(Thinking out loud) why so many of us?

[Marleena]

I'm sure nobody has the answer but this crosses my mind quite often. We read being TG is a genetic and biological condition. It's also documented to be centuries old. Are we growing in number or is just that there is more awareness due to the internet and other media?

[Brynn_A]

Having lived just south of San Fransisco in the late 70 and early 80's, I think the percetages are the same..the awareness may be more.

[Rachel Morley]

I think that the desire to CD has probably always been the same over the years, but these days I believe there is less social pressure than (say?) in Victorian times (or similar) to conform, plus the Internet for sure has facilitated more knowledge and networking of CDers themselves to do what they want to do. Awareness amongst the general public? ... well yesm, but that IMHO is more about awareness of the term "transgender" more so, not so much "what makes a crossdresser tick" :2c:

[Misti]

Are we growing in number or is just that there is more awareness due to the Internet and other media?

Since I am so new to the idea of CDing, and thusly, am getting "very well" educated here in this forum, I am forced to go with the latter perception... You can chalk this one up to education... :drink:

[ArleneRaquel]

The internet has open many positives venues for our community. I think its wonderful. The percentage, of crossdressers in the population at large, IMHO has likely stayed about the same.

[sandra-leigh]

If we try to match against the statistics gathered in earlier (anonymous) studies, we would probably be led to conclude that it is just the case that there is more exposure and more possibility to act.

On the other hand, I have read that if we go by those statistics, that more people have already undergone SRS in the USA than the statistics predict as existing at all, including the stats for No-Operation transsexuals. Going by that, either the stats were wrong, or the prevalence has increased.

The trans unit for the city I live in was set up about 2 years ago; I have been told it has already served more trans people from the city alone than were believed to have existed in the province. The demand is not getting any lower, either: they doubled the staff, and they closed off new patient intake in the summer, but the appointment waits have more than doubled beyond what they themselves considered to be the "crisis" point.

Something that I find to be of interest, is that at that trans unit there are (nearly) always FTM waiting when I am there; and that when I go to Transgender Day of Remembrance in this city, there are more FTM than MTF. I have seen some statistics indicating that the numbers of MTF and FTM are roughly equal, but most of the statistics I have seen have rated FTM as a small fraction of MTF. If the roughly-equal figures are more nearly correct then there are far more TG in society than have been realized.

[Longing2be-Trisha]

The Internet helped me become aware of why I had violent outburst towards myself and others. I was not alone in how I felt inside on being female. This site and others helped me come to terms with these feelings and too start transitioning into the woman I always knew I was meant to be.

Hugs

[noeleena]

Hi.

Over the years about 10 the number of dressers & trans & I S not including others is at the last , about give or take some 100.000 people im on a lot of forums & that was over 4 years ago. so now i'd say many more .

What we dont have is a how many & will we ever know dought it as many 1000's of others wont say or show thier faces. so as a quess id say 200.000 & even then more . the net has opened up a lot of contact.

Over the last few years more have come out , & the forums im on trans & dressers. only . i know of over 80.000.people,so many people , so how many each day join our forums...

...noeleena...

[sterling12]

You can find old photographs of Transwomen who had their picture taken by a photographer, going right back to the beginnings of photography. And when you think about it, imagine the kind of Guts it must have taken to do anything like that in times where doing something "unspeakable" could get you strung up! Back then, I imagine the actual numbers of transfolk were probably just about the same.

BUT, there is a big difference between the numbers of people who are now "Out," and just about any time in history. Today I would imagine the number of people who are publicly Out, would outnumber past generations by perhaps hundreds to one. Less than sixty years ago, one could, and did get arrested for publicly wearing clothes of the opposite sex. If you did go "out and about," you were confined to the darkest, and worst parts of town; and limited to a couple of "Gay Bars" that might or might not accept you on any given night.

Most Rational Studies put us at between two and five percent of the population. That doesn't seem to have changed since pioneering research by Kinsey in The Late 1940's. But I would imagine that "public" T-Folk have possibly gone up to maybe five or ten percent of that whole T-Population, whereas in the past; the numbers were probably in hundredths of one percent.

