Pastor

[Steph.TS]

I've setup a meeting with my pastor to discuss why I believe it's ok to be trans. I'm nervous about admitting to my pastor that I want to be a woman, and I'm also nervous that he may turn around and tell me that it is wrong.

any advice you can give me about how to approach this, how to overcome the fear, maybe some scripture that can be used to justify being trans etc...

[suzy1]

It seems to me that it’s another case of religion interfering with people’s lives.

If you think it’s important what this man thinks about how you live your life then fine. But what a shame that religion can restrict some people from having the freedom they deserve.

It’s a funny old world we live in.


SUZY

[noeleena]

Hi, Steph,

You do not need the aprovale of a man no matter who he is to be who you know your self to be, Do you have to prove who you are, reguardless of what he thinks its not up to him..

The ? i would be asking is not him , you need to ask your self .....ARE ..YOU.....a woman to start with,

& what the ....HELL.... has it to do with him any way what or who you are. this concerns you & only you.....

Im a woman tho different I S female . so who's going to tell me what i am no one , only i know what i am.......

You see what im saying.

How did i approach this with those i know i told them the same thing i told every one. im a female / woman who is different. & im liveing in a way that is true to who i have allways been.

The people who can not accept those of us who are different are the ones who wont show love or acceptance so leave them. for get the Bible , man will twist it to suit himself so youll never ever get any where,

Now iv been around those who are members of many different chuch groups & know how its going to go with many. now i do have many friends with in those groups & yes im accepted based on being a person first & as a woman no problems yet i know some are anti any thing thats out side thier teaching or thinking so i just move on they have shown them selfs for who they are , so end of .

I had one Pastor try & confuse many issue;s & he did not know what he was talking about yet his wife & 23 other women accepted i was nothing more than a woman so you see its a matter of understanding tho some dont wont to in this case the pastor.

Dont even think of useing the bible unless you know it back to front & even then you need to be very carefull of the translastions
You do not .....NEED... to justify who you are.

As i was told some years ago if you are a woman then be one, some times we need to take the bull by the horns & take control of .... what ever is bugging us & sort it out not let others tell you what to do.

In fact you dont need to tell him any thing or even ask tho it would be nice to tell him if you know him & his wife & she should be a part of this as well. that you are a woman & you.....WILL.... be liveing as one, dont use trans any thing its about being a woman, not this...... wonting to be one, ether,,

Tho thinking about this i would sit down & write a nice letter make a few copys one for him & his wife & id say the elders will be a part of this as well. if you hopefully intend to stay with them .
not knowing the group your with makes it harder to know how they will react , tho i know its based on thier teachings for some any ways,

all the best in this , because it can be hard i know what its like so dont be discouraged , if it goes wrong .

If your strong in your self then thats makes it better for you,

...noeleena...

[Rianna Humble]

I've setup a meeting with my pastor to discuss why I believe it's ok to be trans. I'm nervous about admitting to my pastor that I want to be a woman, and I'm also nervous that he may turn around and tell me that it is wrong.

Steph,

I hope this does not come across too negatively, but it looks like you are setting up yet another roadblock for yourself. The biggest difference being that now you are asking your pastor to dissuade you instead of asking your mother.

Instead of searching out all the possible reasons that other people might have for you not to transition, I think that you need to give serious consideration to exactly who you are and what you want to get from the rest of your life.

If the answer turns out to be that you are not a woman trapped in a man's body then it is OK to admit that.

On the other hand, if the answer turns out to be that your gender dysphoria has become so acute that you can no longer function as a male then you need to face that fact and get on with what you need to do without searching out every Tom, Dick and Harry who will present you with their own list of bigoted opinions why you might be doing the wrong thing.

No-one on this site can tell you what is right for your life, but neither can your Pastor, your parents or anyone else you seek out to try to dissuade you.

Please try to assimilate this fact: With the exception of a few dedicated professionals no cisgendered person can even begin to imagine what being transgender is like.

[LeaP]

I've setup a meeting with my pastor to discuss why I believe it's ok to be trans. I'm nervous about admitting to my pastor that I want to be a woman, and I'm also nervous that he may turn around and tell me that it is wrong.

any advice you can give me about how to approach this, how to overcome the fear, maybe some scripture that can be used to justify being trans etc...

Dualing scripture approaches are pointless. The history of religion itself can be viewed as an exercise in proof-texting. It goes nowhere. Aside from that, assuming your pastor has any reasonable level of education and training in theology, you don't have a prayer in that kind of discussion. (forgive the pun)

It sounds like you are seeking external justification. The real question is why? Religious people often confuse their feelings of accountability to God with accountability to their pastor. It doesn't help that many religious leaders encourage that. If your pastor helps you explore and understand your own feelings, have at it. If it turns to demonstrating why you are wrong, walk away.

Lea

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Steph --

My take on this is that you think this is something you must...i have posted to you many times about how i see your threads are often about roadblocks you put up for yourself..

I say if you are resolute in your plan, and you know you are prepared to transition, no matter what, then by all means see your pastor.. otherwise its too early... and we both know you are not ready...

I remember crying to my mom (we are roman catholic) and one of the things i said to her in anger and helplessness was that God hates me, that i'm some kind of demon...she said simply..

"oh sweetie, Jesus loves you"

that was it... she summed up the good things about religion in 5 words to me... i never thought about the "religious" aspects of all this ever again.. and i don't need a priest (and i respect good priest's alot) to tell me right and wrong... i know it in my heart

[Steph.TS]

Noeleena,

I'm not allowing it to get to the point of what translation are you using, I'm going back to the original languages, and I'm showing what the verses that people uses against us says in the original language. I'm trying to dig in deep with scripture and show that Jesus himself even spoke in favor of this, I'm using the strong's concordance to translate the problem words that give people the firepower to attack us. it's my hope that I'll hear that I'm right, my mom can hear this and stop fearing I'll go to hell, and I'll have peace known that I'm not simply twisting scripture to suit my own purposes.

Rianna,

I am going to the pastor not to find a new road block, but because one has been created by my mom, she told me that is I go through with this she's not sure she'd see me in heaven. her delicate way of saying I'd end up in hell. my friend I came out too and my therapist both think I should confront my pastor, my friend because he knows my faith is important, and if my faith is correct whatever I do has eternal consequences. My therapist wants me to do this because I think she can see my faith in causing me issues on this front. but even if it goes south I'm meeting my therapist immediately after my meeting with my pastor. so I won't have to wait long to discuss my feelings.

If I get the all clear from my pastor, I'm hoping my mom can accept me on this issue. I'm hoping my family will be ok with me and allow me to transition.

everyone else,

I'm not looking for approval from my pastor, what I'm looking for is my knowledge of scripture is fairly weak, both my family and I trust my pastor's interpretation of scripture, the number of pastors that we find holding to scripture is becoming fewer and fewer. I'm going to present my argument to my pastor show him what the Bible says (atleast what I have found it to say) then I want him to either say 'yes you're right' or use scripture itself to fire back show me it's wrong. this method is approved by the bible: 2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" IF I'm wrong, I'm allowing someone that studies and teaches the Bible as a living to using scripture to correct me, and give me correct doctrine.

[ArleneRaquel]

Where is the passage in the New Testament that has Jesus saying anything about Cd'ing ?

[Melody Moore]

If I get the all clear from my pastor, I'm hoping my mom can accept me on this issue. I'm hoping my family will be ok with me and allow me to transition.

I have to disagree with what you are saying Steph, this comment here proves to me that you are
still creating roadblocks for yourself. I really have an issue with this statement because you are
waiting on approval from your family to transition. You transition for yourself, NOT for your family
or anyone else. You DON'T need your family's approval. Hell if we all waited for our families to
approve of our transitions we would all be waiting or worse still, 6 foot under - DEAD!

LIVE YOUR LIFE FOR YOURSELF & NOT OTHER PEOPLE!

[Miranda-E]

I've setup a meeting with my pastor to discuss why I believe it's ok to be trans. I'm nervous about admitting to my pastor that I want to be a woman, and I'm also nervous that he may turn around and tell me that it is wrong.

any advice you can give me about how to approach this, how to overcome the fear, maybe some scripture that can be used to justify being trans etc...

I doubt any good will come of this.

[Steph.TS]

Where is the passage in the New Testament that has Jesus saying anything about Cd'ing ?

not CD'ing but Matthew 19:12 says "For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.” obviously SRS and HRT didn't exist in the Biblical times, so I am stretching it a bit but as I interpret this verse, it's saying it doesn't matter what we do to our genitals leave them intact, or circumcise them, or remove them, and dare I say or modify them to be interior (or exterior for the FTM) God has a place in heaven for us if we are saved through his son.

that's the point I hope to drive home to my pastor.

[GeorgiaHall]

not CD'ing but Matthew 19:12 says "For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.” obviously SRS and HRT didn't exist in the Biblical times, so I am stretching it a bit but as I interpret this verse, it's saying it doesn't matter what we do to our genitals leave them intact, or circumcise them, or remove them, and dare I say or modify them to be interior (or exterior for the FTM) God has a place in heaven for us if we are saved through his son.

that's the point I hope to drive home to my pastor.

