Does "not passing" mean that you aren't good at makeup?

[sara.s]

I know passing is more about behavior, gait etc but I am referring to just the appearance alone here. When people complain that they don't pass, is it just that they need to improve upon their makeup skills and their clothes/accessory selection?

[NicoleScott]

I suspect the main reason people don't think they can pass is body shape/size and [for whatever reason] the inability to shave body hair. Certainly makeup skills, or lack of them, is on the list, too.
I made a private video of myself while en femme. A real eye-opener. My look was good enough, until I walked. It wasn't as feminine as I thought it was. Needs work. I guess there are many things that can give it away.

[Cynthia Anne]

Sara, you got me to wondering on this one! Why don't one pass! Is it because of your beared! You could shave it! You don't have to beautiful to pass! I'm proof of that! Wow! May be the makeup app.????????? Hugs!

[ArleneRaquel]

Body size is my main obstacle to passing. I believe that after 50 years I finally have my makeup figured out.

[Marleena]

Not sure beyond mannerisms /walk and makeup. I know clothing for you to blend in is important. I don't think any GM will pass under close scrutiny due to facial features. Drag queen looking makeup is best for the stage only.

[AllieSF]

I think the main reason is that some people just have too strong male features that no amount of makeup can alter. The other reason is definitely wig selection and then clothes. After that it might be mannerisms, how one walks, sits and talks. Size in the overweight area, to me, can actually be a benefit because the rounder face hides a lot of male features and with the right wig and clothes, some males can definitely come close to the female look. Having smaller and cleaner eyebrows helps a lot when someone else is getting closer to the MtF CD.

[RachelOKC]

I know passing is more about behavior, gait etc but I am referring to just the appearance alone here. When people complain that they don't pass, is it just that they need to improve upon their makeup skills and their clothes/accessory selection?

I personally don't like the term passing because it implies trying to be something or someone you're not. I don't really care anymore that people know I'm a tranny - I would care if they made an issue of it. But that's their problem, not mine.

A lot of transpeople are concerned with their appearance, and fair enough - so am I. I get bothered when something doesn't seem right and this is probably no different than many other women (or men) trans or cis. You just try to fix it or just accept it. The point is, don't get hung up on it...get past it. Move on.

I don't think it's limited to makeup or clothes, it can be anything or even the whole presentation. It may not even be anything presentation related, it may just come from insecure state of mind like a low self worth or a perfectionist complex. There are absolutely stunningly feminine transwomen who quake in their boots and there are transwomen with very masculine features that are as confident as can be. I did a lot of quaking in my own boots before I realized that I didn't need to be afraid of who I was and worry about what other people think. That, more than anything else, was tremendously liberating for me.

If people don't like their appearance then they should work on it by all means. But they should be sure to work on their inner beauty too.

[Krististeph]

The makeup is probably one of the lesser aspects (except beard coverage). one of the best tips i found is for sitting and moving-- as much as possible, keep your knees close together- it makes a difference not only in how you look when you sit or stand, but also in the way that you move when changing position. Ditto for your elbows- not together, of course, but keep them close to your waist whenever you are not actively reaching for something- try it for yourself- video how you move and sit- then re-do the same motions while keeping your elbows and knees together. it actually takes a bit of concentration at first, but gets easier.

Whether or not you look like a girl is less important than how you act and feel about yourself. Just my 2 cents worth.

kristi

[susangirl]

Yes, I will agree makeup can help transform man into woman. With that said, some of us seem to have a leg up on the rest of us. Looking back through the years I have improved greatly in my ability with makeup. It's amazing how just changing the smallest amount of color or methods can greatly improve or destroy ones look. In my case I believe I only pass to around 30 or 40 percent of the people I see up close and thats ok. My face is not very femine and the the makeup can only do so much. My desire to go out as Susan in public out weighs being made as a man in womens clothing. Yes, I would love a more femine face as far as cross dressing goes but I like my face as far as being a man 95 percent of the time. I guess one might say I cross dress for sport. I love dressing in a tight pencil skirt, sweater, sheer stockings, 4 in heels and long dirty blond hair for a movie, dinner and drinks. Seeing men look my way when they hear the noise of my pumps hitting the pavement and look me up and down is so much fun. Even if they make me I still made them look. Try this, find a professional makeup artist in your area and see what they come up with. Go without any makeup on and let them create Sara. I will say the picture you use on your posts is quite femine and I wish I was so lucky. I remember seeing you post before.