In the future, probably more public awareness, less timidity from T-Folk; and probably an even larger increase of Transmen and women who choose to lead an Open Life. Now, isn't that a wonderful idea!

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Gaby2]

I'm sure nobody has the answer but this crosses my mind quite often. We read being TG is a genetic and biological condition. It's also documented to be centuries old. Are we growing in number or is just that there is more awareness due to the internet and other media?
Hi Marleena,
that's amazing how much you've said in four simple sentences!

After eighteen months on the forum and considering CDing (TG) part of everyday life, I'm still dumbfounded that it never occurred to me beforehand that there might be other people out there with similar feelings.

Time will (always) tell... if only we humans would give time the chance...
:<3:Gaby

[Rianna Humble]

Are we growing in number or is just that there is more awareness due to the internet and other media?

The short answer is "yes".

A slightly longer answer is that given that the population of the earth has more than doubled in the last 50 years then even if the percentage of transgender folk has stayed the same, there are more than twice as many of us as there were when I was a child. Add to that the Internet and tabloid sensationalism and you will see how we may have become more visible than our increased numbers alone would suggest. Now if you add in the effect of legislation in the last 5 or so years actually starting to give us rights in some countries it is not that surprising that we have started to come out more and more.

A recent study in the UK by the Gender Identity Research and Education Society suggests that the number of people in that country who are seeking help for Gender Dysphoria has doubled in the last 6 1/2 years. Based on their research, they estimate that there could be about 1% of the population who are gender variant. If we take this (fairly conservative) estimate, then there are 10 million more transgender folk worldwide than there were 12 years ago (the time frame for the population going from 6 to 7 billion).

[girlygirly]

If we try to match against the statistics gathered in earlier (anonymous) studies, we would probably be led to conclude that it is just the case that there is more exposure and more possibility to act.
I wonder about this as well. Has anyone ever stopped to consider that there may be more crossdressers because there is a whole lot more access to sexy female clothing than there was 100 years ago, and a much greater opportunity for us to go out amongst people en femme without immediately being recognized? There has also been a general loosening of long held societal rules governing sexuality over the last half-century or so.




Something that I find to be of interest, is that at that trans unit there are (nearly) always FTM waiting when I am there; and that when I go to Transgender Day of Remembrance in this city, there are more FTM than MTF. I have seen some statistics indicating that the numbers of MTF and FTM are roughly equal, but most of the statistics I have seen have rated FTM as a small fraction of MTF. If the roughly-equal figures are more nearly correct then there are far more TG in society than have been realized.
This is another mystery than genetic scientists have failed to adequately answer. I understand there is a great deal of evidence to support the many theories, but I also realize that a great many more of us played dress up games with older family members and babysitters than in generations past. That happened to me a fair bit as a child, well before I became interested in dressing up on my own at age 8. There are also a lot more boys who seem to have gotten dolled up in a dress, high heels, and make up, than girls who put on trousers and splashed some Aqua Velva on their faces.

It's very easy for me to latch onto a scientific conclusion that I'm genetically different from those who are non-CD/TG/TS, but it's also difficult for me to overlook some of the obvious contradictions that exist outside of a laboratory setting. I'm not so sure the growth of our community can be fully explained with only math and genetics, I wonder if natural curiosity and a more widespread opportunity to experiment as children may also play a big role.

Has anyone ever done any studies into crossdressing amongst the more recently discovered primitive cultures? I know we have at least one member from Africa, who never had access to female undergarments before he discovered the outside world and the internet. I found that interesting, myself.

[Renee W]

I'm sure the numbers have always been there, as you said, with the Internet we have just become more aware. Before the Internet, I thought I was a pervert or something for crossdressing. Now I know I'm not, I'm just on a different part of the gender spectrum than others.

[Tina B.]

I don't know if we are growing in percentage, of the population, but thanks to the INTERNET we have a lot more contact than ever before. I've been doing this for 60 years, way before the INTERNET, but then I thought I was a lone, and I think finding all of you, makes the real difference!
Tina B.

