that with the right justification that lying is OK.
...
So don't try to give people a reason for their character flaws, that with a little effort can be fixed.

Not at all. What I've tried to do is draw a distinction between those who are psychologically blocked from those who intentionally deceive. I have no sympathy for the latter. Aside from pointing out the seriousness of the former, I've also pointed gently to a few reasons why disclosure isn't forthcoming once IN a relationship - suggesting that it's not as one-sided as some would have it. Finally, my categories are exactly what I said they were: examples. They are neither comprehensive nor mutually exclusive. They are thought exercises to drive discussion of cause and motivation.

Fact is, lots of crossdressers are bold-faced liars, solely responsible for the lies, selfish, and culpable for the damage the lies cause. I just don't think the concept fits the more serious suppression and identity struggle cases.

Lea


... it will fall on each individual to make up their mind about the guilt they are willing to take on themselves. In my mind, regardless of the situation, if you feel you should tell but the consequences are too great, it is still a lie.

This is well-put and I agree with you.

On guilt, I'll repeat what I've said in the past. No-one takes on guilt easier or faster than a crossdresser. On-topic, that means some can be guilted into confessing a lie even in cases where there no such intent or even knowledge!

Lea

[Marleena]

The Cder does not really know they are one? In my case I was an underdresser off and on for decades with the usual guilt feelings and purgings. I truly thought I could turn it off and on at will, or do without it. Only recently did the light bulb go off and I realized I was actually TG. When I realized that I told my wife and hoped for the best.

What about the new members that don't know what's going on and think it will go away or it's a fetish? In some cases it may be just a fetish or turnon. I truly believe some CDer's think they can control it or it will go away until it hits like a ton of bricks. If it happens during a marriage or long term relationship is it still considered the Big Lie? I'm sure it can happen. We were taught at an early age CDing is wrong so we hide and deny it

Since we are mostly hidden and isolated there really is nobody to tell us we are CD/TG/TS unless something defining happens in our lives or we seek out a gender therapist.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Not at all. What I've tried to do is draw a distinction between those who are psychologically blocked from those who intentionally deceive. I have no sympathy for the latter. Aside from pointing out the seriousness of the former, I've also pointed gently to a few reasons why disclosure isn't forthcoming once IN a relationship - suggesting that it's not as one-sided as some would have it. Finally, my categories are exactly what I said they were: examples. They are neither comprehensive nor mutually exclusive. They are thought exercises to drive discussion of cause and motivation.

Fact is, lots of crossdressers are bald-faced liars, solely responsible for the lies, selfish, and culpable for the damage the lies cause. I just don't think the concept fits the more serious suppression and identity struggle cases.

Lea

Again you proport the "The Hobbyst","The Protector" have reason for lying. Its the character of the person. No, lots of 'crossdressers' are NOT bald-faced liars, are you seriusly suggesting thers a corrolation between crossdressing and lying ? People lie, not clothing, it's stereotyping at it's worse.

[LeaP]

Yes - that is the ultimate lie and the ultimate betrayal - of everyone I pretend to know and can't trust enough to reveal my true self.

Thank you for such a personal account, Debbie. My response isn't to your comments on lies so much as on survival. I wonder how many would stick a hand out with the knowledge that they had a 75% chance of it being chopped off - whatever the reward if it were not. The fears may be rooted in the inner 6 year-old, but they have a hard reality. Transwomen lose family, are beaten and abused, lose jobs, live in poverty, and commit suicide at extraordinary rates. If survival is the necessary mode for you, then do whatever it takes to survive first.

Lea


Again you proport the "The Hobbyst","The Protector" have reason for lying. Its the character of the person. No, lots of 'crossdressers' are NOT bald-faced liars, are you seriusly suggesting thers a corrolation between crossdressing and lying ? People lie, not clothing, it's stereotyping at it's worse.

Kelly, I apologize, but I don't understand your response.

I characterized the hobbyist and protector types as unjustified (i.e., lying). Again, these aren't hard categories or types, but examples. I can easily construct other scenarios, even in a serious suppression case where omission would be a deliberate, deceptive lie. I agree it depends on the individual, their character, their psyche, their circumstances, their risks. Case by case.

I'm not suggesting that crossdressing per se has any causal relationship to lying. What I AM suggesting, based on my reading of the forum, is that lots of men hide deliberately regardless of rationale. I'm guessing here, but it seems that most of the people on the forum are not out to their SO's, and the majority of them seem to fall into the more casual crossdresser categories. Assuming that's actually true, what do you call their omission?

Lea



So yes it is a lie, albeit a lie by omission, when you know that it will effect your SO in some way. There may be some out there who prefer a don't ask don't tell but you should allow them the chance to make that decision and to be able to make it early before you build up equity.

This, I think, encapsulates the heart of your post (emphasis, however, is mine), and I largely agree with it. I appreciate the thought you put into such an extended reply, Lorileah. The concept of equity to convey the weight and importance of accumulated emotional investment is excellent.

Lea

[jillleanne]

I would like to acknowledge a well written thread Lea. You have taken alot of your time to try to express your interpretation of 'THE LIE' and for that you have my respect.
I will keep my opinion on this as simple as possible. I like many once lived THE LIE.

THE LIE: Ones own inability to tell someone that loves you, trusts you, and respects, or depends on you to the point whereby THE LIE has any negative impact on that relationship regardless of the severity. You , the liar do not neccessarily have to love, trust, or respect or depend on the other person at any time during the relationship. THE LIE itself is indifferent to the relationship, it remain THE LIE. THE LIE by definition, is not exclusive to gender issues and no matter where THE LIE remains, it remains THE LIE.
Example: You call in sick for work because something else came up. It's a lie.
You are 49 but tell someone you are 45. It's a lie.
You KNOW you have gender issues that might affect your relationship with others but fail to mention it at the beginning. It's a lie.
I personally do not know anyone that has gender/fetish/bdsm, etc. issues that do not know they have gender/fetish/bdsm. etc. issues but I suppose they could be out there. I do contend however, ANYONE, that expresses any form of gender self expression behind closed doors without sharing that knowledge with someone connected in some way to them, KNOWS they have gender expression issues, and therefore, live THE LIE.
So, how important really is THE LIE in the long run? That, depends on the individual that has to live THE LIE, how happy and content they can be every single day of their life, how accepting they can be of themselves knowing they live THE LIE, how happy they would be in a relationship if the roles were reversed and the spouse lived THE LIE only later to be disclosed, how important any kind of honest relationship that person decides to engage in, and how much that individual loves, respects, etc. the people in the relationship. It's a personal call but until the information is shared, it remains THE LIE.

