Difference between transgendered and a crossdresser [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Rianna Humble

12-28-2011, 01:45 AM

I don't quite understand the difference between someone who is transgendered and someone who crossdressses.

That is a little bit like saying you don't understand the difference between an apple and fruit. An apple is fruit, but not all fruit is an apple.

In a similar way, someone who cross-dresses other than for professional (and perhaps fetish) reasons is transgender - that is they cross the normally accepted gender behaviour. Transsexuals are also transgender because our whole being crosses the normally accepted gender identity and behaviour.

Since you posted in the transsexual forum, I will make a guess that you are trying to work out for your self whether your transgender goes as far as you being transsexual.

I do not consider myself to be part of any gender - I believe there is a gender spectrum and let's say it was like this
Male-----------+------X--F
I would be where the X is and it does shift around from time to time, but it never goes all the to the left.. it goes neutral at most.

If you self-identify as more female than male, then you may have gender dysphoria and some may say that you have Gender Identity Disorder, but the question for me would be what level of distress is caused to you by the disconnect between your natal sex and your gender identity.

I don't have any problem in how i view myself. Like I said, I don't like to think I am part of any gender, but if I had to, it would be female. (And i really think it just depends on my hormones that day.. I don't take hormone replacements.. just our bodies naturally produce estrogen and testosterone)

I am not a doctor, but I don't think that most people's body produces sufficiently marked changes in the balance between testosterone and oestrogen to provoke the kind of shift that you describe. That is not trying to deny what you experience, just suggesting that the cause may be different.

I am 27, and I used to just consider myself a crossdresser years ago, and simply didn't think I was transgendered even though, I really wanted to hvae a female body really badly. and still do.. I just have a lot of areas I need to work out first.

If your dressing was linked to your gender identity then you are definitely transgender. Whether you are transsexual is a separate but equally important question for which only you can provide the answer. I am curious what the "other areas" might be that are more important to you than congruence between your gender identity and your body.

could a lot of crossdressers be transgendered? perhaps just living in denial?

As stated above a lot of cross-dressers are transgender, whether they deny it or not, but I think that your intention was to ask if they could be TS in denial. A small number might be, but there are sufficient numbers of cross-dressers whose primary gender identification will always be male for this not to be true in every case.

To refer briefly to my personal experience as an attempt to answer the question I believe you intended to ask. I was in denial for far too long and when it started to come to a head, I tried to use cross-dressing as a coping mechanism. During that period, I was still trying to delude myself that I could be a man (albeit in a dress). So at that time, I would have classed myself as a cross-dresser but would indeed have been TS in denial since I have been TS from birth.

Melody Moore

12-28-2011, 01:56 AM

As stated above a lot of cross-dressers are transgender, whether they deny it or not, but I think that your intention was to ask if they could be TS in denial.
Wrong Rianna, all crossdressers are transgendered.

So to be clear about the terminology TRANSGENDER is not a gender variant,
it is an umbrella terminology that includes Transsexuals, Gender Queers/
Androgynous and Cross-dressers/Transvestites. And personally I think that
the OP falls in the Gender Queer/Androgynous category because their gender
identity is so fluid.

sandra-leigh

12-28-2011, 02:30 AM

So to be clear about the terminology TRANSGENDER is not a gender variant,
it is an umbrella terminology that includes Transsexuals, Gender Queers/
Androgynous and Cross-dressers/Transvestites.

There is a different meaning that is fairly common. The Oxford English Dictionary expresses it as, ""Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender roles, but combines or moves between these." Others instead write in terms of gender identity not matching the body.

The use as an umbrella term was apparently not until the 1980's, with no-operation transition apparently the meaning before that.

Rianna Humble

12-28-2011, 06:10 AM

There is a different meaning that is fairly common. The Oxford English Dictionary expresses it as, ""Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender roles, but combines or moves between these." Others instead write in terms of gender identity not matching the body.

Transsexuals, Gender Queer, Androgynous and identity Cross-dressers all fall directly under this distinction. The first because we move from Male to Female or from Female to Male. The others move between those roles

The use as an umbrella term was apparently not until the 1980's, with no-operation transition apparently the meaning before that.

So, because a term has only been defined in a particular way for over 30 years, should we eschew that definition in favour of one that appeared when the term was first coined?

Kimberly Long

12-28-2011, 07:41 AM

I do not consider my self as a crossdresser, I am not a transexual, I am a Transgender. I was a crossdresser all most all of my life, I became a transgender when I started HRT, got rid of all of my male clothing, and started living a a woman full time. I present my self as a woman 24/7. I am not going for any surgery due to my age, therefore. I am so pleased with who I am now, and enjoy everyday of my life as a woman.
Love Kimberly

Amber99

12-28-2011, 07:57 AM

Transgender seems like a really useless word that only leads to confusion.

Sara Jessica

12-28-2011, 08:57 AM

Melody Moore

12-28-2011, 09:48 AM

Amber, in a nutshell that is correct, there are many in the community who are in favour of
dropping the transgender label from all support groups etc. We have been talking about this
as well. Many are calling for the use of "Sex & Gender Diverse" instead of Transgender.

Many people in society assume that transgender also means transsexual, so they call a transsexual
person a transgender person. And this is really offensive to a transsexual person because they get
mixed up and confused with the crossdressing or transvestite community who are included now under
the transgender umbrella, so some of us are keen to distance themselves from that. We also need to
be clearly identified because a transsexual should always have the rights to use a gender appropriate
toilet, but I don't think a male crossdresser should be allowed to enter a female toilet. Women & kids
have been sexually abused already, so we need to be able to control this. If you are not legally identified
as a female which also requires a doctors certificate to prove it, then you don't belong in the ladies toilets.

Personally if someone outside the trans community ever refers to me a transgender or a trans person
then they are going to have one very pissed off bitch to deal with. I also think its a huge insult as an
intersex/transsexual female. So the sooner we can get right away from the "trans' tags the better.

Pythos

12-28-2011, 11:46 AM

Labels people, that is all they are. Please don't get pissed off at those that use Transgendered as an umbrella. It helps nothing and just makes the one protesting look silly (this excludes intersexed individuals, they are not trans, they just are....which should not be a hindrance upon them a all)

sandra-leigh

12-28-2011, 11:53 AM

So, because a term has only been defined in a particular way for over 30 years, should we eschew that definition in favour of one that appeared when the term was first coined?

There are multiple current definitions of the term; the umbrella usage was a co-opting of the original term and is not completely accepted, and has not replaced the original meaning.

Consider for example that I visit at least one site every work day. "Site" here meaning distinct series of web pages, as it has come to mean since 1991. But that doesn't mean that when my neighbor says he visits a site, that he is talking about computers: to him it means that he has gone somewhere physically to work on his construction-related job. The fact that a new meaning for a word has been added does not mean that the old meanings are no longer valid.

(I need to run off to an appointment, so I will update this response later with another point.)

Melody Moore

12-28-2011, 12:16 PM

It helps nothing and just makes the one protesting look silly
Then there are lots of "silly" people out there protesting about this eh?

I am sure they are not silly, some just don't like the term PERIOD especially post-op transsexuals
and intersex people who I have found refuse to be part of any group that calls themselves a
"transgender" support group but have no issues being part of a "Sex and Gender Diverse" group.
You will see this more and more in the future I am sure after some recent meetings I have been to.

Why We Shouldn't Use the Word 'Tranny' (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lance-bass/why-we-shouldnt-use-the-word-tranny_b_1168078.html)

*Vanessa*

12-28-2011, 01:43 PM

The overwhelming majority of cross dresses are hetrosexual males that dress for a variety of reasons ranging from sexual fetishes to female illusion.

Transsexuals whether that be FTM or mtf examples are defined as having GID.

Gender identity disorder (GID) is the formal diagnosis used by psychologists and physicians to describe persons who experience significant gender dysphoria (discontent with their biological sex and/or the gender they were assigned at birth). It describes the symptoms related to transsexualism, as well as less severe manifestations of gender dysphoria. GID is classified as a medical disorder by the ICD-10 CM[1] and by the DSM-IV TR.[2].

Many but not all Transsexual people are driven to transition from one gender presentation to the other.

Cross dressers have no medical diagnosis or descriptive concerning their "need" or desires concerning wearing cloting of the opposite sex.

They do however have a mental disorder diagnosis.

Transsexual people ave little in common with cross dressers other than perhaps clothing.

I'm intersexed and exist in a different classification due to biologically having attributes of both sexes.

Julia

Absolutely, I agree with what Julia has stated here.

Some may have valid reasons to only use the word Transgender in the context of an umbrella term. Transgender is also a descriptive for persons that suffer gender dysphoria that have no want to transition. Like myself...
We all suffer, why just change the packaging (rhetorical)?

Melody Moore

12-28-2011, 02:01 PM

Transgender is also a descriptive for persons that suffer gender dysphoria that have no want to transition. Like myself...
Sorry, but you might be transgender, but more descriptively you fall into gender queer/
androgynous categories if you are not intending to ever undergo gender transition.

Transgender identities from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender

2.1 Transsexual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#Transsexual)
2.2 Cross-dresser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#Cross-dresser)
2.3 Transvestite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#Transvestite)
2.4 Drag kings and queens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#Drag_kings_and_queens)
2.5 Genderqueer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#Genderqueer)
2.6 People who live cross-gender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#People_who_live_cross-gender)
2.7 Androgyne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#Androgyne)
2.8 Bigender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#Bigender)

LeaP

12-28-2011, 02:42 PM

Sorry, but you might be transgender, but more descriptively you fall into gender queer/
androgynous categories if you are not intending to ever undergo gender transition.

Since we're quoting Wikipedia, its worth pointing out that "gender queer" is described as yet another umbrella term (which can even include transsexuals). It also points out that some in this category prefer "transgender". One reason for that is to avoid politics. Personally, I think "gender queer" is one of the worst terms in the gender lexicon.

Lea

*Vanessa*

12-28-2011, 04:20 PM

@Melody Moore
There are far too many resources throughout the world that make others look wrong. Am I right?
I'll stick the transgender thank-you... As would many that know me and how WPATH likes to refer to me as. But truly I am just me, feel free to call me anything you like.

Pythos

12-28-2011, 04:25 PM

and Intersexed DO NOT fit in the "trans" category. They are as they are, and there should be NO stigma attached to what they are. I am in love with one, and the crap she has gone through just for being what she is is horrendous. She is NOT Trans anything.

I however AM. I may be androgynous, but I am still Trans. But, when a woman wears men clothes SHE is also Trans, it is just that one is more acceptable, than the other.

Julia_in_Pa

12-28-2011, 04:42 PM

I fully agree with this Melody.

TS/IS people do not have much in common with the overall gender umbrella.

I take huge offense in being classified as being part of a umbrella term that includes heterosexual men that gain sexual satisfaction from masterbating in pantyhose and attempts to garner some sort of acceptance by claiming transgender status.
This is why you see a ever growing divide between TS/IS people and the term transgender.

Julia

Then there are lots of "silly" people out there protesting about this eh?

I am sure they are not silly, some just don't like the term PERIOD especially post-op transsexuals
and intersex people who I have found refuse to be part of any group that calls themselves a
"transgender" support group but have no issues being part of a "Sex and Gender Diverse" group.
You will see this more and more in the future I am sure after some recent meetings I have been to.

Why We Shouldn't Use the Word 'Tranny' (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lance-bass/why-we-shouldnt-use-the-word-tranny_b_1168078.html)

*Vanessa*

12-28-2011, 08:09 PM

wow Julia "heterosexual men that gain sexual satisfaction from masterbating in pantyhose" now there is a visual I could do without.. ( this ends the reference to your post)

con't
Terms are fluid, they move in definition from country to country and continent to continent. It is only healthy to understand others in their meanings and how they use them.

I think everyone here know that there is a huge deference between TS and CD without talking inclusions of definitions from various sources. I also think it is old fashion to try force people into a binary format, that just doesn't work any more.

Miranda-E

12-28-2011, 08:40 PM

I take huge offense in being classified as being part of a umbrella term that includes heterosexual men that gain sexual satisfaction from masterbating in pantyhose and attempts to garner some sort of acceptance by claiming transgender status.

Julia

That line will be famous for a while.
The cold hard fact is she's right.

Crossdressers don't have a gender identity issue and most will tell you so. Allways clinging to the safety of being seen as a man.
Crossdressers are coat tail riders hoping someone else will justify their fetish for them while they are to busy trying to find new ways to hide their toys. The few that do manage to skulk to their car before the neighbors see them, head to gay clubs for acceptance and the disgusting part is they didn't and wouldn't do the work that made it possible for those places to exist in the 1st place.

Crossdressers want to come to the transgender party and be under the "umbrella", well, do some of the work and stop acting like you're entitled to others fighting in public for you while you dont even have the guts to fight for yourself in personal relationships.

Kaitlyn Michele

12-28-2011, 09:02 PM

More and more people are getting to know what transsexuals are , and transsexuals are slowly finding a place in day to day life...

every time someone mislabels us is a step back...it matters.

the no labels, i'm just me idea is fine...but it only goes so far, and it does nothing for transsexual men and women....

In my mind, saying "im just me" is a cop out...if its not important to you, then just go be you..whatever you are..

Melody Moore

12-28-2011, 10:11 PM

I'll stick the transgender thank-you...
Thats fine, believe whatever you want, but the fact remains transgender is still it's an umbrella term
regrdless of whatever you might believe. And the fact is other people will define you however they see
you. In this case I still believe that you fall under the Gender Queer/Androgynous categories regardless
of whatever you think. It is my right to form my own opinion. I know I might sound like a bitch in saying
that, however the reality is others will always draw their own conclusions whether you agree with it or not.

And don't worry I had some stupid bitch in my support group was running around spreading a rumour
that I was a "Crossdresser" and that I wasn't even on hormones. And I was thinking that I might plop
my breast out in front of her one day & slap some truth & sense into her. PMSL :heehee: So none of us are
immune to the problem of being mislabelled by others. However in many instances I have seen some people
mislabelling themselves, while others who know the differences apply the proper labels. For example, I see
many here who believe they are transsexual but because they haven't come out yet, been diagnosed and
started hormone therapy & taken one single step towards they cannot really make any claim about being
transsexual. So these people are trying to work out where they fit in the transgender spectrum, so is all
they know at this point is that they are transgendered.

I may be androgynous, but I am still Trans.
That's OK, being androgynous is being transgender yeah? So noone is disputing that.
As for the woman who wears mens clothes, that is a load of crap. I know lots of women
who wear men's uniforms or clothing when they go to work for practical reasons. Such
as a female electrician, mechanic, factory workers, farm hands, etc. The fact is Pythos
clothing don't define who you are. If you are a male who likes to dress up in female clothing,
the fact is you still are just a man in a female clothing or more specifically you might be a
drag queen, crossdresser or transvestite. I have seen male cheer leaders wearing the same
clothing as the girls, such as shorts & a sports bra, but that does NOT make the trans anything.
They are simply men who are dressing in a uniform that is part of their job as cheer leaders.

TS/IS people do not have much in common with the overall gender umbrella.

I take huge offense in being classified as being part of a umbrella term that includes heterosexual men that gain sexual satisfaction from masterbating in pantyhose and attempts to garner some sort of acceptance by claiming transgender status.
This is why you see a ever growing divide between TS/IS people and the term transgender.
Thank you Julia, this is what I have also been seeing in the community. I am a member of many transgender,
transsexual and intersex networks and this is so true. We are keen to distance ourselves from those who
engage in transvestic fetishism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestic_fetishism). I know many peoiple don't want to allow the fetishists to be part of the
Sex & Gender Diverse community, because they don't have any issues with their birth sex or gender identity
and that is why I believe we are now starting to see this new movement within the community.

they move in definition from country to country and continent to continent. It is only healthy to understand others in their meanings and how they use them.
...
I also think it is old fashion to try force people into a binary format, that just doesn't work any more.
First of all they don't vary between the most modern countries who all share in the same WPATH SoC.

And quite the contrary, I think the earlier part of this post where I replied to Julia highlights why there needs to be
more distinct definitions. Sorry, I don't want to be included in the same basket as you or any other crossdresser.

JulieK1980

12-28-2011, 10:24 PM

I'm not sure what "I" am. I'm not sure if I care or not. I'm not really sure what labels matter and which don't. But, I can tell you what the actual dictionary definitions are.

Transgender: An umbrella term that encompasses any and all people that do not fit the confines of a binary gender society. The fruit analogy someone put is apt. Transgender is like the category "Fruit" while Crossdressers and Transexuals are specific types of fruit.

-Crossdressers
-Transexuals
-Intersexed

In a nutshell anybody that isn't 100% physically and mentally one gender. (I will leave out Melody's rather lengthy subcategories and stick to the generic ones here)

Crossdresser: A person that wears the clothes of the opposite gender. Notice the period at the end of the sentence. It goes no deeper than that. It includes fetishistic crossdressers, and it includes anyone else that wears the clothes that are meant for the opposite of their biologic gender. Also note, nowhere in that definition is "masturbating to a pair of panties." However, if someone wears a pair of them, and then masturbates they would be a crossdresser.

Crossdressing is a VERB. It's an action. Doing something. A crossdresser, is a person doing that something. IE descriptive noun.

ronny

12-28-2011, 10:30 PM

Oh..there is a big difference..but just be you and let it happen naturally in time..whichever you are is ok!!

Roni

*Vanessa*

12-29-2011, 12:33 AM

@Melody Moore to refer to me as a crossdresser is laughable, straight up!!

Also note, there is no room for anyone else in my basket, it is mine and that's that. People must have smoked a big fatty to think I care what you think of me. Anyone can use copy/paste in hopes of look smart. If the argument is weak it will prove out otherwise as it was clearly illustrated. If egos have been bruised it is not my doing, I have only replied in kind as everyone who has the right to.

My life is mine and only mine. I carry no rifle or banner for anyone other then the ones suffering. Yet there are so many here that love to jump on the backs of the ones who will not fall in line. Sorry I am not that lemming.

I feel sorry that you have had people do you harm, we have all had that experience. I also feel that that 'heterosexual male' Julia was talking about most be laughing his arse off reading these arguments as they are so far removed from the OP.

I am transgender, without the umbrella. Someone with a bit of GID so what!?

docrobbysherry

12-29-2011, 01:38 AM

It may be over-simplifying things but I tend to break it down as follows....

Crossdressing is something one does.

Transsexual is what someone is.

Now to fit the term transgender into the big picture seems to complicate matters but that probably is an apt term, the big picture.
This may be simplistic, but it works and applies to me! When I suddenly started dressing at age 50, I wanted real breasts and fantasized about becoming female! My dressing gradually ramped up as my desire to become female waned.

When I finally came out of the closet online here, I finally found out what being a CD/TG/TS meant. I heard that, "Wait 2 years and you'll be TS". And, I read all about everyone's fem feelings inside! After 4 years here, I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop! But now, I've pretty much given up finding my fem side or feeling trans.
So, if I'm not trans and all desires to become female have vanished, I wonder why dressing is still such a thrill for me after nearly 15 years!? But, it IS!

Melody Moore

12-29-2011, 02:02 AM

@Melody Moore to refer to me as a crossdresser is laughable, straight up!!
Excuse me Vanessa, please show me where I ever referred to you as a crossdresser?

You admitted that you were not transsexual, so my guess you are somewhere in between putting
you somewhere in the Gender Queer and Androgyous categories posssibly under the category of
People who live cross-gender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#People_who_live_cross-gender) but NEVER did I ever refer to you as a crossdresser. So please!!!!

I really hate communicating via any form of text, chat, forums etc because people lack literacy skills
and often misread text communications all the time. I even do it sometimes, so I'm not perfect either,
but I am not misreading anything here. So take more note next time before you accuse me of making
statements that I never made. So straight up, its laughable that you made this stupid accusation.

So what else do you do for tricks? :heehee:

Kelsy

12-29-2011, 05:25 AM

Under what catagory do we file the folks with internalized transphobic problems who cannot self identify as transsexual even with a GID diagnosis?:)

Kelsy

12-29-2011, 05:32 AM

Way to much emphasis on which pigeon hole we can stick someone. I could never see any of this
in such black and white terms. I am sure that if I strung out my entire history there could be catagories
not mentioned here. All I want is reliable support and people I can trust.

suzy1

12-29-2011, 05:54 AM

Melody Moore

12-29-2011, 08:13 AM

Calling another member stupid, and saying “it’s laughable that you made this stupid accusation”
Or using phrases like “pissed off” is sad and not necessary.

Really? Well how come you never commented about these statements Suzy?

@Melody Moore to refer to me as a crossdresser is laughable, straight up!!
...
People must have smoked a big fatty to think I care what you think of me.

Why single me out here Suzy? especially since I never cast the first stone here.

I gave my opinion and this is the crap I get. Noone has to agree with me.
Don't like what I have to say then by all means, put me on your ignore list.

If you want to throw crap at me, then you can always expect to get it straight back!

LeaP

12-29-2011, 08:39 AM

I appreciate Julia's and Melody's adamant statements, actually, as they FINALLY made it clear to me what their (the TS/IS population, that is) issue is with the term. (Sorry, but I'm slow sometimes.)

As I might paraphrase it, trivial behavior isn't relevant to gender itself, no matter how unusual. Some of it (the sexual stuff) creates implications for those thereby associated. I was always more focused on the "gender" in "transgender."

What I would venture, though, is that a crossdresser that feels compelled to dress at any level probably creeps in under the umbrella, however they may protest or whatever the level of denial. Do sexual motivations count? Maybe. While I'm inclined to exclude them in the case where the fetishism is just that, I'm mindful that the literature points to early behaviours and identity emergence that starts, or is confused with such things.

Lea

Kaitlyn Michele

12-29-2011, 09:39 AM

for ts people it really is totally about identity. for the ts person, it feels like your life is at stake, it feels like the MEANING of your life is your identity....we transition and that feeling that was destroying us on the inside simply goes away...it goes away because the simple act of living as a female fulfills our nature in a way that allows us to survive and hopefully move on to a good quality of life in our proper gender role...

There is NO umbrella. That's what it is... EVERYTHING else is different and not comparable...

It gets confusing because many people that currently view themselves as crossdressers, autogynephiles, gender queer, or use the cop out of "i'm just me", are going to realize over time that they are suffering the same feeling of having no meaning in their life without transition...also many crossdressers (and i'm sorry but this is a simple true fact) tend to have their sexual fantasy to "go all the way" and it feels good to compare themselves to ts, and to push the limits of crossdressing by various means...some (sorry reine!! its just some) of those folks will find out over time that the ever increasing need for more and more is really their internal defenses melting away to the realization that it's transition or else...and in these forums i would not be surprised if this is the place where that feeling starts to creep in, and reading posts that challenge their inclusion with transsexuals gets a strong reaction

IN your day to day life as a crossdresser, you keep your male name, you keep your male job, your male relationships, and outside of en femme time, you are referred to as male...regardless of how often you dress and present female, your male life fulfills you in the same way my female life fulfills me...
the gender binary society has many benefits not the least of which is being able to communicate effectively to each other, people communicate to me as female..this is part of my fulfilled life...people communicate to cd's as male (except en femme) and calling a crossdresser a transgender person seems wrong... calling the behaviour transgender seems fine...

In the day to day life a transsexual, the act of transitioning may be transgender behaviour as well, but its anthema to say after transition that we are transgender...even though many people do just that, and many transsexuals accept it...i've accepted in the past, but the more i see my old life in the rear view mirror, the less i like the term

For the people who live in between, it's impossible for me to say...there are so many different views and i would venture that alot of people are very upset, focused on their inability to transition, or just confused and uncertain about themselves and settle for something other than transition, and others are quite secure in their own understanding that they are a third/blended/fluid gender... all of them are very unhappy thinking of themselves as crossdressers...and there is no easy classification other than perhaps transgendered ... but this group is not transsexual and only compares to transsexuals at the most superficial level....

i do think the OP has it right in a way...whats the difference between tg and cd??? that's a fair question, but in my mind, i've realized over the years that its best to leave the ts out of that equation...

Julia_in_Pa

12-29-2011, 09:57 AM

Kelsy,

We call those people confused and stuck in a catch-22 of denial versus acceptance of themselves.

I've seen it over and over again.

It appears that the majority of these people will never progress past any sort of part time experience due to their inability to accept themselves as who and what they are.

The phrase you wrote "" Cannot self identify as transsexual "" can be resolved by continued therapy and the ability of the person to stop the denial and accept the fact that they are truly transsexual.

Julia

Under what catagory do we file the folks with internalized transphobic problems who cannot self identify as transsexual even with a GID diagnosis?:)

Pythos

12-29-2011, 11:12 AM

I take huge offense in being classified as being part of a umbrella term that includes heterosexual men that gain sexual satisfaction from masterbating in pantyhose and attempts to garner some sort of acceptance by claiming transgender status.

Julia
That line will be famous for a while.
The cold hard fact is she's right.

Crossdressers don't have a gender identity issue and most will tell you so. Allways clinging to the safety of being seen as a man.
Crossdressers are coat tail riders hoping someone else will justify their fetish for them while they are to busy trying to find new ways to hide their toys. The few that do manage to skulk to their car before the neighbors see them, head to gay clubs for acceptance and the disgusting part is they didn't and wouldn't do the work that made it possible for those places to exist in the 1st place.

Crossdressers want to come to the transgender party and be under the "umbrella", well, do some of the work and stop acting like you're entitled to others fighting in public for you while you dont even have the guts to fight for yourself in personal relationships.

These posts are two of the most offensive and thoughtless and hate filled posts I think I have ever seen here. They are full of such wrong stereotypes.

I FOR ONE am not riding on ANYONE'S coat tails!!! I also do not get sexual satisfaction by only wearing pantyhose. I DO get aroused by the thought of my GF running her hands up and down my pantyhosed legs. There is a bit of a difference. I also do not "skulk" out to my car. I do not go to gay bars. I DO wear what I like when the people involved ARE NOT my mother, nor my aviation related people. One day both of those will change.

As far as finding new ways to hide my "fetish", You can take that attitude and toss it!!! I am sick of hiding. I am sick of running under radar. But I am also sick of being associated with pedophiles, rapists, sodomites (which even if you are male and having anal with a female...you are in fact a sodomite), and so on. I am tired of being called a pervert for preferring one look and set of clothing opposed to what I am "assigned" by what I have between my legs.