I'll be interested to see what his response is to that verse. I like others think this is going to probably turn out negatively for you. But thankfully, you will be seeing your therapist right after for some clarification or reassurance. Good luck on this meeting!

[Rianna Humble]

I am going to the pastor not to find a new road block, but because one has been created by my mom, she told me that is I go through with this she's not sure she'd see me in heaven.

She obviously isn't sure enough of herself to know whether her hatred of your transition will ever be forgiven.

[Julia_in_Pa]

I was raised in a very evangelical Christian household.

Because of this I have a very sceptical view of Christian clergy.

I know not all are negative but I truly believe that me being who and what I am is of no business to any pastor or church.

It is the pastors burden to accept you not the other way around.

I'm very sure due to you writing this that you are very connected to your church and your faith but because of who and what you are YOU MUST BE ON GUARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You can very easily be thrown to the lions so to speak concerning your revelation all in the name of Christ loving the sinner.

People care about you here and I write this because I care about you and you being hurt by someone who very well could be blinded by religious dogma when it comes to our situation.

Be careful Steph.


Julia

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I have respect for your need to seeking the blessing of scripture.

I hope you get what you are looking for.. if you don't get the blessing however, you have put yourself in a horrible position.

Remember, everything is subject to interpretation..even scripture.

[Kimberly Long]

The Bible can be interrupted many different ways. I was a catholic and divorced, I went through counseling with the church. I was told that the laws of the church was made by man. If in my heart, with the feeling of god I wanted to take part in the bread and wine, I should do so.
Your pastor may be the finest person, but remember his interruption of the Bible and his personal feelings will come out. I am telling you talk to your god and do what in your heart.
I am about to face the same problem soon. I have not been to church fully dressed. I set on the front row of church twice a week, I have pierced earnings, french nails, and big C cups that show. At one point in the service we pass the piece by giving almost everyone a big hug, I know the can feel my bra straps or my boobs. To this point nothing has been said, but I am sure they know who I am, "A Female" or a person in transition.
I wish you the best.
Love Kimberly

[arbon]

If you have not looked at this page already maybe there is some information that might be useful to your situation

http://www.tsroadmap.com/mental/spirit.html

[Stephenie S]

MHO? Another roadblock. You already know exactly what your pastor is gonna say. Your thinking that you may be able to change his mind about scripture interpretation is fantasy.

The Old Testament is old. Also it is NOT the bible of Christianity. It's the Jewish Bible. The Old Testament is the wrong place to seek answers about your Christian faith. If you claim to be a Christian, then seek your answers from the words and teachings of Jesus Christ. After all, the Christian religion should be all about the words and teachings of Jesus Christ, right?. The words and teachings of Jesus Christ are in the New Testament. Jesus, you will find when you actually read the New Testament, has nothing at all to say about crossdressing or the transgender issue. Nothing. Zip. Nada. What you WILL find is that Jesus taught a whole lot about love of others (even those we don't particularly like) and the acceptance and forgivness of others. He had a lot of really valuable stuff to say. But sorry, nothing about your going to H**l for being TG. If your God can forgive your mother her hatred, She can find you a place together, I am sure.

S

[kimdl93]

Honestly, I don't think you owe the pastor any explanation at all. I don't know your particular denomination, but it seems that if you place value in religious doctrines, you're liable to be disappointed in his response. A few churches are accepting of TG and TS members, but they are rare.

I won't tell you what to believe, but will suggest that this is your life and a benevolent god would want you to live a happy and fullfilling existence, regardless of your gender identification or choice of clothing..

[Asako]

I'm not a church-goer or anything of the sort despite having faith. Yet, even I know that various religious type don't like us. However, one of the few times I had gone, I saw a priest do something that makes me think from time to time. He told us about a clay mug he had setting on the pedestal and how his grand daughter had made it for him. Then, he smashed the mug. His words were: "Just as a potter molds and forms the clay, God molds and forms us throughout our lives." Then, he furthered his example by saying that should our burdens break us like the mug he broke, He will be there to help us pick up the pieces and then resume his work with us. Beyond the first sentence, I don't remember the exact way he said it but I definitely remember what he meant with his words and actions.

If this goes badly for you Steph, your therapist will be there to help. I just hope you've planned for the worst because it sounds like you're certainly hoping for the best.

[LeaP]

not CD'ing but Matthew 19:12 says "For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.” obviously SRS and HRT didn't exist in the Biblical times, so I am stretching it a bit but as I interpret this verse, it's saying it doesn't matter what we do to our genitals leave them intact, or circumcise them, or remove them, and dare I say or modify them to be interior (or exterior for the FTM) God has a place in heaven for us if we are saved through his son.

that's the point I hope to drive home to my pastor.

This passage is about self-sacrifice in service to God. It has nothing to do with genitalia and nothing to do with gender. Some would argue (including me) that it has nothing to do with marriage or relationships. I can also easily think of a half-dozen ways this scripture can be turned against you - including your needing to sacrifice your desire to transition.

You also said:

"If I get the all clear from my pastor
...
I'm not looking for approval from my pastor"

I would say that you are.

Be careful.

Lea

[DanaR]

Wow, I hope this turns out the way that you would like it to. It seems to me that when you bring religion into it, there can be problems.

[Jonianne]

Steph, you sound like you are a young person and you sound like you are in an evangelical type church. If so, the chances are almost zero, that you are going to convince your pastor that being TS (or even CD for that matter) is OK, according to scripture.

The best and only real way to convince anyone, is to first know that you, yourself, are OK with God and then live a life that shows you love God and your fellow human beings. "You shall know them by their fruit."

Many religious people will never be OK, but some people of faith will open their eyes and see that God lives and works in the hearts of a lot more people than they ever realized.

[Cindi Johnson]

So, it seems that most posts here view the input of a pastor negatively. "Who is he," we ask, "this holy man? Who is he to question me? I'm transgendered; I've been transgendered since I exited the womb, and that is that. I'll deal with my transgenderism just fine, thank you. You're input is not appreciated."

And yes, I do agree with you all. I don't see a need to get any pastor's blessing, either.

What I don't get is why the very same girls that oppose a pastor's intervention have absolutely no problem with a therapist having a final say in whether one is transgendered or not. In fact, most girls here embrace the idea that all of us need a therapist.

What the heck is the difference? And before you say to yourself "but, a therapist is trained", I'll point out that most priests receive similar training.

[LeaP]

What I don't get is why the very same girls that oppose a pastor's intervention have absolutely no problem with a therapist having a final say in whether one is transgendered or not. In fact, most girls here embrace the idea that all of us need a therapist.

What the heck is the difference? And before you say to yourself "but, a therapist is trained", I'll point out that most priests receive similar training.

It a good question, but there are significant differences. First, no one receives any gender-specific training or clinical exposure without seeking it out. I.e., the counseling training might be similar, but it's irrelevant unless it's topical. Most here would agree, I think, that generic counseling or therapy is dicey at best when it comes to gender issues, which is the reason that specialists exist. Second, a lot of (but not all) training for clerics is specific to religious counseling and/or includes training on approaching certain issues like gender from the "proper" theological point of view.

It's possible to get a trained, unbiased clerical therapist, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Lea

[Rianna Humble]

What I don't get is why the very same girls that oppose a pastor's intervention have absolutely no problem with a therapist having a final say in whether one is transgendered or not. In fact, most girls here embrace the idea that all of us need a therapist.

What the heck is the difference?

Firstly, we are dealing with someone whose family has told her that she will go to hell for daring to believe that she is anything other than a heterosexual cisgendered male. They are the ones trying to get her to see the priest. I think that it is a fair bet that he will share their bigotry.

Secondly, no decent therapist will "have a final say in whether one is transgendered or not" but they (unlike the priest) are trained to empower the patient to work it out for themselves. The priest with (according to you) similar training will have been schooled in how to persuade his parishoner to toe the church's official line not in how to empower the parishioner to discover for his/her self.

I have no problem with anyone who wants to believe that another person is the authorised oracle for their chosen god and who goes to that person to seek the authorised answer to a religious dilemma. I do have a problem with someone being sent by people with closed minds to a person "in authority" to be persuaded of something about which that authority has no understanding.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

That's right rianna.... I don't know anyone here who has ever said that gatekeepers should make any decision for anyone..

Therapy is an empowerment tool. And It's a way to safely share information so that you can help yourself...

If you can't get what you wantout of therapy, that's on you, and you have to find your way somewhere else...many people get little or nothing out of therapy.

[LeaP]

I do have a problem with someone being sent by people with closed minds to a person "in authority" to be persuaded of something about which that authority has no understanding.

This was extraordinarily well-put, Rianna.

Lea

[Miranda-E]

What I don't get is why the very same girls that oppose a pastor's intervention have absolutely no problem with a therapist having a final say in whether one is transgendered or not. In fact, most girls here embrace the idea that all of us need a therapist.

What the heck is the difference? And before you say to yourself "but, a therapist is trained", I'll point out that most priests receive similar training.

The therapist doesn't say we are transgender. The therapist is a necessary evil for some legal aspects of transition because the system is still based in discrimination. The pastor isn't necessary.