[DanaR]

Maybe passing isn't a good way to look at it. I like to think blending. It doesn't matter how you act, talk or how tall you are, if you are overdressed you'll draw attention. I try to dress to the occasion; which means if I'll going to the mall, I'm not wearing a cocktail dress in the afternoon.

So how you dress, look, sound, walk, talk and a number of other things will determine how well you pass/blend. I like to blend for a couple of reasons. I like to be safe and don't like a lot of attention. When I go out I'm not looking for trouble, it's just to enjoy myself.

[Vickie_CDTV]

Passing is the totality of many things, and not being good at beauty makeup (as opposed to corrective makeup like beard cover) probably won't get one read alone (not all GGs apply their makeup perfectly either, not a slam in any way against them just an objective observation.) Having a heavy beard that is not completely covered, or worse obviously looks like one has makeup on their neck, probably would get one read.

[Ellyn]

There could be a few hints other than less than perfect makeup skills that can reveal the person to be male; such as large hands, muscular arms, wide shoulders, a bulging Adam's apple, narrow hips, a mustache or beard (an almost certain giveaway); and you can add what-ever to this list, including various masculine mannerisms, movements, gait, and gestures, and maybe even body odor, height, size and proportunes, but granted, a good coating of makeup properly applied could go a long way to achieving the desired deception.

[sara.s]

Today, I had done my makeup but with out the wig


Maybe passing isn't a good way to look at it. I like to think blending.
Yeah i agree. blending seems like a better word than passing while we are discussing appearance.


Try this, find a professional makeup artist in your area and see what they come up with. Go without any makeup on and let them create Sara.
Actually, relying on professional makeup artist for a perfect makeup is not always a great idea. In my experience, it was terrible on two occasions and I can do it much better on my own.



I will say the picture you use on your posts is quite femine and I wish I was so lucky.
What you don't know are the tons of pics that I deleted as they weren't good and the broad face that I have hidden with the wig. Even if a facial feature is manly, you can still darken it and highlight something else to draw attention there. I personally think anyone could "blend" if they put in some useful time.

[Kate T]

I'm with RachelOKC on this. Currently reading "The Lazy Crossdresser", by Charlie Anders. Once you focus on just being yourself and being a friendly, nice person, and stop being self conscious you will be surprised at how few people notice you.

Also, sorry people but I defy anyone to not be "read" if they are truly trying to interact in a normal way in society i.e. talking to sales people, ordering a coffee etc. But I'll give you the tip, I'd rather that those people say later "Yes, I served this man today and he was dressed as a lady, and he was really lovely and polite and really happy", than have them say "Was that a guy dressed as a woman? I don't know, they didn't say much. Weird hey".

[Katrina Black]

Look around women come in all shapes sizes, pretty and ugly some dress like boys some cut their hair shorter than guys ... Passing isnt how you look. its what you feel in you mind. I was told by someone once " If you feel your a girl then your a girl" simple as that .. the hard part is getting into that mindframe ... but when you do its a kick in the ass...Tina

[sara.s]

There could be a few hints other than less than perfect makeup skills that can reveal the person to be male; such as large hands, muscular arms, wide shoulders, a bulging Adam's apple, narrow hips, a mustache or beard (an almost certain giveaway); and you can add what-ever to this list, including various masculine mannerisms, movements, gait, and gestures, and maybe even body odor, height, size and proportunes, but granted, a good coating of makeup properly applied could go a long way to achieving the desired deception.
Some of these might help.
Muscular arms-> a scarf to cover arms
wide shooulders -> full sleeves works for me.
Adams apple -> contouring should fix it.
narrow hips-> padding and corset

Instead of choosing clothes that one can "blend in", if one opts for their fantasy clothing and then complain, its no use.


You don't have to beautiful to pass! I'm proof of that! Wow! May be the makeup app.????????? Hugs!
I remember having seeing one of your pics and look very good. So stop lying! :P The point I am making is about the choice of clothes and proper makeup to "blend in", not about being beautiful.

[Stephanie47]

Not passing means being six foot in stocking feet and 195 pounds! Ugh! :(

[sandra-leigh]

When people complain that they don't pass, is it just that they need to improve upon their makeup skills and their clothes/accessory selection?

No, not just those -- but what it is, I don't know.

It has been very uncommon for me not to be "read", even right after professional make-up sessions, even with nice wigs. When I'm sitting down not saying anything. From a distance. In bad light.

No matter what I have on, people glance at my face and say "Sir". And I don't mean "sometimes".

Do I have a "male face"? Shrug. I'm a bit taller than most people, so most people are looking up at me a bit, and from that angle, especially if I am tired, what I look like is my mother. Closely enough that people make mistakes when comparing our pictures (I've had to look closely at pictures sometimes too.)

