Just Wondering?

[Traci Elizabeth]

Just wondering if it is possible for a non-transsexual who after spending an abnormally large amount of time in this website, can convince themselves that they too are TS just from the influence this site has on them?

I see that as a possible risk from a lot of the responses I have read in almost two years from members who appear very weak emotionally, impressionable, and vulnerable.

What do you gals think?

[Rianna Humble]

I think there is a minute but real possibility that someone who is a cross-dresser lost in what CD's call "The Pink Fog" could persuade herself that she "must be TS". In such a case, though, I would not expect the delusion to last much beyond the very start of RLE if she even gets that far. Remember all of the threads that there have been from CD's who thought it would be fun to be dressed 24/7 for two weeks vacation but who got bored after the first few days.

If someone has persuaded herself that she "must be TS", this should be dealt with in therapy well before the person was given hormones, but even if the therapist has doubts and decides to use hormone therapy as a diagnostic tool, I would expect a non-TS person to realise at this stage that transition is not for her.

If the person is as weak-willed as you suggest, then she will not want to experience all the aggravation and discomfort that transition brings and which is only worth it in order to bring congruence into our lives.

[Jorja]

Yes, I believe it is possible for a non-transsexual to convince themselves they are TS just from the influence of this site. However, as you know, when push comes to shove, most will not take the steps necessary to actually become a woman. They will stop short of doing anything permanent. For me and I think most of us, it was a do or die situation that forced us to continue on. Those that do not have that need and desire to physically change their bodies won’t. This is also why the SoC exist. To weed out those who appear very weak emotionally, impressionable, and vulnerable from those who really need to make the changes.

[sandra-leigh]

Yes, I think that is plausible.

There has been a notable amount of messages, especially in this section, that have implied (or stated outright) that only transsexuals can feel particular ways. Other messages have indicated that the only three possibilities are "trans-sexual", "just a cross-dresser", and "plain male/female". This combination can leave people confused: if they do feel ways that supposedly only transsexuals can feel, and if there is some heavy Law Of The Excluded Middle happening, then the people can be led to conclude that they must be transsexual.

I know that many of the other "regulars" in this section might not have noticed this aspect, but I am sensitive to it, as I do feel numerous ways that supposedly only transsexuals feel, but I do not consider myself to be transsexual, and I am stubborn enough to "push back" against those who deny the validity of my intermediate experience.

So the situation is Plausible, but has it happened? I don't know. I would hope not, but I do not know, and I worry that it could happen.

I do see people here with what is (to me) unquestionably GID, but I am not certain that all of them are transsexual. When someone has persistent GID, it can in some ways be easier to transition than to uphold a firm androgynous identity. Society understands "male" and "female" and does not have much understanding of "more than a little of each".

It happens that this evening I had dinner with a FTM. He said that he and another FTM have been introducing the subject to people, "messing with their minds", by pointing out behaviors to individuals and asking them, "Have you ever considered...?". He said that a week after he had that conversation with one particular individual who had never considered the matter before, that that individual now refuses to go anywhere without a binder.

Was he exaggerating about the effects of those conversations? Possibly. I do trust, though, that some people have been influenced to think about their gender and that some of them have started to take action, even if only to "experiment" with acting in the other gender.

[Hope]

I think this is why I try very hard, and take extra-special care to be encouraging to everyone in their struggles, but to never try to convince anyone of anything. I think it is also why therapists (competent therapists) also try very hard to not influence their clients.

So... Yeah - I think it is a distinct, if minor, possibility that it could / has happened... but the responsibility lies not with the girls being influenced, but rather with the "big sisters" and the more experienced girls to not lead people while encouraging them.

[Fractured]

I am facing this exact question right now (thanks for posting it, Traci :) ). My therapist and wife don't think I am TG/TS yet I am undecided. There are little whispers of something not quite right that I have been unable to resolve. It's by visiting here and exploring supposedly one-off episodes I've experienced that I hope to discover (or realize) who I am.

Aside: There were enough issues with my therapist that I question her biases. I have discontinued treatment with her and will start treatment with a new therapist (hopefully next year). A second opinion also pointing away from GID may happen, I will just have to wait and see.

Aside over, I do worry that I am causing myself problems by reading all the exuberant posts on this forum. I try to keep myself from empathizing too closely, but don't know how well I am accomplishing that task.

I am starting the journey, tearing down walls that I built up in my youth. I don't know who or what I am going to find inside but I try to be cautious and not expect any particular outcome. I don't want to find a woman because that was what I was priming myself to find. If I find a woman, I want it to be be because that's who's really there.

[Zenith]

I doubt a website alone can influence someone. But absolutely there are plenty of people that convince themselves they are TS. Which I don't understand. I think expressing one's self is something to be celebrated, but sometimes people take the cheerleading as a cue to go all the way.

I actually spent a fair amount of time talking to people here, IRL, and my therapist trying to convince myself I was NOT TS...a few years ago I posted a thread that was titled "Oh Sh*t, I am actually TS...".

[Melody Moore]

I agree that it is possible, but as others have said when it comes down to facing up to the realities of
transition, most will not want to go down that road. And I think there is enough of us here to remind
these people that the road to transition is a very difficult path to take. Unless you are in it for life, then
get the hell out and I think for the most part, some do. I have seen a couple of people here give up
their endeavours and go back to living life in their birth sex because there was major issues they couldn't
overcome.

While I don't agree with some of the things that Kate says, there is a need to have people like her around
to ground everyone else in the cold harsh realities of what life like is really like as a transsexual woman.
There are a few trans girls I have met who I just want to grab & shake them to give them a wake up call.

[Rianna Humble]

While I don't agree with some of the things that Kate says, there is a need to have people like her around
to ground everyone else in the cold harsh realities of what life like is really like as a transsexual woman.

I think I would be more inclined to agree with you if Kate's posts were not always couched in confrontational language and if she didn't systematically misrepresent what people she disagrees with are saying. I do agree that we need people who care enough to try to keep our feet on the ground, but am not sure this was the best example to choose.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Yes I believe this is possible as well.