[Beth-Lock]

The problem with this is that religions are based on tradition, and that means following the past. In the Bible, written so long ago, a lot of things were left out and a lot of things were written in the context of so long ago, when a lot was not known about such things. The church's detailed thinking on such things is only being done now.

I think you can predict what the pastor will say. If he goes by the old time religion and the Bible, only, it will not be too positive. If he accepts the new teachings, like some liberal churches, it should be okay.

[Aprilrain]

All I know is Eve was framed!

[kimdl93]

I'm all in favor of therapy, and have had my share. The point of therapy isn't to make a person accept some set of rules for behavior. Its not meant to make you "happy". Rather competent therapy is aimed at helping a person deal with his/her reality more effectively...its that simple.

With all due respect to clergy, evem the most highly educated clergy are NOT remotely qualified to offer counseling outside of their theological training...and that's not remotely relevant unless you're determined to live your life in accordance with the doctrine of your religion.

[Hope]

I've setup a meeting with my pastor to discuss why I believe it's ok to be trans. I'm nervous about admitting to my pastor that I want to be a woman, and I'm also nervous that he may turn around and tell me that it is wrong.

any advice you can give me about how to approach this, how to overcome the fear, maybe some scripture that can be used to justify being trans etc...


As a former pastor I can provide you with a little bit of guidance. Maybe. A lot of my colleagues always seemed to be twits.

The first thing I would suggest you do is get clear in your own mind what it is that you want from your pastor. Know why you are going to see him. From this post, I have no idea. Do you want his blessing? Do you want his help? Do you want his guidance? And with what? Make-up tips? Be explicit about your request, or you will be more likely to be met with resistance as your pastor tries to figure out what you want from him, and his worries about what you might want from him take over. If you are just going to out yourself, be prepared for a bad experience.

Second, don't try to proof-text the man. When parishioners would come into my office and try to educate me, I thought it was cute. Insulting, but cute. Well, more insulting than cute. Your pastor knows the scripture better than you do. WAY better. That is his job. And he already has formed his opinions about it. Don't go into the man's office and try to educate him. Particularly with a self-serving interpretation for a "deviant" "life-style" "choice." It will not end well.

It is WONDERFUL that you believe that it is OK to be trans. Though frankly you sound very tentative about it, like you are not yet sure. Is it OK to be trans, or do you just believe it is? Is it OK to be trans, or is it a mother fu(#ing gift from god that makes you special, magical, and wonderful? (when you know the latter to be true you will be ready to lock horns with your pastor, but ironically you will no longer need to). If you go into your pastor's office and sound like you need to be convinced... he will try to convince you.



With all due respect to clergy, evem the most highly educated clergy are NOT remotely qualified to offer counseling outside of their theological training...and that's not remotely relevant unless you're determined to live your life in accordance with the doctrine of your religion.

Well, with all due respect to your opinion... there are a surpassing number of pastors who (like myself) have degrees in psychology... and there are a surprising number who also have advanced training in psychology, and the various diagnostic and treatment modalities used in a clinical setting. They often work as pastoral counselors.

Now, admittedly, a LOT of pastors offer much more counseling than they are even remotely qualified to offer, but to suggest that "even the most highly educated clergy are NOT remotely qualified to offer counseling outside of their theological training..." is just ignorant ranting. Which is fine, just don't try to pass it off as an opinion formed in anything other than bias.

Quite honestly, the vast majority of seminary trained pastors are specialists in dealing with people and have loads of training with relationships. There are definitely issues that fall outside of the vast majority of pastor's area of expertise and knowledge, but most pastors are quite able to handle relationship issues... and know well enough to refer to others when they encounter something out of their depth.

I am not trying to defend pastors here, really, a lot of them are twits. I went to seminary and remain friends with several twits. But I do get annoyed when lay people, (or non-christians) most of whom have no idea what their pastor does all day, make grand proclamations about what their pastor can or can't do. Most lay people have no idea. Particularly considering what monumental, excusing work it is, work that requires an unusually large skill-set.

But then there is a HUGE difference between the well educated, well trained pastor of the local Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian church - and the guy who runs the Pentecostal tabernacle of Jezuz as well...

[Steph.TS]

As a former pastor I can provide you with a little bit of guidance. Maybe. A lot of my colleagues always seemed to be twits.

The first thing I would suggest you do is get clear in your own mind what it is that you want from your pastor. Know why you are going to see him. From this post, I have no idea. Do you want his blessing? Do you want his help? Do you want his guidance? And with what? Make-up tips? Be explicit about your request, or you will be more likely to be met with resistance as your pastor tries to figure out what you want from him, and his worries about what you might want from him take over. If you are just going to out yourself, be prepared for a bad experience.

Second, don't try to proof-text the man. When parishioners would come into my office and try to educate me, I thought it was cute. Insulting, but cute. Well, more insulting than cute. Your pastor knows the scripture better than you do. WAY better. That is his job. And he already has formed his opinions about it. Don't go into the man's office and try to educate him. Particularly with a self-serving interpretation for a "deviant" "life-style" "choice." It will not end well.

It is WONDERFUL that you believe that it is OK to be trans. Though frankly you sound very tentative about it, like you are not yet sure. Is it OK to be trans, or do you just believe it is? Is it OK to be trans, or is it a mother fu(#ing gift from god that makes you special, magical, and wonderful? (when you know the latter to be true you will be ready to lock horns with your pastor, but ironically you will no longer need to). If you go into your pastor's office and sound like you need to be convinced... he will try to convince you.
I want him to confirm my belief that the Bible is ok with being trans (though I like the idea it could be a gift as well), using scripture as doctrinal proof. I'm confused, I'm going in question the question is it ok, so confidence isn't super high, I'm not to try educating him, how am I supposed to do this? how should i approach him? what questions can I ask? I don't want to upset him, I'm looking for answers to a difficult question, one that my family has thier mind made up on.

I thought showing what the original language had said in Deu 22:5 and 1 Cor. 6:9 would pop the bubble that it was wrong and them show what Jesus said in Matthew 19:12 to show that It's not a sin, but you're right if I challence his beliefs to something he's not open to being challenged, then it'll turn ugly :(

[Aprilrain]

IMO you are setting your self up for failure, though if you need your families approval BEFORE you can move forward with transition you have already failed and involving the pastor won't matter one way or the other. If you are confident in who you are and make the effort on your own in time your family may come around but if your families particular flavor of christianity is fundamentalist I wouldn't count on it.

[pj]

I'm looking for answers to a difficult question...You aren't going to find it in that book.

Really, there is no difficult question. What's difficult is your acceptance of who you are. I am an atheist, have been since I was old enough to question and reason, but I struggled for a long time with the same thing; self acceptance. It doesn't have anything to do with religion.

That your (or anyone's) family uses religion as a weapon against you is sad and tragic. I wish I had something hopeful and empowering to say to you, but you're playing in a rigged game. I don't see any way to win.

[Melody Moore]

What the heck is the difference? And before you say to yourself "but, a therapist is trained", I'll point out that most priests receive similar training.
What a load of Rubbish!

If Priests received similar training, then we wouldn't need psychologist, but as it turns out we NEED psychologists
to sort out the mess the priests create when they try and take on the role of a psychologist. And I went through
this myself. I was born intersex and was treated my whole life basically by priests who though they could cure me
of my 'sickness'. Reparative Therapy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy) is nothing short of brainwashing and has pushed more people to suicide than
it has helped anyone. So please - comparing a priest to a psychologist is like comparing an onion to an apple.

[Cindi Johnson]

Sorry Melody, I didn't realize you were an expert on seminary training. How many priests do you know? Rubbish is a strong word. I suspect most Catholic priests would differ with you as to the training they receive.

And by the way, "we" don't need psychologists (nor therapists). Speaking for myself, I fully accept the fact that I'm transgendered, and that I have been since day one. I fully accept the complications this has caused me over the years (and there were many). I accept the heartache I've known, the hurt my wife felt, the discomfort my son may have felt. Other than that, if anyone has a problem with me being TG, well, isn't that their problem? It's not mine. But to be honest, I haven't encountered many who seem to care, and I've been out and about as a girl in this world almost daily, for years.

Kim says that "competent therapy is aimed at helping a person deal with his/her reality more effectively...it's that simple." Well. at this stage in my life I do not need anyone to help me accept my reality. And I should be required to pay this therapist $100 an hour for this help? Please!

I do not need a therapist to hold my hand. I simply need a prescription for hormones. This should be a decision made by my physician, not a therapist.

Therapy is great if one is not coerced into it. So many of you believe I, and every transgendered girl, must go through therapy. Can't have hormones without therapy. Can't have SRS without therapy. Therapy, Therapy, Therapy. Yes, a therapist can be our best friend and supporter, yes indeed (as long as you hand him that $100 each hour).

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Actually cindi it sure looks like you could use some therapy. What does your hatred of therapy have to do with stephs trip to the pastor..why did u inject your issues with therapy into this...

[Bree-asaurus]

Sorry Melody, I didn't realize you were an expert on seminary training. How many priests do you know? Rubbish is a strong word. I suspect most Catholic priests would differ with you as to the training they receive.

