Fetish CDs.....why the stigma, and near hatred?

[Pythos]

I have seen posts here concerning part time or near full time cders not being good for the whole TG envelope. I have seen some rather ugly and hateful comments that also include exclusion of certain people due to the fact they are not full time.

One group that is really Ostrasized is the so called fetish cross dresser. Now for this thread I am going to exclude the hairy panty wearers that you see on Flickr, or the really awful insults to women that some men do when they CD. Also too I am going to exclude those men who's soul reason for cding is to ...jack off in women's underwear.

So the sort of fetish dressers I am going to include are ones that indeed DO derive some sort of sensuous pleasure from the clothing of the opposite sex. But when doing so, they present in a respectable manner.

I have a feeling for some I fit this category. I will not deny the fact I absolutely love the feel of having freshly shaved legs slowly and carefully covered by a pair of pantyhose or tights. I will not say that I do not derive some kind of pleasure from the feel of a tight skirt hugging my body as I dance in my clubs. I will also admit I love the feel of long hair swishing behind me as I walk to the clubs, or with my GF.

There is also the fact that when getting dressed for all intents and purposes I do get turned on. By the thought of my GF watching me get ready.

Now for others I am sure there are similarities as well as differences in how you derive sensuous pleasure from the clothing we so love.

What I would like to know is....why is this so bad? I know of GGs that get off from the squeeze of a corset. I know others that get turned on by the feel of garters and stockings.

The fact is "feminine" clothing IS sensuous. It is soft, or sleek, form fitting, or a combination of all.

I do not understand how the respectable presentation by a so called fetish dresser is a bad thing for the advancement of TG rights. I personally do not see it as such. I think it is us humans experiencing through material sensations that the creator allowed us to have...and then some silly sods said it is a sin to experience.

[suzy1]

I will start off by saying that I ask myself the same question as you Pythos.
I hate prejudice!

But having said that, are there many here that show such hatred? If there are then I have missed most of them.

No matter what we do or how we act in this life, if it’s not hurting anyone then it’s surely O.K.

Anyone tells me that what I do is a sin then the P.M. they will get from me will be X rated!



SUZY

[Kelly DeWinter]

Pythos, I think you have answered some of your own questions.


I have seen posts here concerning part time or near full time cders not being good for the whole TG envelope. I have seen some rather ugly and hateful comments that also include exclusion of certain people due to the fact they are not full time.

Everyone idetifies with certian socal groups and have preconcieved notions about what other's outside of that group should behave like.

One group that is really Ostrasized is the so called fetish cross dresser. Now for this thread I am going to exclude the hairy panty wearers that you see on Flickr, or the really awful insults to women that some men do when they CD. Also too I am going to exclude those men who's soul reason for cding is to ...jack off in women's underwear.

By excluding and including groups you are setting up the thread for a preconcieved opinion (which you have the right to)

So the sort of fetish dressers I am going to include are ones that indeed DO derive some sort of sensuous pleasure from the clothing of the opposite sex. But when doing so, they present in a respectable manner.

I have a feeling for some I fit this category. I will not deny the fact I absolutely love the feel of having freshly shaved legs slowly and carefully covered by a pair of pantyhose or tights. I will not say that I do not derive some kind of pleasure from the feel of a tight skirt hugging my body as I dance in my clubs. I will also admit I love the feel of long hair swishing behind me as I walk to the clubs, or with my GF.

There is also the fact that when getting dressed for all intents and purposes I do get turned on. By the thought of my GF watching me get ready.

Now for others I am sure there are similarities as well as differences in how you derive sensuous pleasure from the clothing we so love.

What I would like to know is....why is this so bad? I know of GGs that get off from the squeeze of a corset. I know others that get turned on by the feel of garters and stockings.

The fact is "feminine" clothing IS sensuous. It is soft, or sleek, form fitting, or a combination of all.

To you and a small group of people it is, Ask most GG's and depending on their age clothing is NOT sensuous (I refer to other posts here).

I do not understand how the respectable presentation by a so called fetish dresser is a bad thing for the advancement of TG rights. I personally do not see it as such. I think it is us humans experiencing through material sensations that the creator allowed us to have...and then some silly sods said it is a sin to experience.

I can't disagree that if you believe in a creator, then it's easy to believe that our senses were created as good. People of faith actually do not disagree with you in that aspect. What they will say is that because of sin what was created in perfection has been corrupted and used for less then perfect purposes.

I for one believe that people are sensual and as long as what two consenting adults do as long as it is legal is OK. I might not personaly agree with it, but I don't have the right to tell someone what to do.

Kelly

[Lucy_Bella]

Well said Pythos,

I myself find the sensation of the opposite sex a turn on ,rather it be with or without them present ( rather them with ) .. I love everything about the opposite sex ,feeling the long soft hair and skin embraced upon my skin right down to how their clothing is designed to reveal their sexual attributes that attracts me to emulate that sensation.

I do not find any type of masculinity attractive, so call me a " perv " if it pleases you. Nothing beats a GG and I have a fetish for the girly girl type right down to the way they dress ,it's is and has been a complete turn on for me..

[Badtranny]

Well you know I dig you Pythos even though we couldn't be more different in our goals. I find you to be generally very clever and insightful and that's pretty much all I care about in forum friends.

I envy your youth and opportunities and I think the only thing we would disagree on is your place on the TG spectrum. We've had a few PM chats and I know you're not TS bound, but I wouldn't call you a fetish CD either. I think you have a public presentation that is very natural for you and it's more of an edgier, authentic look, then the average CD who tries to approximate a woman.

All you need to do now is relax the rigid boundary between your personal and professional lives. Having a discreet personal life is different than hiding. You can either own it or be ashamed of it, and I know which way you're going albeit at your own pace.

So I think the premise of your question is wrong. You're not a "fetish" dresser, just because you're a lil freaky. ;-)

[MsJanessa]

You're right---some of the ladies here have voiced disapproval of fetish type CDers---similar to some who have disapproved of gay or bi cders--I used to notice that alot more when I started posting here in 2006--doesn't seem as common now. But you are right, for many of us there is a sexual/sensous element to our dressing and that is a big reason why we do it. Others don't seem either to have that feeling or are reluctant to acknoledge it if they do and for some reason tend to dump on those of us who have those feelings

[docrobbysherry]

Altho this topic HAS been bantered about many times, I do think it's a very important subject for many dressers! Because at one time or another, ALMOST every CD/TG/TS has been turned on by some aspects of dressing!

But, Pythos, on the one hand, u deplore that so called fetish dressers r "ostrasized". On the other, u deplore "jacking off in women's drawers". I'm sorry, but u CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!
"Fetish" means some sexual activity is involved. But, I guess you've progressed PAST the "jacking off" stage? Sounds A LOT like so many of the TG/TSs that u r condemning in your post, doesn't it?

Maybe you're part of the PROBLEM?

Personally, I think I understand EXACTLY where the fetish "ostrasizers" r coming from! The ONE reason I don't feel I can tell anyone about my CDing, and the ONE aspect that still causes me guilt, is my SEXUAL involvement! And, it has nothing what so ever to do with religion.
Once I moved past having sex while dressed, I'd probably want to quickly forget that stage of my CDing, too! But, I don't think I'd EVER throw stones at anyone who combines dressing with sex!

