Job applications:What should I check, Male or Female?

[GirlieAmanda]

I am in the process of finding a job in the new area I moved to to start over fresh and live as a female full time. I have gone through the therapy and am continuing, have begun hormone therapy and it's going well. I have a place to live and support. I have gotten a carry letter and a full blessing by my therapist that in her opinion I would be successful. I will be changing my name legally on Feb. 9 and all docs that are allowed. I have a successful presentation an good voice. I have been living as a female although an unemployed female which is somewhat easier. I feel I am ready. I had a plan. The burning question is should I A: Attempt to be just a female and just apply as a female and mark female on my applications, or B: Reveal that I am trans and mark male. My ID will have my new name and pic as well as an F for my gender. In PA this is allowed. I will be working in SC though and hope this is not going to be a problem. I hate to think I went through all of the changing of the gender marker only for it to be revoked when I am forced to get a SC license.

I worry that if I don't reveal to employers I am trans then they find out later will that constitute lying. If I reveal then maybe they don't even bother and it eliminates me from the running. It's a real tough issue.

[Katesback]

I hate to say this but if you have yet to change your name...........good luck. I mean that is a pivitol point of transition and without that name change its really hard to find anyone that will take you seriously especially for a job. I mean we have to be real here. Try to put yourself in the employers shoes. I mean at the very least they are going to think your a crossdresser. Your NOT obligated to tell anyone your trans and I firmly belive that people should NOT tell anyone at work about being trans (forever keep your mouth shut!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) but crap your identifications are NOT going to match and they HAVE to see your ID if they hire you.

Im sorry but I think your better off trying to find a job as a boy till you get your name changed.


Katie

[DanaR]

Wouldn't you chose the gender on the application that would match the gender of how you are going to present, for the job you are applying for?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

You are male...regardless of the fact we all know you are sincere and honest, the employer will look at you as a liar...

You need to change your name legally, and also you need to know state law...your gender may not change simply because of your name....

You can't mess around...you are between the rock and hard place...sorry..if u r transitioning, then get the name change...ifu r desperate for cash and need to work, your choices are tout yourself and hope to get really lucky, or work as male unti the name and gender change happen..there are always exceptions...so don't give up hope..it's tough

[GirlieAmanda]

My name and ID will be changed on Feb. 9. Court date set. I will apply after that point. Again M or F? Reveal or no?

[Nicole Erin]

Once you get your name changed to whatever female name you are choosing, then just check F, if it even asks.
If you have a distinctly male name then checking F wo9uld be awkward...

Also - one thing about the name change and all - the one people associate with you first is the one that sticks.
If they know you first as John, it is gonna be a constant battle getting people to call you Jane at some later point.
Get the name change, soc security card changed, THEN start applying for jobs.

And with checking F even though you might still be physically and legally male, well except on legal stuff like say your driver's, no real harm should come. Even if, IF it comes up, you can bullshit your way around it. Say it is a typo or whatever. With certain laws, most employers are NOT gonna ask about your gender like, "I noticed you checked F when your ID says M. Are you a tranny?" Nope, probably won't happen.

On another note about that - people at my job know my business. Of course they don't know what is in my pants but they pretty much know I am TS. They don't razz me about it. I did have a brief discussion with my immediate supervisor about it a couple weeks back, I knew that she knew cause of background checks etc and her words were basically, "If someone is cut out for the job, this is business and I would not want people discriminating against me cause of my race or age etc..."

So, once name changed, it is F.

[Hope]

My name and ID will be changed on Feb. 9. Court date set. I will apply after that point. Again M or F? Reveal or no?

If your ID says F, and your presentation says F... then that is what you should mark on the application. Otherwise, leave the question blank.

Even after you have your name legally changed, you will still be outed any time you apply for a job and a future employer does a background check on you or runs your credit. Welcome to life in the 21st century. That just means that you have to be selective with the places you are looking for work, and that you have to be better than every one else.

If you are filling out applications, I will assume you are not applying for positions as executive VPs, but for more simple work. I can vouch for Macy's. They hired me with my boy name, and my more or less boy presentation, and outing myself on my cover letter. When I went to talk with HR about transitioning (more) the conversation started with my HR manager saying "I just wanted to have you come in so we could make sure that we are doing everything we can to make sure you feel comfortable and supported." Seriously, if you are not looking for a particularly skilled position, you can do a LOT worse than Macy's.