And by the way, "we" don't need psychologists (nor therapists). Speaking for myself, I fully accept the fact that I'm transgendered, and that I have been since day one. I fully accept the complications this has caused me over the years (and there were many). I accept the heartache I've known, the hurt my wife felt, the discomfort my son may have felt. Other than that, if anyone has a problem with me being TG, well, isn't that their problem? It's not mine. But to be honest, I haven't encountered many who seem to care, and I've been out and about as a girl in this world almost daily, for years.

Kim says that "competent therapy is aimed at helping a person deal with his/her reality more effectively...it's that simple." Well. at this stage in my life I do not need anyone to help me accept my reality. And I should be required to pay this therapist $100 an hour for this help? Please!

I do not need a therapist to hold my hand. I simply need a prescription for hormones. This should be a decision made by my physician, not a therapist.

Therapy is great if one is not coerced into it. So many of you believe I, and every transgendered girl, must go through therapy. Can't have hormones without therapy. Can't have SRS without therapy. Therapy, Therapy, Therapy. Yes, a therapist can be our best friend and supporter, yes indeed (as long as you hand him that $100 each hour).

Keep in mind that not everyone is as anti-therapist as you are.

Some of us are still alive thanks to our amazing therapists that really have helped us deal with our issues.

EDIT: And since you HAD to inject how much therapy CAN cost...... my therapist saw the last time at NO COST.

[Badtranny]

Cindi, I don't have an argument for you, but I am curious about the tone of your post. Why do you have such a distaste for therapists? Sometimes people need a completely objective viewpoint and a perspective that is completely different than our own. Anyone who is presently in your life does not meet these criteria. The very fact that you're paying this person means that they have no interest in any outcome one way or another. They are paid to listen and reflect back what you are saying with no bias and no agenda. What's so bad about that? If you don't need it, than that's wonderful. Some of us however were extremely unsure about what to do about our feelings. I personally had a very difficult time accepting my reality, and having a therapist frame my feelings and help me put some of the pieces together was worth every penny.

There's quite a few people on this very board who could use a few dozen hours of therapy if you ask me.

[Bree-asaurus]

There's quite a few people on this very board who could use a few dozen hours of therapy if you ask me.

I agree. I've seen a number of people here that are super anti-therapy. I don't know if it's from a bad experience or some preconceived notion that therapists are bad... but therapy has been an integral part of many people's lives...

The therapist I go to is my first therapist. I did the research to find one that was recommended by people in my situation. He actually cares about the people he treats; he specializes in gender issues and goes out of his way to help us. Maybe he is a rare gem, but I think it's more likely that some people just don't take the time to find a good therapist... and if one is bad, they're all bad, right? And if you have the crazy idea that you don't need a therapist, but have never been to one, that you don't need one and nobody needs one... *sigh*

If I can find an amazing therapist in the heart of Texas, anyone here (in a city of decent size) can find a good therapist if they take the time to look for one.

[Hephaestus]

Assuming you are trans and need to transition... What happens if your pastor says that no, it's not ok according to the bible, or to the church... what then? Do you sweep your feelings under the rug, and burn your female clothes, and try to play the part of a good man the rest of your life? Just some food for thought... I'm no longer a Christian, and haven't been in years, so I can't speak to how I justified it... it was just who I am and what I needed to do, so I went for it, and damn anyone who would tell me I was wrong about myself. ...Going on what I used to believe back in the day (take this with a pillar of salt since obviously I've lost my Christianity) seems like even if God would consider it somewhat sinful for whatever reason, I don't think it'd be enough to damn you if you were otherwise a good Christian, following all the rituals and tithing and what-not.

Good luck, in any case, I will parrot most everyone else and say this seems like it's doomed to reap bad results in the worst case, and in the best case probably just not accomplish anything... Like trying to convince a member of Westboro baptist that homosexual people are great.

[Steph.TS]

Assuming you are trans and need to transition... What happens if your pastor says that no, it's not ok according to the bible, or to the church... what then? Do you sweep your feelings under the rug, and burn your female clothes, and try to play the part of a good man the rest of your life? Just some food for thought... I'm no longer a Christian, and haven't been in years, so I can't speak to how I justified it... it was just who I am and what I needed to do, so I went for it, and damn anyone who would tell me I was wrong about myself. ...Going on what I used to believe back in the day (take this with a pillar of salt since obviously I've lost my Christianity) seems like even if God would consider it somewhat sinful for whatever reason, I don't think it'd be enough to damn you if you were otherwise a good Christian, following all the rituals and tithing and what-not.

Good luck, in any case, I will parrot most everyone else and say this seems like it's doomed to reap bad results in the worst case, and in the best case probably just not accomplish anything... Like trying to convince a member of Westboro baptist that homosexual people are great.

if he shows scripture that tells me I'm SOL, then I'll try to live as a man, but if he just says no without scripture or something weak, then I'll probably continue moving forward. just depends on how it's handled. regardless I'll talk to my therapist about it and that'll help me know what I should do next as well.

[Miranda-E]

if he shows scripture that tells me I'm SOL, then I'll try to live as a man,

Wow, just wow. Are you serious about that or just pulling our leg?

[DanaR]

if he shows scripture that tells me I'm SOL, then I'll try to live as a man, but if he just says no without scripture or something weak, then I'll probably continue moving forward. just depends on how it's handled. regardless I'll talk to my therapist about it and that'll help me know what I should do next as well.
It sounds like you are going to see if you'll get his blessing; which I think that you'll be disappointed.

I think that the results here are predicable. You would be better off just trying to come up with a solution from your therapist.

[Steph.TS]

Wow, just wow. Are you serious about that or just pulling our leg?

serious, it depends on how serious the Bible attacks it (if it attacks it) I'm confident that I'm right in my interpretation, but if I go through with transition without getting confirmation of my interpretation, it'll always be in the back of my mind. worrying if my mom was right. I want peace most of all how can I have peace if I'm actively going against God? I say God not my pastor and not my church, I will be heart broken if thing go south believe me, but I honestly believe strongly that I'm right and I'm going to need him to hit me with some hard scriptures to show me I'm wrong.

[noeleena]

Hi, Steph ,

I belive this will help you far more .

Millton Diamond

Sex & Gender ;Same or Different ?.

diamond@hawaii,edu

phone 808 956 7400

fax 808 956 9481

http//ts-si.org/files/DiamondSexAndGenderSameDifferent.pdf-

hope this helps , this will do far more for you in the long term.

...noeleena...

[LeaP]

Hi, Steph ,

I belive this will help you far more .

Millton Diamond

Sex & Gender ;Same or Different ?.

diamond@hawaii,edu

phone 808 956 7400

fax 808 956 9481

http//ts-si.org/files/DiamondSexAndGenderSameDifferent.pdf-

hope this helps , this will do far more for you in the long term.

...noeleena...

Try this URL instead:

http://ts-si.org/files/DiamondSexAndGenderSameDifferent.pdf

Lea

[Kelsy]

Hi Steph

I respect your need to be sure of where you stand with regards to scripture but what you’re going to get is someone else’s interpretation of what the bible says. God is no respecter of men He does not look at the outer man but at your heart. If you receive condemnation from this pastor or the church members then they are the ones in danger not you! If your transsexuality became so unmanageable and God forbid you committed suicide would they condemn you for that too? I have a question would it be a problem to just live the rest of your life as a man? If you answer no then that’s what you should do, If you answer yes then what will your life be like? None of this is easy and if you’re looking for approval you are in the wrong game. There may not be any approval I hope you are prepared for that!
I am truly sorry for the struggle you are in – You are not alone and there is hope!
Kelsy

[Kelsy]

Some of us are still alive thanks to our amazing therapists that really have helped us deal with our issues.

EDIT: .

My Theripist is a peach!! My Life has totally changed for the better having found her!
With the exception of my SO she is the one person I have been completely honest with. Complete honesty changes your life!

[Michelle I]

I've setup a meeting with my pastor to discuss why I believe it's ok to be trans. I'm nervous about admitting to my pastor that I want to be a woman, and I'm also nervous that he may turn around and tell me that it is wrong.

any advice you can give me about how to approach this, how to overcome the fear, maybe some scripture that can be used to justify being trans etc...

Steph: what bothers me about your post is you seem to be asking if it will OK to be trans. It's really not a choice but it is who you are. I did not wake up one morning and say "Wow, I need to be trans." After time spent with my therapist, I know who I am, I finally like Me and really dont care if my preist or the church thinks I am going to Hell because I was born this way.