It's quite easy to justify in one's own mind why they continue to live THE LIE; I read it every day somewhere which always seems to translate into excuses born primarily from fear, shame, pride, etc. What I do not read every day however, is the truth and the truth is what the s/o would prefer from day one in the relationship and has a right to. Additionally, they also have a right to THE LIE.

[Frédérique]

I do understand where the impression of lying comes from. I do understand the feelings of betrayal. I understand the concern for the relationship and for self. The reactions and emotions are real. Properly, those feelings belong to the post-disclosure period before one understands the realities. At that point humanity and empathy should prevail as regards the disclosure question itself.

Understanding, of course, has nothing whatsoever to do with any issues consequent to the disclosure. The relationship still might not survive or be wanted. Lives may be wasted or devastated. There might be fallout with children and family. Nothing, however, changes the fact that the disclosure can't happen before it can happen. And it's exactly the same with many similar things in life, from eating disorders, to adoption, abuse, psychological issues, learning disabilities, birth defects, and a hundred other things. All of which, by the way, are extended a level of heartfelt empathy of which those with gender issues can only dream. Beyond queer indeed.

The notion that lack of disclosure for the closeted is a lie is, well, a lie.

Are you lying to yourself by entering into a relationship? I mean, if you are a crossdresser, and you enjoy crossdressing, why bring anyone else into the equation? In other words, why not just stay within your “self,” and not bother anyone with this inexplicable need to dress? A person who truly understands the dangers ahead (as you have outlined in the OP), will embrace the constraints of crossdressing and learn to live with the social stigmata. Since no one will ever understand why you dress, you have to take steps (in heels, no less) to distance yourself from the idea of normal relationships or social interaction…

I wish I had never told anyone about my dressing, because it changes the “playing field” in so many different ways. Keep your secrets to yourself, I say, and crossdressing is a very precious (and private) secret worth protecting. When I was dating a woman not too many years ago, and we were on the road to marriage and all things beyond, I tucked my crossdressing away and had every intention of keeping it there – it was not an issue for discussion, in fact I actually felt like I was heading towards some ideal of "normalcy," or social acceptance, that had previously eluded me. I was with a very feminine woman, so there was no need for me to be feminine as well. It was a delusion I kept feeding myself, itself a lie of staggering proportions. When the relationship ended, not with a bang but with a thud, I quite naturally felt like myself again, since I wasn’t lying to my “self” anymore…
:straightface:

[jillleanne]

Kelly, I apologize, but I don't understand your response.

I characterized the hobbyist and protector types as unjustified (i.e., lying). Again, these aren't hard categories or types, but examples. I can easily construct other scenarios, even in a serious suppression case where omission would be a deliberate, deceptive lie. I agree it depends on the individual, their character, their psyche, their circumstances, their risks. Case by case.

I'm not suggesting that crossdressing per se has any causal relationship to lying. What I AM suggesting, based on my reading of the forum, is that lots of men hide deliberately regardless of rationale. I'm guessing here, but it seems that most of the people on the forum are not out to their SO's, and the majority of them seem to fall into the more casual crossdresser categories. Assuming that's actually true, what do you call their omission?

Lea

Lea, there is a common rationale amongst gender enhanced people for hiding deliberately; fear, shame and guilt. It matter's not the age, birth gender, or nationality. I would agree the majority are not out to anyone except on this forum, free of fear, shame and guilt. I will until the day I die, never understand what the term " casual crossdresser " means, where it originated, and why it contiues to be misued. There is no such thing as a 'casual crossdresser'. Do a random survey of 5,000 crossdressers asking one question with only a YES or NO reply:" Would you, if given the opportunity without any negative impact whatsoever, dress/express your feminine self more often if you could?" I suspect 4,975 will say yes. The 25 'no's' will be people people in the temporary purge/denial stage. The omission remains THE LIE. It was born at the point of recognition and remains THE LIE until disclosed, period. The effects are the variable, but THE LIE remains, THE LIE.

[AnitaH]

In the case where the TG "progresses" or emerges in the sense of self-realization unfolding (i.e., not progressing in the sense of one thing leading, as a consequence, to another), you might think there would be disclosure at some point, but it's really a variant on the basic conflict point, above. Trust in other contexts doesn't mitigate against psychological survival. This segues into suppression.

[QUOTE]Suppression is not about hiding or holding back. Suppression is an unconscious reaction pushing away that which is unacceptable to one's sense of proper self. The TG person's psyche does not allow the forbidden feelings to co-exist with their daily life. There's always a consequence and it's usually depression and/or withdrawal. At its worst, people push away their real personalities and identities to such an extent that they are virtually unrecoverable without serious therapy. To suggest that a suppressed person is lying in not disclosing is absurd. In fact, a really deeply suppressed person might not even know what you are talking about until the point of realization and coming out.[QUOTE]

Lea
.
Thank you for such a well thoughout thread. Not trying to hijack this thread but your thoughts define me exactly. Although I had talked to my, at the time future wife, about my CD activities I was of the mind that I was just a "Hobbiest" and it would was agreed it would stop. Only now after 16 years of marriage, and years of therapy by the way, I find I was deeply suppressed, exactly the kind of person you describe. Now my wife is left with someone that is considerably different than the person she married years ago. Did I lie to her when dating? One the surface it may look like it and I must confess to her it may appear to be so, yet I was as completely honest to her as I could have been at the time. I must say that if I had never told her about my CD activities then maybe yes there would have been an attempt to hide or decieve making it a lie.