[Miranda-E]

I do not understand how the respectable presentation by a so called fetish dresser is a bad thing for the advancement of TG rights. I personally do not see it as such. I think it is us humans experiencing through material sensations that the creator allowed us to have...and then some silly sods said it is a sin to experience.

a respectable presentation and respectable actions while presenting never hurts the cause or is a bad thing.
Respectable presentation can cover a lot of ground. the obvious "man in the dress" buying his groceries does nothing to hurt the advancement of TG right. The passing unless you really look woman going off her nut screaming "you just got beat up by a tranny" on film DOES hurt us all.
There is a level of fetish that needs to be left home, don't scare the straits at walmart.

I know one woman that wears a collar 24/7. I have never seen her without it in 5 years, not always the same physical item around her neck, but its a collar no ifs ands or buts about it. Sometimes its a very attractive "dress collar". There is nowhere I'd be uncomfortable going with her.

[Stephenie S]

Well I don't read every post here, but I am not so sure that this is really a problem. Do we really have people putting others down for, as doc says, "mixing dressing and sex"? I don't see it that much.

If it IS a problem then we should all reject it. No one should throw those sorts of stones. I agree with the OP. Women's clothes can be very sensual.

S

[Badtranny]

Personally, I think I understand EXACTLY where the fetish "ostrasizers" r coming from! The ONE reason I don't feel I can tell anyone about my CDing, and the ONE aspect that still causes me guilt, is my SEXUAL involvement! And, it has nothing what so ever to do with religion.

Doc, this makes me sad. I'm not going to lie and say I empathize or understand you because I don't. I will say that unlike MANY others on this board you have always "kept your story straight". As far as I can tell, you've always been honest about who you are (to the forum) and even though I'm sometimes baffled by what you say, I would never (and have never) given you or the others a hard time for being Fet Cd's. How you get your freak on is really and truly none of my business.

For you, I honestly wish you could get past this guilt thing. It's totally pointless and unproductive and you don't deserve it.

To get back to the OP's question; I will say that I have an issue with the Fet's that won't admit it or try to pass themselves off as something else. Let's get real, grown men (who identify as men) love "working" with their hands if you know what I mean and I can hardly imagine a CD'r NOT getting a little excited with even a tiny bit of feminine expression. Last time I checked straight men are attracted to femininity.

Doc, in my considered opinion, you and yours are the truth and a HUGE number of others around here are full of crap.

[Piora]

Altho this topic HAS been bantered about many times, I do think it's a very important subject for many dressers! Because at one time or another, ALMOST every CD/TG/TS has been turned on by some aspects of dressing!

This is very true, Sherry. Up until about 6 months ago, this was my scenario - I was a fetish crossdresser. For me, it was strictly some type of underwear....panties, stockings, garter belt etc. And dressing that way was for the sole purpose of sexual gratification. I never wanted to dress in skirts, tops, or use a wig or makeup. And I'd always want to immediately get out of my female things afterward.


"Fetish" means some sexual activity is involved. But, I guess you've progressed PAST the "jacking off" stage? Sounds A LOT like so many of the TG/TSs that u r condemning in your post, doesn't it?

Once I moved past having sex while dressed, I'd probably want to quickly forget that stage of my CDing, too! But, I don't think I'd EVER throw stones at anyone who combines dressing with sex!

It was the same for me, as well. I moved past it too....and started wearing skirts, tops and shoes...as well as a wig and using makeup. Now, my motivation for dressing is for the pleasure of feeling feminine and pretty, and while, as you say Sherry, there is often SENSUALITY - there is no SEXUAL aspect for me anymore. Now, I like the way I look and feel when fully dressed, and that is what gives me the most pleasure.

[GBJoker]

Because it's bugging me so much, and that is because my Human Sexuality teacher drilled it into my head...

It's called "transvestite." It's a valid medical and psychological term. And most importantly of all, it's okay to use it, and people should use it when describing this phenomenon, and discussing it.

There is also a psychological term for people who can only "get off" with a certain item, in this case, women's underwear... But... I resold my book to the college and can't look it up as easily as I want to.

I got no problems with transvestites. It would go against my political and religious beliefs to say anything else.

The problem I've noticed with transgenders and transexuals attitudes towards transvestites seems to be the same as the attitude straights and gays/lesbians have towards bisexuals. A transvestite isn't really part of the "group." Therefore, since we have reached the mentality (about 90-150 years ago, depending on who you talk to) of defining "us" as "not them," instead of "us" by "x," there will be flames and anger towards other groups and demographics. A bisexual, for example, is always seen as being a freak riding the fence, not having the guts to choose one side or the other. A transvestite is seen as... Riding the fence, but in a way that's breaking the fence, which is why people have problems with it. Unfortunately, this image of destroying the fence is nothing more than imagination, especially since most people don't realise just exactly how many transvestites there are in the country/world.

As Miranda-E says, the stuff in the media is far worse for the image and representation of the transgendered and transexual community than what some random individual does in his/her private time.

If you just switch the appropriate words in my post, you'll see that the same arguement can be made for ANY sexual fetish.

[ReineD]

What I would like to know is....why is this so bad? I know of GGs that get off from the squeeze of a corset. I know others that get turned on by the feel of garters and stockings.

The fact is "feminine" clothing IS sensuous. It is soft, or sleek, form fitting, or a combination of all.

I can't speak much about the eroticism of dressing in feminine clothing that a genetic male experiences, but I can speak about what women feel when they wear sexy things. :)

First, let's make allowances for age. I'm not in my 20s anymore and although I do feel erotic, it is not the same as when I was younger. :) But ... allowing for young women who are learning about their sexuality, generally when we wear sexy things it is not the things in themselves (corsets, nylons, panties, racy bras, etc), that do it for us. It is the idea that we "look" sexy enough to appeal to a partner. In other words, a woman will become aroused just like a guy will, her fantasies will run to having sex with a partner, and she will put on the things that would excite him. In her mind, she becomes the woman that HE cannot resist, and she has fantasies or driving him wild with desire.

Men are visual, and they like to look at sexy women when they are aroused. Women know this, and they like to look sexy when THEY feel aroused, in order to attract the men. Yin and yang. :)

Most women (unless they have a super high libido), will not become aroused just by putting on sexy things, if they're not aroused already.


---------------------------

As to your question about why fetish CDers are looked down upon, I should think this is only in forums where there are many "identity" crossdressers and transsexuals who are trying to be accepted for who they are and who dislike to be associated with the public's view that crossdressers are fetishistics perverts. We do live in a puritanical society, unfortunately.

If you went to a site strictly for men who dress for sexual pleasure and there were no members who did this to express a feminine identity, I don't think you'd be vilified.

:2c:

[AllieSF]

Pythos, I have seen some of the threads and posts that you reference. I must say, however, that they are in the minority and to me, only pop up occasionally here. When they do, there will be a lot of replies that clearly rebut the other's point of view. Some of these are dress your age, dress appropriately, and then the ones referencing a news article about someone who takes their unique way of dressing, like the guy who flew in a bikini, out in public. We all have opinions here that vary all over the place. I personally applaud the extremists for making my life when out a lot easier, in that I think that people are more than happy to see me after seeing one of the extreme dressers, or like at the SF Pride festivities, after seeing one of the few nude men who walk around the big crowds.