"Pink Fog" tends to envelope a non TS persons thought process thus causing them to "believe" that they too are TS.
But as others have posted here, when it comes down to actually taking action in order to advance towards aligning mind and body the reality of what they actually are will again take precedence.

The bottom line is that one is either TS or their not.


Julia

[Frances]

There are lots of people who convince themselves they are trans, and not just here, I see them at support group meetings. They never get on to "doing it" as Stephenie S would say. They talk about all the reasons preventing them from achieving their dream forever, how their wives or lack or money are insurmountable problems. Electrolysis should be used as a diagnostic tool as much as HRT in a lot of cases; the dreamers would go away quicker.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

One way to tell a person that has convinced themselves they are trans vs a person that is trans?

The trans person is much more frightened and concerned about their future...the trans person often denies and fights against the idea they are trans, while the pink fog person comes up with excuses why they can't transition, but otherwise thinks transition sounds wonderful if only it weren't so painful/expensive/destructive/difficult/etcetc...

just a stereotype, but it often fits..

[BillieJoEllen]

I believe whole heartedly that when one is a TS that person knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that that is what he or she is. I know that I am a TS but will never do anything about it now because its too late in my life and many other people are involved. I wish I could go back to my much younger years with the resources that we now have. I would have transitioned without even hardly thinking about it.

[Traci Elizabeth]

I am reminded of all those who try to transition or successfully transition only to revert back i.e. our beloved sports writer for one.

I have read so many times many here encourage others to "Try It, You Will Like It. And If not, You Can Always Go Back!" I'm don't subscribe to that type of Russian Roulette for anyone.

I would think that the negative costs one pays for "Trying It" would be all consuming and destructive. In my mind, there is no free ticket.

Just saying again....

[Rianna Humble]

I have read so many times many here encourage others to "Try It, You Will Like It. And If not, You Can Always Go Back!" I'm don't subscribe to that type of Russian Roulette for anyone.

You must be reading vastly different threads to me. The vast majority of time I see words to the effect "Don't begin to transition if you are not ready" or "transition is a desperate last resort".

There is a school of thought that considers hormone therapy to be a valid diagnostic tool to discover if someone might be TS, but I don't attend that school.

As for the rich guy who transitioned without following the SoC then de-transitioned in the same way, I don't think that he is a very good example of anything other than what greed can get you.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Electrolysis is not "trying it"...

a RLT should be well considered before attempted...it's not a try it you'll like it thing ...its a step by step approach ...

Transitioning poorly , without planning or without regard for consequences, is just as bad as suffering with GID..

Also Christine D's story was much more than unsuccessful transition..she took the whole world on her back by writing that op-ed..

[Frances]

Also Christine D's story was much more than unsuccessful transition..she took the whole world on her back by writing that op-ed..

The rich guy Rianna is talking about may be Samantha Kane.

[Kathryn Martin]

Very often people believe that transition is the answer to all of their problems. So often those that feel this way become convinced that if they only transition they will have a much better life. If you are in that place you become so vulnerable to be influenced and a site like this can be deadly mistake.

Most transsexuals know that it will never solve your problems as a person but that rather may give an equal chance.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The rich guy Rianna is talking about may be Samantha Kane.

Charles Kane is a great example of a goofball that never transitioned, but tried on a new gender ....and he did more damage to others than he could imagine.
The good news is that there are really no other examples of this kind of faux transition..

[Starling]

We have a member who was close friends with "the sportswriter," and she knows much more than I do about that sad story. But, in broad strokes, it seems that the lady detransitioned because of life losses she couldn't abide, particularly in relation to her family, and took her own life because she couldn't live with the humiliation she felt at turning back.

There's no evidence I know of that she embarked on a whim, or that she wasn't genuinely transsexual. It's a tragedy.

:) Lallie

[noeleena]

Hi,

One of the issue's i see is some dont accept them selfs for who they are then think by haveing H R T ,
surgery all thier probs will be sorted many times thats when they start. thinking life will be different & better does not allways work.
Knowing ones self being sure of who you are in the long term will work because you have with in the knowing who you are

Working through ones issue's & problems will do more good than any thing else being told just take these meds for a while so you mean at least 5 years then yes that may help , for 6 months thats a joke. because your body has to change in many ways & what changes does one expect the brain to just change oh your now a woman. sorry does not work like that,

yes i know of some who have done that & wished they had not others had surgery & could not live as or like a woman okay they tryed & were they women to start with. up to them to answer,

For my self iv allways been female / woman in the context we are talking about not trans no issues no problems just this is who i am no ? s needed to be asked . so how can i be so sure ,,,,i was born this way. thats why.

Each person will live with thier own selfs & will ether know who they are or will be in this as used pink fog & many dont know who they are, now this applys to some men & women the women i know about because i disscuse many of thier issues & problems & we talk about those so its not just the trans community .

One detail i have seen is the change has to be ...now.... i need the meds ...now ....or have the surgery... now....& dont work through the problems that one has. to late after the knife has been used. & then blame the surgeon after & that has happened in 6 cases i know of. Plus others have reverted back to thier former life as men with a few more issues,

Yes the sooner some start on meds is the best for those who really do need them & yes haveing surgery is just what is needed just its not for every one & so the gatekeepers are there to help this is the long term view & the best .

Tho i belive some of us dont need to go that way. if you like the now is the best, & each person is different,

& my lighter side = being insane & mad & nuts sure did help. we have to laugh at our selfs some times. other wise we would be mad....

...noeleena...

[Traci Elizabeth]

Very often people believe that transition is the answer to all of their problems. So often those that feel this way become convinced that if they only transition they will have a much better life. If you are in that place you become so vulnerable to be influenced and a site like this can be deadly mistake.

Most transsexuals know that it will never solve your problems as a person but that rather may give an equal chance.


Very well put Kathryn. Unfortunately, I think this happens more than anyone admits.

[sandra-leigh]

Electrolysis should be used as a diagnostic tool as much as HRT in a lot of cases; the dreamers would go away quicker.

Heh, I know what you mean. That test probably wouldn't work for me, though: I'm accustomed to curative pain through of my weekly back massages.