Also, WHAT THE HELL DOES IT MATTER?!!! Why does it matter that an umbrella term is used (except as I have noted in the case of the IS individual) for all those, MALE AND FEMALE, that choose to blur the gender lines in one way or another?

As far as not having the guts to fight. Once again take that attitude and shove it. I DO fight the best I can. If I was anymore out though I could LOSE MY JOB as well as MY HOME. So at this point I can't do as I would like. Reason being there simply are not enough out there supporting myself as well as others, and those that could help....choose instead to insult, and make claims like I am "riding coat tails"

Also, I have at this time NO desire to fully transition. At present the only thing that could have me do such a thing was if my GF (or wife) honestly requested it, and even then it would have to be serious want.

Some here just insinuated an umbrella term for me as well as others here, and that is pervert. To have people on this forum refer to other members here in that manner is really offensive.

What upsets me is that what I do HURTS NO ONE, it takes the air from no one, it ruins nobody's lives, and aside from making people think, does no harm to someone's mental abilities.

If the day comes that they start rounding up the "freaks" and sending them to processing camps, it won't matter. We will ALL fit under one category whether you like it or not.

Sara Jessica

12-29-2011, 11:19 AM

I take huge offense in being classified as being part of a umbrella term that includes heterosexual men that gain sexual satisfaction from masterbating in pantyhose and attempts to garner some sort of acceptance by claiming transgender status.

While I see your POV Julia, I think the problem in what you present is that most of the people you describe are so much in the shadows that they have little interest in the broader TG community and give little, if any thought to co-op'ing themselves into transgender status. Their behavior may be transgendered in a clinical sense but their own POV is not likely to be seen as such. Sort of like what I said before, they do what they do but are not defined by this as who they are. To cite this type of individual as something that is threatening in any way to the issues on the TS side of things seems really inflammatory.

for ts people it really is totally about identity. for the ts person...

Right on!

There is NO umbrella. That's what it is... EVERYTHING else is different and not comparable...

But the umbrella exists, for better or worse. It's a method of description and also provides for a way to visualize the theory of a continuum in our world.

Going back to Julia's lovely visual ;), I have no problem with placing the pantyhose-wearer she describes on one end of the continuum and the fully transitioned woman on the other end with an infinite number of points in between. If we accept this as a general premise (go with me here), then it would also be fair to define that continuum as something which transforms from activity on one end (the cross-dresser who is defined by what they do) to a state of being on the other (the woman who once may have described herself as being transsexual, also a state of being).

This is not to say that movement along the continuum is a given, ie - Mr. Pantyhose-wearer is not likely to move into TS territory as a matter of course. Yet there can be movement when it comes to moments of self-realization as to what this whole thing means to us.

...and calling a crossdresser a transgender person seems wrong... calling the behaviour transgender seems fine...

Right, kind of how I described above.

In the day to day life a transsexual, the act of transitioning may be transgender behaviour as well, but its anthema to say after transition that we are transgender...even though many people do just that, and many transsexuals accept it...i've accepted in the past, but the more i see my old life in the rear view mirror, the less i like the term

But isn't that the ultimate goal, to be fully self-actualized as the woman you are? Even if you are never in a position to be as stealth as you might like, there's nothing inherently wrong with shedding the label transsexual. You are a woman.

For the people who live in between, it's impossible for me to say...there are so many different views and i would venture that alot of people are very upset, focused on their inability to transition, or just confused and uncertain about themselves and settle for something other than transition, and others are quite secure in their own understanding that they are a third/blended/fluid gender... all of them are very unhappy thinking of themselves as crossdressers...and there is no easy classification other than perhaps transgendered ... but this group is not transsexual and only compares to transsexuals at the most superficial level...

Oh Kaitlyn, I thank you for saying this as gently as possible as I'm sure that your friends on a middle path crossed your mind as you wrote this. But there are a couple issues. I think what you are saying speaks to the continuum in that those who might fall in that middle path territory are in that place where we are being rather than doing. Speaking for myself, my sense of being has been ever-present and really isn't any different than what many transsexuals have experienced. The only difference is the choices people have made in their lives, both leading up to the present time and what we might choose to do in the future. I have no shame in co-op'ing the terms transgender or transsexual as words to describe myself even if I live my life in sort of a gender purgatory. However, I really hate to think that in doing so that I might be causing any sort of offense, disrespect or discomfort to anyone on the transitioned side of the fence who wishes to disassociate themselves from the entire umbrella premise. Doing so eliminates many important allies to the ongoing concerns of our community.

*Vanessa*

12-29-2011, 01:03 PM

.
In speaking to the group in general I add this:

A hypothesis based on a collection of innuendos and suspicions hoping that something sticks to a conversation is a weak contribution.

Classifying such a vast field of individuals is at best awkward. I think Transsexuals are best severed under the transgender umbrella. And as a personal comment think the individual that has gone through that process should drop all of the terms they were associated with throughout their journey. It was a journey and now over, you have achieved.

Re-Start from the OP
From the point of view of the Male to Female variant

............Transgender
Transsexual........cross-dresser
Female.............................Male

This description should not be a binary label it has to be a variant to accommodate the field. It is only with a collection of past experiences that makes it possible to move forward. This school of thought does not include trying to talk down to others in an attempt to show how ignorant they may or may not be. The old-school thinker with either let go of their knowledge base or use it to enhance and embrace the new. There is nothing else, time moves on.

In my opinion, to simply throw out baseless opinions about others does nothing whatsoever to help a community and only serves to feed one’s own ego. As well there is no reason for applying backhanded comments in hopes of gaining some type of acceptance. We see it time and time again where emotions simply do not translate well in a textual environment. The result is always someone gets hurt or offended unintentionally. A collection of attitudes towards others is not a premise for classifying anything it is a list of the collector’s bigotry.

There is a tremendous amount of work that has already been done towards clarification of terms. Sure not all agree with that work. That tension is what makes use move forward as part of humanity. Collecting new information is work, hard work. If you don’t question everything then you are not doing yourself any justice. You can see where some don't want to continue down that road. After traveling for so long some want to just say "enough you are wrong I am right" just to end their frustration.

These are my personal thoughts. It is not my intent to discredit anyone, but simply to participate in the thread.

JulieK1980

12-29-2011, 01:22 PM

Maybe some day, science will be able to fully alter a person's gender and this whole debate will be moot. Unfortunately that day isn't now. Until then it does serve a purpose to label. Even just from a medical need, it's important to know the difference in the spectrum. After all if we look at Iran's way of handling gender identity disorder we can see what happens when we don't label the different parts of the tg umbrella. In Iran, not only do they label all tg as GID, they clump homosexuality into it as well. Thus they perform SRS on ALL people whether they are homosexual, crossdressers, transexuals, or otherwise. (This is why they boast that there country has no homosexuals.) Granted this is an extreme example, but I'm sure you can all see the danger of having no labels. You see, we all bicker of the semantics of the labels and where everyone fits, but the REAL purpose of labels is for OTHERS to understand us. I don't know about the rest of you, but I DON'T need to know what my "label" is to be happy, but it is beneficial for other people so as to understand us, and understand that we are not all the same, nor do we have the same needs.

My own humble opinion of the "spectrum" of the tg umbrella is this:

Male......C..............T.........Female
C=Crossdressers
T=Transexual
(Of course each individual falls somewhere on that line specific to themselves, and whether you are stuck at one spot on the line is debatable as well)

And it sucks to be me, because I'm fairly certain I fall somewhere between the two, and thus I have little in common with crossdressers (IE no panty threads for me) and as I'm not planning to transition I don't have much in common with a transitioned TS either.

Kaitlyn Michele

12-29-2011, 03:38 PM

Suzette Muguet de Mai

12-29-2011, 07:25 PM

Could we please ease up. I have no idea on what I am but I feel like there are so many here that are expressing such bitterness towards some of us who have no idea who we are or where we fit, I am thinking seriously about avoiding the forum because I feel such hatred towards some of us. Some of your comments display such harshness that why subject those of us who come here for help and guidance feel rejection. Where do WE go?
Yes it is all very good for those who know who they are and I admire you very much but for god sake ease up on showing hatred and so much dislike to those of us who have no idea.

Damn labels segregate, and cause problems.

Basically I am a human being like everyone.

Julia_in_Pa

12-29-2011, 07:59 PM

Pythos

12-29-2011, 08:13 PM

Julia,

I don't consider myself transexual. I do however fall into the category of Transgendered. This is not a lable I apply to myself, it is what the psyciatry comunity applies to me and my ilk.

now in the case of IS. You are NOT either TS NOR TG. You should not fit into either term.

But you deal with the same hatred and bigotry that CDs, TSs, or anyone else that does not follow the gender norm. You showing the near hatred or disdain for people like myself does nothing for anyone.

Sophiewouldbenice

12-29-2011, 08:33 PM

@ Julia_in_Pa

Well umbrella words are used to strengthen the community and to have more influence in the society. If it due to crossdressers running around for sexual pleasure, that it becomes more normal for others to see guys in "female" clothes, well it could have some good outcome for transsexuals, or make there transition a little bit easier. Of course it could turn out the other way to, when people thing of crossdressers as perverse and include transsexuals into this pattern.

I would not put all crossdressers in the same category. There is of course a reason, why there is word like transgender and also more specific words - and yes there a huge differences which partly show no similarities.

Take me, I consider myself as a heterosexual crossdressers, sexual pleasure is incorporated (fantasies also) and on the other hand this often is just annoying. Even the heterosexual part is only sure for 70-90% and there are moments, where I would really like to transition, but I at least know, I am not a trapped woman in a male body, so it does not make ense for me. So you can put me into this category of a boy you wants to feel more pretty and nice, emotional and sometimes weaker - for whatever reason, and for some other unclear reason I am sometimes a man and sometimes pretty aware of this fact and behave 150% like one. I can switch back and for but this causes also problems with my surrounding, you see the changes in my appearance and people make comments on it, do look more female I have to destroy parts of my male appearance which I like, but which do not go with the more female appearance and vice versa.

So, I do not really know what it is about to go through a transition, but at least I have a small insight by going somewhere en femme. I know about discrimination pretty good, not as you but more than I asked for. Of course I am capable of throwing everything away and behave 100% man alike, I would not break (I am sure), but I would miss it and not for sexual pleasure (I can get a girlfriend and don't need it therefore). So maybe you can tell me, why I make it so difficult for me to get a girlfriend, who understands my desire to be sometimes dressed in "female" clothes and behave a little bit different - it does not make sense if I only do it for sexual stuff, at least not, if I cannot get pleasure from a partner - which I thanksfully can.

So, this is not to offend you in anyway and I have great respect for everyone transitioning, comming from one gender or a bigender and transitioning. But here are also many floating definitions which may lead into each other and as long as the community trys to understand each other, umbrella words should not be offenive, I mean we are all human, another umbrella word.

As a last note, there is the biological gender and a social one, society somehow mixes them and this is probably also one reason why we are all in this one community. This mixture for sure causes irritations and people wanting the female role partly questioning there biological gender, sometimes without sense sometimes it makes sense... so if you don't want such umbrella words, we maybe should divide society and biology - anyway I cannot say how much of society reasons drive a transsexual or if biologic reasons have to dominate (I simply don't know).

You are invited to discuss in detail by private messages ;)

(whoever finds spelling or grammar mistakes can keep them, it is not my mother tongue and it is late here)

SandraAbsent

12-29-2011, 09:03 PM

Wow! I avoided saying this in my first response, but I will go ahead and say it now. Let me first say that I am not fine with the umbrella term. Why? Let me quote something from my blog...

Full Female Experience

Someone made the comment the other day, that a transsexual female could never completely comprehend the full female experience, that having had the male privilege and power in the past, discredits the transexual female from having to endure a position of always being viewed as less than equal.

Really?

As I sit here this very moment sending out resumes for employment knowing full well that my gender identity is on trial every step of the way, how can I not feel as less than equal? It also mistakes that at no point in my life have I felt the "male privilege." As a matter of fact, if comparing to a cis-gender female, she can never fully comprehend the feeling of being less than equal, than I feel at this very moment.

Enough said?

The point being that it is situations like this that confuse people when you consider the "Umbrella." In this case, I am positive she was lumping everything all up in one, and never taking into the consideration that a person that is specifically transsexual or intersexed most likely has never experienced anything other than discrimination based on gender. I'm sorry but Julia was right when she said that if you are transgender, but not transsexual or intersexed and you want your rights back put your other gender back on and enjoy them. The challenge regarding the umbrella term is when it comes to spending time on serious legislation and social awareness programs to improve the lives of those who wish to live in the gender they see themselves as whether that be pre-op, post-op, whatever! Is an openly identified Male that enjoys wearing clothes for whatever reason obligated to the same protections as someone with a medical condition that is trying to live their life comfortably in an opposite gender role. If the answer is yes, where do we draw the line? See now why the umbrella term only serves to confuse things?

In an earlier thread this week in the CDers forum, someone was discussing having to defend themselves at work for being outed for wearing a bra under shirt and tie and being threatened with his job for doing so. Everyone was screaming LAWSUIT!!! I dont think so. I think this is on a totally different playing field when compared to someone trying to transition at work or seek new work to start there transition. Or even being outed and loosing your job years after your SRS. This is just a small example of the huge differences.

I am not anti CDers, or fetishests, or whatever. I have some CD friends and love them to death. Its simple though, some of our challenges are similar, but most of our challenges are totally different.

So back to the original theme of this thread. Im sure you can see there are some pretty big differences based on what you have read in all the posts so far. I only have one thing to ask of CDers. Be mindful of the actions you take when you are in public. Because most of the public doesn't know the difference, they associate you and me together as one. What you do at home, work and play as a CDer does have an effect on me, because it effect how others view the (and i will use the umbrella term here) "Transgender" population. If you let us do our work the result will be a better world for you too!

xoxo
Sandra

Melody Moore

12-30-2011, 01:28 AM

If I offend some people with what I say I'm sorry but sometimes the truth opens some very raw emotions.

I belong to a distinct and separate group that exists outside that catch all phrase term "transgender".

There will no longer be a co-opting of the TS/IS community by others that think they require rights where rights are not needed.

Those under the transgender umbrella already have rights bestowed upon them due to their male privilege.

Simply revert back to your male selves like you do and your rights are guaranteed.

Those that live full time don't have those rights yet there are those that demand to be included in what little protections we have fought and bled for.

People under the transgender umbrella will not understand what pain from discrimination is until they go full time.

It took me five years of mostly hell to be where I am and I'll be damned if I remain silent while people that have no Idea what the TS/IS community goes through cry and whine because the truth is spoken.

Julia

Thank you Julia, well said!

now in the case of IS. You are NOT either TS NOR TG. You should not fit into either term.
That isn't exactly true Pythos, I consider myself transsexual and yet I too am intersex and the reason I feel
this way is because I spent the greatest majority of my life living as a surgically assigned male. So I seen and
experienced life as a male and faced all the same issues as any other transsexual over my gender identity
which includes having both Gender Identity Disorder and Gender Dysphoria. I also found out I was intersex
after I started my transition and had already been diagnosed with GID.

In addition to this I now have to undergo the same surgical processes as any other transsexual woman to correct
the mistake made so many years ago. It's my choice what labels I apply to myself and I just identify as a female.

Recently there was changes made to the Australian Passports where a pre-op MtF Trans woman can now
have an F on their passport and a FtM trans man can have an M as their gender marker. If you identify as
Intersex, the will use the letter X on your passport. Personally I don't like that idea of the X because I feel
that it will only cause airport & customs officials to scrutinise me even more over my sex/gender identity.
So in this case I will be applying for my F as a transsexual woman, not as an intersex person.

sandra-leigh

12-30-2011, 02:35 AM

Those under the transgender umbrella already have rights bestowed upon them due to their male privilege.

Simply revert back to your male selves like you do and your rights are guaranteed.

Those that live full time don't have those rights yet there are those that demand to be included in what little protections we have fought and bled for.

The phrase that comes to mind when I read this is, "Stuff and Nonsense".

"male privilege" in my life has been a thing applied against me -- as in men asserting their privilege to bully me and make ignorant decisions about me because I did not act like a "real" male. I got ahead in life through competence, not through "male privilege". I stay ahead through work in areas where people care about efforts and results. not about names.

If you are concerned, Julia, about your loss of rights, then why not "simply revert back to your male self"? You've lived with it before, you can live with it again. I, for one, stopped being able to live as a "male".

You write as if no-one other than TS have ever fought and bled. I have fought and bled. I'm probably going to lose my job over my battles, most likely in either March or July 2012.

Julia_in_Pa

12-30-2011, 07:46 AM

I am unable to return to any sort of male mode because biologically I'm not male.

If I attempted to de transition I would have my semi automatic in my mouth within 6 months of de transitioning.

As far as you having your employment threatened, if your not transitioning to full time then you should have been more careful as to not raise suspicion at your employer.

If you are transitioning to full time then I say welcome to the big show because your about to face things you never comprehended before.

These are the facts regardless of whether or not someone becomes offended.

If current law in Canada is similar to the U.S. concerning protections for TS/IS people and your transitioning your in for
one hell of a nasty ride.

If your not then consider yourself lucky and move on.

Julia

The phrase that comes to mind when I read this is, "Stuff and Nonsense".

"male privilege" in my life has been a thing applied against me -- as in men asserting their privilege to bully me and make ignorant decisions about me because I did not act like a "real" male. I got ahead in life through competence, not through "male privilege". I stay ahead through work in areas where people care about efforts and results. not about names.

If you are concerned, Julia, about your loss of rights, then why not "simply revert back to your male self"? You've lived with it before, you can live with it again. I, for one, stopped being able to live as a "male".

You write as if no-one other than TS have ever fought and bled. I have fought and bled. I'm probably going to lose my job over my battles, most likely in either March or July 2012.

Amber99

12-30-2011, 07:51 AM

now in the case of IS. You are NOT either TS NOR TG. You should not fit into either term.
.

IS become TS if they are surgically assigned wrong.

Kaitlyn Michele

12-30-2011, 09:57 AM

If anyone feels slighted by this conversation, they shouldn't. If you feel slighted than you have to look inwards, not out... I felt that lack of self esteem and inability to feel good about myself for my whole life. Ironically, as a transsexual I soothed myself by thinking of myself as a crossdresser or autogynephile...i felt those were "better"....I had learn to feel good about myself, and get over my self loathing about my gender.

Nobody is better than anyone else because of their gender identity or because of how they are living as it relates to gender..

Guys in dresses do not help transsexuals gain acceptance. The gender binary is something that is debated here often. The gender binary includes most people, and it excludes the rest. Being included in that binary has meaningful benefits, not the least of which is finding work. And if you view yourself as simply male or female, the binary is something that feels natural...If any of you folks that work as male would like to put crossdressing as your activity in your resume, or 63% male/37% female on your next job application, by all means do so.

Julia_in_Pa

12-30-2011, 10:42 AM

Kaitlyn,

That's hitting it squarely on the head.
You summed it all up extremely well.

Julia

If anyone feels slighted by this conversation, they shouldn't. If you feel slighted than you have to look inwards, not out... I felt that lack of self esteem and inability to feel good about myself for my whole life. Ironically, as a transsexual I soothed myself by thinking of myself as a crossdresser or autogynephile...i felt those were "better"....I had learn to feel good about myself, and get over my self loathing about my gender.

Nobody is better than anyone else because of their gender identity or because of how they are living as it relates to gender..

Guys in dresses do not help transsexuals gain acceptance. The gender binary is something that is debated here often. The gender binary includes most people, and it excludes the rest. Being included in that binary has meaningful benefits, not the least of which is finding work. And if you view yourself as simply male or female, the binary is something that feels natural...If any of you folks that work as male would like to put crossdressing as your activity in your resume, or 63% male/37% female on your next job application, by all means do so.

Sara Jessica

12-30-2011, 11:01 AM

I think it's reasonable to understand yourself as transsexual but not transition. Based on my experience however, I have some doubt in my mind about it that is hard to erase... All the ts people I know are either transitioned, desperately trying to, or miserable. Despite myndoubt, I don't begrudge anyone that is suffering the life of a woman that lives as a man, and I think if transition doesn't happen, for whatever reason, you have the right and the responsibility to mitigate the gid in any way you can...

Which is precisely how I live my life. And the story still unfolds and hopefully will continue to do so for many years. This is not to say that my life isn't peppered with moments of absolute joy along with miserable despair. Maybe it's my optimistic nature. Maybe it's because I've been self-aware for so many years and am at a level of acceptance which allows for some semblance of equilibrium in trying to navigate this middle path. Or perhaps 2012 has in store for me much more than I could ever imagine when it comes to my gender issues. My point is two-fold. I know many people who are so similar to myself that it is almost scary. I am here to say that it is possible to be TS and still stay on a middle path...and be reasonably content, and even happy, provided there are outlets for expression of the person, the woman in my heart.

Saying there is some kind of tg umbrella does not make it so..So arguing the tg umbrella is somehow necessary to communicate assumes the idea that there is one....I argue that there isn't (or at least it doesn't include transsexuals), and so that it actually hinders communication... If I am job hunting, and a person thinks of me as similar to a drag queen, need is say more?

The TG umbrella exists for better or for worse, even if only in academia for purposes of categorization and discussion.

What I don't get is that there are members of the LGB community who abhor the idea of T being included. The exclusion of others in our community by the transitioned TS crowd smacks of the same exclusionary behavior.

If I offend some people with what I say I'm sorry but sometimes the truth opens some very raw emotions.

I belong to a distinct and separate group that exists outside that catch all phrase term "transgender".

There will no longer be a co-opting of the TS/IS community by others that think they require rights where rights are not needed.

Those under the transgender umbrella already have rights bestowed upon them due to their male privilege.

Simply revert back to your male selves like you do and your rights are guaranteed.

Those that live full time don't have those rights yet there are those that demand to be included in what little protections we have fought and bled for.

People under the transgender umbrella will not understand what pain from discrimination is until they go full time.

It took me five years of mostly hell to be where I am and I'll be damned if I remain silent while people that have no Idea what the TS/IS community goes through cry and whine because the truth is spoken.

Julia

I'm sorry but Julia was right when she said that if you are transgender, but not transsexual or intersexed and you want your rights back put your other gender back on and enjoy them. The challenge regarding the umbrella term is when it comes to spending time on serious legislation and social awareness programs to improve the lives of those who wish to live in the gender they see themselves as whether that be pre-op, post-op, whatever! Is an openly identified Male that enjoys wearing clothes for whatever reason obligated to the same protections as someone with a medical condition that is trying to live their life comfortably in an opposite gender role. If the answer is yes, where do we draw the line? See now why the umbrella term only serves to confuse things?

What makes both of you so bold to think that everyone under the proverbial umbrella is trying to take on the same rights as you?

In an earlier thread this week in the CDers forum, someone was discussing having to defend themselves at work for being outed for wearing a bra under shirt and tie and being threatened with his job for doing so. Everyone was screaming LAWSUIT!!! I dont think so. I think this is on a totally different playing field when compared to someone trying to transition at work or seek new work to start there transition. Or even being outed and loosing your job years after your SRS. This is just a small example of the huge differences.

I don't know the thread you are talking about but I seriously doubt the idea of a lawsuit in this case has anything to do with the TS side of things. Instead, it has more to do with dress code but either way, it could very well bleed into other aspects that do in fact affect how things develop in society for those who are full time transitioning. Hmmm, I think I'm seeing how that umbrella thing works. There can easily be an interrelationship among the groups which are present that goes beyond gender expression and/or identity to socio-political ramifications, whether by way of legal issues or changes in anti-discrimination laws.

I am not anti CDers, or fetishests, or whatever. I have some CD friends and love them to death. Its simple though, some of our challenges are similar, but most of our challenges are totally different.

Gosh, this sounds just like those oft-used expressions, "I have friends who are (insert any ethnic minority)" or "I have many gay frends" and these are often followed by a phrase beginning with the word "but..." Do you realize how utterly divisive this is? And then to say some of our challenges are similar (thus making a case for said umbrella), and most of our challenges are totally different. Like that's a newsflash, again making a case for the continuum which resides underneath that umbrella.

So back to the original theme of this thread. Im sure you can see there are some pretty big differences based on what you have read in all the posts so far. I only have one thing to ask of CDers. Be mindful of the actions you take when you are in public. Because most of the public doesn't know the difference, they associate you and me together as one.

Part of this is nearly verbatim to what I have said in the past, and how I live my life, even though I am not one of the CD'ers you are directing this at. I am 100% mindful of the actions I take when I am in public. I acknowledge that I represent a community and know very well that while I can choose to remove most aspect of my feminine presentation at any time, there are others who are unable to do so. But the Muggles have no idea where we as individuals stand underneath the TG umbrella (darn, there's that concept again) as long as we're perceived as being TG. This goes for the fully transitioned woman to the CD'er who is out and about.

What you do at home, work and play as a CDer does have an effect on me, because it effect how others view the (and i will use the umbrella term here) "Transgender" population. If you let us do our work the result will be a better world for you too!

Could this be any more hypocritical? You have used the umbrella term and/or concept when it suits your point, yet you reject the concept. Which is it?

And could you be any more condescending? Let us do our work and the result will be a better world for you too!?!?

My goodness.:sad:

Pythos

12-30-2011, 11:13 AM

IS become TS if they are surgically assigned wrong.

Sorry, I had forgotten that so many go through that barbaric act. Surgical reassignment and birth should be banned except when the child's life is at stake...not sure how that would be by the way.

Pythos

12-30-2011, 11:26 AM

So what I have learned from this thread is that I contribute to TSs, and to an extent ISs, having a hard time in society. I and people like myself that view the strict following of the gender binary in the manner it is followed, are who justify bigotry outside of the bedroom, or on the job.

It is not the bigots, it is not the homophobes. Nooooo, it is I, who when dressed present an exotic and attractive look. So much so that at the clubs I am photographed quite often. I have embraced an IS individual as my GF, and abhor those that truly do give CDers a bad image.

Wow! I guess I must stop, so that I don't damage the image of those that I SUPPORT their rights of existence. I don't go around and say Transsexuals give CDers a bad image, cause they make the muggles think all CDers eventually transition, and there are muggles out there that think the act of transitioning is wrong.

Also about the thread concerning the individual getting reprimanded at work for wearing a bra. you think this was right? If he was flaunting it then perhaps there is some ground for this sort of thing, but if it was well hidden then that is BS.

When it comes to myself. I just wish I could present however I wished, and not have to worry about losing my job, or my house, or getting beaten. But the reality is, I can. Just because I don't feel the drive or need to change my sex does not mean I think that those that do are lowering CDers, or giving me a bad image.