[sometimes_miss]

The actual numbers probably remain the same. All we see is the change of numbers who admit to the behavior. Go to a middle eastern country, stand on a corner, with a sign advertising a crossdressing social club. See how many people respond. Do the same during a trans festival in the UK or the states and see the difference. 'Nuff said.

[Marleena]

I don't know if we are growing in percentage, of the population, but thanks to the INTERNET we have a lot more contact than ever before. I've been doing this for 60 years, way before the INTERNET, but then I thought I was a lone, and I think finding all of you, makes the real difference!
Tina B.

Tina had the internet been out there 40 years ago I wouldn't be dealing with this now. I felt like a freak for a long time trying to supress the CDing urges. I thought I was the only one too.

[Annie D]

Being a war baby, I grew up during the "Happy Days" time when there were not any gays or lesbians anywhere around. Because of the general public acceptance of recent times and the more publicity in the newspapers and the internet, we really don't care if someone is gay or a lesbian. I even believe that someone who has undergone a sex change is by and large accepted. Perhaps it is my perception of myself that is holding me back but I can only hope that in my lifetime crossdressers will be as accepted as our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

[Marleena]

Being a war baby, I grew up during the "Happy Days" time when there were not any gays or lesbians anywhere around. Because of the general public acceptance of recent times and the more publicity in the newspapers and the internet, we really don't care if someone is gay or a lesbian. I even believe that someone who has undergone a sex change is by and large accepted. Perhaps it is my perception of myself that is holding me back but I can only hope that in my lifetime crossdressers will be as accepted as our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

Annie that was another topic I had in mind. Why is is that gay people are more readily accepted? I think part of it is we are more visual since we dress as the opposite sex.

[Gianna]

I agree, society is becoming much more accepting of the spectre of crossdressing not only because of Internet graphic exposure of the lovely possibilities, but also because of access to growing genetic behavior findings.
I find it romantic that so many young persons were exposed to the concept of crossdressing in Disney's Mulan, and could choose to identify early with individuals who could crossdress and still be a hero.

[Piora]

Annie that was another topic I had in mind. Why is is that gay people are more readily accepted? I think part of it is we are more visual since we dress as the opposite sex.
That's exactly the reason. Gays might dress a little more flamboyantly sometimes, but crossdressers come under criticism because they're "dressed in a disguise" and not what they would normally look like (in their opinion, anyway).

[Lorileah]

150 years ago there was the pony express. There were only about 50% of the population now. Most men only lived to about 40 years old and were in an agrarian business that required 10-14 hours a day. So even if the percentage was the same it was unlikely it was open.

The 1920's brought about a movement away from farming and more urban living. The economy was up and there was more disposable income. Things like clothing were more available and women had started wearing make up. Social activities were more common and parties that either allowed or required cross dressing increased and entertainment involving crossdressing (drag) became popular. More media attention then.

The 30's brought the depression and an increase in "morality". Once again time was short for personal things and entertainment was more movies. Crossdressing was in that venue but often was seen as a cartoonish act. I am sure it was still going on just less noticeable (IN fact reports of movie people and political figures who indulged are common then). The 40's you were more worried about staying alive and not getting shot (also read that IF you crossdressed you were considered gay and unfit to be patriotic). The 50's brought a new morality again.

The 60's were revolutionary. Then is when we start to see more CD's. This was still associated with Gay liberation and the fact that women were getting more "rights" so dressing as a woman was not as bad in many people's minds. Movies, films, Television all made it more "public" but it was still considered a perversion and thus most still hid.

The 70's? The clothing was more androgynous and dressing wasn't a huge issue. Men could wear bright colors and more feminine clothing and still be "normal". Even make up and long hair were "In" so the need to dress could be met in stealth in public with types of material and colors and the need to wear "women's things" was still kept in private. Gay was OK.