The trans person is much more frightened and concerned about their future...the trans person often denies and fights against the idea they are trans, while the pink fog person comes up with excuses why they can't transition, but otherwise thinks transition sounds wonderful if only it weren't so painful/expensive/destructive/difficult/etcetc...

You have set up a Catch-22 there. In Joseph Heller's famous novel of that title, set during the war, insane people can be medically discharged without difficulty -- but they have to ask to be discharged. And, since war is so horrible, to ask to be discharged is the sane thing to do, so the act of asking for the discharge is considered to establish that the person is sane enough that they are not eligible for discharge under that clause.

Or there is the joke / witticism, "The only people who should ever be elected to office are those who do not want the job."

Your 'stereotype' could be rephrased to some degree as, "The only people who should transition are those who do not want to."

Amongst the regulars in this section, the person who most strongly indicates that they are (probably) not transsexual, would probably be Me, whom might, after all, not be transsexual.

[kimdl93]

I don't know - it seems to me that its possible for a person to be a wannabe and go through the motions. But if one is emotionally week, impressionable and vulnerable, it seems they might also lack the deep resolve and self awareness that motivates a true transsexual to make changes in their life, particularly the many changes that are threatening to relationships, financial well being and general social acceptance.

[DanaR]

I think that anyone can get on the band wagon, so to speak. Just don't run if you are on the wrong road.

[ReineD]

I think there is a minute but real possibility that someone who is a cross-dresser lost in what CD's call "The Pink Fog" could persuade herself that she "must be TS". In such a case, though, I would not expect the delusion to last much beyond the very start of RLE if she even gets that far.

I agree, but will further add that the need to express femininity must be even more urgent if someone is closeted and feels he is not free to either dress in private at will or seek validation from others by going out, to the point of near obsession. I think this is natural, like a pressure cooker with no outlet for steam. So I'm not surprised that some members might believe themselves to be women, just based on the strength of a frustratingly unexpressed need for self-expression.

I also have often wondered how much the need to express femininity, for many CDers, is an innate gender expression (expressing his brand of femininity without all the bells and whistles like many if not most GGs out there) vs. a more compulsive need to be the idealized, beautiful and desirable woman. In other words if it is not more about being sexually desirable for some people than just being a regular, garden variety GG who doesn't get a lot of attention wherever she goes. I may be wrong in this, but it seems to me if a person is TS it would be more about expressing an inner gender than idealizing a life of being adored as a beautiful woman?

And then again there are people whose gender identity isn't fully male or fully female ... and so I imagine that in an attempt to try to conform to the binary (which is how ALL of us are raised to believe is true), the sense of gender identity would either fluctuate wildly or there would be a perpetual unhappiness in the default guy mode which would make it seem as if the individual *must* then have a fully feminine gender identity.

[kellycan27]

. I may be wrong in this, but it seems to me if a person is TS it would be more about expressing an inner gender than idealizing a life of being adored as a beautiful woman?

This is probably true, but.. Using myself as an example, when i was presenting as a boy my life was pretty mundane, boring even. I was the short, chubby,shy, and for the most part the invisible nerd. If i did receive some attention it was generally negative.
I missed out on a lot. Maybe it had to do with my age ( began living full time at 20), but I wanted to be pretty, and I wanted to be desirable , and I wanted the attention. Those things may have not been what drove me, but to me those things were certainly important, and it was of importance to other TS girls that I knew. What I discovered is that the better you can pull it off the higher the level of acceptance. Even if people knew.... it wasn't such a stretch to accept. Some guys still may not have wanted to date me, but they didn't seem repulsed by the fact.. Some of the reactions I got were. Gee that's to bad, because you're very pretty,rejections were handled in a kinder gentler way.:heehee: We all want to be accepted. I think that the difference between a gg who doesn't get, want (or care about) attention where ever she goes and a TS is that the GG is still a GG, but it's more difficult for the TS as our presentation can make us break us, so we try and go that extra mile. Let's face it..right wrong or indifferent in either the cis or TG world being attractive is going to open doors. Men are especially visual, and as we all know the pretty girls usually fare better. I don't think that my desires at that age were really much if any different than a cis girl. Being pretty, and or desirable may not be the goal, but rather an edge that allows one living a hard life....to do it just a little easier. Just my :2c:

Kel

http://youtu.be/k39P2MK6WPo Janis Ian

[Melissa Jill]

The thing that worries me most is that even though I know Im transexual, I worry Ive been influenced somehow into thinking it. I guess therapy will sort that out though.

[Mikaela]

In other words if it is not more about being sexually desirable for some people than just being a regular, garden variety GG who doesn't get a lot of attention wherever she goes. I may be wrong in this, but it seems to me if a person is TS it would be more about expressing an inner gender than idealizing a life of being adored as a beautiful woman?

And then again there are people whose gender identity isn't fully male or fully female ... and so I imagine that in an attempt to try to conform to the binary (which is how ALL of us are raised to believe is true), the sense of gender identity would either fluctuate wildly or there would be a perpetual unhappiness in the default guy mode which would make it seem as if the individual *must* then have a fully feminine gender identity.


Ugh, this is what scares me about myself. Although I've taken to dressing a little sexier at the behest of my gf, I still prefer the below-the-radar, look like a normal girl approach, especially if I might be seen by 'normal people'. I don't want the attention of either being a sexy girl or a metro/fem guy, so that means a decent amount of compartmentalizing.
If that's the case, it could imply there is more gender issues at stake no matter how I feel or rationalize things. And I don't like being wrong about myself. Then again, just the fact that I don't think I need to transition in anyway should be proof enough, but it doesn't tell me where on the spectrum I really am.

As far as the OP's question, I think that the community (both here on the forums and in real life) is a little over supportive. I've know crossdressers who've started HRT because they think it will make them prettier AND because others in the community assume that being a CD is a prequel to being a TS. Once you break out of the closet some, and especially once you are out in the world among others who've been denied something for so long, the level of encouragement goes beyond rational thought because they would not want to deny someone else.

And of course, as Reine mentioned, sometimes the thrill of self expression itself becomes the drive, not the gender identity. My female side smiles more, has more fun, has more people drawn to her, and does get attention (wanted or not). I could very well behave in a similar way in my normal life, but for some reason, do not. It can be very intoxicating to assume that that persona is the natural one and assume that I should be a woman because of it.