I would appreciate it if I was given that same respect.

On another note: Male Privilege. This only exists for men that are type A. A for A-hole. In my jobs I have no more "privilege" than a equally capable female. That is the same kind of crap as telling me I have "white privilege". I know of many people that do not fit the white category and they are doing far better than myself with LESS education. So I frankly have not seen me being a beneficiary of having "male privilege" or any other kind of privilege.

Over all, when it comes to seeking rights. What we are seeking are basic human rights. The right to live with no threat to our livelihood no matter how we present ourselves, to not be threatened with losing our jobs for something that for all rights should not matter. I want no more rights than anyone else, I just want those that are denied me and others like myself to be given back.

Julia_in_Pa

12-30-2011, 11:46 AM

@ Sara

The TS/IS communities have to constantly battle public opinion concerning who and what we are.
It is exhausting to have to explain within the legal arena as to the reasoning why we need laws protecting us.

We have to battle those forces that think it's a part time thing or a cross dressing fetish concerning those that have transitioned to full time.

We have little if anything in common with the transgender umbrella once we go into full time status.

It's an everyday battle for the full time TS/IS community as a whole to disassociate themselves from part timer's, cross dresser's and fetishists in order to get laws passed that will stop discrimination in public accommodation, housing, restroom use, employment, etc.

Are you full time? Have you ever gone on a job interview as YOU? Have you attempted to rent an apartment as YOU?
If you are not full time you have absolutely no idea what these challenges are for us that are full time.

Like I've said before, most of the transgender umbrella gets to revert back to their male presentation in order to live another day, we do not.

I cannot care what those that feel slighted think because they are not in our shoes.

you can be offended all you want but the fact remains that if you are not full time you will not understand fully this battle we wage.

Julia

JulieK1980

12-30-2011, 11:49 AM

It's interesting how the post-op transexual comes completely full circle. A Crossdresser, (and many transexuals start off here before they realize who they are) often hides in the closet as a safety net, and lives in secrecy and often bashes gays and won't hesitate to bash another crossdresser so they can be seen as a "man". A post-op transexual hides behind their surgically altered body and then rejects crossdressers, and calls them perverts, and tries to blend in with women. It's ironic though, that society as a whole would call them the same thing. The disdain shown by some here is pathetic, and no matter how much you call it truth, it's nothing more than bigotry and hate.

The umbrella term isn't going anywhere whether it's rejected by the community or not. It's there for psychiatric reasons. We all have a "disorder" (granted I dislike the term) but that's what the psychiatric community calls it. It's there as an umbrella of all people that don't fit that wonderful binary gender system our society embraces. (It's worth noting most societies in history recognized a third gender) So whether you embrace it, reject it, accept it, doesn't really matter. Society labels us, we don't.

On a final note, before I leave this thread in distaste. I don't know what part of the transition turns you into a nasty person, but I'm thankful I don't have to go through it (at least not yet). I have no desire to become a bitter hateful person. So feel special all you want, and try to remember. You are NOT special, and a big chunk of society will happily kill you for being a "pervert" whether you have a penis or not.

Edit: I shouldn't generalize. It isn't "ALL" transexuals.

arbon

12-30-2011, 11:56 AM

It's an everyday battle for the full time TS/IS community as a whole to disassociate themselves from part timer's, cross dresser's and fetishists in order to get laws passed that will stop discrimination in public accommodation, housing, restroom use, employment, etc.

If it is so important to disassociate from them why you do you associate with them on a site call crossdressers.com?

Rianna Humble

12-30-2011, 12:20 PM

This thread started going off track when it descended into a fight about whether TG was an umbrella and if so who should have the right to shelter under that umbrella.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if we have scared off JenniferLuvsPunk and never see her again.

DeeInGeorgia

12-30-2011, 12:49 PM

I do not think I have ever seen so much hipocracy as I have read here. Starting off with some women of transsexual history that berate CDers of fetish or other reasons. You may have a female gender identity, but your gender expression is so extremely masculine competative. There is not one ounce of female nurturing gender expression in uour soul. And you weep and complain about fem radicals (who are masculine gender expression also) who exclude you. All they are doing to you is what you are doin to CDers. The problem of bogotry of this sort is the bigot is so blinded by their bigotry they do not and will not understand their bigotry.

Gender identity is not the same as gender expression. I have known many women of transsexual history that were able to live for years hiding their opposite gender identity necause they did not have much opposite gender expression. Many gay men have suffered over the years because of their opposite gender expression. Some crossdressers have spent years being bullied, including today by women of transsexual history, because of their innate opppsite gender expression. A pox on all who are not nurturing of everyone who is or was trans, trans for whatever reason.

Pink Person

12-30-2011, 12:56 PM

ameliabee

12-30-2011, 01:19 PM

What a shame that there is so much confusion, so much unnecessary bickering about this subject.
Calling another member stupid, and saying “it’s laughable that you made this stupid accusation”
Or using phrases like “pissed off” is sad and not necessary.

Are not the majority of us here just getting on with life and are happy to be us without a label?

SUZY

I agree with Suzy about something. O.o

This is weird.

The TG umbrella exists for better or for worse, even if only in academia for purposes of categorization and discussion.

What I don't get is that there are members of the LGB community who abhor the idea of T being included. The exclusion of others in our community by the transitioned TS crowd smacks of the same exclusionary behavior.

What I've observed, dealing with my local college-age queer population, is that it's not the transvestic fetishists co-opting transsexualism and our medical model, it's a bunch of feminine gays, lesbians, and fruit flies who think that being transgendered is trendy, never mind that none of them will ever transition. The trans* group is essentially a spinoff from the lesbian community - it's dominated by female assigned at birth genderqueers, with the occasional legit FtM. I'm the only MtF who has ever shown up in the history of that organization, and I'm disinclined to ever return. It seems as though 'T' is only accepted if one was FAB - femme-phobia runs rampant among gays, and transmisogyny is the order of the day among the rest of the queers.

This thread started going off track when it descended into a fight about whether TG was an umbrella and if so who should have the right to shelter under that umbrella.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if we have scared off JenniferLuvsPunk and never see her again.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that JenniferLuvsPink probably shouldn't have made this thread, given that zie could have found an answer to zir question with either google or a search through the archives on this site.

If I was going to troll a bunch of elderly and middle-aged transsexual women, this is precisely the sort of topic I would bring up. That, or ".xx caliber for self-defense?"

I do not think I have ever seen so much hipocracy as I have read here. Starting off with some women of transsexual history that berate CDers of fetish or other reasons. You may have a female gender identity, but your gender expression is so extremely masculine competative. There is not one ounce of female nurturing gender expression in uour soul. And you weep and complain about fem radicals (who are masculine gender expression also) who exclude you. All they are doing to you is what you are doin to CDers. The problem of bogotry of this sort is the bigot is so blinded by their bigotry they do not and will not understand their bigotry.

Gender essentialism much, hon'?

Transgender is an adjective that describes a group of people who are related to each other in
typical and subtypical ways. You can play the name game any way you want, but our general and specific relationships are determined by similar biological imperatives that can't be differentiated just because we talk about them in different ways.

Everyone is so perfectly special, we think. We all hate it when someone tries to invade our territory or usurp our identities, don't we? Some of us can't stand some of our family members or other people who are classed with us in ways that can't be denied. Oh well, too bad, so sad to say.

Transgender people (including crossdressers, transsexuals, and others) are related by blood not marriage or social convention. We can't divorce ourselves from each other by shining a light on our subordinate differences because our dominant similarities shine brighter. Transgender is the family name for all of us in the court of human nature. You can try to disown it in a lower court, but your petition will be overruled by a higher one.

If I liked dogma, I'd go to church.

Sara Jessica

12-30-2011, 01:20 PM

A post-op transexual hides behind their surgically altered body and then rejects crossdressers, and calls them perverts, and tries to blend in with women. It's ironic though, that society as a whole would call them the same thing. The disdain shown by some here is pathetic, and no matter how much you call it truth, it's nothing more than bigotry and hate.

Short of achieving as close to perfect stealth as possible, the fact remains that the post-op woman can be mis-labeled by others regardless of whether or not the weekend-CD'er is active in being out in society. Making this obvious statement brings me no joy, it is what it is, and I'd personally expect the exact same thing personally short of miraculous results of HRT & FFS. So while I do understand the exasperation that is likely to result when the fully transitioned and integrated woman finds herself having to "explain" the nature of her TG being, it seems counter-productive to outright reject those others who at least share something in common that led everyone to be placed under the same umbrella term, transgendered.

The umbrella term isn't going anywhere whether it's rejected by the community or not. It's there for psychiatric reasons. We all have a "disorder" (granted I dislike the term) but that's what the psychiatric community calls it. It's there as an umbrella of all people that don't fit that wonderful binary gender system our society embraces. (It's worth noting most societies in history recognized a third gender) So whether you embrace it, reject it, accept it, doesn't really matter. Society labels us, we don't.

This is true although there is a movement by some outspoken members on the TS side of the fence to change this fact.

Really, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other what academia does with this term, and whether the above referenced TS contingent is successful. What matters to me is the disrespect that I see within these pages. This is part of my world, a place where I go for solace, advice (both given & received) and even perhaps a dash of vanity. I participate with one foot on the CD side of the fence and another on the TS side because this is where I am, on a middle path. Bottom line, my head & heart clearly convey to me that I am TS. Perhaps this is why the whole umbrella and continuum concepts make so much sense to me because both help me understand my place in the world. But to see such outright rejection and holier-than-thou (oh, I'm sorry, "more-trans-than-thou") attitudes that can be so pervasive, those need to be called out.

So what I have learned from this thread is that I contribute to TSs, and to an extent ISs, having a hard time in society. I and people like myself that view the strict following of the gender binary in the manner it is followed, are who justify bigotry outside of the bedroom, or on the job.

Apparently part of the premise is that anyone who is not full-time contributes to the woes of those who are. I had no idea we had so much sway.

When it comes to myself. I just wish I could present however I wished, and not have to worry about losing my job, or my house, or getting beaten. But the reality is, I can. Just because I don't feel the drive or need to change my sex does not mean I think that those that do are lowering CDers, or giving me a bad image.

I would appreciate it if I was given that same respect.

For any of us who are not full time but venture outside of the safe confines of our homes, these are legitimate concerns which are not likely to be concerns of those who do not step out (and therefore demonstrates that not everyone under said umbrella is looking to co-op rights that are not necessary). But I guess it was said before, you and I need to step aside and let the big girls do all the heavy lifting and as a result, we will eventually reap the benefits.

On another note: Male Privilege. This only exists for men that are type A. A for A-hole. In my jobs I have no more "privilege" than a equally capable female. That is the same kind of crap as telling me I have "white privilege". I know of many people that do not fit the white category and they are doing far better than myself with LESS education. So I frankly have not seen me being a beneficiary of having "male privilege" or any other kind of privilege.

I acknowledge our ability to retreat towards "male privilege" as being a perception that is in fact reality in many circles. Just being able to "take off the girl" and revert back into a world of gender binary makes this so. However, just because many of us can do this doesn't mean we either embrace it or take advantage of it. As I said before, it is what it is and I don't see this as something that should be used against us, like we are of a lesser trans-species by not being full-time.

Over all, when it comes to seeking rights. What we are seeking are basic human rights. The right to live with no threat to our livelihood no matter how we present ourselves, to not be threatened with losing our jobs for something that for all rights should not matter. I want no more rights than anyone else, I just want those that are denied me and others like myself to be given back.

Such a very fair statement, Pythos.

@ Sara

The TS/IS communities have to constantly battle public opinion concerning who and what we are.
It is exhausting to have to explain within the legal arena as to the reasoning why we need laws protecting us.

And perhaps someday this battle will no longer need to be fought.

We have to battle those forces that think it's a part time thing or a cross dressing fetish concerning those that have transitioned to full time.

We have little if anything in common with the transgender umbrella once we go into full time status.

It's an everyday battle for the full time TS/IS community as a whole to disassociate themselves from part timer's, cross dresser's and fetishists in order to get laws passed that will stop discrimination in public accommodation, housing, restroom use, employment, etc.

Ya know, if this is such a pervasive hurdle to be overcome, what's so hard about making the distinction you see necessary and then moving on? It's all part of educating the Muggles about our community. Disassociating yourself from the entirety of the community will never change that fact.

Are you full time? Have you ever gone on a job interview as YOU? Have you attempted to rent an apartment as YOU?
If you are not full time you have absolutely no idea what these challenges are for us that are full time.

No, no, and no.

But please, give other human beings a little credit as to the capacity to understand a rather simple concept. I get it. I don't have to be full time to fully comprehend the challenges faced by those who are. Really, it isn't rocket science. And maybe my understanding of the big picture is a major reason I choose not to go down that path.

Like I've said before, most of the transgender umbrella gets to revert back to their male presentation in order to live another day, we do not.

And?

So what.

Like I said above, this ability doesn't mean it's embraced and speaking for myself, it certainly doesn't impact my ability to empathize.

I cannot care what those that feel slighted think because they are not in our shoes.

you can be offended all you want but the fact remains that if you are not full time you will not understand fully this battle we wage.

Julia, you are one of the most interesting people I have encountered here in that you present as having a complete lack of empathy which tells me you cannot comprehend this capacity being able to exist in others. You say you don't care and I totally believe you. I am not here to change your mind but I hope I offer an alternate POV to those who might be inclined to line up behind your myopic and in my opinion, misguided, take on this whole subject.

I have dear friends on the CD end of the spectrum. I have dear friends who are fully transitioned. I have seen death as a result of GID from way too close of a vantage point. I have also seen more joy that comes from our shared experiences which makes shedding despair in favor of happiness so worthwhile. Like I said before, the knowledge I have gained by being included on the TS side of things has contributed to my empathy which impacts how I conduct myself when I am fortunate to be out & about as my true self. Therefore, you can continue your rants about separation and I will continue to be true to everyone within our community who shows respect not only for natal females but also to those of us who are making their way in this wonderful world full-time.

LeaP

12-30-2011, 01:25 PM

Transgender is an adjective that describes a group of people who are related to each other in
typical and subtypical ways. You can play the name game any way you want, but our general and specific relationships are determined by similar biological imperatives that can't be differentiated just because we talk about them in different ways.

Everyone is so perfectly special, we think. We all hate it when someone tries to invade our territory or usurp our identities, don't we? Some of us can't stand some of our family members or other people who are classed with us in ways that can't be denied. Oh well, too bad, so sad to say.

Transgender people (including crossdressers, transsexuals, and others) are related by blood not marriage or social convention. We can't divorce ourselves from each other by shining a light on our subordinate differences because our dominant similarities shine brighter. Transgender is the family name for all of us in the court of human nature. You can try to disown it in a lower court, but your petition will be overruled by a higher one.

I only partially agree. The "biological imperatives" don't have anything like consensus and, in any event, only seem to apply when gender is at issue (whether or not acknowledged or known). There are varieties of behavior that have no source in biological considerations.

On the higher court comment, I think people, by and large, can distinguish between, say, a transsexual and someone who dresses up for the local sex club event, just as they recognize distinctions in the gay community. The haters, rednecks, and bashers aren't going away, but I truly don't believe that constitutes most of the population.

Lea

Rianna Humble

12-30-2011, 02:49 PM

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that JenniferLuvsPink really had no business making this thread, given that zie could have found an answer to zir question with either google or a search through the archives on this site.

Fortunately, until you become the administrator, any member has the right to start a thread like this whether or not you approve

Julia_in_Pa

12-30-2011, 02:52 PM

In case you haven't been paying attention Arbon this thread exists in the TS area.

I also receive an incredible amount of comic relief from the cross dresser threads.

The fixation on women's panties and bra's is quite hilarious.

It's like a train wreck, you can't stop looking. LOL!!

Now move on.

Julia

If it is so important to disassociate from them why you do you associate with them on a site call crossdressers.com?

Kaitlyn Michele

12-30-2011, 03:37 PM

Jody get off your high horse ... I'm not distancing myself from anyone..you accuse others of bigotry and hate?...saying I am "hiding behind my surgically altered body" is mean spirited and totally false. I do not hide...you do! It shows your disdain for transsexuals to use those words... I do not distance myself from anyone..I am not even remotely hypocritical in any way...I am deeply involved in the transsexual and transgendered community.... I get up in front of hundreds of people as a transsexual and I explain to them who I am to ovations...

I tell people that all transgendered people need support, that all tg people deserve good treatment, safety and the ability to feel good about themselves..I tell people how there is every type of gender presentation..

Kathy Smith

12-30-2011, 05:50 PM

Just a flying visit here, ladies,
Stir-Stir...
Has anyone given a thought to the etymology here?

"trans" is a Latin noun or prefix, meaning "across", "beyond" or "on the opposite side".

"gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.

"sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.

"vestitus" is a latin word for "dressed".

That leaves the translation of "trans-gender" and "trans-sexual" a bit clearer. :-)
The former implies that the person PRESENTS as a member of the opposite gender in society. The latter implies that the person HAS certain characteristics of the opposite sex to which they were born.

If we now look at these definitions then ANYONE who PRESENTS as a member of the opposite gender COULD be referred to as "Transgender". It doesn't matter if that person is "just" a crossdresser. There is no requirement for a transgender person to be transsexual according to this definition. A "transsexual" person may have physical, emotional and/or mental characteristics of the opposite sex, but need not PRESENT as having those characteristics. Once again, there is no requirement for a transsexual person to be transgendered, even though most of them are.

From the above, isn't it justified to say that referring to a transsexual person as transgendered is NOT an insult? It merely states that the person in question is PRESENTING as a person of the opposite gender to their birth. The two terms are different.

The problem is that we are short of precise nouns to describe those who have already:
a) completed transition from one sex to the other (we can't kid ourselves, there is no such thing as 100% sex change. Even a surgeons knife doesn't remove our early upbringing and memories which stay with us all our lives.)
b) someone who dresses in clothes of the opposite sex, but not for sexual gratification. The word "transvestite" has now become too sexually-charged to be used for this group, which is a pity because it is otherwise fairly accurate. "cross-dresser" is probably as close as we can get and is a reasonable translation from the latin.

Note that a cross-dresser or transvestite are not, by definition, transsexual but may be classified as transgendered. All transgendered people MUST be transvestites, cross-dressers and/or transsexual in order to present as their chosen gender.

OK. I'll put my flac jacket on and dive down into the bunker again. :-)

Bree-asaurus

12-30-2011, 07:01 PM

Aprilrain

12-30-2011, 07:12 PM

there are 8 billion people on the planet if one doesn't like you move on

Pink Person

12-30-2011, 07:45 PM

One of the missing links between crossdressers and transsexuals (and any other kind of transgender person) is that they are not cisgender. I raise this negative definition of transgender people because some of you will absurdly deny any positive link between members of different transgender groups. This common bond between transgender people is based on a truism, not dogma. Church mice who think that dogma drives any type of gender identification and classification should return to their dark holes for a second opinion. If it was all about dogma, then transgender populations wouldn't exist because there is no such thing as a transgender dogma that would support their propagation.

The gender distinctions that people make about themselves are important. You can prove it by challenging anyone's self-identification and observing the reaction it provokes. However, some differences don't make us different, and some similarities don't make us the same. We have to weigh our similarities and differences, objectively and subjectively, to reach a balanced conclusion. You might tip the transgender scale heavily or lightly, in one direction or the other, but none of us slides off of it. We all register somewhere on the transgender scale. We don't register on the cisgender scale. We don't register on the cisgender scale because the characteristics that identify transgender people don't have the same weight as the characteristics that identify cisgender ones. This is the order of distinct difference that should matter most to us. We are not cisgender. Once you have recognized this fact then it will be easier for you to accept the true scale of your relationships with other people. Perhaps it will make you more generous to the other queers you might now be prone to bashing.

Pythos

12-30-2011, 10:07 PM

A crossdresser doesn't have to worry about how the laws affect them or hold them back from being who they are. They dont have to worry about being arrested for using a public restroom. They don't have to worry about being allowed to get married or adopt a child. They don't have to worry about losing their job or finding a new one because they are different. They don't have to worry about where all the money is going to come from to allow for their transition to be who they really are.

Um, I would like to know what world you live in. I cannot preset as I prefer if I want to get a house, I cannot use a restrroom in the general public if in my preferred mode. I was unaware that I could go into an adoption clinic skirted and be able to get on the list to be able to adopt. I don't have to worry about my job? Really? Funny I have heard of CDs losing thier jobs for being sited OFF THE JOB. The last point is the only truism of your whole post.

IT IS BASIC human rights we strive for. ALL OF US. That's it, that's all.

SandraAbsent

12-30-2011, 10:18 PM

What makes both of you so bold to think that everyone under the proverbial umbrella is trying to take on the same rights as you?

I can only speak for myself, but I don't recall saying anything about everyone under the umbrella trying to take the same right as me. To deny that some are would be foolish, and often times I see these rights being fought for under circumstances that make this whole thing look like a game. It simply makes me angry.

I don't know the thread you are talking about but I seriously doubt the idea of a lawsuit in this case has anything to do with the TS side of things. Instead, it has more to do with dress code but either way, it could very well bleed into other aspects that do in fact affect how things develop in society for those who are full time transitioning. Hmmm, I think I'm seeing how that umbrella thing works. There can easily be an interrelationship among the groups which are present that goes beyond gender expression and/or identity to socio-political ramifications, whether by way of legal issues or changes in anti-discrimination laws.

If you are flying the Transgender Flag protesting that you have the right to under-dress and not be called into question about it than it is a TS issue. It also happens to be a perfect example of seeking rights and protections being fought for under circumstances that make this entire thing look like a game.

Gosh, this sounds just like those oft-used expressions, "I have friends who are (insert any ethnic minority)" or "I have many gay frends" and these are often followed by a phrase beginning with the word "but..." Do you realize how utterly divisive this is? And then to say some of our challenges are similar (thus making a case for said umbrella), and most of our challenges are totally different. Like that's a newsflash, again making a case for the continuum which resides underneath that umbrella.

Did I follow my statement with the word "but..."? I have many ethnic minority, friends and I love them. I have many gay friends and I love them. I have many CDer friends and I love them. Someone posted earlier that crossdressers seek acceptance, I support them 100% in this. I have this in common but by no means was I making a case for the umbrella with this commonality. Their is a huge difference between acceptance and legal rights. So am I sounding divisive? Yes but not without cause and certainly without the bigotry you implied.

Part of this is nearly verbatim to what I have said in the past, and how I live my life, even though I am not one of the CD'ers you are directing this at. I am 100% mindful of the actions I take when I am in public. I acknowledge that I represent a community and know very well that while I can choose to remove most aspect of my feminine presentation at any time, there are others who are unable to do so. But the Muggles have no idea where we as individuals stand underneath the TG umbrella (darn, there's that concept again) as long as we're perceived as being TG. This goes for the fully transitioned woman to the CD'er who is out and about.

Thank you, but not all are mindfull. A quick read through these forums will reveal that at times. Unfortunately and often these are the examples that are used to argue the legal matters that transsexuals face. It simply makes me angry.

What you do at home, work and play as a CDer does have an effect on me, because it effect how others view the (and i will use the umbrella term here) "Transgender" population. If you let us do our work the result will be a better world for you too!

Could this be any more hypocritical? You have used the umbrella term and/or concept when it suits your point, yet you reject the concept. Which is it?

And could you be any more condescending? Let us do our work and the result will be a better world for you too!?!?

My goodness.

I never used it when it suited my point. I may have used it descriptively, but as a whole I reject the concept. I believe 100% that the rights and acceptance that crossdressers seek are, although similar in nature, a separate issue. Just like I believe that the differences between intersexed and transexuals are night and day to a crossdresser.

In terms of being condescending. If you view it that way, I guess no I could not be more condescending. Those of us on the front line of the fight stand to gain the biggest freedoms in victory. The overall outcome is greater understanding for everyone, including those who choose to only marginally be engaged. I dont see that as condescending, I see it as the truth.

I dont normally rip apart a response like this, but I really felt under attack with the manor that you dissected my comments and felt the need to clarify my position. For the record, tread lightly the next time you want to imply that someone that you know nothing about is bigoted. Simple matter of fact is that there is a huge difference between crossdressers and those of us that put out gender on trial ever moment of every day. There is a huge difference in motivations, need for acceptance, and need for legal protections.

JulieK1980

12-30-2011, 10:34 PM

I cannot use a restrroom in the general public if in my preferred mode.

Actually a few pages back some here said you should NOT be able to use the restroom of your preferred mode, because if you aren't a transitioning transexual, you are a pervert that masturbates to panties. But they say I'M the one full of myself.:brolleyes:

Kaitlyn Michele

12-30-2011, 10:43 PM

Jody, you are a trip... since we don't know you, and we only know you by what you write, what you write simply has no meaning..
what a silly argument you make in an internet forum.. you try to reduce us all, but i am happy to be known by what i write here, i guess you are not..

I agree, I wish etymology could help, we could just go to the history of words..and the topic is interesting to many people, but day to day? not so much..

Pinky person babycakes apple fruit bat, i dig your crazy vibe.. mice and pudding and pumpkin pie..whatever..

for those focusing on the inability of srs and surgical procedures to make us "fully" female, you are demonstrating the problem, your attitude is killing us, you are proving the point by demonstrating how little you know about transsexuality and transsexuals lives..

yes the medical technology is terrific, but its also terrifically expensive...
and lots of transsexuals live in deep sadness at how male they appear, or live in courageous defiance of how people look at them..
the surgeries have a huge positive impact on our quality of life, but the surgeries and hormones have NOTHING to do with being ts!!!
and comments that it does demonstrate the superficiality you ascribe to your own behavior, and highlights just how different we are..

In the end, i am stuck with the label of tg.....
the "world" as it is looks at the word transgendered and lumps in every type of gender nonconformity, and doesnt really spend much time worrying about it.. and that is a problem for me to overcome...

Sara, i agree that there is joy in sharing a broader community of people...LGB and T, CD/IS/TS/TG...it is all good and we are all friends..but that doesnt help me get a job..

Bree-asaurus

12-30-2011, 10:52 PM

Um, I would like to know what world you live in. I cannot preset as I prefer if I want to get a house, I cannot use a restrroom in the general public if in my preferred mode. I was unaware that I could go into an adoption clinic skirted and be able to get on the list to be able to adopt. I don't have to worry about my job? Really? Funny I have heard of CDs losing thier jobs for being sited OFF THE JOB. The last point is the only truism of your whole post.