You used the word "ostracized". I disagree with you. In general, there are more people defending our rights to wear what we want compared to those prefer not to see it, whether they say it directly or indirectly in their posts. In my opinion, no one has been ostracized from this site because of that, unless it was for breaking the sites rules and regulations. Many of your threads seem to be directed at the non-acceptance of others to the way that we, and maybe more specifically, to the way that you dress. I will repeat what I have seen others reply to you about that. Pythos, you just need to "own" how you dress in front of others when out in the real world. If that is how you want to dress, then do it. Except for the work place, you can dress as you want and be yourself and should be.

People on this site have opinions that may or may not be accepted by someone else. We just need to remember that they are that person's opinion and probably, in most instances, do not truly represent the opinions of the majority here and in the real world outside of this site. Always remember, that if we dress differently than the general public for people in our age group and income status, we will be looked at quite frequently. That is human nature to notice that which is not common to one's own experiences. The first goth dressed people I saw were stared at by me. One reason obviously was that their dress style was very new to me. The other was to look at all their piercings, studded collars and cuffs and to see the detail of their presentations. My initial thoughts were probably, "Wow, that looks weird!". So, what. I wasn't thinking nor saying that there goes some scum bag weirdo who should be banned from the earth. Give us all a break and try to realize that only a very small minority both here and in the real world are the ones who may, or may not, cause problems for you and us when we go out dressed as we want in public.

Believe me, the sky is not falling. Oh, and please keep dressing the way you want, because I for one do like your style for you. I would like to try some softer but edgy look like that one day.

Regarding the fetish side of dressing, the others have provided a lot of good comments on that.

[KellyJameson]

Can sex be "bad" if it is not harming anyone? We often judge an act bad or good based on the context that it happens under, thinking that we perceive the whole truth but rarely are we in a position to know the whole truth as observers and often the participants themselves do not know all of their motives ( feelings,emotionals , ect..)

If we use deception to seduce another and the reasons for the seduction hide ulterior motives does this than make sex "bad"? My thinking is that it is not the sex that is bad but the lack of respect for another because of the deception, (violence to anothers mind).

For myself sex makes me uneasy not because of the sex but because of the destructive potential behind the act but so do guns, alcohol, cars,religion,drugs, politics,ect.... The human problem is how our behavior affects everything outside of ourselves including our own mind/bodies because no man/woman is an island and much of this behavior is built on a foundation of fear and fear often destroys the good in response to the bad. Anything can be used as a tool but life has value and tools are objects and when the value of a tool exceeds the value of life than life is sacrificed.

For myself I am not a sexual being because my natural energy runs contrary to my bodies sexuality so creates conflict in its expression and I feel internal disharmony and always have, I lack the animal instinct for sex and aggression. This has allowed me to stand apart from a very powerful force and watch its expression among my fellow human beings and my concern is always because of the harm I see done.

I have watched people die from STD's, met countless woman who have been sexually abused by family members and watched the inter-generational cycle of teen pregnancy and poverty.

The problem is not sex,sensuality, fetish but how our behavior affects others. I fear the consequences of human passions because often these passions destroy innocent life, particularly children who than grow up to continue the cycle of destruction against life and the planet by reenacting the trauma and confusion of their childhood.

We control people through punishment (criticism, intimidation,isolation,confinement, ect..)instead of helping them to learn how to manage the passions of their appetites, the opposite of love.

The one constant I always feel like a vibration when I'm among people is their fear of each other and where there is fear there is control. People do not control themselves as much as they seek to control others and often the acts they condemn they do in the privacy of their own homes because their behavior does not make them afraid, only when they witness it done by others and than they use twisted logic to condemn the other persons behavior while they justify their behavior. To be a fearful person is to be a hypocrite, fear traps the mind in ignorance of self and this is where hate resides.

[Badtranny]

To be a fearful person is to be a hypocrite, fear traps the mind in ignorance of self and this is where hate resides.

omg that is F'ng brilliant.

[KaTanya]

Pythos, how does this ring different from any other social circle you've been in? Whatever common interests we have, we're bound to have differences of opinions, some of them intense and personal. Some of tehm downright stupid. (a shouting match over elves vs. dwarves got our D&D group kicked out of the library for 6 months... Yeah, stupid.) (Ever tell a Slayer fan that Slayer sucks? Got in a few fights over that.) (etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum...)

as a last resort, there is an "Ignore"button for any particular members being negative towards you.

[carhill2mn]

Thank you Renie for your very good reply re: a GWs view. Unfortunately, there are many perfectly good words which some people think of in a bad way. With a spectrum as wide as the "T" world, there will always be differences of opinion. This is good unless someone becomes abusive towards someone who is different from them. One would expect that people like "us"
would be among the most tolerant but, unfortunately, that is not always the case.

There are a few CDs/T-girls who are dismissive of "closet only" dressers. The same is true of those who believe that a spouse must be told. Usually, there are extenuating circumstances that need to be considered. Personally, I belive that you can dress anyway that you want to in your own home. However, if you go out in public, then there are other things to be considered because, in a way, you are representing an entire group of people to many people who are not well informed.

It is very normal for each of us to not really understand what others do or why. But, we can all be courteous to those people.

[Ria]

Well said Pythos... I'm with you and relate to CDing much like you.

One would think that a CROSSDRESSING FORUM would be a enough of a "label" to accuratly describe this group's common interest and motives for crossdressing, but it doesn't at all! So many different things going on here, which is good...

However, It seems to me that this forum includes men who identify as "women" to the degree that they have created a segregation of "Elite CDrs" from the part timers or fetish/semi fetish group of crossdressers.

I little dispointing, the hypocracy is rediculus.

[DonniDarkness]

Pythos,

To put it as simply as i can: The driving reason for all the judgement towards the fetish kids comes down to the pure and simple fact that it challenges other Transgender peoples Egos. "They"; "We", like the rest of society are trying to fit in, the fetish dresser going out on the town has the sole purpose of attracting attention towards them selves. The PVC, Latex, Leather outfits are all made to be seen as vibrant, edgy, and completly out of the ordinary, which is exactly why they(we) wear it....To be seen expressing themselves the way that challenges others views of style and attire. However this style of dressing has deep roots in sexual fantasies and bondage... which again challenges peoples egotistical perception of self. (look it up). We all have a subconcious defense mechanism that is trained by society to motivate us to conform to the world around us.

Simple huh.

The point is there will always be a negative view towards those who are different in any way shape or form. Even from those who are different themselves.....

So Eff em, be yourself and be proud of it.

Challenging life daily,
-Donni-

PS. Melissa Hobbes: Love your new hair, its fab!

[NicoleScott]

As to your question about why fetish CDers are looked down upon, I should think this is only in forums where there are many "identity" crossdressers and transsexuals who are trying to be accepted for who they are and who dislike to be associated with the public's view that crossdressers are fetishistics perverts. We do live in a puritanical society, unfortunately.