[Lorileah]

Passing. Blending. Whatever. Why?

Very very few here will pass. There is a line from Gilbert and Sullivan "She may very well pass for 43 in the dusk with the light behind her". Even the best will not "Pass". It is an impossibility for all but a very few. Nature takes care of that. That is why there is forensic pathology. You spend so much time working toward what will never be that you waste time you could be enjoying yourself. I have a perfect picture of myself standing with three men. The photo shoot was at a local park and the pictures were great, until I stood next to the men. I was way taller and one was 6'2".

I say quit chasing what you won't have. You are not 5'2" 120 pounds. Your hips are narrow and your shoulders are broad. Your brow and jaw line are larger. You are not going to fool anyone into thinking you are a woman. You aren't pegged because no one is looking for you. They have other things more important than to wonder why you walk like a trucker and your hips don't sway. Which brings up another thing. The harder you try and do "things" you think a woman does the more you stand out.

Someone once said when you quit pounding your head into the wall you feel so much better. Quit hitting the wall.

[Jess Marie]

I would say the ability to pass does not come from how hard you try or how good you are at acting the part. As humans, the first thing we are inclined to notice about someone is their face. A males face and females face vary greatly. Skin is also different. Makeup won't fix a strong brow line or high cheek bones and a rigid jaw. These are things you have to try to work around. The main reason its hard to pass is because you need to make people focus on other things. A nice necklace and long wig will take the attention away, but also mascara to lengthen the lashes. To pass, you must draw attention away from the things you cannot control and towards the things you can.

[Badtranny]

Very very few here will pass.

She's right. It's a good goal but I've been working on it for two years. Long hair, shaped eyebrows, very thin for a man, small hands, no adams apple, no beard shadow, tinted eyelashes, mildly fem body, pierced ears, etc, etc.

I get read EVERYDAY. I've never met anyone that thinks I'm a real girl. I've met plenty of people who accept me and even more who don't give a damn but getting read as a transperson is painfully common.

A part time CD has a snowballs chance at "passing" as a GG. I am not the most feminine dude I've ever seen, but I'm pretty damn fem and I will never pass without FFS. Nature has stamped and certified me as a man and that's just the way it is. :-(

If it weren't for chemistry and surgery I would be stuck in gender-queer land forever.

[Jonianne]

......But I'll give you the tip, I'd rather that those people say later "Yes, I served this man today and he was dressed as a lady, and he was really lovely and polite and really happy", than have them say "Was that a guy dressed as a woman? I don't know, they didn't say much. Weird hey".

Even if you don't come close to "passing", when others interact with a transperson who is presenting as happy and joyful and kind, I believe that starts to plant the seed of change in the hearts and mind of others toward us, who would otherwise only look at us through the media's stereotypical, preconceived ideas.

[eluuzion]

If you have enough make-up and/or money... you can "fix" anything, lol.

This reminds me of this girl I dated when I lived in Dallas. She was beautiful, just like all the other chics in Dallas, lol. We had slept together many times but this one morning was the first time I actually saw her with absolutely no facial make-up. When she came out of the bathroom...it was like seeing a completely different person. Some women (fair complexion, etc.) undergo a dramatic change in appearance with make-up compared to others.

It was not a negative event...it was just an amazing one. That convinced me that make-up can do incredible things in the hands of a "professional", lol. Hollywood actors prove that.

So right now I sort of lean toward the belief that aside from a few cases...a make-up "professional" could probably make all of look pretty darn good. Well...at least in dim light at 2am closing time at a bar...heehee.

:love:

[noeleena]

Hi,

( Passing ) or blending in . has little meaning for myself , yet im a woman , for my self as iv been told by quite a few women friends , we all come in different shapes & size's & how we look or are seen by others
.
So how one would say that woman pass's yet another woman may not yet both are women ,iv seen a few women walk like men & others look like men in many ways,

For myself im very masculine looking facial wise. so makes little difference what i wear or have make up on or if i wore a wig . no make up no wig just what you see in my pic, yet im accepted just like any other woman is .

As to make up i can do pretty good & i have had it done by two very good reps & iv had others have thiers done as well
so i know what im doing. i just know my face is not worth it in fact our grandaughter has most of mine ,
if you call lippy & eyebrow liner my make up thats it pretty much every day & may be an evening out eye shadow maskra allmost a waist of time.

I meet many 100's of people & high ups & we talk as normal people so its not an issue for myself , most of my women freinds & i know them very well hardly have make up on at all. so some do when we have a big get together going on .

so really for my self its about being accepted for who you are & how you are. tho being a woman may be a bit different.