IT IS BASIC human rights we strive for. ALL OF US. That's it, that's all.

Pythos, are you a man? Because from the posts I've read of yours, you seem to be somewhere in between male and female I thought. In that case, you are dressing as you identify and don't identify as a MAN, therefor you're not simply a crossdresser. By crossdresser mean MEN who wear WOMEN's cloths. Not people who identify between genders or the opposite gender.

EDIT: Trying to go back and read some of your posts and maybe I'm wrong... so you do identify entirely as a man and you just like to wear girls cloths? Then I'm so sorry it's so hard for you to put on a pair of pants to go to the adoption agency... Transexuals can't constantly go back and fourth pretending to be their birth gender to get by after transition. Sure it would be great if people didn't judge you based on the cloths you wear, but that struggle for you, my dear, is nothing compared to being transexual. You can easily get by through your entire life and have all the rights I mentioned and still be able to express yourself enough to keep yourself from suicide.

Actually a few pages back some here said you should NOT be able to use the restroom of your preferred mode, because if you aren't a transitioning transexual, you are a pervert that masturbates to panties. But they say I'M the one full of myself.:brolleyes:

I'm sorry, but if you're a crossdressing male then you use the men's restroom. If you're against that then you need to fight for the desegregation of restrooms.

JulieK1980

12-31-2011, 12:27 AM

I'm sorry, but if you're a crossdressing male then you use the men's restroom. If you're against that then you need to fight for the desegregation of restrooms.

Rather off the topic, but yes I think it's pointless to segregate them. A stall is a stall is a stall, and a sicko is going to go in to a bathroom to assault a woman dressed as a man. Keeping a crossdresser out of them won't keep the predators out of them. IMO.

Also note, I'm not a crossdresser. (I don't think.) Somewhere between as I said before.

Now, personal insults aside, (I assure you I don't care in the least for those of you flinging them out there) Is it really surprising that you get a little lash back when everyone gets clumped into the fetish cd category and mocked by some here if they aren't transitioning? I mean really. Use common sense, if you mock people, people are going to reply in kind.

A serious question: Do you all really believe that it's so black and white? Do you really believe, as Julia so eloquently put it, that all those that aren't in transition are just doing it to masturbate into panties? I really have trouble believing that you people would hold those views. I've seen you, Bree make some extremely intelligent comments on threads here, and I truly have trouble believing that you (and your just an example here) would buy into that.

My "high horse" is just an equal and opposite reaction to some of the extremely insulting statements in this thread. I'm not strictly a crossdresser no, but it hits hard and it hurts. Especially when I see those that I respected hopping right on board with it.

Bree-asaurus

12-31-2011, 12:53 AM

Rather off the topic, but yes I think it's pointless to segregate them. A stall is a stall is a stall, and a sicko is going to go in to a bathroom to assault a woman dressed as a man. Keeping a crossdresser out of them won't keep the predators out of them. IMO.

Also note, I'm not a crossdresser. (I don't think.) Somewhere between as I said before.

Now, personal insults aside, (I assure you I don't care in the least for those of you flinging them out there) Is it really surprising that you get a little lash back when everyone gets clumped into the fetish cd category and mocked by some here if they aren't transitioning? I mean really. Use common sense, if you mock people, people are going to reply in kind.

A serious question: Do you all really believe that it's so black and white? Do you really believe, as Julia so eloquently put it, that all those that aren't in transition are just doing it to masturbate into panties? I really have trouble believing that you people would hold those views. I've seen you, Bree make some extremely intelligent comments on threads here, and I truly have trouble believing that you (and your just an example here) would buy into that.

My "high horse" is just an equal and opposite reaction to some of the extremely insulting statements in this thread. I'm not strictly a crossdresser no, but it hits hard and it hurts. Especially when I see those that I respected hopping right on board with it.

Keeping crossdressers or transexuals out of certain bathrooms doesn't do anything. I don't see a need to have separate bathrooms. But we're kinda stuck with mens/womens bathrooms right now, and getting transexuals the right to use the bathroom of their gender is far more likely if we're not also fighting for crossdressing men to use women's bathrooms. If crossdressers can use the bathroom they please, then where do you draw the line? Why let some men use the women's bathroom and not other men? And frankly, if a crossdressing male identifies as a MAN, what's the problem with using the MENS room? And no I don't think all crossdressers are jerking it into panties in front of a mirror... but a lot of people do... even people that decide our rights.

I do think that as long as we have separate bathrooms for men and women, that people should use the bathroom of the gender that they identify as... the gender that's on your driver's license.

No it's not black and white at all... but that's what we have to deal with from the cisgendered world. To make any headway, we still have to use the broken system.

We can't make everything perfect overnight, so we have to do what we can. And frankly, I think we need to fight for the rights of the people that are suffering the most.

Pythos

12-31-2011, 03:44 AM

Actually Bree. My mind works as both male and female according all the brain tests (both silly and legitimate). My body is male, but my build is slight (though compared to my Girl Friend, I still have large hands and feet....booo. LOL.) So my preferred style is essentially the opposite of what some call "butch", and always of a Goth, industrial look.

That is something my girlfriend loves about me is I am a fine mix of the two, though lean more toward the male.

That being said. Why is it we cannot not fight for just basic rights. Not specific rights, but rights for all. No one should have their threatened for something that really does not control their performance.

As far as your "sorry you can't put on a pair of pants to go into an adoption agency" That was a bit silly. First of why should I have to. Once again, why should it matter what I wear? As long as it is decent and clean. That should be it.

Sophiewouldbenice

12-31-2011, 06:00 AM

Its is really a pitty, that some seem not get support of the crossdresser community - I mean, if we are verbaly reduced to perverts I wonder what will happen. Look back into USA, if I am not wrong, there have been transgender helping groups which were only for heterosexuals, cause of fear and antipathy to gay people. Probably the huge spectra of crossdressers reaches from some pervert to some almost transsexuals - and for me I know the amount of pervert in me and I don't know you what if we would compare I would not be (much) more pervert than transsexuals - I assume everyone possesses fantasies, which can be named pervert in some sense and if there is some self attraction by my female illusion or by fantasizing about beeing (forced or willingly) dressed up you should be careful to name me and others perverts.

I guess, but don't know, that in this world are much more crossdressers than transsexuals, if for good or not does not matter. ButI would be surprised if our support is not of interest. If even a crossdresser does not sympathize with a transsexual, well than who does?

It is strange sometimes I really hoped that my desire of dressing comes not from any sexual side but from feeling and behaving like a woman - which is for sure to 80% not the case - probably also a silly fantasy, even pervert? I started to admire or deeply respect transsexuals for what the are and how they overcome there problems and there fight - but by reading here several post I really have to question my attitude.

What do you thing of those wo start as crossdresser and become transsexual later?

And as I wrote 2 pages before, do you really think that any success for crossdressers whould be nothing for you, and even if it is melting the social role boundaries... can't believe, that this would be nothing to you.

(you refers here to all high horse transsexuals, I hope and assume this does not count for all and maybe I got some comments wrong here)

A small point for the easy thing about toilets (I don't care, but anyway): Going dressed up to a mens room causes strange reactions of everyone, even if they are standing and doing there business, also you can easily get your nice dress or skirt dirty in the cabin, thanks to reduced hygiene standards. Going to a womens room causes less distraction, everyone is separated anyway and reapplying your makeup bothers less. But yeah, I am a strong male individual and can therefore deal with it.

It is also a nice comment, that I must not go out to work in "female" closes, because I would risk my job and all I read here is, this is perfectly fine, cause I can go to my male self and can happily work - are you kidding? This should be equal rights?

Can it be, that some defend the traditional gender role, maybe cause of there proud to manage in a huge attemped and under much pain to switch the gender? I assume such a great success in self fulfilment
can make you hard (?) and attacking people quite lightly even if they are not going to do you any harm - I hope for you, you can overcome this bad attitude which contradicts all you have achieved.

@ Tania_aCrossdresser, we wrote the comments at the same time, probably yours would have been enough. :) - anyway a strange name for a sentence like I am not a crossdresser :D (just kidding)

Amber99

12-31-2011, 08:17 AM

That being said. Why is it we cannot not fight for just basic rights. Not specific rights, but rights for all. No one should have their threatened for something that really does not control their performance.

If we ask for everything then we will get nothing. It's better to try for something achievable, especially when transsexual girls are still offing themselves at such alarming rates.

Kaitlyn Michele

12-31-2011, 09:18 AM

When you start reducing things to simplistic "we are all equal, rights for all " type statements, you are introducing a strawman, and reducing the discussion to the absurd.....who can be against "rights" for "all"..
Does a murderer have the "right" to kill his victim...what is a "right"?, who decides what is a right? what if my "rights" go against your "rights"..its childish..
btw
Why can't a transsexual have the "right" to be NOT transgendered? get it? so pls stop making that meaningless statement..

It's also a strawman to bring up your own inability to transition as an example.. If you want to transition and can't, you are likely a transsexual. It's a unique set of problems you have...If you feel comfortable with the term transgendered, its totally for you to say. You live as a male, and dress as a female, that's pretty transgendered to me.. NOT transitioning does not exclude you in any way.. I go to a huge support group and its 20% transition/80% not transition out of the ts group..and after years of trial and error, the cd's disappeared and became part of their own group...the group naturally split into ts and tg... and there is quite a bit of jealousy and resentment similar to what ts women go through here...

does transition make us hard? Yes. Transition is the end of all the bs in your life.. and bs is soft, warm and comfortable despite the odor...it sucks when it goes away.

Yes there have been some insults lobbed in...but frankly those of you that are speaking totally from a crossdressing point of view are being very bigoted towards the fetish population...and you accuse ts people of hypocrisy....
There are tons of fetishists, surely nice people that get off in all kinds of ways... The idea that Julia expressed was sound (even if julia expressed it in an insulting way to some)...the idea was that transsexuals have nothing in common with that group of people...that's it... and hopefully you will all get this (apologies is you don't and feel insulted) but we don't wear clothes for ANY OTHER reason than to put them on our body, and when we wear our clothes, we go to work in them, we see our kids in them, and we apply for jobs in them...we usually dress in a LESS feminine manner than crossdressers, and to be included in a group that wears clothes for sexual gratification or to idealize the feminine form is something i deal with face to face with people.....
and it doesnt help you or me in any way...it has nothing to do with you..

If the biggest problem you have is the "right" to choose your toilet place, then i'm sorry but i can't get all up in arms over it... for the record, i am indifferent...genetic women don't want guys in the bathroom..its not about a stall is a stall...gg's fart, shit, piss, apply makeup, and engage in feminine hygiene, i've never met a woman who wants a guy in the room ...its a guy thing to say a stall is a stall, its not a girl thing...and guess what.. ALL people have RIGHTS....so gg's must have the right to kick you out of their bathroom..
As a non gg, i know i would risk a problem if i did not appear gg...but it would be the absolute least important problem on my list...

and the biggest strawman of all is that a transsexual saying I AM NOT INCLUDED AS TRANSGENDER DOES NOT MEAN I DONT FULLY SUPPORT TRANSGENDERED PEOPLE... I am not gay, and i support gay rights... its like a mental block or something...

Sophie I read your point about defending the traditional gender role and I hear you.. i think there is some of that in my comments...i have chosen to blend into the binary gendered world..i like it there... i found my place...which is exactly why i don't like being called transgendered... i am not part of a group that has not fount a place there... and like i said above, i totally and completely support your rights to live outside the binary gendered world, when i give my speeches i talk about the fact that there is a large group of people of all kinds of mixed feelings about their gender, and i focus mostly on medical issues and your right to go get HRT even if you don't transition, and the safety issues of going out and avoiding violence.....

Pink Person

12-31-2011, 09:45 AM

Saying that a person is transgender is like saying that a person is cisgender, it puts them in a general category but doesn't say anything particular about them. Is a cisgender person a man or a woman? Yes. Is a transgender person a crossdresser, a transsexual, or something in between them? Yes. We need to stop thinking that the term transgender says anything particular about anyone because it doesn't. If you want other people to know the particular truth about you then you will have to communicate it with some extra words. Use pantomime and sign language, if there are no words to express the real you. Just don't think that transgender does it alone. It's like saying that a person is a human being. It distinguishes us from nonhumans but not in a very meaningful way. It lumps all the disgraceful human beings with the good ones, and no one wants that to happen.

P.S. Kaitlyn, you are sweet to make allowances for my petty offenses. I appreciate it, even if I sometimes deserve a small rebuke. I think you gave me one earlier, but can't be sure. Your slyness made me chuckle. Thanks. I'm sympathetic to your point of view, but biased toward my own. No harm done, I hope.

Kaitlyn Michele

12-31-2011, 09:57 AM

no harm at all!!

As someone that has transitioned..the idea of cisgender/not cisgender means something different to me than to you.. i have to make certain allowances in my life for my past...or perhaps i should say, my non-cisgender past..

A successful transition for me includes an internal cisgender sense (if that makes sense?)... Gender is no longer a meaningful factor in my going forward life, except where the world forces it upon me... and calling me transgender forces it upon me!!!
as a pragmatist, i understand that i can not erase genetics, i can not erase past events or socialization..but its unneccessary for me to do so.. i am safe and secure as myself.. i can't control others, but i can influence ideas sometimes..

..to use your idea...calling me transgender is not meaningful anymore, and it causes harm to my self interests.. the reason is the unfortunate negative image of fetishists, and big burly crossdressers demanding to use the ladies room at a mall on their monthly outing...its not fair...and i find it especially appalling how many crossdressers rag on people that are fetish oriented dressers, and brag about how don't crossdress for sexual gratification..and then whine about how ts people have some kind of hierarchy...

I don't EVER want to explain to anybody why I'm TG but different than this or that TG person..i mentioned earlier before this became such a long thread...it does nothing for me to be called TG..

I can support the fair and reasonable treatment of all us, without being included as transgender myself..in fact, i have a special affinity to do so because i spent so much of my life trying desperately to be "just a crossdresser"..

Kristy_K

12-31-2011, 10:04 AM

I have no problem with the terminology as long as people understand the difference.

I'd also like to note that transexuals are fighting for acceptance and RIGHTS.

Crossdressers only need to worry about acceptance.

What I don't like is people comparing the struggles of a transexual to the struggles of a crossdresser. And I don't like that when we're fighting for our rights, we're compared to the people who are happy being their physical gender and simply enjoy crossdressing for whatever reason. They don't want to give us the rights everyone else has because they think we're just crossdressers who like to talk about what color panties we're wearing.

A crossdresser doesn't have to worry about how the laws affect them or hold them back from being who they are. They dont have to worry about being arrested for using a public restroom. They don't have to worry about being allowed to get married or adopt a child. They don't have to worry about losing their job or finding a new one because they are different. They don't have to worry about where all the money is going to come from to allow for their transition to be who they really are.

And Jody, transexuals aren't hiding behind anything once they transition. They are finally able to take off the mask that was hiding them. You're saying that all the post-op transexuals are hateful... i think you are full of yourself and have a bit of hate yourself.

That was well said in a simply way Bree.

Cd's can give those who are in transition a bad name. Cd's also can choose where and when they go some place. People that are transitioning don't have that option any more. If you don't pass than is is even harder to live your everyday life.
It can be a fight to just be you. A CD's can just goes home and change there clothes. A TS must go on to protect there mental well being weather other people accepts them or not. A TS also has to live with the bad PR that the bad CD left with people.

CD's, TS's, IS's are all different people with one goal. They just want to be accepted as humans.

JulieK1980

12-31-2011, 10:22 AM

Keeping crossdressers or transexuals out of certain bathrooms doesn't do anything. I don't see a need to have separate bathrooms. But we're kinda stuck with mens/womens bathrooms right now, and getting transexuals the right to use the bathroom of their gender is far more likely if we're not also fighting for crossdressing men to use women's bathrooms. If crossdressers can use the bathroom they please, then where do you draw the line? Why let some men use the women's bathroom and not other men? And frankly, if a crossdressing male identifies as a MAN, what's the problem with using the MENS room? And no I don't think all crossdressers are jerking it into panties in front of a mirror... but a lot of people do... even people that decide our rights.

I do think that as long as we have separate bathrooms for men and women, that people should use the bathroom of the gender that they identify as... the gender that's on your driver's license.

No it's not black and white at all... but that's what we have to deal with from the cisgendered world. To make any headway, we still have to use the broken system.

We can't make everything perfect overnight, so we have to do what we can. And frankly, I think we need to fight for the rights of the people that are suffering the most.

Now this is more like it, and something, while I don't 100% agree with, I can support! My only question then, is why the divisiveness? There are quite a few crossdressers, fetish crossdressers, people like me that don't fit into any of the recognized categories, that would happily stand beside you and fight for those rights for you. Not because they want their own rights, but because by fighting for your rights, they will gain rights that affect them as well. It does remind me quite a bit of how some in the gay community wish to exclude the T from their own community. They feel that T in LGBT holds them back from greater acceptance in society.

I guess the big difference is that it seems you are willing to compromise by sacrificing some to save the most oppressed, and I DO understand where your coming from with that, but I don't personally think that's the best way to do it. By compromising I think it only compartmentalizes all of us into our own little groups and makes us all weaker when it comes to those that hate us. JMHO.

Julia_in_Pa

12-31-2011, 10:34 AM

Jody,

Please go back and read what I originally wrote. I never said that all cross dressers are men in pantyhose masterbating.

I did say that I refuse and that it sickens me to be listed under the same umbrellea as those that are men in pantyhose masterbating.

Concerning the bathroom issue; I personally have been blessed enough to pass very very well due to my intersexed status and have never had an altercation from bathroom use.

With that said I have a good friend who is full time TS who needs this law because she does not pass at all yet she digs deep into her soul everyday to live her true and authentic self.

Thank God Pennsylvania gives full time pre/non operative TS/IS people the opportunity to correct their gender marker on their driver's license.

Because of this she legally has a pass to use the correct bathroom .

We as the TS/IS community had to battle negative perceptions in Harrisburg with legislatures that thought we were nothing more than cross dressing men looking for legal acceptance of our fetish.

DO YOU KNOW HOW DIFFICULT IT WAS TO LIVE DOWN THAT PERCEPTION IN THE EYES OF THE STATE GOVERNMENT?!!?!?

Yet the rest of the "transgender " umbrella wants to be included in this when they have absolutely no business being included!!!!

When you go full time you literally put your life on the line each and everyday yet oddly enough their are those that are not full time that demand the same rights as a full time person has.

YOU DON'T NEED PROTECTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What you do need is compassion and understanding concerning the walk of death the full time person has to walk every day to be who and what they are.

For some reason I see those that are not full time here being upset and angry that we somehow feel upset that they wish to be included in these protections.

Do you honestly feel this way?????? Why ???????

Until you put on the dress and never take it off again you need to support those that are full time by not co-opting our community.

Whether you like it or not the full time TS/IS person has little to nothing in common with you until time and actions dictact that you are actually needing to go full time.

Your behavour towards us is not only indicative of child like tantrums it also smacks of male privilege.

Now either support us or better yet let us live in peace.

Julia

Rather off the topic, but yes I think it's pointless to segregate them. A stall is a stall is a stall, and a sicko is going to go in to a bathroom to assault a woman dressed as a man. Keeping a crossdresser out of them won't keep the predators out of them. IMO.

Also note, I'm not a crossdresser. (I don't think.) Somewhere between as I said before.

Now, personal insults aside, (I assure you I don't care in the least for those of you flinging them out there) Is it really surprising that you get a little lash back when everyone gets clumped into the fetish cd category and mocked by some here if they aren't transitioning? I mean really. Use common sense, if you mock people, people are going to reply in kind.

A serious question: Do you all really believe that it's so black and white? Do you really believe, as Julia so eloquently put it, that all those that aren't in transition are just doing it to masturbate into panties? I really have trouble believing that you people would hold those views. I've seen you, Bree make some extremely intelligent comments on threads here, and I truly have trouble believing that you (and your just an example here) would buy into that.

My "high horse" is just an equal and opposite reaction to some of the extremely insulting statements in this thread. I'm not strictly a crossdresser no, but it hits hard and it hurts. Especially when I see those that I respected hopping right on board with it.

Kelsy

12-31-2011, 10:37 AM

I wonder if the words were different there would be less angst
between the differing groups. Fact is words have meaning .
Crossdressers in most cases, in this country at least, dislike the
word transvestite. The word carries negative connotations
because tranvestites are more often than not linked with
fetishists etc. Even the word transsexual carries negative
baggage especially in the straight world - think transsexual from transylvania!
Many dislike the classification GID but some find refuge in that label. Every
single label under the so call umbrella tells straight society that
we are different and should be suspect . Fighting over labels is
not going make one bit of difference to them.

There are transsexual people who can
demonstate to the world that we are good people worthy of
reconsideration, there are crossdressers who can do the same
but the opposite side of the coin exsists for every category.
Personally I hate bigotry and bigotry has it’s root in the non
acceptance and fear of people who are different which in turn
divides everyone into groups and pits one against the other!

Kelsy

12-31-2011, 10:45 AM

Oh yes one more thing, Happy New Year everyone!!!!

JulieK1980

12-31-2011, 10:51 AM

Jody,

Please go back and read what I originally wrote. I never said that all cross dressers are men in pantyhose masterbating.

I did say that I refuse and that it sickens me to be listed under the same umbrellea as those that are men in pantyhose masterbating.

Concerning the bathroom issue; I personally have been blessed enough to pass very very well due to my intersexed status and have never had an altercation from bathroom use.

With that said I have a good friend who is full time TS who needs this law because she does not pass at all yet she digs deep into her soul everyday to live her true and authentic self.

Thank God Pennsylvania gives full time pre/non operative TS/IS people the opportunity to correct their gender marker on their driver's license.

Because of this she legally has a pass to use the correct bathroom .

We as the TS/IS community had to battle negative perceptions in Harrisburg with legislatures that thought we were nothing more than cross dressing men looking for legal acceptance of our fetish.

DO YOU KNOW HOW DIFFICULT IT WAS TO LIVE DOWN THAT PERCEPTION IN THE EYES OF THE STATE GOVERNMENT?!!?!?

Yet the rest of the "transgender " umbrella wants to be included in this when they have absolutely no business being included!!!!

When you go full time you literally put your life on the line each and everyday yet oddly enough their are those that are not full time that demand the same rights as a full time person has.

YOU DON'T NEED PROTECTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What you do need is compassion and understanding concerning the walk of death the full time person has to walk every day to be who and what they are.

For some reason I see those that are not full time here being upset and angry that we somehow feel upset that they wish to be included in these protections.

Do you honestly feel this way?????? Why ???????

Until you put on the dress and never take it off again you need to support those that are full time by not co-opting our community.

Whether you like it or not the full time TS/IS person has little to nothing in common with you until time and actions dictact that you are actually needing to go full time.

Your behavour towards us is not only indicative of child like tantrums it also smacks of male privilege.

Now either support us or better yet let us live in peace.

Julia

You tell people they need compassion, yet you throw around insults at people. I've read a lot of your posts on here, and you appear to either be a troll that likes to mock those that do have a fetish (see your previous posts) or you are simply sociopathic. I don't know which, and I don't care. Stop talking to me, and I'll stop replying to you. If you dislike my point of view, hit the ignore button, and save your petty insults for someone that cares.

Zenith

12-31-2011, 10:57 AM

*Backs slowly away from thread* Seriously, sometimes I think it's pointless to say anything because some just have no grasp of certain realities...

Pythos

12-31-2011, 10:58 AM

If we ask for everything then we will get nothing. It's better to try for something achievable, especially when transsexual girls are still offing themselves at such alarming rates.

and CDs are not?

I really do not know how to respond to such a selfish statement.

If we ask for everything then we will get nothing. It's better to try for something achievable, especially when transsexual girls are still offing themselves at such alarming rates.

and CDs are not?

I really do not know how to respond to such a selfish statement.

I did say that I refuse and that it sickens me to be listed under the same umbrellea as those that are men in pantyhose masterbating

I am really getting sick and tired of seeing this sort of insult. Not to give too much info, but... I do wear pantyhose, and yes I do masturbate. Not always at the same time, but like most HUMAN BEINGS I do have to release sexual tension. As I have said, it is the thought of my girl friend, or an attractive girl seeing me in my stuff, that turns me on. Does this make me a pervert or sick in the mind? Well if I do, then you're sick too because YOU wear panties, or pantyhose, and most likely masturbate while wearing them, OR not. Maybe you just go completely nude and then play with yourself. I don't know and I don't care. But I do care about your attitude towards those that DO NOT HARM YOU. It is the biggots and haters that harm you.

Julia, I don't even know why you are here. You are IS, and like my GF, despite her appearance has the legal right to use the ladies room and does so. She lives her life as the woman she is. She is also for the rights of everyone She like myself thinks it should not "effing" matter what a person chooses to wear, it is the spirit of the person that should matter. Julia, your spirit is damaged somehow. Your posts here are the most hateful posts I think I have ever read here. You lump me in with the hairy panty wearers (the CDs that indeed give the whole transgendered envelope a bad name, not because of what they do, but because of the other stuff associated with them)

To quote a very famous line "...I'm a human being God D%^mit! MY LIFE HAS VALUE!!" That is the line we all should remember whether we are gay, straight, Bi-sexual, intersexed, male, female, cross dresser, Transvestite, or transsexual. We are humans when you get right down to it.

Hatred of a group of people based on skin color, religious affiliation, ethnic back round, and yes clothing style, clothing preference, or gender presentation, is WRONG. End of subject. There is nothing right about such discrimination, and when I see such discrimination from groups that are oppressed by the masses, being directed to an even more oppressed group it really does piss me as well as others off.

I do not think myself better than someone going through full transition. I simply go by a different path. I could be said am very much like Andrej Pejic, except for the lack of huge sums of money, and growing fame. He is something that people should strive for.

Yes I can take off my clothing styles, and go drab......but I don't like it one bit. When I go out for dinner or events I don't want to wear a suit with slacks, or a (yeuch) tuxedo. I would much rather wear my Chenongasm, or the LBD my GF found me, or the fishtail gown I recently got. Not have to entirely pass as a female....MUCH like the aforementioned super model. The only reason I wear the prescribed male garment is so I don't have to deal with certain people getting offended. That really is it. As I said, I do not have, or exercise male privilege. Oh, and on that note....you all are not about to tell me that there is no "female privilege"? If, like a male, she stays within those boundaries set by society, she has MUCH privilege, but if she steps outside of those boundaries, (like if a male chooses to do something not so masculine), then she loses that privilege (just like a male would).