Again thank you for the time and thought put into this thread. It's the first time I have seen in print exactly what I have experienced.

AnitaH

[Shelly67]

Perhaps we all need to face up to the reality we all have told lies be them little white lies , or full on deception. The reality is we all hate being lied to . But for our own personal reasons ( been there done it myself ) have continued to be delusive and untruthful no matter the subject .
Now here is the blunt truth , one which I'm sorry no one will like . Its like this - you tell porkies what do you really expect when the truth comes out ?
After all we only have ourselves to blame , and never forget - to be a good liar you must have a fantastic memory .

[Clueless]

Lea, I read this thread just after it popped up, but didn't have the time to reply then. I agree with your 1st 3 examples. I think you are wrong about your 4th example. No amount of Clintonesque (+1 to Kelly, that's what I thought when reading the last part) rationalizing or semantics changes the fact that a Cder knows that he is one to whatever degree. Hiding that fact from a SO is lying by omission. Whatever the reason/excuse is for any lie is immaterial. Any lie is always a lie. It doesn't matter if it's done by a child (who is old enough to know what lying is), a government or anyone else, it's still lying. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie Lying is harmful to both parties, the liar & the person who was lied to.

If the Cder is TS to whatever degree & keeps it hidden from their SO, that's an even larger lie. The only way I can see how hiding it would be acceptable at all, is if the Cder discovers that he is a Cder or TS, after the start of a serious relationship or marriage. If he waits until he can understand it better himself by going seriously (being 100% honest with the counselor) to professional counseling, before telling his SO, that could be understandable. The idea would be so he could give his SO some useful & honest answers. I could see how saying; "hey honey, guess what? I just found out I'm a Cder or TS. I don't know why or where I'm going with it yet, just wanted to let you know first. How was your day?" would be very frustrating to a suddenly very hurt SO. Going to a web forum is not a substitute for professional counseling.

This is the big part that most Cders seem to miss: it doesn't matter one bit how you think or feel about it at all. The one it matters to is the SO, as she is the one who is being deceived & lied to. I don't think the Cding is even the main issue (I'm sure it is with some women, as I'm sure it's NBD to others) it's the fact that such a huge lie was done in the first place. It's an issue of character & integrity. Ask as many women as you want, leave the Cd part out & I'm sure the vast majority will agree. It's also a respect issue. I think many Cders hide it from a prospective SO as they feel it lowers their dating "number". Would it be OK to lie about; how much $ you make, if you have kids, had a criminal past, had a drug or alcohol addiction, a mental disorder, etc, etc. On the flip side of that coin, how would you feel if your SO hid something big like that? An SO shouldn't need to ask 21 questions before deciding if you are the one. Right or wrong, like it or not, Cding is viewed by most of society as something very abnormal & negative (I know that's not how it should be, but that's reality). That is a problem the Cder has to deal with. It shouldn't be her's unless that is what she wants to get involved in, with both eyes open. She should have all the facts about you before getting serious, as you should have about her.

I can't see how hiding Cding is tied to survival after a Cder moves out from their parent's home. Some Cders are able to work a job even while dressed. Most can work underdressed if careful. Unless working in corporate Japan or serving in the military, most adults are free to dress how they want when off the clock. After age 18, what you do on your own time is up to you, as long as you don't break the law. Why risk breaking your SO's heart with years of hiding & lying, just because you don't have the cojones to be honest up front? The whole issue is very simple & shouldn't have to be agonized over.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Kelly, I apologize, but I don't understand your response.

I characterized the hobbyist and protector types as unjustified (i.e., lying). Again, these aren't hard categories or types, but examples. I can easily construct other scenarios, even in a serious suppression case where omission would be a deliberate, deceptive lie. I agree it depends on the individual, their character, their psyche, their circumstances, their risks. Case by case.

I'm not suggesting that crossdressing per se has any causal relationship to lying. What I AM suggesting, based on my reading of the forum, is that lots of men hide deliberately regardless of rationale. I'm guessing here, but it seems that most of the people on the forum are not out to their SO's, and the majority of them seem to fall into the more casual crossdresser categories. Assuming that's actually true, what do you call their omission?

Lea

Lea,

You are bending my words, you see, I do NOT agree with you when you say "it depends on the individual, their character, their psyche, their circumstances, their risks. Case by case." those are your words. Your rational is that the validity of lying "depends on the individual, their character, their psyche, their circumstances, their risks. Case by case.". What you are giving a person is justification to lie.

What you call a 'supression case' or an ommission, is the big "LIE" that becomes the relationship killer.

"I'm not suggesting that crossdressing per se has any causal relationship to lying."

I've re-read your posts in this thread many times and it's clear that you do see a releationship between crossdressing (categories) and levels of 'omission'

what you call 'ommissions' are lies, would'nt you agree ?

[LeaP]

I will until the day I die, never understand what the term " casual crossdresser " means, where it originated, and why it contiues to be misued. There is no such thing as a 'casual crossdresser'. ... The omission remains THE LIE. It was born at the point of recognition and remains THE LIE until disclosed, period. The effects are the variable, but THE LIE remains, THE LIE.

Jillleane,

What an interesting response, especially coming right behind Freddy's. You contrast "LIE" so strongly against Freddy's "secret." One feels as though you MUST accept "the lie" (why, I wonder), while Freddy conveys a personal jewel.

The comment on the use of "casual" is fairly raised. I would not have used it myself before reading through the site. Fact is, many crossdressers here minimize the significance of their dressing in a variety of ways. Likewise, it would never have occurred to me to apply "hobbyist" to dressing - until I read SO many people here self-describing that way. All of it adds up to casual. Now of course, casual crossdressing can also mean wearing jeans and a tee, but we don't want to get Karren going!

Lea


Lea,

You are bending my words, you see, I do NOT agree with you when you say "it depends on the individual, their character, their psyche, their circumstances, their risks. Case by case." those are your words. Your rational is that the validity of lying "depends on the individual, their character, their psyche, their circumstances, their risks. Case by case.". What you are giving a person is justification to lie.

What you call a 'supression case' or an ommission, is the big "LIE" that becomes the relationship killer.