Then the internet. The 80's saw more "coming out" but they were still the subculture that was associated with sexual things and that is what you commonly saw (especially with the 15 minute download of the *******). But now we could see we were not alone and that we were not deviants (ok a little). Continue and we are where we are. You can connect instantly with anyone around the world. You can find people who are like you are. You can see that you are not alone. However, this is one of very few sites that still does not push the sexual aspect.

So the answer is, there probably are not a higher percentage of "us". But we know where to meet ;)


Addendum: because I didn't go through all the posts first. Gays are more acceptable because they worked to be accepted. We don't. Consider the number even here who are in the closet and still think they are perverts or mentally ill. We can "hide" in plain sight. We can marry, have jobs, go anywhere because we can dress like the population and blend in. Gays had to do this for years. Many even had a "beard" which was a female they married (or dated) so that they could go out. They kept it on the down low. Then Stonewall (as a major turning point but there were others) and they said "Enough!" They took the TG community under their wing and carried us for 30 years but we didn't do anything to advance the cause. Now they don't need to carry us. They have worked for their acceptance. We have not. We like being unseen, we like hiding. We don't even have the courage to tell our own loved ones. We are not accepted as much as teh gay community because we have not worked for it. It is THAT simple.

[wendy360]

The percentages may be the same but I think the internet and the public's acceptance of the transgender community are probably the 2 biggest reasons there appears to be more of us. In the 70's and 80's there were no resources on cross dressing or transgender short of going to a porn shop.
The internet has helped bring people thousands of miles away from each other closer so we don't feel like we're alone.

[suchacutie]

For me the internet made all the difference. Six years ago I dressed for the first time, and if we had not been able to obtain the overwhelming wealth of information about transgenderism that we were able to find, I'm sure Tina would still be in her infancy, or might have just been left on the side of the road. Knowledge is power, in this case the power to be who you really are.

I'm not trying to deny that the genetics might be changing as well as the human race improves biologically (e.g. longer lifetimes), but the ability to gain information has certainly brought transgenderism into the light.

tina

[Ria]

I bet our numbers are growing (population is growing) and the internet has brought awareness and some acceptance to the topic

[IamSara]

Tina had the internet been out there 40 years ago I wouldn't be dealing with this now. I felt like a freak for a long time trying to supress the CDing urges. I thought I was the only one too.
I agree with your statement completely Marleena. I also would not be able to deal with my feelings towards my CD/TG personality without the internet and more importantly this site.
I do believe that as our planet has become more populated there are more of us in the world whether the actual percentage has grown would only be a guess on anyones part. There is far too many of us that will not come out even here on the internet. They are struggling like most of us have done before finding others that we can talk to and relate to.

[sandra-leigh]

Then the internet. The 80's saw more "coming out" but they were still the subculture that was associated with sexual things and that is what you commonly saw (especially with the 15 minute download of the *******).

The Internet was the 1990's. Seriously -- HTTP was demonstrated in fall 1991. The 1980's was dial-up BBS's.


Gays had to do this for years. Many even had a "beard" which was a female they married (or dated) so that they could go out. They kept it on the down low. Then Stonewall (as a major turning point but there were others) and they said "Enough!" They took the TG community under their wing and carried us for 30 years but we didn't do anything to advance the cause.

Stonewall was triggered by the police coming in to arrest crossdressers!

I think it is an oversimplification to say that we didn't do anything to advance the cause in the last 30 years. Those gender equality laws did not come about because the GLB thought it would be a nice xmas present for us. The upcoming DSM changes are not going quietly unremarked.

[KellyJameson]

Perhaps the extreme forms of femininity and masculinity are built from our animal natures of sex and survival through aggression but being human is not only about our animal nature but our human spirit that seeks more than just mere survival and reproduction but meaning and purpose.

The greater the distance from living in a state of automatic survival reflex to a being that transcends the death instinct and experiences connectivity to all things ( Love ) the less they live as pure female or male. We live with two minds, one animal and one spirit, both capable of doing good or causing harm.

You see the tension in the world between dualism and nondualism, the female and male in separate bodies or both within one body regardless of biology. Our minds (spirit) want to break free from the constraints and limitations imposed on us by the physical realities of the world we live in.