Sara Jessica

12-31-2011, 11:01 AM

Kaitlyn, your last comments make about as much sense as anything that has been said here. Bottom line, you are a woman. Period. Through a series of decisions and actions, you have taken ownership of that word. No one can take that from you, and I don't think anyone is trying to force you under the proverbial umbrella.

However, only you know the truth as to how often you find yourself having to explain the past, when transsexual was part of your identity, or even to go back far enough when you thought crossdresser was an apt description. Like you said, I hope you never again have to go down that road. But this is part of my point and I'll inject myself into the example. If I were to stand where you are right now and also be able to take ownership of the word "woman" by way of my actions (rather than by way of what is in my heart), I would have every expectation that I'd be explaining the trans on a rather frequent basis. I might reject being under the umbrella at that point from a personal POV by virtue of being a woman but for purposes of educating the Muggles who have zero clue what species of trans I might be, that umbrella becomes pretty helpful.

This whole thing is really stupid. We have labels that are well rooted in many areas of our lives. Some reject all of them outright. Others want to divorce themselves from the labels and preach segregation in our community. I find myself in this position of defense largely because I'm in that middle path area.

Questions are asked as to where we draw the line. Sandra, you said it yourself as follows when it comes to who in the community is seeking rights...

"The challenge regarding the umbrella term is when it comes to spending time on serious legislation and social awareness programs to improve the lives of those who wish to live in the gender they see themselves as whether that be pre-op, post-op, whatever! Is an openly identified Male that enjoys wearing clothes for whatever reason obligated to the same protections as someone with a medical condition that is trying to live their life comfortably in an opposite gender role. If the answer is yes, where do we draw the line? See now why the umbrella term only serves to confuse things?"

The issue surrounding the potential loss of job for the bra-wearing male is a real one...for him. And yes, it has ramifications for our community as a whole, for better or for worse. You may feel better about your place in the world by distancing yourself from such things but really, do you think the issues are going to go away if you divorce yourself from them? You may very well be impacted regardless of your personal position. And I gather that because you see his issue as being just a game, you are the last one who will be lining up in his defense. So regardless of any perceived frivolity with his issue, he's going to have to do it for himself and the resulting shock waves may very well rock your world. I'd think it would be more beneficial to stand with him rather than against him, or to dismiss him.

And Sandra, I don't see a need to dissect your points any further in order to make mine with clarity. Your words speak for themselves including those made in the past, before November when you apparently came out. You speak words of exclusion while acknowledging similarities at the same time which is really confusing. People will come to their own conclusions about whether the things you state are bigoted in their eyes, or if that gem of a final comment was in fact as condescending as they come. But I would say that you have managed to elevate yourself to a supposed higher ground which is what comes through in your words. This certainly didn't take long and my only parting advice would be to remember your roots.

Bottom line, Pythos really says it best, that the issues faced IRL and rights sought by others along the gender spectrum are basic human rights. Those who are locked away in the closet are not likely to demand rights, nor seek changes when it comes to rights, and perhaps not even venture out any further when the day comes that rights and/or acceptance for our community become the new normal. Some behavior behind closed doors really isn't part of our big picture unless it unfortunately garners media attention. By putting so much stock into such an extreme, there are many of us who get stepped on in the process who would be proud ambassadors, supporters and champions for our community. Those of us who perhaps have much more in common with those who would exclude us than they'd like to admit.

One last comment on a side issue that cropped up. Bree, you also talk about drawing lines...

"But we're kinda stuck with mens/womens bathrooms right now, and getting transexuals the right to use the bathroom of their gender is far more likely if we're not also fighting for crossdressing men to use women's bathrooms. If crossdressers can use the bathroom they please, then where do you draw the line? Why let some men use the women's bathroom and not other men? And frankly, if a crossdressing male identifies as a MAN, what's the problem with using the MENS room?"

How can anyone draw that line given the fact that no stranger really knows for sure where any of us would stand on the TG continuum if we are in fact read as being trans. Maybe the crossdressing man identifies as a woman when dressed. He sure as heck is presenting as one, as best he can. So the litmus test needs to be how he identifies? If that were the case, then I'd be using the women's room daily, no matter how I was presenting. Now that might get me into some hot water! So when presenting as female, would I be lumped in with the crossdressing man and be forced to use the men's room? What about the non-op full time transsexual? Which would she use?

Julia_in_Pa

12-31-2011, 11:01 AM

Jody,

Your refusal to acknowlege your mistake in quoting me condemes you and your name calling to nothing more than throwing feces at a wall hoping some of it sticks.

Sadly your ranting paints you in a light best reserved for the dark and seamy underbelly of human reaction.

Your lack of command of the english language dictates that people treat you as you treat yourself.

Sadly I had to be the one rolling up the proverbial welcome mat and casting you into the sea of hyperbole.

ἀνδρῶν γὰρ ἐπιφανῶν πᾶσα γῆ τάφος in my Greek ancestors language. Translated it says;

For illustrious men have the whole earth for their tomb.

Need I say more?

Good day to you.

Julia

You tell people they need compassion, yet you throw around insults at people. I've read a lot of your posts on here, and you appear to either be a troll that likes to mock those that do have a fetish (see your previous posts) or you are simply sociopathic. I don't know which, and I don't care. Stop talking to me, and I'll stop replying to you. If you dislike my point of view, hit the ignore button, and save your petty insults for someone that cares.

Kaitlyn Michele

12-31-2011, 11:20 AM

Sara, thnx!! well said..
I paid a price for my transition, i get certain benefits..
You pay a price for your non transition..you get certain benefits
they are different prices...good summary?

bathrooms really are a flash point..if you choose to transition, you don't have to worry about it...and i've said before, its arguable whether i can support a man's right to use a woman's bathroom...a large majority of gg's don't want you there...what are their "rights"?..

are you a woman? again...i can't say for you..but that's part of your price.. in fact, i think it shines a light on a big difference...if not transitioned you are required to deal with all the crap..you have to explain yourself, why do you have male ID? sorry this bathroom is women only, your stockings are not dress code at work...etcetc...and because of your choice, your internal understanding of yourself as a woman is not reflected back at you, and because of my choice, it is.. and for both of us, we both well know it pretty much impacts every little thing , every single day..

and yes i actually have divorced myself from the issues we are talking about here.
I have done it by planning well, working my ass off, and slowly and methodically winning over my friends and family to my cause
and every time i have to explain the difference between crossdressers, and transgenderists and gender queers and drag queens.,
i lose what i've gained...

and at the same time i am supportive of the fight to gain all possible freedom of gender expression of all types... and my actions speak loudly...including going to my daughters high school and outing myself to her class and to the gay/straight alliance..

People claim to want to fight for my rights..well then fight for my right to be what i want...which is a woman..not transgendered..a woman... fight for that...i'm fighting for you

JulieK1980

12-31-2011, 11:45 AM

Sara, thnx!! well said..
I paid a price for my transition, i get certain benefits..
You pay a price for your non transition..you get certain benefits
they are different prices...good summary?

I think that's an excellent summary. But, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, I don't think any of us should have to pay a price to be who we are. It should be a given in our society that our life is our life, and others shouldn't have the right to question it. Really this entire debate here is about how to accomplish that, is it not? Whether it's better to fight individually, or whether one subgroup of us hurts the others chances to gain rights. I don't really think the question is whether or not TS, or CD's pay a price for their actions. We all know that, and I doubt anybody here feels one group deserves rights and the other doesn't. (Insults from both sides notwithstanding) The argument seems to me, to be more of how to gain them.

One thing though, about the losing something every time you have to explain the differences to someone, (and I do empathize and understand why you'd feel that way) but, educating the people that don't understand any of us, is probably the single most important thing for all of us to do to gain the rights we all seek across the board. A lot of the hate in the world that is directed at all transgendered is that people don't understand us. People naturally dislike anything they don't understand. While certainly none of us will ever be able to convince and educate every single person they come across, but if even just a few of them get it, then it's a small victory, and those small victories add up.

Pink Person

12-31-2011, 01:00 PM

I'm going to try to say this delicately. Cisgender people don't want to be lumped with transgender people. More to the point, cisgender people don't want to be lumped with crossdressers and transsexuals, the transpeople who most want to be associated with them. If you are a TS woman, try getting into the FAB section on this site, if you need proof. TS men are likewise blocked from joining the MAB section, I think.

I support transgender and cisgender differentiation, but also recognize that some trans populations are closer cohorts with cispeople than with some transpeople. For example, ciswomen and transwomen are closer cohorts than transwomen and crossdressers. However, transwomen will not be able to nurture this close association for their maximum benefit by denying their trans status. Cisgender people will not forfeit their special status without a fight that will never end.

I don't think anyone thinks of themselves in general terms most of the time, even though general terms apply to us. We think of ourselves in the most personal terms that are comfortable to us. I think it is wholly appropriate for transwomen to think of themselves simply as women since woman is a generic term that includes ciswomen and transwomen. If being a woman is more important to you than being a transwoman (although you are both) then there is nothing wrong with expressing this preference in the way you think about yourself. Transwomen who don't differentiate themselves from ciswomen at any level of meaning, however, are being dishonest and are not likely to find acceptance of this point of view among many of the cohorts they value most.

These topics should be thought about carefully but not constantly. Gender algebra is exhausting. Once you have solved your issues then stick to your final answer, and put the proof away in a drawer. Drag it out again if memory fails or someone important calls your answer into question. In other words, there is no need to justify yourself all of the time to everyone. Pick your battles wisely.

Bree-asaurus

12-31-2011, 01:39 PM

Yes it would be great if everyone wasn't judged and everyone could just be who they are, but that just isn't how this world works. Change comes a little at a time, because people don't like change. If we could just change the whole of society and the world to be more accepting in one swoop, we would have given blacks and women and gays and transexuals and crossdressers and everyone else equal rights and acceptance long ago.

To say that we need equal rights and acceptance for everyone right now is great in theory... but it's naive to believe it can be accomplished quickly and all at once. If you have some genius idea that will change the world, PLEASE, share that with the people out there putting their lives at stake, fighting for your rights... so they don't waste their time.

JulieK1980

12-31-2011, 01:58 PM

To say that we need equal rights and acceptance for everyone right now is great in theory... but it's naive to believe it can be accomplished quickly and all at once. If you have some genius idea that will change the world, PLEASE, share that with the people out there putting their lives at stake, fighting for your rights... so they don't waste their time.

Believe me, I'm aware it's a long hard and bloody road, and I truly wish I had that magical answer. In the meantime, I do everything I can, and everything I can think to do to help where I can. After all, that's all anyone can do. If I had my way, I'd force acceptance down people's throats, but alas I can't.

I don't think anybody believes it can be done overnight, and if they do that would be naive, and yes we should target the fight to where it needs to be fought the most, and where it is most likely to be won. Picking your battles is very important to the big picture. I just don't think it's a great idea to completely ignore everyone else's struggle because they are different, and don't share your exact needs. Nor, should their struggle be minimized because it's different. For example I don't understand what it's like to be a fetish crossdresser, but that doesn't mean their needs are any less important than my own. They are just simply different.

Bree-asaurus

12-31-2011, 02:22 PM

Believe me, I'm aware it's a long hard and bloody road, and I truly wish I had that magical answer. In the meantime, I do everything I can, and everything I can think to do to help where I can. After all, that's all anyone can do. If I had my way, I'd force acceptance down people's throats, but alas I can't.

I don't think anybody believes it can be done overnight, and if they do that would be naive, and yes we should target the fight to where it needs to be fought the most, and where it is most likely to be won. Picking your battles is very important to the big picture. I just don't think it's a great idea to completely ignore everyone else's struggle because they are different, and don't share your exact needs. Nor, should their struggle be minimized because it's different. For example I don't understand what it's like to be a fetish crossdresser, but that doesn't mean their needs are any less important than my own. They are just simply different.

I agree. I wouldn't be like "NO, Mr. crossdresser! You can't do that because it's not your turn to have rights!" I don't even know how this thread got out of hand... All I was saying in the beginning is I don't like it when people think that crossdressers have it as hard as transexuals. I'm not saying that crossdressers don't have their own struggles, but if you're a MALE crossdresser, you are insane if you think you have it as hard as many of the transexuals who's stories I've read here, and the transexuals I know in person.

And for the record, I'm not making this argument based on my own experiences because I've been very lucky so far. I don't know how long that luck will continue, though. I'm already having a hard time finding a job.

What I do see is a WHOLE lot of discrimination and hardships that other transexuals have to deal with... and it's because of who they are as a person, who they have to be every day of their lives. Not because of their choice in fabric.

(This is kind of directed at Pythos who thinks that crossdressers have it as hard as transexuals and have the same suicide rates) You can say that women's cloths are part of a crossdresser's identity too, but if they kill themselves because they can't wear a skirt, they have other issues. I don't like getting dressed up for job interviews... I prefer jeans and a t-shirt. But I'm not going to commit suicide over that.

Melody Moore

12-31-2011, 02:23 PM

*Backs slowly away from thread* Seriously, sometimes I think it's pointless to say anything because some just have no grasp of certain realities...

It is getting totally crazy and now we other non-transsexuals weighing in on the transsexual subject? Unbelievable!

I'm going to try to say this delicately. Cisgender people don't want to be lumped with transgender people. More to the point, cisgender people don't want to be lumped with crossdressers and transsexuals, the transpeople who most want to be associated with them.

You can't make a generalised statement like that. While you obviously can't get your head around
the concept about gender, I know LOTS of other cisgendered women that have no problem with us
trans women being 'lumped in' with them. I was out with some of the most gorgeous GGs tonight
who fully accept me as a female. They talk about all the usual women's stuff with me without any
problems. Many are my friends in the lesbian community & have told me they see me just like any
other natal female and some were surprised to find out I was IS/TS. But this is something someone
like you would have absolutely no concept of and quite frankly I find this thread irritating because
there are so many people here with opinions about what it is to be transsexual when we are very
different to the rest of the gender variants under the transgender umbrella. I really liked Kaitlyn's
& Bree's comments and fully agree with everything they have had to say.

But argue all you want here now because I am really over this crap.

Bree-asaurus

12-31-2011, 02:38 PM

It is getting totally crazy and now we other non-transsexuals weighing in on the transsexual subject? Unbelievable!

You can't make a generalised statement like that. While you obviously can't get your head around
the concept about gender, I know LOTS of other cisgendered women that have no problem with us
trans women being 'lumped in' with them. I was out with some of the most gorgeous GGs tonight
who fully accept me as a female. They talk about all the usual women's stuff with me without any
problems. Many are my friends in the lesbian community & have told me they see me just like any
other natal female and some were surprised to find out I was IS/TS. But this is something someone
like you would have absolutely no concept of and quite frankly I find this thread irritating because
there are so many people here with opinions about what it is to be transsexual when we are very
different to the rest of the gender variants under the transgender umbrella. I really liked Kaitlyn's
& Bree's comments and fully agree with everything they have had to say.

But argue all you want here now because I am really over this crap.

Crossdressers are just like everyone else when it comes to understanding being transexual. The simple fact is they can't imagine what it's like because they are not transexual. They make assumptions based on their own experiences which as we see time and time again in this forum, is ignorant and belittling. They think because we wear the same cloths that they have a pretty good idea of what we have to deal with. They have NO IDEA.

And I'm totally lumping everyone into categories here with blanket statements and I do apologize for that... these are just generalizations. I have seen many crossdressers on here show respect for transexuals and what we have to go through. I by NO MEANS actually believe that every single crossdresser is ignorant when it comes to what we deal with.

I prefer when we can all just get along... but a few bad apples spoils everything.

EDIT: And bad apples are everywhere... we have transexuals who, in their infinite wisdom, tell other transexuals they aren't transexual.

Amber99

12-31-2011, 05:32 PM

and CDs are not?

I really do not know how to respond to such a selfish statement.

What? Why do crossdressers who IDENTIFY AS MALE(otherwise it wouldn't be crossdressing) kill themselves due to a lack of rights?Some transsexuals who can't get a job presenting as female literally have to choose to either kill themselves or go jobless. Crossdressers who identify as male would not have to deal with the harshness of GD when dressing as a male. If you do have GD when dressing as a male then you aren't simply a crossdresser. Not liking dressing as a guy and GD are very different things.
And how is it selfish at all? I(as a women) just want the rights that any other woman has. Because I don't fight for the any vague rights of each other person simultaniously I'm selfish?

I am really getting sick and tired of seeing this sort of insult. Not to give too much info, but... I do wear pantyhose, and yes I do masturbate. Not always at the same time, but like most HUMAN BEINGS I do have to release sexual tension. As I have said, it is the thought of my girl friend, or an attractive girl seeing me in my stuff, that turns me on. Does this make me a pervert or sick in the mind? Well if I do, then you're sick too because YOU wear panties, or pantyhose, and most likely masturbate while wearing them, OR not. Maybe you just go completely nude and then play with yourself. I don't know and I don't care. But I do care about your attitude towards those that DO NOT HARM YOU. It is the biggots and haters that harm you.

The point isn't that that transsexual have anything personally against fetishes or whatever. The point is that the general public can't tell the difference between us when we are all lumped together in the TG catagory. So people begin to think that transsexualism is a fetish rather than a severe biological/mental disorder.The world isn't going to accept us at all if they think we destroyed our lives and surgically altered our body's just to get off.

Kathy Smith

12-31-2011, 06:10 PM

Wow... isn't this fun? ;-)

Think of it from an outsider's point of view. They know nothing about trans-anything. They don't now about trans-x rights or anything like that. They can see 5 kinds of people:
1) obviously male
2) apparently male but looks rather feminine
3) can't make mind up what it is
4) apparently female but looks rather butch
5) obviously female

Now, how are they going to react to these? Obviously, it will depend on their own gender. 1 & 5 are easy. 2 & 4 are less easy, but in most cases they will be accepted. 3 can be really confusing and most muggles will try to avoid catching their eye or speaking with them because it makes them feel uncomfortable.

How will Mr(s) muggle react to finding 2 or 4 in their own toilets/restroom/whatever? They'll almost always accept them providing that they are using the facilities in the usual manner. Yes, you'll get occasional people who will get upset or make a fuss but most people just simply don't care. DONT try to use a urinal while wearing a dress, it's difficult, looks stupid and is a dead giveaway. :-) The argument that a MtoF crossdresser shouldn't use a female toilet is a false one. Rules and locks only restrain honest people. A GG in a female toilet is FAR more likely to be attacked by a "straight" male than by a crossdresser, just because there are far, far fewer crossdressers. Anyway, who is going to issue the badge that says "I am a Pre-op Transsexual so I can use the Ladies"?

To your average muggle appearances really don't matter that much. They can accept blurred boxes. If 2 & 4 are crossdressers or transvestites or pre-op transsexuals they don't know or care.
Officialdom (in all its forms) is the real problem. That's where you have to fit one of their boxes.

As I pointed out earlier, anyone who passes or attempts to pass as the opposite gender to that of their birth is automatically transgender by definition. We may not like that, but that's the name on one of the official boxes and there is little that we can do to change that. A few departments can sub-divide that category to some extent, but that umbrella term is going to stay because it's so convenient. You are NOT going to get transsexuals put into a different box from transgender though, simply because, by simple observation, you can't tell an early pre-op transexual from a crossdresser or transvestite. They may be the same anyway.

If you live somewhere where you can have ID that suits your choice of gender then that's great! You are extremely lucky to have such an accepting system and I hope that you appreciate it. I am a crossdresser. I would love to have a bus pass that allowed me to travel en femme without revealing my male identity (it states my name & has a photograph), but that isn't going to happen within the forseeable future. The paperwork/computer/little Hitler won't allow it. I can travel on the bus as male or not travel on the bus.
OK, I'm "lucky" to be "just a crossdresser", but I'm not allowed to drive for medical reasons. I depend on those buses to get around. I can't go shopping en femme to a big mall simply because I have to travel as male. I daren't go shopping en femme locally without risking my job and, possibly, putting my family at some risk. I don't live in a city and a TG person tends to REALLY stand out around here. I don't think we have anywhere near the sort of acceptance that the US seems to have.

If you are IS or transsexual then, believe me, I really wish that you could gain full acceptance. It must be extremely difficult for you.

I hope that we can keep any internal squabbling to this area. It seems such a pity that it is happening at all.

Kaitlyn Michele

12-31-2011, 06:24 PM

If you are IS or transsexual then, believe me, I really wish that you could gain full acceptance. It must be extremely difficult for you.

I hope that we can keep any internal squabbling to this area. It seems such a pity that it is happening at all.

gee thanks....

Btw...
Saying it's Internal squabbling begs the question...

Melody Moore

12-31-2011, 09:06 PM

Kathy, any MtF Crossdresser who does not have female identification should not be allowed in a female toilet. END OF STORY!

Transsexuals are already having to deal with the fallout from the result of a few perverts dressing up as women
and assaulting women and children in a ladies restrooms and bathrooms. And I don't need any badge to say I am
a "Pre-op M-F Transsexual", my drivers licence and all my other legal ID shows that I am a female, so for me it is
not an issue. However I am fearful of losing my rights and more stigma being created by those who are not lawful
females.

As for other MtF Crossdressers using male toilets, I know Draq Queens who use them, so why can't a crossdresser?
In fact if I seen a MtF Cder in the toilets making others uncomfortable, I would call security and/or the police myself
because I don't want to lose my rights. So now you have this other problem where transsexuals are going to go out
of their way to ensure their rights are protected against sexual perverts exploiting them.

I don't know where you get your definitions about what a transgender person is, but I can tell you
now you are wrong. I know Drag Queens and female impersonators who don't identify as transgender.

Transgender is a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and
groups involving tendencies to vary from culturally conventional gender roles.

Transgender is the state of one's "gender identity" (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both)
not matching one's "assigned sex" (identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex).

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransgenderAs you can see, the term transgender is clearly defined as a "General term" that covers a number of gender types.

As for you, a crossdresser having a legal female identity, unless you have been diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder
then the chances are that will never happen. For a start you need letters from medical staff stating that you are under
therapy and treatments, and for how long to be legally recognised as being a female to change gender markers. You can
say that you want a female identity for this reason and that reason, but actions speak louder than words. In other words
you should never be allowed to get a female identity unless you are under therapy & on hormones and living full-time.

You are going to be up against it, because I know many of my transsexual brothers and sisters who are going to make sure
that things stay that way because we have our own rights to look after and to protect those who could become a victim
of a sexual assault by some crossdressing sexual pervert. And no I am NOT saying all crossdressers are sexual perverts.

Remember Crossdressing is an something you do, not a gender identity - so get use to it.

Melody Moore

12-31-2011, 09:29 PM

Can any of you point to a single instance where a CDer assaulted or in some way caused someone else harm in the ladies' toilets?

I can show you quite a few instances of these types assaults but why do I need to go and google up the
links just to prove a point because you refuse to accept the truth? We have already been down this road
already but if you insist.... I will be back soon with some links to put an end to this argument once & for all.

Here you go:

Man dressed as woman attacks girl in Manchester (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-15784689)

Man dressed as female mannequin found in women's toilets (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1385889/Joel-Hardman-wore-female-rubber-mask-wig-spy-women-public-toilets.html)

Men dressed as women charged in Lincoln Park assaults (http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/9082742-418/2-men-in-drag-charged-in-lincoln-park-attacks.html)

There was another incident just reported recently where a girl was assaulted by a man dressed as a woman,
but I have to find that link again. But there are many more crossdressing crimes if you want to dig around,
but these recent examples should get my main point across.

Bree-asaurus

12-31-2011, 09:30 PM

If you live somewhere where you can have ID that suits your choice of gender then that's great! You are extremely lucky to have such an accepting system and I hope that you appreciate it. I am a crossdresser. I would love to have a bus pass that allowed me to travel en femme without revealing my male identity (it states my name & has a photograph), but that isn't going to happen within the forseeable future. The paperwork/computer/little Hitler won't allow it. I can travel on the bus as male or not travel on the bus.

"suits your choice of gender" ?!?!?!? Are you insane? We don't get a choice! That's the whole point! Maybe you just chose your words poorly...

If you're a male then you don't deserve any form of ID that states you are a female, regardless of what cloths you wear... You need to BE female to get female identification, and you need doctors and therapists to back you up on that.

Sorry you have trouble riding the bus with male identification when you're crossdressing, but you're just going to have to deal with it for now. Hopefully that changes soon, because I hate that we live in a world where people are so callously judged :/

Melody Moore

12-31-2011, 10:03 PM

I agree with Bree, the issue is not that you need legal ID to ride the bus dressed as a female, you
just don't need to be questioned for doing that. The same if you go into a male's toilet dressed in
females clothing. You shouldn't be questioned or threatened for doing that when you are a man.

If you are not a female 24/7 in everything you eat, live, breath and sleep, then you have no claims
to having the same legal rights as other cisgendered & transsexual women. If you were in our position
you might feel the same and understand why some of us feel so strongly about protecting what little
rights we do have. The lesbian community here won't accept MtF crossdressers because they are not
females, whereas they will accept us transsexual women with open arms as a sister and I mention this
because this also relates to what some people have said here. If you are a male, you cannot just say
"Ok, now I want to dress up be a girl" and go and violate the privacy of women by invading their space.
I am accepted as a woman by cisgendered women simply because Actions speak louder than words.

JulieK1980

01-01-2012, 12:15 AM

BTW the Center on Halsted in Chicago, which serves the LGBT community, ran into issues around T folks using the restrooms. The restrooms are now identified as "male identified" and "female identified" with no mention as to what constitutes appropriate anatomy or clothing or accessories for using the rooms. It seems to work.

Short of staging police officers at every restroom in the country to ID people, I'd say that's really the only logical solution. That and the private "family" restrooms that are popping up all over the country.

cara

01-01-2012, 12:50 AM

WTF? Why would anyone nowadays ever use the term "Transsexual". Are we transitioning our genders or our sexuality? If we are transitioning from one gender to another or stuck somewhere in between then wouldn't Transgendered be the most accurate term.
Secondly, I would like to ask the members here how many "Transexuals or Transgendereds out there at one time in their past weren't Crossdressers. I would imagine if we were honest including myself we would have to say yes unless one has a bout of CD Amnesia.
IMHO. From the pantyhose wacker to the Uber fem fully transitioned TG who only continues to stay on this forum
to help the needy, we are on one giant spectrum, labels are our states of denial.
Happy New Year, Cara

Julia_in_Pa

01-01-2012, 02:05 AM

Cara,

I was never a cross dresser unless you count the years of torture when I had to wear mens clothing prior to transitioning.