"I'm not suggesting that crossdressing per se has any causal relationship to lying."

I've re-read your posts in this thread many times and it's clear that you do see a releationship between crossdressing (categories) and levels of 'omission'

what you call 'ommissions' are lies, would'nt you agree ?

Thanks for staying with me, Kelly. I think we're both trying to understand one another. I do see where you're coming from on the first comment, and I do see that I have injected some of my own thinking into my "agreement."

The heart of it is this, which also speaks to your question about omissions: The omission must be conscious, or knowledgeable, to constitute a lie. I don't agree with several who have commented that crossdressers always know what they are. I do think that there is a knowledge or awareness threshhold that is crossed(!) at which point the crossdresser absolutely must tell their SO. Doubtless, a lot of crossdressers justify that away, and justification, as opposed to a real lack of knowledge, IS part of the lying syndrome. To me, the threshhold is not "gee, I tried on my wife's slip a couple of times" but when he looks in the mirror and realizes, or knows, that dressing is part of him, whether or not it reaches the formality of "I am a crossdresser."

Lea

[Kaz]

Good thread Lea!

Non-disclosure is not lying. They are two very different concepts and this is why we have different words for them. I know many people who do not tell everything about themselves - why should they? In an angry moment my wife suggested that I should tell everyone I am a CD... my band, my friends, my work colleagues... but why? It is just not an issue.

I am not a hobbyist and find the idea of CDing as a hobby a bit odd... but then hey-ho... we are all on what I guess would turn out to be a normal distribution of practice and thinking.

I don't lie here... I might elsewhere. Do I non-disclose here... of course I do! I am at an age when I just forget stuff!

[LeaP]

Lea, I read this thread just after it popped up, but didn't have the time to reply then. I agree with your 1st 3 examples. I think you are wrong about your 4th example. No amount of Clintonesque (+1 to Kelly, that's what I thought when reading the last part) rationalizing or semantics changes the fact that a Cder knows that he is one to whatever degree. ...

I can't see how hiding Cding is tied to survival after a Cder moves out from their parent's home. Some Cders are able to work a job even while dressed. Most can work underdressed if careful. Unless working in corporate Japan or serving in the military, most adults are free to dress how they want when off the clock. After age 18, what you do on your own time is up to you, as long as you don't break the law. Why risk breaking your SO's heart with years of hiding & lying, just because you don't have the cojones to be honest up front? The whole issue is very simple & shouldn't have to be agonized over.

On the first (quoted) point, I think Anita provided a perfect example of my 4th category. She disclosed crossdressing, properly so, as she was aware. She did so as fully as possible and apparently made a good faith pledge to stop dressing. It turned out, years later, that the crossdressing was not as she thought, that it ran deeper, and it went so far as to have implications for her basic personality and the relationship. I detect no hint of any self-deception or justification in the account. No omissions, no deceptions, no lies. Yet look at where she is.

Crossdressing isn't necessarily tied to survival (again, including psychological). It often is for those for whom gender identity issues weigh, not for others. There's a tendency in the forum to grant the point to transsexuals but not to others in the gender spectrum. I understand that point of view, but read too many accounts of need to dress, of urgency, even among those described as hobbyists, etc. Survival can be dire, as in life or death. It can also refer to psychological health. If your ability to focus on work, to stay depression, etc. is involved, it's a survival issue.

Lea



... Although I had talked to my, at the time future wife, about my CD activities I was of the mind that I was just a "Hobbiest" and it would was agreed it would stop. Only now after 16 years of marriage, and years of therapy by the way, I find I was deeply suppressed, exactly the kind of person you describe. Now my wife is left with someone that is considerably different than the person she married years ago. Did I lie to her when dating? One the surface it may look like it and I must confess to her it may appear to be so, yet I was as completely honest to her as I could have been at the time. I must say that if I had never told her about my CD activities then maybe yes there would have been an attempt to hide or decieve making it a lie.

Again thank you for the time and thought put into this thread. It's the first time I have seen in print exactly what I have experienced.

AnitaH

Thank you for providing such a perfect, personal example, Anita. It can be hard to put yourself out there like that.

Lea

[Noortje]

Dear Lea,

Your post is very well written and insightful. You competently separate "regular" lying from "deeply in denial" lying, and make a convincing case for not judging them with the same severity. I am not sure that the "hobbyist" or "fetishist" are not also caught up in psychological tangles of their own. They probably deserve equally lengthy and nuanced analyses. But that's digressing.

This post makes me think we (the community) should write a sort of "caring for your crossdresser" type manual, analogous to the "caring for your introvert" essay. It could explain to confused SO's (and others) that their crossdressing partner is not an untrustworthy liar, but instead a scared and confused person that needs their support, or at least their forgiveness.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Lea what you described in the OP are justifications for lies.

I did it... I lied.. i lied to her, and i lied to myself..
i ended up transitioning... I love my exwife to this day. I was a great father, a great friend, and a great provider....but i lied to myself and to her... i feel guilty and ashamed of it, i am slowly getting over it. My ex has moved on and we are good friends and co parents... I never once blamed her or excused myself to her FOR MY ACTIONS...

I think your OP is really trying to claim that some lies are justified for the reasons you discussed....
your reasoning is solid, but the person on the other end of lie is still impacted the same way....

so to me, its a selfish and self absorbed way to think of it...once you've told the lie, the only thing you can really do is try your best to make it better, not try to explain why you did it..