[Miranda-E]

put the gender that's current on your SS administration info on the application, you don't want your employer getting a SS# gender mismatch letter after you fill out an I9 and W4.

[Starling]

I thought SS no longer reported a gender-mismatch to the employer.

:) Lallie

[Felicity71]

Put female down. Ya never know it just might work.

[GirlieAmanda]

I thought SS no longer reported a gender-mismatch to the employer.

:) Lallie

Yes the SSN specifically did away with the gender no match letters because of efforts of trans people. I believe it was in 2011.

[Badtranny]

Oh Amanda, so many brave and committed steps forward only to be stymied by the damn M.

I'm going to disagree (partially) with the prevailing wisdom in the thread so far (can you imagine?) and just say believe in yourself and follow your instincts.

This is one of those situations where what you "should" do may very well conflict with what you "need" to do. Kaitlyn and "the voice of experience" are absolutely right, but you didn't get to where you are by being timid and neither did they,

I'm a firm believer in our ability to make things happen if we have a clear outcome in our minds and we remain fearless. You can bend all sorts of rules and create so many opportunities just by the force of your personality. You are in a situation where you can wait quietly for the gender marker to change, or you can continue to make bold steps towards your new reality. The only thing that is absolutely necessary here is that you BELIEVE that you are doing the right thing.

Waiting and getting the paperwork straight is the prudent thing to do, no question. There's really no harm in waiting either except for one thing; Do you want to wait? Does waiting make you more fearful than not? We all have different triggers and different levels of anxiety so we need to do what is comfortable and feels natural for our unique situation. If you can be bold and fearless and confident and you're not really stressed about it, then go forth and conquer. However, if you are experiencing some palpable anxiety over the gender marker or name change and feel a sense of security and calm by waiting, then by all means wait it out and catch your breath, you've already done so much.

In my transition so far I've made some very bold moves that probably weren't "right" but they worked out because it felt right to me and I was able to sell it. There are other things that I have yet to do that would seem silly to wait for, but I'm not feeling it so I don't think I can pull it off yet. And that's the key isn't it? Can you pull it off? If you have a clear vision of what needs to happen, then you're probably good to go, if not then call in some support. In this case your support is the documents. The trick is to keep your confidence up, and if the documents give you confidence than so be it.

You are fierce, lady. Do what you feel, but move with conviction.

[Michelle.M]

I'm job hunting and I put F on my applications. It helps that my ID (with gender marker) will be changed in less than a month, but even a couple of months ago I was putting F. I am also applying to companies that have a strong diversity stance so if the subject had come up (I don't think it will after this month) I'd cross that bridge when I came to it.

[SandraAbsent]

#1 A signed job application is a legal document, so you are required by law to "sign" this document using your legal name. Also, a resume is not a legal document. This is why even after sending a resume to a company they require you to complete an application prior to interviewing.
#2 You are not legally obligated to indicate your gender on a job application and requiring such is illegal.
#3 Until your name and gender markers are changed, your legal information is required on the forms such as I9, W2, and your state tax forms.

I have been going through this myself as I am seeking new employment. I am out at work but I simply dont like my job lol.

With that being said there is no possible way to apply for and recieve a job without outing yourself. This does not mean that you wont get hired. People Hire People Plain and Simple. I have been a hiring manager most of my adult life and hire people that have the qualifications I am looking for and impress me with their confidence and presentation. I know that I am no where near alone in this sentiment. My tip would be dont waist a job opportunity, apply for it and interview for it because it may not be there February 9th. One reason being that you have been unemployed for a while and need to build up and brush up your interviewing skills. The other being that this will gain you valuable confidence while waiting for February 9th. Dont offer any information about being trans that you dont feel comfortable with and good luck!

[Sally24]

What would be the point of getting an F on your ID if you put down male? If you get your name change and ID done before, then you are a woman. Employers can't even legally ask if your married or single. If need be you can talk to HR after you start work. Don't sabotage yourself before you even get started. I would also check out the HRCs list of trans friendly companies.

http://www.hrc.org/resources/entry/corporate-equality-index-2011

[Kaitlyn Michele]

bottom line?

your call!!! just like this whole thing we all do..

[Katesback]

It all boils down to how good a presentation you put on. If someone is early in transition they probably have a TON of telltale signs while those who are further along have hopefully less sighns. The most inportant thing trans people need to learn is to keep thier mouth shut at work forever. Dont ever discuss your trans stuff, Dont admit to it if confronted, just be strong and keep the trans discussion for your friends outside of work because your employer does not want to hear about it.