I lived and transitioned in Helena Montana need I say more???

Most transitioned TS women I know prefer the term Transsexual as opposed to transgender for the simple fact that the word transgender has been stolen by every cross dresser, fetish dresser, gender queer and everything and everyone else in a disgusting attempt to gain legitimacy on the backs of the TS/IS community.
As has been well pointed out in previous posts by myself and others we as a community of TS/IS people have to battle a negative perception that the general public has about us due to the transgender umbrella including everything that claims to be gender variant.
This is the reason behind the growing movement by the TS/IS community to separate ourselves in order to keep what little protections we have fought for and to continue our struggle for acceptance within the confines of the general public.

If you as a member of the "transgender" umbrella are not full time then you have no business and no affiliation with us.

Julia

WTF? Why would anyone nowadays ever use the term "Transsexual". Are we transitioning our genders or our sexuality? If we are transitioning from one gender to another or stuck somewhere in between then wouldn't Transgendered be the most accurate term.
Secondly, I would like to ask the members here how many "Transexuals or Transgendereds out there at one time in their past weren't Crossdressers. I would imagine if we were honest including myself we would have to say yes unless one has a bout of CD Amnesia.
IMHO. From the pantyhose wacker to the Uber fem fully transitioned TG who only continues to stay on this forum
to help the needy, we are on one giant spectrum, labels are our states of denial.
Happy New Year, Cara

Danni Bear

01-01-2012, 04:10 AM

This is an arguement that has no winners only victims. Transgender, transsexual, or intersexed really makes no dxifferencein gthe long run. We all are just people trying to liv e as best we can. I'll accept aCnyone who fits.without regard to their own self determination or others labeling. This is the best way I have found to live. Let the fighting stop, support each other, and educate the ones who don't know.

Have a happy and blest New Year everybody

Danni Bear

We have enough battles outside our community without internal ones that tend toseperate us from each other.

Kathy Smith

01-01-2012, 06:04 AM

Melody: "I don't know where you get your definitions about what a transgender person is, but I can tell you
now you are wrong. I know Drag Queens and female impersonators who don't identify as transgender."

Me:
Sorry, I didn't give a link to the World Health Organisation, who also provided the definition that I used for sex.
http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/
You are welcome to argue it out with them now. ;-)

"Trans is a Latin noun or prefix, meaning "across", "beyond" or "on the opposite side"." is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans
in other words, it's on Wikipedia so it must be right. :-[

Drag queens and female impersonators don't identify as transgender simply because they aren't and no-one expects them to be. They are obviously male and present as such, so use male facilities. A CD en femme does not present as male and would be putting themselves at risk in using those same facilities. < /me dives for cover. I sense another onslaught coming on>

Bree: ""suits your choice of gender" ?!?!?!? Are you insane? We don't get a choice! That's the whole point! Maybe you just chose your words poorly..."

Yes, sorry, I could have worded it better. "suits your presentation" would have been more accurate. I realise that choice isn't an issue here. Now you're going to get at me by saying that you don't "present" as your gender aren't you? For a fully transitioned TS that would be a fair comment. I was trying to be a bit more general though.

**** Happy New Year Everybody! ****

Kaitlyn Michele

01-01-2012, 09:34 AM

Melody -

Thank you for the links, however only one of the three events you cited took place in a public washroom. The man wore a mask(!) and a wig. Yep, sounds like all the crossdressers on this forum, alright.

I certainly stand corrected and am most humbled.

BTW the Center on Halsted in Chicago, which serves the LGBT community, ran into issues around T folks using the restrooms. The restrooms are now identified as "male identified" and "female identified" with no mention as to what constitutes appropriate anatomy or clothing or accessories for using the rooms. It seems to work.

I think this is a reasonable way to handle crossdresser rights.

I don't like the word pervert.
But we all know many crossdressers get off on being in woman's restrooms as part of the experience.
I am sure many crossdressers that don't have sexual reasons would love to disassociate from the group that does..If crossdressers didnt get sexually aroused from it, bathrooms would be much less an issue to many women..

As far your point cara about CD Amnesia, it is a fact..but it's irrelevant, and it makes the point ts women here are making...i certainly identified myself as a crossdresser most of my life, but i had my realization and moved on...
as someone that felt i was crossdressing, and someone that now lives a female life, i know the difference! and the difference sets us apart..
and i'm just gonna say it over and over... i still support cd's and all gender presentations..it's all good. but they are different..

to pink...i agree gender algebra is tiring..and confusion too... that's why i don't want to be any part of it..

Danni...in the long run, we are all dead... so what's your point? we shouldn't live the right way while we are here??

and Kathy, yes drag queens do not self identify as transgender...tell that to my next job interviewee... saying the word "drag queen" for any reason in a job interview is pretty much a death sentence..

Kristy_K

01-01-2012, 10:41 AM

I will admit that I was a CD before I transition. When you are a CD you are just fantasizing. Being a IS/TS is not fantasizing but living the realities of life..

And most don't have a clue of what you go through everyday to just to have the right to be yourself and get people to accept you for you.

Not trying to be mean but in my thinking being a CD is just for fun and games for the most part.

When you are a IS/TS it is not a game anymore. It is REALITY.

Sara Jessica

01-01-2012, 11:08 AM

Good gosh, how things have degenerated in the last 24 hours.

Kathy, any MtF Crossdresser who does not have female identification should not be allowed in a female toilet. END OF STORY!...As for other MtF Crossdressers using male toilets, I know Draq Queens who use them, so why can't a crossdresser?

Tell me Melody, how do we know who is a CD'er versus who is a TS versus any point in-between when someone recognized as being trans-something is seen entering the women's restroom?

In fact if I seen a MtF Cder in the toilets making others uncomfortable, I would call security and/or the police myself because I don't want to lose my rights.

Knowing that I have used the ladies room frequently over the years with zero issue (not as something on my "to-do" list or a freaky badge of honor of some sort...rather, to simply do what needs to be done in a restroom and then move along), I'm glad that you live on another continent so that I don't have to worry about one of our own calling security on me, or on one of my transsexual friends who short of a check of her ID or what's underneath her skirt you are likely to have NO CLUE about her being and/or identity.

So now you have this other problem where transsexuals are going to go out of their way to ensure their rights are protected against sexual perverts exploiting them.

Ya know, the perverts are very few & far between but they get all the press. Why? They're breaking the law, they're getting caught, and most of all, they're being PERVERTS. The media loves a good pervert story and we all suffer because of them. But to cite their existence as a reason for exclusion, that is just ridiculous. Their existence is soooooooo few and far between.

I don't know where you get your definitions about what a transgender person is, but I can tell you now you are wrong. I know Drag Queens and female impersonators who don't identify as transgender.

Hey, maybe that's why they're all cool with using the men's room.

Can any of you point to a single instance where a CDer assaulted or in some way caused someone else harm in the ladies' toilets?

Yeah, I was having the same exact thought.

I can show you quite a few instances of these types assaults but why do I need to go and google up the links just to prove a point because you refuse to accept the truth? We have already been down this road already but if you insist.... I will be back soon with some links to put an end to this argument once & for all.

Here you go:

(Three links removed so as not to further perpetuate the spin being applied.)

Melody -

Thank you for the links, however only one of the three events you cited took place in a public washroom. The man wore a mask(!) and a wig. Yep, sounds like all the crossdressers on this forum, alright.

Right, these have absolutely nothing to do with supporting the premise that there is some sort of prevalence of "CD'ers" assaulting women in women's restrooms. The dude with the mask is such a stretch, c'mon...you can certainly do better than these three examples.

Most transitioned TS women I know prefer the term Transsexual as opposed to transgender for the simple fact that the word transgender has been stolen by every cross dresser, fetish dresser, gender queer and everything and everyone else in a disgusting attempt to gain legitimacy on the backs of the TS/IS community.

Again, what makes you think every "CD'er, fetish dresser, gender queer and everything and everyone else" is trying to nab your rights??? Your comment is nothing more than hyperbole.

What is illegitimate about the crossdresser desiring the right to dress in a manner contrary to the gender binary society we live in? What is illegitimate about their plight when their chosen method of express bleeds into aspects of their life where their job or ability to obtain housing is threatened?

What is illegitimate about the "gender queer", or perhaps a more respectful term, the androgynous individual? These are also people who might be denied the same rights to housing, job, etc. as the transsexual individual based on how they present themselves to the world.

If you as a member of the "transgender" umbrella are not full time then you have no business and no affiliation with us.

And to think I thought I had already seen the epitome of a condescending comment. There is so much pretentiousness in this statement.

Not only does this statement exclude me from the ranks of your strongest supporters, it also puts me in a position where I have found myself defending those on the CD'er side of the gender continuum who are respectful of both natal women AND those who are full time or transitioning. Yes, I distance myself from anyone who would disrespect any human being by bringing their fetish into any public forum including bringing unwitting third parties into their fantasy and/or perpetrating any sort of violence under cover of a disguise (using this term rather than "under cover of CD'ing" because in the mask example above, a disguise element was much more clear than any sort of gender identity element). But don't we all? Unfortunately, these individuals will never go away despite any efforts to create separatism within our community.

Julia, your words speak of a trans-hierarchy dream that I hope never comes to fruition. The best defense against such perceptions is continued outreach and education along with positive media attention.

Julia_in_Pa

01-01-2012, 11:49 AM

Sara,

Please Google transgender vs transsexual and you'll see what the movement to separate is doing.

The reasoning why we have to separate is not so much because of the rest of the transgender umbrella but how the general public views the TS/IS community when it is forced to be included under the transgender umbrella.

Part timer's, cross dressers, gender queer's, fetish dresser's all have an impact on how legislative powers view the full time TS/IS community when it comes to introducing protective bills and ultimately passing those bills into law.

The shared experience of someone who is full time is only with others that are full time.

If you think for one moment that a full time person would not distance themselves from the transgender grouping in order to have laws passed for protection I say your misguided and have been deluded.

You may call me what you wish but the fact remains that full time TS/IS people have to constantly battle perceptions created by the transgender umbrella.

If it came to throwing the transgender umbrella under the bus in order to survive don't you think for one moment that the full time TS/IS community wouldn't do it.

My statement to the umbrella is; Leave us alone!!! Stop associating with us concerning legal matters of survival.
Your so called support does nothing more than legally dilute what the full time person is doing in order to make their lives more livable.

What part of "nothing in common" doesn't the transgender umbrella understand?!?!??!?!?

Julia

Kristy_K

01-01-2012, 11:56 AM

Not trying to be mean but in my thinking being a CD is just for fun and games for the most part.

When you are a IS/TS it is not a game anymore. It is REALITY.

I should say that being a CD is NOT fun and games mentally but leaving your house or place of comfort is up to you. The IS/TS has no choice.

Pythos

01-01-2012, 12:46 PM

Part timer's, cross dressers, gender queer's, fetish dresser's all have an impact on how legislative powers view the full time TS/IS community when it comes to introducing protective bills and ultimately passing those bills into law.

And once again, we come to the question of rights. Why in the world can the legislative powers NOT just make the rights for all of these groups...even the fetish dresser. As long as their behavior is decent, why not?

Julia, it is funny. You would happily throw me under the bus, just so you can get your rights, where as I would happily throw THE BIGOT denying you rights under the bus.

That is the key. Bigots, and Julia many of the posts you have made have been really really bigoted. It is shocking how full of hate you are, and this Bull^&%it reasoning you have for the continued denial of basic rights for everyone.

Benjiman Frankly said it best that those willing to give up freedom for security, deserve neither. YOU are willing to sacrifice my freedom, my freedom of expression, just so you can have security. YOU Julia, deserve neither. If I were a dummy I would associate all IS individuals with nastiness, meanness, hatred, and so on based on your example of that group.

TSs that are fully transitioned and living as women, to my eyes are no longer trans any thing. But ones in transition, along with Crossdressers, Gender benders, and androgynous people ARE transgendered. If you look at the base meaning of the two parts of the word, you can no longer deny this is the case.

Julia, no offense, if what you have stated in another thread is true, then you, like my girlfriend have NEVER been trans anything. You just are....and frankly I wish that was how all human beings were. (by the way this is the case even if you had to live as a male. My GF was made to do the same, as well as have "M" on her ID. She has one ID that has "F", and one that had "m". The one for the states is "m". But she lives as a female. She herself will say she is NOT trans anything)

Julia_in_Pa

01-01-2012, 01:08 PM

Pythos,

Because of me transitioning puts me squarely in the fight.

Do you know why I'm able to live my life as my true self?

It's because I'm a royal C**T that's why.

I refuse to back down to anything and ultimately I come out ahead of the game.

If that means I have to walk away from everyone else in order to live another day then you better bet your life I will do it and have done it.

I didn't ask for this life sentence but because of who I am I've been able to claw out a life for myself.

I will stand here and bully who I need to in order to provide for myself.

Only the strong survive this . I don't have to provide suicide statistics everyone already knows the rate.

The odd thing is a certain percentage of the transgender crowd thinks that full time TS and IS people are connected to them due to whatever delusion they suffer from.

The brutal truth is that we left quite sometime ago.

Read the posts from the full time crowd here in this thread and you'll understand.
I'm more outspoken about it because frankly I'm a real bitch.

Julia

Sara Jessica

01-01-2012, 01:13 PM

Sara,

Please Google transgender vs transsexual and you'll see what the movement to separate is doing.

I have been well aware of this fringe separatist movement for quite some time, thank you. My knowledge on these things doesn't begin and end on this message board site.

The reasoning why we have to separate is not so much because of the rest of the transgender umbrella but how the general public views the TS/IS community when it is forced to be included under the transgender umbrella.

I thought the reasoning was that the TS/IS community has NOTHING in common with anyone or any behavior described by said umbrella? (reference: your final point within your last post) Which is it?

My point has never wavered, that the general public has zero clue about what said umbrella means. The average person see us and comes to their own conclusion based upon their experiences with our community, or absolute lack thereof which is more often the case. Therefore, they fall back on media portrayals which often lead to the negative stereotypes you are rightfully fighting against.

Part timer's, cross dressers, gender queer's, fetish dresser's all have an impact on how legislative powers view the full time TS/IS community when it comes to introducing protective bills and ultimately passing those bills into law.

And a movement to distance yourselves will have most of it's impact within our community and very little impact on those legislative powers. Lawmakers are people just as I described above. They will rely upon what they know and understand short of being set straight through education. Like Kaitlyn's situation (and I hope I'm paraphrasing this correctly), she really hates that she has to educate anyone on the difference between the CD'er and the fully transitioned woman but sometimes it is a necessary evil.

Separatism is not going to bring about some sort of magical enlightenment on the part of the Muggles, whether they are lawmakers or not. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and provide a little education as a foundation in order to make your point towards gaining rights, changing laws, etc. I simply don't see that changing.

The shared experience of someone who is full time is only with others that are full time.

That I cannot argue with.

Just as I can tweak the sentence to fit my situation...

The shared experience of someone who is on a middle path is only with others that are also on a middle path.

This doesn't give me any right to exclude my middle path existence from the undeniable similarities between myself and others who might be described as being transgendered. Just like the transsexual woman, I too identify in this manner. But just like the part-time crossdresser who might venture out of the personal confines of their home, part of my personal therapy is to have to opportunity to simply be myself, perhaps in a public environment whether for hours or days at a time. I therefore have elements in comment with others who are clearly on a different path than I.

In my travels, I have been mistaken by others as being part of both the TS and CD camps. Do I throw a fit, grabbing my toys in an attempt to play elsewhere, alone? Not a chance. I simply educate the person I am communicating with on the differences within our community. Really, it's not that difficult.

If you think for one moment that a full time person would not distance themselves from the transgender grouping in order to have laws passed for protection I say your misguided and have been deluded.

Like I said, distance yourself all you want by way of education. That is the only way any meaningful change will be accomplished. Some rights you fight for may prove to be only applicable to those who are full time. But just as others will bleed into other states of transgendered expression, the bra-wearing-guy's employment issue could have the same effect, bleeding into areas which will affect the full time person. You can choose to distance yourself from his fight but absent active participation in such potential litigation, you will be forced to live with the potential of bad case law that could result and you would have only yourself to blame.

You may call me what you wish but the fact remains that full time TS/IS people have to constantly battle perceptions created by the transgender umbrella.

Sorry, the umbrella did nothing to create perceptions. You are giving it way too much credibility.

If it came to throwing the transgender umbrella under the bus in order to survive don't you think for one moment that the full time TS/IS community wouldn't do it.

It amounts to cutting off your nose to spite your face.

My statement to the umbrella is; Leave us alone!!! Stop associating with us concerning legal matters of survival.
Your so called support does nothing more than legally dilute what the full time person is doing in order to make their lives more livable.

I'm still waiting to hear what legal matters of survival is being affected by any of us outside of full-time status. What rights are us "others" actively fighting for that dilutes your valiant efforts?

Is it the fact I use a public restroom that matches up with my presentation?

Is it the oft-discussed fitting room issue?

Is it the fact that bra-wearing-guy can choose to file an employment discrimination lawsuit because his job was threatened by his simple act of wearing a bra underneath his outer clothing?

Or is it that everyone who is not in an exalted full-time status should keep their gender expression at home, safely locked away in the closet, lest their public existence somehow harm those who are full-time.

Julia, you are acting like there is some conspiracy within our community to co-op "your" rights when the fact of the matter is that the conspiracy lies entirely outside of our boundaries in the form of an uneducated (or mis-educated) public or worse yet, something outside of any of our control by way of the absolutely minimal criminal element which tends to get the press.

What part of "nothing in common" doesn't the transgender umbrella understand?!?!??!?!?

Nothing, eh? Geez. :(

Julia_in_Pa

01-01-2012, 01:33 PM

Proof is when I had to discuss with the legislative body in Harrisburg concerning gender marker changes for Full time TS/IS people.

The general consensus was that if the state allowed this that cross dressers,gender queer's, etc would also have access to change their gender marker based on fetish.

TS/IS representatives along with others had to add that gender markers only be available to full time trans people after a medical doctor signed the affidavit.

A state representative asked the question " where does it stop? " He was leary due to what he had been educated on concerning the entire transgender umbrella.

We as a group had to officially distance ourselves from the transgender umbrella in order to show differences.

It is because of this that we were able to have gender marker protection in the state of Pennsylvania.

Also take a look at the new Massachusetts gender protection law.
As good as it is it is missing one key component that would be all inclusive and that is bathroom usage.

Do you know why it was ultimately removed from the bill? Because the state legislature believed that everyone including men in dresses would be able to use the women's facilities.

They believed the lies of the Massachusetts Family Institute that said that any man dressed as a woman would be able to walk into the women's restroom and molest children.

This did noting but hurt the full time trans community.

This sends the message that you better damn well pass in order to use the women's facilities or else place your life in physical as well as legal danger.

Do I need to go on because I can and I will.

Just let us alone and everyone will be just fine.

Julia

Julia_in_Pa

01-01-2012, 01:48 PM

And another thing; I lost everything and everyone due to transition. Angry? Damn right! Bitter? Hell yes!

I'm tired and I sure as hell don't need any person demanding anything else from me.

I paid the price and then some to be where I'm at today and I don't need anyone attempting to cling onto my coat tales, I just dont.

I'm exhausted, my health is crap and my life is shortened from five years of living as my true self.

No one knows my battles except those that have walked this walk of death.

Those are the one's I need around me.

Julia

Sara Jessica

01-01-2012, 02:57 PM

Julia, the examples you cite are nothing but extremes. The State Representative who says "where does it stop" and an org such as "Massachusetts Family Institute" claiming gender inclusion restroom laws permit and/or encourage child molesters to use this as a ruse to commit their crimes are really no different than opponents of gay marriage when they say "where does that stop? Next thing we'll have is family marriage, underage marriage, polygamy".

Do you really think the likes of any org such as Massachusetts Family Institute will line up behind the TS cause if they feel there is no connection or concern with "child molesters"? I think not. They apparently used such hyperbole to kill the gender-inclusive restroom usage portion of the bill you are talking about. I'd bet the farm they'd jump on another bandwagon to deny you rights all the same were it not for the existence of such low hanging fruit.

Changing of a gender marker on an ID is reasonable with medical certification of some sort. What's wrong with working WITH your legislators in order to create good law? Do you expect them to do it on their own? They already are proving a level of perception detrimental to your cause.

Most former T women I know now prefer the words "female" and "woman" and the former T men now prefer "male" and "man."

In a forum such as this I will refer to myself as a T woman so folks know where I'm coming from. But out in the world, I'm simply a female. Like the documentation says.

I am still a member of groups such as Equality Illinois that fight for the rights of all trans people because their work helped me and countless others of all gender-variant behaviors.

And I thank you for conducting yourself the way you do, just as I'm thankful for my transitioning and transitioned friends who do the exact same thing, not eschewing the similarities within our community and representing us all.

Pythos

01-01-2012, 05:54 PM

Katesback

01-01-2012, 05:55 PM

Julia I feel for you. The people that actually make it through transition and beayond in many cases want little or nothing to do with the rest of the trans community. We have virtually nothing in common with crossdressers and idiot activists. We have nothing in common with gender screws, gender freeks..... We have no reason to fight because we are women with all the rights that we gained from living through the process. Those that have not lived through the process cannot even comprehend what we had to go through. Those People can certainly fight all they want for the right to be men and go to the womens bathroom.

As a matter of fact if you have a penis between your legs you cannot know that real transition starts after SRS. You can argue all day long against me and others but then you havent lived what we have. As I said we have little or nothing in common with the rest of the trans community. Does that mean we look down upon them? Do we look down on the lowly crossdresser? Nope I could care less what people do these days. I do however care if they think that I and other post op women are in some grandious sceme part of a family for we really arent. We are women that paid the price to be women. The rest either are in the process of paying the price or are just playing a fantasy.

And another thing; I lost everything and everyone due to transition. Angry? Damn right! Bitter? Hell yes!

I'm tired and I sure as hell don't need any person demanding anything else from me.

I paid the price and then some to be where I'm at today and I don't need anyone attempting to cling onto my coat tales, I just dont.

I'm exhausted, my health is crap and my life is shortened from five years of living as my true self.

No one knows my battles except those that have walked this walk of death.

Those are the one's I need around me.

Julia

Sophora

01-01-2012, 06:14 PM

Bree-asaurus

01-01-2012, 06:43 PM

Julia, you say it is so hard for you and people like you.

Then how in the world did my GF land a job at GOOGLE of all places? Her state ID is male, and yet she got hired as a female. Now figure that out. Maybe you just need to leave your state, quit being a bitter and angry person, and perhaps your life will be better.

But until you stop being so hatefilled and self centered you will achieve nothing but gaining enemies.

Wow Pythos... that post makes you sound pretty friggin ignorant.

Just because it wasn't hard for your GF to get a job doesn't mean it's easy for everyone else.

Oh I have an idea, let's all go apply at Google! Pythos clearly has the answer for everyone's problems! Being trans isn't hard at all!

kellycan27

01-01-2012, 07:48 PM

I know a lot of people that disagree with that statement. In fact, they make the point that when you were born a male then you always a male. It comes down to what the individual classifies as "male" or "female." Are you female? according some people, nope you aren't. you were not born as one. Just because you had the surgery doesn't change that fact.* So where is the line? Kate hun you are as much a female as I am or as much as others are. Do you think anyone cares if you had surgery or not if they knew you were male at one time? nope you will be just another freak to them.

*these opinions are not mine but that of some people have close-minded people

It has nothing to do with being more or less of a woman the then next guy.. but rather the issues that we face as transsexuals. I have a job, so a job is no longer an issue, I have an SO, so finding an accepting SO is not an issue. I am out to friends and family.. not an issue. I think that I have done a pretty fair job of assimilating into the mainstream. I am living as a woman, and I am at a place where.. A lot of the issues that transsexuals have to deal with are no longer issues that I have to deal with. I can talk TS issues until I am blue in the face and I can relate to what Transsexuals have to go through.. Been there got the t-shirt. I have yet to come across another TS who can relate to where I am in this thing. While they are struggling with their TS issues I am struggling with my every day life as a woman. I have a lot more in common at this point in my life with GG's rather than Transsexuals. Have I forgotten where I came from? I am doing my best!

Kel

Julia_in_Pa

01-01-2012, 08:02 PM

Pythos,

Google because of it's nirvana atmosphere that is inclusive of all peoples regardless of their sexual preference or gender expression.

That's like saying my girlfriend is Minnie Mouse and got a job at Disney World.

In the real world positions listed on Career Builder, Monster, any temp agency, etc, you need to have all credentials in place or else face cold hard reality.

Because of this statement you have shown me a lack of knowledge concerning full time living not because you are stupid but because your not full time.

My life financially is just fine. I have found the loss from my family walking away from me and not returning a difficult pill to swallow Pythos. This is yet another reality of most full time people that you have not experienced and thank God you haven't because that's when suicidal thoughts start creeping up on you.
That's when your thought process starts to turn to very dark places.

Anything else?

Julia

Julia, you say it is so hard for you and people like you.

Then how in the world did my GF land a job at GOOGLE of all places? Her state ID is male, and yet she got hired as a female. Now figure that out. Maybe you just need to leave your state, quit being a bitter and angry person, and perhaps your life will be better.

But until you stop being so hatefilled and self centered you will achieve nothing but gaining enemies.

Sophora

01-01-2012, 08:10 PM

It has nothing to do with being more or less of a woman the then next guy.. but rather the issues that we face as transsexuals. I have a job, so a job is no longer an issue, I have an SO, so finding an accepting SO is not an issue. I am out to friends and family.. not an issue. I think that I have done a pretty fair job of assimilating into the mainstream. I am living as a woman, and I am at a place where.. A lot of the issues that transsexuals have to deal with are no longer issues that I have to deal with. I can talk TS issues until I am blue in the face and I can relate to what Transsexuals have to go through.. Been there got the t-shirt. I have yet to come across another TS who can relate to where I am in this thing. While they are struggling with their TS issues I am struggling with my every day life as a woman. I have a lot more in common at this point in my life with GG's rather than Transsexuals. Have I forgotten where I can from? I am doing my best!

Kel

I have more common with GGs than transsexuals myself at this point. I haven't gotten to the point where others are in in transition. I see all of these "woe is me" posts and I would rather live as a women than as a transsexual, however that doesn't mean I have to have a "holier-than-thou" attitude to others.