Pythos, I think Reine's explanation is right on target, but I would add that it's not just the public's view that crossdressers are fetishistic perverts, but the view of many identity dressers on this forum as well. They're drive to dress is pure, ours (pleasure dressers) is unsavory. While I haven't noticed much overt bashing of fetish dressing, I have taken note of many veiled put-downs. For example, there was a thread "What's your fetish?" Some, those of us with a fetish aspect to our dressing, answered directly as asked. Many others responded with "I don't have any fetishes. I dress because I'm a woman inside." That response adds nothing to the topic of the thread, and serves only to elevate the poster above the rif-raf fetish sexual perverts they think we are, the point they were trying to make without really coming right out with it.
We don't need to get detailed about what we do when we dress, if fetish drives our dressing. I refer to myself as a pleasure dresser, when I think it is appropriate to give such context. Smart people can figure out what that means. But whether that pleasure means sexual, tactile, or emotional isn't important.
There is another reason for the divide. Some fetish dressers dress in a manner that embarrasses those who wish to blend, and since all sorts of transgendered people are lumped together, it doesn't serve their purpose. We are encourarged to go out (it helps our cause) but not like THAT (it hurts our cause).
It seems that the forum is moving from dressing in women's clothes to becoming women. Those of us that identify as men but derive pleasure from wearing women's clothes and makeup aren't very well accepted any more. In My Opinion.

[Lucy_Bella]

It seems that the forum is moving from dressing in women's clothes to becoming women. Those of us that identify as men but derive pleasure from wearing women's clothes and makeup aren't very well accepted any more. In My Opinion.


Agree!!

[Marleena]

Pythos I totally get what you're saying. My signature is the answer.

Who am I to judge others or their motivations? We really do need to stick together even though we are all in different places on the gender spectrum.

[sandra-leigh]

Pythos, I have seen some of the threads and posts that you reference. I must say, however, that they are in the minority and to me, only pop up occasionally here. When they do, there will be a lot of replies that clearly rebut the other's point of view.

Allie, I think you may be referring to the threads about what people wear, including the "people of wal*mart" threads. Those ones do get criticized and closed down in short order; there is a forum rule about them.

There is, however, a number of threads that deal more with why people wear what they do -- and those threads often tend towards very harsh treatment of the possibility of dressing for enjoyment, especially if there is any sexual enjoyment involved. Very harsh.

I am not going to point out specific threads here: the mods and admins have permitted the threads or comments that I am thinking about to remain without intervention, and I don't argue policy decisions (especially not in public.) I find the threads quite upsetting myself, but I also know that I have the choice of refraining from using the system if I do not like the discussions.

[Barbara Ella]

As with all societies or sub sections of them, there will be a gradient of individual thoughts and abilities. I accept this, and let each level have their own prejudices, and try not to let their thoughts affect anything I do if I am outside their level. If I am in their level, I bitch at them. The society that is created here is no different, and for the most part is accepting and supporting. There will always be individuals, so be it. Their thoughts have no impact on what I do, and in my mind they lack the relevant connection to accurately convey their thoughts about what it is I do. So while I cn respect their intellectual level, they are irrelevant to me, and i pigeonhole their detrimental thoughts accordingly. As long as I am not being detrimental to the overall society, they have nothing to complain about, and their comments are relevant only to others in their sub society.

I operate on the premise that they are doing the exact same thing with anything I say, and that is fine with me. i cannot profess to know the intricacies of the different sub societal members that coexist on this forum, other than to really feel that they are all wonderful people going through some things.

Babes

[TxKimberly]

Well, as Kelly pointed out, in your opening post you are pretty much guilty of doing the very thing that are decrying - you drew lines between some and others and made it clear that you found some to be undesirable. I'm not slamming you for it, just kind of pointing it out.

I don't mind telling you that I do not want to be associated with people that post pics showing their hairy legs and "package" in panties and thigh highs. Anyone that wants to is free to express themselves as they see fit, and I respect that right, but I do NOT wish to be a part of it or be associated with it. Of course, the same thing can be said for your "normal" or "typical" porn as far as I am concerned, because I also have no interest in seeing or being associated with THAT kind of pic or people either.

Some hings I think should be kept in private, and talk about "jacking off", and pics of packages, are on that list for me.

[Benita05]

>>> Some hings I think should be kept in private, and talk about "jacking off", and pics of packages, are on that list for me.

I agree whole heartedly. In my brief time perusing these forums, I have learned quite a lot, and I'm really not looking for regurgitations on sexual experiences or looking at you in a pair of pantyose as though I can feel your feeling!! Good honest dialogue about what we do and why we do it is al that's necessary.

As far as differentiating what we are depending on how far we go with our fantasies that is ridiculous and negates the purpose of the forums. Perhaps we're evolving into races! That's a scary thought.

[Emma Leigh]

It seems that the forum is moving from dressing in women's clothes to becoming women. Those of us that identify as men but derive pleasure from wearing women's clothes and makeup aren't very well accepted any more. In My Opinion.


Agree!!

I agree with you Lucy, maybe the forum should change its name

[DonniDarkness]

Collective narcissism (or group narcissism) is a type of narcissism where an individual has an inflated self-love (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-love) of his or her own ingroup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingroup), where an “ingroup” is a group in which an individual is personally involved.While the classic definition of narcissism focuses on the individual, collective narcissism asserts that one can have a similar excessively high opinion of a group, and that a group can function as a narcissistic entity.

Collective narcissism has been shown to be a factor in intergroup aggression and bias. Primary components of collectively narcissistic intergroup relations involve aggression against, and perceived threat from, outgroups with which the narcissistic ingroup has frequent interaction.Collective narcissism helps to explain unreasonable manifestations of retaliation between groups. A narcissistic group is more sensitive to perceived criticism exhibited by outgroups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outgroups), and is therefore more likely to retaliate. Collective narcissism is also related to negativity between groups who share a history of distressing experiences. This intergroup callousness is the result of an unforgiving narcissistic party

It is common for narcissistic ingroups to have an unstable high group self-esteem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-esteem).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_narcissism#cite_note-Zavala-0) Because of this instability, narcissistic groups are especially prone to perceived negativity towards themselves. The members of a narcissistic ingroup are likely to assume threats or negativity towards their ingroup where threats or negativity were not necessarily implied or exhibited. It is thought that this heightened sensitivity to negative feelings towards the ingroup is a result of underlying doubts about the greatness of the ingroup held by its members.These perceived threats result in a damaged collective self-esteem, which is associated with increased intergroup aggression.
Similar to other elements of collective narcissism, intergroup aggression related to collective narcissism draws parallels with its individually narcissistic counterparts. An individual narcissist might react aggressively in the presence of humiliation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humiliation), irritation, or anything threatening to his self-image.

Legend:

Ingroup = Where you perceive yourself to belong among our community

Intergroup = Transgenderism (All of us)

Outgroup = Society

.....Maybe actually understanding what is happening to our group will help to find some common ground among all of us....


-Donni-

[Marleena]

Luckily the self pleasure in pantyhose, etc. threads are removed quickly by the mods. It's just too much information. I'm learning to avoid threads and certain sections on the board that don't concern me or where I might not be welcome. It took a while though to learn that though.