[kimdl93]

I don't feel adequately skilled to respond, since I came out to my SO long before we were married. So, I consulted an expert who had a good deal to say on the matter of Lying:

In all lies there is wheat among the chaff...
- A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court

You cain't pray a lie.
- Adventures of Huckleberry Finn

The most outrageous lies that can be invented will find believers if a man only tells them with all his might.
- Letter to San Francisco Alta California, dated May 17, 1867; published June 16, 1867

[Lying] Man's most universal weakness.
- quoted in Mark Twain and I, by Opie Read

Carlyle said "a lie cannot live." It shows that he did not know how to tell them.
- Mark Twain's Autobiography; Mark Twain in Eruption

Lie--an abomination before the Lord and an ever present help in time of trouble.
- 3/30/1901

The lie, as a virtue, a principle, is eternal; the lie, as a recreation, a solace, a refuge in time of need, the fourth Grace, the tenth Muse, man's best and surest friend is immortal.
- "On the Decay of the Art of Lying"

One of the most striking differences between a cat and a lie is that a cat has only nine lives.
- Pudd'nhead Wilson


I would rather tell seven lies than make one explanation.
- Letter to John Bellows, 11 April 1883

Tis immoral to lie except for practice.
- Maxim written in copy of Editorial Wild Oats donated in 1905 for the Bryn Mawr book sale. Reported in Washington Times, December 16, 1905, p. 3.

Never tell a lie--P.S. - Except to keep in practice.
- quoted in "Mark Twain's Autograph," Atlanta Constitution, 9 September 1906, p. E3.

[Alice Torn]

So, it really comes down, to us single Cders, to have the Kahonies, ot risk losing a potential wife or SO, by telling them soon, in a relationship, BEFORE seriously comitted. We may have our hearts broken time and time again, but, maybe there is still someone out there, we have not met yet, or, maybe it is best, to just have friends, and stay single. I truly believe, that some married closet cders, are simply TERRIFIED there mate will find out, and disaster will occur. That is understandable. The cder may not want to hurt his mate. Opening a can of worms, can be hell on earth!I suppose it would be best, to disclose at the right time, place, and setting. I fell for such cd's. If i ever date again, and meet a potential mate, I will SURELY tell her EARLY in the friendship, come hell or high water. Great thread, Lea!

[KayleeDahl]

Ok, my 2 cents... you can call whatever you want a lie or not - BUT if you are:

stashing clothes in a duffel and saying that it's "just camping stuff" OR
going on a femme trip, and calling it a business trip OR
going out and claiming that you are going to poker night
etc


YOU ARE LYING!!!

Call not disclosing what you want, but i would say that most of us have lied because of dressing, and so we are lying to our significant others by not bringing it all out into the open.

I'm not saying that bringing it out into the open is the path for everyone, but lets call a spade a spade.

Hugs
Kaylee

[IamSara]

As one who just recently came out to my wife of 26 years, it was a very tramatic thing. we both have suffered greatly from it. We are trying to work through it but it is tough. As Marlena said in her post it goes way back and compensating to the extreme was the way to handle it. Hard as it has been all my life I am trying to lift that image and let the real me show through. In talking with my wife and kids they will tell you that they have seen the feminine in me all along but just never thought anything about it. I have no trouble doing anything around the house and the way I treat my wife and kids lends more towards the feminine side than a macho man I tried to tell everyone I was.
At any rate I tend to agree with what was posted here as it is a dead ringer for my life as a TG.

[abigailf]

I didn't finish reading through all the replies, so if I repeat I am sorry.

This was well thought out and although there could probably be more categories of "lyres" it seems it was quite encompassing.

However, I would be curious to get an SO's point of view on this. I mean we forget one basic thing, if our SO perceives as as lying, then guess what, we are lying. Communication is not about transmission, it is about reception. Justify it all you want for your own conscience, but a hurt SO is still a hurt SO.

Sure, I'm with you, I'd like to justify it in the best light possible. I lied to myself and believed it was nothing, but just because I lied to myself does not mean it is not a lie to everyone else around me. Whether it is subconscious or conscious behavior, we are still propagating a falsehood.

[Claire Cook]

Gee, there is lot to digest here. Maybe too much for this simple brain, so my simple-minded response. If one end of the spectrum is "honest and forthright", then concealment is to some extent a "lie". (I guess the other end is "I am not a crossdresser.") Whether the "lie" is justified is another issue. I guess I had the idealistic view that marriage is like "until death do you part", so, I told my wife early on. 43 years later (Monday was out anniversary), she still does not mind to this person in a dress and uncombed wig bringing her coffee at 5 AM...

[Alice Torn]

I agree with the one poster, who said that CDers are some of the most easily guilt and shame tripped people on earth.

[LeaP]

I agree with the one poster, who said that CDers are some of the most easily guilt and shame tripped people on earth.

It's perverse. The root of it is wanting to validate those who are criticizing us. We accept guilt in an attempt to be reasonable, to acknowledge the seriousness of the difficulties we present. In doing so, we substitute reason for being patronized.

Crossdressing and gender variation are NORMAL. The wrong-headedness is with the ones criticizing. When it comes to flinging the accusation of lies, we buy right in. "Yes, you're absolutely right. I was completely and totally wrong. I lied. I misrepresented. I misunderstood. I hid. [etc.]" Even when we are telling the truth!

Accepting guilt is a choice.

Lea

[jillleanne]

Lea, so happy you find my post interesting. You will note I posted before and after Frederique's post. I do believe if you read her post again you will agree her post was her lie, one of the same, to which as she says, " .....since I wasn't lying to myself anymore". Whether the gender enhanced person accepts the lie or not, does not change the fact it is a lie that is not being shared with the s/o. Do not confuse nor combine the fact one needs to accept who they are with the lie they hold within.
The misuse of the term ' casual crossdresser' may appear fairly raised but in reality, along with other misused terms such as 'hobbyist', are conveniently used as disguises to justify the lie they carry. Auto restoration is a guy hobby, fishing is a guy hobby, hunting is a guy hobby, but dressing in women's clothing for sexual gratification or any other reason needed to dress en femme, never was, isn't now, nor ever will be, a hobby of anyone's. How many people can you name participate in a hobby that no one directly connected to them knows about?
One can dress up THE LIE with window dressings to make it appear to be something else but it remains THE LIE. Only disclosure can rectify it.

[Kelly DeWinter]

.....

Accepting guilt is a choice.

Lea

Denial of guilt is a choice as well.

Lea,

From your posts you assume we are all born knowing right from wrong , I reality we learn through experience and others what is right and wrong (yes culture !). and in fact we never stop learning. But in the end it allways boils down to choices, what a person feels is in their own best interest, others may NOT feel is in THEIR best interest.