Being on the LGBT spectrum may be about spiritual evolution which is accelerating at an alarming rate evidenced by the nature of violence along matters of religion throughout the world due to rising tensions caused by dualism/nondualism

Plus I really like how I look in a skirt and heels. Have a Wonderful New year !

[Mikaela]

I think you need to challenge that assumption that this is genetic. We 'want' it to be so we have something beyond our control to point to and say "it is my nature".

And trying to correlate data over a period of time in which data gathering was not being done is like proving that the loss of pirates is causing global warming.

[Marleena]

Mikaela I wish it was that easy to explain away. There has been some scientific research to that end. Here is just one link, there are many more studies done out there. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7689007.stm

and here: http://www.transgenderlondon.com/What%20Causes%20It.htm

I wish I could explain away my GID. It's not fetish or for erotic reasons for me.:)

[Mikaela]

I never said it wasn't biological or that you were manifesting a fetish. But biology and genetics are not mutually inclusive. Your article even says that this isn't a gene that causes transsexualism (although the title seems otherwise), it is a gene that reduces testosterone action and there's a high correlation in transsexuals. Correlation is not causation (it could be, but not guaranteed)

[Marleena]

I never said it wasn't biological or that you were manifesting a fetish. But biology and genetics are not mutually inclusive. Your article even says that this isn't a gene that causes transsexualism (although the title seems otherwise), it is a gene that reduces testosterone action and there's a high correlation in transsexuals. Correlation is not causation (it could be, but not guaranteed)

Somebody will figure it out some day. I just know what it isn't in my own instance.

[kimdl93]

I'd go with assumption that the proportions are similar now as in the past.

[jillleanne]

There are various studies about identfying just that. How accurate are they? Subjective I'm sure. As evolution continues, I suspect like all species, we will adapt according to enviromental needs. If a breed needs more young to sustain the breed, more females will be born. If too many of one species exist, less females will be born and so too it goes with the species' predators. It's all linked. It is estimated recently approximately 3% of the US population is gender enhanced, or, tg. No one knows for sure primarily because of the proverbial closet so many stay in all their lives. I would not want to be the one who has to try to come up with some sort of accuracy as to the increase/decrease of tg people as a whole.

[Meg East]

My guess is there are less latent cd out there, more of us are participating in the online community.

[Karren H]

It's really a subversive alien virus spread through the internet that turns men into submissive women... When they launch their attack we'll be defenseless because they know we won't fight back if there's a chance we'll get a run in our nylons of chip a nail!! Lol. Little do the realize how much damage a large handbag or a stiletto heel can do! :D

[Marleena]

It's really a subversive alien virus spread through the internet that turns men into submissive women... When they launch their attack we'll be defenseless because they know we won't fight back if there's a chance we'll get a run in our nylons of chip a nail!! Lol. Little do the realize how much damage a large handbag or a stiletto heel can do! :D

Lol...not mention what we'll do once that probe comes out, they'll get their eyes clawed out with my fake nails! They have no idea who they're dealing with!:)

[Foxglove]

It's really a subversive alien virus spread through the internet that turns men into submissive women... When they launch their attack we'll be defenseless because they know we won't fight back if there's a chance we'll get a run in our nylons of chip a nail!! Lol. Little do the realize how much damage a large handbag or a stiletto heel can do! :D

Not to mention a hockey stick or a puck in the teeth.

It would be very difficult to say whether our numbers are increasing, simply because it's so hard to gather data. But we are here now, we've always been around, we'll always be around. We are invincible (he said, shaking his fist at the heavens)!

[Marleena]

Okay, so we finally have an answer! I think all of us girls should get together and go to Area 51 and tie the aliens to poles. Then Karren can can take slapshots at them! That'll show the little buggers!:)

[Marilyn Beck]

I'm sure nobody has the answer but this crosses my mind quite often. We read being TG is a genetic and biological condition. It's also documented to be centuries old. Are we growing in number or is just that there is more awareness due to the internet and other media?