...noeleena...

[Claire Cook]

Look around women come in all shapes sizes, pretty and ugly some dress like boys some cut their hair shorter than guys ... Passing isnt how you look. its what you feel in you mind. I was told by someone once " If you feel your a girl then your a girl" simple as that .. the hard part is getting into that mindframe ... but when you do its a kick in the ass...Tina


Passing. Blending. Whatever. Why? Very very few here will pass. T
Someone once said when you quit pounding your head into the wall you feel so much better. Quit hitting the wall.


She's right. It's a good goal but I've been working on it for two years. Long hair, shaped eyebrows, very thin for a man, small hands, no adams apple, no beard shadow, tinted eyelashes, mildly fem body, pierced ears, etc, etc.

I get read EVERYDAY. I've never met anyone that thinks I'm a real girl. I've met plenty of people who accept me and even more who don't give a damn but getting read as a transperson is painfully common.

A part time CD has a snowballs chance at "passing" as a GG. I am not the most feminine dude I've ever seen, but I'm pretty damn fem and I will never pass without FFS. Nature has stamped and certified me as a man and that's just the way it is. :-(

If it weren't for chemistry and surgery I would be stuck in gender-queer land forever.

Katrina, Lori and BT have hit it on the head for me. I'll but there are very few, if any, of us who at some point haven't been read. Sure, I get treated as female some of the time, but most of the time I'm treated as someone who is comfortable with who I am and what I am wearing. If I'm read as a guy who presents well wearing women's clothes, then that's all I ask. "Passing" should be a state of mind -- the confidence that "Yes, we can do it", and that comes from the inside. :battingeyelashes:

I think the sooner we stop worrying about passing and get comfortable with ourselves, the better we will be. Frankly, it's really a rush to be called "sir", and then get complements on my earrings, or top, or hair (all of which have happened.) That being said, I do try to look the best I can (what girl doesn't?) and always try to dress to fit in. And that seems to work.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Generally speaking you do the best you can....and very few people can manage the combination of size/look/clothes/manner required to blend with people and be taken as female wherever you go..

and you are much more likely to be successful at not caring about whether you pass/blend than you are to actually pass/blend..

Like yourself and enjoy how you look, that's the ticket to going out en femme

[cassandra54]

passing is a tricky at best. a lot of it comes from your mind. the more you dress the more you feel comfortable about looking like a woman. blending is also important. dressing like every other woman in an age appropriate manner goes a long way. here's a few thoughts i have.

1. i am 5-9, 195, wear medium or size 10 bottoms, XL or 18 tops, size 36d, 38c bra with forms and size 10 women's shoes. i have a face that is not really masculine or feminine. my beard is not really heavy, no back hair, light chest hair, so it is easy to keep shaved. just because of knowing this i feel much better about passing or blending in. i can also buy and wear clothes that mot women would wear.
2. on the other hand, if you're over 6' have really muscular arms, an adam's apple a really masculine face with a heavy beard and have size 12 men's feet, you'r going to have a hard time blending or passing. just your size alone will call out attention to you and if you wear 5 inch heels and a red leather miniskirt to Wal Mart it's going to be even harder.
3. next time i go out in public, i am going to try it wearing only lipstick and mascara and maybe some eye shadow. i think if you can pass, you should be able to do it without foundation, concealer and so on. during the week i do this look simply because it's quicker.
4. hair does not have to be perfect. i wear a long wig and sometimes a short one. the short one i don't style. i just comb it. the long one gets styled sometimes with a curling iron or maybe a ponytail. but it's not perfect looking. the last wig i got had instructions that said if you try to make it look perfect, it looks "wiggy"
5. walk is important too. there is this biomotion thing online, where you can asses and improve your walk.
6. watch how other women walk and act in public. and imitate them.

this is what i wore the first time i went out in public.

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6204/6108252084_9920187125.jpg

i also wore this outfit and a man came behind me at Wal Mart and said, "are you in line maam?". that made my day.

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6043/6271959045_1af5129f05.jpg

that's all i have.

[adrienner99]

The fact of life is that most of us are never going to pass. However, I don't believe it's about makeup or clothes. Go to your local grocery store and see how many women lack makeup and wear t-shirts blue jeans and sneakers...but there is no doubt they are female.

Hide your beard as best you can. Don't overdress or overdo makeup. Pluck your eyebrows. Speak softly. Lose weight. Watch how women walk. Wear clothes that fit.

BTW, I've done all this and still don't pass. But I go out anyway, usually without overt comments...