[Steph.TS]

Hi Steph

I respect your need to be sure of where you stand with regards to scripture but what you’re going to get is someone else’s interpretation of what the bible says. God is no respecter of men He does not look at the outer man but at your heart. If you receive condemnation from this pastor or the church members then they are the ones in danger not you! If your transsexuality became so unmanageable and God forbid you committed suicide would they condemn you for that too? I have a question would it be a problem to just live the rest of your life as a man? If you answer no then that’s what you should do, If you answer yes then what will your life be like? None of this is easy and if you’re looking for approval you are in the wrong game. There may not be any approval I hope you are prepared for that!
I am truly sorry for the struggle you are in – You are not alone and there is hope!
Kelsy
I honestly don't know if I can live as a man for the rest of my life, but as I said if the pastor shows scripture that clearly says if I transition I'll go to hell, I'll do my best to live as a man. I'm walking into this this with 2 exected outcomes, I'm accepted as good in God's eyes and recieve peace on a spiritual level, and the hope I can persuade my family that it's not a sin. the other expectation is it's a terrible sin, and I'd need to discuss with my therapist the issues I have on this front, maybe learn coping mechanisms for hw to live as a man or something...

if it turns out to be the latter, I fully expect that at 50 or 60, I'm going to need to transition again, that time with and even strong need, and I'll be filled with regret for not doing it sooner. that's is why I'm trying to act now so I don't have that regret...

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Wow Steph...

All I can say is that I hope you get what you want.

I have no doubt however that even if your pastor says yes, you will figure out another way to sabatoge your own life, and I feel bad for you.
Nothing we can say can really help you ...you must help yourself ...and you are clearly not at a point where you can do that..

Life is hard, you better get used to it

[DebbieL]

There are something like 80,000 verses in the bible, and about 5 of them address homosexual behavior, and 3 address transgender behavior. However, the cites relating to homosexuality are actually references to the most brutal form of rape. The orders to kill boys dressed as girls are related to the practice of invading armies to kill ALL boys, even very young ones. The mothers would often dress their sons as girls if they were too weak or too young to fight, hoping that they would merely be raped and could avenge their deaths when they grew up. Remember that all older women were also killed immediately. And all this in spite of the commandment that says "Thou shalt not kill".

If your pastor tries to go with the "King James Translation" and has no concept of the context, or the translation errors, then he probably isn't very reliable as a pastor and even less qualified to speak on behalf of God. Remember that Leviticus was written for people who lived in tents, moved every day, and men would have several wives, as many as they could afford. People who depended on Manna for 40 years and had been condemned by God to die in the wilderness - only their children would see the promised land. Not even Moses was allowed to cross over.

Jesus came to free us from those traditions, the "Kosher Laws", and gave us freedom. Paul still warned against the sodomite - which referred to brutal rape of men or women.

There is nothing in the New Testament - and certainly nothing spoken by Jesus that condemns transgender or transsexuals. In fact Jesus even prophesied that some would make themselves Enunichs in his name. Perhaps, in making the transition, you are fulfilling this prophesy.

[Melody Moore]

if he shows scripture that tells me I'm SOL, then I'll try to live as a man, but if he just says no without scripture or something weak, then I'll probably continue moving forward. just depends on how it's handled. regardless I'll talk to my therapist about it and that'll help me know what I should do next as well.

Wow! I really can't believe that you would let another MAN tell you how to live your life.
Preachers and pastors are humans, therefore they can full of crap as well and more often
than not they are. If this is how you really feel, then I have nothing more to ever say to
you if you are going to give up just like that.

[Melody Moore]

Sorry Melody, I didn't realize you were an expert on seminary training. How many priests do you know? Rubbish is a strong word. I suspect most Catholic priests would differ with you as to the training they receive.

Listen Cindi, I have had LOTS of experience with Priests, brothers, sisters from the Catholic church and I have had
lots of experience with preachers and pastors from evangelistic churches and I have seen them violate ever single
rule in the book with psychotherapy. So spare me any crap that they received the same type of psychological training.

I have no issue with anyone's relationship with God, I have a very close one to him myself, but that does not mean
that I will put up with statements that are clearly NOT true. So what is your aversion to therapist huh? They have
a better understanding on these issues than your preachers and pastors do. So I would trust them before your kind.

[Miranda-E]

if it turns out to be the latter, I fully expect that at 50 or 60, I'm going to need to transition again, that time with and even strong need, and I'll be filled with regret for not doing it sooner. that's is why I'm trying to act now so I don't have that regret...

so act now and stop trying to get everyones permission.
It sounds like you want everyone to give you permission a lot more than you actually want the transition itself.

[Steph.TS]

There is nothing in the New Testament - and certainly nothing spoken by Jesus that condemns transgender or transsexuals. In fact Jesus even prophesied that some would make themselves Enunichs in his name. Perhaps, in making the transition, you are fulfilling this prophesy.

I have a letter all written up for the meeting and I'm quoting Matthew 19:12


Wow! I really can't believe that you would let another MAN tell you how to live your life.
Preachers and pastors are humans, therefore they can full of crap as well and more often
than not they are. If this is how you really feel, then I have nothing more to ever say to
you if you are going to give up just like that.

I'm not blindly accepting his views, I'm going to write down the Bible verses he quotes, read it over, go back to the original languages to find out what the intent of the verses were then have a long think about if my pastor's views are right or not. trust me I am not 'giving up' I'm doing everything I can. I'm sorry if I've upset you, I know you must be disappointed in me, but I need to know my God is going to accept me, I'm just going to the pastor for guidance as he knows the scripture better than I. I've done research online, used the strong's concordance and the more I dig the more I feel I'm safe. But I have to make sure I'm not giving myself false hope.

[Steph.TS]

so act now and stop trying to get everyones permission.
It sounds like you want everyone to give you permission a lot more than you actually want the transition itself.

I'm afraid, there are consequences to doing any action, and this is a HUGE action, I don't know what to expect, I'm trying to do this as safely as I can. I know my Dad woun't likely ever accept this he's so homophobic and out of it that he thinks CD's and TS's are gay... I know if I transition I'm losing people in my life, and I'm willing to do that I'm trying to brace myself and minimize my losses.

[Badtranny]

I know you must be disappointed in me,

Disappointed isn't the word Steph. Many of us feel like we're watching a slow motion train wreck and there's nothing we can do to save anyone involved. The word you're looking for or should be is; resolve. You can come out as gay and two weeks later start dating women again and say it was a phase, but when you come out as transsexual, you can't call that bullet back. Changing your gender in front of everyone you know takes a resolve that I don't see in your writing. Of course it's none of my business and Lord knows I could be wrong but this journey is far too difficult to attempt without the courage of your convictions. We ALL want to be accepted and supported but it is not necessary. The only thing we NEED is our own resolve. A single minded dedication to the end game. We can be derailed, delayed and dismissed but we won't be denied our birthright. I didn't ask to be this way and I'll be damned if someone is going to stand in the way of my happiness.

You don't need anyone to believe in you but you absolutely must believe in yourself.

[Stephenie S]

I'm afraid, there are consequences to doing any action, and this is a HUGE action, I don't know what to expect, I'm trying to do this as safely as I can. I know if I transition I'm losing people in my life, and I'm willing to do that I'm trying to brace myself and minimize my losses.

Let me tell you right now what to expect. You can and should expect to lose EVERYTHING!!!! And when I say everything I mean just that. Everything. Your SO, your parents, your home, your friends, your siblings, your job, your money, everything. There is just no other way to go through with transition. If you are not prepared to lose everything then you should not attempt transition.

Now, do we all lose everything? No. Of course not. Some lose very little. But the possibility is there, and you have to be prepared. If you are saying that you can't transition unless you can be sure you WON'T lose those things that are dear to you, then you shouldn't even begin to think about actually transitioning. Don't do it. You are not a very good candidate.

Stephie

[Sharon]

I'll respect the degree of your faith, Steph, though my own faith lies elsewhere and speaks differently to me. I would suggest, however, that if your pastor says you are sinning against the bible by being who you are and expressing yourself as the person your creator begot, then you should seek opinions from others. We do this, or ought to, with doctors when one suggests something of importance regarding our health, so it seems just as prudent to do so with pastors, priests, rabbis, or any other religious authority. Just as with other individuals, you have both conservative and liberal religious people; if your pastor happens to be more conservative, then you owe it to yourself to also seek the opinions of more moderately minded pastors as well.

[Kimberly Long]

Up date: I went to midnight mass last night with my wife, fully dressed as Kimberly. I felt so special and no one even noticed or said a thing to me. It was so special to walk in heels and dress and Neal at the alter and take the bread and wine.
I have broken the ice and the water is wonderful.
I wish each and everyone a Merry Christmas
Love Kimberly

[ArleneRaquel]

Up date: I went to midnight mass last night with my wife, fully dressed as Kimberly. I felt so special and no one even noticed or said a thing to me. It was so special to walk in heels and dress and Neal at the alter and take the bread and wine.
I have broken the ice and the water is wonderful.
I wish each and everyone a Merry Christmas
Love Kimberly

What a wonderful Christmas Eve ! :) I went to midight Mass also enfemme, ast night, with two other TG friends, no problems. I was only the second time that I went to church as a woman. :)

[IamSara]

This passage is about self-sacrifice in service to God. It has nothing to do with genitalia and nothing to do with gender. Some would argue (including me) that it has nothing to do with marriage or relationships. I can also easily think of a half-dozen ways this scripture can be turned against you - including your needing to sacrifice your desire to transition.

You also said:

"If I get the all clear from my pastor
...
I'm not looking for approval from my pastor"

I would say that you are.

Be careful.