Oh..and Donnie your post makes a heck of a lot of sense.:)

[Kaz]

If the same respect was given to the posts in this section of the forum, that is expected and moderated, in the other sections according to the title they are given, i.e. Male to Female CROSSdresser, then there wouldn't be so many conflicts.

This is a good point.. possibly slightly off thread (sorry Pythos), but worth commenting on. This forum (MtF) tends to be the main entry point and so this is where most people (inc me) post... when I get it wrong I get it moved by the mods. But a lot of people post here kicking a**e with MtF CDs when this is in theory our forum! In general I have no problem with this is as all challenge is good - we can choose to take things on board, ignore or get angry... I have done all three!

Fetish CDs are still MtF CDs... if they had there own forum would this change things? I suspect not... I have no desire to engage with some things that some 'members' get up to, but it is my choice to opt in or out. If it gets too out of whack the mods will sort it anyway as they do a brilliant job...thank you mods!!

And to Pythos, my friend, you have style, charisma and still some (!) youth on your side... and I enjoy everything that you post... Continue for all our sakes... and believe me I do not see you as a fetish CD... whatever that is... now then back to some serious fun in women's lingerie! Just kidding!

[Emma Leigh]

Good post Donni, our keyword should be community, this forum is the only place many of us can feel any kind of acceptance

[Badtranny]

It seems that the forum is moving from dressing in women's clothes to becoming women. Those of us that identify as men but derive pleasure from wearing women's clothes and makeup aren't very well accepted any more. In My Opinion.

This is not true. Some other girls and I were just talking about this very topic and we all agreed that we sometimes felt like interlopers on a CD board. The percentage of identified TS's on the forum is a mere fraction of the CD's. I don't even open most of the threads because just the title is unappealing. The idea that the CD's are becoming some kind of trod upon minority is just silly.

The truth is the TS girls very rarely attack the CD girls about fet stuff or fashion. We understand the difference, and we also understand that there are people who THINK they are one thing, when they may be the other thing. At the end of the day, I don't really care how someone get's their jollies. I only care that they represent themselves honestly. This is NOT a fantasy forum after all, and people who lie or misrepresent themselves are just diluting what's good about this forum.

There is no shortage of people here who proudly identify as straight men, thread after thread is filled with some form of macho posturing. Hey I get it, you're men. Some of these men are open and honest about who they are and what they do, and some are not. In one thread they're playing coy and tittering about "flirting" with some guy, and in another they're kicking some dude in the seeds cuz he stroked her arm. Look nobody cares if you blow guys at the rest stop or if you're totally content to fantasize with your wife. (excuse me, SO) This is a discussion forum and all most of us know about each other is what we've written, so to what end would you not be authentic, at least virtually?

This is less a discussion about Fetish CD's which would comprise most of the forum, and more about the BS that we try to feed each other. When you can't even accept who you are, then you can't help but think that no one else does either.

[Lucy_Bella]

This is less a discussion about Fetish CD's which would comprise most of the forum, and more about the BS that we try to feed each other. When you can't even accept who you are, then you can't help but think that no one else does either.

This quote from Badtranny, this is the problem . I don't not ever suspect any spectrum of denying who they are.. I am not a Dr. and I go through life learning everyday.. I know I am not perfect but because I enjoy emulating women doesn't mean I am a T.S. in denial.. Period.. It's so easy being atop the spectrum judging everyone whom you feel are intruders.. This is a support site and we all are TG's if you wanna throw the B.S. flag, throw it in your own game on your own field.

This is not a shot at Badtranny either and I am sure I mis read her point as she may have meant well ..It is all a perception within words no body language or facial language .. So please Badtranny don't think this is me picking any fight with you I don't even know you to judge .. Some glasses are half full some are half empty,,

[Kaz]

Lucy... I understand this point of view.. I also understand Melissa's... can we kind of deal with it with the OP in mind? We could take this off line in a seperate thread? BTW Melissa love the new avatar!

[Badtranny]

This quote from Badtranny, this is the problem . I don't not ever suspect any spectrum of denying who they are.. I am not a Dr. and I go through life learning everyday.. I know I am not perfect but because I enjoy emulating women doesn't mean I am a T.S. in denial.. Period.. It's so easy being atop the spectrum judging everyone whom you feel are intruders.. This is a support site and we all are TG's if you wanna throw the B.S. flag, throw it in your own game on your own field.,

That's IT, it's ON!! ;-)

I didn't mean that you were all TS in denial. Not at all. The BS I'm talking about is the people who try to act like something they are not. I don't want to give specific examples as I'm not near as cranky as some may think. The point I'm trying to make is there is nothing wrong with being a CD, fetish or otherwise. Just be proud of whoever you are. If some of us don't understand you, don't hide behind pretension, be brave because nobody understand me either. ;-)

[Lucy_Bella]

That's IT, it's ON!! ;-)

I didn't mean that you were all TS in denial. Not at all. The BS I'm talking about is the people who try to act like something they are not. I don't want to give specific examples as I'm not near as cranky as some may think. The point I'm trying to make is there is nothing wrong with being a CD, fetish or otherwise. Just be proud of whoever you are. If some of us don't understand you, don't hide behind pretension, be brave because nobody understand me either. ;-)

Thank you and that was very well said ..It was clear to where there was no mis interpretation ( I can be pretty dense ) ..Thank you for understanding.. I do understand the few who have this " Look at me Look at me " Attitude ..That will happen everywhere.. Sorry If I may have slightly high jacked this thread Pythos.. :hugs:

[Crysten]

Simply put, who cares. I express myself however I want to, both gender wise and sexuality wise. I limit myself due to other responsibilities I have in my life. I seriously couldn't care less what other people think about it, how they feel about it, or what they say about it. If they don't like, it's thier problem, not mine. I think if more people busied themselves with thier own concerns and stopped getting all up in other peoples business, the world would be a much better place. No point in questioning hatred and bigotry anyway, those people fail, and always will, you can't argue with them, you can only press on.

[Lori B]

Good post Donni, our keyword should be community, this forum is the only place many of us can feel any kind of acceptance my feelings too................:gh:

[RachelOKC]

There's a lot of people who spend waaaaayyy too much time judging other people's choices. CD's bash TS's, TS's bash CD's, and everybody picks on the fetish folks. How about live and let live for crying out loud?

I guess if you have a problem with someone, then you need to ask yourself why you have that problem. Maybe it's more of an insecurity with yourself than the other person. So if that's the case, then why do you let yourself be measured by someone else's yardstick? It's simple - don't, and don't measure others by yours.

I'll tell you right off that there's plenty of people and their lifestyles or expressions that I just don't get. So you're into sissy doll dresses? Not my favorite style of fashion but go for it. Want to stay in the closet? I think life is better out than in, but whatever - do what you gotta do. Get turned on by dressing in lingerie? Nothing wrong with that. Want to turn your outie into an innie? If it makes you feel better about yourself, then there's no better reason. It's a big world and we don't NEED to understand everyone else and we don't NEED them to understand us.

Now I'm not saying you can't share your view and discuss things. Hell, you can argue your point and try to convince the other dude(ette). But how about just respecting their choices, their expression, and their differences of opinion? How about expecting the same in return? If they don't understand you or vice versa, than so what? Move on with it. Try not to have so much of a problem with people who don't think the same way as you do. How damn hard is that?