[Traci Elizabeth]

The thing that worries me most is that even though I know Im transexual, I worry Ive been influenced somehow into thinking it. I guess therapy will sort that out though.


Even though I have a transgendered Psychiatrist, I do not hold that the person being the therapist will necessarily guide you in the right direction. Most see their purpose as helping you see the light of your desires not to make a medical or psychiatric prognoses and to convince you that you are NOT transgendered. Often they too get caught up in the hype.

So that begs the question, "who do you trust?"

Unfortunately, I don't have an answer to that question for you. Hopefully RLE will give you enlightenment but that too can be at a horrible cost by the very nature of RLE itself. To be living in RLE by its own means that family, friends, associates, work, etc. know what you are doing and even if you realized that you are not transsexual during the RLE, you will have already open "Pandora's Box."

Now that posses another question. What happens when RLE works and you come to realize that you are not transsexual but since most of the damage has been done to your life already, do you move forward with your transition anyway?

[Melissa Jill]

Even though I have a transgendered Psychiatrist, I do not hold that the person being the therapist will necessarily guide you in the right direction. Most see their purpose as helping you see the light of your desires not to make a medical or psychiatric prognoses and to convince you that you are NOT transgendered. Often they too get caught up in the hype.

So that begs the question, "who do you trust?"

Unfortunately, I don't have an answer to that question for you. Hopefully RLE will give you enlightenment but that too can be at a horrible cost by the very nature of RLE itself. To be living in RLE by its own means that family, friends, associates, work, etc. know what you are doing and even if you realized that you are not transsexual during the RLE, you will have already open "Pandora's Box."

Now that posses another question. What happens when RLE works and you come to realize that you are not transsexual but since most of the damage has been done to your life already, do you move forward with your transition anyway?

I have just one question, what is RLE?

[kellycan27]

I have just one question, what is RLE?

REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE
living as a woman 24/7 365

[Melissa Jill]

Even though I have a transgendered Psychiatrist, I do not hold that the person being the therapist will necessarily guide you in the right direction. Most see their purpose as helping you see the light of your desires not to make a medical or psychiatric prognoses and to convince you that you are NOT transgendered. Often they too get caught up in the hype.

So that begs the question, "who do you trust?"

Unfortunately, I don't have an answer to that question for you. Hopefully RLE will give you enlightenment but that too can be at a horrible cost by the very nature of RLE itself. To be living in RLE by its own means that family, friends, associates, work, etc. know what you are doing and even if you realized that you are not transsexual during the RLE, you will have already open "Pandora's Box."

Now that posses another question. What happens when RLE works and you come to realize that you are not transsexual but since most of the damage has been done to your life already, do you move forward with your transition anyway?

Before I wanted to see a specialist because I wasn't sure if I was transexual. Now I need to see one because though I know I am I want to know why. I have faith that the system won't let me go too far if Im not meant to go that far, even if in my heart I feel like I need hormones. Telling people I work with I can deal with, Ive always felt like an outsider to people. Even my friends won't be too much of a bother as I know any real friends will accept me. Its my family I dread telling the most.

[kellycan27]

Before I wanted to see a specialist because I wasn't sure if I was transexual. Now I need to see one because though I know I am I want to know why. I have faith that the system won't let me go too far if Im not meant to go that far, even if in my heart I feel like I need hormones. Telling people I work with I can deal with, Ive always felt like an outsider to people. Even my friends won't be too much of a bother as I know any real friends will accept me. Its my family I dread telling the most.

If your therapist can tell you why you are TS.. Please enlighten the rest of us:heehee:

[ReineD]

Let's face it..right wrong or indifferent in either the cis or TG world being attractive is going to open doors. Men are especially visual, and as we all know the pretty girls usually fare better.

This is true. But, there is only a small percentage of women (if you average all women, all socio-economic backgrounds, all body types, and all ages including the women past menopause or who've had a few kids) who truly look beautiful the way I think you mean. And the rest of us just have to make do with what we have, and if we aren't the type to turn heads we very early on get used to not being in the limelight and we cultivate our other assets and talents. :) We seek to connect with people at different levels than based on our attractiveness quotient. So, we become satisfied when our lives revolve around family and a few close friends who share our interests.



And of course, as Reine mentioned, sometimes the thrill of self expression itself becomes the drive, not the gender identity. My female side smiles more, has more fun, has more people drawn to her, and does get attention (wanted or not).

This is a side issue to your main point, but here's a loaded question for you: Does your perception of the attention you are getting match the motive the other person has for giving you the attention? Let me explain:

I take it from your avatar that you are a beautiful, young blonde female (I can't tell that you're a GM in your avatar). When you are out as Mikaela, is it your perception that you are receiving the same time of attention as the attention that YOU would give a young, beautiful blonde (if you were single and you thought she was hot)? I mention this because depending on where you are getting this attention (nightclubs perhaps) and if it is a GLBT club and people know you are a GM, they could be attracted to you as a person because you present in an original, creative, and fantastic way since I'm guessing that a man who presents convincingly as a beautiful woman is quite a rarity? So in other words, you could have any manner of fantastically creative or beautiful appearances, even if you decided to go all out as a guy, and you would receive the same type of positive attention?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Mws79pegbKI/Tkjm-zwb04I/AAAAAAAABQM/v8BZPxCcdXE/s1600/cyberGoth6.jpg
http://2.fimagenes.com/i/4/3/23/am_67075_1352989_146555.jpg

Or in this picture ... I can't help but think both the girl and the guy would receive the same type of attention, just because they are each so attractive and well put together:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-43TkERsD05Y/Td1dzFIsivI/AAAAAAAAAIQ/27Lsyyc98ZE/s1600/00530fullscreen.jpg

If people have no idea that you are a genetic male and they believe you are a young, beautiful GG, then you can just ignore my question. :p

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The thing that worries me most is that even though I know Im transexual, I worry Ive been influenced somehow into thinking it. I guess therapy will sort that out though.

I was deeply worried about this as well.. i spent a couple hundred therapy bucks wondering about this..

think in terms of therapy helping you to sort it out for yourself...