Kelly

[LeaP]

Denial of guilt is a choice as well.

Lea,

From your posts you assume we are all born knowing right from wrong , I reality we learn through experience and others what is right and wrong (yes culture !). and in fact we never stop learning. But in the end it allways boils down to choices, what a person feels is in their own best interest, others may NOT feel is in THEIR best interest.

Kelly

Yes, denial of guilt is also a choice.

I'm not sure where you get that I assume we are born knowing right from wrong. I actually do not assume that. Right and wrong are social constructs. We are naturally hurt by many things we do to one another, but not all cultures assign the notion of wrong to all harms.

Guilt has an interesting social utility. It exists for reconciliation and reparation by providing the emotional trigger. One who feels (or at least truthfully acknowledges) guilt essentially becomes submissive to judgement. Without a corresponding response by the person to whom submission is made, no reconciliation is possible.

Guilt can be one way of identitying a lie in oneself. Thing is, guilt doesn't correspond only to lies or wrongs. I feel guilt over many things, including things I've done to hurt people completely unintentionally, even through chance circumstances. I never feel or accept guilt, however, for negative consequences resulting from either, 1) a deliberate choice or action I took that I think right, or 2) a gross misrepresentation imposed on me by someone else. I might feel terrible about those consequences, might feel the need for variety of reasons to do something about them, but that's not guilt.

One can know they lie, ought to feel guilty, and let that lead them to taking action. One can be caught in a lie, might have to be humbled to discover guilt and the need for reconciliation and reparation, which will lead them to action.

One can also be guilted before they are ready to deal with something. And finally, one can be pressured into accepting guilt for something they haven't done. Both destroy guilt's utility and value.

It is interesting that so many take my OP (and subsequent posts) as justifying lying. I do not. In every single instance where someone knows what they are, what they are doing, they absolutely should be telling their SO. Period. I include in that those who lie to themselves, are self-deluding, etc. If you search my older posts, I've invariably counseled people struggling or questioning coming out to their SO to do so.

I don't include those with genuine psychological issues. That seems obvious to me in the case of the deeply suppressed. What I take from many responses, however, is that a lot of people disbelieve in those issues in some very fundamental ways.

Lea

[Dawn cd]

Is lying always wrong? Well, yes, but are all withheld facts lies? They may be many things we don't tell our friends and spouses. In fact, the person who goes around blabbering everything that is on his/her mind would seem to lack prudence and judgment. If we withhold information that another person needs to know for his or her own safety and wellbeing, then we are doing damage. In that case silence is a lie. But if there is no need to know, then our silence may be an act of kind consideration.

[Foxglove]

The heart of it is this, which also speaks to your question about omissions: The omission must be conscious, or knowledgeable, to constitute a lie. I don't agree with several who have commented that crossdressers always know what they are. I do think that there is a knowledge or awareness threshhold that is crossed(!) at which point the crossdresser absolutely must tell their SO. Doubtless, a lot of crossdressers justify that away, and justification, as opposed to a real lack of knowledge, IS part of the lying syndrome. To me, the threshhold is not "gee, I tried on my wife's slip a couple of times" but when he looks in the mirror and realizes, or knows, that dressing is part of him, whether or not it reaches the formality of "I am a crossdresser."


Lea, thanks for this thread. It's given me much to think about, like so much else I've come across on this forum.

The paragraph above is particularly apt in my case. Maybe some people will think I'm trying to make excuses for myself, but this is something that I can say in all honesty: I went into a marriage knowing that I was a crossdresser and without telling the wife about it--but I don't believe I lied to her, by omission or in any other way.

My reason is this: The omission must be conscious, or knowledgeable, to constitute a lie. I was fairly mixed up when I was young. There were a lot of things about myself I didn't understand. (A girlfriend once got me going down the road to understanding another aspect of my personality, besides my CDing, that I didn't understand). I knew I was a crossdresser, but what I didn't understand was the nature or significance of my problem. I'd never met another CDer, had never read anything about CDing, knew nothing whatsoever about the problem. It was something that generally I tried not to think about too much.

So what sort of impact does CDing have on the life of the CDer and on the life of his SO? I knew nothing about those things, had never considered them, wasn't even aware that CDing might have a significant impact on her life. It's not even that I was in denial. I hadn't considered the issue long enough to deny anything. Basically, I was wandering through life about as oblivious to the self as one can be. This may be hard for some people to understand, but that's the way it was with me at the time.

I think it's true to say that in order to tell a lie you have to be conscious of what you're lying about. And I wasn't fully conscious of my CDing, in the sense that I had no notion of its significance and consequences.

I know what a lie is, and I know when I'm telling one. And like a lot of CDers, I have a keen sense of guilt. But I never felt that I lied to the wife. The marriage is now long over, and when it fell apart, it had nothing to do with my CDing, which the wife did become aware of.

Once you get to a threshold of consciousness, then, yes, you can tell a lie. I'm past that threshold now, and the failure to tell a potential SO I would certainly regard as a lie. I wouldn't go into a relationship now like I did when I was young.

If anyone feels I'm being dishonest about all this, you're free to raise any issue you like. I don't want to sound like I'm condoning dishonesty or lying, because I'm not. I very strongly believe in those two things--especially in a relationship. It's just that I was fairly strange in ways when I was young.

[Babeba]

This may be a can of worms I'm opening up...

... But, by the very Virtue that we are on crossdressers.com, everyone on here has enough self knowledge that - if they were in the start of a new relationship they thought could get serious - they really OUGHT to be disclosing what they know about themselves to that potential SO. If that is the right relationship to be in, she will be accepting to some level. If the gut reaction is that she can't be trusted to know your true self - what is the relationship built on?? I was told early, and I cannot stress enough how important it was to me as part of our relationship. Having been shared with, I share with my partner back. We're very close mainly because of how much we trust each other, and a lot of that was built when he trusted me enough to share that big secret.