[kellycan27]

I can't speak much about the eroticism of dressing in feminine clothing that a genetic male experiences, but I can speak about what women feel when they wear sexy things. :)

First, let's make allowances for age. I'm not in my 20s anymore and although I do feel erotic, it is not the same as when I was younger. :) But ... allowing for young women who are learning about their sexuality, generally when we wear sexy things it is not the things in themselves (corsets, nylons, panties, racy bras, etc), that do it for us. It is the idea that we "look" sexy enough to appeal to a partner. In other words, a woman will become aroused just like a guy will, her fantasies will run to having sex with a partner, and she will put on the things that would excite him. In her mind, she becomes the woman that HE cannot resist, and she has fantasies or driving him wild with desire.

Men are visual, and they like to look at sexy women when they are aroused. Women know this, and they like to look sexy when THEY feel aroused, in order to attract the men. Yin and yang. :)

Most women (unless they have a super high libido), will not become aroused just by putting on sexy things, if they're not aroused already.


---------------------------

As to your question about why fetish CDers are looked down upon, I should think this is only in forums where there are many "identity" crossdressers and transsexuals who are trying to be accepted for who they are and who dislike to be associated with the public's view that crossdressers are fetishistics perverts. We do live in a puritanical society, unfortunately.

If you went to a site strictly for men who dress for sexual pleasure and there were no members who did this to express a feminine identity, I don't think you'd be vilified.

:2c:

Very well said.. I think you nailed it!
Kel

[docrobbysherry]

Simply put, who cares. I express myself however I want to, both gender wise and sexuality wise. I limit myself due to other responsibilities I have in my life. I seriously couldn't care less what other people think about it, how they feel about it, or what they say about it. If they don't like, it's thier problem, not mine. I think if more people busied themselves with thier own concerns and stopped getting all up in other peoples business, the world would be a much better place. No point in questioning hatred and bigotry anyway, those people fail, and always will, you can't argue with them, you can only press on.
Sadly, we're ALL flawed and prejudiced, Crysten! As my father pointed out to me as we discussed this topic when I was young. He asked if I treated everyone the same no matter their gender, color, financial, or ethnic heritage. I said I tried to.

To which he replied, "You're prejudiced, son. Because only when u can't see or tell the differences in people r u truly unprejudiced!"
In which case I wouldn't have any idea if I treated folks equally. Because I couldn't tell if they were different or not!

[Pythos]

Need to clarify.

When I put in those exclusions in, try to remember I am only going by what is commonly thought as perverted actions. Me personally I don't care if you do those things, and I certainly don't think it should any bearing whatsoever upon the status of TG groups in general.

I hope that clears up my stance.


thread after thread is filled with some form of macho posturing.
I just about fell off my chair backwards, and had my pantyhosed legs stuck up in the air, laughing my a** off at this. LOL. MACHO!!! ME? No way in hell. I cannot stand macho posturing and when I see men doing it, I wanna puke. "look at me, me man, me punch wall with fist" (okay that was an exgeration, but you get my point) I am so far from macho it is not funny.

[jillleanne]

You only need to look at the big picture for your answer. All is created by the fact most people need labels to identify themselves for varous reasons. Take away the labels and the problem disappears also. Simple. I hate labels, I disagree with the need for them, and they have never served a usefill purpose except for those that need them to make assumptions or for negative purposes, and they are not necessary for structure.

[Kate T]

There may be an element of a couple of bad apples not helping either. I do not have a problem per se with any fetish however as with anything I would place the caveat that provided it does not harm emotionally or physically anyone else. Unfortunately it is not hard to find even on this forum miscellaneous threads wherein the fetish is used as some sort of excuse to engage in behaviour that is selfish and going to hurt someone.

[Jeannie]

Hi Pythos, I think it is because humans tend to dislike or even hate what they don't understand, I know it's a worn out cliche but still very true. Where I live the fact that there are even crossdressers at all, no matter why the reason, automatically brings loathe and disgust from some people every time the words are mentioned. If you happen to say anything about it in most places the reaction you will get is "that's disgusting". Crossdressers are lump into the same pile as any other fetish/perversion and given the same amount of disgust. We are all a bunch perverts wacking off and wearing womens clothes, rubber, latex or whatever other fetishes that out there. People that talk bad about what you are doing either don't have a clear understanding or they are just talking to hear their head rattle. For me personally, I just laugh and keep on going. You know, some people have way to much time on their hands. Please forgive if I am rambling but I just went for my first dress and drive and the my nerve medicine (Jim Beam on the rocks) has finally started working. XXXOOO!!! Everyone!

[Kelly DeWinter]

......
Men are visual, and they like to look at sexy women when they are aroused.

I tend to like how you think Reine, and I feel, you probably ment MOST men are visual, So many member here see women her and think,"I like what shes wearing, I wonder how i would look in that when they are aroused or not. All men are not from Mars. (light hearted book reference)

As to your question about why fetish CDers are looked down upon, I should think this is only in forums where there are many "identity" crossdressers and transsexuals who are trying to be accepted for who they are and who dislike to be associated with the public's view that crossdressers are fetishistics perverts. We do live in a puritanical society, unfortunately.

So true, Many CD or trasngendered just want to blend in or fly under the radar when out enfem (including yours truely) and only want to stand out when going to dinner or a social engagement or a party. For years the only opprtunity the cd and tg had socialy was at a fetish event or group, with the advent of the internet there has been a NATURAL division as more and more cd/tg peek out of the closet for social events. it's just like there is a NATURAL division when someone decides to transition and starts the process. A lot of cd/trangender who become transgender/transexual, then start seeing life from their new perspective. LOL mayby its evolution on a faster scale ?

If you went to a site strictly for men who dress for sexual pleasure and there were no members who did this to express a feminine identity, I don't think you'd be vilified.

:2c:

That last part rings so true , this site's temperment is more focused on people trying to figure out what being a crossdresser means to themselves and their future.

[Stephanie47]

The reason I've enrolled in the site is the diversity of opinion and subject material. I have noticed there are some participants who feel a person like me should just put it out there- a militant approach without regard to a person other than myself who may be affected by my actions. And, then there are many younger or newer cross dressers who are just now taking baby steps and learning and struggling. I have seen other "cross dressing" sites which are nothing more than hard core porn. I choose to avoid them. I know many people who do not like cross dressing will point to them to justify their bias opinions.

I know I have posted in the past that I believe wearing one particular feminine garment really does not make a cross dresser. I started out just trying on my mother's slips. If I left it there I'd say I had a fetish. If I wore just panties I'd say I had a fetish. If I wore just high heels because ???, I'd say I had a fetish. That's my opinion-nothing more.

I have a niece and nephews who are Native American. However, their heritage is too 'diluted' to be enrolled in their mother's tribe. So, another tribe accepted them as Native Americans and enrolled them. So, if you're a full blooded 24/7 365 day a year (366 this year) cross dresser or a 'diluted' cross dresser, I welcome you here.

[Niya W]

Pyhtos this my take on it . When I came out most of the trans folks I knew and met were into fetish When I say trans I mean TS to. Latex,leather, BDSM, pony girls . SF has the Folsom fair, Citadel ,Power exchange . To be honest being in th SF bay area as a trans person I'm surprised you would feel any stigma over fethishes .