[LeaP]

Traci,

I think the question is excellent and important enough to make it into a site FAQ. The responses in this thread have also been some of the best I've read on the site (and I've read through a lot of history), taken as a whole.

I think it's possible but the implications, while not trivial, are ultimately limited by the realities of transition, as several have indicated. I take the question seriously enough, however, to have considered the impact of the site on my own thinking - and I'm neither weak emotionally nor impressionable. Those who know me well would find the latter extremely funny, in fact. I may be a bit vulnerable, but I'm cagey enough to suspend judgement on things until I start seeing a therapist (appt Jan. 11). If I have any exposure, it's more likely from a tendency toward obsession. But I perceive and feel differences between my need to deal with gender issues versus the things over which I'll typically obsess. One qualitative difference is that the latter are focused (like a laser) on things I like. I invariably pursue them because they are pleasurable or rewarding. There is nothing pleasurable in dealing with gender. Things just seem to get worse - but the need to know, to get to whatever the answer is, only seems to grow. From a quantitative perspective, I know how long my obsessive cycles run, and I'm many multiples thereof past expiration date on that account.

I fear the answer, partly because its an unknown, partly because of what I suspect. So much so, in fact, that I've considered suspending my participation - not because the site is creating something that isn't there, but because it, like a therapist, provides an anvil on which to bash the issues. To borrow a phrase from one of Anne's recent posts, I'm getting emotionally exhausted. Thing is, this isn't new and while I'm giving it the most serious attention of my life right now, I've suffered though this for over 50 years. I also started this focus well before joining the site. It was triggered by coming out (as a crossdresser and transgender), with completely unanticipated consequences. Still, several of my comments speak directly to the question. I also see where someone can gain a conceptual framework from participation that can be misused in a variety of ways. It's potentially dangerous.

Despite dangers, you can't overstate the site's positive impact on people's understanding of realities, whatever the potential for self-delusion. There are a lot of serious people here from whom a thoughtful and careful member can learn. And if a framework can be misused, it can also be invaluable for understanding.

The experience behind the members posting in this section in particular is earned the hard way. The perception of many crossdresser-identified members with respect to the transsexual members is that they are ferocious! I had warning after warning in PMs the first time I posted here. After sticking my head in and finding it still attached, I find you to be a tolerable bunch. There is, however, absolutely no bullshit here. Zip, zero, nada. The point being that someone impressionable that is looking for self-delusion support is indeed going to have their head taken off. So, in my opinion, the risk to the typical crossdresser is low. Hope mentioned the responsibility of the participants. It's here, if not always in the crossdresser area (see Mikaela's comments). In spades.

What of the transgender-identified, the mid-pathers? Are they at greater risk? Maybe, and I've been there for a long time. My thinking has been moving toward something closer to what Sandra Leigh described, that there's perhaps more commonality between the transgender-identified and the transsexual than with crossdressers. As is oft-stated on the forum, the average crossdresser doesn't spend two minutes of his life questioning his identity and most are adamant about their maleness (a neverending source of taunts by some, but I digress). I do and I'm not. Reine spoke of female idolotry among crossdressers (a frequent thread topic in itself, actually). I don't sense this in the writings of most mid-pathers or transsexuals. She wrote of binary gender pressure. I do feel that at times. As a non-gendered person, an identity to which I'm clinging precariously for the time being, there are times I wish I were something instead of a non-entity. That something, though, would have to be female. I would quite literally rather die than be male. Is transitioning a panacea? Not for me. I would be in unpassable hell, unaccepted outside the trans community, and the chance of my present life, good, bad, and indifferent, completely collapsing is sky-high.

The notion that transsexuality might be a broader spectrum isn't exactly new - it's encapsulated into the original Benjamin scale, for example - but clearly isn't current Psych thinking. Some can fix their place relatively easily. Sandra-Leigh is one. I thought I had until fairly recently. Even though I tend to consider transgender identity more transsexual than not these days, a view that is definitely arising from my forum participation, I don't have any confusion whatsoever that certain identity and certainty threshholds must be crossed before one starts thinking about transitions. It's also the dark place and abyss that is the substance of the fear. Were depression not threatening to take me by other means, I'd gladly take the depression.

In the end, I have to acknowledge some site influence. I'm mindful of it. I believe I know where it plays. My guardrails are my lovely, insightful wife, upcoming therapy. And you. So bash away. Just be polite while you are beating me bloody.

Lea

[Traci Elizabeth]

Lea,

No bashing from me. You expressed your feelings and perceptions beautifully. It's interesting the shoes we all wear - so different - yet our soles wear basically the same as we walk our own personalized journey.

Ultimately, we all seek the end of this journey we are on. For some of us the end of this journey in our lives will be our salvation. For others it will be disappointing, and for others failure is in store. If, we here, can help calm the seas of even the most experienced sailors, we have done well and this site has served its purpose.

[Mikaela]

This is a side issue to your main point, but here's a loaded question for you: Does your perception of the attention you are getting match the motive the other person has for giving you the attention? Let me explain:

I take it from your avatar that you are a beautiful, young blonde female (I can't tell that you're a GM in your avatar). When you are out as Mikaela, is it your perception that you are receiving the same time of attention as the attention that YOU would give a young, beautiful blonde (if you were single and you thought she was hot)? I mention this because depending on where you are getting this attention (nightclubs perhaps) and if it is a GLBT club and people know you are a GM, they could be attracted to you as a person because you present in an original, creative, and fantastic way since I'm guessing that a man who presents convincingly as a beautiful woman is quite a rarity? So in other words, you could have any manner of fantastically creative or beautiful appearances, even if you decided to go all out as a guy, and you would receive the same type of positive attention?
If people have no idea that you are a genetic male and they believe you are a young, beautiful GG, then you can just ignore my question. :p

I'm in a TG club, so I would assume that they realize what I am. I'm actually very blind to how people perceive me, I can't fathom why I get compliments. I will say that my gf has basically said to me what you are saying. Will take it to PMs to not derail the thread.