[LeaP]

Sandra is absolutely correct about the application's legal status. When you sign it you are certifying its accuracy. While you do not have to indicate gender, not everyone's forms provide for declining to provide it. You may run into an electronic application that only allows you to select M or F, and you'll have to ask for a paper application.

Do not provide incorrect (from a legal standpoint) information. It's grounds for dismissal at all companies and it's all the excuse some people need.

Lea

[Julia_in_Pa]

Being in South Carolina I understand your fears and concerns.

If your identification documents do not match your gender presentation then yes your employer will find our rather quickly.

In states that allow drivers license gender marker correction with or without surgery this is much easier.

The Social Security Administration has passed a few months ago a ruling that they will not report gender mismatches back to employers due to this specific reason.

In your case one way around this is to obtain drivers license from a state that allows marker changes like Pennsylvania then obtain your U.S. passport since they now offer gender marker correction based on rules passed within the last few years concerning travel safety for trans people.

Once you have obtained these two documents you then possess the keys to the kingdom.

The reason why this is is because most states that do not allow gender marker changes on drivers license's will accept a valid unexpired U.S. passport as one of the two items required by that state for identification.

Thee other item is your unexpired drivers license IE Pennsylvania.

You simply walk in with your correct gender ID driver licenase and your corrected U.S. passport and you can obtain your South Carolina drivers license with the correct gender designation which of course is "F".

This has worked many times before and as long as all states accept a U.S. Passport for Identification you my dear sister are gold.

You just have to find a way and means to obtain a drivers license from a state that allows gender marker changes prior to surgery.



Julia

[Kaitlyn Michele]

sorry to post so much..but in my business career, i learned that a key to success is knowing your risks, the costs of the risks, and the benefits of taking those risks..

what type of work are you looking for?
are you sure your female presentation is up to snuff? frankly if i see another ts or cd with purple sparkle nail polish say they have better fashion sense than a gg, i'll puke
dressing for interviews is SPECIFICALLY geared towards NOT being noticed...
what are the SPECIFIC laws in YOUR state regarding gender?
will they check your name or do a background check??
Is your name change public record in your state?
etcetcetc...

if the job is a crap job, just to get $$, you may be much less at risk...getting fired from 7/11 is not gonna go on your record...but if there a company with any meaningful contacts in your line of work, one screw up and you are done for good...

and if the job is any good, its a competition...when i had 10 applicants for 1 job, the first meeting was about crossing people off the list...and even progressive people may be wary of "issues" in hiring a ts person

transition is long tough slog...plan it out right...if you need to get farther down the path before you get a good job, then perhaps you have to wait a bit...for example ...electrolysis...how are you gonna get those treatments (maybe you are lucky and don't need much) while working? especially if you are trying to blend in as a woman from day one..."oh that 6 days of stubble on my chin? that's nothing dear"...and then the next day its blotchy and red...

not trying to scare you...you can do this...but be smart and looking through this thread there is tons of great thoughts..

one more thought..is there anyone close to you that can be brutally honest about your presentation?? finding out now is better than finding it out later..

[Katesback]

Thats a good plan Julie but as I stressed one has to realize that talking to ANYONE EVER about your status at work is just asking for problems.









Being in South Carolina I understand your fears and concerns.

If your identification documents do not match your gender presentation then yes your employer will find our rather quickly.

In states that allow drivers license gender marker correction with or without surgery this is much easier.

The Social Security Administration has passed a few months ago a ruling that they will not report gender mismatches back to employers due to this specific reason.

In your case one way around this is to obtain drivers license from a state that allows marker changes like Pennsylvania then obtain your U.S. passport since they now offer gender marker correction based on rules passed within the last few years concerning travel safety for trans people.

Once you have obtained these two documents you then possess the keys to the kingdom.

The reason why this is is because most states that do not allow gender marker changes on drivers license's will accept a valid unexpired U.S. passport as one of the two items required by that state for identification.

Thee other item is your unexpired drivers license IE Pennsylvania.

You simply walk in with your correct gender ID driver licenase and your corrected U.S. passport and you can obtain your South Carolina drivers license with the correct gender designation which of course is "F".

This has worked many times before and as long as all states accept a U.S. Passport for Identification you my dear sister are gold.