In regards to suppression, late blooming, realizing what your nature is when in a relationship - I really can see it. Truly. People are always learning about themselves, and self acceptance is a positive thing. However - marriage is a journey of two people together through life. Maybe as an unmarried youngster, I'm being romantic about the institution, but I really think that once that self knowledge has lead to, 'I'm a crossdresser' or 'I could be TG' or 'am I really TS?' that even if it's been 20 years since you said those vows, they still bind in that spirit of working together. How hurtful is it if the person you relied on through thick and thin, was your life partner, didn't trust you enough to ask for your support as they tried to sort through a major issue that really could impact them? Working with you to support you as you find answers may make your spouse feel Invested and involved in your journey towards self acceptance.

Also, 'I couldn't tell you sooner because I didn't know' is an acceptable reason to bring this up later in marriage. It's not a lie - unless, of course, you've been signed up to TG websites for ages, have a femme persona and wardrobe, and have clearly put time and effort in. That gets back into lying territory again.

Lea, you've obviously put a lot of thought into this. I don't think on the overall there is one Big Lie that is too hard to get over... It is all the little lies my fellow GGs seem to struggle with added all together, especially while wrapping their heads around a conpletely different idea of how gender works, and who their partner is. Little lies are continuous process, not like a person decides once to not disclose and does not have to do anything else to keep that fiction going... It is constant through the day. I also believe it is every person's right to know the important factors that shape their lives. Maybe I'm biased - of course I am biased - but no one should have major information withheld from them that could change the decisions they make about their own lives. To the outside, there isn't a lot of functional difference between the 'protector' and the 'suppressed' that has carried on a little long.

[Lorileah]

If we withhold information that another person needs to know for his or her own safety and wellbeing, then we are doing damage. In that case silence is a lie. But if there is no need to know, then our silence may be an act of kind consideration.

When you read most what the GG's post here and often what a TG who is splitting with their SO, you can see that this information is often a "need to know" situation. You may not feel that it is but I will go back to the equity analogy. The longer you keep this hidden the bigger the shock and the bigger the hurt because the other person had ideas and expectations. If nothing else this site should show that keeping it a secret usually doesn't lead to a happy ending. It hurts and when you hurt someone close, it hurts more. Hiding what you do from your friends and neighbors doesn't hurt, but that woman (or man depending) that you have become "cleaved unto" has a vested interest in your lives together. So you broke a vase...silence is OK. So you break a heart...you should have spoken up

[jillleanne]

Hi Annabelle, I dressed since I can remember, knew I was different but didn't have a name for it during adolescent years, pre-computer days, etc. At the time I suppose I probably even called it 'a problem ' as well, I don't recall. I was never one to dwell much on anything or worry about much for long. I have always just gone with the flow and accepted life as it came and continue to deal with it as it comes(long story,technically, I am not supposed to be alive).
I never considered the impact being tg might have on my marriage at an early age into the marriage and never gave it much thought at the time. I like eveyone else, thought I could quit, purge it, change, etc., only to have it return without planning it. So was it a lie at the time? Did I know I was permanently gender enhanced? Did I know I could not control it for life? Nope, did not. I was not concealing any lies at that time. IF however, I was to expose my gender isssue then, not even knowing at the time what I was doing was recognizing a potential life long lie, and say to my wife at the time " Honey, I know you do not know anything about this because I never told you before, I guess because I never really gave it much importance always thinking it would just go away, but maybe telling you could help me understand something about myself and we can try to figure this out together. Let me start from the beginning....", I would have been accepting and exposing my gender issues then and there, and no lie would have been born . But I didn't and few do. I do understand how easy it was to become confused. So when does the lie become 'the lie'? When does the lie become a lie to you and when does it become a lie to others? It will never occur at the same time, never. When one consciously knows what they do is 'different( shame)' from social norms, hides(fear/guilt) it from others in any of many ways, with or without the assistance of the internet, regardless of understanding any implications the secret(lie) may have, constitutes a lie to yourself. The lie to others from the cd's point of view, occurs when one knowingly lies to the s/o having kept the lie a secret for whatever reason. The lie initially, from the s/o's standpoint I would expect , occurs at the point of discovery. That realization can change after discussions reveal more.



My reason is this: The omission must be conscious, or knowledgeable, to constitute a lie. I was fairly mixed up when I was young. There were a lot of things about myself I didn't understand. (A girlfriend once got me going down the road to understanding another aspect of my personality, besides my CDing, that I didn't understand). I knew I was a crossdresser, but what I didn't understand was the nature or significance of my problem. I'd never met another CDer, had never read anything about CDing, knew nothing whatsoever about the problem. It was something that generally I tried not to think about too much.

So what sort of impact does CDing have on the life of the CDer and on the life of his SO? I knew nothing about those things, had never considered them, wasn't even aware that CDing might have a significant impact on her life. It's not even that I was in denial. I hadn't considered the issue long enough to deny anything. Basically, I was wandering through life about as oblivious to the self as one can be. This may be hard for some people to understand, but that's the way it was with me at the time.

I think it's true to say that in order to tell a lie you have to be conscious of what you're lying about. And I wasn't fully conscious of my CDing, in the sense that I had no notion of its significance and consequences.

I know what a lie is, and I know when I'm telling one. And like a lot of CDers, I have a keen sense of guilt. But I never felt that I lied to the wife. The marriage is now long over, and when it fell apart, it had nothing to do with my CDing, which the wife did become aware of.

Once you get to a threshold of consciousness, then, yes, you can tell a lie. I'm past that threshold now, and the failure to tell a potential SO I would certainly regard as a lie. I wouldn't go into a relationship now like I did when I was young.