[Gillian Gigs]

Aren't we all looking for a little joy and happiness in this life. If fetish CDing is it, then who am I to say anything. If you want to transisition into a woman full time, then who am I to speak again. This is a forum, and everyone should have the right to share their opinion. That being said, opinions are like a$$ holes and we don't necessarily need the details. Personally, I want to read from all of the different individuals, from one extreme to the other. It is only through a full range of thoughts and opinions that I can make my "informed" decisions.

[Gwinnie]

I must say that I get turned on by it. I love ball gowns. The bigger and fuller the better. The feeling of the cool soft fabric and the rustling sound it makes and picking up all the dress to walk around drives me wild. And then if it has puffy sleeves that is just even better. The feeling of a big soft flowing ruffle falling over my hands and fingers is amazing too. So I would definatly say that I do get a turn on from it. And on top of that, just feeling like I look beautiful is a big part too.

[Phylis Nicole Schuyler]

Pythos, I think you have answered some of your own questions.



I can't disagree that if you believe in a creator, then it's easy to believe that our senses were created as good. People of faith actually do not disagree with you in that aspect. What they will say is that because of sin what was created in perfection has been corrupted and used for less then perfect purposes.

I for one believe that people are sensual and as long as what two consenting adults do as long as it is legal is OK. I might not personaly agree with it, but I don't have the right to tell someone what to do.

Kelly

I agree completely with you Kelly. If it were not for our being sensual, there would not be a mutitude of us (humans).No one person has the right to tell someone what to do or to even judge someone. There is only one Being that can do that. We are not perfect so why do we think that we are and that other people must conform to our beliefs and morraes(spelling?) that they are to be ostricised? (Too many big words on a Sunday) You are right. As long as it does not harm anyone or is forced upon us, I think we should accept people for all their quirks. Its what make this world interesting and dynamic. The attached is for those who sit on their throne and judge people when they too are imperfect.

[JessicaM1985]

Well at this point I still identify as a fetish CD'er. I have my moments where I just enjoy looking like a girl more than I like looking like a guy and vice versa. My personality also changes to suit this. The best guess that I've ever been able to figure out is that I'm bi-gendered. But yes, I do find sexual gratification in doing it too. I find the idea of being attractive to a guy while looking like a girl to be a real turn-on. I'm completely open and honest about why I do what I do. I'm also smart in who I tell due to the fact that I don't want to ruin what are otherwise good family ties, therefore my cross-dressing is known to a small group of trusted people that will build me up in regards to it and not tear me down. This is also the first time in my 26 years of life that I've gotten semi-serious about it and as a result I'm taking baby steps and going through small milestone after milestone. So this is the reason behind why I get excited over something small and trivial like nail polish, which may be trivial to more "hardcore" CD'ers and T.S. girls. Sometimes people often forget their own beginnings and how it's not easy when you're just starting out. And I'm basically just starting out and am kinda scared and at times overwhelmed by it. That's why I came to this forum. I needed the love and support to help give me my start. If I'm a bad person for this because I 'get my jollies' to it as well, then I guess I'm a bad person. I tried for so many years to suppress this part of myself, only to realize that there IS no suppressing it. Therefore I choose now to embrace it.

I agree that if there is any negative view of fetish CD'ers, it's because that's what society paints the TG community as a whole and I can understand where that would be offensive to some people. However the real blame for that lies on the negative views of society and not those that dress as a fetish. My best advice there is to channel the anger and indignity to the correct source.

[Pythos]

I feel little stigma about fetishes though there are some I think are pretty gross. OH and living in the SF bay area does not make some things I see any less gross to me. That being said. I am not the one that finds the so called fetish dressers to be a bad thing for the whole TG community.

Since some seem to not recall or see the threads to which I am referring to, I ask you to look in the thread concerning the difference between CD and Transgendered thread in the transsesxual. There you will see an example to which I refer. (I wanted to avoid referencing a thread in a different section, but it seems some here are unaware of some of the things said about us, ON THIS VERY FORUM.)

[Lucy_Bella]

Hi Pythos,
I think I understand where you are coming from , I read the example Thread you provided. It seems that there is this un for seen Hierarchy attitude that some need to get over. It appears that some , just because they are atop the Spectrum feel a need to be gate keepers with those who fall below with in the Spectrum.

First lets define "Trans " “across,” “beyond,” “through,” “changing ...? I am pretty sure that sums it up for all of us.. Then add " Sexual " are the meanings that are attributed, by a particular cultural-social-historical context, to sexual acts and broadly to all the aspects of the erotic .. Then take away " Sexual " and add "Gender" is determined socially; it is the societal meaning assigned to male and female. Each society emphasizes particular roles that each sex should play.

Nobody paved any role to any meaning , it is human nature that assigns each and every role and how far one wishes to proceed in that role no matter what Gender or sexuality..

[Kelly DeWinter]

Pythos, there is nothing wrong with crossrefrencing another thread, I looked for what you were referncing and just those words alone were not enoght to find what you are aluding to.

[pattyv]

Ria, how I can relate to your response. Well written. Long time no hear.

[Shayla99]

Well I for one, am a fetishist, in every sense of the word, latex, shoes, boots, stockings, tights, bondage, forced femme, etc, and I could go on.... however.....
While I have experienced a little shock and perhaps misunderstanding here, for the most part, I have been treated well, and with respect, and thats the worst of it.
Most gals here treat me with kindness and admiration, and the support I get here is priceless.... 99% of the comments I recieve are flattering and kind, even when I push the boundaries like my last set of pics, I feel like the distaste is a lack of experience, with the fetish look , and community....... What I posted was fairly mild, and I thought very HOT, I was quite proud of that set, and decided to venture out here and see what people thought here!!

Thats not to say everyone gets me, cause I do not even get me all the time....

I also am amazed that some CD's do not consider themselves fetishists....... As far as my definition goes, any compulsive behavior that is powered from our sexual nature is a fetish..... there are different levels for sure.... but arousal isn't the determining factor..... For me the act of gender bending is a fetish, I rarely get aroused when I dress, but often do as I gander the results later that day!!
I find it fairly odd , that any male with heels , pantyhose and a wig, would say they are not fetishists??? Seriously..... ???
I will never accept, that sexuality, isn't behind each and every one on this forum..... we all may express it differently, but wanting to be a woman, vs wanting to dress as a woman, is still in the same arena, and these desires are not driven by your need to eat and breathe!!
Rather they are a function of sexuality, in ALL OF US, so I guess I never have seen this separation???
If anyone does think that they are a better class of TG, they need to go to the back of the line and start over, we are here for liberation, and to express OURSELVES, I could care less about most definitions anyway, the first thing I learned is, that definitions fall way short in defining me, and if you think you can label me to judge me, you are making a huge mistake, you wanna label for me..... try "SHAYLA", after that , its all guess work honey!
I am free to be ME, and in all aspects that defines me ...nothing else, and I would like to think that each person here, is a sexual snowflake,, as individual, and special, as the next, with NO 2 THE SAME!!!!!!
Shame on anyone who thinks differently, our collective drift of humanity, can not be explained with terms and words, rather only shared through experience , and community!!!