However I wasn't talking about whether or not people how people are living but the account on how others see anyone that was a former "male." Are you out to strangers as well or do you just live your life? How do you think they will take you if you had a penis in the past. do you think they care or know a difference. You may not have to worry about those but there are plenty of postops that do(as they go into stealth mode), why? technically there is no difference between a postop and preop to someone who is bigoted.

Julia_in_Pa

01-01-2012, 08:17 PM

There is nothing that someone who is not full time can say that compares to anything that a full time person experiences over a period of time.

We are open, vulnerable, and have to accept the current political climate of our respective states and countries.

Laws dictating our everyday lives are made by those that have no idea what our lives are like.

This is reality .

How many times does a full time person have to say to the part timer that you get to take off the dress and resume your male lives!???!!?

This is the reason why I believe that I'm speaking to a brick wall when addressing you people.

When your at work and doing what your doing in male mode think about those that do not have this option and then perhaps you might begin to understand somewhat.

And no we do not have the option of de transition this is why we transitioned to begin with.

Julia

Sophora

01-01-2012, 08:24 PM

Julia_in_Pa

01-01-2012, 08:25 PM

Kate,

Your right. Why do I even give a sh*t.

Probably because I thought I could help other full time people.

With the transgender umbrella breathing down the necks of those they wish to co opt I can more than understand why almost all full time people eventually walk away.

You don't have to hit me in the head with an hammer twice.

I see the charlatans one has to put up with.

As for my personal life I associate with no other trans person other than here on this forum.

I'm thinking it might be time to walk away like everyone else has.

The writing on the wall is clearly written.

Julia

Julia I feel for you. The people that actually make it through transition and beayond in many cases want little or nothing to do with the rest of the trans community. We have virtually nothing in common with crossdressers and idiot activists. We have nothing in common with gender screws, gender freeks..... We have no reason to fight because we are women with all the rights that we gained from living through the process. Those that have not lived through the process cannot even comprehend what we had to go through. Those People can certainly fight all they want for the right to be men and go to the womens bathroom.

As a matter of fact if you have a penis between your legs you cannot know that real transition starts after SRS. You can argue all day long against me and others but then you havent lived what we have. As I said we have little or nothing in common with the rest of the trans community. Does that mean we look down upon them? Do we look down on the lowly crossdresser? Nope I could care less what people do these days. I do however care if they think that I and other post op women are in some grandious sceme part of a family for we really arent. We are women that paid the price to be women. The rest either are in the process of paying the price or are just playing a fantasy.

Pythos

01-01-2012, 08:34 PM

I have grown tired of this thread. It was a simple enough question, with a really simple answer.

Transgendered is the umbrella terms for people that do not conform to the gender binary.

Transsexual is the term for those transgendered that have gone through a process to attain the ID as well as body of the SEX opposite to that which they were born.

Intersexed, though not part of the OP, should also be defined but I can only do that according to my experiences. My understanding is they are individuals that were born with ambiguous genitalia. They can have characteristics of both male and female, and as with the transgendered continuum, they can span a wide range of types, but with several main types. My GF for instance has a very masculine build, as well as sharp facial features, as well other features I will not go into detail, but did cause her to be categorized as male at birth. In her country there was no standard procedure of reassigning the gender, but instead she was left to make her choice (something I think all IS should be able to do, hell I wish all humans were born with this, it I think would make life much easier in some aspects). Unless the IS individual was surgically assigned a sex around the time of birth, then that individual by the very definition of Transgendered is not trans anything They are in fact both. If we did not live in such a bigoted world these individuals I think could live a very free life. But unfortunately we live in a bigoted world, with an oppressive and artificial gender binary.

kellycan27

01-01-2012, 08:56 PM

I have more common with GGs than transsexuals myself at this point. I haven't gotten to the point where others are in in transition. I see all of these "woe is me" posts and I would rather live as a women than as a transsexual, however that doesn't mean I have to have a "holier-than-thou" attitude to others.

However I wasn't talking about whether or not people how people are living but the account on how others see anyone that was a former "male." Are you out to strangers as well or do you just live your life? How do you think they will take you if you had a penis in the past. do you think they care or know a difference. You may not have to worry about those but there are plenty of postops that do(as they go into stealth mode), why? technically there is no difference between a postop and preop to someone who is bigoted.

It's not a holier than thou attitude, we're just in different places. plain and simple. I live my life, and whether or not strangers know is of no consequence to me, nor what they may think. What does passable or not passable have to do with me or this discussion for that matter?

EDIT
after reading a little about you ( through your posts and threads) I have to say that you are in the infant stages of transition. You got for first dress in July of last year, your first counciling session in November of last year, you live at home with your mother who doesn't approve, ( so I am assuming that you don't live or even dress full time as a woman), and you have yet to start HRT.. Nothing wrong with any of this.. we all have to start somewhere, but you might want to gain a little more experience before you hop on your soapbox about other people's attitudes. You basically have zero experience living as a woman, and even less living as a TS woman. Hop out of the closet, and live it 24/365 for a couple of years then talk about my and a couple of other's attitudes. Anyone can "talk the talk" but it doesn't mean much if they don't "walk the walk".

Kelsy

01-02-2012, 06:02 AM

Kate,

Your right. Why do I even give a sh*t.

Probably because I thought I could help other full time people.

Julia

You give a shit because you care and want to ease the way for TS girls who struggle! Fact is you understand more than most!
Life is not going to hand anyone a free pass! The best advice and support I have gained has been from people like you and Kate
who pull no punches and accept no excuses!

K

Julia_in_Pa

01-02-2012, 08:19 AM

@ Kelsy,

Thank you for the kind words and support, they mean alot.

Julia

Katesback

01-02-2012, 01:02 PM

Ha thats funny. Yea I am quite blunt. Yes I have no patience for excuses. Yes I am very real. Yes I have lived through the process. I do not live in a fantasy world. I am extremely rare because I am one of the very few that have had SRS and lived years beyond it. Does that make me better than someone else? Of course not, but it does allow me to speak with a voice of experience. When I was working for the state helping trans people I was exposed to some of the most insane crap you could imagine. Girls being trans mommies to others and pretending to have an intimate knowledge about the subject. My favorite was a person who is a conviced sex offender and had an orchie (assumed that an orchie was the equivialent of SRS) and was giving advice to girls about SRS. Its no wonder I have no patience for most of what the trans community has to offer. Sadly what they have to offer is disfunction and hence the exodus of participation of post op girls.

Anyone who is pre op and thinks they know what it is really like to be TS is kidding themselves. Real transition starts after SRS. Dont believe me thats fine because one of the other traits that is cronic with pre op girls is they only hear what they want to hear. I was the same. I didnt listen to anyone and did my transition on my own without therapy and all the other crap. Of course I KNEW what I was from the day I can remember and I didnt make 1000 excuses for it. I did what I had to do because talk is cheap and actions are all that really counts.

Couple more thoughts. One I have herd people here say that a post op woman will never be a woman. Sorry guys but thats a self defeating point of view. I did everything I could possibly do to be the woman I always knew I was. I refuse to agree with the formentioned perspective because it would forever make me a tranny.

Since I dont agree with the context that your always going to be a tranny I will say that you have to have SRS to really be a woman. Srs changes everything and keeping the penis between your legs in any fassion is forever leaving someone seriously behind the curve.

And anyone that thinks that I a post op woman is part of a crossdresser and gender freak community is nuts. I am a woman and I became one the HARD way. Crossdressers are not women or have not taken the steps to become one. They do not deserve the rights I have. If they want those rights then they can stand up and fight for themselves. Since most hide in the closet I dont see that happening.

Katie

LeaP

01-02-2012, 03:10 PM

Kate,

I'm thinking it might be time to walk away like everyone else has.

Julia

I sincerely hope not.

Lea

Sara Jessica

01-05-2012, 09:15 AM

Do you think anyone cares if you had surgery or not if they knew you were male at one time? nope you will be just another freak to them.

*these opinions are not mine but that of some people have close-minded people

What does passable or not passable have to do with...this discussion for that matter?

However I wasn't talking about whether or not people how people are living but the account on how others see anyone that was a former "male." ...but there are plenty of postops that do(as they go into stealth mode), why? technically there is no difference between a postop and preop to someone who is bigoted.

These statements really cut to the heart of my point. If one is read as being trans-whatever as they live their day-to-day life as female, then what is the point in trying to make that separation and/or disassociation from the larger community. No one else is going to do you that favor.

Julia, Kate, and anyone else whose female identity is in a similar place, I would be the last person to say anyone needs to hold on to their trans card. You are women, terrific. I hope that your everyday life doesn't betray the trans in any way. This is of course your perfect stealth, that you have moved on and simply live your lives as the women you are.

And if you keep one foot in the trans community, even if only an online forum such as this, terrific as well. I'm sure your life experiences help many others who might be following on a similar path. But please know that some of that tough love wears really thin and does in fact come across as if you are on top of the trans-heap, having placed yourselves there through whatever rite of passage you choose to justify.

There's been statements made that those who are not full-timers move on and others which intimate that maybe those exasperated full timers should move on themselves. I have an easy solution. No one should move on. If you are a woman and the world knows you as nothing but, then by all means you have already moved on. But in trans circles, you are still as trans as the rest of us whether you wish to admit it or not.

Katesback

01-05-2012, 09:42 AM

I wanted to make a very slight clarification. You suggested I and other women live a stealth life. For me to be honest I cannot say I am 100 seamless in the eyes of the public. I cannot assume that nobody can tell I am different. What I do do is never talk to anyone about being trans except perhaps a few select trans friends.

These statements really cut to the heart of my point. If one is read as being trans-whatever as they live their day-to-day life as female, then what is the point in trying to make that separation and/or disassociation from the larger community. No one else is going to do you that favor.

Julia, Kate, and anyone else whose female identity is in a similar place, I would be the last person to say anyone needs to hold on to their trans card. You are women, terrific. I hope that your everyday life doesn't betray the trans in any way. This is of course your perfect stealth, that you have moved on and simply live your lives as the women you are.

And if you keep one foot in the trans community, even if only an online forum such as this, terrific as well. I'm sure your life experiences help many others who might be following on a similar path. But please know that some of that tough love wears really thin and does in fact come across as if you are on top of the trans-heap, having placed yourselves there through whatever rite of passage you choose to justify.

There's been statements made that those who are not full-timers move on and others which intimate that maybe those exasperated full timers should move on themselves. I have an easy solution. No one should move on. If you are a woman and the world knows you as nothing but, then by all means you have already moved on. But in trans circles, you are still as trans as the rest of us whether you wish to admit it or not.

Kaitlyn Michele

01-05-2012, 09:57 AM

These statements really cut to the heart of my point. If one is read as being trans-whatever as they live their day-to-day life as female, then what is the point in trying to make that separation and/or disassociation from the larger community. No one else is going to do you that favor.

Julia, Kate, and anyone else whose female identity is in a similar place, I would be the last person to say anyone needs to hold on to their trans card. You are women, terrific. I hope that your everyday life doesn't betray the trans in any way. This is of course your perfect stealth, that you have moved on and simply live your lives as the women you are.

And if you keep one foot in the trans community, even if only an online forum such as this, terrific as well. I'm sure your life experiences help many others who might be following on a similar path. But please know that some of that tough love wears really thin and does in fact come across as if you are on top of the trans-heap, having placed yourselves there through whatever rite of passage you choose to justify.

There's been statements made that those who are not full-timers move on and others which intimate that maybe those exasperated full timers should move on themselves. I have an easy solution. No one should move on. If you are a woman and the world knows you as nothing but, then by all means you have already moved on. But in trans circles, you are still as trans as the rest of us whether you wish to admit it or not.

Nope...you simply are incorrect Sara
especially the point about making the separation...

you simply cannot say this until you've lived a transitioned life..
having the world reflect back your femaleness with no doubt is a gift not all ts women share...

living any portion of your life as male is not living a woman's life..folks that are read as male have different hurdles than people that are not read as male...but they are still living as females..

living as a female, fully and permanently, is one thing..everything else is not....its really that simple..btw...not living as female does mean you are not transsexual..it means you are living as a transgendered person...

You are right that no one is doing transitioned people any favors...but what good does it do me to have to complicate my situation by having to explain the whole tg spectrum every time a person knows my past? I want the support from the tg spectrum because ALL people should support me, even if we endlessly debate whether we are in the "same group"..i support the rights of all...i have charity towards people quite different than me...but i don't demand that i be included in their group.

i do think sometimes people have a chip on the shoulder...but that's their issue..

Kaitlyn Michele

01-05-2012, 03:13 PM

Fair point, but read the thread Lots of answers...and You gotta define tg before u answer the op...

Tg is not a term that people agree on...and basically this is like politics. It's very rare here that someone says "oh, you are right, I was wrong I have totally changed my mind". It's the nature of things

Aprilrain

01-05-2012, 04:14 PM

If one is read as being trans-whatever as they live their day-to-day life as female, then what is the point in trying to make that separation and/or disassociation from the larger community. No one else is going to do you that favor.

The point is this is my life. I didn't wake up one day and say, "hey, I need a "cause" I think I'll go be a transsexual!" this is not a cause for me, this is me trying to make the most of a difficult situation. Every step of the way it has been me doing the research, sending emails, making phone calls, meeting my therapist, taking the risks and spending MY money. If by "community" you mean on-line resources and local TS support meeting then there is no need for me to separate myself from anything, those were tools that i used and continue to use. If by community you mean the host of CD, gender queer, and gay and lesbian events that so many trans people like to attend then yeah i have little interest in those things. been there done that and don't wear the tee shirt! thats not me. Again other than just not having an interest in those things it not something i need to actively separate my self from i just don't go. I have one TS friend who is serious and is making progress like me so many others I know are caught in an endless loop of money, job, family yada yada yada ISUESS! these are the girls that seem to be the most interested in Trans stuff.

Julia_in_Pa

01-05-2012, 04:25 PM

Intersexed people due to being the minority within the minority align themselves (myself included) with the TS faction due to transition.

We have a shared experience.

Many intersexed people widely ignore everyone under the umbrella for understandable reasons.

Let me ask you this; How many of you are intersexed?

A few here yes like Melody.

Now let me ask you how many have fallopian tube development and ovaries?

I know I'm the only one here with that.

Now think about a hetrosexual male cross dresser or a fetish dresser and someone like myself being aligned and lumped together under the transgender umbrella.

It just doesn't make any sense yet leaders within the transgender community say I'm included under the umbrella.

No!!!! Hell no!!!

What part of nothing in common is not made clear??

I had to transition just like many of my TS sisters here and that shared experience is what keeps the TS/IS community together and what keeps me here.

I have a trump card called evident biological anomalies accepted by the medical establishment yet there are people here that will argue that we are all the same and we need to align ourselves for the common good.
The answer to that is ABSOLUTELY NOT.

My transition five years ago forever links me to my transitioned TS/IS sisterhood and that is where it ends.

I get along with everyone here or close to it. I think for the most part I'm friendly and give sound advice.

I'll be your friend and will support you but I cannot stand by and have those that think their needs and wants are the same as mine attempt to allgn themselves with the TS/IS community.

That's where it ends.

There's nothing within the TS/IS community I haven't seen or experienced and because of this I'll call people out for things like this.

Julia

Katesback

01-05-2012, 04:28 PM

So you noticed the endless loop thing with many trans people? You notices that a surprising number are stuck in some sort of trannyland environment? You also noticed that of these people they tend to be the ones that are active in in this trans community? I would also guess these people are the ones that also tend to be activis. Am I onto something here?

Now getting back to the concept of separation of TS from the trans community. If it is all to often the case that those people you see in the community are stuck in the endless loop and you are one of the few that are actually progressing towards a goal would it make sense that you would leave the community and surround yourself with the normal world that challenges you to be the best you can be? Perhaps I should ask the question a different way. Do you think Tiger Woods (professional golfer) became as good as he is by playing people that were not a challenge to him? I mean you can call yourself a master fisherman if you are fishing for fish in a bucket.

So now we get back to the original post. Difference between a woman and a crossdresser. Well a crossdresser is a man (or at least he is till the time he transitions if he does) and a woman is a woman. If a CD decides to dress up as a woman its for fun because he is not a woman. If someone is a TS and really serious then they are not a man now are they?

The point is this is my life. I didn't wake up one day and say, "hey, I need a "cause" I think I'll go be a transsexual!" this is not a cause for me, this is me trying to make the most of a difficult situation. Every step of the way it has been me doing the research, sending emails, making phone calls, meeting my therapist, taking the risks and spending MY money. If by "community" you mean on-line resources and local TS support meeting then there is no need for me to separate myself from anything, those were tools that i used and continue to use. If by community you mean the host of CD, gender queer, and gay and lesbian events that so many trans people like to attend then yeah i have little interest in those things. been there done that and don't wear the tee shirt! thats not me. Again other than just not having an interest in those things it not something i need to actively separate my self from i just don't go. I have one TS friend who is serious and is making progress like me so many others I know are caught in an endless loop of money, job, family yada yada yada ISUESS! these are the girls that seem to be the most interested in Trans stuff.

Kaitlyn Michele

01-05-2012, 06:04 PM

:heehee:Heh...if I walked in and said fix it, the mechanic would smile to himself, take my car for three days and charge me $5999 and say "I fixed it"

Frances

01-05-2012, 06:20 PM

:heehee:Heh...if I walked in and said fix it, the mechanic would smile to himself, take my car for three days and charge me $5999 and say "I fixed it"

There is your difference!

LeaP

01-05-2012, 06:53 PM

So, off to the terms races! Some possibilities include ...

1) Transgender: transgender as umbrella, spectrum excluding transsexual, transgender AS transsexual (only), spectrum excluding male-identifying crossdressers, mid identity spectrum only (excluding behavior-focused crossdressing and transsexuals), ...

2) Crossdresser: crossdresser comprehensive (including TS - THAT should rightly tick someone off!), crossdresser excluding TS, crossdresser excluding non male-identifying, crossdresser including fetishists but excluding drag, ...

Mathematically, the number of possible pairs are already ridiculous and the definition possibilties are incomplete (if not capable of being infinitely sliced and diced). It's a good thing people like to feel unique, because we've certainly created ample opportunity to discern our differences, real and/or imagined.

Wait! I forgot to toss in physical considerations! Genetic variations, intersex, brain sex, hormones and conditions (e.g., CAIS), etc. What about qualitative vs. quantitative differences ... can we talk levels here? How about preferences and roles? And let's not forget generational views - after all, maybe some of us older types are too insistent on exclusive definitions while the youth are happy with gender queer and being transgenderists. Heck, why not add aptitude in there too ... after all, if one isn't suited to be a transsexual, transgender, crossdresser, etc., should one be pigeonholed into a definition ... I mean ... really? Think of the permutations! God, no wonder this never ends!

FWIW, MY view is this: Taken as identity only and with no umbrellas involved, crossdressER (not crossdressING) and transgender are mutually-exclusive. To me, transgender for a natal male starts at the point where primary male gender identity ends. That's it. Beyond that, I do use the terms in different ways in different contexts, including the much-unloved umbrella usages. Using my own approach, I see a critical, non-exclusive gender identity difference between transgender and transsexual in that the latter must minimally have a primarily female gender identity. And that's it for that (for me). No insistence on SRS, transition, etc. for the basic TS definition. I see TG and TS as overlapping, but that overlap clearly ends when you get to the TS who DOES transition.

Lea

Melody Moore

01-05-2012, 07:04 PM

Thank you for your post Lea,

Transsexuals & intersex have been poked and prodded, diagnosed and misdiagnosed, labelled and mislabelled
more than any other gender variants in the sex and gender diverse spectrum that some here call "transgender".

Medical experts or any other person who attempts to define us will never be successful because only we can
define ourselves and I wish that is something that some people could get into their heads. For some transgender
people such as a crossdresser being trangender is just all make believe and all just a fantasy. However for some
transgender people such as a transsexual, it is much more than that. There is this definite feeling that your body
does not match how you feel and this is a feeling that goes right to the core of who you are when you are a
transsexual. It is not a nice feeling to have and it usually means that you have a very tough life ahead of you
this is something else that clearly separates us from others such as crossdressers in the transgender spectrum.

Kelsy

01-05-2012, 07:34 PM

living as a female, fully and permanently, is one thing..everything else is not....its really that simple..btw...not living as female does mean you are not transsexual..it means you are living as a transgendered person...

..

So just to be clear, what you are saying is that until you actually live full time as a woman you are not transsexual?
Is there no transsexual classification before RLE? Anyone moving toward and through a transition with a goal to live full time as a woman is not transsexual?
Knowing you are a woman but you were born male bodied means you're transgender and are no different than a crossdresser who knows he is a man but dresses as a woman? I am more confused that I thought!!

K

Melody Moore

01-05-2012, 07:41 PM

Kelsy, if you are not living fulltime, then it is very hard to convince a transsexual that you
are truly transsexual because it is obvious you can be comfortable living who you are & I
know that personally I cannot be comfortable living that way. Before I transitioned I could
not expect others to take me serious if I was to say that I was a transsexual. That is why
I never made these claims to my ex-girlfriends when I told them other aspects of who I was
and my sexuality. I use to tell my girlfriends that "I felt like a lesbian in a male body". But how
could I expect them to take me seriously when I was not living full-time already as a female?

JulieK1980

01-05-2012, 07:47 PM

Medical experts or any other person who attempts to define us will never be successful because only we can
define ourselves

This entire thread sort of contradicts that statement. As a whole, we seem just as inept at labeling ourselves as historically, the medical community has. ;)

Kelsy

01-05-2012, 07:49 PM

No Melody I totally get that, but You knew you were a woman before you lived full time no??
and I would never say to anyone I am a woman unless I was living as one But transition is a process
is it not. Did you consider yourself trangendered before you lived full time? or did you know you were a woman?

I hate labels by the way and the semantic arguments don't get me were I need to go!

Melody Moore

01-05-2012, 08:34 PM

Kelsy, I did everything I could to avoid having the transsexual label applied to me despite
the fact I knew I was a female and was very different. I even tried to convince myself that
I was just a closeted crossdresser at one point for a couple of weeks or so. This was despite
the fact that wearing female clothes just felt right for me and I felt like I was cross-dressing
as a male. The first step in my affirmation to become a transsexual woman who was transitioning
was to change my name. So I clearly identify as a female. If you haven't changed your name
then you have not legally affirmed your true identity as the woman you claim you are.

Being transsexual is defined as:

Transsexualism is an individual's identification with a gender inconsistent or not culturally associated with his or her biological sex. Simply put, it defines a person whose biological birth sex conflicts with his or her psychological gender. A medical diagnosis can be made if a person experiences discomfort as a result of a desire to be a member of the opposite sex, or if a person experiences impaired functioning or distress as a result of that gender identification. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism

So do you experience major problems, such as impaired functioning or distress as a result of how you
have been defined in your sex/gender identification? If so and you haven't started RLE and changed
your name, then you have no way of legally affirming who you claim to be. And that is why Kate says
those that claim they are a woman but haven't taken any steps towards transition are just dreamers
because for a start nothing about who they claim to be is "in fact" in any legal sense.

EnglishRose

01-05-2012, 08:41 PM

Being transsexual is defined as:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism

So do you experience major problems, such as impaired functioning or distress as a result of how you
have been defined in your sex/gender identification? If so and you haven't started RLE and changed
your name, then you have no way of legally affirming who you claim to be. And that is why Kate says
those that claim they are a woman but haven't taken any steps towards transition are just dreamers
because for a start nothing about who they claim to be is "in fact" in any legal sense.

When the heck did this ever become about proof of being trans? Transition is not all or nothing in a flash (despite what Kate may say) and it is definitely not something to be jumped into.

By your definition you don't see me as a trans woman because I haven't changed my name or had GRS or what-have-you. I don't want to put up strawman arguments but that's definitely what you seem to be implying.

I'm following the path, personally, and jeopardizing the livelihood of my family and kids. I do know that you have to risk everything. But this is coming close to denying people their identities.

SandraAbsent

01-05-2012, 09:05 PM

I really think this thread has deteriorated into something ugly.

Julia_in_Pa

01-05-2012, 09:12 PM

Kristin,

This is exactly why there is the term transgender.

I'm not saying your not trans anything but if your not full time there is a large ethereal gulf between the world of full time TS/IS people and where you currently exist.

I realize your watching out for your family and I respect that but that is your choice and your reality.

Those that have had to move on either had no family or as in my case lost their family.

You have not reached the tipping point that dictates that you either transition or your family finds you dead as was my case.

Like I said I respect your decision but it boils down to exactly that your decision.

Because of that decision you remain part time and because of that status you belong within the confines of the umbrella until that point in time that you either transition or remain where your currently at.

Julia

EnglishRose

01-05-2012, 09:16 PM

Julia,

I totally understand where you're coming from. I'm past that tipping point and have already done a year and a half of antidepressants :) BUT thanks to my spouse sticking with me, I can take it more slowly. Only been on hormones for 3 months.

I would never say I had transitioned and have much respect for those of you who have. I unfortunately got annoyed that some here might deny my being transsexual.

Julia_in_Pa

01-05-2012, 09:18 PM

Kristin,

I understand your pain and depression on a very deep level.
here's to you finding peace and understanding sister.

God bless

Julia

Kelsy

01-05-2012, 09:19 PM

Kelsy, if you are not living fulltime, then it is very hard to convince a transsexual that you are truly transsexual because it is obvious you can be comfortable living who you are & I
know that personally I cannot be comfortable living that way.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything my only concern is to get the therapy I desperately need, and to follow the advice of my therapist and doctors and to negotiate my transition. I will ask for support and I might get some but I get a lot of rejection that is not new to me. It doesn’t matter who believes me, what matters is getting through this mess alive with some dignity intact. I am not interested in joining a hierarchy I'm interested in finding people who genuinely care!

Thanks K

Sophora

01-05-2012, 09:31 PM

. If someone is a TS and really serious then they are not a man now are they?

I just got what you have been saying now. I can be dense sometimes. gah! Kate thank you for being being yourself and the inspiration you and a few others have been to me.

Kaitlyn Michele

01-05-2012, 10:36 PM

So just to be clear, what you are saying is that until you actually live full time as a woman you are not transsexual?
Is there no transsexual classification before RLE? Anyone moving toward and through a transition with a goal to live full time as a woman is not transsexual?
Knowing you are a woman but you were born male bodied means you're transgender and are no different than a crossdresser who knows he is a man but dresses as a woman? I am more confused that I thought!!

