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Frances

12-21-2011, 03:36 PM

Something happened at the Christmas office party this year that threw me back a little. I have been full-time for a couple of years now, and there has been a huge turn-over in my company. Since I apply the STFU Katesback rule at all times, I don't know how people that knew me before think of me. I am completely convinced that new people see me as a woman, but I got a glimpse into the mind of long-time colleague the other night.

The evening's MC asked the various tables to designate a "captain". We designated this guy who is also somewhat of a friend of mine at work. The MC asked the captains to come to the front with someone of the opposite sex. There were only four women seated at our table and two of them had left for the bathroom. The only two left were me and a very dignified older woman who was not be into party games. My friend, a bit drunk, stood up and said out loud that she was the only woman at the table, while I was seated right next to him and had been talking to him all night long. Other people who have only known me as a woman gave him weird looks. He realized what he had done and asked the new people at the table if they knew why he had said that. I pulled on his pant-leg and told him to shut up.

He asked me if my transition had to be kept a secret. I told him that I could not make people not talk about it, but I didn't and I would hope that others did not. I just did not want to make it conversation topic, especially with new people.

I thought most people had made a switch in their perception of me. Some have, and told me so, but not him. It was obvious that he saw me as a guy still and that it would never change. I will be looking for work elsewhere in the new year.

Teri Jean

12-21-2011, 04:01 PM

Frances, I am sorry he had to be such an idiot. People don't always think and drunk people prove they should not reproduce. I had a co-worker who would not give it a rest and so when I had my retirement party he chose not to attend, thank you. You are a beautiful woman and have so much grace. Let it go and Meryy Christmas. Hugs dear.

Zenith

12-21-2011, 04:01 PM

I'm sorry about that...what a lout...:angry:

kimdl93

12-21-2011, 04:24 PM

The world is full of idiots - and evidently blind ones too. I look at you and see nothing except a genuinely beautiful woman. I don't think you have any obligation to encourage discussion about your transition. For those who never knew you before, why would they need to know or even care. You are. There is no past.

KarenCDFL

12-21-2011, 04:44 PM

Dear Frances,

I am so sorry that you had to be subjected to crap like this. When I hear stories like this all I can think of is it is too bad that racist stupidity like that is not a terminal disease.

That person had no reason to make any comments no matter what he knew. Once again an idiot with low self esteem had to put someone else down to give themselves a boost.

A person that has gone through and has done what you have should have been patted on the back for having the courage to be who you are.

Happy Holidays.

Aprilrain

12-21-2011, 04:47 PM

The past is impossible to escape, complete stealth is a fantasy. Even people who like me and "play along" probably just see a gay man in drag. : (

Frances

12-21-2011, 04:54 PM

Thank you for your words of encouragement and comments. He was not being mean or anything, he was just reacting very innocently. It just happens that I am not a woman for him. He was sorry later for being so clumsy. What I realized is that even though some people treat me as a woman, they are only obliging me. Only the ones that don't know me really view me as a woman.

StevieTV

12-21-2011, 06:08 PM

I'm so sorry that this would happen, especially in Montreal. As long as we can educate one person each day, I think we can make progress. All the best and Merry Christmas.

DanaR

12-21-2011, 06:12 PM

I'm sorry that happened to you. I believe that most people will always see you as you were, when they first saw you.

Jonianne

12-21-2011, 06:36 PM

.....What I realized is that even though some people treat me as a woman, they are only obliging me. Only the ones that don't know me really view me as a woman.

I hope not, Frances. I don't know you, but I bet it's more guys that knew you in the past that will have more difficult time making the transition in their own minds and that's probably just a guy thing. I bet other women can much easier make that change in their hearts and minds to see you as female.

DanaR

12-21-2011, 06:42 PM

.....................It was obvious that he saw me as a guy still and that it would never change. I will be looking for work elsewhere in the new year.
It might be worthwhile to talk to your management, before deciding to look for another job. This guy was completely out of line. If your bosses view you as a valuable employee, they might tell him to tone it down. Coming from them, he might decide that his job may depend on it. If you management just blows it off, then don't say anything else and find another job. It isn't probably isn't worth making a bigger deal over it. I'm sorry.

Frances

12-21-2011, 07:40 PM

Traci Elizabeth

12-21-2011, 08:46 PM

Frances....welcome to the world of realities.

And I don't say that in a derogatory way whatsoever.

I just don't think the fact that at one time you were a male can EVER escape the minds of all who knew you as such. Either down deep or on the surface, you will always be that guy who turned into a woman.

That is why I am a big advocate of total change after completing ones transition. You (me) want others to know us ONLY as women and that is the only way it is going to happen.

I am glad you are considering a new job after the new year, I think you will be much happier.