Love and kisses to all!!!!

[Crissy Kay]

A lot of very interesting and well thought comments. Another reason I enjoy spending some time here each day. As to the OP"s subject, I am for the most part, a fetish cder, as I prefer to be in french maid or a sissy outfit. IMO most "regular" cds, who dress in street type clothes, think that us fetish, or sissy cds give crossdressing a bad rep or name????? IMO what does"nt!!!!!! I do not think it will ever become "mainstream" in our lifetimes, although most of us prefer it otherwise.

[Lucy_Bella]

I agree for the most part Shayla ,

But I do see a need for labeling as a Society even in the "Trans" Society. As a individual, no we need no labels , but as a Society we do for a better understand of, one or the other. With out labels we are " bottle necked " and we have no existence and that creates nothing but confusion with a group not to mention outside of a group. Now I know many of you do not care that's fine , but if you want a better outside or inside understanding we all should.

We all do fall under the " Trans " label most of us are "Transgender" with "Tran Sexual " being a broaden meaning under the "Transgender " umbrella.. Most of us can be Transexual's within a certain criteria of meanings . Define "Sex" verses "Sexuality" Sex has two meanings ,assigned gender in a role of society or an act .. Sexuality is the preference with meanings of Straight , Gay (Lesbian ) or Bi. meaning to commit certain "Act's or attractions " outside of or within the same Gender as an act or a role ..

[JulieK1980]

Hi Pythos,
I think I understand where you are coming from , I read the example Thread you provided. It seems that there is this un for seen Hierarchy attitude that some need to get over. It appears that some , just because they are atop the Spectrum feel a need to be gate keepers with those who fall below with in the Spectrum

Their first mistake is thinking that the spectrum is upright. If we all understood that the spectrum is NOT a hierarchy at all, we would all be better off. Nothing about being transitioned makes someone better or worse than someone that does it for sexual reasons. Who a person IS matters much more, and some within the thread referenced have shown themselves to be very ugly. It has NOTHING to do with their gender, their "status" as trans, or what clothes they wear. It does have everything to do with being a nasty human being though. I am however thankful, that those that are like that, are in a significant minority, (albeit a very vocal one.) The vast majority of those that posted in that thread were not at all offensive or bashing of others, and were in fact very respectful.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Their first mistake is thinking that the spectrum is upright. If we all understood that the spectrum is NOT a hierarchy at all, we would all be better off. Nothing about being transitioned makes someone better or worse than someone that does it for sexual reasons. Who a person IS matters much more, and some within the thread referenced have shown themselves to be very ugly. It has NOTHING to do with their gender, their "status" as trans, or what clothes they wear. It does have everything to do with being a nasty human being though. I am however thankful, that those that are like that, are in a significant minority, (albeit a very vocal one.) The vast majority of those that posted in that thread were not at all offensive or bashing of others, and were in fact very respectful.

I'm still not sure what thread every one is referring to, could some ome post the link or pm me the link ?

Jody you make a valid point , a lot of what people think about others is dtermined on what type of person they are on the inside. I still remember how a personal friend of mine was an upstanding 'pillor of the community' on the outside, and was literlly revered by all, until it became know that he was a 'wife beater'. His solution, instead of getting help for his anger issues, was to pull up family lock stock and barral and move to another state and is again be a 'pillor of the community'.

[DonniDarkness]

Since some seem to not recall or see the threads to which I am referring to, I ask you to look in the thread concerning the difference between CD and Transgendered thread in the transsesxual. There you will see an example to which I refer.

I read that thread.

I think the biggest conflict that the two "ingroups" (CD vs TS) face is by trying to put a scale of difficulty on their lives based on where they are in the gender spectrum. When the truth is that both of these ingroups have unique problems of their own and it is the fault of their/our own vanity to put a degree of difficulty on either life. Each person has their own path, they are all unique, but that does not give anyone the right to call themselves better than you.

Some of us are quite happy to be sexual people and have healthy outlets for our eroticism, fetishes, and fantasies. That fact is misunderstood and dismissed by all of society, including our transgender brothers and sisters. Not all of us are delusional or use crossdressing as an excuse to be erotic or sexual. I am a very sexual person and so is my wife, no matter what I/we are wearing.

So putting me/us into the category of people who use the internet as a tool to subjegate their own sexual delusions onto others just because we are crossdressers is incredibly insulting.

-Donni-

[Pythos]

I am also quite a sensual and sexual being, I am finally finding this out. I don't need the clothing to be such, though it does add in some cases.

That being said though, I just do not get why it is a negative and why it validates exclusionism and even the idea of throwing members of one group under a bus so as to attain rights for yourself. I actually read one individual say such, AND some agree with that.

Ben Franklin said "those who are willing to give up freedom for security deserve neither". That individual is willing to give up my freedom for their security, instead of fighting for human rights for all humans. It was really disheartening to read that kind of thing here.

[darci.c]

One of my first girlfriends was totally straight. I will try not to sound vulgar, but simply put... she loved (fill in the blank with a word that starts with the letter c and ends in ock)

She was all girl. Loved men.

But,

A while into our relationship she expressed to me a secret thrill/fantasy to be with a girl. She went and did it. I was there. It was awesome.

There's a switch somewhere in people's brains that turns on whenever you know that what you're doing is "forbidden" "sinful" "naughty" or otherwise "wrong".

She had so much pleasure having sex with another girl that I was almost jealous. But I knew it came from the idea that she was crossing a boundary. In reality, sex is mostly in the brain, in the mind. Some kind of wire was short-circuited there that turned it into a fantasy for her. Does that mean she's gay? Not really. Gay / straight aren't really meaningful words in my universe.

I completely understand getting a sexual thrill from dressing. It has happened to me. > There is nothing wrong with that, in whatever shape or form you find it in. <

The critics might say that you do it for the wrong reasons. I say "so what?"

The real reason anybody does anything is because of the way it feels to do it. We seek pleasure, in whatever form it comes. All of us.

In this way, we are all the same.

My reasons for CD (I believe) come from a less-than-perfectly developed male brain, due to variations in hormone levels during my development in the womb. I'm still mostly a man, I love women, but some parts of me are all girl and there's no way I can change that. I don't believe I'm missing out, morally deficient, or a bad decision maker.

I just know what feels good on me, I understand fashion, have aesthetic dispositions generally associated with the feminine gender, love drama, shopping, shoes, literature, art, and gossip, and follow such pursuits in the way that suits me. Sue me.

[Claire Cook]

I always have thought that this forum is designed for the whole spectrum of those of us who CD, and those who live with us. As has been stated before, this includes everyone from the sometime panty wearer to those of us who are full-time and may be transitioning (or have done). I'll wager that many of us had a sensual thrill the first time we tried on silky panties or a slip (I know I did..). Those of us who may have gone on from that point to more dressing should be sympathetic with and supportive of those who are content with the occasional sensual experience. I agree with all of the above comments about hierarchies -- heck, most of us stated out with simple steps. We're here to support each other, share our experiences and get encouragement and advice about how we dress.

Having said that, I agree with Kimberley TX: I am not particularly interested in posts of a more sexual nature, and tend to ignore them.