Lea

I was going to say the same thing Lea.
I believe you are going to find that your pastor will not support you in your search of the scriptures is correct. As Julia said you may be thrown to the wolves, I am here to tell you she is probably correct. Like you I was very involved in church and in my faith. When my crossdressing became known I was told that I could repent my evil sins or I would be voted out of the church. Guess what, I got voted out of the church. I know what I am and that isn't going to change. However, as I KNOW that Christ died for my sins I WILL go to heaven when I die. Whether I am a CD/TG or not.
Good luck with talking to him but be careful what you actually tell him. He will think he only has your best interests at heart and as I have found out those interests are not neccessarily what is best.

[Hope]

I want him to confirm my belief that the Bible is ok with being trans (though I like the idea it could be a gift as well), using scripture as doctrinal proof. I'm confused, I'm going in question the question is it ok, so confidence isn't super high, I'm not to try educating him, how am I supposed to do this? how should i approach him? what questions can I ask? I don't want to upset him, I'm looking for answers to a difficult question, one that my family has thier mind made up on.

I thought showing what the original language had said in Deu 22:5 and 1 Cor. 6:9 would pop the bubble that it was wrong and them show what Jesus said in Matthew 19:12 to show that It's not a sin, but you're right if I challence his beliefs to something he's not open to being challenged, then it'll turn ugly :(

Look, it is quite simple. Christ taught us to love everyone, and to not be afraid of anything. And I believe that the man meant what he said. Love EVERYONE. Even the twit pastors who oppress you. Even the greenbough baptist nuts. I think the concern most folks here have expressed is that your pastor is, like many religious people have a reputation for doing, going to be afraid of you and react to that fear by condemning you and your "deviant" "behavior." You can tell even before you go in the office; what is your pastor's stance on homosexuality?

I can show you scripture that shows Christ eating with trans people. There isn't much more affirmation I need.

And frankly, who gives a flip what the bible says? If the bible tells you that it is OK to keep slaves, (it does) are you going to? Of course not. If the bible tells you that you have to stone people who get divorced (it does) are you going to? Of course not. If the bibles says that a woman who has been raped has to marry her rapist (it does!) do you agree? Of course not. So why do you care about this? I'm with the other girls. I don't think this is about the scripture, or about faith, or about
getting permission or clarification or a blessing.



Some of us are still alive thanks to our amazing therapists that really have helped us deal with our issues.


My therapist for instance is made of pure, uncut, unadulterated awesome.


There's quite a few people on this very board who could use a few dozen hours of therapy a week if you ask me.

FTFY

[Steph.TS]

I'm rewriting my letter for my pastor to be more direct, explaining my position why I believe it's ok Biblically, while at the same time showing him that I respect his knowledge and acknowledge he's studied the scripture far more than I have. I started looking for another church incase things gone south. I also plan to speak to another pastor I know if this pastor doesn't respect my views.

in more favourable views I'm going to my next therapy session dressed as a woman, I understand part of the problem I have, I've been timidly approaching this trying to ease into transitioning, but if I don't push harder, I'll either be stuck as a man or I won't be quite a man or a woman. I'll try to talk to my therapist about pushing forward, versus taking risks...

[DebbieL]

For his time, Jesus was essentially a transsexual. In a society dominated by violence, multiple armed uprisings, Roman power and occupation, and a priesthood with the power of both religion and government, Jesus promoted the idea of turning the other cheek, walking the extra mile, and showing compassion, not just for friends and strangers, but even for enemies.

These were probably very "feminine" qualities in the time of Jesus. They are certainly the antithesis of the violent attacks done by the United States against it's enemies over the last 100 years.

Translations of the bible, and even the ability to read the bible, were often politically motivated. Many churches actually forbade anyone other than priests from reading the actual bible, because the teachings of Jesus challenged the establish order.

[Melody Moore]

Steph,

Have you really taken the time to read 1 Corinthians 6?

Now I have seen many pastors and Christians in contempt of verses
6:1 to 6:5 and verses 6:9 to 6:12 are taken so out of context.

Go and read it and tell me what you think this all really means and I will come back
with my interpretation of this chapter. It will be interesting to compare notes. If
anyone else is a Christian, I would like to hear their thoughts as well.

[Steph.TS]

Look, it is quite simple. Christ taught us to love everyone, and to not be afraid of anything. And I believe that the man meant what he said. Love EVERYONE. Even the twit pastors who oppress you. Even the greenbough baptist nuts. I think the concern most folks here have expressed is that your pastor is, like many religious people have a reputation for doing, going to be afraid of you and react to that fear by condemning you and your "deviant" "behavior." You can tell even before you go in the office; what is your pastor's stance on homosexuality?

I can show you scripture that shows Christ eating with trans people. There isn't much more affirmation I need.

And frankly, who gives a flip what the bible says? If the bible tells you that it is OK to keep slaves, (it does) are you going to? Of course not. If the bible tells you that you have to stone people who get divorced (it does) are you going to? Of course not. If the bibles says that a woman who has been raped has to marry her rapist (it does!) do you agree? Of course not. So why do you care about this? I'm with the other girls. I don't think this is about the scripture, or about faith, or about
getting permission or clarification or a blessing.

was the trans person Jesus ate with, the man who was carrying the water? In honesty I've never heard my pastor address homosexuality, but I can assume he won't be favorable to it. recently I spoke with my mom and while I didn't specifically mention the trans stuff with my mm during the conversation I spoke around it and I feel better about this Biblically speaking. even if it is a sin, it's forgivable, that is assuming it's a sin. it makes my pastor's input less important.

[Amber99]

If
anyone else is a Christian, I would like to hear their thoughts as well.

I am and I'm at least curious to see what you girls come up with.

[Melody Moore]

1 Corinthians 6


6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
6:4 If then ye have judgements of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.Here we are well warned about judging others and this section of this chapter also reminds me about why the clergy,
the pastors & preachers should not be judging others. It warns us specifically about judging other members of the
church & if we do it, then we should feel ashamed. And we see this happen a lot and this is why personally I won't
ever trust any blasphemous bigot who ignores this fundamental rule outlined the Bible because they are out of line.


6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6:6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
6:7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.Now what is being pointed out here, it is those who try to judge other Christians who should be ashamed because
noone else in the church is wise enough and isn't without fault. So anyone who claims to be without fault and can
judge another Christian is nothing but a fraud. How many so-called Christians have we seen violate this rule eh? :heehee:


6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.In the very start of verse 6:9 it questions who is righteous and who has the right to inherit the kingdom of God, yeah?
Then it goes on to say who won't inherit the Kingdom of God, but this is where it also starts to get really interesting
in the next verse 6:11...


6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.Here is says very clearly that it doesn't matter who you are, and that you will be saved if you have Jesus
in your life. If you have committed a crime, murder, rape, stealing, extortion, etc or if you are effeminate
then these things you cannot change. If you have killed someone you will always be a murderer, If you have
raped someone, you will always be a rapist. If you have conned someone, you will always be an extortionist.
If you were a prostitute then you will always be a prostitute. If you are an effeminate male, then you are
mostly likely a transsexual or an intersex person and nothing can ever change who you really are. But if you
have Christ in your life, then you will be saved & that is of course, if it was a sin, but not everything is a sin.

Verse 6:12 also points out exactly what you just stated here Steph...
even if it is a sin, it's forgivable, that is assuming it's a sin.


6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.Then we are well warned about being a glutton and being greedy in the name of pleasure
or because we can and we are also warned about living in the flesh and not in the spirit...


6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.And just as God raised Jesus up, he will raise up all the sinners because they came to the Lord
and this does also include us transsexuals who are right in our spirit and have Jesus in our lives.


6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.It doesn't matter if someone was a sinner, if they are in the spirit with the Lord in their life
then they are part of the same spirit and this is why another human cannot judge this person.


6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.We are then warned about "sexual immorality" or "sexual perversions". So if we are not being sexually immoral
then there is nothing wrong with what we do with our lives - just be a good person and don't judge others. So
according to this then you are right with God even if you are an effeminate man, or in our case a transsexual.

It gets even more interesting when you dig into the use of the word "effeminate" because this word has nothing
to do with being female if you did into the history of it. It was used and implied towards those who refused to
take up arms and were cowardly or woman like. The word effeminate or Malakia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_definition_of_effeminacy) means "Soft and Gentle"
The Romans (Greeks) also used Malakos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malakos) as an insult for their enemies which is used in the New Testament.
The modern term still used today in the greek language is called Malakas which means "wankër".

So being a 'soft and gentle' man because you refused to take up arms and fight is a sin eh?

[Amber99]

snip

Thanks. That lines up with what I already worked out. It's part of our nature, and if it is a sin we are forgiven for it anyway.

1 Corinthians 6:1-4 is really something that needs to be followed better :P

[DebbieL]

So, it seems that most posts here view the input of a pastor negatively.
Many of us have suffered at the hands of misguided Christians who have been taught that boys acting like women is a capital crime and that boys who do this should be put to death, or at least made to suffer to the point where they either stop dressing or kill themselves. There are such directives in the bible, related to a specific situation of invading and taking a city, where ALL of the boys and ALL of the older married women - were to be killed, as well as all of the able bodied men. This was to prevent the young boys from growing up to avenge the murder of their families and the rapes of their sisters.