If anyone feels I'm being dishonest about all this, you're free to raise any issue you like. I don't want to sound like I'm condoning dishonesty or lying, because I'm not. I very strongly believe in those two things--especially in a relationship. It's just that I was fairly strange in ways when I was young.[/QUOTE]

[Foxglove]

Hi Annabelle, I dressed since I can remember, knew I was different but didn't have a name for it during adolescent years, pre-computer days, etc. At the time I suppose I probably even called it 'a problem ' as well, I don't recall. I was never one to dwell much on anything or worry about much for long. I have always just gone with the flow and accepted life as it came and continue to deal with it as it comes(long story,technically, I am not supposed to be alive).
I never considered the impact being tg might have on my marriage at an early age into the marriage and never gave it much thought at the time. I like eveyone else, thought I could quit, purge it, change, etc., only to have it return without planning it. So was it a lie at the time? Did I know I was permanently gender enhanced? Did I know I could not control it for life? Nope, did not. I was not concealing any lies at that time. IF however, I was to expose my gender isssue then, not even knowing at the time what I was doing was recognizing a potential life long lie, and say to my wife at the time " Honey, I know you do not know anything about this because I never told you before, I guess because I never really gave it much importance always thinking it would just go away, but maybe telling you could help me understand something about myself and we can try to figure this out together. Let me start from the beginning....", I would have been accepting and exposing my gender issues then and there, and no lie would have been born . But I didn't and few do. I do understand how easy it was to become confused. So when does the lie become 'the lie'? When does the lie become a lie to you and when does it become a lie to others? It will never occur at the same time, never. When one consciously knows what they do is 'different( shame)' from social norms, hides(fear/guilt) it from others in any of many ways, with or without the assistance of the internet, regardless of understanding any implications the secret(lie) may have, constitutes a lie to yourself. The lie to others from the cd's point of view, occurs when one knowingly lies to the s/o having kept the lie a secret for whatever reason. The lie initially, from the s/o's standpoint I would expect , occurs at the point of discovery. That realization can change after discussions reveal more.



Hi, Jilleanne. I can certainly go along with what you're saying here.

What I was guilty of at the time was ignorance. Somebody once said that we have a moral responsibily to others to pursue knowledge, in particular self-knowledge. People can be hurt by ignorance. And if you choose to remain ignorant when you do have the opportunity to be a wiser and more thinking person, then you are failing to do something that would reduce the harm you do to others. So I should have been more thoughtful about myself and my nature. But I was young at the time. I really hope I'm better now. I do know that if I were to go into another relationship at this point of my life, I'd do it differently.

Once you become aware of yourself and your nature, it becomes a lie not to open up to those who need you to do so. I think that willfull ignorance is no excuse. And there are plenty of people who are guilty of willfull ignorance.

Best wishes, Annabelle.

[PretzelGirl]

Lots of good thinking here. In my mind, it comes down to one thing. My wife is my best friend, the person I choose to **share** my life with, and the person I will protect until the day we die. Under those circumstances, there is nothing that I should hide from her. When you hide something from someone in order to protect them, it is a unhealthy and co-dependent act. People need to stand on their own two feet and deal with life themselves. They can't do that with missing information.

Is it okay to hide financial difficulty from your wife to only tell her when the house is being foreclosed on? Is it okay to hide it from your wife that you are having health issues to only tell her when the doctor says he can't do anything more for you? Yes, these may having a varying degree of impact to a marriage, but it is all the same premise. A marriage is a shared life. So to have this information and not share it is a form of lying. It doesn't matter whether we just underdress or do drag. It is premise and not the execution that is at the core of the thought process.

[LeaP]

... But, by the very Virtue that we are on crossdressers.com, everyone on here has enough self knowledge that - if they were in the start of a new relationship they thought could get serious - they really OUGHT to be disclosing what they know about themselves to that potential SO. If that is the right relationship to be in, she will be accepting to some level. If the gut reaction is that she can't be trusted to know your true self - what is the relationship built on?? I was told early, and I cannot stress enough how important it was to me as part of our relationship. Having been shared with, I share with my partner back. We're very close mainly because of how much we trust each other, and a lot of that was built when he trusted me enough to share that big secret.

In regards to suppression, late blooming, realizing what your nature is when in a relationship - I really can see it. Truly. People are always learning about themselves, and self acceptance is a positive thing. However - marriage is a journey of two people together through life. Maybe as an unmarried youngster, I'm being romantic about the institution, but I really think that once that self knowledge has lead to, 'I'm a crossdresser' or 'I could be TG' or 'am I really TS?' that even if it's been 20 years since you said those vows, they still bind in that spirit of working together. How hurtful is it if the person you relied on through thick and thin, was your life partner, didn't trust you enough to ask for your support as they tried to sort through a major issue that really could impact them? Working with you to support you as you find answers may make your spouse feel Invested and involved in your journey towards self acceptance.

Also, 'I couldn't tell you sooner because I didn't know' is an acceptable reason to bring this up later in marriage. It's not a lie - unless, of course, you've been signed up to TG websites for ages, have a femme persona and wardrobe, and have clearly put time and effort in. That gets back into lying territory again.

Lea, you've obviously put a lot of thought into this. I don't think on the overall there is one Big Lie that is too hard to get over... It is all the little lies my fellow GGs seem to struggle with added all together, especially while wrapping their heads around a conpletely different idea of how gender works, and who their partner is. Little lies are continuous process, not like a person decides once to not disclose and does not have to do anything else to keep that fiction going... It is constant through the day. I also believe it is every person's right to know the important factors that shape their lives. Maybe I'm biased - of course I am biased - but no one should have major information withheld from them that could change the decisions they make about their own lives. To the outside, there isn't a lot of functional difference between the 'protector' and the 'suppressed' that has carried on a little long.

Thank you - all points well-taken. I agree that members of crossdressers.com (and other, similar sites) are WELL beyond any kind of awareness threshhold.

The comment on compounded lies is interesting. People in willfull denial often do pile up justifications - and the net effect can be greater than their sum. Thus do a hundred small things become "living a lie" (sometimes a big one, see also Lorileah's comments in #43).

Taking a different direction for the moment, what of the situation where a SO is known to not want to know? There are occasional comments from GGs in the forum wishing they had not been told. As I see it, there are two versions of that. One that essentially constitutes regret at being told something that they did, in fact, need to know. The second where the SO really wishes the CDer had simply kept it to himself. Now I'm not quite sure HOW someone would know - an interesting question in itself - but it seems to remove the lie from the lie, so to speak, for a small segment of the population anyway. It also, unfortunately, provides a justification avenue for those who shouldn't go there.

Lea