You just have to find a way and means to obtain a drivers license from a state that allows gender marker changes prior to surgery.



Julia

[RenneB]

Also in the just hunting field, but for this post, I'm going to side with Sandra as the information is voluntary. Usually, it's on a separate form that goes to HR for statistical purposes. You don't have to fill it out. So I'm going to say that if you are presented with an old style job application, just skip it....

Renne.....

[Empress Lainie]

After I got my dl changed to F and was living as the woman I am; I applied for Census work. I checked the F. I was hired twice by them, and no one there knew I was not a gg. I later applied where I now work as F 2 yrs ago. Only 2people there know I am not gg.

What is this crap about PURPLE NAIL POLISH WITH SPARKLES! I have worn it for two years and get nothing but compliments on it and what kind is it, where did you get it etc. I even have had my thumbnails only with orange polish and sparkles. Sally Hansen: purple potion and strobe light. orange is sunrise, sunset. I have occasionally used lacey lilac on all my nails too, but the dark color looks better with the Strobe Light. Her Diamonds is nice too; it was the first sparkle I used.

Oh yeah, Kaitlyn, my gg friend of 22 yrs asks ME about fashion and colors. We go clothes shopping together.

[Badtranny]

and if the job is any good, its a competition...when i had 10 applicants for 1 job, the first meeting was about crossing people off the list...and even progressive people may be wary of "issues" in hiring a ts person

omg that is SO true and also why it's SO important that you be spectacular in your presentation.

If you were sitting in my office, I would WANT to overlook your TS status. But I would not be able to unless you were spectacular. Why? Well first of all, everyone knows what I am and I wouldn't want anyone to think I was giving you extra credit for being on my team. Second, even if I wasn't openly transitioning, my judgement would be in question if you were just mediocre or worse. My people are a direct reflection of me and a poor performer needs to be dealt with before my bosses deal with it, because then they'll deal with me. :-(

Though it seems like this post is a direct contradiction to my earlier one, it is not. Kaitlyn brought up a good point and I wanted to underline it yet remind you that anything is possible if you can conceive it. If you decide to go for it now, then go in with the attitude that you feel sorry for the poor broads that have to come in after you, and then kill it. I can tell by your smile that you're a charmer and let me tell you something, if charm can make Bernie Madoff a gazillionaire, then it can sure as hell get you a job. ;-)

[Badtranny]

Oh yeah, Kaitlyn, my gg friend of 22 yrs asks ME about fashion and colors. We go clothes shopping together.

Well then Lainie you're obviously not one of the people Kait was talking about. :-)

You have to admit some people (CD & TS) say some pretty bizarre things around here.

[Julia_in_Pa]

We as a group must find as many loop holes as possible

Thanks Kate.


Thats a good plan Julie but as I stressed one has to realize that talking to ANYONE EVER about your status at work is just asking for problems.

[Miranda-E]

I wasn't aware they changed the policy so recently.
Changing the SS info is pretty easy with other documents in hand. skipping that step could cause a lot issues in the past.

[Empress Lainie]

I thought I had answered this but I guess it was a similar question in another site. After I got my marker and name changed I only used F. I was hired twice by US gov as a census worker, and no one knew I was trans. After that 2 yrs ago I was hired where I now work, and put F. Only 2 people where I work know I'm trans and they don't talk. I think sometimes they forget about it anyway.

Since the ID is F, I see no reason to put otherwise. SS medicare is the only place left I have an M. If you aren't on medicare, ss never asked for gender anyway.

Since my fingerprints which were taken for both the Census and my present job as I have a gaming license are actually in the data base under my old name and my new name I guess they don't really check it. Probably just file and forget.

SS was adamant about not changing without a doctor's letter of irreversible surgery of some type; but there is one person posting who says they changed gender at her request. We should all be so lucky; as I was at NV DMV; now you have to have a form filled out, but only require that you are living female and are trans.