Today, war has rules, we are more "civilized", and even in gang warfare, the winning gang doesn't wipe out all males in the invaded territory.

However, because the Bible has been so poorly translated, words in Hebrew that require entire phrases, or entire paragraphs of translation were translated word for word. A Yenta was translated to "*****", or "Harlot". A "Putz" was translated to "Lie with" or "bed". In Hebrew, there are 12 words that get translated to love, 8 words that get translated to sex or marriage. There are 6 words for "maiden", and 10 words that translate to "Harlot" that have nothing to do with sex.

Unfortunately, there are many denominations of the Christian religion, as well as many sects within the major denominations - who are not properly trained in all of these subtleties and distinctions. Many of them have their own agenda. For example, some monastic orders look for transgendered and homosexual boys and consider them perfect candidates for a life of Celibacy and Chastity in orders like the Franciscans. St Francis of Assissi was homosexual, and probably transgendered as well.


"Who is he," we ask, "this holy man? Who is he to question me?
If you are a Christian, and you fear that you might spend eternity in hell if you have the sex change, then you might want to talk to someone you feel is God's representative on earth. The only problem is that if he tells you that you WILL go to hell just for even THINKING about changing your sex, many choose a terminal option.

I had two cousins who planned their own deaths in such a way that they could repent their sins and get forgiveness just before they died.
The suicide rate among transgendered and homosexual men is several times the national average. In one survey 51% had actually tried to kill themselves at least once, and the survey speculated that if you included those who actually DID commit suicide, the number would be more like 75-80%.


I'm transgendered; I've been transgendered since I exited the womb, and that is that.

Most of us were transgendered within 8 weeks after insemination. The degree to which the testosterone was flushed or was missing can be measured by comparing the length of the index finger to the ring finger. Those with lots of testosterone have longer ring fingers. Those who have less testosterone or none, have longer index fingers. This may express itself in behaviors and mannerisms that range from being very passive and gentle, to being transsexual.


I'll deal with my transgenderism just fine, thank you. You're input is not appreciated."
Good for you.


What I don't get is why the very same girls that oppose a pastor's intervention
have absolutely no problem with a therapist having a final say in whether one is
transgendered or not. In fact, most girls here embrace the idea that all of us need a therapist.

Most human beings struggle with change, whether that change is the loss of a loved one, the loss of a job, the loss of a marriage, or even just moving to a new city. We tend to resist change, to want to hang onto the familiar, to try and fix the past, rather than focus on creating a new future.

For many who are transgendered, EVERYTHING changes. They may lose their families, their friends, their parents, wives, children, grandparents. They may have to give up ALL of their friends. They may have to give up their jobs. They may have to move to a new city where they can find support. They have to deal with major changes in their bodies. They also have to deal with being perceived as women. Strategies that worked as men don't work as women. They have to learn new social skills.

In addition, there are many procedures that are incredibly painful. Laser, Electrolysis, waxing, and plucking of hair from the face, lips, neck, and chin can be very painful, and even a bit traumatic. And even when it seems like most of the hair is gone, new dark hairs come shooting up, which means going back for more electrolysis or laser and waxing.

There is also always that battle with the testes. To make the female hormones work, the testosterone has to be blocked. All of this can create some significant emotional reactions, mood swings, and just plain old frustration.

For some of us, the reality is that we will never be as beautiful as we would like to be. If you're 6 feet tall, have size 12 feet, and wear 3X clothing, it's going to be very hard, if not impossible to feminize that body. And if I do too well at creating a beautiful look, I am sure to attract lots of attention, including attention I might not want. I might be attractive to some bisexual who is attractive to me, but I might just look like a freak to a bunch of right wing fundamentalist red-necks who want to do a "Matthew Shepard", or worse.

There are also logistical issues. A sex change isn't cheap. If you're struggling to pay your rent, it might not be the best idea in the world to start taking a bunch of expensive hormones, $5,000 to $10,000 worth of electrolysis, not to mention implants, and SRS. And there may be periods where you can't work, where you may need to depend on someone else for financial support, or use savings.

And the hardest thing of all is when the therapist may have to help you face the reality that even if you did all that, you still wouldn't be able to "pass" as a woman, but you couldn't pass as a man either.


What the heck is the difference? And before you say to yourself "but, a therapist is trained",
I'll point out that most priests receive similar training.

Which order of priesthood is trained in how to guide transsexuals through the transition?
I know that there are Hindu sects for transsexuals, and they have been castrating men for centuries.
In Muslim countries, castration is a common punishment for being in an area where women don't wear their abayas.
Eunuchs are then given jobs guarding the harems, the family areas, and other places where men are not allowed. But they function as men, not as women.

For almost 7 centuries, gender identity confusion was considered a sign of witchcraft. Women who wanted the power and privileges of men, and men who wanted to be women, were considered to be consorting with the devil, and were usually tortured into confessing not only their own heresy, but also into naming others (usually owners of land that was to be seized and turned over to the church or to a political leader). Then they would be burned at the stake, often gagged so that they couldn't recant in public. Sometimes their tongues were cut out, and then they would be burned.

But now you are telling me that some branch of the priesthood has been charged with helping transgendered people make the transition? I'm very curious indeed.

[*Vanessa*]

Advise Steph ???
You do not need anyone's approval to be you *period*

In your mind you can makeup all kinds of reasons why this and why that. Follow your gut when you need some guidance like this and you will never fail yourself..

WE ARE THE ARCHITECTS OF OUR FUTURE...

[Dawn cd]

I do hope, Steph, that you report to us on your conversation with your pastor.

Remember, what we really want to know is what God believes of us—not what our pastors, or our mothers, or even what the bible thinks of us. Because if we believe God supports and loves us, then we can move forward confidently, regardless of what anyone else says. We must never let us parents or pastors take the place of God. Sure, Christians believe God speaks through the bible, but they also believe Spirit of God is loose in the world and continues to speak to us even now. I hope you will listen to that Voice that speaks in your own heart, and come to trust it.

[Jordie]

Melody,

I loved your post. Very clean and precise.

Thanks

[Jordie]

Steph,


It seems as you are conditioning your supposedly true self. Listen to your heart, to your body, to your skin,to your senses and NOT to your pastor. Close your eyes and remove all kinds philosophies and beliefs for a couple of minutes and listen to your inner self. In silence, you will find your true self, and not through the interpretations of your pastor.

[*Vanessa*]

Had to return to this post after my 18km walk today. I love listening to old rock/blues on my way and was listening to the Allman Brothers Band sing this song and thought of all the posts in the thread. The songs cool give the first verse and chorus a read.

When you can't find the light,
That got you through a cloudy day,
When the stars ain't shinin' bright,
You feel like you've lost you're way,
When those candle lights of home,
Burn so very far away,
Now you got to let your soul shine,
Just like my daddy used to say.

[Chorus]
He used to say soulshine,
It's better than sunshine,
It's better than moonshine,
Damn sure better than rain.
Yeah now people don't mind,
We all get this way sometime,
Got to let your soul shine, shine till the break of day.

Anyway - my two cents x2

[kristinacd55]

Wow, lots of emotions here pertaining to religion. Sounds almost like Washington DC lol. My advice Steph, is to listen to your heart and don't let others sway you in your thinking. You have ONE life to live and it's YOUR life. Please try and remember that.

[Mariah]

My Pastor has not only Excepted me as myself, So has my whole church. Don't give up, it sounds like you have a vary logical and religious view point, don't let people of less faith send you down a path you do not want to be in. I will say I have been baptized and blessed as my self and comfurmed in my church too. So hang in there!

[Melody Moore]

Wow, lots of emotions here pertaining to religion.
I wonder why? Could it be that some of us have had nothing but bullsh!t
rammed down our throats when we were just seeking the truth? God has
been part of my life since I was a child and this was something I also fought
with until one day 1 Corinthians 6 jumped out and slapped me in the face,
then I realised how many blasphemous bigots there really was out there.

[Steph.TS]

just a quick update I have a meeting with 2 LGBT affirming pastors I'll be talking to about a Biblical response to opposing transitioning.

[Melody Moore]

Why Steph?

More roadblocks again?

Can't you read and interpret yourself the true meaning of 1 Corinthians 6 ?

I am happy to hear that you are seeking more appropriate religious support,
however be sure to ask them to explain this chapter properly to you.

[BonnieSue]

Religion is not interfering in anyone's live's. The Bible is the word of God. You either obey it or you don't. It does not make any one do any thing. God does not want robots. HE wants people to love and obey him. You have to make up your own mind on your own. No one will make you to anything when it comes to a church that is true but they also don't have to allow you in either. I made my mind up to cross dress and lost my church in doing so and IT IS MY DECISION not God's or the church period. Look in side your self don't blame other's or Religion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BonnieSue]

Hell will be full of those who follow their gut. When a person does not listen to the Holy Spirit long enough, He quits speaking to them.

[Badtranny]

Hell will be full of those who follow their gut. When a person does not listen to the Holy Spirit long enough, He quits speaking to them.

Says you.

