Curious about FTM incidence (OK, not a great thread title!)

[Kate T]

Hello

I'm a little bit of an interloper in that I'm a MTF CDer. I was just thinking about the whole you know gender, sex, sexuality blah blah thing and was wanting to ask a question.

Based on posts and forums on this website there appears to be a significant mismatch in numbers of MTF versus FTM transgendered individuals, i.e. there are significantly more MTF, even if you just count those who identify as MTF transexual.

Is this true though. Are these boards a true reflection of those incidences? If it is true (which I suspect it may be) then has anyone pondered a reason? I mean in the absence of a causative agent that males are preferentially exposed to (or only affects males) then the incidence of MTF vs FTM transexuals at least should be roughly similar.

I haven't posted much on this particular forum so if I have offended anyone then I apologise but this seemed like the logical place to come to ask the question.

Thankyou

[sandra-leigh]

There are studies, and there are estimates, and there are other studies, and there are other estimates... and the numbers are all over the place.

I have seen figures as low as 1/1000 of the MTF, and I have seen figures as high as a bit higher than the MTF.

Anecdote time, then:

In my social circles and "around" (grocery shopping, waiting for the bus, etc.), I encounter MTF in higher numbers than the average person would be likely to expect would exist in the city. I also encounter a small number of FTM... or at least ones that I recognize. But I know my FTM friend routinely encounters a number of FTM that (as far as I know) I have never seen.

The apparent situation changes when I go to my appointments at the gender clinic: it is not uncommon for me to meet FTM there whom I have never seen before (that I know of). That in itself is suggestive that the ratios that I tend to encounter (or at least think I do) are not accurate.

But then my mental estimates of the number of FTM in the city get completely overtaken when-ever I attend a trans health seminar, or attend Transgender Day of Remembrance: in both those situations, the FTM attendees quite visibly outnumber the MTF attendees. Estimates based on those events would suggest that the city has (hand-waving) half again or more FTM than MTF.

About the only firm conclusion to be drawn from my anecdotes are that the FTM numbers are probably considerably higher than a MTF would likely be aware of. A quite reasonable hypothesis that could be drawn would be that FTM might have their own resources and social circles that might not come to the attention of most MTF.

[mistunderstood]

When I joined this forum there were very few of us here. Part of the problem was because there was only a hand full of web pages or articles about FTM's. All the info was for MTF. I spent 3 years researching for info the best I could find was I was either a butch or diesel dike. Not to be rude or mean about it. When I found the info it just did not fit for me. Five years ago I found the Harry Benjamin's guide for care of MTF and in a separate article on the page I found out about FTM's. We tend to blend in better because we can wear men's clothing and most people do not care now I do not want to start the whole we have it better than any one else stuff. Most guy's just want to fit in.
Hope this answers your question. Do not worry about your question. It was fine. We do not mine questions as long as the person is really serious about it. I think the more we learn about other people the better it helps keep us all connected as a group.

[AllieSF]

I believe that there is a distinct and large difference in the number of MtF CD's to FtM CD's. One reason I think that I read here and which matches what I have seen in the San Francisco area is that there are probably more FtM TS's vs. FtM CD's. Maybe because males tend to fantasize, or enjoy, or for whatever reason, soft, satiny and sexy women's clothing while for women, it is not the male clothing, but rather that they are males in a female body. I would love to hear from our transmen brothers here to see if I am anywhere near correct in my opinion. Thanks for asking.

[mistunderstood]

You are correct for me any ways Allie it is not the clothes but what I feel inside. I have never felt female even when puberty hit. I thought I was punished when it hit. Part of the time I feel totally male rest of time I feel like a gay male. I have discovered I am Bi-sexual in this journey of mine.

[Launa]

Just thinking about the mis matches here. I think your right that there are more MTF ts' than FTM ts's and I'm not sure why either but if your strictly talking about CD's then the number would be skewed for sure as it is a hell of a lot easier to be a woman and dress like a guy. Just go to your nearest Wall Mart and see if you can spot women wearing man like jeans, sweatshirts, no makeup and cropped boy haircuts. I think you will at least see 1 person there like that. So why would they ever need to be on a website like this one to discuss things unless they were going all the way to transition. If I could go out to Wall Mart dressed like a girl and nobody even looked twice at me then I would have no need to come to this website.
Just my thoughts.