[GirlieAmanda]

This is very helpful. I AM going to do it. Sink or swim. After Feb. 9th I will obtain as many docs as possible including passport if I can afford it. SS will be changed, banking, credit cards, etc. I will then feel so much better than before. I absolutely LOATHE showing my guy ID. It is so far from how I look now. Plus it was a weird pic that made me look even worse. I just cringe when I have to show it even though it has been absolutely no problem with anyone. Its just NOT me. A new ID, to me, will help me feel more correct and more legit in this legal, post-9/11 world. I will have to figure out things like continuing electrolysis (third full clearing coming up soon) and doc appts. but, I do have a clear vision and it is very strong. I can visualize me at work. As scary as it sounds, I can see it. I have been told that I have a very good to excellent presentation. I act strongly female. I am 5'10" which is in the range of a normal taller girl. I am fashionable, apparently desirable, and well spoken. This is why both therapists I have seen are convinced that I will do well. While I will be edgy for a while when I gain a job about people thinking possible trans things, I will try to just be myself and keep my head up and be great! That is the plan.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

you sure look great in the picture...your drive and desire will serve you well..if there is a setback, there is no doubt you will soldier through...despite my comments, it's not always a problem...but managing the possible problems is really important..

don't trust your therapist to be honest..they will and should pump up your confidence..

[Hope]

The court order enables you to change the name on your credit cards.


This is an important point - the court order does not allow you to change your name on your ID and your other documents / accounts... it requires that you do so. Anyplace you have to use your legal name (ID, CC, etc.) you must use the new name... the old name is no longer you.



SS was adamant about not changing without a doctor's letter of irreversible surgery of some type; but there is one person posting who says they changed gender at her request.

That was me. Proof positive that it never hurts to ask (or present yourself well)! I just got incredibly lucky... I am still in a bit of disbelief.

[Aprilrain]

I was seeing a shrink at a hospital (of sorts). I first saw him prior to my name and gender marker change so obviously all my info was male. Then next time I went back I changed everything. The time after that when I was checking in the woman handed me a sheet of paper and asked me to make sure all my info was correct, it still said M for some reason. Instead of "explaining" the situation I simply said "oh look at that it says male for some reason??" she took the sheet back looked at it and said "huh? That's weird, let me fix that"
Priceless!

[Jennifer Marie P.]

After you get your name and gender changed you can put female.Before that you are legally still a male.

[elizabethamy]

I'm on the job market and it occurred to me that I could double my chances if I applied under both genders.

[Aprilrain]

I'm on the job market and it occurred to me that I could double my chances if I applied under both genders.

double your chances of not getting a job that is!

[Sally24]

I absolutely LOATHE showing my guy ID. It is so far from how I look now. Plus it was a weird pic that made me look even worse. I just cringe when I have to show it even though it has been absolutely no problem with anyone. Its just NOT me.
You could in the short term just get a new picture taken! Then it would look like you present now. Good luck with all the paperwork.

[Traci Elizabeth]

Yes the SSN specifically did away with the gender no match letters because of efforts of trans people. I believe it was in 2011.

You better confirm this BECAUSE when I got my driver's license in 2011, the first thing they did while I was standing there was to go live online with the SSA. The clerk showed me the screen and it specifically stated Name and Gender Correct Match. (Thank goodness, I had my SSA info changed PRIOR to getting my license which was also a state requirement.

What part of SC are you in?

If your legal documents show a female name and the sex as FEMALE then you should check FEMALE on your employment application. Why? Because you are a female.

[kimdl93]

It seems to me that once you're name and id are legally changed, there is no reason you wouldn't mark "F" and present as such. You're not lying. By everything you've described, you are living as a female and have the documentation to prove it, regardless of birth gender. As for the SC drivers license, I would presume that its a paper transaction when you relocate. So, if your PA license says F, then your SC license will be the same.

BTW, Amanda, congratulations!

[Michelle.M]

. . . when I got my driver's license in 2011, the first thing they did while I was standing there was to go live online with the SSA. The clerk showed me the screen and it specifically stated Name and Gender Correct Match.

The Social Security Administration definitely no longer reports gender mismatch to employers, but it never occurred to me that this might still be a requirement for state driver licensing. Thanks for the tip!

[GirlieAmanda]

The Social Security Administration definitely no longer reports gender mismatch to employers, but it never occurred to me that this might still be a requirement for state driver licensing. Thanks for the tip!

This is no issue to me because there is a specific document made for the change of gender marker on licenses in Pennsylvania. Through the efforts of groups like TransCentral PA, this was made possible and I think will be a model for the rest of the country. I will have my court order and that gender marker doc signed by my therapist in hand when I go to the DMV the same day as my name change order is final. I will then change my name on SS and of course get a passport and ask if I can have an F on it like Hope does.

I will definitely be marking F on all things from Feb. 9th on with the probable exception of health insurance things. Not sure about the procedure on health care because biologically I will be a male until SRS. Still fuzzy on that.