DanaR

12-21-2011, 08:52 PM

The guy did not say it to hurt me and he recognized his mistake soon enough. The new people don't even know that he almost outed me. There is no situation to talk to managment about. It's more like what DanaR said. Most people will not make the switch in their mind. I understand why some people move to other cities after their transition.

Then in this case, try to put it behind you. I'm sure that he is sorry for what happened. Best of luck and keep us up to date on what you decide to do.

Debb

12-21-2011, 08:58 PM

Frances:

I am, for now, "only" a crossdresser ... but I have a story to relate.

Back in 2003, I worked as a computer operator at a large corporate HQ in downtown Minneapolis. Among the several operators I worked with was "John". We all "knew" that John was gay ... he lived, and slept with, a man. I remember once in a while being an absolute ass, teasing him that it was no coincidence he'd been in the Navy. :-( so much for sensitivity training!

Fast forward to sometime in 2010, when I went to a local gay bar to attend my first meeting of a local transgender-social group. I walked in, and saw Jackie. I recognized her, because I had worked with her, as I'm sure you've figured out, back in 2003.

I have dealt with a lot of guilt over how I acted; had I known, I may have tried to be a little more sensitive and not such a jackass ... but we are who we are, sad to say. I've kinda always been an insensitive jerk.

All this to say: 18 months later, seeing her at least once per month, I can *finally* say I think of her as Jackie, and not as "John". I have a lot of admiration for her, more than I can say, but after some sincere effort, she is Jackie, in my reactions and in my thoughts.

There's a lot to be said for patience. That's probably not the first thing you want to hear right now, but ... it IS possible for people to grow into what they perceive as your new role in life. Being open, and honest, and straightforward about your feelings may help them begin to comprehend this sea-change in your life; their respect for you can only grow.

Suzette Muguet de Mai

12-21-2011, 09:08 PM

I think the guy needs a chance to reflect on what has been done, and the obvious discomfort it has caused you. Sometimes the tongue does wander and so too the mind. Take it like a grain of salt, pinch yourself on the butt and carry on. I am sure that if you show a little coldness towards him he may actually acknowledge in a sober state the problems a runaway tongue can cause.

Elsa Larson

12-21-2011, 09:24 PM

I agree with Tania. Don't overlook that you describe him as a sort of FRIEND. If he was your enemy, he would already have persecuted you. If he had no feelings about you at all, he would ignore you. He may not yet be completely supportive of your gender journey. But he was comfortable seated beside you and making conversation.

I think he's more on your side than you realize. Keep the communication open, accept his apology and see if it strengthens your friendship.

abigailf

12-21-2011, 09:34 PM

I would like to apologize for men like that, but I can't as I lost my man card.

However, it has been my experience that people's perceptions of a person are almost a fixture and it takes an act of god or an act of betrayal to change it.

It takes a long time for history to be forgotten and a couple of years does not constitute history,

If he is sort of a friend, then you should talk to him about it and try to gauge whether he was just being ignorant or was malicious (or just drunk). Tell him it really bothered you and you found it uncomfortable.

gabimartini

12-21-2011, 10:09 PM

Frances, I'm sorry to hear that. What a tactless, disheartening and unnecessary attitude. All in the name of what? Did he really think he was being funny, or something? Geez, some people steal the show in being complete morons. I don't blame you for wanting to look for another job. I hope that you get it, and soon! Good luck! And BTW, you look great in the avatar pic!

docrobbysherry

12-21-2011, 10:46 PM

Very unfortunate for that to happen in front of everyone! However, I'm sure you've heard that old saying, "U only have ONE CHANCE to make a first impression", Frances?

That appears to be true. I recently went to a 40+ high school reunion. I remembered most everyone how they looked back then. Some were completely unrecognizable without name tags! I heard many cute stories about classmates. Cute NOW! Not so back in the day!

Your friend CAN'T HELP the way he thinks of u! He COULD have kept his trap shut, tho!

sandra-leigh

12-22-2011, 01:20 AM

Even knowing what I know, knowing that I should know better, I find it difficult to make the mental switch for anyone who transitioned after I met them -- at least if I had met them when they were presenting in their former gender presentation. For me it is not the fact that someone is transsexual: I know a few who transitioned before I met them and I think of them as their current gender presentation.

I slipped up for a FTM friend last night, right in front of him :sad: (And each time I mentally compose this message I mentally slip up again several times per sentence. :eek: )

Starling

12-22-2011, 06:51 AM

Humans are creatures of habit, and it takes conscious effort to change. Maybe your friend will make that effort now, after seeing how important it is to you.

:) Lallie

TxKimberly

12-22-2011, 07:10 AM

. . . Your friend CAN'T HELP the way he thinks of u! He COULD have kept his trap shut, tho!