[mistunderstood]

Please do not start the we have it easier routine. Nobody has it better than the other. We both have to struggle to be who we our-selves. If this thread goes down that road I will lock it. Every one needs to quit thinking the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.

[Kate T]

Please do not start the we have it easier routine. Nobody has it better than the other. We both have to struggle to be who we our-selves. If this thread goes down that road I will lock it. Every one needs to quit thinking the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.

Agreed. I specifically DO NOT wish it to become grass is greener, woe is my life, etc. EVERYONE who identifies has transgendered, be they GG or GM, faces the same emotional issues and prejudices about being accepted for who they are.

Thankyou

[Kaz]

Hi Adina,

Great question... this is area is not well researched... there are a lot more declared MtFs but that is about declaration, not actuality. To get to the bottom of this we would need an academic study. Most academics, like me, don't have access to the levels of data that would make a study like this meaningful... unless...

Reine... any thoughts? Could we access the site data to do a meaningful academic study? Or is this already on the cards? I would love to be involved if not lead the study!

Kaz xx

[Sally24]

From my encounters out and about I suspect that FTM are maybe less visible but still very numerous. If I had to guesstimate an amount I would suspect around half as many FTM as MTF. I think finding accurate numbers would be very difficult.

[RachelOKC]

What in interesting question...and I have NO idea other than personal observations.

When I lived in OKC, I found very few FTM's visible in the GLBT community. They tended to not come to even all-inclusive TG organizations and events. I had many friends in the lesbian community in OKC, and while they were generally accepting of MTF TG's, I detected a lot of hostility toward and alienation of people who were FTM identified. Friends of mine who were FTM identified (hadn't transitioned at the time) said that they wouldn't be accepted by their lesbian community. Things may have changed in the decade since, but I haven't lived there since and don't know.

When I moved to the Bay Area, I found that FTM's were VERY visible and active in the LGBT and trans communities. I go to several TG support groups with strong FTM involvement. One is a transgender parents group that's at least 50% FTM, and one is a transition support group offered by my health care provider has been about 75% FTM. FTM's have also been a very large and visible part of the Transgender Marches I've been to, though I wouldn't even try to guess at a percentage.

I would certainly never want to insinuate that FTM's have it easier than MTF's - we all have advantages and disadvantages we each need to be aware of. I've tried to negotiate a parts swap with FTM friends of mine, but we've never been able to work out the technical details. ;)

[mistunderstood]

Unfortunately a lot of groups chase us off. Lesbians tell us we are sell outs and MTF's want to take over. I do not mean to sound angry at any one but that has been talked about a lot in the Club House and been my experience. More FTM's are not CD they are more TS or TG.
I wish it was easy for all of us. If only we had Lee Press on parts then we could all have a swap meet.
I think the real reason we blend in is FTM's kind of have the same look going you know the whole hat,t-shirt,jeans thing. Guy's clothes are pretty subdued un-like girl clothes that are bright and colourful and so many choices. Yes guys have suites but lets be real it usually black,blue or may-by brown. But with that being said it is not really about clothes. The clothes are just the wrapping paper it is about not feeling right in your own skin. It feels like having a Halloween mask you can never take off.

[Kate T]

MTF's want to take over.

What males taking over and telling people what they should be doing and feeling. Surely not! (He says in a voice dripping with sarcasm).

[ReineD]

If it is true (which I suspect it may be) then has anyone pondered a reason? I mean in the absence of a causative agent that males are preferentially exposed to (or only affects males) then the incidence of MTF vs FTM transexuals at least should be roughly similar.