[Karren H]

Passing is so over rated!! If you look good and feel good who cares what anyone else thinks!

[Beth Mays]

Passing is so over rated!!

Says the hottie with the cute red hair

[Julia_in_Pa]

Passing for TS and IS women that are full time is sometimes a life or death situation.

I'm not just speaking of how your face is proportioned but how your overall presentation is.

This is so important that your entire daily life depends on it.

Going to a job interview is a spot on example.

Are you trying to "fool" them into thinking your a GG?

No, your convincing them into not thinking twice that you are nothing more and nothing less than a woman.

Why do you think that full time TS/IS women suffer from a unemployment rate that's three times higher than the national average?

Your mannerisms, movements, voice and overall manner of dress add up to whether or not you are read as something you are not.

Passing to the full time person is so important that one's life is on the line.

You don't have to look like a hollywood actress really all you have to do is be the female you and therein lies the work of your lifetime.



Julia

[PretzelGirl]

I'm with RachelOKC on this. Currently reading "The Lazy Crossdresser", by Charlie Anders. Once you focus on just being yourself and being a friendly, nice person, and stop being self conscious you will be surprised at how few people notice you.

One more vote for the blending type of attitude. Sometimes I think we try so hard that we draw attention instead of diverting it. People notice others who seem out of place or who are trying to draw attention. Just be yourself and have fun and the attention level goes way down naturally.


Passing is so over rated!! If you look good and feel good who cares what anyone else thinks!

Amen (mainly the feel good, I know I don't look good)!

[Badtranny]

You don't have to look like a hollywood actress really all you have to do is be the female you and therein lies the work of your lifetime.

Work of your lifetime indeed. When friends ask me how I feel about what I'm doing, I tell them that I feel like a walking science experiment. The full timers have an inordinate advantage, though here's another wrinkle. I have met fully transitioned and post op TS women who "pass" just fine and nobody gives them a second look, but I read them within seconds of meeting them. Yikes, that's scary.

Back to the OP's question, I think most have agreed that make-up ain't the issue. The goal is much greater than the sum of its parts. The make-up is important, so are the clothes, as is the voice and movement, but none of it works unless it all comes as naturally as being human. I believe truly passing requires truly being. When it gets right down to it, YOU are not being read, it's your act that is being read and a more convincing act isn't the answer. You have to get past the act and get to the being.

[Lorileah]

That convinced me that make-up can do incredible things in the hands of a "professional", lol. Hollywood actors prove that.



and even then it is questionable. http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2494279680/tt1826951. Can you the GM's in this picture? Also can you see the reason most males will never pass? (Really bad illustration since the whole premise of the show is to show TG's in a bad light)

[Jilmac]

I consider passing more a state of mind than appearance, For many years I have observed GGs in their habits, mannerisms, clothing and accessories, hair styles and makeup, and in my opinion, the girls we are trying to emulate are the girls of our dreams. I have gone to various events, (shopping, movies, restaurants) with little or no makeup and have passed easily. For me it's a matter of just blending in with the great majority of GGs.

At the shopping malls and restaurants the majority are wearing jeans with either sweaters, sweat shirts, or plain tops. At the movies it really doesn't matter how a person is dressed or whether she's wearing makeup because it's too dark to see anyway. At public venues like parks, festivals, sports, or just walking down the street, most people don't even give you a second glance unless you're dressed in something that shouts "hey look at me". I usually dress for the surroundings or the occasion so I can blend in with the GGs, and for me that's passing.

[ReineD]

Look around women come in all shapes sizes, pretty and ugly some dress like boys some cut their hair shorter than guys ... Passing isnt how you look. its what you feel in you mind. I was told by someone once " If you feel your a girl then your a girl" simple as that .. the hard part is getting into that mindframe ... but when you do its a kick in the ass...Tina

I agree that when you feel you're a girl, then you're a girl. :) But unfortunately the others around you won't see you that way.

Also it's true that women come in all shapes and sizes, but how do we know they are women and not men if they have short hair and no makeup?

It is the subtle differences between male and female facial features: the distance between various points on the face, for example between the nose and the upper lip, facial width, chin, cheekbones, the profile (that's a very telling sign because it reveals the brow bone), the neck width, the space between the eye and the eyebrow, etc. Our brains compute all of these cues together, all the while making subconscious comparisons to the GGs in the room.

There aren't many CDers who will appear as a GG when under close scrutiny, especially when they're actively interacting with someone. This is why TSs have FFS.