As I understand it, the question addresses the number or percentage of people who identify as "being TG" and not necessarily the number or percentage who engage in the behavior of crossdressing.

For as long as I can remember, I have wanted to dress and be treated as a female, which I think makes me TG. However, during most of my 55 years I did not actually crossdress or disclose my TG condition to anyone. Only in the last few years have I come out to my wife, acquired women's clothes and crossdressed on a regular basis. I think there are many others on this forum that have a similar history. In my case (and I believe for many others), the internet has been a huge factor in my recent crossdressing activity. Not only has the internet enabled me to privately gather information that has increased my awareness and personal acceptance of crossdressing, it has enabled me to discreetly acquire clothing and accessories by shopping online. Another factor that has led to my increased crossdressing is aging. Due to my daughters growing up and moving away, coupled with my recent (semi) retirement, I now have much more private time to crossdress. I think there are many other "baby boomers" on this forum that similarly have increased opportunities to crossdress.

In summary, I believe there has been a substantial increase in crossdressing behavior in recent years caused by the internet (which has increased awareness, acceptance and shopping opportunities) and demographics (more empty nest baby boomers with free time). But I am not aware of any evidence indicating that the number or percentage of people who identify as TG has increased.

[Marleena]

Good points Marilyn! I think the numbers are much higher than we know, too. Many people stay hidden out of fear and rejection.

[Karren H]

Okay, so we finally have an answer! I think all of us girls should get together and go to Area 51 and tie the aliens to poles. Then Karren can can take slapshots at them! That'll show the little buggers!:)

And dress them up like female aliens!!

[BillieJoEllen]

The internet definitely opened up a wealth of information for us. I had been dressing for 11 years before seeing my first publication concerning CDing. It was pretty much kept a BIG SECRET from most everyone else and it was against the law when I was growing up. Pretty much everyone that did hear of anyone CDing put those people down and very much derided them. Times have changed. I've mixed feelings about that because I loved the varieties of clothes that I grew up with as compared to today but on the other hand I would have liked the freedom and access to knowledge that we now enjoy today.

[Foxglove]

And dress them up like female aliens!!

E.T., the Sequel: Petticoat Discipline. Buy it on DVD!

[Miranda-E]

The Internet was the 1990's. Seriously -- HTTP was demonstrated in fall 1991. The 1980's was dial-up BBS's.




the Web was 1990's but the web was NOT the begining internet. usenet, shell accounts, e-mail, VT-100 E's, unix, door gateways, search engines, all alive and well long before the 1990s

[Acastina]

It's really a subversive alien virus spread through the internet that turns men into submissive women... When they launch their attack we'll be defenseless because they know we won't fight back if there's a chance we'll get a run in our nylons of chip a nail!! Lol. Little do the realize how much damage a large handbag or a stiletto heel can do! :D

The New York Times has Gail Collins; CD.com has Karren Hutton. Obviously, CD.com got to choose first. Karren, was Rodney Dangerfield your uncle?

On topic: I felt compelled to start learning about CD in the late 60s and really got into it a decade later, applying the skills of a graduate degree to my intense need to know more. My take would be that the percentages are probably fairly stable, but societal acceptance and reinforcement varies greatly in different eras and cultures.

This follows from my belief that the theories of prenatal brain development anomalies (due to mis-timed or mis-dosed hormonal infusions from Mom) are probably as predictive as left-handedness (which I think is a great analogy) or red hair in terms of incidence over time in any given population. It may be "genetic" that one's mom has defectively produced the chemicals necessary for decisive sex differentiation, but the imperfect, ambiguous differentiation that is us is not in itself genetic; it's developmental.

The fact that there are Biblical references and rules, plus all the Joan of Arcs and Chevalier D'Eons scattered through history, shows us that this is nothing new. How we're able to respond to it, is different now.

In other words, the phenomena occur regularly, but visibility varies. With the big help of the Internet, we're probably living in some of the best of times for folks like us, at least in Western cultures not overly influenced by fundamentalist religious fervor, which always seems to go after the behavioral strays as pawns in the enforcement of conformity.