Coincidentally, just tonight I was reading the January 1 issue of the Chronicles of Higher Education, in which are featured several articles on Queer Theory. One article you and Mistunderstood might be particularly interested in is this one:

http://chronicle.com/article/Queer-20/130156/

Although Halberstam doesn't answer your question directly, it is interesting that she identifies as a masculine female. I had a long conversation with a person locally who does the same thing. My friend presents fully as a male in terms of haircut and clothing and she has a male name, but she uses a feminine pronoun (like Halberstam) and she does not want to leave the lesbian community. She accepts herself as a masculine female. I remember one of our past F2M moderators, Ze, was told by a prominent professor in gender studies at his university there are in fact masculine females who celebrate their masculinity and live masculine lives without attempting to mask their birth genders.

Halberstam (in the linked article) says that it makes sense there would be more women who would desire the benefits of masculinity than there are men who would want to be women, since femininity is devalued in our society. Hence, genetic women can be masculine without compromising themselves as much as their genetic male counterparts. This might explain why there are fewer FtMs in this forum than MtFs. They're out there living their lives!

I also wonder if there might not be some truth to AllieSF's opinion there are many MtFs who are in it for the psychological & physical fetish (and who populate forums), whereas there is no fetish aspect for FtMs.

The guys here can answer this for me: is there as much bias in the FtM community, from the transitioning or transitioned male-identified FtMs, towards FtMs like Halberstam (see her picture in the link) who identify as a masculine female, as there is in the MtF community from the TSs towards the CDers? I would guess there would be much more tolerance and friendship among all the FtMs than there is among the MtFs? :)




Reine... any thoughts? Could we access the site data to do a meaningful academic study? Or is this already on the cards? I would love to be involved if not lead the study!

Research is discouraged here. I don't know why, perhaps it is to protect member privacy. We sometimes have academic members join who would like to conduct surveys on separate anonymous sites, but the prevailing thought is, they are meddling in other people's business, or using us for their own gains. It is true that it is difficult to check someone's credentials.

As to the site data, there is no other data than the information we all fill out when we join: birthdate and email. Also, if anyone poured over the individual threads to gather data, they would be hard pressed to differentiate between truthful answers and the fun & fantasy posts (in the MtF section, not in the FtM).

[Kate T]

[QUOTE=ReineD;2712256 They're out there living their lives!
[/QUOTE]

LOL. Oh so true!

I proffer the following excuse for my current flurry of posts. My wife and kids are away at their Nans for a holiday. I'm just bloody lonely!! But they return tonight. Yey for the chaos!

[ReineD]

Sorry, Adina. I didn't mean to sound disparaging. :sad: And when I mentioned the fetish aspect, I didn't mean the MtFs like you who also have a feminine identity.

I rather thought you might be interested in the article.

[angpai30]

Its also easier for a woman to blend in as a man than a man to blend in as a woman. IMO

[mistunderstood]

Yes that is true Kristen because most of us do not want to be noticed. We do not want the spot light. We just want to live in peace. Unfortunately there is a segment of CD'ers who want to do drag. Do not get me wrong I think it is great but that is what society think's that all of you act like that and they run for the hills. I think it is unfair.

[ArleneRaquel]

I just want to blend in as much as possible, no drag for me.

[Kate T]

Sorry, Adina. I didn't mean to sound disparaging. :sad: And when I mentioned the fetish aspect, I didn't mean the MtFs like you who also have a feminine identity.

I rather thought you might be interested in the article.

No offence taken :). To either part.
I haven't read the article (Wife and kids home now, YEY!!. Wrapped up in them a bit) but I will when I get a chance.
Thanks

[Poltergeist]

I can only speak for myself, but I'm sure there are many more people like me:

I can't transition, in my case because of health issues. And I don't pass. I'm invisible. But not in the good way... I am read as female. Yes, I can wear male clothes, I shave my head, but I am NOT read as a man. Even the transmen I've met IRL didn't consider me as one of them. I'm not on T, I can't go on T, and I have the biggest boobs on the planet.

When they made all these statistics, I have a feeling that people like myself weren't counted.

Being invisible isn't so great when what's invisible is your true self. It's not about being noticed for me, but I would like to be seen as what I am - and if that's not possible, then yes, I WOULD like if people could at least read me as trans instead... instead of saying "you're trans?? I never would have guessed, you're so feminine!".