[StarrOfDelite]

and even then it is questionable. http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2494279680/tt1826951. Can you the GM's in this picture? Also can you see the reason most males will never pass? (Really bad illustration since the whole premise of the show is to show TG's in a bad light)

You mean the two who are built like NFl linebackers? LOL!

I agree that all most of us can do is blend and appear more or less unnoticeable, and that the practitioner's skill as a makeup artist is only part of the totality. Clothing, posture, walking, talking, mannerisms, and body shape are all important. It takes some work to achieve even the level of appearing womanly enough to blend: A person has to observe, analyze, study, practice, improvise and adapt.

I think that it actually may be harder for some crossdressers who loves women and women's clothes to "Pass" because they have an idealized picture of women which may not fit with present day reality. If a CD wants to get dressed up to the Nines in a nice dress, three inch or higher heels, and an 'evening out' hair style just to go to the local mall to promenade and window-shop then she is going to attract notice because she is overdressed, and, as has been pointed out, once a CD attracts notice she is almost certain to be made.

I wear androgynous, casual clothes and flat/wedge shoes because I don't get any great satisfaction from the clothing per se. I don't like to wear a dress just because it's a dress any more than the average genetic woman does. I try to avoid masculine body language, so I stand up straight, keep my head up, take small steps, look more or less straight ahead, don't let my gaze swivel around, use limited hand gestures, and those things help until I open my mouth and try to cast my voice which is very difficult.

Also, I've said this before, so apologize for being repetitive, but it's a lot easier to get by in the big city than a small town. In New York, especially Manhattan and the Yuppified parts of Brooklyn, people try not to stare at other people on the street because it's considered to be gauche and impolite. In the Malls of Mid-America/east coast/west coast/South people watching is a Sport.

[sara.s]

Passing for TS and IS women that are full time is sometimes a life or death situation.

Yeah I agree with you. But not only TS/IS, even CD'ers too. All is fine when you are at the mall, store, but it gets quite scary at night like at the parking. Sometimes, its scary even in guy mode, in gal mode you are much more vulnerable. Also one fulltime TS (but no FFS) on my facebook is very depressed that people read her and ask her if she is CD etc, but from her pics I can see her clothing choices doesn't complement her and her face isn't made up well enough.

Also, those who say "blending in"/passing is overrated, can you honestly say that you had the same mindset until after you got out dressed out first few times? No matter what everyone's opinion about passing, there are many first time CD'ers who would "only" get out if they can achieve some passable look. Their outlook on passing will change over time as they get out more often but initially for the first few times, passing is what they care about. Also why would you all pick your best passable pic for your avatar instead of the non passable ones...what does that indicate?

[StarrOfDelite]

Reine,

Have you ever taken any of those Female or ******* quizzes? I always get about 50% right, incorrectly guessing a woman is a man as often as guessing a man is a woman. There are a lot of them out there, and these are links to the first 2 hits on Google search. I got 8 of 12 on the first link, but only 4 of 12 on the second.

Link: www2.b3ta.com/femaleorshemale3/

Link: http://hemaleorshemale.com/score.php

[DanaR]

When you are part of the TG community, you probably are more aware of key characteristics between the genders. Many people from the general public just don't notice this. I think that my wife notices more than I do when we encounter someone from the TG community that is dressed.

[Eryn]

I think that "passing" has a wide range of meaning. For some, it means convincing people of one's femininity in extended close range conversation. For others the definition is more relaxed, such as being taken for female in brief conversations with waiters or SAs or even simply walking past a stranger on the sidewalk.

I think that the foundation of "passing" is in the initial visual cues that one transmits. When meeting a stranger, people make a quick subconscious evaluation of the person they are meeting and make decision on how they will deal with that person. If the person is perceived as female they will follow one set of rules, if male, another set will come into play. Unless they are actively engaging in the game of "spot the CDer" observers will pay attention to the easiest-to-observe cues and will make their male/female decision as soon as they can. They will stick to this decision unless they are given a strong reason to deviate from it.

So, what are the strongest cues? For men, facial hair is definitely the strongest cue and an observer will accept a bearded person as male as long as there aren't a lot of contradictory cues. Of course, most men shave so lack of facial hair is not an opposite cue. Probably the strongest feminine cue is the presence of breasts and use of makeup/nail polish but, like beards, the lack of these do not necessarily indicate that one is male.

So, we have Beard=Male, Breasts/Makeup/Nail polish=Female

Beyond that, clothes do indeed make the man, or woman. If one wears clothes that are within the range of the observer's expectations for a particular gender the observer might well make their male/female decision while you are still some distance away.