I think Sherry said it very well.

As for finding a new job, I guess that depends on how much you like the one that you have. If I liked my job, I wouldn't give it up just because of one thoughtless moment by a drunk coworker.

cindy777

12-22-2011, 07:47 AM

Sorry to hear about your Christmas office party mishap Frances. Sometimes when people have a little to much to drink they say and do dumb things even if they are normally somewhat nice. For this coworker his mind does not look like it will change in his preception of you as a woman. In that case most people mind's eye will always see their sons or daughters as little children no matter what their age.
Unforunately everyone has the capablity to be rude, mean or acting without thought for someone, else including myself. Everyone deserves a second chance, not a sixth or seventh, only if they are truly sorry for what they did. Don't let this incident bring you down or hold you back, like everything in your past you can not change it so you have to move on.
Enjoy the Christmas holidays.

Cindy

LeaP

12-22-2011, 08:04 AM

Even knowing what I know, knowing that I should know better, I find it difficult to make the mental switch ...

I know what you mean, but lately I find myself looking at people so much that sometimes I'm no longer sure of what I'm seeing. It started with observing how many GGs actually could be mistaken for, or pass as male. But over time, I get the impression more and more that the things I see are complete illusions. It's leading me to crack open a bit wider.

The guy at the party appears not to see at all, despite behavior-based apologies after. Sees/meets once. He's "got it." And never sees anything more. I pity the women in such a person's life.

Lea

Leslie Langford

12-22-2011, 10:32 AM

Frances, what I find most compelling about your post is what you didn't say, which is how the prim and proper "very dignified older woman" reacted to your presence at her table.

Since you did not say anything more about her specifically when describing this incident, I can only assume that despite her conservative nature, she was perfectly O.K. with both yourself, your presence at the Christmas party, and your sitting beside her (and presumably interacting with her) in particular. No doubt, she was equally mortified by this lout and felt for you as well, even if perhaps she didn't articulate this.

If I am correct in my assumption, then that behaviour represents true validation of your female "self", and far overrides anything that jerk could have done to try to diminish you.

I also agree with the others that you should not consider leaving your job over this. The only way to deal with bullies is to look them square in the eye and to stare them down. Don't give him that power over you , and remember the old adage that "living well is the best revenge". :thumbsup:

Laurie Ann

12-22-2011, 11:31 AM

Frances I am so sorry to hear about your evening. I am sure you handled with dignity and grace.

Frances

12-22-2011, 11:39 AM

I went full-time May 4th 2009. The company then had around 225 people in it. During the recession, more than half left or were let go. Recently, the company has been hiring more. The result is that more than half the people in the company presently did not see me transition and have no clue about my past.

The dignified older woman in question has been with the company for more than 20 years. She is Chinese and does not speak much French (or English for that matter). She has always very friendly towards me and also says hello, even at the malls around our office building.

The other people at my table (of 10) all knew me before execpt for three or four people. One of them I find very good-looking and flirt with a little once in a while. The "captain" is a friend at the office with whom I talk about music a lot (one of my passions). We joke around and got get coffee sometimes together in the lobby of the office. He was seated to my left. Directly on my right was my best friend at the office. Next to him was the cute guy. The Chinese woman was seated across the table from us.

The MC asked the captain to stand up and bring someone from the opposite sex to come to the dance-floor. He was looking at the Chinese woman and hesitated. I did not want him to pick me anyway because I am not interested in these things. The other two woman had left the table temporarily. He did not seem sure of himself and then said *** is the only woman at the table. He did not say it to imply anything about my gender in front of the others. He just did not see me as another woman. It was very innocent and child-like in its truthfulness. Since cute guy was giving him this weird look, the captain turned to me and realized the impact of what he had said. Quite embarrassed, he then almost made an even bigger blunder by asking cute guy if he knew why he had said that. I pulled on the captain's pant leg and told him to shut up. He wanted to know if my transsexuality had to be kept secrect and I explained to him that I was NOT discussing my transition with new people.

The evening went on with no more talk of this. I went home a little early, fearing other such incidents. This was my third office party as a woman. I thought people were used to the idea enough that even though I use to be guy, that I was woman now. My posting was not about the incident and possible solutions, but more about my feelings and the realization that some people, however nice and friendly they are to me, will never think of me as a woman naturally.

DanaR

12-22-2011, 12:10 PM

....................My posting was not about the incident and possible solutions, but more about my feelings and the realization that some people, however nice and friendly they are to me, will never think of me as a woman naturally.Sadly, this is human nature, it has nothing to do with you. You mentioned earlier that "I understand why some people move to other cities after their transition"; which is a reality that a lot of people use. But when you go this route, there are so many things that you have to give up in your life. Life is a compromise and if you would have gone this route, there could have been issues that cropped up which were similar.