How long have you been the spokesperson for the Holy Spirit? Must be a cool job.

By the way, I follow my gut as often as my courage will allow, so I suppose I'll eventually be residing in hell. Hopefully Heaven's civil servants will pay us a visit now and then.

[Bree-asaurus]

Steph, why is it so hard to find your own interpretation of the bible and what you believe god actually is rather than blindly listening to other who are just going to tell you their interpretation?

[Miranda-E]

Religion is not interfering in anyone's live's. The Bible is the word of God. You either obey it or you don't. It does not make any one do any thing. God does not want robots. HE wants people to love and obey him. You have to make up your own mind on your own. No one will make you to anything when it comes to a church that is true but they also don't have to allow you in either. I made my mind up to cross dress and lost my church in doing so and IT IS MY DECISION not God's or the church period. Look in side your self don't blame other's or Religion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Hell will be full of those who follow their gut. When a person does not listen to the Holy Spirit long enough, He quits speaking to them.

See what we mean.
no robots, but OBEY!!!

[Schatten Lupus]

My question is; why do you need to be allowed to transition? There are many documented cases of some plants and animals changing there sex, and since we are animals and a part of nature then this is simply the way we are. Your Pastor probably has nothing more than his own Biblical interpretation to go by, as do you and the GLBT affirmed pastors. Really you two can go back and forth, using your own verses for your own means, and get no where. But really any church in existence is based upon someone's personal translation of the Bible, such as someone like Fred Phelps using a few verses to justify his hatred while other pastors use a few verses to justify openly allowing those from the GLBT community. And honestly there are some good churches out there, and if your pastor cannot accept you then I would say most definitely he is not at all a good pastor because he is making the conscious decision to turn certain people away, even though Jesus made it very clear he loved everyone, except for those who tainted the temple with their money.


Hell will be full of those who follow their gut. When a person does not listen to the Holy Spirit long enough, He quits speaking to them.


Some of us would rather go there anyways. In my experience what was hell was the Church (Baptist) convincing me that to be myself was to forfeit going to Heaven, and that I had to live with such a terrible and miserable burden. This drove me to hate myself, which I say in confidence there is no greater hell.


See what we mean.
no robots, but OBEY!!!
I have a problem with the obedience part, especially when it's to a God whose Holy Scripture that was penned by men that God was working through, says it's ok for a husband to sell his wife and daughter into slavery.

[kimdl93]

Says you.

How long have you been the spokesperson for the Holy Spirit? Must be a cool job.

By the way, I follow my gut as often as my courage will allow, so I suppose I'll eventually be residing in hell. Hopefully Heaven's civil servants will pay us a visit now and then.

Dying man couldn't make up his mind which place to go to -- both have their advantages, "heaven for climate, hell for company!"-Mark Twain

[Aprilrain]

Steph, since your pastor and bible interpretation shopping i was wondering if you could pick up a few things for me.
I really need answers to some of these rather pressing questions! Of course most of these questions would apply to my husband if i had one since according to biblical law as a woman i really have no rights (i think im barely considered a person actually?)

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. (no shit sherlock!)

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath.Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle- room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

[ReineD]

I say God not my pastor and not my church, I will be heart broken if thing go south believe me, but I honestly believe strongly that I'm right and I'm going to need him to hit me with some hard scriptures to show me I'm wrong.


I started looking for another church incase things gone south. I also plan to speak to another pastor I know if this pastor doesn't respect my views.


The word of God is open to interpretation, witness all the different religions on this planet. Everyone believes they are right, and the others are wrong. Wars have been fought over differences in spiritual beliefs. The contents of our various Holy Books (the Bible is only one of them) were debated for centuries, in fact there are many texts that have not made it into the Bible and this was a decision made by Man and not God.

You are making a wise decision, in preparing to find an interpretation that you agree with. Here's a link to GLBT friendly churches, all over the world. Just click on the appropriate country for a list of more open-minded pastors in your area. :)

http://www.gaychurch.org/Find_a_Church/find_a_church.htm

Also, I believe the Metropolitain Community Churches (MCC) is trans friendly:
http://mccchurch.org/ourchurches/find-a-church/

[Mikaela]

1. Leviticus 25:44
// snip //
Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Classic, but proof that people really do cherry pick their faith. Which of course means that if we have a sense of morals that transcends the Bible (or Quran or Necronomicon or whatever), then our sense of morals is innate and not something we need dictated to us. (A whole chapter in Dawkins' God Delusion on this).

Then again, history shows that our morals only apply to what we perceive as our tribe or affiliation, which is why we're always looking to see who to include or exclude.

[Bree-asaurus]

Also, I believe the Metropolitain Community Churches (MCC) is trans friendly:
http://mccchurch.org/ourchurches/find-a-church/

Yuppers. Our local transexual support group meets up in our local MCC.


Classic, but proof that people really do cherry pick their faith. Which of course means that if we have a sense of morals that transcends the Bible (or Quran or Necronomicon or whatever), then our sense of morals is innate and not something we need dictated to us. (A whole chapter in Dawkins' God Delusion on this).

Then again, history shows that our morals only apply to what we perceive as our tribe or affiliation, which is why we're always looking to see who to include or exclude.

"And as Jesus said as he came down from the mountain: Let ye who hath worn the cloths of the opposite sex BURN IN FIERY HELL!" ... or something like that...

I think if god actually cared what cloths we wore, humanity is screwed already. Over the generations trends have changed so much. Men used to wear tights and heels and dresses and skirts... women wear pants and shorts these days. I mean seriously, who decides what cloths we're supposed to wear? The first king that wore a dress... maybe he went to hell, but then since a single man wore a dress, it then became a male garment... so all future kings could wear dresses with no problem?

It's just so ridiculous... why the hell would a god define or care what we wear? Where do we draw the line between shorts, skorts and skirts? Yeah yeah... we can cut babies in half, but if a man wears a fitted shirt he's going to hell!

[Steph.TS]

Steph, why is it so hard to find your own interpretation of the bible and what you believe god actually is rather than blindly listening to other who are just going to tell you their interpretation?
Because I can error, and yes Pastors can too but they know the Bible better than I. I do have an interpretation of the scriptures I'm simply trying to comfirm them...


You are making a wise decision, in preparing to find an interpretation that you agree with. Here's a link to GLBT friendly churches, all over the world. Just click on the appropriate country for a list of more open-minded pastors in your area. :)

http://www.gaychurch.org/Find_a_Church/find_a_church.htm

Also, I believe the Metropolitain Community Churches (MCC) is trans friendly:
http://mccchurch.org/ourchurches/find-a-church/
Thanks, I actually found the 2 LGBT friendly pastors via gaychurch. :) had a phone conversation with one to set up a meeting, and she was so accepting, I felt alot of peace talking to her.


Classic, but proof that people really do cherry pick their faith. Which of course means that if we have a sense of morals that transcends the Bible (or Quran or Necronomicon or whatever), then our sense of morals is innate and not something we need dictated to us. (A whole chapter in Dawkins' God Delusion on this).

Then again, history shows that our morals only apply to what we perceive as our tribe or affiliation, which is why we're always looking to see who to include or exclude.

I laughed a bit when you compare the Bible and the Necronomicon lol but people do cherry pick, walk into any mainstream church and they'd have you believe Jesus would vote republican/concervative... in many many ways I think the church has lost it's way and forgotten who Jesus was... Example: he healed the sick and the lame for free! wouldn't that mean he is for universal health care? :P

anyways speaking of the necronomicon, you HAVE you see this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnbYcB9ctu8

[Bree-asaurus]

Because I can error, and yes Pastors can too but they know the Bible better than I. I do have an interpretation of the scriptures I'm simply trying to comfirm them...

Well even when looking at just the quotes from the bible in this thread... i'm sure you can see that the bible is full of contradictions. The bible isn't the word of god. The bible was written by man and man's interpretation of what was going on during the time of the bible.

If you're just going to go from pastor to pastor until you find one that says what you like, what are you really doing anyway? You're just trying to find one person that you can look up to that can also agree with what you are going through... What makes that one pastor's interpretation more important than 90% of the other pastor's out there?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I have to say Steph as I've followed this thread that I am really encouraged by how you are approaching this..

You will find the right church, you will feel good about your faith, and then you can move on..

[Kelsy]

Steph,
I respect you're due diligence in reconciling your beliefs with the direction you want
to take. I took a similar approach though I didn’t take my questions to a pastor. To thine self be true.
Honest evaluation of scripture led me to believe that I am doing nothing as far as transition is
concerned that would adversely affect my relationship with God. Once you clear this huddle then the
door is wide open and you are free to transition because there is no higher authority! But don't let one pastor or one type of church group determine that outcome. I would not have laid my bets on my
fundamentalist sister! In the council of many there is safety!

Kelsy

[Schatten Lupus]

Well even when looking at just the quotes from the bible in this thread... i'm sure you can see that the bible is full of contradictions. The bible isn't the word of god. The bible was written by man and man's interpretation of what was going on during the time of the bible.

And not too mention the various translations that have been done, and poorly at that; and the fact the Bible has been subjected to heavy censoring, editing, and entire books have been omitted for one reason or another.