Unless you give the observer a really good reason to consider further cues, they will stick with their initial evaluation even in the presence of minor opposite cues. Most women exhibit a minor masculine trait or two and don't worry about it at all.

The other thing on our side is doubt and politeness. While someone may suspect that I'm not the gender I am presenting, they cannot be absolutely certain of it. I might well be a GG who happens to be handicapped with excessive height and deep voice. It would be embarrassing and likely insulting to make a gender error, so most people will go with the obvious cues to avoid that embarrassment.

I used to worry a lot more about "passing" when I was out, but now that I have a little experience I realize that there is no way that I can pass under all circumstances. I just have to enjoy doing what I am capable of. As long as I avoid dangerous situation (ie: drunks) the worst that can happen is that I give somebody an interesting story to relate to their friends later. Even that isn't all bad because the more we CDers are seen just doing normal things the more we will be accepted.

[Lorileah]

I got 8 of 12 on the first link, but only 4 of 12 on the second.

First link didn't work and I missed 2 on the second but as someone above said we are more aware of miniscule things. But also realize that these are stills and they are posed in many cases. You can line things up to look more or less female.

Also (although I was surprised about this quiz) usually the quizzes are skewed toward ethnic features. Asians often have a more gender neutral body and face. Euro-centric faces and Afrocentric faces have a more noticeable variance. Also many times these quizzes feature "********" who have had a lot of surgery done.

[Eryn]

First link didn't work and I missed 2 on the second but as someone

I missed four on the second, scoring 75%. Now, this is the score of someone who is acutely gender-aware, who has firm knowledge that some of those dozen pictures depicted males, and who was not in danger of suffering embarassment by insulting the person being observed.

Also telling is the fact that half of my errors were in thinking that GGs were male.

Now, if these were video clips where we could see the person move, see their relative stature, and hear their voice would passing be more difficult?

[sandra-leigh]

Also, those who say "blending in"/passing is overrated, can you honestly say that you had the same mindset until after you got out dressed out first few times?

I can say that, but my experiences are not representative.

I went out dressed less than 3 weeks after realizing I was a cross-dresser; I knew absolutely that I did not look female, and I didn't care. My life up to then had featured a fair number of yelled or muttered insults, incidents of people judging me based upon my appearance, so I was distinctly in a mood of "F-You, I'm going to wear what I want."

Concerns I had about "passing" (in the sense of other people interpreting me as female) first arrived notably later, during a phase I went through of it being important to me to express that I had some sexuality.

My attitude is different still now that I am full time TG (not TS). I don't need to "pass" (even while wearing an obvious dress) to be accepted / tolerated by the great majority of people here, but it does get disappointing to hear "Sir" all the time.


Also why would you all pick your best passable pic for your avatar instead of the non passable ones...what does that indicate?

I rather thought my avatar makes my nose look fat ??

I don't take many pictures at all: I just live my life.

[ReineD]

Reine,

Have you ever taken any of those Female or ******* quizzes?

There are too many influencing and potentially misleading cues in the links you posted, Starr, such as pose, makeup, angle shots. Also, the facial pictures are very small. Would you be able to tell if you saw these people in person?

The statement I made earlier describes studies done using strict controls and eliminating variables, so as to measure people's abilities to discern gender based on pure facial features without being influenced by other cues such as makeup, pose, hair, etc.

If the brain can discern differences between male and female faces based strictly on features and the distance between various facial points, you can well imagine how accurately it can compute gender when interacting with someone in person, where within one minute you can see the face in dozens of different angles and with all the facial expressions (there are also studies that reveal differences between male and female facial expressions), together with body language, the voice, and the physiognomy of the rest of the body. Also, our brains compute the differences between the person we are interacting with and the other people nearby. A CDer has a much better chance of being taken as a GG if he is in a room alone or with other men, than if there are other GGs nearby.

I don't have access to an academic library but here are a few studies found in Google Scholar, even if only the abstracts. I'm sure you would find hundreds of similar studies if you were to peruse the plethora of academic journals.

http://www.perceptionweb.com/abstract.cgi?id=p220131

http://www.perceptionweb.com/abstract.cgi?id=p220829

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8474841

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16916145

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18248142

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278262602000167

And even babies can tell the difference:
http://www.perceptionweb.com/abstract.cgi?id=p3331

This site gives specifics about the differences between male and female faces, although the focus of the article is beauty:
http://www.beautyanalysis.com/mba_facevariationsbysex_page.htm

EDIT
OMG ... I completed the tests on both the links you posted. I got two wrong in the first link, and I got 100% correct in the second test. I hang out here way too much. :p

[Beth Mays]

My wife has a saying that she used on me often:
"You can put a turd in a candy box, but it still is a turd"

that was her way of saying no matter what a man wears he is still and always will be a male.