It appears that you have been very brave and been okay up until this point. Try to put it behind you and move on. Most of us have things in our past that pop up from time to time and how well you deal with them is a good measure of how you are as a person.

Please don't let this undermine who you are. Remember, feelings are neither right or wrong, but are the way you feel. I'm sorry that this happened and hope you'll be able to put this behind you.

sandra-leigh

12-22-2011, 01:24 PM

the realization that some people, however nice and friendly they are to me, will never think of me as a woman naturally.

You could well be right, but keep in mind that 2 1/2 years is not really very long.

Analogy: at work, I ran the computing systems and associated infrastructure for 15 years ("systems administrator"). I haven't done that for 5 years, but that's how people still think of me, and even the people I work with most closely do not think of me as more than competent in what I have done since (I am an Expert in aspects of it.)

How long would it take for everyone to start thinking of me "naturally" for the kind of work I do now? At least another 15 years, minimum, I would estimate.

Which reminds me of the adage that it takes as long to "get over" a relationship as the relationship itself lasted.

DanaR

12-22-2011, 01:41 PM

....................Analogy: at work, I ran the computing systems and associated infrastructure for 15 years ("systems administrator"). I haven't done that for 5 years, but that's how people still think of me, and even the people I work with most closely do not think of me as more than competent in what I have done since (I am an Expert in aspects of it.)

How long would it take for everyone to start thinking of me "naturally" for the kind of work I do now? At least another 15 years, minimum, I would estimate.

Which reminds me of the adage that it takes as long to "get over" a relationship as the relationship itself lasted.
I have seen people that started out in shops as an apprentice, that were treated the same for the whole time that they worked for that employer. They were always viewed as the apprentice, or not that experienced. Other people that came to work for the same employer and didn't have as much experience as the previous apprentice employee, actually were treated better and were given more complex and better jobs.

I always believed that moving around from job to job, in a lot of cases is better for your career.

Kaitlyn Michele

12-22-2011, 02:23 PM

Sorry Frances... I hear you... Its a trade off for you that must be difficult to deal with given everything you've accomplished..

I have always felt that my friends and family often think man instead of woman...regardless of their total support of my situation... I have a belief that just like our true gender is real and permanent to us, a persons view of your gender is just as permanent, like an imprint.... and we just need to learn to deal with it...

Stephenie S

12-22-2011, 02:28 PM

What seems to me so very weird about this is that visually, Frances could not possibly be mistaken for a guy. And her voice is perfect too. She is short and cute, and has a feminine shape. She is one of those rare individuals who manage transition totally. This guy may be harboring some deep resentment. Or there may be some other factors we don't know about.

S

Julia_in_Pa

12-22-2011, 03:26 PM

Wow Frances,

How annoying and angering.
Trust me when I say your a beautiful woman.

Julia

Beth-Lock

12-22-2011, 03:35 PM

.... I got a glimpse into the mind of long-time colleague the other night.
....He asked me if my transition ha to be kept a secret. I told him that I could not make people not talk about it, but I didn't and I would hope that others did not. I just did not want to make it conversation topic, especially with new people.

I thought most people had made a switch in their perception of me. Some have, and told me so, but not him. It was obvious that he saw me as a guy still and that it would never change. .

I had a bit of a fright myself recently at the church that I joined after I transitioned. A woman in my women's group there suggested I give a presentation on transgenderism as people would like to learn more about it. I was shocked that she even knew, and asked her how many others knew, but she could not say. Much like you, my first reaction was to decide not to go back to that church after Christmas, but now I am having second thoughts.

Then something else happened today. I asked a nice man I sometimes talk to around my place, if he knew me before or about me, and I told him I had not always been a woman. I had thought of getting into a relationship with him, and thought I would like to know how he would feel about me. The rule this follows, is that it is not anybody's **** business, unless you are ***** them, not that I envisoned that of course. But he alerted me to the fact that there is a third category, beyond people who know and people who don't. He said he was not sure. Since he had definitely seen me before I transitioned, that could mean that some people start to forget. Or that he was just not sure I was the same person.

But the perception thing works both ways, funny enough. You get women friends who know and then say somthing like, "Gee, don't you hate mensturation?" And then you get people who know, accept it totally, and who would get angry at anyone who did not call you a woman or forget to say she and her, instead of he and him, yet they let it slip, unconsiciously one day, that, in some part of their thinking, you are a guy. The human mind is funny.

But I agree with you that the only sure way to be thought of as a woman, is to have people not know. I guess the bottom line is if you will settle for being tolerated, and generally treated well, or want to have the whole thing, passing completely without anyone knowing you are a woman by choice but not by birth.

Anyway, I feel for you. It is the hardest thing to face this issue.