K
Oops....I missed a double negative!!!...sorry....I meant the opposite of what I said!!.. Arghhh....sorry for the confusion

Clearly not all transsexuals transition..

Amber99

01-05-2012, 10:41 PM

Kelsy, if you are not living fulltime, then it is very hard to convince a transsexual that you
are truly transsexual because it is obvious you can be comfortable living who you are & I know that personally I cannot be comfortable living that way.

Regardless of who they can convince, they are what they are. People can live(for a while anyway) in denial, that doesn't mean that they aren't transsexual. You don't suddenly become transsexual when you go full time, you are born that way. Just because you scrape by(for a while) doesn't mean you are comfortable living that way.

EnglishRose

01-05-2012, 10:52 PM

Oops....I missed a double negative!!!...sorry....I meant the opposite of what I said!!.. Arghhh....sorry for the confusion

That was confusing me a little too. I already knew you usually made tons of sense, especially with the Skyrim playing :)

Katesback

01-05-2012, 11:06 PM

I dont think I or anyone else would deny you or anyone else who tells me they are TS but appears to be a guy. I only say that I do not take anyone seriously till a certain number of events take place. As was stated earlier the trans community is filled with people that never transition. Till you take that step of transitioning and then making goals and following through with them there is no point for me to take you or anyone else seriously. I always knew I was a girl since the day I can remember but a big part of transition is putting your money where your mouth is and going for it and doing what you have to do to prove you are what you say you are.

Finally you mentioned duress to your family and kids. Well sweety we all go through this. Thousands have done it before you and lived through the process. Dont think your situation is unique because it is NOT.

Katie

That was confusing me a little too. I already knew you usually made tons of sense, especially with the Skyrim playing :)

Pink Person

01-06-2012, 12:20 AM

We use our brains to talk about gender but rarely talk about brain gender. We are too busy measuring our genitals (usually against the wrong people) to notice that our brains are gender organs too and that they can vary in graduated dimorphic aspects from unambiguously masculine to unambiguously feminine. Since we can't inspect each other's brains, it's hard to say who has the brain that fits them best.

Some people have minor incongruities in the total combination of their gender characteristics. It's not unreasonable to think that crossdressers are such people, and that crossdressing helps them cope with their biological conflicts.

Some people have major incongruities in the total combination of their gender characteristics. It's not unreasonable to think that transsexuals are such people, and that having sex change surgeries helps them cope with their biological conflicts.

Cisgender people don't suffer from any type of personal gender conflict and don't use opposite gender clothing or opposite gender surgery to cope with their biological status.

Every transgender person has gender conflicts and suffers from them. We can argue about who has the biggest and best conflicts or suffers the most, but that seems kind of stupid to me. It keeps us from seeing the forest for the trees. Together, we represent the larger truth about humanity that subtypical gender diversity is natural and gender minorities exist in a wide range of manifestations. If this truth doesn't get told then all of us will continue to be freaks to most people and none of us will get the respect and social equality we deserve.

Melody Moore

01-06-2012, 03:58 AM

Regardless of who they can convince, they are what they are. People can live(for a while anyway) in denial, that doesn't mean that they aren't transsexual. You don't suddenly become transsexual when you go full time, you are born that way. Just because you scrape by(for a while) doesn't mean you are comfortable living that way.
I am fully aware of the fact that people are transsexual from birth, however you cannot convince me or a lot of other
people you are truly a transsexual if you don't take any action about it. As Kate point out lots of people talk about it,
but they don't actually do it. So there is no fact to back up who they claim to be. Just like I could not convince my
partners I was a "Lesbian in a male body" before transitioning. They all take me very seriously now & know I was telling
the truth the whole time. Until I started my RLE & changed my name & gender markers I simply couldn't validate being
a "transsexual women". So I can understand this mindset that until you do, you are 'transgendered" but there is no clear
definition until you take action to prove that you are not one of the other gender variants in the transgender spectrum.
And this is why changing your name & gender markers and living full-time as a female are considered the first step in
affirming your true gender identity. And that is just a small step in the process, there is a lot more than that involved.

Aprilrain

01-06-2012, 08:31 AM

Kaitlyn Michele

01-06-2012, 09:39 AM

This is quite true Amber however the experience of the closeted TS is very different than the experience of the full time woman.

The life experience is totally different..but i don't think its right to say that a person who ends up living a male life is NOT transsexual.. ( i know april you didnt say that!..just adding to your comment)

Certainly there are many people that are fantasizing they are ts...but in my opinion, that is mostly a message board phenomena, where people can exaggerate and lie with no consequence..

Just because so many of us have either known from our first remembrance and transitioned at first opportunity, or suffered greatly before succumbing to transition, doesn't mean that other ts people are trying to get through life as a male for whatever reason... many transsexuals are stuck in the endless loop (an excellent analogy)

BTW...i know this is a beat up topic..BUT
I think it's very appropriate here to share experience with those folks to help them understand how incredible it is to successfully transition, and its also helpful (altho some people around here hate it..) to be brutally honest about what is and what isn't TS ...the best case scenario for any confused person is to meet alot of ts people face to face and get a best understanding of what it's like...that is not always possible, and so many people come here to talk about this topic... threads go wherever they go, and they often get repeated, but i bet there are 100 people that read this topic for the first time and got alot out of it..

Traci Elizabeth

01-06-2012, 09:56 AM

BTW...i know this is a beat up topic..BUT
I think it's very appropriate here to share experience with those folks to help them understand how incredible it is to successfully transition, and its also helpful (altho some people around here hate it..) to be brutally honest about what is and what isn't TS ...the best case scenario for any confused person is to meet alot of ts people face to face and get a best understanding of what it's like...that is not always possible, and so many people come here to talk about this topic... threads go wherever they go, and they often get repeated, but i bet there are 100 people that read this topic for the first time and got alot out of it..

Very good commentary Kaitlyn!

Kelsy

01-06-2012, 10:16 AM

And what about primary versus secondary transsexuals, some find a division there and theories of full
androgenization and partial androgenization. Do you have to know at three years old that you are transsexual.
Many struggle for years and years not knowing what is wrong, or they misdiagnose themselves as being gay or perverted etc and when they finally get the information they need they have one of those " that's it" moments.
I think the most important step is to have a good gender therapist (one who is not in it for the money)who will make a solid evaluation and it is incumbant on the individual to be ruthlessly honest with ones self. Do you want to be or are you?? Not to be taken lightly!! Come to think of it if you really ask that question of yourself, you know !I would not for an instant know what living full time is actually like no one can take away the experience from those whom transition is a total reality but who could blame me for trying to find my way with the wisdom of those who have gone before!

ikatrina

01-06-2012, 02:29 PM

Bree-asaurus

01-06-2012, 02:52 PM

Aprilrain

01-06-2012, 03:35 PM

hi Katrina, the OP asked an unanswerable question, its a valid question just not one that can be answered. Naturally the thread has trail off into some pretty thorny areas, opinion's run the gamut! However it is simply a truth that a person who has not been where another has doesn't know what that experience is like. This doesn't make them good or bad or right or wrong it just is. Frankly you can HAVE the TS label! I DONT WANT IT! I just want to get on with my life as a woman as best I can. Did I turn my life upside down? hell yeah! did I throw it all away? no not really. I did have to assume the risk though but at the time it seemed like the lesser of 2 evils, the other being suicide.

Anyway on a side note what's so bad about being a CDer? Why do so many want to distance themselves from this label? I hear all kinds of different words and phrases used to describe dressing up in woman's clothing on a part time basis while still living the majority of your life as a male. I thought that pretty much was the definition of crossdressing?

ikatrina

01-06-2012, 04:13 PM

Thanks for your comments.

Bree, there are certainly many sub-discussions going on so perhaps my comments were angled toward the ones that struck a cord.

'Aprilrain', I wasn't distancing myself from any label or insisting that I get another. My point was that some seem to think that you need to fit a specific criteria to fit a specific label and that not fitting that exact criteria was being looked down on.... "just a CD" was one of those quotes that stood out to me. Using the "just" tag implies that someone else is more important on a community hierarchy. This didn't sit right with me. Most everyone here has different and varying degrees of difficulty because of our lifestyle but nobody should consider their difficulty more important ...or should deserve different treatment because of it.

'Call me' what you will, CD, TS, TG..... I don't really care all that much. However, what I am saying is that 'classic' TS's are not entirely different than others in the spectrum.

Bree-asaurus

01-06-2012, 04:16 PM

'Call me' what you will, CD, TS, TG..... I don't really care all that much. However, what I am saying is that 'classic' TS's are not entirely different than others in the spectrum.

Well, we're all human, aren't we? :)

Julia_in_Pa

01-06-2012, 04:19 PM

@ Katrina,

You because of you not transitioning does not make you any less a TS person but it does place you in a different category.

You and I do not share common experiences due to me transitioning five years ago.

I am no better but because of my transition my needs as a trans person are not even in the same universe as yours.

The transition process almost killed me twice but I made it.

I lost everyone and because of it I now wear it as badge of transition.

I bled and died inside because of my decision to be my true self.

Once you walk through that door life as you know it ceases to exist.

You cannot understand this because you have not walked that walk.

If you have been offended by anything I've said I'm sorry but this is reality as I know it.

Julia

Julia_in_Pa

01-06-2012, 04:22 PM

And Katrina, please do not use the term "lifestyle" that is an extremely offensive term.

I was born intersexed I didn't have a choice thus the way I live is not a "lifestyle".

I know you meant nothing by it but just reading that makes me extremely upset.

Thank you

Julia

Thanks for your comments.

Bree, there are certainly many sub-discussions going on so perhaps my comments were angled toward the ones that struck a cord.

'Aprilrain', I wasn't distancing myself from any label or insisting that I get another. My point was that some seem to think that you need to fit a specific criteria to fit a specific label and that not fitting that exact criteria was being looked down on.... "just a CD" was one of those quotes that stood out to me. Using the "just" tag implies that someone else is more important on a community hierarchy. This didn't sit right with me. Most everyone here has different and varying degrees of difficulty because of our lifestyle but nobody should consider their difficulty more important ...or should deserve different treatment because of it.

'Call me' what you will, CD, TS, TG..... I don't really care all that much. However, what I am saying is that 'classic' TS's are not entirely different than others in the spectrum.

Katesback

01-06-2012, 04:23 PM

If you ever make the decision to go through transition and then have surgery you will understand what makes a cd different from a woman.

Thanks for your comments.

Bree, there are certainly many sub-discussions going on so perhaps my comments were angled toward the ones that struck a cord.

'Aprilrain', I wasn't distancing myself from any label or insisting that I get another. My point was that some seem to think that you need to fit a specific criteria to fit a specific label and that not fitting that exact criteria was being looked down on.... "just a CD" was one of those quotes that stood out to me. Using the "just" tag implies that someone else is more important on a community hierarchy. This didn't sit right with me. Most everyone here has different and varying degrees of difficulty because of our lifestyle but nobody should consider their difficulty more important ...or should deserve different treatment because of it.

'Call me' what you will, CD, TS, TG..... I don't really care all that much. However, what I am saying is that 'classic' TS's are not entirely different than others in the spectrum.

LeaP

01-06-2012, 05:00 PM

Wow!! I just spent a great deal of time reading through most of this discussion and I can say that my (apparently incorrect) view of "support" across the community has been crushed. I'm truly surprised (and quit hurt) of the hierachale slant some have been putting on the topic and the ignorance and stereotyping going on. It seems that "transitioning" TS's (because apparently there "must" be a distinction) are completely different species and share absolutely no commonalities to other transgender individuals. :facepalm:

I understand the comments and complaints about things like hierarchical views of the trans spectrum, and I understand how they are read into the responses, here and elsewhere. To be honest, I share some of them. There is no doubt whatsoever, for example, that female gender identity (forget expression for a moment) in "our" population runs from none to 100%. There are implications in that. The internal experience is not the same as a result, and neither is the urgency (typically) of resolution. It's not better or worse. It just is, but you CAN view that as a hierarchy, should you choose to do so and focus exclusively on that. I would submit, however, that for every TS that may look down on someone whose female identity isn't as "complete," there is another person who wishes their own was greater. Wannabe's and elitists picking at one another. So I get that.

There are also varieties of trans identity, however, that are simply different. One may have no real male identity ... but also no female identity either, for example. I.e., the spectrum isn't a spectrum at all, really. It's a matrix. Any individual aspect of an individual's identity, phenotype, genetics, expression and role, etc. may fall anywhere in that matrix. Sometimes individual characteristics MAY be expressed in spectrum terms. Gender identity itself, considered broadly, often does - but not always. Even there, individuals, even cisgender invdividuals, have gender characteristics which are "atypical" (no, I'm not going to define it).

The heart of the heat in THIS dicussion is whether transitioned transsexuals are different (in OP terms - what's the difference between ...) from the rest of the trans population. And that's where I tend to agree with them and say yes. If you read carefully, they are NOT saying they (necessarily) are different in identity, but that the experience is so radically different that it just doesn't compare. Do other trans people experience deeply feeling their identity, have conflict, experience GID, commit suicide, experience depression and marital difficulties, blah, blah, blah. Yes, of course. But they do NOT have to live exposed in the same way, do NOT experience the same social and economic consequences, do NOT have to walk (there's a euphemism) away from friends, family, jobs, church, community, etc. at anything like the same levels of risk. It's not that these things don't happen to some other trans people. It's more that the situation is turned upside down. I.e., if 10% of the non-TS trans population experiences such things, 90% or more of the transition(ing) TS population does. To live transitioned is to live 100% of the time at risk of being a pariah. And THAT is "different" (OP), if not in kind, it is in certainty.

Lea

Amber99

01-06-2012, 05:46 PM

The heart of the heat in THIS dicussion is whether transitioned transsexuals are different (in OP terms - what's the difference between ...) from the rest of the trans population. And that's where I tend to agree with them and say yes. If you read carefully, they are NOT saying they (necessarily) are different in identity, but that the experience is so radically different that it just doesn't compare. Do other trans people experience deeply feeling their identity, have conflict, experience GID, commit suicide, experience depression and marital difficulties, blah, blah, blah. Yes, of course. But they do NOT have to live exposed in the same way, do NOT experience the same social and economic consequences, do NOT have to walk (there's a euphemism) away from friends, family, jobs, church, community, etc. at anything like the same levels of risk. It's not that these things don't happen to some other trans people. It's more that the situation is turned upside down. I.e., if 10% of the non-TS trans population experiences such things, 90% or more of the transition(ing) TS population does. To live transitioned is to live 100% of the time at risk of being a pariah. And THAT is "different" (OP), if not in kind, it is in certainty.

Lea
This is very well said.

Melody Moore

01-06-2012, 09:02 PM

First of all, let me just start off by saying that over the years there have been many gender variants trying to
gain acceptance in society. The ones that gained the strongest political voice was the transsexual community.
Since then other gender variants have seen how we have gained some rights and now they are pushing their
own agendas. There are drag queens, and those who cross-dress with transvestic fetishes etc and society has
taken us all and thrown us into this basket they call "transgender". But they fail to understand what it is that
makes us all so unique and different to one and other. They don't understand that we all have different opinions
and needs on sex and gender diversity. There are some remarkable differences between the main groups and this
really needs to be understood to help remove some of the typical stereotyping that goes on in society.

As suggested earlier, I think it is a good idea to share some life experiences of what it is really like
to be a transsexual so others here can understand why we are so different to other gender variants.

So here is another look at some of my experiences during my life as a transsexual woman born intersex.

You don't always need to know if you are meant to be boy or a girl at a young age to be transsexual. And
the reason why I say this is because of when we normally develop our gender identities & our earliest
childhood memories. This is something that surgeons who are assigning the sex of intersex infants try
and take advantage of. And the reason I understand something about this is because it happened to me
and I have no memories whatsoever of having sex reassignment surgery at the age of 3. I get some odd
flashbacks, but according to my psychologist, she thinks I am still blocking the most painful memories out
which is quite common for infants who experienced trauma at this age. I also have deep issues with my
genitalia which still affects me today that is most likely attributed to what I have been through as a child.

I started experimenting with dressing up as a girl at the age of 6, but it may have started earlier, but I don't
remember. I recall when I did it that I use to constantly question myself if I was really a boy or a girl. This
went on right into puberty when I first really thought seriously about wanting a 'sex change' at the age of 15
after seeing the movie about Christine Jorgenson in 1977. My dressing up was out of control if noone was around.
But there was no help available where I lived and there certainly wasn't any internet to research things to be able
to understand what sort of condition I had at this stage of my life, but I strongly suspected I was transsexual as well.

So you girls who are young and get to transition today are very lucky compared to those of us who are older and also
knew many years ago who we really were and first thought about gender transition & sex reassignment surgery.

Society wasn't at all tolerant back then and after overhearing two men I was worked with saying derogatory
things about a transsexual woman they knew was enough to scare me into submission and make me repress
my issues. I didn't want to be someone who would be unfairly judged & criticised so I started fighting it harder
so naturally the denial increases as well and this was the point where I become very homophobic & transphobic
myself and started to pretend I was really a man. But I fooled lots of people because obviously I was transsexual,
but had you asked me at that time I would have said "No". I did not want to accept that I was transsexual and I
did everything in my power to fight it, but it is something that seems to just consume you more as you get older
and you don't need to be a crossdresser before you come out as a transsexual.

I hadn't dressed as a female for 18 years when I started to experiment with it again at the age of 44 and when
I did it, I knew in my heart that was looking at a real woman in the mirror & not a man & this was the same feeling
I always got that lead me to question who I really was as a child. There was this peace that came over me when I
was in female mode that is so hard to put into words. I was very acceptable & comfortable as a female even before
I started on hormones and this is something that has been noted by my doctors & therapist when I did finally start.

Going from male to female was like a Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde type transformation & was instantaneous with me, except
as a male I was the demon, but as a female I was an angel. There is a huge difference in my personality and how
happy I felt about myself. If I had to switch back to male mode I use to feel down and depressed and this is why
I know already that I cannot live a double life like a bigendered crossdressers can.

So this is something else that I believe really separates transsexuals from the crossdressing community. I personally
believe if you are transsexual usually there is a lot of discomfort in your life with anxiety and depression until you finally
do stop fighting it. I don't see this same level of discomfort in some of those claiming to be transsexual and who have
not transitioned yet. Transsexuals also have different patterns in their behaviours and personalities as children which
is something else I have noticed about being transsexual, even if they didn't know in their childhood that they were
transsexual and felt uncomfortable with their biological birth sex. Many transsexual children who are repressed their
issues appear shy & withdrawn and have very low self esteem, but put a M-F transsexual child in a dress and see what
difference it makes to their personalities. I came out of my shell when I was allowed to be myself and had so much more
confidence which is very evident still today.

But like most transsexuals repressing their issues I had a very hard time coming out to other people about this. So
I led this secret double life that other people have no idea about for the best part of 3 years from 2006 until 2009.

It is interesting to note what brought my issues to the surface in 2006 when I was
doing well in repressing it for so many years, I will explain what brought it on shortly

Despite the fact I hadn't been dressing up as a female since the age of about 16 the thoughts were has always there.
As I have said a number of times, even as a male I always seen myself as a lesbian in bed with a female and there was
an incident that occurred around 1985 which revealed something very interesting to me. I was about 23 at the time &
I never identified as a gay male, the thought of gay type sex repulsed me. However I had a threesome with my girlfriend
and a guy, but in this situation I did not see myself as a male. I felt like my girlfriend & I were just two lesbian women in
bed with this guy. I enjoyed it a lot because my girlfriend and the guy were making love to me not in any other way. So
I know that I do have a heterosexual female sexual orientation, as well as a lesbian orientation, so this is why I think I
really am a bisexual woman.

A few years later I got dressed up for an ex-girlfriend at the age of 26 in 1988 and I was the spitting image of
Marie Fredriksson from the popular pop duo, Roxette. And that only happened because because we were drinking
alcohol & my girlfriend encouraged me do it and after I was dressed, she was in shock at how feminine I did look.
I absolutely loved what I seen & felt, but I wasn't ready for transition then and I am not sure my girlfriend would
have liked what she was stirring up in me anyway. But I still feared everything too much, so I dumped my girlfriend
a few days later because I was scared of what she might permanently reawaken inside of me.

But what stirred everything up was I was asked to play and sing at a lesbian's ball in 2006 by a lesbian friend who had
no idea that I was a repressed transsexual. She told me that no men were allowed. So I asked her if she was wanting
me to dress as a female and she said "Yes". Because I always seen myself as a "lesbian in a male body" there was a
real want to do this gig but I wasvery scared. So Itold my best friend about the gig who said he wanted to dress up
as a woman and come and perform with me.

Rah Roh! now this is getting way too scary so I never did the gig, but irrespective of that I could not stop my female
personality from re-emerging this time. This led to a battle I was caught up in for 3 years from 2006 until 2009 where
I was leading this double life in an attempt to defuse a lot of the stress & tension I was experiencing with my gender
dysphoria. During this period I was home all the time and alone during the day on my own so I was dressed as a woman
during the day and undressed or covered up if anyone was coming around or before my house mates got home. Most
of the time I would spend my time on my own in my bedroom just dressed as a female because it felt so right for me.
I had a phobia with mirrors, I could not stand seeing a reflection of myself in the mirror as a male because that is how
much I despised being a male, where as a female I could accept myself.

However I then made very desperate attempt to repress my gender issues so I purged when I met my last ex-girlfriend
because she also wanted me to move in with her which was a huge mistake, but anyway.... She had a perfect body and
was blonde and very beautiful. However I realised that when I was looking at her, it wasn't just a sexual attraction that
I felt for her, there was this ever present envy that I wanted my body to be just like hers. In bed I still seen myself as a
female and I even told her that. I also told her about my dressing up as a girl as a child. I even did sewing, floral art, and
loved shopping with my girlfriend, but she claims that she did not make any connections from the ways I was expressing
my femininity. When she found out later after I left her & come out she claims that she had no idea because I didn't tell
her I was transsexual, but the question is would she have taken me seriously when she had not seen me as a female?

I could not come out & say I was a transsexual because I still wasn't really 100% positive at that stage and I think it was
because I had not come out to the world and declared to everyone that I was a female. I really knew 100% that I was a
transsexual after I started living full-time, on hormones and changed my legal identity. Until I did that I felt that I couldn't
claim any labels really but no doubts I did fall somewhere into the transgender spectrum. It wasn't until I understood that
better did I know where I fitted in.

I hope this post helps some of you to understand my gender identity a lot better.

SandraAbsent

01-06-2012, 09:28 PM

I have been quietly observing this thread. I am just starting my transition, although a little in reverse. I made the decision to live full time before I started anything medically with my body. With this being said I have a different perspective, but I think I will share in the feelings here with the other girls that have transitioned medically. The background is that I have major heart issues at the very young age of 39. Hormones are just not possible for me right now. Surgeries without hormones would be a waste of money and effort in my eyes. So until I have a doctors give me clearance on hormones, I intend to not take my life in my own hands by self medicating or pursuing voodoo products to try to change things. Part of the reason I feel this way is because of this form in particular. For the last two years that I have been a member here I have seen post after post of "does this work, or does that work?" What I have found is that if you talk to anyone who is seriously considering transition, they will all tell you, "It doesn't work!" The conclusion I have drawn from this is that those asking questions like that are seeking an easy alternative or a temporary fix that they can switch on and off when needed. Whether it be a crossdresser or someone who is considering transition its easy to draw the conclusion that we all have something in common. Making the decision to transition or live full time is one that until you have made it, you will never understand. Here is a little perspective on this. A cis-gender female once said this to me and at the time my reaction was "How dare she?" The more I learn, the more I understand it...

Someone made the comment the other day, that a transsexual female could never completely comprehend the full female experience, that having had the male privilege and power in the past, discredits the transexual female from having to endure a position of always being viewed as less than equal.

Now you can probably conclude that this statement would make just about anyone in this current discussion enraged, as it did me.

My response was...

As I sit here this very moment sending out resumes for employment knowing full well that my gender identity is on trial every step of the way, how can I not feel as less than equal? It also mistakes that at no point in my life have I felt the "male privilege." As a matter of fact, if comparing to a cis-gender female, she can never fully comprehend the feeling of being less than equal, than I feel at this very moment.

Now after looking at this in retrospect I understand it. We even after transition can never fully comprehend the full female experience, because even though we may have felt female at one point in our lives we were not. So when we went to school or activity choices weren't limited to hopscotch and hula hoops, when we went to high school our career choices weren't limited to "You'd better be a nurse, teacher, or hair stylist." Put simply we had choices, and because we have or had a clinically strong desire to be a female, we made the choice to transition. Once we transition we begin to see the world through a real woman's eyes but only when we make that decision do we fully experience that.

Now for a moment lets pull this all back into this discussion. Consider this for a moment...

Until you make the decision to live full time and transition, you will never experience the full transsexual experience, and never fully appreciate the challenges it presents. You may be familiar with them, you may be planning for them, but you have not experienced them. Are you willing to risk everything? I am!

I had no choice. If I waited for the medical field to determine I was ready, I could be old, grey, and wrinkly. I had to flip the switch. Over the next few years while I establish my new identity, I am acutely aware of what I will face from family, friends, church, and employment. I am very aware that name change will be easy, but because of the lack of medical treatment gender marker will be next to impossible. This has to be the only place I differ with some of the opinions expressed here. I do not feel less of a woman. I am risking everything I can except my life. I will not put that in danger until my Doctors say the risk is minimized.

I do agree however that you have to put your money where your mouth is. And that is the distinct difference. What risks have you taken? A crossdresser has a certain level of risks to identify the way he wants to, a transsexual has certain risks before transition that she must assume in order to be able to identify with herself. I empathize with everyone, but I cannot relate. So the original post was about the difference between a crossdresser and a transgender. I think that very accurately this thread has made it relevant that there needs to be a dissection of the umbrella term in order to clarify the differences more accurately. I think the key difference that has not been discussed here is the difference between empathy for anyone under the umbrella and the ability to truly relate to the "full transsexual experience." Unless you are living it, you really can only empathize.

I make it clear in any discussion about transgender rights that I am not an activist but I will fight for what I believe in. I am not fighting to use the restroom, I am not fighting for the right to use dressing rooms, and I am not fighting for the rights of everyone under the umbrella or the cliche transgender mantras. I am fighting for the right to live my life and anything that will assist me or others in my situation in achieving that goal. Ok rant over....done!