Beth

[Lorileah]

Also, those who say "blending in"/passing is overrated, can you honestly say that you had the same mindset until after you got out dressed out first few times?

Yep, I don't try and pretend to BE a woman. I don't try and convince anyone I am a woman. Why would I? I don't try and pretend to be a man either...I would really suck at that.

No matter what everyone's opinion about passing, there are many first time CD'ers who would "only" get out if they can achieve some passable look. And I hope to dispel the fact that they will never go out because they are afraid to be "outed". It is just clothing as I have said before. No magic


Also why would you all pick your best passable pic for your avatar instead of the non passable ones...what does that indicate?

Have you looked at avatars? Some don't pass at all and don't even try. And you always choose your best picture to show, you did it in your yearbook, you did it at your wedding, you do it on your Christmas cards. I don't think that is a really good indicator. Would you choose some photo you didn't like for you business ad? BTW there are many photos here and other places on the net that I don't think I pass at all.

[Annie D]

It all depends. If you are a "younger" cd, makeup may constitute a bigger percentage of whether you pass or not. There are so many things that go in to passing or not. I think body type is the biggest indicator. As a person in my 60's, without being too arrogant, I think that I look alot better dressed casually than the GG's my age but at over 6' tall and over 200 lbs. I think that my body build is a giveaway. Additionally, women who are close to my size and age do very little to make themselves look as feminine as I try to do; so perhaps the fact that I do apply makeup is my giveaway. I guess you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[AllieSF]

Sara, count me in as someone who never waited to "pass better" before going out. I truly understand that the newbie to going out may feel that way. I think what some of us who go out a lot are trying to say is that you do not have to be perfect and almost pass to be able to go out regularly and enjoy yourself. We are not talking down to anyone nor trying to force anyone to go out. We are just trying to say that too much preparations and special conditions can delay a most enjoyable experience and maybe limit someone who truly does want to go out. I always say go when you are ready, but don't work on being ready all your life so that you never go out. In that situation it is just a very weak excuse in my eyes, if one truly does want to go out.

I do not understand your question about how we select our avatar pic. I have posted in the past and will probably post in the future my facial pics in other people's threads, but I do not want to post a facial pic in my avatar for my own reasons. Posting a pic to me is a very different situation than going out dressed en femme to meet and interface with the real world. I sure the hell do not want to share with others my bad pics, unless it is a funny one that we all can laugh at. Why would anyone want to do that except to maybe make a specific point about a specific topic?

[sara.s]

Sara, count me in as someone who never waited to "pass better" before going out. I truly understand that the newbie to going out may feel that way. I think what some of us who go out a lot are trying to say is that you do not have to be perfect and almost pass to be able to go out regularly and enjoy yourself. We are not talking down to anyone nor trying to force anyone to go out. We are just trying to say that too much preparations and special conditions can delay a most enjoyable experience and maybe limit someone who truly does want to go out. I always say go when you are ready, but don't work on being ready all your life so that you never go out. In that situation it is just a very weak excuse in my eyes, if one truly does want to go out.

Yeah, I totally agree with you.



I do not understand your question about how we select our avatar pic.
:hmph: I was just trying to use an analogy.

[kimdl93]

Look around women come in all shapes sizes, pretty and ugly some dress like boys some cut their hair shorter than guys ... Passing isnt how you look. its what you feel in you mind. I was told by someone once " If you feel your a girl then your a girl" simple as that .. the hard part is getting into that mindframe ... but when you do its a kick in the ass...Tina

I don't expect to "pass". That is I don't expect to fool anyone into believing that I am a genetic female. I do hope to blend in sufficiently, at least at some distance, so that I can go about my daily activities without disruption. I can't honestly say what people are thinking or saying among themselves when they see me - cause I"m not paying attention!

[Joanna41]

For me...passing is the whole package. Nails, hair, clothes, mannerisms and so forth. However the looks part of it is very important to me so I work on that the most. I know I will never become the perfect impersonator, but I keep trying to improve each time I dress in full enfemm. I never dress any other way.

Joanna

[gender_blender]

Makeup's general use is to enhance your natural appearance, but it won't make one shorter, thinner, less broad in the shoulders, less hairy, or more feminine in your mannerisms. Case in point, I don't wear much makeup, but pass just fine. But too much makeup makes one look clown-like and unexperienced in applying appropriate amounts, which can be a red flag.