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

Isn't this site meant to help? If one questions themselves and the answers given help them uncover themselves as trans then they have something that they may never have realized. If one cannot learn from others then why do we need schools and teachers. The thing is they at least know they maybe more than being a non-transsexual person. The site is being influential to create questioning and reasoning.
I fear the person who reads everything as gospel truth then acts on it, fails to question and reason and has no ability to become an individual as they are, just a copy of another persons ideas is falsely led to a belief that they are not as they actually should be. This, I feel is dangerous.
Like a child with a new toy, a person reading a good book, an intoxicating movie, a new love. Do they influence the person using them? Yes and for some they may falsely lead a person into bad decisions and so affect their lives negatively.
I do not trust many, so I question a lot and read and analyze because I need to know. I suggest, I acknowledge and I churn topics over and over. I spend most of my time in the Transsexual Forum now because I like the topics and I am learning a lot.
So Yes I think the site is influential, but to how much? I think depends on the person's needs and emotions. It has influenced me to seek more and read more widely but I am still as confused as ever, but that has always been me.
As long as the site helps all and influences people to read more and seek help then I feel the site is doing what is required of it.

[ReineD]

I'm in a TG club, so I would assume that they realize what I am.

... realize who you are. :hugs:

[Beth-Lock]

Isn't this a dark thread? And right before the problematic holidays, when so many of us get depressed anyway. And all the happiness of the season to you too.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Heh, I know what you mean. That test probably wouldn't work for me, though: I'm accustomed to curative pain through of my weekly back massages.



You have set up a Catch-22 there. In Joseph Heller's famous novel of that title, set during the war, insane people can be medically discharged without difficulty -- but they have to ask to be discharged. And, since war is so horrible, to ask to be discharged is the sane thing to do, so the act of asking for the discharge is considered to establish that the person is sane enough that they are not eligible for discharge under that clause.

Or there is the joke / witticism, "The only people who should ever be elected to office are those who do not want the job."

Your 'stereotype' could be rephrased to some degree as, "The only people who should transition are those who do not want to."

Amongst the regulars in this section, the person who most strongly indicates that they are (probably) not transsexual, would probably be Me, whom might, after all, not be transsexual.

I hear you..i loved catch 22.. i think you take it too far tho...

I'm not saying a person that says they are not ts is or isn't anything..there is no diagnostic tool... but there are "tells"...and i say tells because they are quite often misread, and they can be masked...

99.99% of the population says they are not ts...that doesnt mean they are LOL

i'm saying that a person with later in life GID almost always suffers it greatly... and the enormity of the issue weighs heavily..they know their choices are stark..it is a "do it" or else situation...and both answers suck

the cd has many more options, including a satisfying home or outside dressing life, and including getting caught up in it to the point where they are fantasizing and obsessing over transition...yet transition is not in the cards, in their hearts they know it, and so there is a longing but no dread or fear..

seeing that dread is the tell..but its just a tell

[Traci Elizabeth]

Isn't this a dark thread? And right before the problematic holidays, when so many of us get depressed anyway. And all the happiness of the season to you too.


Dark? I think not. Informative & inquisitive? Yes!

[kellycan27]

This is true. But, there is only a small percentage of women (if you average all women, all socio-economic backgrounds, all body types, and all ages including the women past menopause or who've had a few kids) who truly look beautiful the way I think you mean. And the rest of us just have to make do with what we have, and if we aren't the type to turn heads we very early on get used to not being in the limelight and we cultivate our other assets and talents. :) We seek to connect with people at different levels than based on our attractiveness quotient. So, we become satisfied when our lives revolve around family and a few close friends who share our interests.

I guess I didn't articulate my thoughts very well, and I think that your life experience trumps mine. Maybe I combined two different thoughts. What I was trying to express was that ( this is just my feeling) That no matter what or under what circumstances a GG is still a GG. Fat, skinny, pretty .. not so pretty she still has the edge over being TS simply by virture of being a biological woman. By edge I don't mean "competition" between GG's an TS but rather in such things as relationships, jobs, and just plain acceptance or even just making our way in the world if you will. Maybe I am dead wrong but it seems to me that being an attractive TS sort of levels the playing field a bit in some areas.


You have to go with what you know
I don't have a lot of experience with relationships, or life in general to be perfectly honest, especially at the age of 20 when I began living full time. I didn't have a lot of reference, so I basically had to judge things by what I saw rather than what I had learned. Up to that point in my life what I saw was that the attractive GG's fared much better than the not so attractive GG's. They were more popular, the had the cool b/f's, got invited to the cool party's etc. This ( at the time) was very attractive to me. These were the things that I wanted as a girl... I was very young at the time, and I am sure it is attractive to a lot of young GG's as well. Almost at age 30 ( yikes!) I still see where this is true. Maybe as I get older, more experienced and better established my prospective and my priorities may change may change, but right now it's what I know, it's what seems to work.... for me anyway. Maybe I am shallow, maybe I don't have a clue.. you tell me. I am just trying to eek out my little slice of the pie.

Kel

[Melissa Jill]

the cd has many more options, including a satisfying home or outside dressing life, and including getting caught up in it to the point where they are fantasizing and obsessing over transition...yet transition is not in the cards, in their hearts they know it, and so there is a longing but no dread or fear..

seeing that dread is the tell..but its just a tell

argh, this is what confuses me so much, I have no dread or fear. But I just put that down due to me accepting what is already upcoming. Or that Im in such hell now it will actually be an improvement.
Either that or Im still having a hard time accepting it and think maybe itll go away.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

dont get confused...its just one piece of info, one observation based on lots of experience

it is probably more aimed at mid life people like me that had signficant male lives.. more aimed at comparing people that have crossdressed for many years

[ReineD]

That no matter what or under what circumstances a GG is still a GG. Fat, skinny, pretty .. not so pretty she still has the edge over being TS simply by virture of being a biological woman.–––

I see what you mean about GGs having an enviable position just by virtue of being a GG, in a TS's eyes. If I were born in your shoes I can't help but believe that I'd feel the same way, and I'm not saying this to be condescending. I would give my soul to be the woman I feel inwardly and I don't know that I'd handle it with as much grace and fortitude as you all seem to. It makes sense that you would want to be the best woman you can be.


I saw was that the attractive GG's fared much better than the not so attractive GG's. They were more popular, the had the cool b/f's, got invited to the cool party's etc.

Yes, this is absolutely true. The beautiful girls seemed to have the world at their feet. I remember in high school envying the popular girls, I suppose in the same way that the nerdier guys envy the popularity of the tall, good-looking, confident guys who get all the popular girls. It seemed as if the "elite" always found each other. And the rest of us? Pfffft. We had to make do with each other's pimples and braces. But eventually everyone finds their niche, graduates from college, and settles down into their adult lives to raise families.

But as average women who weren't so popular, we grew into confident women secure in our other talents and accomplishments that stay with us the rest of our lives. And the experienced, mature woman feels sorry for the GG who does source her core identity from her looks or her effects on men. Beauty fades (much like the super-stardom of a sports figure) at a fairly young age, and unless someone has a stronger, deeper source of self-identity, she's in for a shock once she reaches her 40s or 50s. I've seen such women try to hang on to their looks after everyone stopped caring because they were paying attention to the next batch of young, beautiful women, and it's really sad.

Still, I do see that a TS's wish to be beautiful is not the same as a GG whose only source of identity is from her beauty.

[Badtranny]

Wow I cannot believe I missed this thread!

Especially since I was just thinking the other day about this very thing. To come at this another way, I was thinking about the idea of a linear progression towards transition and how some might mistake it for a competition or a hierarchy. I don't know why, but it occurred to me recently that some may think of a TS as the penultimate, as the goal worthy of attainment and in that regard I think this board could definitely be influential.

There are some amazingly well adjusted CD's that hang around here but there's also a fringe element that I'm certain is mentally unstable. The TS population is so tiny that I feel like I know most of them already and I would say that there is a camaraderie that a new CD might find appealing. The CD population is so vast and so varied that you could become acquainted with a dozen regular TS girls fairly quickly while spending months to sort through the hundreds of posts and threads ranging from the color of underwear to flying pretty. From coming out to the wife to shaving your legs. TS issues seem to be fewer and much more focused, which makes sense because so much of what the CD's worry about is hardly a blip in our airspace.

The reality of course it's that it's not a competition. Heck it's not even linear. I would say that CD and TS have so little in common that they're barely even family, much less sisters. The one thing that binds us, the clothes, hardly seems like much of a bond.
No this isn't some kind of odd hierarchy where the TS girls stand over the lowly CD's and choose who is worthy to come into the fold. In truth I think the TS girls are a tortured bunch. I feel for all of them, whether I like them or not because we are all in a tough position. There is nothing enviable about being so dysphoric that you make a conscious decision to end your life as you know it. To tell everyone, family, work, friends that you are a woman inside and you are taking steps to live accordingly.

Is it plausible that someone who is vulnerable could be led down a TS path when that is not really who they are? Yes, but I don't think a bogus transition is possible. We often talk about the pain of electrolysis being a good barrier and I believe it is, (there is no way in hell I would do it otherwise) but there is an even better barrier and that is disclosure. Only a truly committed individual would transition openly and invite the associated scrutiny and ridicule into their lives.

This is a great thread and some of my favorites have made excellent points. I wonder what some of the notable CD's have to say about it. Is this site dangerous to the impressionable?

[Starling]

Having come here hoping I could be satisfied by dressing occasionally, I soon realized I was not that lucky. I needed to live as a woman, in every way. Yes, I wondered at one point whether what I read here made me want to be TS because it seemed more authentic, or something. Then I remembered all the decades of existential torment and had a good laugh at my own expense.

:) Lallie

[Rianna Humble]

When I came here, I was already questioning whether cross-dressing would do it for me. I think I was influenced by this site because some of the members cared enough to urge me to caution when I seemed to be getting carried away by events.

Nothing on this site was able to make me want to be TS, some things may have helped to confirm what I already knew.

[Kelsy]

This is a great thread and there is a lot to contemplate here. I would place myself in the impressionable group and have had to consider this question in depth. My daughter made that accusation when I came out to her and I had to review this subject with my therapist. The conclusions I have come to have solidified my view if myself. There was a time when there were no influencing outside forces in my life and my past history is replete with this internal identity struggle which would surface in this longing to be female. I was well acquainted with confusion. I would act out by crossdressing. So there was a thread of behavior from the age of five that I have had to consciously and continually deal with.
The Transsexual forum does not promote transsexuality but, atleast from what I read, gives stern warning to those who would enter transition ill advisedly. I have understood and have taken into serious consideration everything everyone has written here. One must be absolutely sure of who they are before making this journey. This is not a game or a fantasy.
Some might say that electrolysis is a good road block to the wannabe transsexual and no well-adjusted male (that may be an oxymoron) would ever consider such a thing let alone removing one precious jewels but I think the risk to your personal life and relationships etc. is a severe litmus test. The truest thing I learned, and it may well have been Katie who said it, is that transition may mean losing every relationship you care about and you need to be prepared for that. The risk extends to your financial wellbeing and possible violence.
The fruits of following through with what you know to be a need can be bitter and the losses staggering and the weak will crumble under the stresses. I have come to the conclusion that to go here you are one of two things and I wouldn’t use the word impressionable. You are either stark raving mad or you are transsexual! Now is there anyone here who didn’t atleast consider the first before they realized the second.
I would like to say that ” It does get better” and to anyone who finds themselves in a difficult and lonely place this holiday season you are not alone and there is hope! Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah.
Kelsy

[sandra-leigh]

I remember in high school envying the popular girls, I suppose in the same way that the nerdier guys envy the popularity of the tall, good-looking, confident guys who get all the popular girls. It seemed as if the "elite" always found each other.

Thinking back, I was probably considered the nerdiest guy out of the year ahead of me, my year, and the year behind me. It wasn't something I cultivated, and it wasn't "fair" -- but sometimes social dynamics just happen that way. There are subtle and unwritten clues by which groups pick out a Victim, and I was the one picked. Only the independents could risk being friends with me.

What did I envy?

I envied Being Left Alone. Indifference would have been easier than the insults and being scorned.

I envied being able to make friends. Not a lot, but enough to know that more than 3 of my 1000 peers would care if I was there or not.

And really, that was about it.

The group socializations that I could see in high school based to a non-trivial extent on exclusion. I did not care to be a part of that.

I was a "late bloomer"; the few girls I "took a interest in" were usually the smart girls.

And despite being despised, I knew that it was because I was also envied, as I had a fairly easy time getting high marks, and I interacted well with the teachers. I was probably considered part of an elite myself, part of The People Who Would End Up Running Things. An instinctive class barrier, even though I came from the same social class as everyone else around.


Some might say that electrolysis is a good road block to the wannabe transsexual and no well-adjusted male (that may be an oxymoron) would ever consider such a thing let alone removing one precious jewels but I think the risk to your personal life and relationships etc. is a severe litmus test.

Some of us may be narcissistic and not care about the relationships. But it seems to me that a narcissist seldom suffers physical pain well.

Others of us may have so few relationships that there isn't much to lose; if someone one is going to be lonely anyone, they might as well do what they want. The physical pain then becomes a variety of test of dedication.

What portion of us don't have much to lose? Probably a higher portion than one might expect: a person having difficulty living in their assigned birth gender is less likely to find themselves with numerous strong relationships.

[Fractured]

I envied being able to make friends. Not a lot, but enough to know that more than 3 of my 1000 peers would care if I was there or not.

Some of us may be narcissistic and not care about the relationships. But it seems to me that a narcissist seldom suffers physical pain well.

Others of us may have so few relationships that there isn't much to lose; if someone one is going to be lonely anyone, they might as well do what they want. The physical pain then becomes a variety of test of dedication.

What portion of us don't have much to lose? Probably a higher portion than one might expect: a person having difficulty living in their assigned birth gender is less likely to find themselves with numerous strong relationships.
These thoughts seems to be ringing some bells for me. I've managed to survive several facial reconstruction surgeries, not having a stable childhood, and being the loner for so long that someone saying that path X is rough and to be avoided if at all possible doesn't really serve as a deterrent. Loss of friends and family? Okay, what friends do I have to lose. Oh, look, there are none. Family, that's a bit tougher. But still not a deterrent enough. Electrolysis? Money is more of a concern than pain. But with no friends and no family, then there should be sufficient money not spent on social activities that can be spend on electrolysis. Pain? Life is pain, get used to it. Loss of a job? There are lots of people struggling and surviving, why should it be any different for someone transitioning? It'll be tough, but it can be survived.

Thoughts like these could be used to dismiss the wise words of experienced women. Yes, this site and the posts can persuade an impressionable mind. And the most impressionable minds would be those that don't have the social structures or mental toughness and inward reflection to help them realize the right path them.

I don't want to survive. I've done that my whole friggin' life. I want to live! I've only done that a few times.

[ReineD]

The conclusions I have come to have solidified my view if myself. There was a time when there were no influencing outside forces in my life and my past history is replete with this internal identity struggle which would surface in this longing to be female.

Do you long to be a female, or do you know already that you are?

[Kelsy]

The longing to be female was something I did not understand when I was younger. For me the whole discovery of who I am has evolved. When I was very young I experienced feeling that something wasn't right, I didn't fit, I would have preferred to sit and play with the girls, I was very quiet and didn't care for the rough and tumble of the boys. Yes that's only way I could describe it. It was something I didn't understand. Did I know I was a boy? yep, everyone told me so in not so many words, was I really aware of what the differences were, nope! I had this confusion going on. I could only gage where I fit by where I felt comfortable. I developed as a feeler, emotional, I cared for the way others felt in a way that my male peers had not idea about! Do I long to be female well that is a tough one because intellectually I understand that chromosomally I will always be male. Physically I am male. This is where the bulk of my struggle lies I have a severe body dysphoria. Emotionally I am female - mentally I am predominately female with some male crossover. My mind wars with my body. I know mentally and emotionally I am a woman.

I knew when I wrote that that someone would question it, Fact is I didn’t know what the heck I was. With alot of struggle, the help of some good friends, my SO, a good girl friend, my therapist and even this web site, I have discovered the answers to my questions and I find myself at peace with that discovery and quite happy despite the personal losses! If I had had a choice I would have been born female. I think that was the intention – no one asked me!

Thanks Reine

[Kelsy]

Fractured, Can I say that your name really says it all for me and probably for many here and I need to say another thing
What ever your back ground is this stuggle is something we all share! Finding that peace and having a life is a shared desire!!
Some could look at my past and say I had it all but no, not really I was fractured, broken, incomplete and pretending. Pretending to be happy,
pretending to be confident and together, pretending to be male. Seriously If I had delt with this years ago my life could have been so different, that is my only reget. I have finally discovered that life is offering me some incredible choices. I'm with you, I don't want to just survive, I want to live!

[kellycan27]

I see what you mean about GGs having an enviable position just by virtue of being a GG, in a TS's eyes. If I were born in your shoes I can't help but believe that I'd feel the same way, and I'm not saying this to be condescending. I would give my soul to be the woman I feel inwardly and I don't know that I'd handle it with as much grace and fortitude as you all seem to. It makes sense that you would want to be the best woman you can be.

I don't know that I would use the word "envy". It's more about getting along in their "world" rather than directly competing with them. Being the "best woman I can be" is more for my own edification, rather than someone else. I am pretty sure that in the close to three years that I have been posting you've noticed that I have a pretty good self image :heehee:

[Starling]

Kelly, you may have to change your name to Heather.

:heehee: Lallie

[ReineD]

I don't know that I would use the word "envy". It's more about getting along in their "world" rather than directly competing with them. Being the "best woman I can be" is more for my own edification, rather than someone else. I am pretty sure that in the close to three years that I have been posting you've noticed that I have a pretty good self image :heehee:

I know what you mean and I didn't mean to imply any jealousy or competition. I rather meant "a desire to". When I envy something, it is because I desire it for myself. It is a need.

My oldest son stopped talking to me for 3 years during the divorce/custody thing. He picked sides and he chose his father. I felt an deep emptiness inside when this happened that is way beyond mere jealousy or petty competition. Jealousy and competition didn't even come into it since I believe that my son can be close to both parents. I envied the closeness that my son had with his father and I also wanted it for myself.

:hugs: